[00:42] <NCommander> jbailey, due to the fact I don't ATM have a passport anymore, I won't be able to pick up the space heater anytime from andrew. Probably later in may or early June looks most likely
[00:42] <NCommander> jbailey, wb
[19:14] <NCommander> lamont, ping, I need your advice on a HPPA issue w/ the buildds I think.
[19:15] <NCommander> lamont, specifically, I think part of the problem with hanging processes (such as kde4libs (and ruby1.9 on Debian)) is the kernel on the buildds and porting box is very old
[19:26] <lamont> NCommander: yep
[19:26] <lamont> and glibc
[19:27] <lamont> never forget glibc
[19:27] <NCommander> lamont, what is the possibility of bumping the kernel version on the porter box to see if my theory lives or dies?
[19:27] <lamont> basically, nptl/hppa only very recently (as in post-jaunty) got fixed in glibc
[19:27] <jbailey> lamont, Isn't the glibc current to the release he's hacking on?
[19:27]  * NCommander has been following debian-hppa, and linux-hppa to some extent seeing if there is anything I need to pull into the ports tree
[19:29] <lamont> NCommander: hardy user space.  if there's a hardy-backport (ppa or otherwise) that fixes things, I expect we can try - remember that it still has to be able to run a dapper chroot for building dapper bits...
[19:29] <NCommander> ugh. and dapper won't die until 2011
[19:32] <jbailey> lamont, Can't we just declare that hppa machines are only workstations and expire it in a couple months?
[19:32] <NCommander> lamont, so basically, try to backport a kernel, and backport glibc?
[19:33]  * NCommander can't even confirm if the current HPPA kernels boot due to ENOEMULATOR
[19:33] <lamont> jbailey: there is a certain amount of humor to be had there... and actually, ports != LSB unless the ports team says so
[19:33] <NCommander> I doubt LSB even has a HPPA variant
[19:34] <jbailey> It doesn't.
[19:34]  * NCommander is just waiting for the gcc-4.3 regression tests to finish on HPPA
[19:34] <jbailey> It was one of the things I was working on when I decided to stop hacking HPPA
[19:34] <NCommander> lamont, I ran the 4.4 ones for infinity and doko, they're fairly happy except in libstdc++v3 which had an unhandled error
[19:34] <NCommander> jbailey, why'd you stop hacking on HPPA?
[19:35] <jbailey> NCommander, upstream induced apathy.
[19:35] <NCommander> kernel, or toolchain/ or glibc?
[19:36] <jbailey> I was hacking on all three.
[19:36] <jbailey> But kernel.
[19:36] <NCommander> Dare I ask?
[19:36] <jbailey> Well.
[19:36] <jbailey> It's not a very interesting story.
[19:36] <jbailey> That's the great part about apathy. =)
[19:36] <lamont> lol
[19:37] <NCommander> I guess the question is more what caused said apathy
[19:37] <lamont> jbailey: you were apathetic before you didn't care, no?
[19:37] <NCommander> I thought HP pushes HPPA fairly hard after ia64 sunk.
[19:37] <jbailey> lamont, It's hard to tell what order they happened in.
[19:38] <jbailey> lamont, It was sort of one last attempt to try and get all the pieces going because it looked like it might finally be possible.
[19:38] <jbailey> I actually understood all the pieces finally. =)
[19:40] <NCommander> jbailey, do you have any HPPA hardware still?
[19:40] <jbailey> NCommander, Nope.
[19:40] <NCommander> pity :-/. I would have tried to buy you out.
[19:41] <jbailey> I wouldn't have sold it. =)  I got all the hardware for free and that's how it left my hands.
[19:41] <NCommander> how'd you get free hardware
[19:41] <jbailey> Once upon a time, people cared about these ports and would arrange hardware for the willing.
[19:42] <NCommander> HP officially axed PA-RISC late last year :-/
[19:43] <jbailey> Makes sense, they stopped R&D on it a while ago.
[19:44] <jbailey> I keep wondering when MIPS is going to finally roll over and die.
[19:44] <NCommander> MIPS is unlikely to die soon
[19:44] <NCommander> There's an Ubuntu/mips port (if you know Chinese)
[19:46] <jbailey> Yeah.  NAS boxes keep them alive.
[19:46] <NCommander> I was actually referring to the MIPSel netbook
[19:46] <jbailey> I don't get why those haven't just switched to ARM.  I'd have thought it would be cheaper.
[19:46] <jbailey> eh, really?
[19:46] <jbailey> Neat.
[19:46] <jbailey> I didn't know anyone was making new products when them.
[19:47] <NCommander> yeah
[19:47] <NCommander> mips isn't as expensive as arm
[19:47] <NCommander> (I think a few implementations are even open source)
[19:48] <NCommander> I dunno, maybe Ubuntu/hppa should be axed now that the architecture is dead upstream (which kinda depresses me; I hate seeing good architectures die)
[19:50] <jbailey> Or we should start an Amiga port.
[19:50] <jbailey> =)
[19:50] <NCommander> Actually
[19:50] <NCommander> I did some work towards bootstrapping Ubuntu/m68k ...
[19:50] <jbailey> lamont, Whatdyathink?  Would elmo run amigas in the DCs?
[19:50] <NCommander> for April fools
[19:50] <NCommander> glibc has issues.
[19:50] <jbailey> Infinity and I talked about that.  A coldfire-only port.
[19:50] <jbailey> He had some hardware and never got it up and running.
[19:52] <NCommander> I looked into that
[19:52] <NCommander> I have coldfire hardware myself
[19:52] <jbailey> Fun.
[19:52] <NCommander> You run into the no NPTL issue again
[19:52] <NCommander> (and my CF board has a broken NIC)
[19:52] <jbailey> I think at the time I'd offered to do some of the NPTL porting.
[19:52] <jbailey> m68k asm isn't that scary.
[19:53] <NCommander> jbailey, I'll give you access to my CF if your interested
[19:53] <jbailey> I'm old and crochety now.
[19:53] <NCommander> I looked into it myself, the problem is the m68k ABI doesn't have the necessary spots to put in the tls info
[19:53] <jbailey> Which is to say I have a 2 year old at home.
[19:53] <jbailey> You can fake out the tls stuff with pseudo registers like on mips, iirc.
[19:53] <NCommander> No, no, you misunderstand
[19:54] <NCommander> The ELF/m68k binary format was never extended
[19:54] <NCommander> (if I remember debian and linux-m68k right)
[19:54] <jbailey> Oh. Hmm.  Then IIRC, then you can just use segment references.  Slower, but not that big of a deal.
[19:55] <jbailey> You're talking years ago since I looked at this.
[19:55] <jbailey> Debconf 4?
[19:55] <jbailey> When we were looking at abi transitions.
[19:55] <jbailey> And sadly my drug cocktail of the last year has left some holes in my memory.
[19:55] <jbailey> Although most things are back now.
[19:55] <NCommander> Late 2006-2007
[19:55] <NCommander> When I was involved with debian-m68k
[19:55] <NCommander> Maybe early 2008
[19:56] <jbailey> Well, I mean doko, gotom, me, and a bunch of porters sat in a room in Brazil and talked about the fact that every Debian arch starting with the letter M was fucked for NPTL.
[19:56] <lamont> jbailey: re: amiga --> I'd have to come hurt you.
[19:56] <lamont> and if that means smuggling distance weapons into canada, so be it. :-p
[19:56] <jbailey> lamont, Hey, it would be good to see you!
[19:57] <NCommander> jbailey, mips was fucked for NPTL?
[19:57] <jbailey> And Angie would talk you out of it.  She's too cute to say no to. =)
[19:57] <lamont> jbailey: point.
[19:57] <jbailey> NCommander, Yeah.  Had the same problem where the ABI hadn't been extended.
[19:57] <jbailey> Think 2004.
[19:57] <jbailey> long time ago.
[19:57] <lamont> and then there are those pictures from that thing that time
[19:57] <jbailey> MIPS Inc was still figuring it out.
[19:57] <NCommander> From what I gather, implementing NPTL isn't that difficult, once you extend the ABI
[19:58] <NCommander> Basically you need to get binutils to use the new fields, support the necessary relocations, get glibc and gcc to handle them, and implement the kernel helpers
[19:58] <NCommander> That being said, Freescale has said repeatively to except m68k/TLS sometime soon
[19:58] <jbailey> fabbione-vac, Vac?
[19:58] <jbailey> fabbione-vac, You using a vacuum pump again?
[19:58] <NCommander> (the toolchain exists with patches, I forgot what the hold up was)
[19:58] <fabbione-vac> jbailey: that's the idea...
[19:58] <jbailey> fabbione-vac, It's not worth it.
[19:59] <fabbione-vac> ahha
[19:59] <jbailey> err.
[19:59] <jbailey> not
[19:59] <jbailey> that
[19:59] <jbailey> I would
[19:59] <jbailey> know...
[19:59] <fabbione-vac> yeah right
[19:59] <fabbione-vac> ;)
[19:59] <fabbione-vac> time for 3 days of full vacation
[19:59] <fabbione-vac> that means I am going be so looking forward to go back to work and relax...
[19:59] <jbailey> fabbione-vac, I promise not to tell your wife!
[19:59] <fabbione-vac> ahha done deal ;)
[19:59] <jbailey> fabbione-vac, Enjoy =)
[19:59] <fabbione-vac> thanks
[20:03]  * NCommander wonders if we'll see another port of Ubuntu in the not so distant future
[20:04] <jbailey> Because the previous ones have worked so well? =)
[20:04] <NCommander> jbailey, ARM and powerpc work quite well
[20:04] <NCommander> SPARC works ok-ish if your not bitten by the SILO sucks bug
[20:05] <jbailey> The PPC I was sad to get rid of.
[20:05] <NCommander> jbailey, why?
[20:05] <jbailey> Because it was a quad-core G5. =)
[20:05]  * NCommander notes that PowerPC is still not a dead architecture (thanks IBM!)
[20:05] <NCommander> jbailey, ack, why'd you toss it?
[20:05] <jbailey> Wasn't going to be working on it anymore.
[20:06] <jbailey> So I gave it to a kernel dev who said he'd give it love.
[20:06] <NCommander> ;.;, I have one old PowerMac G4 which I use as a router
[20:06]  * NCommander still wants to get the space heater, but ATM thats impossible