/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/05/02/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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sakethhello19:39
sakeththe documentation team meeting is in 30 minutes rite?19:39
cody-somervillesaketh, in 10 now19:50
sakethhuh?19:56
sakethoh19:56
sakethyeah19:56
sakeththanx19:56
mdkeok, this is the Documentation Team meeting20:00
sakethyup yup20:01
mdkeit's going to be a lot of stuff to cover, so we're going to have a make an effort to keep the discussion nice and focused20:01
sakethyeah20:01
technomenschbefore we being, for the record of the IRC chat, can you repost the link to the agenda20:01
mdkesure20:02
mdkeI think we should use the MootBot to help facilitate that, and to collect meeting notes20:02
sakethhuh?20:02
sakethok20:02
mdkeanyone object?20:02
technomenschsecond20:02
sakethno objection20:02
sakethhow use moobot?20:02
pace_t_zulusecond, no objection20:02
mdkesaketh: don't worry, I'll explain20:02
sakethok20:02
sakethtahnx20:02
pace_t_zuluis MooBot documented? haha20:02
mdke#startmeeting20:03
MootBotMeeting started at 14:03. The chair is mdke.20:03
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]20:03
sakethok...20:03
sakethnow...20:03
sakethhow use?20:03
mdkeso, I'll try and handle the topics and people can just discuss them normally20:03
sakethok20:03
sakethgot it20:03
mdkeif someone wants to formally record an idea for the notes, please preface the statement with [IDEA]20:04
sakethok20:04
mdkethe meeting agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda20:04
sakethok20:04
mdkePhil Bull may not be able to attend - he sends his apologies but he has been caught without irc access20:05
sakethok20:05
mdke[TOPIC] Introduction of team members20:05
MootBotNew Topic:  Introduction of team members20:05
sakethi gotta go do a chore for mom real quick20:05
sakethbrb20:05
mdkelet's find out who's here :)20:05
KelvinGardinerI'm here.20:06
DougieRichardsonEvening20:06
mdkeI'm Matthew East, I tend to take care of the administrative side of the team's activities, such as uploading packages, translations and the website20:06
sakethok i m bak20:06
mdkethe wiki agenda calls for a brief introduction of what people do and their interests, so shoot :)20:06
cody-somervilleHi, I'm Cody Somerville. I'm the Xubuntu Project Lead and also a member of the doc commit group.20:07
pace_t_zuluJohn Haitas, new member to the ubuntu-doc mailing list. Aspiring member to the Documentation Team.20:07
DougieRichardsonI'm Dougie Richardson, I predominantly work with Internet and Networking and a member of the commit group20:07
sakethI m saketh kasibatla the only person in here who is still in high school20:07
sakethbtw i m new20:08
KelvinGardinerI'm Kelvin Gardiner I'm new to the team and looking to help with the 9.10 install guide and new to Ubuntu docs20:08
sakethbtw i wanna help with xubuntu docs20:08
technomenschI"m Marc Kaplan and I'm on the Wiki Team, of which the levels were on I think for discussion later in the meeting....One of my central focuses is streamlining, organizing, updating/removing outdated info20:09
pace_t_zuluI would like to contribute to areas in particular need of attention. I have bee working on WebKit, Chromium, MATLAB, Programming, and VMware20:09
mmatisHi Everyone. My name is Mike Matis. I run the IT Dept. of a very small college on the east coast of the US (Maine). I've used Ubuntu since Edgy. Started out with Mandrake, then Slackware in 2000. I joined to help with the new ubiquity help files - specifically the partitioner.20:09
pace_t_zuluI have been using ubuntu since 2006 (Dapper)20:10
mdkemfitzhugh: just doing some brief introductions at the moment20:10
sakethok i gotta go do more chores again...20:10
sakethsrry20:10
technomenschsaketh, afk or brb would be sufficient20:11
mdkeok, let's move on to the first agenda item20:11
mfitzhughHi - i'm new to ubuntu, but am finding it a great way to combine interests in writing and tech.20:11
mdke[TOPIC] Decide about placement of documentation branches within Launchpad20:11
MootBotNew Topic:  Decide about placement of documentation branches within Launchpad20:11
mdkeI prepared a summary of this issue here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-April/012733.html20:12
sakethok20:12
sakethok20:12
sakethsrry20:12
technomenschlet's take a moment to review the link before proceeding....for those who have not had a chance to do so yet....if there are no objections...20:12
mdkeyes, certainly20:12
DougieRichardsonHas anyone got any strong feelings one way or the other?20:13
sakethi think that its pretty good rite now20:14
sakethas it is20:14
technomenschI'm a fan of keeping like materials together20:14
mdkeI have a slight preference for the single project scheme, for the reason I've expressed on the mailing list20:14
saketh but it took a while for me to figure out how to get the doc source...20:14
sakethbut maybe thats just me20:14
mdkesaketh: yes, you joined at a time where we have inconsistent placement of our docs; that's what we're working on at the moment20:15
sakethok20:15
DougieRichardsonOf the "pros" I don't see any significant advantage other than the second point20:15
sakethsorry to be a pain20:15
technomenschthis is not a discussion to differencite the docs of the different flavors, just the packages within the flavors, correct?20:15
sakethyup20:15
mdketechnomensch: it's about where we store the documents of different flavours on Launchpad20:16
KelvinGardinerHow useful will point 2 of the Pros be?20:16
sakethafk20:16
mfitzhughThere is something to be said for simplicity, but good docs could make that a less important point.20:16
DougieRichardsonOf the "cons" I don't agree with the divergence issue so that only leaves an increase in house keeping20:16
mfitzhughGood "getting started" with the docs team I meant20:17
pace_t_zuluI am not going to weigh in either way. I am too new to do so in an informed manner.20:18
mdkemfitzhugh: yes, the main problem is the lack of consistency at the moment, I'm sure that we can properly document either approach, as long as we pick one20:18
mdkeit's essential that we pick one, IMO20:18
mdkecody-somerville: any thoughts on the summary I posted?20:18
cody-somervilleI certainly have some comments on the topic20:18
cody-somervilleI apologize for not being able to articulate a reply yet20:19
cody-somervilleI've been very busy with the recent release as well as with work.20:19
cody-somervilleHowever, IIRC, you said that you're open to the idea of trying the project group approach?20:19
cody-somervilleIf thats the case, I'd very happy to help facilitate that.20:20
technomenschno worries cody, even after all this time, i'm still trying to wrap my head around how launchpad works because I haven't had the time to sit and read through our documentation....20:20
mmatisCould someone provide some background as to why the current arrangement is a problem?20:20
sakethsame here20:20
cody-somervilleDepends on what we consider the "current arrangement"20:20
technomenschmatt, for those new, a quick launchpad lesson might be in order20:20
sakethgracias20:21
mdketechnomensch: did you read the first bit of my post on the mailing list?20:21
mdke4th and 5th paragraphs20:21
technomenschyes....I have it open in a window next to this chat session20:21
mdkedoes that not help?20:22
pace_t_zuludoes the current method have some sort of Version Control System?20:22
mdkecody-somerville: do you happen to know whether Launchpad will support branches on packages any time soon?20:22
cody-somervillemdke, Its definitely in the work20:23
mdkepresumably it's essential for the plans to host all Ubuntu source in bzr20:23
cody-somervilleIt is20:23
mdkeany idea of timescale?20:23
cody-somervilleDifficult to say when it comes to launchpad20:23
cody-somervillePriorities get shifted frequently20:23
sakethso what u wanna decide about is to keep seperate projects for say ubuntu and kubuntu docs20:24
sakethvs20:24
sakethone project with different branches...20:24
sakethrite?20:25
mdkeyes20:25
cody-somervilleIts a little bit more complicated than that20:25
sakethok20:25
cody-somervilleBut thats the basic premise20:25
sakethmhm20:25
sakethafk20:25
technomenschI happen to disagree with that concept, but I can see why we would need to wait for branches to be available20:25
mdkecody-somerville: I've been looking at some group projects recently, and they strike me as rather disorganised - I'm not convinced they would improve the organisation of our branches at all20:25
mdkeif you look at these pages:20:26
mdkehttps://code.launchpad.net/mozilla20:26
cody-somervilleThe Launchpad paradigm is that each project (previously called product) is related to a distinct codebase20:26
cody-somervilleAll of the features available to projects and all future features resolve around this paradigm20:27
sakethmhm20:27
mdkeand20:27
mdkehttps://launchpad.net/bazaar/+milestones20:27
mdkeyou get the idea that things could get horrendously out of sync20:27
technomenschI think that is a grave understatement20:27
cody-somervilleThose are some very messy examples20:28
mdkethat's why I chose them20:28
sakethso the mozilla part of launchpad is what we want to be like?20:28
cody-somervilleBut lets consider if all those projects were just one project20:28
cody-somervilleWould the situation be any different?20:28
cody-somervilleThose views would be the exact same regardless if we're one project or many20:28
mdkewell, not the milestone page20:28
mdkeit's messy like that because each project has got out of sync with its releases20:29
cody-somervillemdke, We could prevent that by having an agreed set of milestones20:29
cody-somervillemdke, Or asking launchpad to allow us to share milestones20:29
mdkeI don't really buy the "This is how LP intends us to work", because really, LP intends group projects to be for separate projects with no shared code20:29
mdkewe do share code, and in fact, we should share a lot more than we do20:29
cody-somervilleI've spoken with the launchpad team20:29
cody-somervilleIt is their opinion IIRC that project groups would be exactly what we're looking for20:30
sakethdoes launchpad allow for webpages like a sourceforge page?20:30
cody-somervilleNo20:30
cody-somervilleThe biggest features that I'm looking to enable flavours to take advantage of are series20:30
mdkecody-somerville: it depends on how you define "what we're looking for"20:30
cody-somervilleEspecially so with the Xubuntu docs unable to take advantage of the traditional translation support provided by soyuz+rosetta with the Xubuntu docs being in the universe component.20:31
technomenschI still believe that centralizing the code is one step closer to centralizing the flavors, whether anyone see is it or not, and that is something I am in favor of.  I know that's a discussion for another time, but it is something to consider.......cont'd20:31
cody-somervilleCentralizing the code really has nothing to do with having separate projects20:31
technomenschimagine all of the docs together, and each flavor merely referrencing the need for that area.20:31
cody-somervilleRegardless of how we set this up, all branches will continue to be owned by the same team20:32
mdkecody-somerville: what's the reason that you used a different team as the project driver when you set up the xubuntu-docs project?20:32
cody-somervillemdke, Let me take a look20:32
pace_t_zulukeep in mind that the mozilla project is not an good exemplar on which to base a decision... i don't believe launchpad is the primary base for the mozilla project20:32
mdkepace_t_zulu: that project is used primarily for code developed by Ubuntu developers who work on Mozilla products for Ubuntu20:33
mdkeMozilla don't use it, you're right20:33
pace_t_zulucorrect me if i am wrong, but we are talking about making Launchpad the primary base for all Ubuntu documentation activity20:34
mdkeit already is20:34
technomenschwe are talking about the docbook code used to make our actual documents,20:34
mdkeit's just a technical structural point20:34
technomenschthe ones that come in the help for the distro and are available on help.ubuntu.com20:34
cody-somervillemdke, I believe I set it to that team to simply affiliate that team with the project. Since we don't use advantage of bugs for the project, I don't think it affects any permissions or anything of the sort. With the same team being the maintainer, the core doc team retains the same rights and privileges.20:34
* cody-somerville didn't type that very well.20:35
technomenschmdke and cody, can you two possibly back-track and redefine that for the rest of us20:35
pace_t_zuluapologies for my comments... like I said before, being new it is hard for me to appreciate the nuances of this discussion20:35
DougieRichardsonWould setting the driver to the doc team again would alleviate the second con that mdke stated?20:35
mdkeno, we'd still have to maintain the series separately20:36
mdkebut it would make me happier :)20:36
cody-somervilleI have no problem changing that20:36
mdkeso here's a proposal20:36
technomenschis the driver the admin of the group of docs for that particular project?20:36
cody-somervilletechnomensch, no20:36
DougieRichardsonmdke: then we have a potential for compromise - does xubuntu need this change20:36
DougieRichardsoncody-somerville: sorry that was meant for you, would this change improve xubuntu's processes20:37
mdke[IDEA] we try the separate project (with group project) approach for six months, and reevaluate the position after karmic is release. The setup and team management of the projects should be identical for each, and the releases and official branch structure should be identical20:37
MootBotIDEA received:  we try the separate project (with group project) approach for six months, and reevaluate the position after karmic is release. The setup and team management of the projects should be identical for each, and the releases and official branch structure should be identical20:37
cody-somerville+120:37
cody-somervillemdke, I think thats a great idea20:37
technomensch+120:37
cody-somervilleIf it doesn't work then by all means lets re-evaluate and change it back if we feel that to be best20:38
saketh+120:38
DougieRichardsonso how does voting work on MootBot?20:38
pace_t_zulu[AGREED]20:38
technomenschfor six months, I'm game to at least see it in action.  I ebleive that all good ideas should at least be given a chance20:38
pace_t_zulu+120:38
KelvinGardiner+120:38
mdkeDougieRichardson: this isn't a vote at the moment, but express your opinion anyway20:38
DougieRichardson+120:38
mdke:)20:38
mdke[AGREED] we try the separate project (with group project) approach for six months, and reevaluate the position after karmic is release. The setup and team management of the projects should be identical for each, and the releases and official branch structure should be identical20:39
MootBotAGREED received:  we try the separate project (with group project) approach for six months, and reevaluate the position after karmic is release. The setup and team management of the projects should be identical for each, and the releases and official branch structure should be identical20:39
mdke[ACTION] mdke and cody-somerville to follow up and make the changes in Launchpad20:39
MootBotACTION received:  mdke and cody-somerville to follow up and make the changes in Launchpad20:39
pace_t_zulumdke: apologies for misuse of MootBot20:39
mdkepace_t_zulu: :)20:39
sakethw8 so what is this all about again?20:39
DougieRichardsonDemocracy in action - is almost worth missing a barbeque20:39
technomenschto quote jed bartlett "what's next?"20:39
mdkewe will post the meeting notes to the mailing list first, to see if anyone not present now has any objections20:39
sakethok20:40
mdkethe next agenda item20:40
sakethok20:40
mdke[TOPIC] Clearer identification of tasks - please see the meeting agenda for detailed explanation of this topic20:40
MootBotNew Topic:  Clearer identification of tasks - please see the meeting agenda for detailed explanation of this topic20:40
pace_t_zuluMeeting Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda20:41
sakethso this is about who fixes submitted bugs in the docs and the like rite?20:41
mdkethanks pace_t_zulu20:41
technomenschCan we please include wiki tasks in this discussion?20:41
pace_t_zulumdke: you're welcome :)20:41
technomenschor would that complicate matters?20:41
mdketechnomensch: yes, let's discuss those too, although different considerations could apply so we'll talk about them shortly20:41
mdkethe idea comes from the fact that the Tasks page for SystemDocumentation quickly gets out of date20:42
cody-somerville[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda20:42
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda20:42
mdkeand we find it difficult to keep up with it20:42
mdkeif we use bugs exclusively to manage our tasks, I think that it will be better organised20:42
cody-somerville[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks20:42
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks20:42
sakethi guess20:42
DougieRichardsonI propose the use of a tags and an explanatory page on the wiki20:43
mdkethe bug list is quite disorganised, so we'll need to ...20:43
sakethsecond that20:43
mdkewhat DougieRichardson said :)20:43
technomenschI agree that we should use bugs, however, I think that it could get messy on the mailing list.....20:43
mdketechnomensch: go on20:43
DougieRichardsona lot of students ask for suitable bugs to start on so I propose a "low hanging fruit" one20:43
sakethfor ppl like me...20:43
DougieRichardsontechnomensch: agree a small subset and adhere to them?20:44
technomenschif each bug goes to the mailing list, not everyone would need it20:44
pace_t_zuluDougieRichardson: second20:44
mfitzhughTaggin makes great sense because you don't have to always update the wiki to add new starter bugs20:44
sakethand for more experienced ppl, the tougher bugs20:44
mdkeI don't think we should outline all the possible bugs tags here and now20:44
mdkeit will take a bit of time, so I'd suggest that we prepare them and then discuss on the mailing list20:44
technomenschI think that if we have bugs, then we might want to consider a doc-bug list20:44
mdketechnomensch: bugs don't go to the mailing list20:44
sakeththey dont?20:45
mdkeno20:45
sakeththen where do they go?20:45
sakethbtw i sent a bug fix 4 bug 35844720:45
mdketo the people who subscribe to them20:45
sakethand it hasnt20:45
sakethbeen commited yet...20:45
ubottuError: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/358447/+text)20:45
mdkebrb phone20:46
sakethok20:46
DougieRichardsonsaketh: can we stay on topic :-)20:46
sakethsorry20:47
sakethi m a bit hyper today20:47
sakethtoo much sugar20:47
technomenschgood to see you sommer20:48
sommerhey, sorry for being late20:48
pace_t_zuluHi sommer, my name is John Haitas. I am new here.20:49
sakethhi sommer20:50
sakethi m saketh20:50
sakethkasibatla20:50
sakethnewbie extrordinaire20:50
mmatisDougieRichardson: By tagging, do you essentially mean replacing the text on the tasks page with links to corresponding bugs in launchpad?20:50
DougieRichardsonmmatis: could do, but at least a clear description of what to look for - so say you wanted a straight forward bug to start on the wiki page would point in the right direction20:51
mmatisgot it20:52
sakethDougieRichardson: so u mean that say i wanted a bug related to xubuntu, id look for a bug tagged xubuntu20:53
DougieRichardsonsaketh: there's already a link for that at the top of the current page20:53
sakethok20:53
sakethsorry to be a pain20:54
KelvinGardinerCan bugs in LP be marked as "good for new people" as gnome do on their tracker.20:54
DougieRichardsonsaketh: but if you wanted to know where to start out, new to the process then you could click say low hanging fruit and get a list of bugs that are relatively easy20:54
sakethoh yeah20:54
DougieRichardsonkelvingardiner: that's what we're proposing20:55
sakethi get that...20:55
DougieRichardsonwe've always used the term "low hanging fruit"20:55
KelvinGardinerok20:55
cody-somervilleOkay, its been about an hour now. I'd like to suggest we start wrapping up and make plans for another meeting since there is lots to still discuss.20:55
sakethok20:55
sakethso... how bout next sunday20:56
technomenschnext sunday is mothers day in the us20:56
sakethoh20:56
sakethi dont really pay attention to holidays20:56
DougieRichardsonnext weekend is not good for me either - I've other team meetings20:56
saketheven if they happen to be where i live...20:56
sakethok...20:56
mdkeit's too soon20:56
sakethhow bout the week after then?20:56
mdkeI'd like to cover at least another issue this evening if people can20:56
DougieRichardsonI'd prefer to push on20:57
technomensch+120:57
sakethwhen do u suggest?20:57
DougieRichardsonI've moved stuff aside for this20:57
mmatisAs have I20:57
technomenschditto20:57
sakethwhen?20:57
technomenschconsidering how long we've been trying to have this meeting....at least 6-8 months, if not longer, I think an hour isn't enough time20:57
sakethok20:57
sakeththenn20:58
DougieRichardsoni think we have a fair proposal for the point in hand anyway - devise a defined set of tags and apply them20:58
sakethi have about 2 hours free after aout 5 hours20:58
mdkeyes20:59
pace_t_zuluDougieRichardson: +120:59
mdkeI think we're agreed on that one, lemme do something for the bot20:59
saketh+120:59
mmatisDougieRichardson: +120:59
DougieRichardsonmdke: may I?20:59
KelvinGardiner+120:59
mdkeDougieRichardson: it's limited to the person who started the meeting20:59
technomensch::zing:::20:59
mdkeDougieRichardson: would you be prepared to have a go at the first draft of bug tags to use20:59
DougieRichardsonmdke: Yes - I'm getting back in my box now ;-)21:00
mdkeDougieRichardson: it's just a limitation of the bot21:00
sakethoh i got an idea21:00
sakethinstead of tas21:00
sakethjust rate each bug on a scale of 1 to 521:00
saketh5 being most difficult21:00
DougieRichardsonsaketh:that's too subjective and all that would happen is people would use 1,3 and 5 IMHO21:01
sakethok...21:01
pace_t_zulusaketh: -121:01
technomenschthere are already priority to the bugs and we are adding tags on top of them21:01
pace_t_zuluDougieRichardson: +121:01
mdke[ACTION] DougieRichardson to draw up list of bug tags to be used for identifying tasks, and to discuss on the list21:01
MootBotACTION received:  DougieRichardson to draw up list of bug tags to be used for identifying tasks, and to discuss on the list21:01
sakethjust wanted to throw out the idea...21:01
mdkeDougieRichardson: is that ok?21:01
DougieRichardsonmdke: yes21:01
mdkegreat21:02
mdkethanks21:02
mdke[TOPIC] Discussion of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization21:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Discussion of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization21:02
mdkeI'd really like to get this item sorted out so that we can clarify the group structure and have a clear picture for new people joining the team21:02
mdkedo people have any specific thoughts on the page?21:02
technomenschdid you want to include the ability for submitting fixes in plain text into this discussion?21:03
technomenschfor the contributors21:03
pace_t_zulumdke: I agree that it is unclear, being one of these "new people"21:03
sakethisnt there a group for students also21:04
mdketechnomensch: ideally I'd like to limit the discussion to the team structure, obviously that point is a good one too but separate21:04
sakethor is that gonna be done away with...21:04
DougieRichardsonHappy with the proposed structure21:04
mmatisThe  "join the Ubuntu Documentation Contributors team on Launchpad" link is broken21:04
sakethok...21:04
DougieRichardsonI assume we're essentially replacing the word student with contributer?21:04
technomensch@dougie: I would hope so21:04
mdkemmatis: it's not created yet - the page is not yet finalised21:04
mdkeDougieRichardson: that's the idea yes21:05
KelvinGardinerI found having different names on LP a bit confusing at first.21:05
technomenschI think if we break it up in this fashion, we should not only make a clear distinction of who is at which level....21:05
technomenschbut also what their specialitiy is21:05
DougieRichardsonOK then it seems concise to me - the contributers is open and the committers/wiki admin is not21:06
pace_t_zuluI have been unable to join the team.21:06
technomenschas in, who to go to for what21:06
DougieRichardsontechnomensch:+121:06
sakethhow would one do about beconing a commiter from a contributer?21:06
sakethtechnomensch: +121:06
DougieRichardsonsaketh:that's the next item21:06
sakethoops21:06
technomenschdougie: thanks21:07
pace_t_zulutechnomensch: +121:07
mdkesaketh: it's explained on the page, I hope - that's the whole point of the page!21:07
mmatistechnomensch: +121:07
mdketechnomensch: could you give an example of what you have in mind? You'd have in mind identifying individuals?21:08
technomenschfor example, earlier we were talking about cody and xubuntu....then there is sommer and the server guide......, etc....21:08
technomenschyes know that is their role as an ubuntu member21:09
technomenschbut not all new doc team members might not know where to find the data21:09
mdkeso, contact people for each particular sub-project, basically?21:09
DougieRichardsonI think that a question directed to the ML will get to the right person21:09
mdkeI agree with DougieRichardson21:09
technomenschmight be a good start, that was one of the things I did when I modified /Teams21:09
mdkethe other potential issue with identifying people in that way on the wiki is that things tend to get out of date quite quickly21:09
DougieRichardsonI thought you meant that if someone was a Wiki Admin then that identifies them, say on IRC as the one to ask about a wiki issue21:10
mdkewe have a lot of wiki pages :)21:10
technomenschdougie: that too21:10
sakethyeah...21:10
technomenschdougie: I was getting there21:10
technomensch:)21:10
mdkeso pointing to the Launchpad teams is probably the most easy to maintain solution21:10
mdkebut I can see the advantage of documenting who is primarily involved in different parts of the project21:10
sakethso... different teams for different levels?21:11
technomenschmdke, can that be maintained on launchpad as well?21:11
mdketechnomensch: I can't immediately think of a way to do it21:11
sakethi don think so...21:11
mdketechnomensch: also, I'd personally like to encourage people to mail the list21:11
mdkebecause that way, if sommer doesn't happen to be around for a server guide issue, someone else can answer21:11
DougieRichardsongiven the lack of a maintainable LP solution and the transience of the wiki, I vote to stay with the ML for this aspect of identifying21:12
technomenschvalid points21:12
sommerjust an fyi there are other server team members on the doc list as well21:12
mdkesommer: sure thing21:12
technomenschsorry sommer, it was just an example21:12
technomenschwe do need to give the other members the credit they deserve though21:13
mdkesommer: but you've done the most awesome work with the serverguide recently :)21:13
technomensch::applause:::21:13
sommerthanks :)21:13
mdkeok, does anyone have any other comments on the page?21:13
sakethclap clap clap21:13
sakethnot really21:13
saketh@mdke21:14
DougieRichardsonno21:14
sakethnot sommer21:14
mdke[AGREED] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization approved, subject to any further comments on the mailing list21:14
MootBotAGREED received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization approved, subject to any further comments on the mailing list21:14
mdke[ACTION] mdke to implement the page and integrate it with our other wiki docs21:14
MootBotACTION received:  mdke to implement the page and integrate it with our other wiki docs21:14
mdkeI think we can take the next items quickly, because they are so obviously a good idea and have already more or less been approved on the mailing list21:15
technomenschmdke: I just realized I never finished modifying/cleaning up the wiki formatting/coding pages21:15
mdke[TOPIC] Discuss the creation of a playbook for new contributers21:15
MootBotNew Topic:  Discuss the creation of a playbook for new contributers21:15
DougieRichardsonmdke: we've skipped one21:16
technomenschmdke, I was working on that originally for wiki contributors21:16
mdkeDougieRichardson: don't think so?21:16
DougieRichardsonmdke: entry requirements for contributers21:16
mdkeDougieRichardson: haven't we just done that? It was part of the Organization page, and is a single item on the agenda21:16
mdkeDougieRichardson: if you have any comments on that part of the page, go ahead - sorry, I thought you hadn't21:17
DougieRichardsonwe've covered the new structure but not defined the entry requirement21:17
mdkethat was why I asked if anyone had any other comments on the page21:17
DougieRichardsonmdke: sorry, I thought they were seperate entrys for some reason21:17
mdkefeel free to raise anything now, we'll come back to the next topic shortly21:17
sakethhow to become a commiter?21:18
sakethfor documentation21:18
mdkesaketh: have a read of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization21:18
DougieRichardsonI think that we agree significant is wooly and rightly so but we could alleviate members concers by deciding a format for who decides.21:18
sakethok21:18
sakethi read21:18
DougieRichardsonI favour a vote from existing contributers or a panel from that area.21:18
sakethmhm21:19
sakethi gotta go now...21:19
technomenschI don't remember if I ever sent this to the mailing list, but I think if someone is applying to be a contributer....once they are ready....their first few additions should be supervised21:19
sakethbb21:19
mdkeI'd like to be inclusive about this21:19
mdkeI think everyone in the team should have the right to comment on someone's application21:19
DougieRichardsonmdke: you mean everyone in the commit group or everyone?21:19
mdkeDougieRichardson: everyone who has an opinion - it will normally be the people who have reviewed the applicant's work, but I wouldn't want to exclude comments21:20
technomenschhow do you envision the application process?21:20
mdkeas is usual in the Ubuntu community, people who have worked more closely with the applicant and are more familiar with our work generally will carry greater weight in terms of their opinion21:21
mdkethe usual meritocracy spiel21:21
mdketechnomensch: see the "Joining a team" section on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization21:21
DougieRichardsonmdke: I'm happy with that but we need to document it clearly21:21
* mdke nods21:21
DougieRichardsonso we are open21:21
mdkeDougieRichardson: the problem with a vote is that it sometimes implies counting numbers21:21
pace_t_zuluI'd like to join a team... I am happy to be a Contributor until I have earned the right to be a Commiter21:21
technomenschmdke: we can use a wiki page to track votes?21:22
mdkeDougieRichardson: the scheme I envisaged would be more than a concern that gets raised can be discussed by everyone, and the team then reaches a consensus on that which reflects the general meritocracy principle of the community21:22
mdkeDougieRichardson: I'm pretty sure we'll generally agree very quickly :)21:22
mdkeat least about this sort of thing21:22
technomenschmdke gets +15 on verbal21:23
DougieRichardsonmdke: true but we understand the system21:23
DougieRichardsonwe need to make this clear to new members so as not to dishearten them21:23
pace_t_zulumdke, DougieRichardson: is the Contributor team going to exist soon?21:23
mdkeDougieRichardson: let me make more of an effort to explain it on the page21:23
mdkepace_t_zulu: yes21:23
pace_t_zulumdke: thank you21:23
mdkepace_t_zulu: we'll rename the -students team21:23
DougieRichardsonmdke: I'm happy with that21:23
mdkeDougieRichardson: and then we can review afterwards, and raise any further issues on the ML21:24
pace_t_zulumdke: so if i go ahead and join the -students team I will be a Contributor when the rename is executed?21:24
mdkepace_t_zulu: right21:24
DougieRichardsonmdke: I agree21:24
pace_t_zulumdke: roger... thanks... on it21:24
mdke[ACTION] mdke to revise https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization to explain better the process of consensus for joining a team. Once done, the page to be discussed on the list21:24
MootBotACTION received:  mdke to revise https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization to explain better the process of consensus for joining a team. Once done, the page to be discussed on the list21:24
mdkeDougieRichardson: cool21:24
DougieRichardsonright back to before I interrupted, lol21:25
mdkeI'm glad you did21:25
mdkethat was a good point21:25
mdke[TOPIC] Discuss the creation of a playbook for new contributers21:25
MootBotNew Topic:  Discuss the creation of a playbook for new contributers21:25
mdkeDougieRichardson raised this idea, and has already produced a playbook which has been very successful IMO21:26
pace_t_zului have successfully joined ubuntu-doc-students21:26
mdkepace_t_zulu: welcome :)21:26
pace_t_zulumdke: thank you :)21:26
mdkeI think the list is agreed that this is a good idea and we should push it forward21:26
DougieRichardsonmdke: thanks!21:26
mdkeDougieRichardson: what other playbooks did you have in mind? One for the wiki, right?21:26
technomenschmdke: I was halfway through getting the playbook finished for wiki work...I just need to finish the formatting pages I was working on21:26
DougieRichardsonmdke: I have one for bazaar vut that came out of desktop training last cycle21:27
mdketechnomensch: ah, rock21:27
technomenschremember when I was reworking the pages21:27
DougieRichardsonmdke: I think wiki is best in someone elses hands21:27
technomenschI just kinda got sidetracked21:27
technomenschdougie: you mean other than me?21:27
mdketechnomensch: are you prepared to take responsibility for the first draft wiki playbook?21:27
technomenschyes21:28
mdkeawesome21:28
DougieRichardsonI'd also quite like to do one for writing new articles too21:28
mmatissorry all, laptop battery died.21:28
technomenschdougie and mdke, technically the playbook already exists based on the previous work21:28
mdke[ACTION] technomensch to produce a draft playbook for the wiki, following a similar format to the existing one, to be discussed on the list once done21:28
MootBotACTION received:  technomensch to produce a draft playbook for the wiki, following a similar format to the existing one, to be discussed on the list once done21:28
mdketechnomensch: you have a pdf?21:29
technomenschI can make one21:29
technomenschwhen would you like it done by?21:29
mdketechnomensch: ideally it would be great if you could work using the same format as DougieRichardson's first one (odt) and then we can publish it in the same way21:29
mdketechnomensch: no deadlines :)21:29
DougieRichardsonBTW the ODF is still available to maintain consistancy21:29
mdkeodf, sorry21:29
technomenschwhere is dougie's playbook so I can use it as a reference?21:30
mdkegrabbing link now21:30
mdkeactually, I don't see it on https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc21:30
DougieRichardsonhttps://code.edge.launchpad.net/~dougierichardson/+junk/ubuntu-doc-playbook21:30
mdkeDougieRichardson: can you shoot the link over to ... thanks :)21:30
DougieRichardsonHaven't migrated it yet21:31
mdkewe can create a single branch to maintain these, maybe21:31
technomenschbookmarked21:31
pace_t_zulu[LINK] https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~dougierichardson/+junk/ubuntu-doc-playbook21:31
MootBotLINK received:  https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~dougierichardson/+junk/ubuntu-doc-playbook21:31
mdkeDougieRichardson: how does bzr work for odf files?21:31
mdkenot bad?21:31
DougieRichardsonSame as everything else really - it'll version control anything21:31
DougieRichardsonI even use it to maintain the teams logo21:32
mdkecool21:32
mdke[AGREED] playbooks are a good idea and should be promoted21:32
MootBotAGREED received:  playbooks are a good idea and should be promoted21:32
mdkeany other comments for the topic?21:32
DougieRichardsonno, I'm happy - it seems well received so far21:33
mdke[TOPIC] #21:33
mdke#21:33
mdkePromote regular hug days. Much as QA does, we could promote regular sessions where one section of documentation could be worked on in a single day. --DougieRichardson21:33
MootBotNew Topic:  #21:33
mdkedamn21:33
mdke[TOPIC] Promote regular hug days21:33
MootBotNew Topic:  Promote regular hug days21:33
mdkeagain this is an idea that has been introduced on the list21:34
mdkeDougieRichardson: how would you envisage it working? what sort of frequency?21:34
DougieRichardsonWell, monthly seems sensible - atleast initially until we have a good feel for numbers21:34
DougieRichardsonI'd like some feedback from those who specialise with the wiki because its most suited to the idea21:35
mdkeI think it's a great idea in principle. It will probably need someone to maintain it and keep setting up the days, that could be an individual or a small group of people21:35
mdkeyou know, for choosing the days, choosing the subject matter, etc21:36
mdkepublicising it21:36
DougieRichardsonI see it a lot like team reports in a way - we can pool ideas and pick them21:36
DougieRichardsonPromotion is important - I've found the Planet very useful for OpenWeek21:37
KelvinGardinerThe days could be set as first Monday in the month, for example. So its easy to remember.21:37
DougieRichardsonI've had three or four posts this week and and average pageview of 500 per day21:37
DougieRichardsonKelvinGardiner:+121:37
technomenschbut dougie, not everyone can post to the planet21:37
mdketechnomensch: plenty in the team can21:38
DougieRichardsonThat's true so its just one avenue21:38
mdkewe also have the fridge and such21:38
technomenschsubmissions to the various blogging sites21:38
DougieRichardsonLet's not forget the forums either21:39
technomenschgetting it pushed on podcasts21:39
mdkeyep, forums and mailing lists21:39
popey\o/ podcasts :)21:39
technomenschtwit, buzz out loud, diggnation, techzilla21:39
DougieRichardsonpopey could help with that21:39
DougieRichardsondamn that was timed popey21:39
popeydrop us a mail with anything you want pimping podcast@ubuntu-uk.org21:39
mdkehe must have these things hilighted21:39
popey(podcast on hilight)21:39
DougieRichardsonidenti.ca is popular with developers at the moment21:39
KelvinGardinerDoes the fridge get pushed to ubuntu planet?21:39
DougieRichardsonKelvinGardiner: yes21:40
mdkeKelvinGardiner: yes21:40
mdke[IDEA] DougieRichardson to draft up a wikipage setting out a strategy plan for doc hug days21:40
MootBotIDEA received:  DougieRichardson to draft up a wikipage setting out a strategy plan for doc hug days21:40
technomenschas much as I hate it, and won't use it, is there a ubuntu twitter feed?21:40
mdkethink so21:40
pace_t_zulutechnomensch: i'm sure it wouldn't be hard to make a twitter feed if there isn't already one21:40
technomenschperhaps something similar to an offshoot of the planet21:41
DougieRichardsondigg _shudder_21:41
KelvinGardinertechnomensch:  there is an identi.ca ubuntu group. A lot of open week stuff was posted to it.21:42
DougieRichardsonubuntu members have got access to that group21:42
DougieRichardsonalong with an LWN subscription \0/21:43
DougieRichardsonwe need to clean up the wiki to do page though21:43
DougieRichardsonI spoke to connor about this - there are two suggested areas needing work21:43
technomensch@dougie: still an ongoing project21:43
DougieRichardsontechnomensch: can you clarify something21:43
mdkeyes, the wiki task page is a bit of a mess at the moment21:44
DougieRichardsontechnomensch: brb21:44
technomenschI was actually going to ask whatever happened to my push to get a hardware database up and running, and get those docs out of the wiki21:44
technomenschI know it's off topic, but goes back ot the cleaning up of the wiki21:44
DougieRichardsonThat's an ideal candidate for a hug day21:44
technomenschthe hardware and drivers are a disaster21:45
DougieRichardsontechnomensch: can you clarify the convert categories to tags entry on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks21:45
mdkeI can clarify that21:45
technomenschI didn't make that one21:45
mdkethe link is wrong21:45
DougieRichardsonah that makes sense21:45
technomenschfair enough....21:46
mdkeif only I could find the right one21:46
technomensch:)21:46
DougieRichardsonBecause this is another candidate for a hug day21:46
mdkeI posted it in the open week talk, now where is it21:46
technomenschmatt, if you could tell me which you're looking for, I could check my logs or bookmarks21:46
mdkeaha, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo/Tags21:47
mdkeI'll move that page over to the team wiki, it got missed out when we moved a bunch of wiki pages21:47
DougieRichardsonwould you link it from the tasks page too?21:47
mdkeyes, definitely21:48
mdkethe list of tasks for the wiki needs a bit of love21:48
mdkeit's very out of date21:48
technomensch::nods::21:48
DougieRichardsonThat's really the rationale behind hug days where we can define a problem and get more hands on the pump21:48
* mdke nods21:49
technomenschwell dougie, the hardware is not just docsteam hands on deck....21:49
technomenschthat's a multi-team project21:49
technomenschesp with WA21:49
technomenschI mean QA21:49
DougieRichardsonthen it mightn't be suitable21:49
mdkeso DougieRichardson, are you willing to draft a wiki page to run through what you'd see as the process for establishing hug days, all the details, and how we should publicise it, and then raise on the list?21:49
DougieRichardsonmdke: yes sure21:49
mdkeI think that's a good next step21:49
technomenschnot for hug day, but....I dunno something21:50
DougieRichardsonyes - don't want to go off half cocked on this21:50
mdke[AGREED] documentation hug days are a good idea21:50
MootBotAGREED received:  documentation hug days are a good idea21:50
mdke[ACTION] DougieRichardson to draft a wiki page to run through what you'd see as the process for establishing hug days, all the details, and how we should publicise it, and then raise on the list21:50
MootBotACTION received:  DougieRichardson to draft a wiki page to run through what you'd see as the process for establishing hug days, all the details, and how we should publicise it, and then raise on the list21:50
technomenschif we're done with the hug day, before we proceed to the next topic, can we go into the hardware documentation discussion?21:51
mdketechnomensch: what's the issue?21:51
technomenschwell, it is a complete and utter mess.  out of date driver links, instructions for older releases21:51
technomenschI had been trying21:51
technomenschto get all of that out of the wiki and into a database with QA21:52
DougieRichardsonlinky?21:52
technomenschbut someone dropped the ball....looking for the mailing list thread, please hold.....21:52
pace_t_zulumdke: back to an old topic real quick... who has the authority to change ubuntu-doc-students to ubuntu-doc-contributors ?21:53
pace_t_zulumdke: can we have an ACTION on that before this meeting is adjurned ?? apologies for the caps - MootBot21:54
technomenschstarted with this thread21:54
technomenschhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2008-September/011587.html21:54
mdkepace_t_zulu: it's included in one of the action items already recorded21:55
technomenschhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2008-October/011802.html21:55
technomenschhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2008-October/011997.html21:55
mdkemy thought is that we really need a hardware database for this type on information, it's not suited to a wiki21:55
pace_t_zulumdke: thank you :)21:55
DougieRichardsonI actually think this is a candidate for a seperate sub site21:55
mdkeI know there is a team working on the "System Testing" tool that has been quite active this release cycle21:56
technomenschmdke: that was the whole disscussion21:56
mdkeI suggest that it be followed up with them21:56
technomenschis there anyone who communicates with that team?21:56
mdketechnomensch: not really21:57
technomenschif I knew who to contact, I'd be happy to follow up...this has been a pet project of mine for a while that nothing has happened21:57
mdkeyeah, I think i can get the details, hang on21:57
DougieRichardsonhttps://edge.launchpad.net/checkbox21:57
DougieRichardsonIsn't it?21:57
mdkeright21:58
mdkesee also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/Checkbox21:58
mdkeMarc Tardiff is down as the package creator in Ubuntu21:58
DougieRichardsonlooks like the QA team drive it21:58
mdkeright21:59
mdketechnomensch: does that give you enough to go on?21:59
technomenschI think so.  I'll see what I can find out and try to get back to the mailling list later this week21:59
technomenschthank you21:59
mdkelemme record this for the log quickly21:59
mdke[TOPIC] Rationalisation of wiki hardware documentation - currently in a mess22:00
MootBotNew Topic:  Rationalisation of wiki hardware documentation - currently in a mess22:00
technomenschin addition to contacting them, if I write up a post, would one of you be willing to post it to the planet?22:00
mdke[ACTION] technomensch to contact QA team / authors of Checkbox to find out whether their hardware information can be produced in a simple way for users to review22:00
MootBotACTION received:  technomensch to contact QA team / authors of Checkbox to find out whether their hardware information can be produced in a simple way for users to review22:00
DougieRichardsontechnomensch: sure22:01
technomenschthanks22:01
mdke[LINK] https://edge.launchpad.net/checkbox22:01
MootBotLINK received:  https://edge.launchpad.net/checkbox22:01
mdkeright, how are people doing?22:01
mdkeI'm flagging a bit, and have an early flight tomorrow am22:01
technomenschI'm adding my stuff ot "my tasks" now22:02
DougieRichardsonok I'm happy to break off22:02
DougieRichardsonwe've covered a lot and after our chat last night with the learning team I think we're on track with the last item22:02
mdkelet's arrange a time to reconvene for the next meeting; I think regular meetings are going to be very important for the team so would suggest once a month22:02
DougieRichardson+122:02
mdkeDougieRichardson: nods22:02
technomensch+122:02
sommer+122:03
mmatis+122:03
mdke[ACTION] mdke to post meeting logs, amend agenda and follow up on the mailing list to schedule the next meeting22:03
KelvinGardiner+122:03
MootBotACTION received:  mdke to post meeting logs, amend agenda and follow up on the mailing list to schedule the next meeting22:03
pace_t_zulu+122:03
pace_t_zulusorry for the delay there... phone22:03
mdkeok, let's conclude the meeting and retire to #ubuntu-doc :)22:03
mdke#endmeeting22:03
MootBotMeeting finished at 16:03.22:03
mdkethanks very much everyone for attending22:04
DougieRichardsonwe should do it more often ;-)22:04
pace_t_zulumdke: thanks for leading a well organized meeting22:04
mdkeDougieRichardson: definitely22:04
mdkepace_t_zulu: no worries :)22:05
technomenschgreat jobn22:05
technomenschabout time.....and very productive22:05
DougieRichardsonmy wife thinks I'm being anti-social so I'll see everyone later22:06
mmatisbye all...dinner time!22:06
sommerlater on22:06
KelvinGardinerbye all22:06
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