[00:00] comes from the CC memberhsip I think [00:00] Matthew East → Ubuntu Community Council → Kubuntu Members → Kubuntu Bugs → Kubuntu Users [00:01] slightly odd structure, but still [00:04] mdke: my ubuntu membership has recently lapsed. Is there a process to follow to get it renewed? [00:05] dsas_: it's autorenewable, but I think if it lapses, perhaps you lose that opportunity [00:05] I'll just readd you [00:06] mdke: I kept putting off renewing myself and now I can't as I'm not a member. [00:06] mdke: thanks [00:06] done [01:02] hi [01:02] does anyone know how I can find out who my mentor is? [01:03] hello? [01:03] mentor for what? [01:05] for the doc mentor program... [01:05] i dont have an account [01:05] and i kinda wanna upload something [01:05] to the launchpad repos [01:05] sorry, i don't know how that works [01:06] thanx anway [01:06] also, [01:06] where can i go to find a good tutorial on docbook? [01:07] saketh: http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookTutorials [01:07] thanx [01:07] As for the mentoring program, it is currently dead. It will be discussed at the meeting this weekend [01:07] so... [01:07] when? [01:07] If you have a patch that you would like uploaded, attach it to a bug, and paste the URL here [01:07] saketh: #ubuntu-meeting on Saturday [01:07] thank you [01:07] ok... [01:07] tahnx [01:07] It is on the fridge: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar [01:10] w8... [01:10] 7pm to 8pm UTC? [01:11] hello? [01:14] That is correct saketh [01:14] And please be patient. Just because someone does not respond to you right away does not mean that they are ignoring you [01:14] ok sorry [01:16] irc is an idle friendly form of communication... we should assume people get up and do other things at any time [01:16] mhm [01:17] (or are attempting to participate in too many IRC channels while using a horrible irc client that does not let him easily see when a channel has a new message) [01:18] mhm [01:18] :) [01:18] i probably can stay untilt he meeting is over but i m not sure... [01:19] How do u change the text u r typing in and all that other cool stuff? [01:19] well, i'd say most people don't change fonts or use colors [01:20] i assume you are talking via your irc client? [01:20] mhm [01:20] because there are roughly a zillion irc clients it's difficult to say for sure :) [01:20] ur text turned red when u said that is correct saketh [01:20] and i m using xchat [01:21] often times irc clients will highlight lines in irc when your username is contained within [01:21] like everything, it can be configured, so play with your software and have it do whatever you want... we don't see it [01:21] mhm [01:21] thanx [01:22] does the string 'mhm' indicate you are thinking? :) [01:22] it just means taht i m listening [01:22] we use taht a lot in chat [01:23] i m kinda new to the docs team, so i m just figuring things out [01:23] for channels like this, people tend to use the least amount of noise as possible [01:23] ok [01:23] like how to use bzr [01:23] and launchpad [01:23] its so complicated [01:23] i like svn better [01:23] that's because you've already learned svn [01:24] i guess... [01:24] ??? [01:24] i dont understand waht u r saying [01:24] i understand only half of what i say [01:24] waht is CTCP? [01:25] oops [01:25] taht didnt come from u [01:25] ask google [01:25] srry... [01:25] typically in irc people do not use the return key as punctuation [01:26] hmm? [01:26] you know [01:26] stuff like [01:26] this [01:26] oh [01:26] sorry [01:26] :) [01:26] thats just the wa i caht in im [01:26] anyway... [01:27] how would I upload a fix that i made using bzr to launchpad? [01:27] you would create a patch and send it to the mailing list [01:27] how do i make a patch? [01:28] saketh: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Submitting [01:29] i already read that [01:29] i didnt understand it [01:30] it has "bzr diff > diffname.tx" [01:30] 'bzr diff' is a command, that will create a diff (a patch) [01:30] like in svn [01:30] the '> diffname.txt' means it sends the output (the diff) to that filename [01:31] ok [01:31] i get it now... [01:31] thanx [01:32] i've never head of "bzr bundle" but it looks interesting [01:36] mhm [01:36] oops [01:36] sorry [01:36] well... [01:36] i gotta go... [01:36] tahnx [01:36] bye! [01:37] :) [02:25] my word mdke , he basically cleaned out CategoryDocumentation [02:25] mdke, he is not "one of my soldiers" :) [02:26] that is to say, he is not from the Beginners Team, I have no idea who he is [02:40] Rocket2DMn: He says he is part of the NY LoCo. Maybe cprofitt knows him [02:40] quite possible nhandler [02:45] nhandler: i just noticed you were talking about me [02:46] nhandler: am the guy who worked on CategoryDocumentation pages [02:47] fooka: I know (I looked at your LP page). We just didn't know who you were and noticed you did a lot of work on the wiki today [02:47] nhandler: i gotta update that LP page :) [02:48] nhandler: as i mentioned to mdke, just felt a little inspired to chip in after tuesday's openweek sessions [03:05] fooka: thanks so much for your work. :) [03:07] j1mc: you're welcome === j1mc is now known as j1mc_ [04:01] What is the policy regarding words like organize/organise with regards to the system documentation? I know there is some wiki page or something that mentions this, but I can't remember which one [04:30] nixternal: should be u.s. english, so "organize." [04:30] ooops [04:30] nhandler: ... ^^ [04:31] j1mc_: Ok, thanks [07:21] nhandler: i don't see the answer here but i've mostly only skimmed: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide [08:28] philip_: it's here, under Spelling - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide/SpellingPunctuationGrammar [08:29] cool, there it is [08:31] today i learned that, and also that -- cannot be used inside [08:31] I didn't know that [08:31] how bizarre [08:31] truly [08:32] i only refer to xml comments here, not sure about elsewhere [12:04] mdke: Feel like sponsoring http://paste.ubuntu.com/161898/ ? [13:04] I'm not sure if this is the right place to report this, but from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DesktopEffects the link in the "See Desktop Effects for an official version of this document." line isn't working, I'm getting the message "The requested URL /7.10/desktop-effects/C/ was not found on this server." [13:05] Gutsy is dead. See: https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/desktop-effects/C/ [13:06] jpds: It wasn't actually for me, I was just following the link through from the website, I guess the first page I linked just needs its link updating [13:06] Yep. [14:07] wiki formatting question... Few ubuntu community wiki pages have graphics aligned right with text to the left. Instead there is a graphic with the text below even if the image only fills part of the width. [14:07] Is this the standard. [14:17] * ds305 Perhaps because different users have different screen resolutions which would allow viewing it all in one screen? [14:32] Hello [14:33] I've got a question that is very likely offtopic : does anyone know good tools to write man pages ? :P === j1mc_ is now known as j1mc [15:43] SiDi: I thought they were in TeX [15:45] They're in a weird language actually. [15:45] I just took one and i'm modifying it at the moment === j1mc_ is now known as j1mc [17:39] hi! i've added a wiki page on virtual serial port - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VirtualSerialPort if you want to check it [18:03] janisozaur, that page looks nice [18:04] I don't know anything about the content though, but I trust you know what you're doing [18:04] If you find other pages on the community docs that are relevant to it, you should make sure to set up some links between the pages [18:05] Rocket2DMn, i just had to set up such a connection and after quite a long search and guesstimation i thought i could share with the knowledge gained [18:06] cool [20:01] nhandler: sure, that looks fine [20:03] nhandler: no particular bug which that fixes, right? [20:06] Rocket2DMn: I really can't help but to see serious duplication of effort here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics; the topics are basically identical to our desktop help. I'm really struggling to see why this can't use the same material as us [20:06] gimme a sec, finishing a quick forum tutorial [20:06] Rocket2DMn: no immediate rush I was just thinking out loud [20:10] ah yeah that mdke [20:10] That it is not my baby, that is the brainchild of cprofitt and Vantrax (Matthew Lye) [20:11] bodhi.zazen is setting up the Moodle site [20:12] mdke, i think the purpose is to get existing teams involved in using new tools as part of their training/education efforts [20:12] Rocket2DMn: I don't follow [20:12] they are supposed to be built around live sessions, not static documentation [20:13] I don't know much about Moodle, but I guess it is a sort of interactive education tool [20:13] I see the idea of the "classroom", but find it a lot harder to see why material should be any different to onscreen help - the aim of both is to teach users [20:14] Yes, I understand. I don't know all the details, but I think it is supposed to work alongside the current Classroom project and link to existing documentation whenever possible [20:14] what do you mean by "to get existing teams involved in using new tools" in the context of this part of the project - is the idea that the docteam is involved in this? [20:15] I'm stepping a bit out of my zone here, but I think here is a good example: Take the OpenWeek sessions [20:15] Considering that users are actually paying attention and want to be involved, they can interact with the Moodle site to help learn [20:15] rather than just seeing text in the channel or on a web page [20:17] hmm [20:18] I'm not involved with the project, you would have to ask vantrax or cprofitt [20:18] I already raised the concern about duplication, tbh, as did Mike Basinger - it was roundly ignored [20:19] we'll see how it develops, maybe I'm reading the idea wrongly, but it's a bit odd that no one has come to talk about how material can be reused, at the absolute least [20:19] Understood, I think one problem they are running into is that the material is so spread out [20:19] every team kinda does their own thing [20:22] well, help is more or less in one place, that's why we called it help.ubuntu.com [20:22] the idea is for it to be easy for users to find and for them not to have to search different sites [20:25] mdke, it's not just for system help, I think it is designed for teams to make use of it their training efforts, like MOTU [20:26] I think from where we sit, they would want a doc team member to use Moodle to setup a training session using existing documentation [20:27] Then that doc team member (or somebody else) can actually go teach the session using the Moodle program as part of the course [20:27] I don't think they are planning to move, copy, or rewrite the actual documentation somewhere that it isnt already [20:29] i share your concern though mdke [20:29] Rocket2DMn: I'm still a bit concerned about the idea of a separate website for that, in respect of user help - I'm not bothered about the other sections like MOTU [20:30] the single website thing is very important, IMO [20:30] yeah mdke , I don't think they intend to use the site as another place to get help. I don't think documentation is going to be written there. [20:30] let's see how it develops [20:30] Rocket2DMn: ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding the project then [20:30] I don't fully understand it myself [20:30] I think it needs to be explained a bit more clearly on the landing page [20:31] I think that their Moodle site will be on an ubuntu.com subdomain though [20:31] I think it is destined for http://learning.ubuntu.com/ [20:32] IIRC, they have been given approval to use this [20:32] that's what the page says [20:32] have they not been in touch with you? [20:32] no, nor the CC [20:33] except for the initial contact, when I raised my concern [20:33] that's odd [20:33] I have some worries too. [20:33] I don't think the program is designed to be an attempt at documentation [20:34] No, Matthew Lye and Charles Profitt have both been in touch with me and it looks to me more like they're going to negate the desktop-training if anything [20:34] I've got that point; but starting a new site will inevitably cause confusion for users about where to go [20:35] I agree - we should get more involved now and we can get more out of it for contribution - it might work for us too [20:35] This is the page that Matthew emailed me about earlier, have you seen it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning [20:36] yes, that's what we were discussing [20:36] there is this post from bodhi - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-April/012617.html [20:36] but that post is just a collection of positive words, rather than any real explanation of how why they are true [20:36] Yes I remember it and thought his tone was a bit curt to say the least [20:37] I'd like to see a genuine engagement with the concern about separate sites [20:37] I'll start a conversation, I think [20:38] bodhi is a really chill guy [20:38] it's probably a question of more communication needed [20:38] mdke: Could you elaborate on your concerns I missed the start of this conversation [20:39] http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/162435/ [20:39] that's the bit before you joined [20:39] ok, I have to go for a bit, forgot about dinner [20:41] alright im goin afk too, bbl [21:04] DoudieRichardson: What bug would you suggest I start on? [21:05] DougieRichardson: What bug would you suggest I start on? [21:05] Shane_Fagan: two secs dude [21:07] Shane_Fagan: What areas are you interested in / experienced in and how confident are you? [21:08] Well im a student programmer, [21:09] So im confident enough but not too experienced [21:09] Some would see we're always student programmers - while except Soustroup, Torvalds and Deitel ;-) [21:10] So I guess you're happy with markup languages then? [21:10] Ish learned a little but my area is desktop programs [21:11] So yep happy enough but havent done much [21:11] Cool, well if you want to jump in then Bug #362414 is probably a good place to start [21:11] Launchpad bug 362414 in ubuntu-docs "A note on having to manually deinterlace interlaced DVDs should be made" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/362414 [21:11] Gotta love ubot4 [21:11] Yep [21:12] We need to clarify the issue, I don't know if this issue is actually true or not so we need to confirm it first [21:12] You can either attempt to confirm on your own setup [21:13] Or Assign it to yourself and, set it as Incomplete and request confirmation from the submitter [21:13] Ill look into it cool [21:13] Let me know if you need more direction once you know where you're going [21:13] Your best bet is to email me [21:14] because I'm up to my eyes in a Java project this weekend [21:14] dougierichardson@ubuntu.com [21:44] DougieRichardson: Bug #362414 is invalid in jaunty [21:44] Launchpad bug 362414 in ubuntu-docs "A note on having to manually deinterlace interlaced DVDs should be made" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/362414 [21:45] Are there any others that would be easy to look into [21:45] Shane_Fagan: Awsome - that's one down. [21:45] Shane_Fagan: Try to give the submitter a few platitudes though to encourage them to submit in the future [21:46] "Thanks for taking the time to report this" and so on [21:47] Oh I understand [21:47] Its like walking a tightrope because we need to be as polite as possible but sometimes people can be very rude [21:47] How about bug #346892 ? [21:47] Launchpad bug 346892 in ubuntu-docs "games/C/games.xml:109 keymapping not input devices" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/346892 [21:48] DougieRichardson: Sure ill have a look [21:48] hi all :) [21:48] i'd like to contribute translation help, what can i do to get started?? [21:49] Hi Meg [21:49] hi [21:49] Have you looked over https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation [21:50] What languages do you speak? [21:50] Spanish (native), English, ... French and Italian (teacher of both these languages) [21:52] Fantastic, mdke and adiroiban are the best people to speak to [21:52] that's quite a resume [21:52] Did you see adi's talk on OpenWeek? [21:57] Ok, so can anybody tell me why when I view the wiki, some stuff is messed up. For instances, tables don't always show correctly [21:59] Thanks mdke for sponsoring the patch [22:01] Rocket2DMn: I hadn't noticed - any examples? [22:01] its on the team wiki [22:01] for instance: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam [22:01] look at the table under IRC - I can't see the separate between the two non-colored rows [22:02] separator* [22:03] some tables look ok, or some tables will only have a problem in one or two places [22:03] look at our meetings page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings [22:03] I don't see that or am being blonde [22:03] On some of the tables there I don't see column separators [22:04] Screenshot? [22:05] http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6779/screenshotbeginnersteam.png [22:06] Not from here - the seperators are there [22:06] Is this in FF? [22:06] yes, FF, do you see what im talkin about in the screenshot? [22:07] yes [22:07] the same thing happens with row separators [22:08] is noscript doing anything - is see the icon but not sure if that icon means on or off [22:08] the problem existed before i started using noscropt [22:08] what about adblock? [22:08] Ignore that [22:08] I'm using abp, duh [22:11] Hi, where can I find the IRC logs of the last doc team meeting? [22:11] i don't even remember the last one we had! [22:11] KelvinGardiner: do you mean the one focused on the installation guide? [22:13] No, the last general meeting, I was going to have a look at them before the meeting tomorrow. [22:14] Rocket2DMn: What's your browser identifying as? [22:14] KelvinGardiner: If you have the date of the meeting, you could look at irclogs.ubuntu.com [22:16] nhandler: I don't. I had a quick look at the logs and viewed the ones with a reasonable file size, but couldn't find it. It's not particularly important. [22:17] it's been a couple of years at least, I guess [22:19] July 2007, looks like [22:19] DougieRichardson, it should be identifying as firefox [22:20] Rocket2DMn: Just wondered if it was a CSS issue [22:20] User Agent is Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.0.10) Gecko/2009042523 Ubuntu/9.04 (jaunty) Firefox/3.0.10 [22:21] Rocket2DMn: Me to, next avenue... [22:22] Rocket2DMn: Stage 2 - have you tried doing a firefox -P and using a clean profile to check if its an extension or setting? [22:23] what does -P do? [22:23] has a nice dialog about profiles [22:24] sorry that was garbage - I'm tired and stupid , it starts without a profile loaded [22:25] works ok with a new profile, as it should [22:25] im not gonna go build up an entirely new profile though [22:25] OK, shall we try the halving method? [22:25] Disable half your extensions [22:26] see if its there [22:26] if not you know its in the off half and keep splitting till we find the culprit [22:26] alright hold on for a min [22:27] is there a way to just disable all [22:27] then at leats we woudl know its an extension [22:28] well the -P option did that so it's a fair stab [22:28] ok well i turned them all off and the problem ois still there [22:29] brb [22:30] what about if you're logged out of he wiki? [22:30] i tried removing the LP and wiki cookies [22:30] i gotta take a phone call right now though, ill bbiab [22:30] thanks for your help [22:30] cool [22:31] no worries mate [22:39] ok , back [22:44] hi [22:51] In the "Adding a software repository" section, why do we use "deb http://ftp.debian.org etch main" as the example? [22:51] I'm not aware of a special reason [22:51] We should probably change that [22:52] Maybe we could update it to give an example of adding a PPA [22:52] perhaps we should use the partner repository as an example [22:52] * nhandler thinks a PPA would be more useful [22:53] go on [22:53] Actually, I think PPA is a good idea too [22:53] Do we have any other documentation that discusses the PPAs? [22:53] Not in the system docs [22:53] they aren't really intended for users though [22:53] But given the number of Xorg drivers [22:53] whereas the partner repository i [22:53] +s [22:53] that are in ppa it might be an idea [22:54] mdke: I would have to disagree. Some PPAs are very stable [22:54] nhandler: but they might not be - they don't have any level of guaranteed quality control [22:54] They're also being mentioned more often on the forums too [22:54] as with the Ubuntu/Canonical archive [22:54] mdke: That is why we would not link to any specific PPA. It would be up to the user to decide which one to add [22:54] mdke: we can warn people about the risks [22:55] yes, we could do [22:55] It would also be a good place to explain how to import the PPA keys to be more secure [22:55] I was just thinking that the partner repository would be a good example because you don't need such a warning, and because it's intended for users [22:56] OK, then should we expand on PPA on the Wiki and link to it? [22:56] DougieRichardson: Launchpad has a decent wiki page explaining the PPAs as well [22:56] I'm not saying that we should not document PPAs, maybe we could do [22:56] What about a separate doc page about the PPAs? [22:57] If the LP page is good then we can just link to that? [22:57] For the wiki, that would work DougieRichardson [22:57] For the system too - PPA is going to need web access [22:58] DougieRichardson: Using a PPA needs web access, adding it does not [22:58] But we could add a link at the end of the PPA section in the system docs (if we create one) [22:59] nhandler: granted but that's kinda splitting hairs as it wont do anything [22:59] I don;t see a problem with expanding the system docs [22:59] Let me draft a PPA section. We can decide where to put it later [23:00] OK [23:00] I don't have a feel for how many ppas exist that are suitable for public consumption (do we even document -proposed?) but if there are a few out there, then we could add a section [23:00] Anyone dealing with intel xorg servers is likely to be interested in thsi [23:01] mdke: One example of a relatively stable PPA is the kubuntu-experimental one that we were using to provide newer kubuntu packages to intrepid users [23:05] nhandler: ok, I don't have a fundamental problem with it; I just think that if something is suitable for broad user consumption, it's likely to be in the main repository [23:05] I can't see a downside of adding a section though, properly explained [23:06] mdke: That depends. Some users use a PPA to distribute stable packages while they are waiting for a sponsor. Or a freeze might prevent them from uploading it [23:07] It is also an easy way to provide newer versions of packages for users of different versions of Ubuntu (without going through the backport process) [23:07] right, but those processes are there for a reason, they aren't just random hurdles [23:07] anyway, as I say, let's see how it looks, I think it's a good thing if you could draft a section [23:08] * nhandler will try to draft something by the end of the weekend [23:08] great [23:18] Is there a way to limit the width of a image in the wiki. The keyboard image on this page goes over the edge of the main page area. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AppleKeyboard I've seen this on a few other pages as well. [23:22] KelvinGardiner, i think you just need to make a thumbnail manually [23:23] Rocket2DMn: ok thanks. [23:35] mdke: I have had a chat with bodhi_zazen and doctormo about the learning thing