[03:39] <mobi-sheep> Ops -- Care to test me for port 8001? 
[03:40] <tsimpson> mobi-sheep: read the topic in #ubuntu-read-topic
[03:40] <mobi-sheep> test me
[03:40] <mobi-sheep> tsimpson: I did.  I'm using port 8001.  Yet I get #read topic message.
[03:41] <tsimpson> the test is automated, read the topic for instructions
[03:41] <mobi-sheep> tsimpson: Yeah.  I use the command in wrong channel. ;o
[03:41] <tsimpson> there you go
[03:42] <mobi-sheep> tsimpson: Got in.  Thanks. :O
[03:42] <tsimpson> no problem
[03:42] <tsimpson> you can part this channel and go about your business in #ubuntu now
[03:45]  * genii sips
[04:21] <genii> Bah. I just saw in -server someone posted a factoid about ubuntu from the #debian bot which seems somewhat derogatory of ubuntu.
[04:22] <genii> Sorry, ranting
[04:22] <tritium> genii: what does it say?
[04:22] <genii> Hangone I'll pastebin it
[04:23] <tritium> ok
[04:24] <genii> http://paste.ubuntu.com/157656/
[04:25] <genii> "even if the channel happens to be less helpful"   etc
[04:26] <Flannel> Eh
[04:26] <tritium> genii: how rude
[04:26] <Flannel> Its certainly rude.  But Ubuntu is offtopic in #debian
[04:27] <genii> Anyhow, it just bigged me a bit, I thought they could have been a bit more civil, etc
[04:28] <genii> *bugged
[04:28] <tritium> genii: indeed
[04:30] <jdong> that's NOT the staement that offended me though....
[04:30] <jdong> "and it is unlikely to live up to Debian's standards "
[04:30] <jdong> now THAT is wtf.
[04:31] <genii> Hehe
[04:31] <tritium> Success breeds jealousy, which results in comments like that.
[04:31] <jdong> I'm a bit disappointed Debian feels that way about Ubuntu
[04:32] <jdong> A simple "We are Debian, not Ubuntu. We only support Debian" would've sufficed.
[04:32] <jdong> there's no need whatsoever to diss Ubuntu in the process
[04:32] <genii> jdong: That was my take on it
[04:33] <genii> They make it look like Ubuntu is some bastardized offspring, etc
[04:34] <jdong> yeah with the implication that it's some horrific hackjob that's defective by design
[04:35] <genii> jdong: I took the "unlikely to live up to Debian's standards" part to mean maybe something like the icewasel vs firefox  issue
[04:35] <genii> *iceweasel
[04:35] <jdong> genii: I took it to mean packaging quality
[04:36] <Flannel> DFSG
[04:36] <genii> Flannel: ?
[04:36] <jdong> the DFSG has little to do with support questions IMO
[04:36] <Flannel> Debian Free Software Guidelines
[04:36] <genii> Ah
[04:36] <jdong> in the context of a support channel, saying that it doesn't live up to Debian implies that it's so broken it's unsupportable.
[04:36] <Flannel> jdong: True, but those would be standards that we wouldn't do whatever with
[04:36] <Flannel> jdong: They don't support code they can't see? ;)
[04:37] <jdong> lol they can see it :)
[04:37] <jdong> they just can't do everything they want with it
[04:44] <genii> Anyhow, maybe I should have ranted in -offtopic on it, in hindsight, and not here. Apologies
[04:48] <Flannel> Nah, then you'd just get people riled up about it
[04:48] <Flannel> and then there'd be people trolling #debian, etc
[04:48] <Flannel> not a good situation
[04:49] <genii> Yeah probably. I'm just reading from http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/debian now about how some Debian bugs get fixed by Ubuntu devs and then patches sent back upstream. I wondered how many of those there are actually.
[04:54] <Flannel> There's a lot of back and forth.  It's a healthy relationship, and the people who do the work try and keep it as such.  Its just the users who try and build walls, etc.
[04:57]  * genii sighs and goes back to preparing more coffee
[05:22] <elky> a suggestion for a revision of o4o:
[05:22] <elky> Some things are inappropriate for ubottu. Some topics are controversial and usually end in flame wars. War, race, religion, politics, gender, sexuality, drugs, questionably legal activities and suicide regularly upset people. Please be aware of this and drop the discussion if you are asked. Please discuss these rules themselves only in #ubuntu-ops. Microsoft software is discussed in ##windows. Apple software in ##mac. Please adhere to Freenode 
[05:22] <elky> Policy for all discussions.
[05:22] <elky> may need more trimming, it seems.
[05:23] <bazhang> the part about please drop if asked is very welcome
[05:24] <elky> Some things are inappropriate for ubottu. Some topics are controversial and often end in flame wars. War, race, religion, politics, gender, sexuality, drugs, questionably legal activities and suicide regularly upset people. Please be aware and drop a discussion if you are asked. Please discuss these rules themselves only in #ubuntu-ops. Microsoft software is discussed in ##windows. Apple software in ##mac. Please adhere to Freenode Policy.
[05:24] <elky> that fits better
[05:25] <bazhang> s/questionably/questionable/
[05:26] <elky> Some things are inappropriate for ubottu. Some topics are controversial and often end in flame wars. War, race, religion, politics, gender, sexuality, drugs, potentially illegal activities and suicide regularly upset people. Please be aware and drop a discussion if you are asked. Please discuss these rules themselves only in #ubuntu-ops. Microsoft software is discussed in ##windows. Apple software in ##mac. Please adhere to Freenode Policy.
[05:27] <genii> I don't understand the ubottu specific thing. Can't o4o be called anywhere?
[05:27] <elky> it can be, i just called it in PM with him
[05:28] <elky> i've got no idea the syntax for $this_channel though
[05:28] <genii> Ah, OK
[05:28] <elky> one more revision to come...
[05:30] <elky> Some things are inappropriate for ubottu. Some topics are controversial and often end in fighting. War, race, religion, politics, gender, sexuality, drugs, potentially illegal activities and suicide regularly upset people. Please be aware and drop a discussion if you are asked. Please discuss these rules themselves only in #ubuntu-ops. Microsoft software is discussed in ##windows. Apple software in ##mac. Please always adhere to Freenode Policy.
[05:32] <genii> Should just replace "ubottu" with "discussion" and then you don't need any $this_channel   part..... ;)
[05:32] <Flannel> HiBuddy is onjoin spam it seems
[05:32] <Flannel> or, some sort of spam
[05:34] <elky> genii, no, that would get a kneejerk of 'ubuntu is telling me i cant discuss $thing anywhere'
[05:35] <elky> genii, even saying 'ubuntu' instead of '#ubuntu' ends badly.
[05:35] <genii> elky: Hm, good point.
[05:35] <elky> since it would forbid -women etc
[05:37] <elky> o4o has always been an intensely delicate balancing act
[05:51] <elky> tsimpson, around?
[05:52] <tsimpson> yep
[05:52] <elky> tsimpson, what's the syntax for $channel_name
[05:52] <tsimpson> $chan
[05:52] <elky> ta
[05:52] <tsimpson> :)
[05:52] <elky> hrm, as opposed to <reply> that really is curious
[05:53] <tsimpson> huh?
[05:55]  * Flannel waits for HiBuddy to ride the k-train
[05:55] <elky> such a 'blah is <reply> blahdiblah blah blah
[05:55] <tsimpson> the instance of $chan in the factoid will be replaced with the channel the factoid is called in, you can still use <reply>
[05:55] <elky> !no, o4o is <reply> Some things are inappropriate for $chan. Some topics are controversial and often end in fighting. War, race, religion, politics, gender, sexuality, drugs, potentially illegal activities and suicide regularly upset people. Please be aware and drop a discussion if you are asked. Please discuss these rules themselves only in #ubuntu-ops. Microsoft software is discussed in ##windows. Apple software in ##mac. Please always adhere
[05:55] <elky>  to Freenode Policy.
[05:55] <tsimpson> that's why ubottu says " Some things are inappropriate for ubottu." in /msg, but " Some things are inappropriate for #ubuntu-ops." in here
[05:55] <elky> i bet that's cut off :(
[05:56] <elky> tsimpson, i know that. but <reply> is different syntax to $chan
[05:56] <Flannel> elky: Your line was cut off "to freenode policy." was on its own
[05:56] <elky> note the <> as opposed to $
[05:56] <elky> Flannel, i know
[05:56] <Flannel> elky: One is a command, the other is a variable.
[05:56] <tsimpson> they are different things, plus, I didn't write it ;)
[05:56] <elky> you know, i never thought of it that way.
[05:57] <tsimpson> it follows the supybot syntax though
[05:57] <tsimpson> like in the original Factoid plugin I think
[05:57] <elky> it cuts off worse in pm... wth
[05:58] <elky> can someone with irssi try it, you might have better limits
[05:58] <Flannel> Superior IRC client, eh? ;)
[05:58] <elky> no, differential coding
[05:58] <Flannel> It's ok.  You can just admit irssi is superior
[05:58] <elky> i dont consider anything i have to apologise for spamming /win4 etc into a channel as superior
[05:59] <elky> now, could you try please
[05:59] <elky> i'm going to be late for the release party i'm holding. faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar out
[05:59] <Flannel> !o4o
[06:00] <Flannel> Better, but still no joy
[06:00] <Flannel> !no, o4o is <reply> Some things are inappropriate for $chan. Some topics are controversial and often end in fighting. War, race, religion, politics, gender, sexuality, drugs, potentially illegal activities and suicide regularly upset people. Please be aware and drop a discussion if you are asked. Please discuss these rules themselves only in #ubuntu-ops. Microsoft software is discussed in ##windows. Apple software in ##mac. Please always adhere
[06:00] <Flannel> !o4o
[06:00] <Flannel> right, queries are better for irssi.
[06:00] <tsimpson> it's too long, 512bytes is the max for an IRC message, including "your@hostmask PRIVMSG #chan :msg"
[06:01] <Flannel> Looks like it'll just have to be made shorter.
[06:02] <elky> !no, o4o is <reply> Some things are inappropriate for $chan. Some topics are controversial and often end in fighting. War, race, religion, politics, gender, sexuality, drugs, potentially illegal activities and suicide regularly upset people. Please be aware and drop a discussion if you are asked. Please discuss these rules themselves only in #ubuntu-ops. Discuss Microsoft in ##windows and Apple in ##mac. Please always adhere to Freenode Policy.
[06:02] <elky> YAY!
[06:03] <elky> now, i really gotta go
[06:07] <tonyyarusso> @login
[06:08] <tonyyarusso> !freenode policy is <reply>In addition to Ubuntu IRC !guidelines, there are some policies that govern the Freenode network as a whole.  These can be found at http://freenode.net/policy.shtml
[06:09] <SJr> The ubottu bot is out of date on the !jaunty entry.
[06:10] <tonyyarusso> !jaunty
[06:10] <tonyyarusso> SJr: the release notes link you mean?
[06:11] <SJr> Yeah
[06:11] <tonyyarusso> !jaunty ~= /810/904/
[06:11] <tonyyarusso> !jaunty
[06:11] <tonyyarusso> SJr: Thanks.
[06:11] <SJr> wow 
[06:11] <SJr> Your welcome
[06:11] <SJr> talk to you later
[07:04] <genii> gnite
[09:15] <Myrtti> bah, rain
[09:40] <topyli> jackjohnson finally speaks, albeit through lazermouse. *now* he wants me to pay attention
[09:47] <Myrtti> feel free to get him here if you want
[09:47] <bazhang> heh
[09:49] <topyli> Myrtti: all yours, i told him
[09:50] <topyli> of course, he now fell silent
[09:51] <Myrtti> topyli: it's you who should do the talking to him here ;-)
[09:51] <bazhang> he tried
[09:51] <bazhang> *crickets*
[09:52] <bazhang> jackjohnson, how may we help you
[09:52] <jackjohnson> for how long will i be banned from ubuntu-offtopic? i will idle until i get an answer
[09:52] <bazhang> jackjohnson, that is not the way it works
[09:52] <Myrtti> bazhang++
[09:53] <bazhang> jackjohnson, why were you banned there
[09:56] <Myrtti> jackjohnson: channels are meant for two way conversation. This channel is no exception. if you cannot produce answers to our questions, you'll be removed from here and bans remain.
[09:59] <bazhang> !idle | jackjohnson 
[10:00] <Myrtti> jackjohnson: welcome back with replies and some of that twoway conversation
[10:04] <topyli> *sigh*
[10:05] <Myrtti> righto, time to get dressed and head out back to London
[10:07] <Flannel> ubottu, she is dead.
[10:07] <Flannel> we ping jussi01, right?
[10:08] <Flannel> Or... someone on council?
[10:08] <Flannel> That also knows the secretive secret to reboot it.
[10:08]  * Flannel stops rambling.
[10:35] <BUGabundo> good morning
[10:35] <jpds> Known issue.
[10:35] <BUGabundo> ububot is dead?
[10:40] <BUGabundo> and there goes another one
[10:40] <jpds> Yeah, made some changes to scripts and did something slightly wrong, back soon.
[10:42] <Flannel> jpds: You made them sentient and now they're mounting an uprising?
[10:43] <BUGabundo> aha
[10:43] <jpds> Flannel: No, made changes to their database backup scripts; and purged the DB.
[13:04] <jackjohnson> kick me
[13:07] <Seeker`> DBO elky Pricey Myrtti Mez mneptok Pricey: Anyone care to oblige? 
[13:09] <Seeker`> jussi01: tonyyarusso ^
[13:33] <jussi01> no, not yet.
[13:33] <jussi01> jackjohnson: why would we want to do that?
 for how long will i be banned from ubuntu-offtopic? i will idle until i get an answer
[13:34] <bazhang> this is the 3rd time he has tried this.
[13:34] <jussi01> jackjohnson: its simple really, Ill remove you if you dont answer, due to channel policy.
[13:34] <jussi01> bazhang: I have read, got it ;)
[13:35] <bazhang> jussi01, okay :)
[13:38] <elky> jackjohnson, we do not bow to blackmail. trying to blackmail is an automatic extention of a ban. so the answer is, how long do you want to be banned for?
[13:38] <jussi01> jackjohnson: ok, your ban will last as long as it lasts there is no set time, However if you decide to change your attitude you may come back and explain that change, and we will then consider it.
[13:39] <jussi01> jackjohnson: if you do not answer, I will remove you from this channel once again.
[13:42] <bazhang> w00t
[13:51] <bazhang> @login
[14:11] <panarchy> Greetings to all
[14:11] <bazhang> Panarchy, how may we help you
[14:11] <Panarchy> Requesting release of ban from the #ubuntu channel.
[14:11] <jussi01> elky: you around?
[14:11] <elky> jussi01, yes
[14:12] <Panarchy> Thanks in advance guys!
[14:13] <Panarchy> Sorry to sound impatient, but would it be at all possible for my ban on the #ubuntu channel to be relinquished? I've been banned for quite a few months now, and would really appreciate being invited back to the channel.
[14:15] <elky> Panarchy, what assurance do we have you will not behave like you did before?
[14:16] <Panarchy> Well I've now started work (full-time). I've done complete research into becoming an official ubuntu packager, and have been working on improving myself entirely.
[14:16] <Panarchy> :B
[14:16] <Panarchy> B:
[14:17] <elky> so you no longer plan to make threats, spam nonsense or discuss inappropriate topics?
[14:17] <Panarchy> Of course.
[14:17] <elky> seems you still plan to spam nonsense.
[14:17] <Panarchy> No, not at all
 :B
 B:
[14:17] <elky> meaning none of that^^
[14:18] <Panarchy> It's just that I sounded (after reading what I wrote) a little full of myself, so I wanted to give of a 
[14:18] <Panarchy> 'friendlier' feel to my writing
[14:18] <elky> i dont care why you think you need to do it.
[14:18] <elky> i just want assurance you wont do it
[14:19] <Panarchy> Certainly. I assure you that I won't do it again.
[14:21] <Panarchy> Now, if you could be so kind, would you please liberate me of my ban?
[14:21] <elky> as soon as i find it.
[14:22] <elky> well. as soon as i find all of them
[14:22] <elky> ban dodging makes ban removal take a long time
[14:22] <Panarchy> Great, thank you.
[14:23] <Panarchy> Take your time, I'll be off to bed pretty soon, so as long as you can finish the unbanning process within 5 hours, I'll be happy.
[14:24] <bazhang> elky, check out #freenode
[14:24] <elky> bazhang, he's not actually done anything since april 1
[14:25] <tsimpson> there's a hostban in #k too
[14:25] <elky> bazhang, both he and fujisan are acting completely different
[14:25] <bazhang> elky, the whole 'don't know what happened to my cloak' is what I was referring to
[14:25] <Panarchy> Sorry about that, pressed an incorrect keyboard shortcut.
[14:25] <elky> bazhang, chances are he doesnt
[14:26] <bazhang> aha
[14:26] <elky> Panarchy, lifted for #ubuntu i think. we'll reevaluate the other channels based on the next few days behaviour.
[14:26] <Panarchy> Great, thanks.
[14:27] <Panarchy> Just testing, did you see what I've just written there?
[14:27] <Panarchy> (oh, someone else did, thanks again, excellent news)
[14:27] <elky> the sudden change in both he and fujisan is... intriguing.
[14:28] <tsimpson> imo, fujisan was always like that
[14:29] <tsimpson> seemed like they'd changed, then reverted when under some "stress"
[14:29] <bazhang> no wai. first question out of the box.
[14:30] <tsimpson> when fujisan lost their cloak and started being active in #k I watched for a few days. old behaviour soon returned
[14:39] <elky> tsimpson, either way, it's easy enough to re-ban them
[14:40] <tsimpson> and yet we don't...
 Im running Ubuntu 4.10 right now
[14:48] <bazhang> how much leeway to give Panarchy?
[14:49] <Seeker`> the same you'd give anyone else
[14:50] <bazhang> erm not really familiar with the whole Panarchy saga, are you Seeker` 
[14:50] <Seeker`> why does it matter what history someone has?
[14:51] <Seeker`> if someone is doing something "wrong", they need to be warned / kicked / banned
[14:51] <bazhang> indeed. a fresh slate for all
[14:51] <Seeker`> regardless of who they are
[14:51] <elky> bazhang, commonsense will tell you when it's enough.
[14:51] <bazhang> including asustek, groovyorange and the like
[14:51] <Seeker`> bazhang: no, not a fresh slate for all, just the same rules applied to everyone
[14:52] <Panarchy> hi
 everyone, type in: /clear
[14:52] <elky> what the heck?
[14:52] <Panarchy> Sorry, I'm tired and was getting dizzy with the screen
[14:52] <elky> i let you back in on good faith and you pull crap like that?
[14:52] <Panarchy> Thought it was a fun thing to do
[14:53] <Panarchy> Sorry man, it's past midnight here, not thinking as clearly as I should be
[14:53] <elky> no, it's not.
[14:53] <Panarchy> Okay, won't happen again
[14:53] <Panarchy> Anyways, I'm off.
[14:53] <Panarchy> Thanks for all your help elky
[14:53] <elky> dont let me down.
[14:53] <Panarchy> (if you'd noticed, I did help a number of people with there problems)
[14:53] <elky> i did notice, which is why i asked you here rather than nuking you
[14:54] <Panarchy> Thanks for that
[14:54] <Panarchy> It'll be a good channel to go into tomorrow, to discuss the rules file (within the debian folder).
[14:54] <Panarchy> Well, see ya then.
[14:55]  * Panarchy leaves ("Bye Everyone!")
[14:55] <elky> is he banned from -motu?
[14:56] <elky> no, he's not.
[14:56] <Seeker`> doesn't look like it
[14:56] <elky> i'll memoserv him
[14:59] <elky> oh ugh!
 radithz: Please don't flood, use http://paste.ubuntu.com to paste, don't use Enter as punctuation.
 radithz: Please don't flood, use http://paste.ubuntu.com to paste, don't use Enter as punctuation.
 radithz: Please don't flood, use http://paste.ubuntu.com to paste, don't use Enter as punctuation.
[14:59] <elky> nnnnnnnnnnnot good
[14:59] <LjL> rolleyes
[14:59] <LjL> elky: you see that because you're opped.
[14:59] <LjL> channel is +z, that's the way the floodbots work.
[14:59] <elky> oh?
[14:59] <elky> i'd not actually seen that before
[15:00] <LjL> *everything* the bots do or say, aside from a very limited number of things, is always done by the three of them.
[15:00] <LjL> only, you don't see it, because two of them are normally not opped.
[15:00] <LjL> and they're muted.
[15:00] <elky> aha
[15:03] <LjL> err
[15:03] <LjL> about the current !o4o
[15:03] <LjL> what was the rationale being apple software in ##mac?
[15:04] <LjL> perhaps we should add amiga software in #amiga, etc?
[15:04] <LjL> also, at this pace, i'm starting to agree with people who seem to think it could simply say "please abstain from talking in this channel" for short
[15:05] <LjL> anything that looks remotely like support - BAM
[15:05] <LjL> anything that's related to other operating systems - BAM
[15:10] <Seeker`> back later, time for shopiing
[15:12] <elky> LjL, right, so we should *only* expell windows discussions?
[15:14] <topyli> i would just prefer "remember that this is still an ubuntu channel. try to use a brain" :)
[15:24] <evilGary> topyli: sounds good
[15:24] <evilGary> also, I read that Seeker` is going shoplifting, I need glasses/sleep
[15:25] <topyli> you see right through him!
[15:32] <elky> topyli, the problem is the quality of brains being used. some of them are grossly flawed.
[16:01] <topyli> elky: that's where you come in, offering friendly cluebat help :)
[16:02] <elky> but how can we do that, when we havent told them they have to use a non-flawed brain.
[16:06] <topyli> the current list of deadly sins is not a very effective way to educate flawed brains either. all it does is make them read the list and find stuff that's not mentioned there
[16:25] <elky> topyli, 'intolerance' and 'discrimination' do not work at all. when we were so loose as that, we had arguments based on intolerant of discrimination is intolerance, discriminating against intolerance is discrimination -- and more on the 'but you didnt explicitly state we cant!
[16:26] <elky> the deadly sins has worked remarkably better than the looser versions ever did.
[16:26] <elky> and they were failing on less users
[16:27] <topyli> perhaps
[16:28] <elky> if you'd like to seriously reword the o4o in a manner that does not open either of the above loopholes, then by all means
[16:46] <NTFS> you ops cant see me
[16:47] <Seeker`> NTFS: how can we help you/
[16:47] <NTFS> you cant see me Seeker` 
[16:48] <Seeker`> how oculd I help you if i could see you?
[16:48] <NTFS> idk
[16:48] <NTFS> some cena joke
[16:48] <elky> !guidelines
[16:52] <elky> for crying out loud, what arcane magic is required to indent text on a new line in moin?
[16:59] <ripps> Could someone please approve the !intel alias, it would make helping people with intel problems in #ubuntu much easier
[17:01] <Seeker`> what does the second link have to do with it?
[17:01] <elky> ripps, a list of links will only confuse people more. are any of those links already on the other pages?
[17:01] <elky> and yeah, what Seeker` said
[17:03] <ripps> elky: I believe the the first link, links to the third at the bottom. But I insist on the second link, it's a guide to upgrading the driver in easy to follow directions.
[17:04] <elky> it's for sound. the issues are graphics
[17:06] <ripps> !intel is The intel driver in Jaunty is buggy due to architectural changes related to the switch to DRI2/UXA, read here about what you do about it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/IntelPerformance http://www.ubuntugeek.com/intel-graphics-performance-guide-for-ubuntu-904-jaunty-users.html 
[17:07] <ripps> seeker, elky: there, sorry I pasted the wrong link
[17:07] <elky> ugh, the ads on ubuntugeek's site are... not ideal
[17:08] <elky> i just opened to one offering me a new driver
[17:09] <ripps> elky: Ah, it appears ubuntugeek took it from an ubuntuforums source, I substitute that instead.
[17:09] <elky> ripps, sorry, but i'm not going to support advice that tells people to install stuff they download from http://ftp.us.debian.org/d
[17:10] <ripps> !intel is The intel driver in Jaunty is buggy due to architectural changes related to the switch to DRI2/UXA, read here about what you do about it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/IntelPerformance http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1130582 
[17:11] <ripps> elky: how about that?
[17:11] <elky> no. that second link is out. it tells people to install debian packages on their ubuntu system.
[17:13] <mneptok> when it comes to enabling and/or ficing hardware, i think referencing only the official Ubuntu docs and packages is the best approach
[17:13] <mneptok> *fixing
[17:13] <elky> !intel <reply>The intel driver in Jaunty is buggy due to architectural changes related to the switch to DRI2/UXA, read here about what you do about it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/IntelPerformance
[17:14] <elky> mneptok, exactly.
[17:14] <ripps> elky: thanks, I can understand leaving it out.
[17:15] <ripps> I'll keep the second link on hand if people want to know how use that method.
[17:15] <elky> ripps, please dont suggest to our users to download debian packages. it never ends well.
[17:15] <mneptok> ripps: i'd advise against that.
[17:15] <mneptok> strongly
[17:16] <ripps> mneptok: what if i'm able to find a PPA?
[17:18] <Flannel> Why is that page on w.u.c and not h.u.c?
[17:18] <elky> Flannel, because it's new, probably
[17:19] <Flannel> That's not exactly how that works, but sure.
[17:19] <elky> Flannel, it's only started 2009-04-15 15:41:52
[17:20] <ripps> mneptok: I found an equivalent package of the intel driver in the the ubuntu-x-swat ppa
[17:20] <Flannel> Right.  But that doesn't mean anything.  h.u.c/community is for all troubleshooting/etc stuff (regardless of maturity), whereas w.u.c is just for team stuff
[17:21] <elky> Flannel, ask the people who manage h.u.c then
[17:22] <Flannel> Er... no one manages the help wiki?  It's a wiki.
[17:22] <Flannel> Whoever made that page on wiki.ubuntu.com is just horribly old fashioned
[17:22] <elky> my understanding was that things sat on wiki until it was green-lighted for help
[17:22] <Flannel> Nah
[17:22] <elky> thats how it used to be
[17:23] <Flannel> Its exactly the same as it used to be, except help stuff goes on help and team stuff goes on teams
[17:23] <Flannel> We're talking about help.ubuntu.com/community not the userguide stuff
[17:23]  * elky shrugs
[17:23] <elky> move it across then. it's a wiki.
[17:24] <Flannel> Ah.  It's because it's part of the X team
[17:25] <Flannel> why is crdlb telling people to message some random bot for a factoid?
[17:27] <elky> crdlb, what is fusiobot?
[17:27] <crdlb> the #compiz bot
[17:28] <elky> why are you asking #ubuntu people to /msg it?
[17:28] <crdlb> maybe it would be easier to add a similar factoid to ubottu
[17:29] <Flannel> Or just give them the information.  asking them to message it didn't turn out so well.
[17:29] <crdlb> indeed :/
[17:30] <mneptok> ripps: PPAs for drivers make me nervous. who is the maintainer? what is their level of expertise? why is it that they need a PPA and cannot update the official package?
[17:31] <ripps> mneptok: I found a better ppa that's maintained by the "Intel graphics driver testing" team at ~intel-gfx-testing
[17:34] <elky> or asking them to join the appropriate support channel
[17:35] <mneptok> ripps: my point is that if a driver is seriously broken, a PPA is not the correct way to deal with the issue. a cogent, thoughtful bug report on LP leading to a new package is the correct way.
[17:36] <mneptok> ripps: IOW, if you're making a PPA and not following the standard procedure, it's probably not a good idea to trust the PPA maintainer.
[17:36] <ripps> mneptok: the issue isn't the driver alone, it's the kernel, people need to use the 2.6.30 kernel to fix intel graphics.
[17:37] <ripps> mneptok: it's a flow in Jaunty itself
[17:37] <mneptok> ripps: so then they should wait for the official packages to be updated
[17:37] <mneptok> ripps: if it's a major Jaunty problem, it will be fixed quickly.
[17:37] <Seeker`> ripps: suggestig people use unofficial and unsupported fixes is a bad idea
[17:38] <Seeker`> ripps: becuase it may break other things (subtle things or not), which may involve other unsupported things to fix etc. etc.
[17:38] <mneptok> ripps: it's like you find out your car has a recall from the manufacturer, and instead of taking it to the dealership you take it to your local tech high school's auto class.
[17:38] <mneptok> Bad Idea(tm)
[17:39] <jussi01> Can I just point out this mail to the ubuntu-devel list? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-April/028182.html
[17:39] <ripps> I always inform people about this method that isn't supported and that they do what it says at their own risk, but really, for some people, it's the only way to restore performance.
[17:41] <ripps> ubuntu-x-swap uses the same packages from intel-gfx-testing, they just carry packages for other drivers as well.
[17:44] <mneptok> ripps: Compiz is not necessary to run Ubuntu
[17:45] <crdlb> alright, I guess I'll rearrange the compiz wiki page on the subject eventually, and just provide a link to that in the future
[17:45] <ripps> mneptok: well, when I'm helping people in #ubuntu, and they ask me if there's anyway to get compiz working, what am I suppose to say? Should I lie and tell them is no method, or should I inform them of the risky way that will probably fix it?
[17:46] <mneptok> ripps: "there is a known problem, and the best thing to do is to wait for the official Ubuntu maintainers to release a fix"
[17:46] <mneptok> full stop.
[17:47] <elky> jussi01, that one is probably trustworthy enough
[17:49] <ripps> mneptok: Okay, I understand.
[17:52] <mneptok> ripps: thanks :)
[17:53] <ripps> btw, is their an alias to quickly inform users that AMD no longer supports their card with closed source drivers? We get a lot of dumbfounded ati users at #ubuntu
[17:58] <crdlb> maybe something like !r500 would be a better name
[18:00] <elky> hrm, bryce's drivers dont work for the eeepc701 :(
[18:00] <elky> well they work, they just dont fix anything
[18:02] <elky> maybe i need to un-break the xorg config too
[18:06] <elky> yeah, doesnt fix 701 at all
[18:25] <Flannel> !puregnome
[18:25] <Flannel> That doesn't really help for xubuntu...
[18:42] <elky> why would someone running xubuntu want 'pure gnome'?
[18:43] <Flannel> because they... uh, upgraded their RAM?
[18:44] <Flannel> Maybe they're tired of that mouse running all over their desktop, and want to squash it with a foot!
[18:52] <elky> Flannel, ah, i get it now
[18:52] <Flannel> hah
[18:56] <Nafallo> FOOT \☺/
[19:00] <Pricey> !o4o
[19:00] <Pricey> elky: I don't think that #ubuntu-ops should be the only place to discuss these rules.
[19:01] <Pricey> elky: There is a dispute resolution process, and i think anywhere along that should be suitable
[19:01] <Pricey> especially PM
[19:01] <ikonia> panarchy ban dodging in #ubuntu again
[19:01] <elky> ikonia, no.
[19:01] <ikonia> ?
[19:01] <ikonia> oh
[19:02] <ikonia> how did he get in then ?
[19:02] <elky> ikonia, i let him back in. nothing done since the 1st
[19:02] <jussi01> Unbanned.
[19:02] <ikonia> who by ?
[19:02] <ikonia> what ?
[19:03] <jussi01> ikonia: pm
[19:07] <ikonia> well for the record the fact that panarchy has been kline/ban dodging for weeks recently, his threats to take down #ubuntu based channels and all his past behaviour I am personally not happy the ban was removed - the fact that he was in freenode asking for a cloak as he "doesn't know what happened to it" even though he was told it was removed for ban dodging in the past and other incidents confirms he is still the same guy
[19:08] <elky> ikonia, he's in there to earn his new ban. he claims to be reformed, if you can prove he has not reformed this time then he has reearned it.
[19:08] <elky> ikonia, cloaks usually get removed with a kline. the trolls usually dont realise that's where it went.
[19:08] <ikonia> elky: I take the point - but at the same time, I'm not happy about it due to how serious his past behaviour was
[19:08] <ikonia> elky: it was explained to him - I was in the channel at the time
[19:09] <elky> ikonia, let him prove either way. it will be easier in the long run.
[19:09] <ikonia> yup
[19:10] <ikonia> as he's had the rules explained to him 101 times, he knows the drill - 
[19:10] <ikonia> I'm only noting this for the record 
 snuxoll: The mix of trolls, intelligent people, idiots, and others make it enjoyable for the most part :P
[19:10] <elky> congratulations, trolls are a *feature* of #UBUNTU-offtopic.
[19:11] <ikonia> isn't that what people call a bug they don't want to acknowledge
[19:12]  * jussi01 grumbles at DNA internet
[19:14] <Flannel> Is that where the internet is not a series of tubes, but a double helix?
[19:14] <ikonia> Flannel: what was it that USA senator said, it's like some pipes with trucks going down it ?
[19:15] <Flannel> ikonia: It's not like a big truck, you can't just dump stuff on it.  It's like a series of tubes.
[19:15] <Flannel> And sometimes the tubes get clogged.
[19:15] <ikonia> that was it
[19:15] <Flannel> Just last thursday, my staff sent me an internet, and it didn't, it didn't, arrive until Monday morning.
[19:15] <ikonia> something along those lines
[19:15] <ikonia> ha ha, always makes me laugh
[19:18] <Myrtti> graaaaaarrrggghy
[19:18] <Myrtti> pain. owwie
[19:20] <ikonia> time to return to the studio...laters
[19:28] <Seeker`> hi Myrtti 
[19:34] <Flannel> Myrtti makes the most interesting noises.
[19:35] <Flannel> I can't decide if its a Finnish thing, or if she just gets lucky pounding on the keyboard.
[19:35] <jussi01> haha
[19:36] <mneptok> Flannel: it's dactyl dispepsia
[19:36] <Myrtti> Flannel: it's my feet. they-ache-like-hell
[19:44] <mneptok> perrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrkele
[19:44] <elky> ugh, now -ot is about how to 'get the chicks'?
[19:46] <mneptok> "Don't idle in testosterone-laden IRC channels."
[19:46] <Flannel> No, one person mentioned it, theyre not discussing it.
[19:47] <elky> Flannel, i clicked to the channel, saw that line, and clicked out again. it's nearly 5am.
[19:54] <Flannel> Sheesh.  Ask people to be polite, and they decide to take their ball and go home.
[20:03] <elky> !no o4o is <reply>Some things are inappropriate for $chan. Some topics are controversial and often end in fighting. War, race, religion, politics, gender, sexuality, drugs, potentially illegal activities and suicide regularly upset people. Please be aware and drop a discussion if you are asked. Discuss Microsoft in ##windows and Apple in ##mac. To discuss these rules, please see !appeals. Please always adhere to Freenode Policy.
[20:07] <Flannel> !appeals
[20:07] <Flannel> That should also include -ops now, yes?
[20:08] <Flannel> (At least, the way it sounds, you want all policy questions directed towards !appeals, and I don't imagine you want every question emailed)
[20:08] <Flannel> let alone the chilling effect that'll have.
[20:12] <elky> fix as needed
[20:12] <elky> i just wanted something there before i hit enter on the one above
[20:12] <elky> lest it be called right after
[20:13] <Flannel> !-appeals
[20:13] <Flannel> Ah.  Thtas a new one.
[20:13] <Flannel> I was going to say... didn't know we had that.
[20:13] <elky> as i said, wanted something there before it might be needed
[20:14] <Flannel> Yep
[20:14] <elky> oh lordy. the kookaburras are sounding. dawn is on it's way
[20:14] <Flannel> Evil Yellow Day Star?
[20:14] <elky> yeah
[20:15] <elky> kookaburras usually sound at the first hint of dawn, which is usually as much as an hour away
[20:16] <jussi01> elky: you making me homesick :/
[20:16] <Pricey> !appeals
[20:16] <elky> can someone review the guidelines page and try fix the messedupness of the paragraphing? for some reason, it refuses to paragraph for me in the indented areas
[20:16] <jussi01> maybe s/IRC/in #ubuntu-ops/ ?
[20:17] <Flannel> jussi01: yeah, that's what I was considering.
[20:17] <elky> jussi01, pricey wants them to PM us too
[20:17] <Flannel> I missed that the first time entirely.
[20:17] <jussi01> elky: ahh
[20:17] <jussi01> then maybe s/IRC/via PM or in #ubuntu-ops/ ?
[20:18]  * jussi01 thinks many people dont know about -ops
[20:18] <elky> If you disagree with a decision by an operator, please first pay #ubuntu-ops a visit. If you are still unhappy, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/AppealProcess for the steps you should take. If you feel the need to discuss the channel rules, please contact the ops on IRC or at irc-council@list.ubuntu.com.
[20:18] <elky> jussi01, i know. personally, i'm happier this way :P
[20:18] <Flannel> I think we were referring to the latter IRC reference
[20:18] <Flannel> or, I was.
[20:19] <Flannel> elky: IrcGuidelines? or some other guidelines wiki page?
[20:19] <jussi01> meh, whatever
[20:19] <elky> Flannel, yah, that one
[20:20] <Flannel> elky: Paragraphs look good to me?  Which ones are you talking about?
[20:20] <Pricey> i just know that people don't like #ubuntu-ops for certain things
[20:20] <elky> Flannel, you mean the ones where verything is ONE HUGE paragraph is fine?
[20:20] <Pricey> and things can more easily get sorted out elsewhere... if you don't want to do that personally, that's fine
[20:20] <elky> Flannel, the raw will show you where i tried to split those
[20:20] <Flannel> I'll take a look
[20:21] <elky> Pricey, i understand that. but, the load here is plenty already. more people knowing is more load.
[20:21] <elky> !no, appeals is <reply>If you disagree with a decision by an operator, please first pay #ubuntu-ops a visit. If you are still unhappy, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/AppealProcess for the steps you should take. If you feel the need to discuss the channel rules, please contact the ops on IRC or at irc-council@list.ubuntu.com.
[20:24] <Flannel> register /?
[20:24] <Flannel> hmm
[20:24] <Flannel> Oh
[20:25] <elky> ?
[20:25] <Flannel> nothing, didn't see a factoid request, but saw ubottu
[20:25] <elky> heh
[20:25] <Flannel> or rather, I didn't see a mismatched factoid request
[20:27] <elky> but seriously, why was moin being daft at me?
[20:40] <jussi01> elky: cause it hates you
[20:40] <jussi01> :P
[20:40] <elky> i know that
[21:49] <elky> one laaaaaaaaaast change, then bed. and yes, its because i couldnt sleep
[21:50] <elky> !no o4o is <reply>Some things are inappropriate for $chan. Some topics are controversial and often end in fighting. War, race, religion, politics, gender, sexuality, drugs, potentially illegal activities and suicide regularly upset people. Please be aware and drop a discussion if you are asked. Support for Microsoft in ##windows and Apple in ##mac. To discuss these rules, please see !appeals. Please always adhere to Freenode Policy.
[21:57] <LjL> [16:12:30] <elky> LjL, right, so we should *only* expell windows discussions?
[21:57] <LjL> bug #1 says "Microsoft has a majority market share"
[21:57] <LjL> not "Apple has a majority market share", or "Commodore has a majority market share"
[21:58] <elky> LjL, you do realise we tolerate discussions where 'microsoft' and 'windows' exist, and that those clauses only exist for those seeking support in -ot because it's 'not ubuntu support', right?
[21:59] <elky> there's been a spate of mac customisation questions of late, especially with a certain breed of troll
[21:59] <LjL> elky: actually i really don't think that's why they exist at all. i think they exist because seveas or someone thought it was annoying to see long discussion about windows-related stuff as opposed to linux-related stuff
[21:59] <elky> LjL, it's why i put it on there in the first place.
[21:59] <Flannel> Yes, and treat them as trolls, not as bad discussion topics.
[22:00] <LjL> Flannel++
[22:00] <LjL> has any of you done any statistics on the #ubuntu-offtopic logs to see how much daily traffic there is, in the long run?
[22:00] <LjL> like, how much there was in 2006, 2007, 2008?
[22:00] <elky> Flannel, the trolls are held to the same rules as the regular users. that means the users have to be held to the same rules as the trolls.
[22:00] <Flannel> I don't keep logs of -ot
[22:01] <LjL> elky: and *that's* the sort of mindset that's ruining us.
[22:01] <elky> LjL, no, it's not.
[22:01] <Flannel> elky: Er... trolls are trolls.  When you're *trolling* you're trolling. Just because item X happens to be the topic of your troll, doesn't mean it has anything to do with item X.
[22:01] <LjL> we close #ubuntu-ops to everyone extraneous because we cannot accept the thought that perhaps we might just boot the people who're actually bad
[22:02] <LjL> we make a long list of forbidden topics in #ubuntu-offtopic, while channels like ##club-ubuntu prosper because their ops (yes, THOSE ops) can actually boot people based on their annoyingness
[22:02] <elky> LjL, no, because we dont want 50 cooks for every issue.
[22:02] <LjL> elky: i'm in #gentoo-ops, have been for a long time. they're open to anyone joining. i've never seen a serious argument in there.
[22:03] <elky> because gentoo users dont expect the same as what ubuntu users do.
[22:03] <LjL> perhaps
[22:03] <LjL> in other words - perhaps ubuntu users are idiot while gentoo users are not
[22:03] <LjL> but also perhaps people become idiots when they're treated as such.
[22:04] <Flannel> elky: When someone is trolling, you remove them for trolling.  You don't try and outlaw the topic they were trolling with, it doesn't work that way.  Or we might as well just close the channel, since trolls will always troll about something.
[22:04] <elky> gentoo users do not expect to be handheld,
[22:04] <Flannel> elky: Nor do Ubuntu users.
[22:04] <elky> yes, they do
[22:04] <Flannel> elky: No, they don't.
[22:05] <Flannel> The world is full of big boys and girls.
[22:05] <Amaranth> Please let us never get Apple users :P
[22:05] <Flannel> If you coddle them forever, sure, they'll never learn to think for themselves.
[22:05] <Flannel> That's not what #ubuntu is about, now, or ever.
[22:06] <elky> Amaranth, oh, but *clearly* we should.
[22:06] <Flannel> We help them solve their current issues, and teach them how to solve future issues.
[22:06] <elky> Flannel, try teach them how to google.
[22:06] <elky> or would you rather google for them
[22:06] <Amaranth> elky: Not if they continue to act like Apple users
[22:06] <elky> since you know, lmgtfy is *rude*
[22:06] <Flannel> elky: We teach them to use the wiki, how to use the forums, etc.
[22:07] <Flannel> elky: I don't understand where you're going with that last comment.  Just because we won't be rude, doesn't mean we don't teach.
[22:07] <elky> no, we teach them how to find forums posts that recommend installing debian packages.
[22:07]  * Nafallo pokes Ursinha softly
[22:07] <Amaranth> This is why I like #ubuntu+1
[22:07] <Amaranth> People in there are more welcome to actually learning how to do things
[22:07] <Amaranth> Well, they used to anyway
[22:08] <Flannel> elky: That's not what ubuntu is about.  I'm sorry if you've been removed from it so long that you don't remember that.  But that's in no way what we do there.
[22:08] <elky> Amaranth, not anymore it's not.
[22:08] <Amaranth> I still treat them that way, sometimes they get upset
[22:08] <Flannel> s/ubuntu/#ubuntu/
[22:08] <Amaranth> Those people just don't get help
[22:09] <elky> Flannel, did you see the link ripps posted earlier?
[22:09] <Flannel> elky: I'm sorry, I haven't learned to control the mind of everyone connected to IRC yet.
[22:10] <elky> it was telling people to install debian packages. he wanted us to recommend it to everyone with intel problems.
[22:10] <Flannel> elky: Bad apples always exist.  They're generally transient though.
[22:10] <elky> no, sorry, he *insisted*
[22:10] <Flannel> So?
[22:10] <Flannel> He's not exactly a regular.  I've never seen him before.
[22:10] <elky> Flannel, he's regular enough to know to submit factoids
[22:10] <Amaranth> Actually that's not a bad idea, so long as they don't enable the repo
[22:11] <elky> and to know that it should be done in PM
[22:11] <Flannel> elky: So, he's been around for a few days, so what?
[22:11] <Flannel> Good god.  Are you always this obtuse?
[22:11] <Flannel> Heaven forbid you don't take my word for it, since you know, I just started in #ubuntu yesterday.
[22:11] <elky> when it's 7am and as i'm about to leave to go to sleep, sure.
[22:11] <Flannel> elky: Whatever.
[22:12] <LjL> if someone doesn't understand why i've given up my ops and everything - this is why.
[22:12] <elky> LjL, cool, you can join them in -ot whilst snuxoll tells me i should accept being told i dont exist on the intarwebs.
[22:13] <elky> and how it shoudl be funny every time
[22:13] <Flannel> elky: Maybe if we kept up on -ot instead of just lamenting how bad its gotten, it wouldn't be so bad.
[22:13] <LjL> ++ again
[22:14] <elky> right, which is why i'm up at 7am
[22:14] <elky> becuase the CC has emailed the IRCC because of -offtopic.
[22:14] <Flannel> Changing a factoid isn't really going to fix much.  Especially when some of us don't agree regarding the policy and precident that factoid change sets.
[22:15] <Amaranth> mneptok: btw, the official fix for the intel issues in 9.04 won't show up until karmic
[22:15] <Amaranth> mneptok: we're going to have 6 months of hacks, PPAs, "backports", etc
[22:15] <elky> Amaranth, going to barcelona?
[22:15] <Amaranth> nope
[22:16] <elky> Amaranth, darn, was going to get you to pout at bryce for me.
[22:16] <Amaranth> to fix intel?
[22:16] <LjL> elky: i hope the CC didn't just email due to mtecknology or someone complaining about me, because that would be really wasted time :(
[22:16] <elky> for not having a way to turn compositing off in the UNR launcher
[22:17] <LjL> by the way - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2007-January/000164.html
[22:17] <Flannel> elky: Maybe that's because it's been allowed to fester with minimal intervention for at least a year?
[22:17] <Flannel> elky: We sit and watch it, people who try as individuals to fix it get overwhelmed, and give up because there's no concerted effort to make it better.
[22:18] <Amaranth> LjL: Didn't following that email end up creating ##club-ubuntu?
[22:20] <elky> LjL, no, not about that. something different and slightly private.
[22:20] <LjL> Amaranth: uh...  no.
[22:21] <elky> LjL, but more the the point that someone wants us to take a biased stance on topics rather than a bipartisan one.
[22:21] <LjL> still, pasting a link to that email doesn't mean i'm endorsing it.
[22:21] <LjL> elky: not the LGBT thing?
[22:21] <elky> LjL, sadly.
[22:21] <LjL> elky: oh meh
[22:22] <LjL> that's bollocks.
[22:22] <Flannel> What's going on?
[22:22] <LjL> i'm gay.
[22:22] <LjL> and we aren't discriminating me.
[22:22] <LjL> seriously.
[22:22] <elky> LjL, i've spent most of the night re-re-rewording this bullshit
[22:22] <LjL> elky: rww's reply to that email was imho pretty good.
[22:23] <elky> LjL, it was, but it wasnt that email that got forwarded to us
[22:23] <Amaranth> I'm lost
[22:23] <elky> well, actually, no email got *forwarded*
[22:23] <elky> Amaranth, stay that way.
[22:23] <Amaranth> Is someone saying he only got banned because he is gay?
[22:23]  * LjL really dislikes people who don't even even read a document, but are prepared to diss it
[22:23] <elky> Amaranth, pretty much.
[22:23] <LjL> Amaranth: nah
[22:23] <LjL> well, perhaps
[22:23] <elky> Amaranth, they say it's possible to be.
[22:23] <elky> or they think so
[22:24] <elky> or something
[22:24] <Amaranth> So that'd be a problem with the CoC, if anything
[22:24] <elky> LjL, i spent tonight rewording the guidelines.
[22:24] <Amaranth> Why is it something you have to handle?
[22:25] <elky> Amaranth, yes. which is why the CC is now concerned it might be true.
[22:25] <LjL> elky: except you shouldn't have to reword anything because there's nothing discriminatory
[22:25] <elky> LjL, there isnt. but now it's clearly that way.
[22:25] <elky> LjL, read it and fix the godawful formating breakage if you like
[22:26] <elky> and any typos i've added.
[22:27] <LjL> elky: it being !guidelines?
[22:28] <elky> it being the wiki page in there, yes
[22:30] <Seeker`> which document caused this argument?
[22:31] <elky> Seeker`, the guidelines wikipage
[22:31] <mneptok> LjL: you're GAY?!
[22:31]  * mneptok begins to rethink his heterosexuality
[22:31] <elky> LjL, run.
[22:31] <Seeker`> !guidelines
[22:32] <Seeker`> elky: that page?
[22:32] <elky> yes.
[22:35] <Seeker`> meh
[22:36] <mneptok> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHx8y1rFjdk
[22:36] <mneptok> claaaaaaaaaaasic
[22:38]  * elky is cautious of mneptok youtube links
[22:38]  * LjL is cautious of mneptok period
[22:39]  * mneptok hasn't gotten his period yet :(
[22:40] <elky> mneptok, you really ought to ask woo about the birds and the bees
[22:41] <elky> because whoever told you may have been affected by something at the time.
[22:42] <mneptok> my radiant beauty?
[22:43] <Flannel> mneptok: Perhaps, but unlikely.
[22:43] <Seeker`> LjL: what do you suggest changes then?
[22:43] <Seeker`> whats the solution to all this?
[22:44]  * jussi01 goes to bed
[22:44] <LjL> Seeker`: i don't think i know, but i sent another email once, and it was to the irc council, while i was still on it. here it is. http://paste.ubuntu.com/158144/
[22:48] <Seeker`> hmm
[22:48] <elky> LjL, and your suggestions at the bottom are akin to the new wording of o4o...
[22:49] <LjL> elky: but if you've changed that just to make it LGBT-safe, then it has little to do with my intent
[22:49] <LjL> also, i sent that email slightly more than one year ago :|
[22:50] <elky> i changed it to make it less possible for misunderstanding the intentions
[22:50] <elky> not to be lgbt-safe, but to reduce the risk of misinterpretation
[22:50] <elky> the misinterpretation is what has led to the lgbt issue
[22:51] <Seeker`> i'm not entirely convinced its just a simple misunderstanding
[22:51] <Seeker`> how long has o4o been worded like it was?
[22:52] <elky> Seeker`, it's changed in the past 6 months afaik
[22:52] <Seeker`> significantly?
[22:52] <Seeker`> or could the same interpretation be applied to the old one?
[22:53] <Flannel> Hmm, I wonder if my ubottu query log is frequent enough
[22:53] <elky> the people i've spoken to from the lgbt list say that it is iproved
[22:53] <LjL> and i say gay people i know would all believe the issue was moot to begin with
[22:54] <Flannel> Nope, I guess not.
[22:54] <Flannel> People who are looking for trouble will always find ways to cause trouble.
[22:56] <evilGary> I think the issue was moot, as a friend of dorothy
[22:57]  * Flannel wasn't trying to imply this was malice, could easily be misunderstanding.
[22:57] <Seeker`> maybe we need a "Chief Gay Op"
[22:57] <Flannel> Seeker`: That'll go over well.
[22:57] <evilGary> Seeker`: ha
[22:58] <Seeker`> if someone feels they have been banned for being gay, they can go to the "Cheif Gay Op" who can give an impartial opinion on whether they were banned for being gay or banned for being an idiot 
[22:59] <Flannel> So, mneptok is our Chief Elder God op?
[22:59] <evilGary> would this op need a nick Big-Gay-Al ?
[22:59] <elky> oh dear...
[22:59] <Flannel> "Did I get banned for eating mortals? or for being an idiot?"
[22:59] <evilGary> sorry elky I'll go hide again
[23:00]  * mneptok stirs in R'leyh
[23:00] <elky> the problem is that while the point may have been moot to begin with, it was concern enough for the CC to not say 'no, you're reading it wrong'
[23:01] <LjL> the problem as i see it is that the CC...
[23:01] <elky> that may be so. feel free to take *that* issue on all by yourself
[23:02] <Seeker`> brb
[23:06] <Amaranth> The wording saying you can't talk about Windows or OS X at all is a bit much
[23:08] <Seeker`> Amaranth: you mentioned Windows AND OS X!! OH NO!
[23:12] <elky> Amaranth, it's saying support for...
[23:13] <LjL> oh, gary
[23:13] <Seeker`> evilGary: I think a nick like "Gazzak" would do