[00:01] hi [00:01] how do i assign a bug in the docs to myself? [00:01] saketh: Do you have a Launchpad account? [00:01] yes [00:02] saketh: Then just click the arrow next to the package name, and there will be an option to change the assignee [00:02] ok [00:02] tahnx [00:05] i still dont get how to change the assignee... [00:05] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs [00:05] i am here [00:06] ok, pick a bug [00:06] Ubuntu is mentioned in the xubuntu-doc [00:06] s [00:11] hello? [00:11] oh also... does anyone know what time the meeting is in pacific time? [00:12] you clicked the down arrow under the "Assigned to" in the navbar? [00:13] ummm no [00:13] after choosing a bug [00:14] mhm [00:16] regarding meeting time, click the date: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda [00:17] It would be 10 am [00:17] ok [00:17] wait... [00:17] I mean 12 [00:17] ok [00:17] i can show up then... [00:22] cool [00:24] so... about the bugs... [00:25] is it ok if i assign a bug to myself and it has already been assigned to my mentor? [00:30] DougieRichardson: ok, any progress? [00:31] mdke: Yes I think we're all moving in the right direction, I get the impression that other groups, such as MOTU have expressed similar concerns [00:32] ok [00:32] I spoke about the page we discussed earlier [00:33] What they would like is to have materials suited to learning available and have us produce material to train our new members' [00:34] I don't feel there's a conflict here having spoken to them, certainly not intentionally. [00:34] we need to make a distinction between what they have planned for users, and what they have planned for new contributors [00:34] my concern is mainly about users, because I'm worried that having more than one website for users to learn about Ubuntu is counterproductive [00:34] OK, can you eleborate on what you see being an issue when it comes to what they have planned for users? [00:35] it's an extra place to search, and confusing in terms of where they should be looking for information [00:35] if there is a better way to teach users, I'd much rather try and explore what we should be doing better on help.ubuntu.com [00:36] because our documentation really is about teaching users [00:37] in terms of contributors, a similar issue arises - we already have problems with giving clear information, so I personally would like to see us working on ensuring that the wiki pages are top notch and welcoming [00:37] I think its more linking to our documentation wherever possible [00:37] again, another website seems like it would introduce confusion [00:37] I agree that the wiki pages are essential but I suspect that this is going to be a big project that might be the sort of thing attracting searches before us. [00:38] if it's a software issue, I'd really like to have explained to me what moodle gives that the wiki can't - I'd just like to see some justification [00:38] going into these types of issues in detail will always reveal whether there is a genuine need for a project, or whether an existing project simply needs to be improved [00:39] I can see your point [00:39] e.g., to take your last point, if we're not attracting searches, we should find out why not, and fix it [00:40] They're very much in the design phase though so we should probably invest in their meetings. There are some very good people getting involved in their project [00:40] I'm trying not to make a decision for myself whether the project is really going to add value or not, because I don't feel that I'm being well informed enough about the pros and cons [00:41] OK well, why don't we attend their next meeting and discuss it with them [00:41] good idea [00:41] a spec would be kind of a good way to play concerns like these out, because then you can see what problem the project is trying to solve, and how it intends to resolve concerns like mine (and other people's) [00:42] I mean, its likely I'll be involved in their project any way because the desktop training team is investing in it - dinda and sabdfl are interested [00:43] I agree a spec would have been best but I think they're going to push ahead regardless - bodhi is paying for the server [00:43] I think the structure of the idea is what requires thought [00:44] the idea is basically that attracting introducing people to the community should be done through a specific site and a specific team [00:44] that's a completely new concept for the community, I think - to date different areas have worked on attracting contributors through their team pages on the wiki [00:44] I'm not totally against the idea, but I'd really like to see it better rationalised [00:45] attracting contribution is only a part of what they envisage - they want to centralise all Ubuntu learning subjects [00:45] you mean re-centralise [00:46] where are they currently centralised? [00:46] that used to be the role of wiki.ubuntu.com [00:46] we moved user help out of there because we thought (after a very detailed and carefully discussed spec) that it was right to separate them [00:47] Moodle does offer some advantages for teaching in a distributed environment. If you want to see a good example of it then have a look at Openlearn [00:47] I suppose I have a kind of instinctive reaction where I see something that hasn't gone through much community wide discussion [00:47] and is steaming ahead anway [00:47] http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/ [00:48] Matthew, I appreciate that and I feel that some of this has not been gone about in the correct way but the intention is good. I think the documentation team would be better served by getting involved in this initiative now where we can help shape it [00:49] mdke: Can I bring txwikinger in on this [00:49] hi folks [00:50] sure [00:50] hi txwikinger [00:50] hi mdke [00:50] You were wondering earlier what moodle can bring [00:50] moodle is bascially a virtual learning environment [00:51] It is used by Universities, e.g. Open University uses it very successful [00:51] und more and more also by Secondary Schools and Colleges [00:51] You allows you to bring in interactivity [00:52] what sort of interactivity? [00:52] You can have activities where the stuff that is learned can be practiced with tasks [00:52] you can have quizzes for self-assessment about what you have learned [00:52] you can redo those quizzes to see if you have learned more [00:53] you can mix in all kinds of resources [00:53] what would it bring in terms of user help? [00:53] and if you have a group learning together, you can have a lot of group activities too [00:54] the progress what people do can be seen by tutors [00:54] so they can mentor the people learning more eficiently [00:54] you bascially can have course instructors that help the learning [00:55] right [00:55] Fundamentally moodle is getting closer and closer to bring a online classroom to the students at home [00:56] like distance learning just a lot more directly interactive [00:56] and with automatic tools for students to assess their progress themselves [00:56] those self-assessment they can then share with the course instructors [00:56] so they can easier see where the particular student has problems [00:57] It is not anything new [00:57] it is a new way of presenting the material that is available or can be used outside moodle too [00:57] and I platform for a"dialogue of learning" [00:59] As a distance learnign lecturer I have experienced that most students need this interactivity and also contact with other students and a mentor or lecturer in order to learn efficiently [00:59] Sorry, I didn't want to hog the conversation like that, just wanted to explain a little what opportunities moodle can bring [00:59] that's fine, thanks for the detailed explanation [00:59] no problem [01:00] but if moodle provides these features, what would be the point in keeping wikis around at all? [01:00] a wiki is very good for collaboration [01:00] but moodle seems to be as well [01:01] well.. moodle has a wiki feature as well [01:01] but that is really for places where you dont want to set up another wiki [01:01] or need the particular moderating [01:01] moodle is more a communication plaform that emulates learning as if you were in the same room [01:02] and gives you a structure you would have in a real school [01:02] it's an advanced content management system, as you've described it [01:02] right? [01:03] yes, in some way [01:03] A specialised contant management system or learning [01:03] content [01:03] what I have trouble with is the concept of maintaining two content management systems with a similar, or overlapping, purpose [01:03] or at the very least, overlapping content [01:04] I understand your concern [01:04] that strikes me as being beyond the reach of most teams around [01:04] so the question I automatically ask when something like this comes up [01:05] is (a) can our existing tools achieve the stated purpose well enough, or (b) can the new tool achieve all our purposes? [01:05] I think there is a potential for overlap but that if the teams work together this can be effectively managed and there is a benefit to us in providing an environment to support training our own students [01:05] obviously there will always be a question of dgree [01:05] but the extent to which those questions can be answered with a positive is to weigh up against the difficulties of maintaining two resources [01:06] I don't think that moodle would replace wikis [01:06] however, there is no problem to use the existing wiki as one of the resources for moodle [01:06] DougieRichardson: I'm a bit more cynical than you are about what can be effectively achieved though; and I'm not that convinced that we can't support our new contributors really well by improving the wiki resources that we have [01:07] For me, a wiki is very good for people working together on something [01:07] However, it is not a very good or efficient medium for people to learn [01:07] moodle is particularly build for the purpose of making it easy for people to learn something [01:08] txwikinger: I absolutely accept that, of course [01:08] mdke: I think this is where we agree to differ - I don't think that the wiki is sufficient for a large enough number of our contributers [01:08] it allows synergy by the re-use of any resources that are available [01:08] you don't have to redo all of that [01:09] it adds additional features that are very important for the learning progress [01:09] txwikinger: so how does it work can you literally automatically include sections of a wiki page, so that if you update the wiki page, the moodle site is also updated automatically? [01:09] yes [01:09] may I join this conversation as well ? [01:09] you can put in links to anything you want to [01:09] bodhi_zazen: of course [01:09] hi bodhi_zazen [01:09] thank you :) [01:09] txwikinger: but can you actually include text from a separate site [01:09] hey txwikinger :) [01:10] and have it update automatically if the separate site changes? [01:10] first, if you are interested, we have a channel you are all welcome to [01:10] #ubuntu-learning [01:10] we have some really nice team members there as [01:11] mdke: I am not why you would want to do that [01:11] Second, as you know, this is an outbranching of the beginners team [01:11] Either you want the text not to change, then you would copy the text [01:11] the beginners team collaborates with several other teams as well, and quite successfully I might add [01:11] if you want to have all changes anyway, you would not want to copy it [01:12] bodhi_zazen: certainly [01:12] Moodle, or similar, fills a similar, but very different need then the wiki [01:13] yes, txwikinger has given a good explanation [01:13] Everyone learns as his or her own way [01:13] Moodle is just another format and IMO enhances the wiki content [01:14] DougieRichardson: just to come back on your point a few minutes ago, I'm not saying the wiki is entirely sufficient, but that it can be improved (through initiatives like those we've seen in the MOTU team and some of which you've applied to our team already) [01:14] What is very nice, the learning team can contribute to the wiki, and we can then use existing content to present it is a different venue if you will [01:14] Well Moodle allows a lot of didactic and paedagogic techniques that are difficult ot achieve in a wiki [01:15] DougieRichardson: irc classes, playbook, walkthroughs etc [01:15] It is a tool for learning [01:15] it can not replace the wiki, nor is that the goal [01:15] mdke: i agree it can be improved - this initiative integrates the IRC and walkthrough elements [01:15] likewise, it fills a need that some people feel are unmet by the wiki [01:16] * txwikinger agrees with that [01:16] bodhi_zazen: I understand (thanks to txwikinger) what value is added; but what worries me is that it will (a) require us to dedicate substantial resources to maintaining two sites; and (b) introduces potential confusion for people about which of the two sites they should be using [01:16] bodhi_zazen: I'm just trying to weigh up the considerations in my mind [01:16] Ah [01:17] and another consideration of course is whether the wiki can be improved [01:17] whether by content or adding features [01:17] Well, yes, it will require maintance [01:17] given how seriously invested the Ubuntu community is in our wiki [01:17] I don't think anything will be taken away from the wiki [01:17] but we are neither asking or excluding the doc team to maintain moodle [01:18] we are looking to collaborate [01:18] * mdke nods [01:18] indeed [01:18] bodhi_zazen: to be absolutely clear, I'm not taking a position against the project, at all; but I do want to see a better quality discussion around the community about it that has happened to date [01:18] s/that/than [01:18] I find there are people with a different background then mine, education (is school) [01:18] to give you an example [01:18] and they are very very interested in wiki [01:18] we used to have online documentation on wiki.ubuntu.com [01:19] * bodhi_zazen listens [01:19] after some serious thought we drew up a specification justifying why we thought it was sensible to move documentation to a separate website at help.ubuntu.com [01:19] we took the spec to the CC for discussion [01:19] (after a lot of work on it) [01:19] this was before I was on the CC [01:20] it became apparent that they had concerns which we hadn't raised in the spec, and the idea was rejected [01:20] OUCH [01:20] it was one of the more disappointing moments in my volunteer work for Ubuntu [01:20] Well, such may be the fate of this project as well [01:20] but I quickly realised that the reason it was rejected was because we hadn't actually justified it properly, or addressed their concerns in the specification [01:21] But that is a "risk" I am willing to take [01:21] so we went back and did that, and then got it approved [01:21] +1 on that [01:21] Well, we have worked very hard on that [01:21] And we have support / approval from Canonical on this [01:21] the point I want to make is that the quality of a discussion around potential problems with a project is what will ultimately make it successful, and acceptable to the community [01:21] we have been approved to use the Ubuntu trade mark [01:22] Well.. another reason for me to do this project on moodle is that I think one of the handicaps for linux to spread at the moment is the need for professional training [01:22] that's fine [01:22] and we have been approved to use learn.ubuntu.com (subdomain) [01:22] but the wiki page at the moment doesn't really answer any of my questions [01:22] I only fully understood the benefits of moodle until txwikinger took the trouble to give a very good explanation here [01:22] what wiki page mdke :) [01:22] wiki/Learning [01:22] course moduls in moode form can allow the leverage of many independent professionals to leverage training to customers [01:23] ah, well, part of our "problem" now [01:23] and this discussion has been quite productive I think [01:23] is we went the reverse direction [01:23] therefore raising the brand of ubuntu to another level [01:23] but all these issues need to be explained somewhere [01:23] we approached Canonical first [01:23] building project second [01:23] Canonical isn't Ubuntu though [01:24] so we are (hopefully) starting with support, and build from there [01:24] they just control the trademark :) [01:24] well, yes, but you get the idea [01:24] I see what you are saying [01:25] to be honest, the biggest problem we have is "overwhelming interest" in the project [01:25] but I don't agree with it - I'd like to see you justify the project to the whole community and address any concerns that are raised; because that's just healthy community, for me [01:25] by that I mean, we have so many people interested in the project, we have not built anything yet, lol [01:25] I'm pretty sure you have views on all the points that I'd raise, and can produce answers [01:25] they just aren't written down [01:26] mdke: well we have done exactly that [01:26] The idea was presented to all the ubuntu community members in a now infamous mass email [01:26] lol [01:26] I haven't seen it [01:26] oh yeah [01:26] I replied to that email, and didn't get a response [01:27] but I think you're misunderstanding [01:27] that email was a general overview [01:27] Well, as I said, when we sent the email we thought, gee lets get teh idea out and see what happens [01:27] I can appreciate that [01:27] I see the enthusiasm [01:28] What happened is we found large numbers of people interested, and so are proceeding [01:28] getting a specification written would be a sensible step now [01:28] bodhi_zazen: yeah, I've understood your point. It's an error, in my view [01:29] no, your concerns are very reasonable [01:29] as DougieRichardson says, writing a specification to outline in detail the problem that you are trying to solve, how it will be solved, and to answer any potential concerns, would go a long way to putting this on the right footing [01:29] for example, the spec I spoke about earlier is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterWikiDocs [01:29] see how it's structured [01:30] if you copy and paste what txwikinger said about moodle before you came in, you've got one sub-section sorted already [01:30] good point [01:30] FYI : http://paste.ubuntu.com/147415/ [01:30] ok, that's a first step, cool [01:31] you need a detailed "Rationale" section [01:32] I shall ask that that information be added / updated to our wiki page ASAP [01:32] I wonder if there could be some kind of a mockup for the site structure [01:32] there's nothing quite like seeing an idea in action [01:33] mdke: they have a skeleton site [01:34] cool [01:34] ok, I'm going to have to duck out, it's really late now [01:34] thanks txwikinger and bodhi_zazen for the time [01:34] DougieRichardson: surely it's past your bed time as well :) [01:34] mdke: thank you [01:34] mdke has been a pleasure [01:35] and thank for your work generally [01:35] mdke: damn straight, my eyes are on stalks [01:35] * mdke nods sleepily [01:35] Please, if you have questions or would like to see such things as you have mentioned, we would be happy to oblige [01:35] night :) [01:35] ttfn [01:35] bodhi_zazen: let's talk again after the specification is complete [01:36] bodhi_zazen: maybe it could be discussed at a CC meeting, it's a perfect subject to have a good community chat about [01:36] mdke: thanks mate [01:36] night all [01:37] night [05:30] Hi, I'm a new Ubuntu user and I just wanted to point out something I learned the hard way. If you use a 64 char hex key for WPA2 personal, network manager will try to use it as a passphrase instead of a literal PKI [05:32] I couldn't find an easy way to force it to use the key literally so I ended up having to change the key on my router to a passphrase to get the connection to work [16:43] Hey im stuck, im working on Bug #346892 [16:43] Launchpad bug 346892 in ubuntu-docs "games/C/games.xml:109 keymapping not input devices" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/346892 [18:02] anyone here? [18:14] o/ [18:23] sup nhandler [18:24] are you part of the DocumentationTeam? [18:26] pace_t_zulu: Not yet. Do you have a question about the doc team? [18:31] nhandler: i am interested in joining [18:32] pace_t_zulu: I would suggest sending an email to the mailing list. You can then read through the different wiki pages to learn about how to start contributing. There is also a doc team in a few hours that you should attend [18:34] nhandler: I have been contributing for a little while now... I would like to become more involved [18:36] then start editing stuff ;) [18:36] pace_t_zulu, you can subscrive to the mailing list here - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc [18:37] Rocket2DMn: thank you [18:37] philip_: I have been editing stuff actively... you will see me in the logs [18:37] Rocket2DMn and philip_ are either of you on the Documentation team? [18:38] yes [18:38] i'm not [18:38] Rocket2DMn: would the first step (beyond editing community documentation) be to subscribe to the mailing list? [18:39] pace_t_zulu, yes, that is a logical next step. you should consider sending an email to the list after you subscribe, just briefly introducing yourself and letting the team know that you are interested in helping. [18:39] Rocket2DMn: thank you for the advice... I appreciate your time [18:39] if there is something in particular that you want to work on, say so, otherwise you can ask for some direction [18:40] no problem pace_t_zulu , that's why we're here [19:04] nhandler: yes you are! [19:12] mdke: Technically, yes. I am part of the students team (an open team) which is part of the doc team. [19:14] nhandler: not just technically [19:33] i emailed the ubuntu-doc list [19:36] thanks guys for helping me [19:42] the doc-team meeting is in 30 minutes rite? [19:43] saketh: will the doc-team meeting be on this channel or #ubuntu-meeting [19:44] #ubuntu-meeting [19:44] it's currently planned to be in this channel [19:44] OH [19:44] ok... [19:44] although we may want to do it in #ubuntu-meeting in the usual way [19:44] mhm [19:44] well... [19:45] is it still in 15 mins rite? [19:45] yes [19:46] ok... just in this channel? [19:46] ill just join both chanels in case... [19:47] guess I'm a tad early [19:48] me too... [19:49] is there a schedule regarding meetings? or is this something that would show up in the ubuntu-doc mailing list [19:50] pace_t_zulu: i dunno [19:50] saketh: how did you know about this meeting? [19:51] pace_t_zulu: ummm my mentor told me [19:52] pace_t_zulu: yes, if you subscribe to the mailing list you'll get info about future meetings; you can also find the info here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda [19:52] ok [19:52] mdke: i subscribed about an hour ago and sent out an email introducing myself [19:52] great [19:52] i agree [19:54] i failed to include my launchpad username on the email... apologies... my mistake [19:54] don't worry, it doesn't matter [19:54] welcome [19:54] mdke: thank you ... glad to be a part of things [19:55] ok [19:55] i hope i can be an asset to the Ubuntu project [19:55] hey matt, sorry I've been out of touch/the loop as of late, but you know how things get. [19:55] technomensch: sure thing [19:56] do you remember when we were talking about the openssh docs and getting it into the server guide? [19:56] yeah [19:56] yo... its time for the meeting now rite? [19:57] any good recommendation on who I could work with who's familiar with the guide because after our whole mailing discussion about branches, and making changes, I'm not that big on breaking the working wheel [19:57] Hi Everybody. I haven't introduced myself on the list yet, but my name is Mike Matis . . . and I'm an ubuntuholic [19:57] technomensch: sommer is the person to work with on the serverguide [19:57] hi Mike [19:57] hi mike!!!!!! [19:57] mmatis: heh, welcome [19:58] thanks, I'm PM him after the meeting [19:58] I should properly introduce myself [19:58] :] [19:58] Hi everyone, my name is John Haitas [19:58] i shud too! [19:58] HI all! [19:58] i m saketh kasibatla [19:59] probably the only high schooler here! [19:59] Good evening all. (its evening where I am anyway) [19:59] Hi saketh! [19:59] hi [19:59] I'd like to suggest that we do the meeting in #ubuntu-meeting [19:59] saketh: i wouldn't be certain of that... we're happy you are here just the same [19:59] does anyone have any objections? [19:59] same here [19:59] nope [19:59] second [20:00] can do [20:00] yeah... [20:00] dougie.....long time no speak [20:00] see you there ... [20:00] ok bye! [20:00] technomensch: good to see you [20:00] see ya there [20:08] mfitzhugh: hey, glad you could make it - we're meeting in the channel #ubuntu-meeting [20:09] Cool - thanks! [20:45] hello all, i have a question,.... i'm in Ubuntu Server 9.04 [20:45] reading https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OpenWebMail [20:45] but openwebmail is't in the repos.... [20:46] ummm [20:46] i use ubuntu desktop [20:46] so i really cant answer your qtn... [20:47] srry :( [20:47] btw meeting in #ubuntu-meeting [20:47] hollman: we are in a meeting but if you would like to raise a bug report I'll look into it? [20:50] DougieRichardson, ok [20:50] https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bugs ? [20:50] hollman: yes please [20:50] DougieRichardson, ;) [21:09] DougieRichardson, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/370996 [21:09] hollman: Error: This bug is private [21:09] brb [21:10] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/370996 [21:10] Launchpad bug 370996 in ubuntu-docs "doc community webmail are wrong" [Undecided,New] [21:10] hollman: cheers [22:06] mdke: you here? [22:06] my wife thinks I'm being anti-social so I'll see everyone later [22:06] Kentucky Derby [22:06] DougieRichardson: :) catch you soon [22:06] pace_t_zulu: yep [22:06] DougieRichardson: later... nice meeting you [22:06] mdke: have a good flight - see you [22:06] thx [22:07] mdke: who is responsible for changing the name of ubuntu-doc-students to ubuntu-doc-contributors ? [22:07] me [22:09] mdke: Sorry for missing the meeting. I'm reading through the logs now [22:10] nhandler: no worries - we didn't quite get to your agenda item, however I think part of it is addressed by the Organization page that we discussed [22:10] About the low-hanging-fruit idea, what about talking to dholbach about setting up something like harvest for the Doc Team? [22:10] nhandler: i think harvest covers our bugs too, I've used it in the past [22:11] mdke: It does, but if we are going to start using special tags to identify different types of bugs, we will want harvest to be able to know about those tags/bugs [22:11] mdke: any projection on when you can get that done? [22:11] nhandler: I see [22:11]