[00:31] <slonbg> hi, i just upgraded my edubuntu 8.04 to 8.10 in order to migrate to 9.04. as I read, since 8.10, edubuntu is actually an addon cd. is there an additional repository I need to add in order to get the edubuntu packages, or the normal ubuntu repo should work?
[03:55] <dark4og> anyone place a snapscan fujitsu scanner on a thin client?
[04:00] <stgraber> dark4og: it's not supported by default but if your scanner is supported by SANE, you could install saned on your thin client and access it from the server by network
[04:02] <dark4og> I have attached it to the sever, Bang it was up... SANE command scanned in doc and all woked as advertised.
[04:02] <dark4og> I need one at each desk, scanning in all incoming documents.
[04:05] <dark4og> I have created a static IP in the client and went thru with some setting info that was used in Kiwi. this so far is at no visual  results.
[04:06] <dark4og> Using PXE boot
[04:14] <stgraber> so you have saned running on your thin clients, if so, adding the ip to /etc/sane.d/net.conf or something similar should do the trick
[04:14] <stgraber> it's actually on my last of things to test for a customer next week but the only bit that's worrying me is how to filter the scanners to show only the user's and not all the others as well
[04:21] <dark4og> In my case, I would be glad to just have it show up.. We are setting up another server with LTSP5, we have many hacks to the LTSP4 over the past year. I hope version 5 will pick it up.
[04:23] <dark4og> We have only a small office and this is just another step in the edubuntu saga. They had a tough time adjusting to linux and Ooo, but noe we are up way more than down.
[04:24] <dark4og> Good luck with your customer! Thanks for the chat.. :)
[08:35] <mede> hello everyone
[08:35] <mede> i have a question here
[08:36] <mede> how to setup multiple server
[12:28] <svenstaro> Uh, I'm going to deploy Edubuntu in my school. Anybody here who can help me out a bit?
[12:28] <svenstaro> For example, do you run the terminals off the same users (anonymously, like kiosk), have a user per terminal or create a user per student?
[13:07] <nubae> svenstaro: u can use any of those methods u like
[13:07] <nubae> generally I'd imagine people create a user per student, and these students can then log in to any terminal with that username/password
[13:08] <nubae> but if u want to create autologin terminals with one user per terminal u can do that too
[13:09] <nubae> or even both, a button for autologin, and the possibility to enter a user on the system
[13:09] <nubae> ltsp is very flexible
[13:11] <highvoltage> I think it depends on the age of the students. for young students auto-login is nice
[13:12] <highvoltage> for older ones you'll probably want to give them all their own users since they may want to store more of their own information without others interfering with it
[13:16] <nubae> greets highvoltage
[13:20] <highvoltage> hey nubae
[13:21] <svenstaro> In my school we agreed on not letting any users store any files at all.
[13:21] <svenstaro> How would you keep the user environment clean but provide a temporary way of saving data? Nightly jobs that default back all the users?
[13:22] <svenstaro> I would really like to 'freeze' the user dirs and only allow them to safe temporary data
[13:22] <svenstaro> save even
[13:24] <highvoltage> I guess if the clients had enough RAM I'd store it in a ramdisk.
[13:25] <svenstaro> How would you do that?
[13:26] <highvoltage> I haven't done exactly that yet, but there's a plugin for PAM that creates home directories for users if they don't exist
[13:26] <highvoltage> you could probably configure it to do so in /dev/shm/
[13:26] <svenstaro> On second thought, I probably don't have enough space there because I need the users to run some apps locally, like firefox for flash videos else the server will explode.
[13:27] <highvoltage> I guess you could also just have a bash script with a for loop that runs as a cron job and cleans the home directories out at midnight or something
[13:28] <highvoltage> pygi: thanks for fixing my link, not sure how it got that way :)
[13:28] <pygi> highvoltage, I see you finally decided to raise your voice :)
[13:28] <highvoltage> pygi: it was overdue :-/
[13:28] <pygi> highvoltage, yup, we talked about that some years ago xD
[13:28] <svenstaro> Bare with me a little bit, I'm quite new to LTSP but otherwise I'm a good sysadmin. All changes that the users will see will be in the isolated chroot?
[13:29] <highvoltage> svenstaro: well, their home directories are stored on your LTSP server
[13:29] <highvoltage> svenstaro: and so are all of the non-local applications
[13:29] <svenstaro> Okay, but if I want to install some educational software, I'll just chroot and apt-get and ltsp-image-update?
[13:30] <highvoltage> svenstaro: so users actually don't directly "see" much of the chroot
[13:30] <highvoltage> svenstaro: yes
[13:30] <svenstaro> by LTSP server, you mean what *exactly*? The chroot is on my LTSP server, obviously.
[13:31] <highvoltage> everything outside of the chroot.
[13:32] <svenstaro> Uh, you mean I have to install apps outside of the chroot for people to be able to use them?
[13:33] <highvoltage> for local apps, they need to be installed in the chroot, if you want to run them from the server, they must be installed there.
[13:34] <svenstaro> I see. So if I want to run firefox locally, I need to install that bugger in the chroot and build the image?
[13:34] <highvoltage> yes
[13:35] <highvoltage> what version of Ubuntu are you running?
[13:35] <svenstaro> 9.04, very freshly installed.
[13:35] <highvoltage> ok, I know in older versions you also have to copy a script called ltsp-localapps from on of the LTSP documentation directories to somewhere in your path
[13:36] <highvoltage> but I'm not sure if that's still required in 9.04
[13:36] <svenstaro> There was a hint in the release notes about something with localapps gotten easier.
[13:36] <svenstaro> localapps are MUST for me because the server is limitted to at most 2GBits
[13:37] <svenstaro> I did a few local tests and quickly got to know that a single youtube video pulls 250Mbits raw.
[13:37] <svenstaro> Also, 25% of my server, a full core.
[13:39] <svenstaro> I can wire mac addresses to users and therefore autologins and therefore workstations, right?
[13:39] <highvoltage> yes
[13:39] <highvoltage> you can define that in the lts.conf file
[13:39] <svenstaro> Nice. Which teacher administration tool would you use so that teachers get back some power?
[13:40] <highvoltage> hmm, I'm not sure, I think ITIL works with Edubuntu, but I suggest you hang around here, you might get a better answer :)
[13:41] <svenstaro> Right.
[13:41] <svenstaro> Another thing, do properietary drivers work?
[13:42] <svenstaro> Mainly for graphics so I can offload some media stuff onto the GPU.
[13:45] <highvoltage> svenstaro: yep
[13:46] <svenstaro> Is there any doc on this? I can't seem to find any.
[13:46] <highvoltage> although I found the open source ATI drivers much better than the proprietary ones on jaunty.
[13:46] <highvoltage> for nvidia the proprietary ones are still better i think
[13:46] <svenstaro> Well I can choose between nv and nvidia and nvidia is a lot better.
[13:47] <svenstaro> nv is without 3D acceleration, which is quite a must for some applications.
[13:47] <highvoltage> svenstaro: docs are a problem at the moment, the LTSP wiki contains the best LTSP related documentation afaik
[13:48] <svenstaro> In fact, I just shot a mail to the Edubuntu Docs guy and asked him to clean up the mess :/ Seriously, I'm finding so much old and new information about LTSP and I don't know which is which. Kind of frustrating.
[13:49] <highvoltage> it is indeed, sorry about that. it's something that we'll be addressing soon after addressing some slightly more pressing community issues.
[13:50] <svenstaro> Well, I can deal with it I guess, but I do have to wonder what those generic teachers will do.
[13:50] <highvoltage> *nod*
[13:51] <nubae> the ltsp docs are actually upstream now
[13:51] <nubae> I'm pretty sure nobody is gonna be working on the edubuntu ltsp stuff
[13:51] <nubae> for the ltsp upstream docs join #ltsp and check the topic
[13:52] <svenstaro> http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
[13:52] <svenstaro> Right?
[13:52] <nubae> yup
[13:52] <svenstaro> So on Edubuntu, where should the lts.conf *really* reside? chroot or tftpd?
[13:53] <nubae> tftpd
[13:53] <nubae> but also in chroot, either or... though outside is preferable since u dont have to rebuild chroot for it to be active then
[13:53] <svenstaro> Right, nice :)
[13:54] <svenstaro> What is kiwi-ltsp and k12 from fedora and how do they relate and perform? There's genuinely mixed information about both.
[13:55] <highvoltage> kiwi-ltsp is a fork for SuSE
[13:55] <highvoltage> K12 uses LTSP on centos
[13:55] <nubae> kiwi is actually great
[13:55] <nubae> its not really a fork... it is still ltsp 5
[13:55] <nubae> it just uses the kiwi back end to build images instead of nbd
[13:55] <highvoltage> nubae: ok, ogra didn't seem to agree with that a while back
[13:55] <nubae> I know :-)
[13:56] <svenstaro> So what is k12 then? kiwi for fedora?
[13:56] <nubae> the main reason being they do have their paths a little mixed up... ie, opt/ltsp is /srv/kiwi-ltsp
[13:56] <nubae> and so on
[13:56] <nubae> heh
[13:57] <nubae> no, k12 is the educational version of fedora that includes ltsp
[13:57] <nubae> I'd really recommend checking out opensuse-edu though, thats really quite impressive
[13:57] <nubae> I hate to say it but its running circles around edubuntu
[13:58] <svenstaro> Oh no, more circles yet!
[13:59] <svenstaro> Actually, the original LTSP are pretty good. Some are pretty old but still it's comprehensive.
[13:59] <svenstaro> The docs, that is.
[14:01] <highvoltage> svenstaro: heh, the person you sent that e-mail to just pasted a part of it as a comment on my blog :)
[14:01] <svenstaro> So, for nvidia I'd simply get ubuntu nvidia package from it's repos, make the clients X4_MODULE = nvidia, XSERVER = nvidia, MODULE = nvidia and bam, I've got native 3d acceleration?
[14:02] <svenstaro> Oh my :P Can I get a link or does he say horrible stuff about me now.
[14:03] <highvoltage> not at all, just a sec...
[14:04] <highvoltage> svenstaro: http://jonathancarter.co.za/2009/04/26/what-should-become-of-edubuntu/#comment-228473
[14:04] <nubae> yeah, edubuntu community needs to be motivated again
[14:05] <nubae> I dont think I've seen a mail on the mailing list in a good month
[14:05] <svenstaro> Oh dear :P
[14:05] <svenstaro> What a horrible typo I did there.
[14:06] <svenstaro> s/expect/except/g
[14:06] <nubae> funny, there's the mention of sugar there, but that is just as dead as edubuntu...
[14:07] <nubae> on the ubuntu platform that i
[14:07] <nubae> is
[14:07] <highvoltage> well, not quite, there's still one guy working on sugar
[14:07] <highvoltage> *duck*
[14:07] <highvoltage> (sorry bad joke)
[14:07] <nubae> :-)
[14:07] <svenstaro> I never tried sugar but from it looks like it isn't suited for my kind of environment.
[14:08] <nubae> I moved to opensuse with that and started packaging along with some other folk, and we now have a really nice environment, including about 50 sugar activities running 0.84
[14:08] <svenstaro> In my opinion, the disaccptance of Edubuntu is because there is 1) No comprehensive documentation 2) No mindset in the distro of what a real teacher would look forward to.
[14:09] <svenstaro> You see, I'm still just a student myself 2 1/2 years away from finishing school, but I certainly know what kind of software I'd want to use as a teacher.
[14:09] <nubae> well, it really happened because of the name change... it was suggested edubuntu become ubuntu-edu, and then everything got confused...
[14:10] <svenstaro> Yeah, in my opinion, that was a big flaw. Edubuntu, LTSP and Ubuntu are different things with completely different goals each and they should be definitely separated.
[14:10] <nubae> now we have the edubuntu web site and the edubuntu channel, but we don't even have canonical's blessing to distribute the edubuntu addon cd
[14:10] <nubae> the only way to get it is via p2p
[14:10] <svenstaro> Huh
[14:10] <nubae> its all very sad...
[14:11] <svenstaro> The main Ubuntu site has some references to Edubuntu even.
[14:11] <nubae> yeah, thats outdated and all
[14:11] <svenstaro> Meh :/
[14:12] <svenstaro> Ironically that you made that blog post just yesterday.
[14:12] <svenstaro> Woah, my English suffers badly from sleep deprivation.
[14:15] <nubae> I haven't seen Riched in ages either, does he still work for canonical?
[14:19] <nubae> anyway, highvoltage is right to sing praises to Laserjock (Jordan Mantha), he's been doing it all single handedly, I'm surprised he hasn't thrown in the towl...
[14:19] <alkisg> "(04:10:50 μμ) nubae: the only way to get it is via p2p" - what about this? http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/9.04/release/edubuntu-9.04-addon-amd64.iso
[14:20] <nubae> alkisg: hmmm, ok, u got me :-) At least it was discussed there would be no more support from canonical
[14:21] <alkisg> It's not mirrored, but it is in the ubuntu site
[14:21] <alkisg> (slow, but there :))
[14:21] <nubae> ah no mirroring
[14:21] <pygi> svenstaro, you know...
[14:21] <nubae> that was it... well its similar in its destructio of edubuntu
[14:21] <pygi> back in the time, I worked on the documentation ....
[14:21] <pygi> and we actually created something
[14:22] <pygi> but there was no real support from outside
[14:23] <svenstaro> From my point of view, Edubuntu is kind of misdirected. Or rather, has always been rather misdirected. If it was meant for teachers, then teachers should be able to set it up and administrate it. The handbook does come close to that, but I imagine it provides too much for a quick look.
[14:24] <pygi> right...
[14:24] <nubae> the other problem is the installation medium, even though it makes sense to seperate the 2, from a user perspective, they want one cd to install the OS
[14:25] <alkisg> Well, as a teacher, I think that edubuntu without LTSP is just a collection of applications. And because different countries have different educational systems, those collections are pretty much useless to most of the teachers :(
[14:25] <nubae> alkisg: right
[14:25] <svenstaro> Indeed. Why would you even want to perform to a 700mb iso? If you are gonna put it on a server, it might as well be a DVD.
[14:25] <pygi> highvoltage, are you around?
[14:25] <nubae> as fedora and opensuse have done
[14:25] <pygi> I need to have a word with you
[14:26] <svenstaro> alkisg: Exactly. There should be a quite advanced helper for the teachers to help them set them up an environment the way they want.
[14:26] <alkisg> It would be much better if edubuntu was the ability to create custom packages lists per country..
[14:26] <alkisg> E.g. edubuntu-el-primary
[14:27] <svenstaro> alkisg: Not necessarily, for example in Germany, most schools randomly decide what tools to use for teaching. Because of lack of proper guidance and fear, we do not even use Google Earth, even though it's free for educational use. :/
[14:27] <alkisg> svenstaro: so it wouldn't be possible for the german ministry of education to approve a list of applications for each level?
[14:28] <alkisg> Because in Greece, I know such a thing would be possible.
[14:28] <svenstaro> alkisg: Most probably not if the fate of the applications themselves is uncertain. Also that's called unfair market advantage around here.
[14:29] <svenstaro> No application would ever be standardized. Every school has a get together once a year of all the teachers of one particular subject and they basically decide on what tools and books to use.
[14:29] <alkisg> So what do your computer-related books have when they want to teach the students e.g. how to use a word processor?
[14:32] <alkisg> Erm.... "what tools and books to use." => so the ministry doesn't publish books for all the students?
[14:33] <svenstaro> No, private companies publish books on different subjects and the schools get to choose which company to follow for a few years.
[14:33] <nubae> same with the British system
[14:33] <pygi> same with Croatian system
[14:34] <svenstaro> It's ultimately up to the head teacher of each subject to make the decision. In the end, the principal only gets to nod at the teachers' choices and has to somehow get the money from the school holder (next bigger city).
[14:36] <svenstaro> Trying to enforce a standard on anything is fundamentally against our market system, so nothing is enforced, even though some media is banned.
[14:36] <svenstaro> Anyway, what will become of Edubuntu?
[14:36] <pygi> what we make out of it svenstaro I guess? :)
[14:36] <pygi> I've left Edubuntu ages ago, for some of the reasons highvoltage mentions...
[14:38] <svenstaro> So does Canocial approve Edubuntu or does it sanction it does it hate Edubuntu now?
[14:38] <svenstaro> Give me some insight :P
[14:38] <nubae> I think it just doesnt care
[14:38] <pygi> probably something like that, yes
[14:39] <svenstaro> Meh.
[14:41] <svenstaro> And there isn't even any community member who really wants to work on it because... there isn't any community member who really wants to work on it... because (recursion) ?
[14:42] <pygi> svenstaro, :p
[14:44] <pygi> I think if anyone will really want to work on it, it'll be outside the project
[14:45] <pygi> if you understand what I mean
[14:50] <svenstaro> I'm actually quite short of building my own Edubuntu :P
[14:57] <highvoltage> pygi: I'm around now
[14:58] <pygi> highvoltage, are you going to UDS?
[14:59] <highvoltage> pygi: yes.
[14:59] <pygi> highvoltage, ohhh!
[14:59] <pygi> cool, want us to raise some voices there?
[15:00] <highvoltage> svenstaro: that's where I am at the moment, if we can't get Edubuntu on track again, I'll be resurecting some old work that I did as part of a distro we used to base on edubuntu
[15:00] <highvoltage> pygi: yes, that's the plan
[15:00] <pygi> highvoltage, pm then :)
[15:00] <highvoltage> pygi: I think people should really get serious about Edubuntu again, that's first prize.
[15:01] <pygi> svenstaro, do you have the resources to do that
[15:09] <pygi> svenstaro, wake up :)
[15:26]  * svenstaro wakes up
[15:26] <svenstaro> I have resources as in time and machines. I'm a student, goddamnit :P
[15:29] <svenstaro> Could Edubuntu become Schoolbuntu to address the intended audience further and to separate itself from the shattered remains that is Edubuntu?
[15:29] <svenstaro> A fresh and genuinely clean start is dearly needed in my opinion.
[15:29] <svenstaro> Every project start with a MEDIAwiki :P
[15:29] <highvoltage> svenstaro: it depends on how things turn out
[15:30] <svenstaro> When is UDS?
[15:30] <pygi> svenstaro, end of May
[15:30] <highvoltage> svenstaro: end of next month
[15:30] <highvoltage> svenstaro: but we should have an answer on the lists way before then
[15:30] <pygi> svenstaro, you have a pm btw
[15:50] <svenstaro> Anyway, will you guys let me know how this turns out? I might not always be on IRC.
[16:00] <highvoltage> svenstaro: yep, but please drop by again some time
[16:39] <NCommander> good morning
[18:08] <Ahmuck> i've an idea that could furhter edubuntu greatly