[00:00] <jml> it's challenging to prepare a session because there are so many things you can do with them and so many levels of knowledge
[00:00] <jml> so actually the best thing you can do is ask me on #bzr or #launchpad
[00:00] <jml> Or ask the channel, we're a pretty friendly bunch.
[00:01] <jml> and lots of us have had to climb the learning curve recently, so we know what it's like
[00:01] <jml> That's it from me
[00:02] <jml> You're all wonderful :)
[00:02] <jml> happy hacking!
[00:04]  * RainCT hugs jml :)
[00:05]  * arky claps
[00:06] <jml> \o/
[00:06] <james_w> thanks jml
[00:07] <jml> my pleasure.
[00:41] <destitutedly> hey
[00:41] <destitutedly> :-D
[03:32] <thebrotherofasis> quit
[07:18] <czajkowski> 'part
[08:47] <UbuntuBuddy> hello?
[13:18] <Odd_Bloke> That happens to me on the
[13:18] <Odd_Bloke> ¬.¬
[14:50] <jcastro> We'll get started in a bout an hour and 10 minutes!
[15:48] <bbb_> morning jorge
[15:48] <jcastro> morning bbb_ !
[15:48] <jcastro> we'll start in about 12 minutes!
[15:51] <jcastro> cprov: you're up first!
[15:51] <jcastro> before we get started, thanks again everyone for coming, as always, please keep this channel clear for the presenter
[15:51] <cprov> jcastro: yes, I'm ready.
[15:51] <jcastro> and post your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[15:52] <jcastro> cprov: ok, ~8 more minutes!
[15:52] <cprov> sure
[16:00] <jcastro> ok cprov, take it away!
[16:00] <cprov> jcastro: thanks
[16:01] <cprov> Hi everyone, we are here to talk about Soyuz, a Launchpad subsystem.
[16:01] <cprov> feel free to send your question in #ubuntu-classroom-chat anytime.
[16:02] <cprov> In this session I want to give a overview about the Soyuz and which roles it plays in the Launchpad ecosystems
[16:03] <cprov> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CelsoProvidelo/SoyuzInfrastructureOverview has a diagram of the soyuz moving parts.
[16:03] <cprov> Basically Soyuz = upload processing + building + package publication.
[16:04] <cprov> oh, we already have a question:
[16:04] <cprov> Odd_Bloke: QUESTION: Which part is Soyuz again?  And is it named after Chinese food?
[16:04] <cprov> funny, huh?
[16:05] <cprov> Soyuz is named after the soviet space-programme/rocket -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_programme
[16:06] <cprov> back to the main subject, Soyuz is the background infrastructure for the Ubuntu package management system and the Launchpad PPAs
[16:07] <cprov> I thought we were going to have more questions.
[16:09] <cprov> jcastro: Question: Can you talk about some of the new features that we can look forward to in soyuz?
[16:10] <cprov> jcastro: good one! we are looking forward to have proper integration with Launchpad Codehosting very soon.
[16:10] <cprov> jcastro: cprov: so we can build packages rigfht from hosted code on lp?
[16:10] <cprov> exactly
[16:11] <cprov> user will be able to branch and build source packages very easily.
[16:12] <cprov> no painfully huge tarball uploads anymore, just one click and a branch will be materialized as a source package in Ubuntu or your PPA.
[16:12] <cprov> genii: QUESTION: Whats the policy on inclusion of binary blobs, proprietary bits, etc
[16:14] <cprov> genii: it depends on the license, nothing forbids you to upload a binary blob with a source package and distribute it in your PPA, but if it violates the upstream license the PPA will be deactivated as soon as someone complains.
[16:14] <cprov> tsimpson: QUESTION: why invent soyuz, wasn't there anything else that does what you want?
[16:15] <cprov> tsimpson: no, there wasn't anything that could be easily integrated with Launchpad off-the-shelve.
[16:16] <cprov> tsimpson: however it seems unfair to not mention that a lot of the knowledge encoded in Soyuz parts comes from the Debian experience, as many other systems over there.
[16:17] <cprov> jtholmes: QUESTION: who is allow to perform the builds, devs, ordinary users...?
[16:18] <cprov> jtholmes: right now, every ubuntu developer (launchpad users with permission to upload to ubuntu) OR every Launchpad user with a PPA (who has signed the Ubuntu Code of Conduct).
[16:18] <cprov> jtholmes: PPA make it available to almost everyone.
[16:18] <cprov> genii: QUESTION: Will Soyuz be included when LP is open-sourced soon?
[16:18] <cprov> good one, too.
[16:19] <cprov> genii: unfortunately, Soyuz won't be included in the initial release.
[16:20] <cprov> tsimpson: QUESTION: can we get some more builders for PPAs? please :)
[16:21] <cprov> tsimpson: yes, soon about 18 builders will be returned to their normal operation, building PPA sources.
[16:22] <cprov> tsimpson: they are helping to serve jaunty, atm.
[16:22] <cprov> Odd_Bloke: QUESTION: Will Soyuz be included in any later releases of LP code?  And is it being kept proprietary because it can't easily be relicensed, or because Canonical depends on it for revenue?
[16:23] <cprov> Odd_Bloke: I can't guarantee, since this decision involves a lot of other interests inside the company, but I can tell that we are working hard to have a concrete and realistic plan to release Soyuz code.
[16:25] <cprov> from the development perspective it would be great to release Soyuz code, we are looking forward to allow the community to actively work with it.
[16:25] <cprov> Odd_Bloke: QUESTION: Is support for building Debian packages on the cards?
[16:26] <cprov> Odd_Bloke: yes, we are effectively planning to have Debian-PPAs very soon after the Launchpad code release.
[16:27] <cprov> debian-PPA = sources published and build in an native debian environment.
[16:27] <cprov> james_w: QUESTION: is there a plan to help with having the same source in different releases without having to upload multiple times with just a changelog tweak?
[16:27] <cprov> james_w: yes, that's actually supported in the debian changelog format
[16:28] <cprov> james_w: and there is a bug filled in Launchpad 3.0 release, which means that it should be done by July.
[16:29] <cprov> james_w: we have to work on rebuild index support in Launchpad, so the same source can generate *different* binary versions when building in different suites.
[16:29] <cprov> james_w: but it's feasible and should be in place very soon.
[16:30] <cprov> james_w: so it will be done by rebuilding with a different binary version, rather than copying the binaries forward?
[16:31] <cprov> yes, the source will be rebuilt in each target suite
[16:32] <cprov> james_w: copying is already supported (internally, not in the UI) but it's not what multi-target uploads are suppose to do, right ?
[16:32] <cprov> james_w: QUESTION: that sounds excellent, thanks. Will the same mechanism make it possible for us to do no-change rebuilds in Ubuntu without a sourceful upload?
[16:33] <cprov> james_w: yes, well observed, the rebuild-infrastructure will be used for no-change rebuilds as well
[16:34] <cprov> no-change rebuilds = a subset of source have to be rebuilt within a suite in order to take advantage a new common build-dependency.
[16:36] <cprov> ah, together with all this infrastructure changes we are putting together a group of changes in the Launchpad UI to make it easier for user to search and navigate on Ubuntu packages
[16:38] <cprov> Martin Albisete, LP UI guy, has put a lot of effort planning richer pages (including a lot more information and apt-url links) for ubuntu packages.
[16:38] <cprov> those changes will start to land soon in edge.lp.net, so stay tuned.
[16:42] <cprov> I got quiet again ... I've asked how many people are using the Soyuz bits in the LP API and no one answered. I guess it means we need some more advertising/documentation on that.
[16:45] <cprov> It's worth noting that Debian sources are being imported by Launchpad for a long time already and it's synced 2x a day (soon going to follow 4x a day), https://edge.launchpad.net/debian
[16:45] <cprov> and APIs also work for them.
[16:46] <cprov> There is probably some use for that, even if you are not directly involved with the ubuntu community.
[16:49] <cprov> We are approaching the end of the session, feel free to ask more question directly to me, use the Launchpad 'contact this user' feature at https://edge.launchpad.net/~cprov :)
[16:51] <cprov> That's pretty much it. It was a pleasure to talk about Soyuz again and It is good to hear that the interest in having its code released as FOSS still high.
[16:52] <cprov> it will certainly count in the paths we are choosing ...
[16:52] <cprov> oh, last-minute question
[16:52] <cprov>  james_w: QUESTION: how's progress going on giving us a "Sync this!" button for Ubuntu to pull in changes from Debian? I understand that is being worked towards as well.
[16:53] <cprov> james_w: good point! yes, that's one of the things that are in our pipeline for 3.0
[16:54] <cprov> james_w: I admit it's getting hard to find a place for it in the middle of all the other features going on, but I believe it will make it.
[16:54] <cprov> browse to a debian source, and if you have upload permissions to ubuntu there will be a 'Sync it!' button
[16:55] <jcastro> 5 minute warning!
[16:55] <cprov> click on it, choose ubuntu and then the source will be copied to ubuntu with a re-constructed changelog, which will include all the pertinent changes occurred in debian that are being synced to ubuntu.
[16:56] <cprov> That's it for Soyuz. Thanks everyone for their patience and all the great questions!
[16:57] <james_w> thanks cprov
[16:57] <bencrisford> cheers (Y)
[16:57] <jcastro> thanks cprov!
[16:57] <^arky^> thanks cprov
[16:57] <jcastro> ok, in a few minutes dpm will kick off with Demystifying Launchpad Translations
[17:01] <jcastro> dpm: take it away!
[17:01] <jcastro> this is dpm's first session ever so let's try to ask good questions!
[17:01] <dpm> ok, thanks jcastro
[17:01] <dpm> soren, hello everyone, thank you very much for coming and be warmly welcome to this session on Launchpad Translations!
[17:02] <dpm> My name is David Planella, and I have very recently joined the Community team as the Ubuntu Translations Coordinator.
[17:02] <dpm> As such I've been appointed as the Fourth Horseman under Jono Bacon's lead, riding along with Jorge Castro and Daniel Holbach in this exciting journey.
[17:03] <dpm> My task will be to work with and within the Ubuntu translations community to provide the best translations in the free software world
[17:03] <dpm> - as simple as that.
[17:03] <k-milogars> good
[17:03] <dpm> I strongly believe that software should be available in every user's language, and in pursuing this goal I've also been a long time contributor to free/open source translations in my own language,
[17:04] <dpm> which is a voluntary task I will continue doing, as usual, whenever time allows.
[17:04] <dpm> First of all, a few words on how this session will be structured: this will not be a tutorial on how to translate Ubuntu, but rather an overview of our cool translation tool and some of its features not many of you folks might yet be aware of.
[17:04] <dpm> Here are the topics I'd like to talk about today...
[17:04] <dpm> 1. Launchpad Translations
[17:05] <dpm> 2. Translation updates
[17:05] <dpm> 3. Giving back to upstream
[17:05] <dpm> 4. Upstream prevalence
[17:05] <dpm> 5. Quality assurance
[17:05] <dpm> 6. External projects
[17:05] <dpm> 7. Community
[17:05] <dpm> 8. Contributing to Ubuntu Translations
[17:05] <dpm> Questions and answers
[17:06] <dpm> It's a long list so I might have to shorten the topics if we get short on time
[17:06] <dpm> So without further ado...
[17:06] <dpm> Let's get going
[17:06] <dpm> = Launchpad Translations (1/8) =
[17:06] <dpm> As most of you probably know, Launchpad (http://launchpad.net) is the tool used for development and maintenance of Ubuntu.
[17:07] <dpm> To this respect, Translations are not an exception, and perfectly married to Ubuntu's goal to make translations a first class citizen in the open source scene, Launchpad sports a dedicated component for translating Ubuntu
[17:08] <dpm> This component goes by the very imaginative name of Launchpad Translations (https://translations.launchpad.net/), and it effectively allows translating Ubuntu in a distributed manner. In other words, it is an online translation tool.
[17:08] <dpm> Some of you might also know it by its codename: Rosetta
[17:09] <dpm> Ubuntu is currently translated in about 200 languages, with different levels of coverage, and can easily support more. You can see the languages supported of in our shiny new version of Ubuntu here: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+translations
[17:09] <dpm> These translations are made by the community, organised in several translation teams https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
[17:10] <dpm> And I must not forget to remark that many of these translations come also from upstream translation communities and are then imported into Ubuntu
[17:10] <dpm> = Translation updates (2/8) =
[17:11] <dpm> One of the big advantages of using Launchpad Translations is that it allows contributors to translate not even during the development stage of a given Ubuntu version, but also after the release - that is, during its complete life cycle
[17:11] <dpm> - why is that so cool?, I hear you ask
[17:12] <dpm> Enter language packs
[17:12] <dpm> These are software packages containing translations from Rosetta. They are released at regular intervals with snapshots of the translations contributors have been doing in Rosetta.
[17:12] <dpm> That effectively means that new translations are regularly released, independently from applications, and users can in short time see the improvements and fixes done by translators.
[17:13] <dpm> We build update packages for all stable releases once a week and upload them into the ubuntu-langpack PPA at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-langpack/+archive/ppa. From there they ultimately make their way into the distro, which is when users see the changes
[17:14] <dpm> More on language packs -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/LanguagePacks
[17:14] <dpm> = Giving back to upstream (3/8) =
[17:14] <dpm> We do not yet have a mechanism in place to automatically push Ubuntu translations to the upstream projects - i.e. the original projects from which some translations come from.
[17:15] <dpm> As those of you involved with translations will know, this is a tricky task.
[17:16] <dpm> There is a variety of projects with different translation formats, infrastructures and policies which make this difficult.
[17:17] <dpm> As an example, not all upstream communities would be happy with committing translations from Ubuntu translators automatically without having reviewed them themselves to make sure they comply with their guidelines.
[17:18] <dpm> In short, we have not yet -and I believe no one else has- developed a tool which is a substitute for human communication
[17:18] <dpm> As such, we encourage translation teams to work together with their local upstream translation communities, to make sure there is a smooth communication and to give back their contributions when necessary.
[17:19] <dpm> What we do provide is great flexibility in getting these translations out of Rosetta and back to upstream
[17:20] <dpm> * You can download the translations on a per-package-basis, either for a given language or for all languages
[17:20] <dpm> * The whole lot of language pack tarballs containing all translations for a given release can also be conveniently downloaded from here https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+language-packs (the Jaunty ones, as an example)
[17:21] <dpm> * We have also got a recent feature which allows you to export only the translation changes made in Launchpad -> http://blog.launchpad.net/translations/partial-po-export-holding-post
[17:22] <dpm> * In fact, even if you only contribute to upstream, this flexibility already gives you the best of both worlds: you can use the nice Rosetta interface to translate on line, download the translation when you are finished, and submit it upstream.
[17:23] <dpm> In any case, we are always happy to listen to what the community wants, and we are continually assessing new ways to improve this interaction with upstream
[17:23] <dpm> = Upstream prevalence (4/8) =
[17:23] <dpm> Still related to upstream, a few months ago we also implemented a feature addressing the wishes of the community and that maybe not so many people are aware of.
[17:23] <dpm> Now translations from upstream have got prevalence over the ones from Launchpad.
[17:24] <dpm> Yes, this means that the upstream strings effectively override those translated in Launchpad.
[17:25] <dpm> However, we want Ubuntu translation teams to keep their ability to decide whether a string needs to be changed in particular cases (e.g. in case of a translation mistake)
[17:26] <dpm> With this feature we get the original translations from upstream and the flexibility to either complete them or fix them in specific situations. Together with the fact that these fixes and new translations are soon released to the users through language packs, this make us unstoppable! ;)
[17:26] <dpm> You will find some more detailed information on this feature here -> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/2008-December/001994.html
[17:26] <dpm> = Quality assurance (5/8) =
[17:27] <dpm> Quality is also an important aspect in Ubuntu translations
[17:27] <dpm> In order to address this, we provide flexibility for each team to decide which permission policy they want to use for translations: https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/YourProject#Choosing%20a%20permissions%20policy
[17:28] <dpm> The Rosetta user interface also supports this in the form of translation suggestions, allowing a review process to be adopted by the team
[17:28] <dpm> We encourage each team to have a set of guidelines -including e.g. best practices, translation guides and glossaries-, and they can include a link to those in the Launchpad interface
[17:29] <dpm> In this way translators are aware of them an can conveniently click on those to consult them any time during translation
[17:29] <dpm> More information on translation stile guides here -> http://blog.launchpad.net/translations/translations-style-guides
[17:30] <dpm> = External projects (6/8) =
[17:32] <dpm> The Rosetta developers, not being contented with providing a tool for Ubuntu translations, went up a step higher towards world domination and allowed for external projects not associated with Ubuntu to use their translation tool.
[17:32] <dpm> Launchpad offers translation hosting for upstream projects, independently of where they are hosted and of which version control system they use. They can simply register to Launchpad for the use of translations.
[17:33] <dpm> In other words, a project can have its code and webpage hosted somewhere else than in Launchpad AND still use the benefits of Rosetta
[17:34] <dpm> ... AND make translators happy along the way
[17:34] <dpm> now how many of you translators here have had to chase a developer through mailing list for months on end until your translation was ever commited?
[17:35] <dpm> We want to help communities not specifically related to Ubuntu organize themselves and their efforts around Launchpad, and with that in mind we created the Launchpad Translators group
[17:36] <dpm> This is a project started and driven by community members who came up with the idea at the last UDS, with the purpose to help coordinating the efforts of translating external projects in Launchpad
[17:36] <dpm> You'll find more information about it here https://launchpad.net/~launchpad-translators
[17:37] <dpm> Least but not last, I'd like to mention that although it is not a requirement for external projects using Launchpad, if they choose bzr as their version control system they will get to taste two of the new features which came fresh from the Rosetta developers' oven:
[17:38] <dpm> Automatic imports of templates (http://blog.launchpad.net/translations/import-translation-templates-from-your-projects-bazaar-branches) and translations (http://blog.launchpad.net/translations/import-translations-from-bazaar-branches).
[17:39] <dpm> I'll leave it up to you to read more on those.
[17:39] <dpm> = Community (7/8) =
[17:39] <dpm> As in the rest of Ubuntu, we want translations to have an open workflow and welcome the community to participate in this process
[17:41] <dpm> As a means of pursuing this goal, we've got several open communication channels such as mailing lists, the Ubuntu wiki and IRC -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/Contact
[17:42] <dpm> We want to empower the community to be able to completely manage Ubuntu translations without the need of any developer intervention
[17:42] <dpm> To this purpose, we've got the Ubuntu Translation Coordinators team (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-translation-coordinator), of which some of the community members who are doing awesome contributions to translations are already part of.
[17:43] <dpm> There's already great progress there, but there's always more to do.
[17:43] <dpm> Freedom: as some of you may now, we are we are making Launchpad free software with the release 3.0 coming in July 2009!
[17:44] <dpm> = Contributing to Ubuntu Translations (8/8) =
[17:44] <dpm> soren, are you interested in translating Ubuntu into your own language and let yourself and many other users enjoy the results of your effort? Go on, contact your local team and contribute to the spirit of Ubuntu!
[17:45] <dpm> You can just go to https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators and look for the team in charge of the language you are interested in
[17:45] <dpm> Then you can click on its link and finally click on the 'Overview' tab of its Launchpad space
[17:46] <dpm> There you will find information on how to join them, and they will assist you in your first steps using Rosetta and translating Ubuntu
[17:47] <dpm> For general discussion and information, feel welcome to use any of the communication channels available -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/Contact
[17:47] <dpm> Here are a few additional links which will help you getting started:
[17:47] <dpm> • List of Ubuntu Translation teams: https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
[17:47] <dpm> • List of Launchpad Translation teams (for projects not specific to Ubuntu): https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/launchpad-translators
[17:48] <dpm> • How to translate Ubuntu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu
[17:48] <dpm> • Launchpad Translations help: https://help.launchpad.net/Translations
[17:48] <dpm> • Questions and answers on Launchpad translations: https://answers.launchpad.net/rosetta
[17:48] <dpm> And remember, many of those are wiki resources, so you can also contribute to expanding and improving them
[17:49] <dpm> phew, we covered a lot of ground there. Thanks for listening so far.
[17:49] <dpm> we'll now head up to the Q+A part
 Question: Why does some LP packages like say gnome-orca does not have the Translations link?
[17:51] <dpm> It might have been that a developer forgot to link to a release series, in any case, you can find the gnome-orca translations here -> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/gnome-orca
 QUESTION: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/xubuntu-docs/+pots/about-xubuntu/ar/+translate has several suggestions listed. Who approves/disapproves those?
[17:52] <dpm> The Ubuntu Arabic Translators team seems to be in charge of those -> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-ar
[17:52] <dpm> As such,  they can review and approve suggestions
[17:53] <dpm> You'll find more information, such as how to contact them, on their wiki page -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArabicTranslationTeam
[17:54] <jcastro> 5 minute warning!
[17:56] <jcastro> ok, we'll take a 5 minute break since there are no questions
[17:56] <jcastro> thanks dpm!
[17:56] <dpm> :)
[17:56] <dpm> Many thanks for listening and I hope to see some of you guys contributing to translations very soon!
[17:57] <spell> thanks dpm
[17:59] <jcastro> alright guys, next we have Flannel and Yasumoto on how to exhibit ubuntu at conferences
[17:59] <jcastro> so, whenever you guys are ready, take it away!
[18:00] <Yasumoto> will do, thanks jcastro
[18:00] <Yasumoto> Hello everyone, and welcome to our topic. Today we're going to be covering how to Exhibit Ubuntu at Conferences.
[18:00] <Yasumoto> This is mainly aimed at LoCos, since they are typically the groups that will be representing Ubuntu in the area.
[18:00] <Yasumoto> I'm Joe Smith, a member of the Ubuntu California team. I'm also a member of the Southern California Linux Expo's Community Relations committee, which is in charge of organizing the community groups that exhibit on the expo hall floor.
[18:01] <Yasumoto> Conferences are a great place to meet new people and get together with your friends to have a great time.
[18:01] <Yasumoto> A lot more local Open Source conferences are being organized, which is really nice, and they usually have a show floor to allow different groups to exhibit.
[18:02] <Yasumoto> Most of these have space for sponsors (typically companies that can pay to support the conference) and community groups.
[18:02] <Yasumoto> These are generally local volunteers, such as Fedora Ambassadors, LoCo teams, or other members of community projects.
[18:02] <Yasumoto> Most of these have space for sponsors (typically companies that can pay to support the conference) and community groups.
[18:02] <Yasumoto> These are generally local volunteers, such as Fedora Ambassadors, LoCo teams, or other members of community projects.
[18:02] <Yasumoto> These are generally local volunteers, such as Fedora Ambassadors, LoCo teams, or other members of community projects.
[18:02]  * Flannel bumps the needle.
[18:03] <Yasumoto> So, any general questions about conferences?
[18:03] <Yasumoto> Flannel: thanks :)
[18:04] <Yasumoto> Attendees walk around the hall, looking for some cool conversation and schwag, which they usually find in abundance.
[18:04] <Yasumoto> Once you and your LoCo team hear about a conference that you all want to attend and work a booth at, you need to get in touch with the event organizers and register.
[18:04] <Yasumoto> You'll want to have someone take point on this. Look through the conference website for the person in charge of community groups, also know as dotOrgs (because they typically have websites such as openssh.org)
[18:04] <Yasumoto> Find the "How to apply as an exhibitor" section (such as this one for SCaLE http://scale7x.socallinuxexpo.org/conference-info/call-for-dotorg-exhibitors) and follow the steps.
[18:05] <Yasumoto> Be sure to CC any other group members that are working with you to set up the conference, and be sure to email the list regularly detailing your progress.
[18:05] <Yasumoto> Sometimes, it's good to just email even if it's just "I'm still waiting to hear back from them, but I'll send them a followup email in a few days just in case"
[18:06] <Yasumoto> This lets your group know that you've got the boring paperwork under control, which is something you don't want to be worrying about.
[18:06] <Yasumoto> Try to be helpful and respectful, but definitely ask them any questions you have, and don't be shy.
[18:06] <Yasumoto> If they ask you a question, or for more information, work with your group and get back to them in a reasonable amount of time.
[18:07] <Yasumoto> It's their job to help you out :)
[18:07] <Yasumoto> Once you've registered the team, you need to double check and make sure your members are taken care of.
[18:07] <Yasumoto> This generally includes both housing and conference registration.
[18:07] <Yasumoto> Most conferences give a certain number of passes to each exhibiting group, and get a list of names before the event so they know who to expect.
[18:08] <Yasumoto> This leads to figuring out who will volunteer, which I'll get to in a bit.
[18:08] <Yasumoto> Conferences usually are able to find a discounted group rate for the hotel, which is nice.
[18:08] <Yasumoto> It may not be the cheapest place to stay at, so for those on a budget, it's good to look around.
[18:08] <Yasumoto> Don't wait until the last minute! It's important to get your hotel booked as soon as possible.
[18:09] <Yasumoto> You' don't want to find out that the hotel rooms are filled, and you'll have to be at one that's across the city.
[18:09] <Yasumoto> So that's generally it for the conference-related work that you need to do beforehand.
[18:09] <Yasumoto> Any questions about registration, or preparation logistics?
[18:09] <Flannel> QUESTION:  Can any LoCo or ubuntu community member set up and exhibit or do you have to get permission to do that from someone?
[18:10] <Yasumoto> Surprisingly, I generally found the answer to be no, which I thought is pretty cool.
[18:11] <Flannel> Just make sure you're not duplicating effort
[18:11] <Yasumoto> The one catch is that you'll need to make sure that you don't have two groups trying to represent at one conference, which can be troublesome.
[18:11] <Yasumoto> If you've spent some time in your area, you should be pretty tied in with any Ubuntu community members, and you can coordinate.
[18:12] <Flannel> Grantbow> QUESTION: by "mail the list" do you mean the loco's own mail list?
[18:13] <Yasumoto> Yes, I did. That's actually shorthand for "the place your LoCo communicates with each other"
[18:13] <Yasumoto> mailing lists are usually ideal, as they can be read by people that aren't online when you send it out (unlike IRC), which is nice
[18:14] <Yasumoto> Alright, moving on
[18:14] <Yasumoto> In order to get your LoCo ready, it takes a bit more work :)
[18:14] <Yasumoto> This is where you need to focus on knowing your volunteers, setting up a schedule, and getting a list of things to bring.
[18:14] <Yasumoto> So your volunteers will be the members of your LoCo that want to participate.
[18:15] <Yasumoto> Conferences are a really great opportunity for people to all pitch in for an event that's usually a bit larger than normal ones.
[18:16] <Yasumoto> I've found that the team Wiki pages are a good way to organize who's going to help out.
[18:16] <Yasumoto> This is where you can set up a schedule, starting from when the conference's expo hall opens until it closes
[18:17] <Yasumoto> It's generally helpful to set up shifts of about two to three hours, as that gives people time to walk around and grab some food.
[18:17] <Yasumoto> I've found that most people like to hang out at the booth regardless, because there's a lot of energy and it's really fun :)
[18:18] <Yasumoto> You'll also want to set up a list of items you need to bring.
[18:18] <Yasumoto> For an example, I'll direct you guys to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Scale7x
[18:18] <Flannel> Grantbow> QUESTION: Especially for smaller events, should organizers be prepared in the case that few others help out?
[18:19] <Yasumoto> Yes, definitely.
[18:19] <Yasumoto> There can be the case where certain people won't be able to make it, so you should have a few people around that can assist as needed.
[18:19] <Yasumoto> So on the wiki page, we have a list of stuff
[18:20] <Yasumoto> This stuff can be rather nebulous, and range from demo computers to snacks for the team
[18:21] <Yasumoto> For our booth at the Southern California Linux Expo, the conference provided a network drop and a power outlet, which made life easier on us.
[18:21] <Yasumoto> We also brought in some extra power strips and a mini linksys router, since we wanted to set up demo computers
[18:22] <Yasumoto> If people have computers (preferably laptops, since they're easier to carry!) to demo Ubuntu, that's great.
[18:22] <Yasumoto> Sometimes attendees may not be familiar with ubuntu, or even linux in general, so it's nice to have it there to let them explore :)
[18:23] <Yasumoto> That worked out for us, but the key is to ask your team what you guys want your booth to be.
[18:24] <Yasumoto> Once you guys get a list of what you'll need, that's when you can set up a table
[18:24] <Yasumoto> This'll let your team know what you still need, and help people check off what they can bring
[18:26] <Yasumoto> So once you have determined what you need, and the schedule for working the booth, it's time to get ready for the actual day
[18:27] <Yasumoto> About two weeks beforehand, you'll want to go through the list and prune out obscure/unpopular items
[18:27] <Yasumoto> You should do this as a team, if not at an in-person meeting, then IRC will work.
[18:28] <Yasumoto> It's also a good idea to touch base with the conference organizer, just to make sure everything's going as expected.
[18:29] <Yasumoto> Conferences usually have a setup time, which is when you should show up with all your gear and get it setup.
[18:30] <Yasumoto> Sometimes this is actually the day before the conference, which will allow you ample time to get things together (maybe even some time to head back and pick up anything you may have forgotten)
[18:31] <Yasumoto> Make sure that you're keeping tabs on your volunteers, you want to make sure that everyone's on time and bringing what you need.
[18:31] <Yasumoto> At set up, you've have an opportunity to chat with other exhibitors as they're setting up, and there's a lot of pent-up energy, since everyone's excited for the event to start.
[18:32] <Yasumoto> Some conferences start up the Expo Hall after their Keynote presentation, so if there are members that are interested in attending, you should feel free to check it out.
[18:33] <Yasumoto> After the keynote, the floodgates open, and people will make a mad dash to your booth :)
[18:33] <Yasumoto> This is when all the preparation starts to pay off.
[18:34] <Yasumoto> You'll meet a very wide array of people, from students to CIOs.
[18:34] <duanedesign> 5/quit
[18:34] <Yasumoto> It's generally best to be friendly and open, most people will have a question they want to know
[18:35] <Yasumoto> Don't worry if you don't know the answer off the top of your head, maybe another team member will know the answer, and you can help get them together to talk about the topic.
[18:35] <Yasumoto> Sometimes, if it's an obscure question or you're not sure, the best thing is to point them in the right direction, maybe telling them an IRC channel, for instance.
[18:36] <Yasumoto> It's usually helpful to read up on some topics beforehand, such as the latest Release Notes, the past few Ubuntu Weekly News, and maybe some general technology news sites.
[18:37] <Yasumoto> Any questions so far?
[18:37] <Flannel> rufong> QUESTION:where has your team been meeting IRL? (to plan for the conference)
[18:38] <Yasumoto> I'm a student at Chapman University, and it's pretty easy to meet up in one of the computer labs on campus, so that's been our default meeting place for a while.
[18:38] <Yasumoto> Restaurants are also a good place to meet up
[18:38] <Yasumoto> The important part is somewhere that has a warm and friendly atmosphere
[18:39] <Yasumoto> Oh, I think I misunderstood the question a bit.
[18:39] <Yasumoto> We haven't actually had any in-person planning meetings, we've done it all on IRC.
[18:40] <Yasumoto> Using a combination of our bi-weekly IRC meetings and the mailing list to communicate, and our wiki page for static lists has served us well.
[18:41] <Yasumoto> We're a little hindered in California because of the size of the state, it makes it difficult to get everyone together.
[18:41] <Flannel> Grantbow> QUESTION: which wiki pages have been most helpful to you in peparing for conferences?  such as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ConferenceTopTips and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoComputerFairHowto
[18:41] <Yasumoto> good question, I actually haven't seen the Fair howto before
[18:42] <Yasumoto> I think I skimmed those pages, but didn't really get much help from them. I'm planning on distilling a lot of the info from this talk into updating the wiki pages a bit.
[18:42] <Yasumoto> But there's also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ConferenceAppearances
[18:42] <Yasumoto> Which is where you should list that your LoCo will be at the conference
[18:43] <Yasumoto> This is mainly a history, and also helps to prevent groups from stepping on each other's toes
[18:43] <Yasumoto> There's also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences
[18:43] <Yasumoto> Which has some information about some support from Canonical for LoCos at conferences, which is nice
[18:44] <Flannel> Alright, so.
[18:44] <Flannel> We've already learned a bit on how to set up and plan for a conference.
[18:44] <Flannel> But what do we want to plan for our booth?
[18:44] <Flannel> The purpose of the booth is to increase awareness and get the word out (and to have fun!)
[18:44] <Flannel> So we want to make sure whatever we plan fits those needs.
[18:45] <Flannel> Another thing to remember is you'll be dealing with hundreds of people over the course of the day,
[18:45] <Flannel> all of whom have different interests, needs, and levels of knowledge about Ubuntu (and linux).
[18:45] <Flannel> You need to make sure people are engaged, and information is available.
[18:45] <Flannel> How you do this is up to you, there's almost no wrong way to do it.
[18:45] <Flannel> What we always end up doing is fairly simple and straight forward:
[18:45] <Flannel> We have a few computers open to the public for people to play with,
[18:46] <Flannel> and we also have CDs to give out.
[18:46] <Flannel> (and then of course, we're around to talk with people)
[18:46] <Flannel> For actual schwag type stuff, we rely almost entirely on the LoCo conference pack from Canonical. ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences )
[18:46] <Flannel> It provides an assortment of pens, flyers, stickers, and some t-shirts.
[18:47] <Flannel> We usually give the shirts to people who will be working the booth.
[18:47] <Flannel> In the past we've also purchased a bunch of hats, so people working the booth have a distinguishing feature.
[18:47] <Flannel> One other thing we do is make nametags for everyone working the booth : http://www.nhaines.com/ubuntu/california/
[18:47] <Flannel> These will help people walking by know who to ask for information, and can provide a little more incentive for people to help out.
[18:48] <Flannel> Another thing we've found works well is the way we organize our booth.
[18:48] <Flannel> Many booths have two walls and a table in front, people sit behind the table and talk to you with the table littered with items.
[18:48] <Flannel> What we've been lucky enough to do, is to put our tables near the walls of our booth (we actually make a U, with the opening towards the aisle)
[18:49] <Flannel> and then we stand inside/in front of our booth, and talk to people.
[18:49] <Flannel> It provides a really welcoming atmosphere (and gives us a little more room)
[18:51] <Flannel> (We
[18:51] <Flannel> (we're seeing about getting you a picture of that, but in the meantime)
[18:52] <Flannel> Again, you want to make sure you're there to talk with a whole range of people.  And yes, some people will be there just to get a sticker or a CD, or whatever.
[18:52] <Flannel> Earlier we had a question about whether we do installfests at a conference.
[18:52] <Flannel> It wouldn't really be a good idea at the booth, since it'll be busy and there will be a lot of people around.
[18:53] <Flannel> If you have individuals who want to install, it might be best to take them aside and do it one-on-one
[18:53] <Flannel> The same goes, as we found last time, for bug jams
[18:54] <Flannel> We tried to do a bug jam (as part of Global Bug Jam) in a separate room from the expo, and it didn't turn out so well.
[18:54] <Flannel> People at conferences want to experience the conference, not do bugwork as we've found.
[18:54] <Flannel> We've only got five minutes left, and we haven't covered nearly as much as we hoped we would.
[18:54] <Yasumoto> Here's a picture of the booth from SCaLE6x: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nathanhaines/2353642188/
[18:55] <Flannel> I'm going to go ahead and open it up to questions.  And then touch base on a few more things while we wrap this up.
[18:56] <Flannel> In that image-We put demo computers on the yellow table, facing left (out), for people to play with.
[18:56] <Flannel> CDs-- We give out burned ones.  No one seems to have an issue with it.
[18:56] <Flannel> To make them look a little better, we've made some sleeves that we print and fold up, and slide the CDs into.
[18:56] <Flannel> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/CDSleeves
[18:57] <Yasumoto> Having Yellow, Red, and Orange table cloths really helped the booth stand out, and were pretty cheap
[18:57] <Flannel> It basically hides our horrible handwriting on the CD itself, and provides some information on the CD itself (as opposed to a plastic jacket or whatever).
[18:58] <Flannel> We burn CDs at the conference, because it allows us to give people what they want (we get a lot of Edubuntu actually)
[18:58] <Flannel> We're currently writing software to faciliate this, make it almost hands-free.  But it's not working yet.
[18:58] <Flannel> We've found that with two burners, you can generally keep up with a conference.
[18:59] <Flannel> Anyway, we're running out of time.  We'd be more than happy to talk with you later if you have questions or comments or want to discuss things.
[18:59] <Flannel> genii> QUESTION: What do we do if our LoCo team seems inactive but we want to hold/participate in conferences?'
[19:00] <Flannel> We've successfully run a booth with four people, so if you can get a dedicated core group, you'll be fine.  (You can run it with two, but you don't really want to be there solid all day)
[19:00] <Flannel> Need to eat, etc.
[19:00] <nhaines> Make every attempt to contact your LoCo, but if that fails, gather some friends together and do it!
[19:00] <Yasumoto> Thanks a bunch for listening, get out there and Spread Ubuntu :)
[19:00] <Flannel> Again, thank you all for coming.  You can find us in #ubuntu-california among other places.
[19:02] <charlie-tca> And, next we have chris Gregan with OEM Community Netbook Testing
[19:02] <cgregan> Hello All
[19:02] <ActionParsnip> howdy
[19:02] <cgregan> Can we get a channel topic change?
[19:03] <kenvandine_wk> i tried
[19:03] <kenvandine_wk> didn't let me
[19:03] <kenvandine_wk> great
[19:03] <cgregan> Excellent!
[19:03] <cgregan> Ok
[19:03] <cgregan> A little background
[19:03] <cgregan> I am the QA Manager for the OEM Services Team in Canonical
[19:03] <cgregan> For those of you not familiar
[19:03] <cgregan> we customize Ubuntu Desktop
[19:04] <cgregan> For release as pre-installed systems on Netbooks and MIDs
[19:04] <cgregan> Our recent releases were Dell minis
[19:04] <cgregan> and HP mini
[19:05] <cgregan> We provide custom interface design and hardware enablement as well as maintenance after the fact for end users
[19:05] <cgregan> which brings us to the reason for this session
[19:06] <cgregan> I have been organizing an effort to build a community of testers with netbooks to provide a review stage before we push security updates and fixes
[19:06] <cgregan> [link] https://launchpad.net/~oem-community-qa
[19:06] <cgregan> This is our team page in LP
[19:07] <cgregan> The goal is to have more eyes on these proposed fixes before the general public sees them
[19:07] <cgregan> So we can continue to maintain a high level of quality as the number of netbooks rapidly expands over the next year
[19:08] <cgregan> So...how do we do this
[19:08] <cgregan> The team is associated with a mailing list and a proposed repo
[19:09] <cgregan> When you join you get the sources.list entries and updates from the list on approaching releases
[19:09] <cgregan> Who are we looking for.....
[19:10] <cgregan> Anyone with a Dell mini9, 12, or 10 that came with Ubuntu pre-installed
[19:10] <cgregan> Anyone with UNR installed on a netbook
[19:10] <cgregan> And as the number of shipping units grows, anyone who has one
[19:11] <cgregan> The process...once you are joined up is familiar
[19:12] <cgregan> Add the proposed repos to your sources.list
[19:12] <cgregan> update
[19:12] <cgregan> and report problems
[19:12] <cgregan> there are projects established for bugs as well
[19:12] <cgregan> Dell users have https://launchpad.net/dell-mini
[19:13] <cgregan> UNR has two
[19:13] <cgregan> https://launchpad.net/netbook-remix   for general issues with the release
[19:13] <cgregan> https://launchpad.net/netbook-remix-launcher  for issues just with the custom launcher/desktop
[19:14] <cgregan> We also encourage triage, fix submission, and any other activity that would help
[19:15] <cgregan> Ubuntu is growing rapidly in the netbook range and we expect MANY more devices shipping with Ubuntu
[19:15] <cgregan> Any effort to lend a hand would be very appreciated
[19:16] <cgregan> In addition to those of you with devices already.....there has also been interest in growing a core team of triagers and tester who would be provided devices in exchange for a commitment
[19:17] <cgregan> This idea has been used before by Canonical, and I am exploring this as an option here as well.
[19:17] <cgregan> Keep and eye on the ubuntu-testing channel for details
[19:18] <cgregan> No promises :-)
[19:19] <cgregan> I'm am also soliciting ideas from the community for general improvements to our shipping images
[19:20] <cgregan> If you do not want to necessarily connect to a proposed repo and test
[19:20] <cgregan> you can help out with usability bugs, proposed additions to our base applications
[19:20] <cgregan> suggestions on new features
[19:21] <cgregan> all of which can be entered in the LP projects listed above
[19:21] <cgregan> So I'd like to pause here to see if there are any questions that have been prompted by what I've discussed so far
[19:24] <cgregan> ali1234 has a question about the usefulness of UNR due to netbook power
[19:24] <brianchidester> ali1234> QUESTION: given that the x86 netbooks are more powerful than the main workstations some people were using as little as two years ago, why is there a need for things like UNR?
[19:24] <cgregan> UNR is not designed as a means to better performance
[19:24] <cgregan> It is actually a full version of Ubuntu Desktop
[19:25] <cgregan> it uses just as much in the way of resources as the normal distro release
[19:25] <cgregan> The reason for UNR is screen realestate
[19:25] <cgregan> and touch
[19:26] <cgregan> Netbooks tend to have sub 9" screen
[19:26] <brianchidester> QUESTION: Is this lp team intended only for oem versions of UNR, or also the generic UNR?
[19:27] <cgregan> this makes it difficult from a user's standpoint to get to all of the icons and manipulate the environment
[19:27] <cgregan> So we designed something with a larger UI
[19:27] <cgregan> Next question is about the LP team
[19:28] <cgregan> The team is designed for units that shipped with UNR or Dell desktop from the factory
[19:28] <cgregan> With the recent major release of UNR by the distro team this has shifted a bit
[19:29] <cgregan> Although I would like anyone with a netbook running UNR to join, our focus is on pre-installed systems
[19:30] <cgregan> There is still some work on the shifting of responsibility for UNR from OEM to distro so I am still encouraging anyone to join the team and help out
[19:31] <cgregan> There is another small quirk that this question bring up
[19:32] <cgregan> There will be some units...the HP mini comes to mind...that there will be no public LP project or repo for
[19:32] <cgregan> Users with this situation are encouraged to submit issues with the equipment manufacturer first
[19:32] <cgregan> but
[19:33] <cgregan> we will be happy to hear suggestions from them as well
[19:33] <cgregan> basically we love feedback
[19:33] <cgregan> it helps us design an build better systems
[19:34] <cgregan> Any other questions? I am nearing the end of my prepared material
[19:34] <cgregan> Ok.....
[19:35] <cgregan> So there is one last aspect of this community effort that is a little different
[19:35] <cgregan> We prefer positive response as well as bugs
[19:36] <cgregan> So if you are a member
[19:36] <cgregan> and you receive a notification email of updates for testing
[19:37] <rufong> QUESTION: you mentioned Dell and HP, have you had contact with any other OEMs, contacted them? upcoming mass shipments with ubuntu?
[19:37] <cgregan> We like +1 posted to the email list in response if the update had no problems
[19:37] <cgregan> Or if you feel the update could still go out to the general user despite an issue
 QUESTION: are there any tools volunteers can use to create automated test reports?
[19:38] <cgregan> rufong: We are in contact with may ODM and OEM companies
[19:38] <cgregan> unfortunately
[19:38] <cgregan> I cannot mention anything about them until a product actually shipd
[19:39] <cgregan> s/shipd/ships
[19:39] <cgregan> due to legal obligations
[19:39] <cgregan> But rest assured, you will be seeing more and more devices with Ubuntu in the near future
[19:40] <cgregan> pwnguin: tools question
[19:40] <cgregan> Automated test reports, I'm not sure I'm clear so I will answer both ways
[19:41] <cgregan> Automated reports: there is currently no tools for producing reports
[19:41] <cgregan> well...no approved tool being used...if you know of one I suggest you get in touch with me. I am always looking for new way to manage testing
[19:42] <cgregan> Automated tools: We are beginning a large automation effort based around Checkbox
[19:42] <cgregan> In co-ordination with the Distro QA team, we are using Apport, LDTP, and checkbox to create a comprehensive test suite
[19:43] <cgregan> We could definitely use some help if anyone has some LDTP skills and a spare cycle or two
[19:43] <cgregan> there is a wiki tracking the early efforts
[19:44] <brianchidester> Is there a link for that?
[19:44] <cgregan> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/Desktop/Coverage
[19:44] <brianchidester> rufong> QUESTION:do you feel Ubuntu is/is becoming the goto OS for netbooks?
[19:45] <cgregan> rufong: Good question....and a difficult one to answer
[19:45] <cgregan> what I do know is that the market has changed from Canonical going to manufacturers trying to convince them to ship Ubuntu
[19:46] <cgregan> To a market where manufacturers are coming to Canonical trying to convince us to work with them on a product
[19:46] <cgregan> We are also moving into spaces where other distros once had a foot hold
[19:47] <cgregan> Whether or not that makes us the goto remains to be seen, but the pace of sales is advancing
[19:48] <cgregan> Ok....I think that wraps it up for me
[19:48] <cgregan> I'd like to encourage anyone help out as they see fit so we can continue to impress the average user and build a truly impressive resume' of netbooks shipping Ubuntu
[19:49] <cgregan> Any last questions?
[19:51] <cgregan> rufong
[19:51] <cgregan> Touch is a growing area
[19:51] <ActionParsnip> hey all
[19:51] <cgregan> but we feel it is still a little ways off
[19:52] <cgregan> we have support built in, and are waiting for devices
[19:54] <ActionParsnip> with netbooks usually having a small internal drive, is there a view to having smoe kind of package cleanup script post install to remove unnecessary packages
[19:55] <okolotas> let's figth ! http://chucknorrrris.mybrute.com
[19:55] <cgregan> ActionParsnip: funny you ask
[19:56] <charlie-tca> 5 minute warning
[19:56] <cgregan> I recently entered a bug pointing out that Update-manager does not run cleanup by default
[19:56] <ActionParsnip> i've noticed that large amounts of data are wasted by ubuntu with a lot of drivers that simply dont apply to the system, for example a system with an nvidia video card has no need for an intel video drivers etc
[19:56] <cgregan> So we will be looking at that
[19:57] <ActionParsnip> i personally have my own script to carve out what i dont need and can get a full system off 2.7Gb right now
[19:57] <cgregan> ActionParsnip: this is the kind of issues we would like to see in our LP projects as bugs
[19:57] <ActionParsnip> i'll do it when i get time, and im sober
[19:57] <ActionParsnip> can we please change the default setup to put home on a seperate partition in some way too
[19:58] <charlie-tca> ActionParsnip: questions and comments in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[19:58] <ActionParsnip> i see
[19:58] <ActionParsnip> so is this like a lecture room?
[19:58] <charlie-tca> yes
[19:58] <ActionParsnip> gotcha
[19:59] <charlie-tca> TWO minutes
[19:59] <cgregan> I'll answer that though
[19:59] <cgregan> We are often subject to the requirements of the customer
[19:59] <cgregan> in most cases they require a specific setup for partitioning
[20:00] <cgregan> where we can we promote better setup
[20:00] <cgregan> but often we have no say
[20:00] <cgregan> Thanks everyone
[20:00] <charlie-tca> Announcing the great Ben-Crisford giving and introduction to Gaming with Ubuntu next
[20:01] <charlie-tca> As usual, please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[20:02] <charlie-tca> s/and/an
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Ben-Crisford: whenever you are ready
[20:04] <jcastro> ok, the chanserv is offline so we can't change the topic, so let's just drive on
[20:04] <Ben-Crisford> ok :)
[20:04] <Ben-Crisford> Hello everyone
[20:05] <Ben-Crisford> This session is gonna be all about gaming under ubuntu
[20:05] <Ben-Crisford> ubuntu wasn't designed for games, and most games werent designed for ubuntu
[20:06] <Ben-Crisford> so it was always gonna be tricky
[20:06] <Ben-Crisford> but gaming under ubuntu is very possible
[20:06] <Ben-Crisford> :)
[20:06] <Ben-Crisford> as there is alot of different topics to do with gaming with ubuntu, my session will have a number of categories
[20:06] <Ben-Crisford> there will be a short QA at the end of each one, and a longer QA at the end
[20:07] <Ben-Crisford> so lets start off by talking about emulation
[20:07] <Ben-Crisford> emulation, is where ubuntu kind of "pretends" its windows, in order for it to run games or applications
[20:08] <Ben-Crisford> i am only gonna scrape the surface of emulation as the session after me (i believe) covers it in more detail
[20:08] <YokoZar> beep beep boop boop: I'll be talking more about Wine in the session after this :)
[20:08] <Ben-Crisford> :)
[20:08] <Ben-Crisford> for the purposes of my session today
[20:09] <Ben-Crisford> we will be talking about playonlinux
[20:09] <Ben-Crisford> which is based on wine heavily
[20:09] <Ben-Crisford> before I begin, does anyone have any questions, or requests of topics for me to mention?
[20:09] <Ben-Crisford> please say them in ubuntu-classroom-chat
[20:10] <Ben-Crisford> i'm hoping that means i can continue
[20:11] <Ben-Crisford> :)
[20:11] <Ben-Crisford> the website for playonlinux is: www.playonlinux.com
[20:12] <Ben-Crisford> to install playonlinux simply type these following lines into terminal:
[20:12] <Ben-Crisford> sudo wget http://deb.mulx.net/playonlinux_hardy.list -O /etc/apt/sources.list.d/
[20:12] <Ben-Crisford> playonlinux.list
[20:12] <Ben-Crisford> wget -q http://deb.mulx.net/pol.gpg -O- | sudo apt-key add -
[20:12] <Ben-Crisford> sudo apt-get update
[20:12] <Ben-Crisford> sudo apt-get install playonlinux
[20:12] <Ben-Crisford> but obviously that depends on your distrorelease
[20:12] <Ben-Crisford> http://www.playonlinux.com/en/download.html
[20:13] <Ben-Crisford> click ubuntu to get a list of download methods for each release
[20:14] <Ben-Crisford> POL (playonlinux) is pretty self-explanatary
[20:14] <Ben-Crisford> once installed, there will be a shortcut in Accessories> Games
[20:14] <Ben-Crisford> or you can run by typing 'playonlinux' into terminal
[20:15] <Ben-Crisford> i imagine alot of you play valve games
[20:15] <Ben-Crisford> (CSS, half life, day of defeat, left 4 dead)
[20:15] <Ben-Crisford> i personally only have CSS
[20:15] <Ben-Crisford> but I can run it with hardly any trouble
[20:15] <Ben-Crisford> launching through steam
[20:16] <Ben-Crisford> which i installed through playonlinux
[20:16] <Ben-Crisford> that is about it for our very-short emulation category
[20:16] <Ben-Crisford> as i dont want to invade the territory of the next session
[20:17] <Ben-Crisford> feel free to ask any questions you may have in the next few minutes
[20:17] <Ben-Crisford> and i will do my best to answer
[20:18] <Ben-Crisford> some other emulators include...:  CEDEGA, ScummVM, and of course wine which will be covered in the next session :)
[20:18] <charlie-tca> Do you want me to pass the questions over to here/
[20:18] <Ben-Crisford> QUESTION: do you have anything coming up for people who don't like FPS games? :P
[20:18] <Ben-Crisford> charlie-tca: that would be fantastic
[20:18] <Ben-Crisford> ill just answer this one
[20:19] <Ben-Crisford> ANSWER: Sorry if I was confusing
[20:19] <Ben-Crisford> playonlinux is not just for fps :P
[20:19] <Ben-Crisford> and many racing games/platform games will launch through steam also
 QUESTION: why is using playonlinux any better from just using wine to sort out the configuration of your games
[20:20] <Ben-Crisford> to be honest, i dont fully understand, as im sure not many do apart from the POL developers
[20:20] <Ben-Crisford> but
[20:20] <Ben-Crisford> on there website they say this:
[20:21] <Ben-Crisford> PlayOnLinux is based on Wine, and so profits from all its possibilities yet it keeps the user away from its complexity while exploiting some of its advanced functions.
[20:21] <Ben-Crisford> and if you want to debate that comment
[20:21] <Ben-Crisford> then im not the person, you should contact the POL team
[20:21] <Ben-Crisford> next?
 How much of a performance loss do you get playing through Steam?
[20:22] <Ben-Crisford> hmm, its hard to say...
[20:22] <Ben-Crisford> because you still play through steam on windows, its just that steam is still essentially running the game
[20:22] <Ben-Crisford> i admit, that my PC gets probably hotter than usual
[20:22] <Ben-Crisford> but i have suffered a performance loss anyway recently
[20:23] <Ben-Crisford> which im trying to fix
[20:23] <Ben-Crisford> so...  i cant really say
[20:23] <Ben-Crisford> sorry
[20:23] <Ben-Crisford> next?
 QUESTION: in most opengl games, theres no mouse cursor. used driver is fglrx. what could be the problem?
[20:24] <mikechelen> some xwindows thing
[20:24] <Ben-Crisford> i'm no emulator developer...  i just know the essential idea behind them, maybe save that question for Scott Richie in the net question
[20:24] <Ben-Crisford> sorry scott if you dont know either
[20:24] <Ben-Crisford> :S
[20:24] <Ben-Crisford> next?
[20:24] <charlie-tca> Maybe that should have a bug report files?
[20:24] <Ben-Crisford> playonlinux?
[20:25] <mikechelen> try another driver version maybe? envyng sometimes helps
[20:25] <Ben-Crisford> im quite anxious to move on if thats ok guys
[20:25] <Ben-Crisford> after all next session is entirely about emulation
[20:25] <Ben-Crisford> :)
[20:26] <Ben-Crisford> to finish off
[20:26] <Ben-Crisford> ill talk about free and open source games
[20:26] <Ben-Crisford> but first
 QUESTION : any news about idTech5 for Linux / Wolfeinstein / Rage / Doom 4 native clients ? :-)
[20:27] <Ben-Crisford> im sorry -  i dont know :(, i dont follow those projects
[20:27] <Ben-Crisford> but i think there is an ubuntu gaming team recently formed
[20:27] <Ben-Crisford> at #ubuntu-gaming
[20:27] <Ben-Crisford> same server
[20:28] <Ben-Crisford> they might know more than me =]
[20:28] <Ben-Crisford> anyway, charlie-tca i think we should move on now
[20:28] <Ben-Crisford> :)
[20:28] <charlie-tca> Yes,
[20:28] <Ben-Crisford> but
[20:28] <Ben-Crisford> feel free to ask emulation questions in the main QA at the end
[20:29] <Ben-Crisford> yesterday (so very short notice) i asked michael sierks and chewit to say a few words abot their projects
[20:29] <Ben-Crisford> they have very kindly agreed
[20:29] <Ben-Crisford> michael sierks is the founder of spux project, and chewit (i believe is the founder, correct me if im wrong) of gfire
[20:30] <Ben-Crisford> so
[20:30] <Ben-Crisford> im going to invite michael sierks to introduce his project briefly
[20:30] <msierks> All you WOW players may want to pay close attention :)
[20:30] <msierks> Spux is an open source voip client which implements the Ventrilo 3.0 Protocol
[20:31] <msierks> Our objective is to bring users a reliable voip client for Linux
[20:31] <msierks> Wine and Ventrilo do work together some of the time, but it is buggy and is prone to breaking
[20:31] <msierks> So Spux was born and has been under development for some time in order to meet Linux users needs
[20:32] <msierks> It is still under heavy development we hope to have something working within a few months
[20:32] <msierks> Spux needs funding and developers are welcome, If interested visit http://www.spuxproject.net/ or go to #spux
[20:32] <msierks> that about does it :)
[20:32] <Ben-Crisford> thank you very much msierks
[20:32] <Ben-Crisford> especially at such short notice
[20:33] <Ben-Crisford> perhaps you could answer some questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat now :)
[20:33] <Ben-Crisford> that would be fantastic thank you
[20:33] <Ben-Crisford> while the questions go on in chat...  chewit from gfire is going to talk about gfire :)
[20:33] <chewit> ok, thanks
[20:33] <chewit> Gfire is a plugin for the Pidgin IM client which allows the user to connect to the Xfire chat network.
[20:34] <chewit> if your not sure what Xfire is, its a very popular chat network for PC gamers.
[20:34] <chewit> it allows them to chat with their friends inside games, join friend's games and keep track of their gaming hours
[20:35] <chewit> basically, xfire is like Xbox Live for PC
[20:35] <chewit> if you want to see more from Xfire, go to xfire.com
[20:35] <chewit> the problem with xfire is that it is a windows only client
[20:35] <chewit> and Gfire is currently the only linux client for xfire
[20:36] <chewit> We believe it is important that we give support to gamers, who want to move to linux, that they have their Xfire chat still working, to make it easier for them to switch over.
[20:37] <chewit> So basically, we provide almost all the same features as Xfire in the Pidgin client
[20:37] <chewit> chat, group chat, clan support, track gaming hours
[20:37] <chewit> sadly, due to limitations with pidgin, we can not "yet"  allow the user to chat ingame
[20:37] <chewit> and that is pretty much Gfire
[20:38] <chewit> go to gfire.sf.net or #gfire for more info
[20:38] <Ben-Crisford> thank you very much chewit ;)
[20:38] <Ben-Crisford> i believe there are some questions awaiting you
[20:39] <Ben-Crisford> good luck, and while they are going on, ill talk about FOSS games :)
[20:39] <Ben-Crisford> FOSS stands for free and opensource
[20:39] <Ben-Crisford> ubuntu is a great example of FOSS software
[20:40] <Ben-Crisford> so what FOSS games are there?
[20:40] <Ben-Crisford> well, you all have them installed
[20:40] <Ben-Crisford> if you goto Accessories> Games
[20:40] <Ben-Crisford> you have chess...  nibbles... they are FOSS games
[20:41] <Ben-Crisford> Also if you go to Accessories> Add/remove programs and click 'Games'
[20:41] <Ben-Crisford> they should all be FOSS
[20:42] <Ben-Crisford> there are games in add/remove programs for everyone :)
[20:42] <Ben-Crisford> from "Abes amazing adventure" to "Supertux Kart"
[20:42] <Ben-Crisford> from "Pingus" to "Advanced strategic command"
[20:42] <Ben-Crisford> but dont make the mistake of thinking these are the only FOSS games for ubuntu you can get
[20:43] <mikechelen> openarena and warzone 2100 are pretty fun
[20:44] <Ben-Crisford> you can download many FOSS games online
[20:44] <Ben-Crisford> today we're gonna talk about cube
[20:44] <Ben-Crisford> which is one of the most popular
[20:44] <Ben-Crisford> and certainly my favourite
[20:44] <Ben-Crisford> when playing cube, you can edit the map at any time (when in single player)
[20:44] <Ben-Crisford> and create new maps
[20:45] <Ben-Crisford> if you think the pingus map editor is fun, sauerbraten (cube 2)'s map editor will transfix you
[20:45] <Ben-Crisford> http://sauerbraten.org/
[20:45] <Ben-Crisford> you can download cube 2 from there
[20:46] <Ben-Crisford> as I thought you guys would be interested by the editor
[20:47] <Ben-Crisford> i made a quick tutorial on using it
[20:47] <Ben-Crisford> at: http://sauerbraten.org/
[20:47] <Ben-Crisford> oops :P
[20:47] <Ben-Crisford> im always CP'in the wrong links
[20:47] <Ben-Crisford> tutorial at: http://bencrisford.exofire.net/cube-editing.txt
[20:47] <Ben-Crisford> cube download at: http://sauerbraten.org/
[20:47] <Ben-Crisford> anyway, we're running out of time, so we'll swiftly move on to the final QA
[20:48] <Ben-Crisford> ask any questions now, and pray that i can answer
[20:48] <Ben-Crisford> i certainly am!
 QUESTION: any followup to this:
 (11:54:20 AM) jcastro: <vensign> QUESTION: What do you think is the importance of FOSS gaming for the adoption of Ubuntu?
 (11:54:55 AM) sabdfl: vensign: i don't have any good ideas for how to drive FOSS gaming forward
[20:49] <Ben-Crisford> well...  FOSS gaming is important, obviously because ubuntu is also FOSS
[20:50] <Ben-Crisford> FOSS and Ubuntu are like cream and cheesecake
[20:50] <Ben-Crisford> they are meant to be!
[20:50] <Ben-Crisford> it is important because...
[20:50] <Ben-Crisford> many people adopt ubuntu because of the philosophy
[20:50] <Ben-Crisford> and FOSS games also support that philosophy
[20:51] <Ben-Crisford> i could talk about this all day :P
[20:51] <Ben-Crisford> but we better move on
 QUESTION: sauerbraten editor is an interesting idea... do you think anyone will ever make something other than an FPS (with perhaps a few RPG elements) out of it?
[20:51] <Ben-Crisford> next?
[20:51] <Ben-Crisford> erm...
[20:51] <Ben-Crisford> i think that it would be tricky
[20:51] <Ben-Crisford> because with an fps game
[20:51] <Ben-Crisford> you just walk around and shoot essentially
[20:52] <Ben-Crisford> but with for instance a racing game
[20:52] <Ben-Crisford> alot of elements have to be there
[20:52] <Ben-Crisford> and have to be perfect....
[20:52] <Ben-Crisford> but with many'a platform games they already exist
[20:52] <Ben-Crisford> for example pingus - in the repos - has a map editor
[20:52] <Ben-Crisford> next?
 QUESTION: Is any initiative planned by canonical regarding creating a standard platform for linux native gaming? (I mean a set of API'S, such as directx, but standarized)
[20:53] <Ben-Crisford> i am not a canonical employee so i couldnt say
[20:53] <Ben-Crisford> if anyone knows
[20:53] <Ben-Crisford> please speak up :)
 QUESTION: can i plug my monthly FCM section, ubuntu games
[20:54] <mikechelen> Sidi mentioned, SiDi> artir: openGL openAL openCL SDL
[20:54] <Ben-Crisford> chewit: FCM?  sorry =S
[20:54] <chewit> Full Circle Magazine
[20:55] <SiDi> I meant that the APIs for cross-platform gaming were already quite consistent, and that it was more a concern of developer habits than lack of technical possibilities *
[20:55] <Ben-Crisford> chewit: Oh of course, im sorry what is it you mean by plug?
[20:56] <chewit> to.... let people know about it, since it relates to Ubuntu Gaming
[20:56] <Ben-Crisford> let people know about FOSS?
[20:57] <Ben-Crisford> sorry :P =S
[20:57] <Ben-Crisford> ill talk to you after maybe?
[20:57] <Ben-Crisford> as were running out of time
[20:57] <Ben-Crisford> :)
[20:57] <Ben-Crisford> next?
[20:57] <charlie-tca> I am thinking let people know to look for gaming articles in Full Circle Magazine
 QUESTION:  I have put quite a bit of money into a decent gaming machine and it is the only thing keeping me from switching over completely....Based on your experience, How much of a performance degradation have you noticed playing commercial games like source games and WoW?
[20:58] <Ben-Crisford> Hmm,  well i spend 1000 quid on my laptop wanting it to run games
[20:59] <Ben-Crisford> i dont play WoW
[20:59] <Ben-Crisford> but from my experiences playing counter strike, I can barely tell the difference....
[20:59] <Ben-Crisford> perhaps my computer is a little warmer, but i can hardly notice it if it is
[20:59] <Ben-Crisford> and once you're full time on ubuntu, the small things like that really dont matter
[20:59] <Ben-Crisford> next?
 Question: any plans for a punkbuster in say, Urban Terror.?
[21:00] <SiDi> It is impossible to have Punkbuster via wine/pol, by the way. It has to be a native client. (ETQW has PunkBuster for instance)
[21:00] <Ben-Crisford> well im a QW developer
[21:01] <Ben-Crisford> im no*
[21:01] <Ben-Crisford> lol i really screwed that up
[21:01] <Ben-Crisford> im no QW developer*
[21:01] <Ben-Crisford> Sealbhach that would be a question for quakewars forums
[21:01] <Ben-Crisford> or the QW developers
[21:01] <Ben-Crisford> next?
[21:02] <charlie-tca> And, if everyone wants to stay, we have a fantastic session on "Wine and Free Gaming" with YokoZar next.
[21:02] <Ben-Crisford> yeab
[21:02] <Ben-Crisford> yeah*
[21:02] <charlie-tca> that's all the questions we have time for now.
[21:02] <Ben-Crisford> ok :)
[21:02] <Ben-Crisford> thank you very much for your time everyone
[21:02] <Ben-Crisford> happy ubuntu'ing!
[21:02] <charlie-tca> Thanks, Ben-Crisford. That was a great session.
[21:02] <Ben-Crisford> cheers
[21:02] <charlie-tca> Also thanks to msierks and chewit
[21:03] <Ben-Crisford> =]
[21:03] <YokoZar> Is the topic change still broken?
[21:03]  * charlie-tca don't know how to change it
[21:03] <YokoZar> Anyway, thank you, and I may as well begin.
[21:04] <YokoZar> First of all, my real life name is Scott Ritchie, and I'm responsible for Wine in Ubuntu.
[21:05] <YokoZar> I'm a community developer, recently unemployed, and have decided to spend the next month getting Wine very attractive in preparation for the next Ubuntu Developer Summit
[21:05] <YokoZar> I also wanted to talk a bit more about games, since I'm involved in quite a few games projects.  Feel free to pester #ubuntu-classroom-chat with any questions you have as they come to you, just put a big QUESTION in front so I can notice them easily.
[21:06] <YokoZar> My main interest in Ubuntu is improving usability, and for many users Wine is their main stumbling block.  They need some Windows application to work.  Often it's something that there's no native equivalent for, like a big game or an internal corporate app or tax software
[21:07] <YokoZar> I've even met a few Ubuntu developers who use Wine for purposes like this.
[21:07] <YokoZar> At the moment Wine isn't very well integrated into Ubuntu - you have to install it specially, right click apps, open with Wine, and in many cases do various "shaman dances" to get them to work
[21:08] <YokoZar> Every time I mention Wine or Ubuntu in some context, I inevitably have real potential users come up to me and say something to the effect of "If just this one application could work, if Wine were a little better, I would switch tomorrow"
[21:09] <YokoZar> Making it easier to do that is one of my primary goals.  So, I've been working (and helping organize) work on a few really sweet looking projects to make Wine well integrated into the Ubuntu desktop - a first class citizen - and I'm going to show them off in Barcelona at the end of the month
[21:10] <YokoZar> However doing this presents a challenge as well - Wine isn't yet perfect, so when we do integrate it we have the paradoxical goal of making it both easy to install/use and also lowering user expectations about how well it will work.
[21:10] <YokoZar> If you used Ubuntu back in the Feisty days (7.04), you may remember how when you went to enable desktop effects you were presented with a bit of a disclaimer about how they were more of a technology demo than 100% ready
[21:11] <YokoZar> But by 7.10 and the Gutsy release, desktop effects became a well-integrated, expected (albeit optional) part of the desktop.
[21:11] <YokoZar> I imagine a similar path for Wine
[21:12] <YokoZar> So, let's talk a bit more about Wine in general, in particular what the community can do
[21:12] <YokoZar> We now have a dedicated Wine forum on the Ubuntu forums: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=313
[21:13] <YokoZar> As you can see it's one of the most active and popular forums out there
[21:13] <YokoZar> Wine is a very common item to install - something like 50% of users have it installed last I checked popcon, and 10% have used it within the past week
[21:14] <YokoZar> And this may be a gross underestimate, since popcon doesn't generally contain Wubi users, who are obviously more likely to need windows applications
[21:15] <YokoZar> One fairly common question I see regards the role of Codeweavers Crossover product line
[21:15] <YokoZar> Codeweavers is the main steward of the Wine project.  Every paid developer is employed by them, and something like 70% of all patches come from them
[21:16] <YokoZar> However, the lead developer, Julliard, doesn't really work on Crossover specifically; he instead focuses on improving Wine long term.
[21:17] <YokoZar> QUESTION: surely wubi users would be less likely to need wine since they have a windows installation?
[21:17] <YokoZar> You're right in that they already have a dual boot setup, however most Wubi users will try Wine before dual booting because it's a hassle.  If it works for them, they're much more likely to make Ubuntu permanent.
 Question: how would you play localized games (like Japanese games) on wine. I believe I tried wineloc guide (CJK guide) but didn't work out for me
[21:18] <YokoZar> Ahh yeah
[21:19] <YokoZar> Wine's support for localization in other languages is a bit spotty, especially when it involves fonts that we don't have
[21:19] <YokoZar> Hence you'll encounter some guides that ask you to do various shaman dances like install windows native fonts and specify locale settings
[21:20] <YokoZar> Honestly your best bet is the users forum (either the ubuntu wine forum or the wine-users mailing list or the forums at winehq.org)
[21:20] <YokoZar> The latter two are actually the same, linked together through a clever piece of mailing list-> forum software
[21:20] <YokoZar> QUESTION: Do you envisage Wine coming pre-installed on Ubuntu? What about people who don't want Wine for maybe ideological or maybe security reason? e.g. fear of downloading Windows malware that can run in Wine?
[21:21] <YokoZar> No I don't.  I imagine Wine only being installed when the user indicates they need it, such as by trying to open an executable file
[21:21] <YokoZar> That's a great place to inform them that they're opening a Windows application, that we can try to do it with Wine, and that it might not work
[21:22] <YokoZar> This is very similar to what happens when you try to open a movie file without the right codec
[21:22] <YokoZar> We don't ship them by default, but they're very accessible to users with a simple install setup
[21:23] <YokoZar> Writing and polishing an equivalent for Wine is part of my tasks for this month leading up to the developer summit
[21:23] <YokoZar> That install prompt would need to be installed by default, of course
[21:24] <YokoZar> There's a few other bits of software that should be there before Wine is installed as well.  For instance, most windows executables have built in icons, but you can't see them in Gnome without some particularly clever scripting magic
[21:24] <YokoZar> That's something we can fix that doesn't involve Wine directly, per se
[21:24] <YokoZar> However letting the user know that the application they're opening will require Wine is important too
[21:25] <YokoZar> We can do this through special icons
[21:26] <YokoZar> back to codeweavers for a moment
[21:26] <YokoZar> There is no dedicated "Wine foundation" or equivalent yet
[21:26] <YokoZar> There's a Wine developer fund, but it's not actively advertised
[21:26] <YokoZar> The fund was used to sponsor plane flights/hotel rooms for the last Wine developer conference (myself included)
[21:27] <YokoZar> I've been considering holding a fundraiser to replenish the losses
[21:27] <YokoZar> But there's no central organization other than Codeweavers directing this sort of thing as of yet
[21:28] <YokoZar> QUESTION : i suppose we could get this to Xubuntu easily too, right ?
[21:28] <YokoZar> (~ wine installer)
[21:29] <YokoZar> Yes, it should be a relatively simple app.  Work with me during the Karmic cycle and we'll see if we can get Kubuntu/Xubuntu working as well as Ubuntu for the user who hasn't had wine installed
[21:29] <YokoZar> Most of the tools to control this stuff are command line python scripts, so all that's needed is a front-end.  That could be customized for the desktop environment depending on their different goals
[21:30] <YokoZar> sebsebseb: QUESTION:  Wine config and such is not that user friendly to configure for apps that don't just work,  so  why dosn't someone work on a nice user friendly  GUI (Graphical User Interface)  that configures apps for people?  Codeweavers have  done nice GUI's, but they aren't what I meant.
[21:30] <YokoZar> It's a great question
[21:30] <YokoZar> There have been more than a few third party projects trying to do just that
[21:31] <YokoZar> Playonlinux is the latest example
[21:31] <YokoZar> Before that there were things like winetools
[21:31] <sebsebseb> YokoZar: yeah, but there should be one as part of Wine really :)
[21:32] <YokoZar> In an ideal world, however, Wine shouldn't need any configuration at all.  There's no reason a user should have to worry about selecting a sound driver or whatever
[21:32] <YokoZar> or worse, messing with native DLLs
[21:32] <YokoZar> or saying he wants to enable/disable GLSL or pixelshader support or all the other shaman dances winecfg lets you do
[21:32] <YokoZar> (or even worse, editing the registry manually)
[21:32] <YokoZar> That said, just about all of this configuration represents open bugs in Wine
[21:33] <YokoZar> Users configure sound drivers because the ALSA driver isn't yet perfect (or the system pulseaudio isn't)
[21:33] <YokoZar> So the Wine upstream philosophy is to focus on just fixing these sorts of bugs rather than letting users go to elaborate workarounds
[21:33] <YokoZar> However, there is some configuration that will be inevitable
[21:33] <YokoZar> And that's where I step in
[21:34] <YokoZar> For instance, even on Windows you sometimes need to specify a Windows version to emulate with an application
[21:34] <YokoZar> On Vista, for instance, you can right click an executable and go to the compatibility mode tab, then tell it to act like Windows XP
[21:35] <YokoZar> This is functionality we'll need for Wine, which is why I'm working on getting it done in much the same way - right click the executable, go to a new Windows Program tab, then tell it you want to run in win98 mode or whatever
[21:35] <YokoZar> We can also put functionality there that Wine is capable of that Windows itself isn't (or doesn't make easy)
[21:35] <YokoZar> For instance forcing a "full screen" game into a window
[21:36] <YokoZar> For instance you can play Diablo 2 in a little window on your desktop despite the game declaring itself as full screen in Wine, however currently this requires an annoying terminal command
[21:37] <YokoZar> That's exactly the kind of "inevitable configuration" I want to make really easy.  Another volunteer and I are polishing off the back end to this, and I'm going to be giving the front end a very close look with a nice UI
[21:38] <YokoZar> So, in the long run, I don't see much of a role for these third party tools like Play on Linux, as installing a game should be as simple as it is on windows - just double click the installer
[21:39] <YokoZar> (or, if it's a CD with autorun, just put it in, click open autorun, and then click install)
[21:39] <YokoZar> (01:38:21 PM) genii: QUESTION: Have you seen the ReactOS and if so, what opinions may you have formed?
[21:40] <YokoZar> I've seen it, and I think it's an interesting concept, however I believe that Ubuntu itself offers a much better user experience for much the same reason that I believe our default desktop can be superior to Windows
[21:41] <YokoZar> ReactOS has a well-integrated Wine, obviously, however in principle there's no reason that Wine+Linux can't be any more compatible
[21:42] <YokoZar> (01:42:16 PM) sebsebseb: QUESTION: 3D  Directx games keep  gamers on Windows big time,  because  virtulization (virtual machines) won't cut it yet and neither will Wine.  Is proper 3D Directx 10 support being worked on for Wine?
[21:42] <YokoZar> DirectX 10 is being worked on in Wine in very big ways
[21:43] <YokoZar> perhaps more importantly, DirectX 9 is being continually polished as well
[21:43] <YokoZar> If you look through the changelog of an arbitrary Wine release, you'll inevitably see about 20 or so patches having something to do with Direct3D
[21:43] <YokoZar> DirectX10 support is one of the five "big things" that upstream is working on
[21:44] <YokoZar> Julliard has said he'll start the release process so we can have a stable 1.2 release as soon as at least one "big thing" is ready enough
[21:45] <YokoZar> Those are: DirectX 10 support, USB driver support (for eg ipods), Quartz driver (for mac), 64-bit support (for win64 apps), and the DIB Engine (for 2d apps to run well like AutoCAD and Starcraft)
[21:45] <YokoZar> I'm really hoping one of those will get "done enough" in the next 4 months so that we can have a Wine 1.2 ready by Ubuntu Karmic
[21:46] <YokoZar> (01:43:38 PM) rski: QUESTION: how did the release of vista affect wine , and how will win7 do it if it does.
[21:46] <YokoZar> Not nearly as much as the release of Windows 98 and Windows XP, actually
[21:46] <YokoZar> There's a suggestion that Wine is fighting a "moving target" and will thus never be done, always one step behind Windows
[21:46] <YokoZar> But Wine isn't targetting windows per se - it's targetting the applications people use
[21:47] <YokoZar> It took until about 2005 before we started seeing substantial numbers of XP-only applications
[21:47] <YokoZar> Similarly it'll be a long time before we start seeing a lot of Vista-only applications
[21:48] <YokoZar> So from a user's perspective, it'll be ok if Wine doesn't implement vista-specific APIs for a while
[21:48] <YokoZar> More encouragingly, Microsoft themselves has very few ways they can keep changing the API
[21:48] <YokoZar> They've already written most of it, and application developers are already using that.  Switching to new API functions implies both learning something new and breaking existing windows-version compatibility
[21:49] <YokoZar> So Microsoft's rate of change is slowing down dramatically.  And Wine development speed is also increasing as we get way more users and more developers.  So we're catching up, fast.
[21:49] <YokoZar> I'm reminded of a blog post I made recently: http://yokozar.org/blog/archives/48
[21:50] <YokoZar> The idea there was that Wine's usefulness will increase upwards sharply as it approaches "almost done"
[21:51] <YokoZar> similarly, Ubuntu adoption can increase sharply after Wine's usefulness increases.  If 80% of users can't switch because of some Windows application holding them back, then an easy to use functional Wine would literally quintuple our user base
[21:51] <YokoZar> (01:51:12 PM) rski: QUESTION: Wine is a very different project compared to other opensource projects, someday all games will be native but think of the hours of coding wine will be wasted and in the past :)
[21:51] <YokoZar> I find this idea interesting for a few reasons
[21:52] <YokoZar> The first is that no one is going to rewrite the tens of thousands of old Windows applications out there that people use in various niche circumstances.  Sometimes there is literally no source code to port.
[21:52] <YokoZar> So Wine will have a use case regardless, even if we have all new apps being written for Linux and solve bug #1
[21:53] <YokoZar> But, if we think about it, there really is no reason that Wine should be thought of as any different from any other system library, like GTK
[21:54] <YokoZar> Other than current deficiencies with Wine, there's no reason that an application HAS to be ported using a complete rewrite into a "native" library - Wine runs natively too, and with some relatively minor tweaks we can completely hide the underlying win32 from the user such that they don't even know they're running Wine
[21:55] <charlie-tca> 5 minute warning
[21:55] <YokoZar> If you've used Google Picassa, it's a first approximation of this approach.  There's still a few bugs in Wine that it runs into (eg theming), but from the user's perspective it's just a normal ubuntu package
[21:55] <YokoZar> rski: QUESTION: when using and developing wine, what is the most usual wall to hit. X not being to handle? the kernel missing stuff? or just hard to figure out what windows does
[21:55] <YokoZar> It's figuring out what Windows does
[21:55] <YokoZar> The API is complete crap
[21:56] <YokoZar> And the documentation on MSDN is often worse
[21:56] <YokoZar> (if existant)
[21:56] <YokoZar> So instead we have to write elaborate test cases that show what applications are actually expecting, find that they want different things on 8 different versions of widnows, and then code to them
[21:57] <YokoZar> In theory, if Wine's test suite covered everything in the API well, we'd be about 90% done.  The main difficulty is figuring out what the functions want rather than how to give it to them
[21:57] <YokoZar> so, I've got a few minutes left, so I'd like to talk briefly about a couple of hobby projects I'm in
[21:57] <YokoZar> other than Wine
[21:58] <YokoZar> The first is the game engine Spring
[21:58] <YokoZar> Spring was originally written to be a remake of the game Total Annihilation, but now you can play all sorts of mods on it (including some that just use the original total annihilation content)
[21:59] <YokoZar> Some are completely free, however, and are suitable for packaging and inclusion in Ubuntu
[21:59] <YokoZar> For instance, the game kernel panic: http://springrts.com/wiki/Kernel_Panic
[21:59] <YokoZar> Which is very simple to pick up and easy to learn.  I'll invite you all to a game with me
[21:59] <YokoZar> You'll need this PPA: https://edge.launchpad.net/~spring/+archive/ppa
[21:59] <YokoZar> And to install the spring, springlobby, and spring-mods-kernelpanic packages
[22:00] <YokoZar> The second project I'm involved in is just in the design phases, but it's based on my experience with lots of games
[22:00] <YokoZar> It's called Glou, and it aims to be an open source game lounge
[22:00] <sebsebseb> this was  one of the best ones,  and sadly comeing to an end soon
[22:00] <YokoZar> https://apps.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/glou/index.php?title=Main_Page
[22:01] <YokoZar> Check in -chat for more kernel panic instructions ;)
[22:01] <YokoZar> Quick principle from Glou:  Organizing a game to play should be easy, even if you don't know what it is yet.  The computer should help you play with your friends as well as it helps you talk to them.
[22:01] <charlie-tca> Thank you very much, YokoZar. That was a terrific session.
[22:01] <YokoZar> Cheers
[22:02] <charlie-tca> Next, we have the always interesting "Ubuntu Kernel Questions and Answers" starring the fantastic ogasawara
[22:02] <ogasawara> charlie-tca: thanks!
[22:02] <ogasawara> Hi Everyone!  Welcome to the Kernel Q+A session.
[22:02] <ogasawara> My name is Leann Ogasawara and I'm the Ubuntu kernel team's dedicated Kernel QA Engineer.
[22:02] <ogasawara> I'm actually filling in for Pete Graner, the Ubuntu kernel team manager.  He was originally going lead this session.
[22:03] <ogasawara> I work closely with the Ubuntu kernel team and try to keep an eye on the current Ubuntu kernel landscape as well as anything approaching on the horizon.
[22:03] <ogasawara> That being said, for this Open Week session I'll try to touch on some of the highlights of the Jaunty Jackalope 9.04 kernel development cycle as well as topics to be discussed and lined up for the upcoming Karmic Koala 9.10 release.
[22:03] <ogasawara> Here's a quick summary of what I'll get to today:
[22:04] <ogasawara> 1) Mainline Kernel Builds
[22:04] <ogasawara> 2) Better upstream kernel bugzilla to Launchpad bug linking
[22:04] <ogasawara> 3) Kernel Config Sanity Review
[22:04] <ogasawara> 4) Ubuntu Kernel Version
[22:04] <ogasawara> 5) Newer Kernel's on latest LTS release
[22:04] <ogasawara> 6) Removal of LRM
[22:04] <ogasawara> 7) Suspend Resume
[22:04] <ogasawara> 8) HWDB Workshop
[22:04] <ogasawara> 9) Sponsoring /staging drivers
[22:04] <ogasawara> 10) Remove AUFS
[22:04] <ogasawara> 11) Kernel Mode Setting
[22:04] <ogasawara> 12) EXT4 by default
[22:04] <ogasawara> 13) Improving Wifi
[22:04] <ogasawara> 14) Remove AppArmor
[22:04] <ogasawara> As you can see, we have quite a few items to cover.
[22:05] <ogasawara> If you have any questions, please post them to #ubuntu-classroom-chat.  I'll try to field and answer them as best I can.
[22:05] <ogasawara> Ok, lets get started!
[22:06] <ogasawara> 1) Mainline Kernel Builds
[22:06] <ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelMainlineBuilds
[22:06] <ogasawara> Ahhh, this was one of my favorite highlights of the Jaunty development cycle.
[22:06] <ogasawara> At the Jaunty UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit) the kernel team decided it would be beneficial to begin building mainline vanilla kernels.
[22:06] <ogasawara> These mainline kernels are built from the unmodified upstream vanilla kernel source but use the Ubuntu kernel configuration files.
[22:06] <ogasawara> These are then packaged as Ubuntu .deb files for easier installation.
[22:07] <ogasawara> The advantage of providing these kernels for public consumption is they can often help isolate issues.
[22:07] <ogasawara> Users can identify if a bug is either :  1) a result of a set of Ubuntu specific kernel patches, 2) fixed upstream, or 3) Exists upstream and the upstream kernel developers should be notified.
[22:07] <ogasawara> The Ubuntu kernel team also generates an Ubuntu kernel version to Upstream kernel version mapping.
[22:07] <ogasawara> It is a one to one mapping of which upstream kernel version the corresponding Ubuntu kernel version was based on.
[22:08] <ogasawara> See http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/info/kernel-version-map.html
[22:08] <ogasawara> It's useful for helping determine which upstream kernel version(s) may be of interest to test.
[22:08] <ogasawara> Going forward into the Karmic development cycle, the Ubuntu kernel team will continue to generate the upstream mainline kernel builds and encourage any testing.
[22:08] <ogasawara> The 2.6.30-rc4 build is already available for those interested.
[22:10] <ogasawara> QUESTION: In UDS Jaunty (or was it UDS Intrepid) somebody spoke about dropping i386 support and preserving i586 and i686. Is that still planned?
[22:10] <ogasawara> artir: for karmic I believe there is plans for a generic 32 and 64 bit support
[22:11] <ogasawara> artir: no i586 and i686 though
[22:11] <ogasawara> moving on ...
[22:11] <ogasawara> 2) Better upstream kernel bugzilla to Launchpad bug linking
[22:11] <ogasawara> Obviously being able to test the latest upstream kernel is helpful when reporting bugs upstream.
[22:12] <ogasawara> When a bug has been reported to the upstream bugzilla (kernel.bugzilla.org), an upstream bug watch can then be set from the Launchpad bug report to the upstream bug report.
[22:12] <ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Watches
[22:12] <ogasawara> The upstream bug watch will allow bug subscribers to track the Launchpad bug report and also receive updates regarding any status changes in the upstream bug.
[22:12] <ogasawara> At the Jaunty UDS, communication also began between the upstream kernel bugzilla maintainers and the Launchpad team.
[22:13] <ogasawara> The Launchpad team have developed a Launchpad plugin to notify bug subscribers of any comments posted in the upstream bug report and vice versa.
[22:13] <ogasawara> The only issue is that the upstream kernel bugzilla needed to be updated to version 3.0 or newer in order to use the plugin.
[22:13] <ogasawara> The upstream kernel bugzilla has since been updated to version 3.2.2.
[22:13] <ogasawara> However, I'm unsure of the current status of the Launchpad plugin being installed.  I'm sure this will be followed up on during the Karmic development cycle.
[22:14] <ogasawara> Also, for a broader view of the Ubuntu to upstream bug linkage, see https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream/UpstreamReport
[22:14] <ogasawara> next ...
[22:14] <ogasawara> 3) Kernel Config Sanity Review
[22:14] <ogasawara> At the Jaunty UDS the Ubuntu kernel team sat down and went through the entire Ubuntu kernel config.
[22:14] <ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/2.6.28-2-generic-config
[22:14] <ogasawara> The purpose was to determine which features/drivers should be built in, enabled as a module, or disabled by default.
[22:15] <ogasawara> Improving boot performance by having modules built in by default was also kept under consideration while reviewing these options.
[22:15] <ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/BootPerformance
[22:15] <ogasawara> The resulting config then served as the generic config file that was used for the Jaunty kernels.
[22:15] <ogasawara> Modifications were then made on a per request basis which usually came in the form of a bug report filed in Launchpad.
[22:16] <ogasawara> The kernel config options for the upcoming Karmic release will likely be based on the final Jaunty kernel configs.
[22:16] <ogasawara> As usual, kernel config options will continue to be re-examined on a per request basis.
[22:16] <ogasawara> I'd also point you to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/KarmicKernelFlavours for additional information.
[22:16] <ogasawara> artir: ^^
[22:16] <ogasawara> Ok, next item ...
[22:16] <ogasawara> 4) Ubuntu Kernel Version
[22:17] <ogasawara> just a sec, am going to field a question really quick
 QUESTION: Can we expect tailor-made config for UNR or MID editions, for example with a I/O scheduler that's more SSD friendly than cfq?
[22:19] <ogasawara> KhaaL: unfortunately, I don't have an answer for that.  However, the kernel team hangs out in #ubuntu-kernel and could likely give you better info than I.
[22:19] <sconklin> I can address that
[22:19] <sconklin> I help maintain the kernels used for netbook devices.
[22:19] <ogasawara> sconklin: sweet, take it away
[22:20] <sconklin> We'll accept any requests for improvements. These usually come in the form of a bug report, and are addressed by the kernel team, with input from people who are ectually testing on the devices.
[22:21] <sconklin> For SSD in particular, we (the kernel team) are beginning more testing of more devices, so I expect to see more attention paid to those.
[22:21] <sconklin> that's all I have
[22:21] <ogasawara> sconklin: thanks
 QUESTION: how does Ubuntu keep CONFIG options from getting lost between stable releases every 6 months?
[22:22] <ogasawara> kees: good question.  typically the config for the next release is based on the previous
[22:22] <ogasawara> kees: if however, something gets missed or dropped, please let us know!
[22:22] <ogasawara> ok 4) Ubuntu Kernel Version
[22:22] <pgraner> ogasawara: we do a review at UDS as well to make sure we don't drop things
[22:23] <ogasawara> The upcoming Ubuntu Kernel Version is always a topic of discussion for every UDS.
[22:23] <ogasawara> The 6 month Ubuntu release cycle is just long enough that it's entirely possible that one, if not two, upstream kernel releases will happen during a single Ubuntu release cycle.
[22:23] <ogasawara> When deciding which upstream kernel version to converge on, the kernel team will take into account a few factors . . .
[22:23] <ogasawara>  * When will the upstream release likely occur in relation to the Ubuntu development cycle.  Typically, it's better if the Ubuntu kernel is able to stabilize earlier in the cycle to have more time to test and fix bugs.
[22:24] <ogasawara>  * The kernel team will also take into account the value of work in a newer upstream version.  They'll also consider the regression potential.
[22:24] <ogasawara>  * They also have to look at the impact on the rest of the distribution.  If they decide to go with a newer kernel not only do they have to consider kernel specific regressions but also possible userspace regressions.
[22:24] <ogasawara>  * They also try to determine a what point within the development cycle will they refuse to adopt a newer kernel version.  e.g. Alpha 3 milestone?
[22:24] <ogasawara> However, with all the above taken into consideration, as you saw with the Intrepid release they bumped to the newer 2.6.27 kernel quite late in the cycle.
[22:25] <ogasawara> With that said, at the upcoming Karmic UDS the kernel team will review if Karmic will converge on 2.6.30 or maybe 2.6.31
[22:25] <ogasawara> This also leads into the following . . .
[22:25] <ogasawara> 5) Newer Kernel's on latest LTS (Long Term Support) release
[22:25] <ogasawara> Backporting a newer kernel to a LTS release was a topic of discussion at the previous UDS but nothing concrete was decided.
[22:26] <ogasawara> As mentioned above, many of the factors taken into consideration for picking the actively developed kernel version apply to backporting a newer kernel to a previous release.
[22:26] <ogasawara> Some additional items that also factor into the debate are:
[22:26] <ogasawara> * Kernel team resources available to backport a newer kernel
[22:26] <ogasawara>  * QA resources and hardware for testing
[22:26] <ogasawara> * Incompatibilities between the newer kernel and older userspace
[22:26] <ogasawara> * And as always, the fear of introducing new regressions
[22:27] <ogasawara> Currently the Ubuntu kernel team has settled on pulling in the upstream stable patch sets (for ex. 2.6.28.x) as SRU's (Stable Release Updates).
[22:27] <ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[22:27] <ogasawara> For a Non-LTS release, the Ubuntu kernel team will continue to apply the upstream stable patch sets as SRU's for approximately 3-4 months following a release.
[22:27] <ogasawara> After that initial 3-4 month period, they will cease merging the upstream stable patch sets and strictly focus on security fixes and critical bug fixes.
[22:28] <ogasawara> For an LTS release, the upstream stable patch sets will be applied as SRU's for the duration of it's life.
[22:28] <ogasawara> Security and critical bug fixes will carry on for the same duration as well.
[22:28] <ogasawara> For more information, refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelUpdates
[22:28] <ogasawara> Next . . .
[22:29] <ogasawara> 6) Removal of LRM (linux-restricted-modules)
[22:29] <ogasawara> As some of you may recall, some drivers that had previously existed in the linux-restricted-modules package, eg. nvidia and fglrx, were removed and split out into their own respective DKMS style packages.
[22:29] <ogasawara> For those that don't know, DKMS (Dynamic Kernel Module Support) is a framework that allows you to manage sources for modules.
[22:29] <ogasawara> It allows modules to be automatically built against the kernel being installed.
[22:29] <ogasawara> Generally, it provides the capability for users to run third party modules and have those modules stay in sync with a distro provided kernel.
[22:30] <ogasawara> Ubuntu also uses DKMS for modules provided by vendors, especially those that contain a binary blob or other closed source portion (e.g. broadcom, fglrx, nvidia).
[22:30] <ogasawara> The Ubuntu kernel team continues to encourage more use of DKMS, especially with regards to restricted modules.
[22:30] <ogasawara> As such, for the upcoming Karmic release they are debating on removing the linux-restricted-modules package entirely.
[22:31] <ogasawara> I believe the linux-restricted-modules package currently contains the madwifi and broadcom drivers.
[22:31] <ogasawara> It's already been mentioned that the Ubuntu kernel team will not pull in any further updates for madwifi.
[22:31] <ogasawara> Users are encouraged to instead use the free ath5k/ath9k drivers vs. the proprietary ath_pci driver.
[22:31] <ogasawara> I've also heard broadcom will be removed from lrm as well.
[22:32] <ogasawara> Final discussions will happen at the Karmic UDS, stay tuned . . .
 QUESTION: I like using OPENVZ and it's very disappointing that it's only provided in the 8.04 release. I am now using intrepid with the 8.04 kernel but my first attempt with jaunty has been a failure. Isn't there some way to provide an openvz kernel with each release?
[22:33] <ogasawara> phitoo: not without someone from the community jumping in and helping out.
 QUESTION: how many watts does the LPIA kernel save? Or what other benefits are there for LPIA over the generic x86 build?
[22:34] <ogasawara> alanbell: none, LPIA is identical to i386
 QUESTION: are there plans to have DKMS run during package install rather than at boot-time?  it would improve the first-boot-on-a-new-kernel experience (e.g. distro upgrades)
[22:35] <ogasawara> kees:  not sure if this has been talked about yet.  I'll suggest they add it to their UDS topic list.
[22:36] <ogasawara> ok next, else we'll run out of time . . .7) Suspend Resume
[22:36] <ogasawara> Suspend and Resume (typically resume) continues to be problematic so the Ubuntu kernel team decided to make it a focus for the Jaunty development cycle.
[22:36] <ogasawara> The kernel team had put together a suspend/resume test script which users could run to determine the stability of suspend/resume on their respective system(s).
[22:37] <ogasawara> They also added hooks to apport to automatically detect and report suspend/resume failures to Launchpad.
[22:37] <ogasawara> With Jaunty's Beta release a call for testing announcement was posted.
[22:37] <ogasawara> See https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-March/000556.html
[22:37] <ogasawara> General debugging pages were also written.
[22:37] <ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingKernelSuspendHibernateResume
[22:38] <ogasawara> An overwhelming number of bugs came flooding in, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?&field.tag=apport-kerneloops+suspend&field.tags_combinator=ALL
[22:38] <ogasawara> The team is still trying to process the bug reports and find similarities between hardware and/or drivers being used.
[22:38] <ogasawara> Unfortunately with the large volume of bugs coming in it was decided to temporarily disable the apport automated suspend/resume bug reporting mechanism for Jaunty's final release.
[22:38] <ogasawara> This will be re-visited for the Karmic development cycle.
 QUESTION:  Does suspend/resume and hibernate/resume work properly on your laptop ogasawara?
[22:39] <ogasawara> bryce: indeed suspend/resume works wonderfully on my laptop (Dell inspiron 1420, all intel hw)
[22:40] <ogasawara> bryce: although I recently did a hibernate but using a 2.6.30 kernel and I did not resume
[22:40] <ogasawara> bryce: I haven't had time to investigate the root cause
[22:40] <ogasawara> next, 8) HWDB Workshop
[22:40] <ogasawara> Leading up to the Jaunty UDS the Ubuntu kernel team had been holding discussions with the Launchpad team to investigate building a hardware database in which end users could submit their hardware profiles to Launchpad.
[22:41] <ogasawara> In theory, those profiles could then be linked to bug reports or have their data mined in general to determine for example how widespread a hardware specific issue may affect the overall Ubuntu user base.
[22:41] <ogasawara> Taking the above mentioned suspend/resume bugs as an example, having a hwdb would be ideal.
[22:41] <ogasawara> It would allow the Ubuntu kernel team to quickly determine which bugs relate to a specific piece of hardware or driver and then group them to one master bug.
[22:41] <ogasawara> Subsequently the team could then examine how many users this issue may potentially affect to help prioritize work to be done and resources to be allocated.
[22:42] <ogasawara> Some development for the hwdb has already began and work in this area will continue to be carried through the Karmic development cycle.
[22:42] <ogasawara> next . . .
[22:42] <ogasawara> 9) Sponsoring /staging drivers
[22:42] <ogasawara> For those not familiar, the staging directory "was created to hold drivers and filesystems and other semi-major additions to the Linux kernel that are not ready to be merged at this point in time.  It is here for companies and authors to get a wider range of testing, and to allow for other members of the community to help with the development of these features for the eventual inclusion into the main kernel tree."
[22:43] <ogasawara> The staging directory is maintained upstream and is a part of the latest Jaunty kernel.
[22:43] <ogasawara> The Ubuntu kernel team promotes the testing of drivers etc. which exist in the staging directory.
[22:43] <ogasawara> If there is a module of interest which is currently not enabled within the staging directory for the Ubuntu kernels, feel free to notify the kernel team of your interest in testing the module and having it enabled.
[22:43] <ogasawara> It's best to file a bug report in Launchpad with this request.  The Ubuntu kernel team will likely review the request and hopefully enable the module for further testing.
[22:44] <ogasawara> If there is code you know which exists outside of the mainline kernel tree that is a good candidate to submit for inclusion in drivers/staging, please let the corresponding authors know.
[22:44] <ogasawara> This ties into the next item. . .
[22:44] <ogasawara> 10) Remove AUFS
[22:44] <ogasawara> The Ubuntu kernel team met with AUFS maintainer Junjiro Okajima at the Jaunty UDS.
[22:45] <ogasawara> At that time Okajima-san was encouraged to get his code merged upstream into the drivers/staging directory.
[22:45] <ogasawara> The patches were submitted upstream but unfortunately, it seems they were rejected.
[22:45] <ogasawara> The reasons are captured at http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=123938533724484&w=2
[22:45] <ogasawara> Going forward (likely at the upcoming Karmic UDS) this topic will be re-examined and debated as to whether AUFS will be removed entirely.
[22:46] <ogasawara> Some alternatives would be to possibly go back to unionfs although the move to aufs was prompted by unionfs issues.
[22:46] <ogasawara> Another option might be device-mapper snapshots.
[22:46] <ogasawara> Regardless, any alternative will have to be sufficiently investigated and verified to provide support for the Ubuntu LiveCD.
[22:46] <ogasawara> I unfortunately don't know much more regarding this issue and I imagine it will warrant a new spec/blueprint in Launchpad and another UDS session for Karmic.
 Question: what's AUFS?
[22:47] <ogasawara> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AuFS
[22:47] <zhurai> (it was already answered)
 QUESTION: would it make sense to have the staging drivers enabled in a separate linux-staging-modules package?
[22:48] <ogasawara> sbeattie: actually that's sorta what the linux-ubuntu-modules package used to provide
[22:48] <ogasawara> sbeattie: but seeing as they've since removed lum, I doubt we'll see a separate linux-staging-modules package
[22:49] <ogasawara> 11) Kernel Mode Setting
[22:49] <ogasawara> This is a big topic I know a lot of people are interested in.
[22:49] <ogasawara> This will be on the agenda as well for Karmic UDS kernel discussions.
[22:49] <ogasawara> Given the fact that KMS requires some synchronization with userspace, ie. Xorg, KMS will likely be disabled for the first few Karmic Alpha releases until userspace catches up.
[22:49] <ogasawara> However, I believe the intention is to have this enabled for Karmic's final release.
[22:49] <ogasawara> For those not entirely familiar, Kernel Mode Setting will provide things such as:
[22:50] <ogasawara> * Improved suspend/resume support since the kernel will no longer have to rely on external resources to restore devices to a proper state after resume.
[22:50] <ogasawara> * Also, with this functionality moving to the kernel, the mode should also be restored automatically and more quickly.
[22:50] <ogasawara> * Similarly, virtual terminal switching should also see an improvement and likely be more reliable.
[22:50] <ogasawara> * You'll also see improved debugging as KMS should allow the kernel to display panic/oops messages rather than a hard system hang with no helpful indication of what went wrong.
[22:50] <ogasawara> For those interested in testing, I'd recommend following the Karmic Alpha release notes for when this will be available.
[22:50] <ogasawara> Ok, moving on . . .
[22:51] <ogasawara> 12) EXT4 by default
[22:51] <ogasawara> The Jaunty 9.04 release supported the ability to install the new ext4 file system, but ext3 remained the default file system for Jaunty.
[22:51] <ogasawara> Going forward, ext4 will be considered as the default file system based on the initial testing and feedback received during the Jaunty cycle.
[22:51] <ogasawara> One of the higher profile bugs regarding ext4 in Jaunty has since been resolved:
[22:51] <ogasawara> See https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/317781?comments=all
[22:51] <ogasawara> Please let the Ubuntu kernel team know of any issues you experience with ext4 to help them make an educated decision for recommending ext4 to be the default file system for the upcoming Karmic release.
[22:52] <ogasawara> For tracking purposes, the Ubuntu kernel team would prefer you file a bug report in Launchpad for any Ubuntu specific ext4 issues.
[22:52] <ogasawara> If you are able to confirm the issue with the upstream kernel as well, please also notify the upstream ext4 kernel developers.
[22:52] <ogasawara> Next item . . .
[22:52] <ogasawara> 13) Improving Wifi
[22:52] <ogasawara> The Jaunty UDS had some upstream linux-wireless representation in attendance.
[22:53] <ogasawara> This was a great time for the Ubuntu kernel team to interact with the upstream developers to get their feedback on what the Ubuntu kernel team could do to help support the upstream linux-wireless community.
[22:53] <ogasawara> It's also an opportunity to discover how Ubuntu as a distro can help end users engage in testing the latest compat-wireless stack and provide feedback directly to the upstream developers.
[22:53] <ogasawara> The following wiki was drafted as a result:
[22:53] <ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/LinuxWireless
[22:53] <ogasawara> A reference to this doc was also made from the upstream wireless.kernel.org wiki
[22:53] <ogasawara> http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Documentation/Reporting_bugs#Distributionspecificnotes
[22:54] <ogasawara> Another related item I'd like to point out is that the linux-backports-modules package typically contains an updated compat-wireless stack.
[22:54] <ogasawara> It's a great way to quickly test if a current wifi issue may be resolved with this updated stack.
[22:54] <ogasawara> The version of the compat-wireless stack in linux-backports-modules is updated fairly regularly but it is by no means updated daily to contain the bleeding edge bits.
[22:54] <ogasawara> If you want the bleeding edge, refer to http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Download
[22:54] <ogasawara> The practice of providing an updated compat-wireless stack via linux-backports-modules will continue with the Karmic release.
[22:55] <ogasawara> I'd also like to take a moment to mention CRDA (Central Regulatory Domain Agent) at this time.
[22:55] <ogasawara> http://wireless.kernel.org/en/developers/Regulatory/CRDA
[22:55] <ogasawara> "CRDA acts as the udev helper for communication between the kernel and userspace for regulatory compliance."
[22:55] <ogasawara> A spec was written for the Jaunty cycle to provide CRDA support.
[22:55] <ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/JauntyCRDA
[22:55] <ogasawara> CRDA has since been packaged for use within Jaunty.
[22:55] <ogasawara> See https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wireless-crda
 QUESTION: I Have a problem where the free ath5k driver drops 90% of pacakges in ad-hoc mode. If madwifi is to be discontinued will ath5k be useble in ad-hoc mode?
[22:56] <ogasawara> yusuf: I'd encourage you to first test with linux-backports-modules if you haven't already
[22:56] <ogasawara> real quick last item
[22:56] <ogasawara> 14) Remove AppArmor
[22:56] <charlie-tca> 3 minute warning
[22:56] <ogasawara> Discussions need to happen between the Ubuntu kernel team and the security team as to whether AppArmor will still be supported or if Ubuntu will move to a different security model, eg. SELinux.
[22:57] <ogasawara> Unfortunately that's about all I know about the current status of this topic at this point in time.
[22:57] <ogasawara> That's really all I had on my list to cover.  I would however like to point to a few general reference docs as well.
[22:57] <ogasawara> For general information regarding the Ubuntu kernel team, refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam
[22:57] <ogasawara> For those wanting to get involved, take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/GettingInvolved
[22:57] <ogasawara> And lastly, I'd like to point out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KnowledgeBase which contains a wealth of information.
[22:58] <ogasawara> Ok everyone, thanks for listening.  Enjoy the weekend!
[22:58] <jcastro> thanks ogasawara!
[22:59] <jcastro> ok, normally this would be the end of openweek
[22:59] <jcastro> but we have a forums session after this
[22:59] <jcastro> so over the next hour I'd like to take any feedback
[22:59] <jcastro> from people on how we can make Open Week better
[23:00] <jcastro> for this session please just give me your feedback right in this channel so we can log it
[23:00] <jcastro> How did you guys enjoy openweek?
[23:00] <somnoliento> jcastro: this was my first Open Week. I found it incredibely informative
[23:00] <jcastro> good!
[23:00] <zhurai> I thought it was quite informative as well
[23:01] <akgraner> jcastro, my 1st one too - talk about a wealth of info...
[23:01] <jcastro> how did you guys like the topics?
[23:01] <jcastro> too simple? too complicated?
[23:01] <zhurai> only problem is my timezone (GMT-8), makes it that this is held during when I'm at school
[23:02] <jcastro> yes, the time xone thing is always a trade off
[23:02] <jcastro> I would like to be able to have sessions for all time zones, but that depends on how many volunteers we can find
[23:02] <zhurai> which now my school's over so I'm moving again, and missing more of it :x
[23:02] <KhaaL> i enjoyed it, though I'd like to see live video streams. that way topics will be better covered (hey, it takes less time to speak than to type).
[23:02] <jcastro> is there a particular area of ubuntu which you feel we could have covered better?
[23:03] <awkorama> enterprise client/server
[23:03] <jcastro> ok
[23:03] <DougieRichardson> jcastro: I'd like to thnak you for the time you've put in on this, the only thing that I saw that would have benefitted from improvement was magicfabs session where there was some unhelpful commenting, especially in the main channel
[23:03] <ninnnu> Seconding zhurai, though on my case these were a bit too late (UTC+2 +DST), but at least there's IRC-logs. The sessions has been interesting, anyway. :)
[23:03] <boredandblogging> jcastro: would weekends be better?
[23:03] <awkorama> that has not been covered at all (afaik)
[23:03] <Rafik> jcastro> It was great ! for some sessions, one hour was too short
[23:03] <nhandler> That is what I was thinking boredandblogging
[23:03] <somnoliento> awkorama: There were a couple of sessions on servers
[23:04] <jcastro> we tried a weekend once
[23:04] <ninnnu> Though the timezone-thing is something that is impossible to get done right so that it'd satisfies everyone, so...
[23:04] <boredandblogging> jcastro: right, forgot about that
[23:04] <nhandler> Not enough attendance jcastro ?
[23:04] <jcastro> the attendance wasn't good and getting people to volunteer a saturday was difficult
[23:04] <jcastro> though I suspect if we had interest that we might be able to do one
[23:05] <jcastro> (sorry if my answers are slow, ssh lag is killing me today)
[23:05] <Sealbhach> Kernel talk is always abstruse to me, I find it difficult not to zone out.
[23:05] <jcastro> heh yeah
[23:06] <jcastro> but we try to have different levels of talks
[23:06] <somnoliento> The Women in Ubuntu panel was great
[23:06] <awkorama> somnoliento: not really, server team info, and screen session, but that didn't answer my questions at all
[23:06] <ninnnu> Suggestion: If there's a session that "needs" live attendance (like the screen-profiles one), ask them to have two sessions on different times?
[23:06] <jcastro> to appeal to different audiences
[23:06] <jcastro> ninnnu: ok, good idea
[23:06] <rufong> 1st time here, great info! representatives were great about answering questions. i agree with Rafik, some sessions having 2hrs would be awesome
[23:06] <jcastro> the screen-profiles session seemed to be a hit
[23:07] <jcastro> rufong: ok
[23:07] <shadowland> screen-profiles session was really good, yeah
[23:07] <charlie-tca> I thought it was great! Yet, I have wonder if there is a way to repeat the sessions at 12 hour intervals, for better time coverage in all zones?
[23:07] <toros> yeah, screen-profiles session was one of the best ever :)
[23:08] <jcastro> yeah, it would be nice if we could have revolving classes throughout the timezones
[23:08] <shadowland> See, all you have to do is make Dustin wake up every 4 hours and give it again :)
[23:09] <jcastro> I think ausimage did a good job getting the logs up on the wiki really quickly!
[23:09] <jcastro> so round of applause!
[23:09] <SiDi> Thanks everyone for this wonderful week ! Learnt a lot of things, it's been a pleasure.
[23:09] <jcastro> also thanks to charlie-tca for covering for me during my connection issues today!
[23:09]  * rufong applauds
[23:09] <charlie-tca> No problem, I am just glad it all works.
[23:09]  * SiDi offers an XFCE mouse to charlie-tca : ~O>
[23:10] <nhandler> Any feedback about the use of identi.ca for session reminders?
[23:10]  * charlie-tca accepts it, SiDi. thanks
[23:10] <jcastro> oh yeah, thanks to nhandler for scripting up the identi.ca topic notices
[23:10] <nhandler> And thanks to greg-g for hosting it
[23:13] <shadowland> One bit of feedback:  emmajane's documentation sessions she mentioned videos that she'd prepared ahead of time and had a pastebin
[23:13] <shadowland> for reading ahead, which were both very handy
[23:16] <jcastro> how do you guys feel about the timing of the week?
[23:17] <jcastro> is right after release a good time?
[23:17] <nhandler> jcastro: I think the timing is perfect. I had a few days before the karmic repositories opened up to prepare my session
[23:17] <shadowland> yes
[23:17] <charlie-tca> I think it is right.
[23:17] <jcastro> heh, yeah, a nice bit of lull there
[23:17] <somnoliento> jcastro: perhaps a little more time after the release (one more week?)
[23:17] <jcastro> ok
[23:17] <nhandler> Any particular reason somnoliento ?
[23:18] <somnoliento> nhandler: well, I ended up upgrading *during* open week
[23:18] <sebsebseb> I have used Ubuntu since the second release (with Fedora Core 2 and 4 before it),  and Open Week has been since Edgy, and I didn't even know about it untill this one.  I think I read something on IRC maybe,  but it took  untill Tuesday after someone had told me that they asked Shuttleworth a question, before I knew it was going on.  As a result it needs advertising more!
[23:19] <nhandler> sebsebseb: Where should we advertise?
[23:19] <nhandler> It has been on the planet, irc, mailing lists, identi.ca, etc
[23:19] <sebsebseb> The timeing is a little odd for the UK  since UTC/GMT is normalley our timezone, but not now, when it is the summer and we are using BST.
[23:19] <zhurai> what's BST?
[23:19] <sebsebseb> nhandler: frontpage of the website?
[23:19] <sebsebseb> zhurai: British Summer Time
[23:19] <Sealbhach> Blogging gets the word out best I think, it's get's picked up in Google news search for "ubuntu"
[23:19] <zhurai> ah ._.
[23:20] <nhandler> sebsebseb: Blogs such as the Fridge are more appropriate for news such as Open Week than the ubuntu front page
[23:20] <nhandler> Especially since the front page is being used to advertise jaunty right now ;)
[23:21] <shadowland> Yeah, I think I only saw one post from DougieRichardson on the planet before things started.
[23:21] <TurtlePie> LPIC-1 certification
[23:21] <nhandler> shadowland: There were others. I know jcastro had one that got echoed on the Fridge
[23:22] <jcastro> sebsebseb: ok so better marketing overall, good point
[23:22] <sebsebseb> nhandler: Well I didn't even know about that stuff untill ths open week, I get my Liniux news from  http://www.linuxtoday.com  and maybe  http://www.linux.org if they are doing articles.  If I was more of a geek I would read Slashdot as well :d
[23:22] <akgraner> jcastro, I like how the tone of the sessions were great for the beginner without making me feel silly for not knowing something...and if something needed to be explained 3 different ways they took they time to do so...
[23:23] <sebsebseb> nhandler: I have however been behind with Linux news, so maybe it got mentioned on a site I would have used
[23:23] <jcastro> akgraner: heh, that's on purpose. :)
[23:24] <charlie-tca> Even the prep was announced on the devel mailing list, maybe something through the weekly news letter, too.
[23:24] <jcastro> I liked how we didn't really need to moderate the channels
[23:24] <sebsebseb> charlie-tca: not on the mailing lists maybe I will join
[23:24] <jcastro> other than the occasional lost person I think people were well behaved
[23:24] <jcastro> that's pretty rare for sessions over 300 people!
[23:24] <charlie-tca> I never saw it in the announcement mailing list, even
[23:24] <Sealbhach> Yes, nice egalitarian, community feeling about the whole week.
[23:24] <akgraner> jcastro, I've been telling everyone how great these IRC sessions are, and how much stuff gets accomplished in an hour....amazing...
[23:25] <jcastro> yep
[23:25] <nhandler> jcastro: Another marketing idea would be a stickied thread on the forums
[23:25] <charlie-tca> Behavior was great! and we got real good attendance.
[23:25] <jcastro> ok, so about half way through this next cycle we'll have Developer WEek, which is the same format, but for more advanced topics
[23:25] <barcc> session about new features are good (encrypted home, screen profiles, Whats new in 9.04)
[23:25] <jcastro> nhandler: there is one already
[23:25] <charlie-tca> but both prep and final announcements need to be more widespread.
[23:26] <jcastro> good point
[23:26] <akgraner> maybe someone mentioned this but can people who have specific questions before the sessions can we post them to the wiki?
[23:26] <jcastro> yeah, the problem with that
[23:26] <jcastro> is that the questions pile up
[23:26] <nhandler> jcastro: Where? I didn't see it
[23:26] <zhurai> as I was going to say before I had to go home...  I feel it's a VERY good thing that you guys log these things in the wiki, so that is a pretty good plus (especially since I can't go to all of them :|)
[23:26] <akgraner> ahh ok
[23:26] <jcastro> and it ends up being a person reciting stuff instead of it being so real time
[23:26] <charlie-tca> Yes, that is what I think, too. Too many questions in advance could kill the session.
[23:26] <akgraner> understood...
[23:27] <jcastro> nhandler: community cafe
[23:27] <sebsebseb> Another marketing  idea not just for Open Week, but Ubuntu as a whole, would be  TV adverts, if  Canonical ever made enough money!   I hope so one day,  Microsoft used to advertise Windows and such quite a bit on TV in the 90's.
[23:27] <jcastro> sebsebseb: heh, some day
[23:27] <nhandler> jcastro: Ah, I was thinking more of a global sticky.
[23:27] <jcastro> that might be a better idea
[23:29] <Sealbhach> No good marketing Ubuntu on TV unless it's preinstalled and certain to work OK
[23:29] <sebsebseb> Sealbhach: pre installed OEM deals are also good of course
[23:29] <jcastro> any other feedback?
[23:30] <SiDi> Yeh, might be a damocles sword for people who run into hardware trouble
[23:30] <somnoliento> I think, for marketing, nothing beats word of mouth... you just go out there and comment what a great idea the OW is, and what a great asset this kind of things are for the community and the distro
[23:30] <nhandler> jcastro: Maybe have each day cover a different range of hours
[23:30] <jcastro> nice, dude brings up damocles sword. First time I've seen that
[23:30] <jcastro> nhandler: yeah I have alot of ways we can think about a more time-zone friendly thing for people all over the world
[23:31] <jcastro> oh, of course, one thing people always forget
[23:31] <jcastro> is that -classroom is always available for stuff
[23:31] <jcastro> so there's nothing stopping anyone from firing up improm
[23:31] <jcastro> tu sessions all the time
[23:31] <hggdh> even better (but more stressful) two weeks, each with different range (and, probaby, different presenters)
[23:31] <rufong> jcastro:was anyone asked to represent edubuntu?
[23:31] <nhandler> jcastro: dtchen had an impromptu session the other day
[23:32] <nhandler> It also might be useful setting up an IRC bot that is in here and #ubuntu-classroom-chat. The session leader could then type something like !question to have a question from -chat posted in here.
[23:32] <sebsebseb> rufong: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekintrepid/Edubuntu
[23:32] <sebsebseb> rufong: Intrepid did it
[23:34] <rufong> sebsebseb: i c
[23:34] <jcastro> nhandler: good idea
[23:36] <jcastro> ok well, just one more session and then we can call it a wrape
[23:36] <jcastro> as always if you have more feedback, maile me at jorge@ubuntu.com
[23:36] <jcastro> bodhi_zazen: you're up at the top of the hour!
[23:38] <bodhi_zazen> Thank you jcastro :)
[23:39] <charlie-tca> jcastro: Thanks for all your work this week.
[23:39] <charlie-tca> It takes a lot to put this together!
[23:43] <sebsebseb> The Wine one was very good,  but  I  missed my oppertunity to say,  that we don't live in a ideal world.  This should make sense if the log is read.
[23:43] <sebsebseb> Great week!
[23:43] <sebsebseb> Look forward to the next one.
[23:45] <sebsebseb> Would be nice to have a Saturday as part of open week in the future as well.
[23:58] <bodhi_zazen> Looks like we saved the best for last ?
[23:58] <bodhi_zazen> Ubuntu Forums :)
[23:59] <bodhi_zazen> jcastro: THANK YOU for putting all this together :)
[23:59] <nhandler> For those of you who don't know him, bodhi_zazen is the leader of the Ubuntu Forums Beginners team, and a member of the Forum Council. He will now be talking about the Ubuntu Forums.