/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/05/04/#ubuntu-desktop.txt

Dannnyhey guys02:28
Dannnyanybody here?02:28
* ajmitch thinks he may have been in the wrong place if he was seeking quick answers or support02:42
calcbryce_: is alberto alberto milone?03:33
nhandlercalc: Alberto Milone is tseliot on IRC03:35
calcok03:35
brycecalc: yes03:59
pittiGood morning06:54
mpontillomornin'! (well, will be in an hour or so for me.)06:56
mpontillohey, so I took a stab at a TODO item: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/epiphany-browser/+bug/332253 ... attached a script that I think will fix the problem if packaged, but I'm not sure what to do next (or if I should have even changed the "assigned to" field)06:57
ubottuLaunchpad bug 332253 in epiphany-browser "Epiphany doesn't mention Ubuntu in user agent string" [Wishlist,In progress]06:57
mpontillothanks ubottu ;)06:57
didrocksmorning mpontillo pitti07:24
pittihey didrocks07:25
didrockspitti: I was wondering about a patch in gnome-volume-manager07:28
didrocksdebian/gnome-volume-manager.links: Add gnome-volume-manager-gthumb.sh symlink to /usr/share/gnome-volume-manager/, where it had been shipped in old Ubuntu releases. Since this cannot be changed on system upgrades, this needs to be kept indefinitely.07:28
didrockswhy providing still this symlink?07:29
pittididrocks: it's pretty obsolete now, since g-v-m isn't being used for handling photos etc. any more07:29
pittiand we don't use it at all07:29
didrocksyes, I know. Just want to understand the remark :)07:29
pittididrocks: the problem was that the path got stored in the user's gconf db07:29
pittiwhich we can't change on upgrades07:30
didrockspitti: we can't use g2conf-tools to update it?07:30
didrocksin some kind of postinst script?07:30
didrocksgconf2-tools*07:30
pittino, we mustn't touch /home in maintainer scripts07:30
didrockspitti: ok, thanks. I understand now :)07:31
mpontillomornin' didrocks. really morning now ;)08:00
=== BugMaN1 is now known as BugMaN
didrockshey seb128. We have to get ready for GNOME 2.27.1, right? :)09:10
pittiseb128: bonjour! had a good weekend?09:10
seb128didrocks: you can, I'm still catching up on jaunty bugs and doing merges for my part today09:10
seb128pitti: hello, excellent thanks! you?09:11
didrocksseb128: great, I will follow them :)09:11
seb128didrocks: I see no reason to hurry in broken versions so early in the cycle, almost nobody is running karmic yet anyway09:11
didrocksok seb128, I will not hurry too, so :)09:11
pittiseb128: it was great; we did the traditional camping/hiking on May 1, and I helped my parents in the garden (oh, my back!), and we did a barbecue party09:11
seb128didrocks: I prefer to get merges sorted first and bugs on shape and start with .2 or .3 for the updates09:11
pittikarmic!09:11
pittibut I agree that merges are first prio now09:12
seb128pitti: I did some gardening too ;-)09:12
didrocksseb128: I still have few merges to do, so, ok. I put some priority on this09:12
seb128didrocks: gnome-python-extras for example? ;-) debian fixed your build issue09:12
* pitti also waits for NEW and buildds to catch up, so that he can upload the new gnome devkit crack09:12
didrocksseb128: well... I will do gnome-python-extras :p09:12
seb128;-)09:12
seb128pitti: how busy are buildds still?09:13
pittivery09:13
pittihttps://launchpad.net/builders/09:13
pittiexcept lpia09:13
didrocksthoses queues are quite crazy :)09:16
seb128didrocks: yeah, some thousand packages synced from debian09:24
robert_ancellseb128: pitti:  I have an email regarding how to make progress in the compiz bugflood.  What mailing list do you guys recommend I send it to for feedback?  How wide is the distribution of the desktop mailing list?10:02
pittirobert_ancell: I'd post to u-devel@, it's of general interest10:02
seb128robert_ancell: is that a call for bug triagers?10:03
seb128robert_ancell: you might want to Cc ubuntu-bugsquad10:03
seb128robert_ancell: otherwise ubuntu-devel sounds good10:03
robert_ancellseb128: pitti: It's more of taking a divide and conquer approach to compiz and being ruthless to maximise our effort.  I'll email both of you and see what you think10:04
seb128ok10:07
seb128I think that first we should autoclose all crash bugs which didn't get any activity since hardy or something10:07
seb128bugsquad might have code ready for that sort of things10:07
seb128bryce_ also has quite some scripts to add stock replies, needinfo bugs, etc10:08
seb128don't spend hours on every bug trying to understand it in any case10:08
robert_ancellseb128: that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid :)10:08
seb128success in bug triage is to triage quickly issues which don't seem worth stopping10:08
pittiright, it should suffice to go through and decide which are the really bad ones which affect many people10:08
seb128ie set those low importance and switch to the next one10:08
seb128then you can mostly ignore =< low10:09
robert_ancellI think we have to reduce the number of bugs though - just triaging them will still leave too many bugs visible that no-one will ever get back to looking at.  They may as well be closed or merged10:09
asacpitti: hmm. commented on xmlrpc-c MIR ... its not the same source as the cmake - e.g. it adds a new set of libs for xmlrpc server stuff10:10
seb128right10:11
seb128that's why I suggest agressive closing of bugs which have not changed since hardy10:11
seb128and perhaps stock reply for bugs which seem rather video driver issues10:11
asacpitti: do we care and open a bug for splitting up the binary packages?10:11
seb128and perhaps reply for "we don't have the manpower to work on that, please open an upstream bug"10:11
pittiasac: it's already split, only the base packages are in main, rest is universe10:12
asacpitti: hmm. let me check10:12
robert_ancellseb128: but that's passing the problem on.  I think there's value in acknowledging that there are a lot of issues like this instead of closing them which sends the message "not our problem"10:12
asacpitti: i thought the server libs are in the base package10:12
pittirobert_ancell: they can stay open10:13
asacpitti: yeah so the server libs and the abyss libs are in the base package10:13
pittirobert_ancell: our goal can't be to have zero bugs on the package, I think10:13
asaclibxmlrpc-c310:13
asacthat package10:13
pittiasac: that's in universe10:14
pittiwe just have the -c3-core package in main10:14
seb128hello rodrigo_10:14
rodrigo_hi :)10:14
robert_ancellpitti: But then you can't see the forest for the trees.  There needs to be a balance between having enough bugs that fixing them is accessible (ideally by third parties) but not loosing all the information that hundreds of bugs gives10:15
asacpitti: hmm. so someone did the split up. nice. good10:15
pittirobert_ancell: indeed, but then there's also priorities and assignees10:15
pittia bug which is triaged/low/unassigned is basically "shelve"10:15
pittiand a "high/triaged/assigned" bugs is on somebody's work list10:15
asacpitti: great. so riddell did the split after i talked to him on friday10:16
pittiright, he mentioned it in the MIR10:16
asacnevermind then10:17
pittiasac: the new package isn't published yet, I just NEWed it10:17
robert_ancellpitti: so, to follow that strategy on compiz.  If we close the bugs that are "too hard" (e.g. video drivers) and triage everything else (probably to low priority) we will still have 400 bugs with vague descriptions that will just continue to grow.  Anyone not familiar with compiz will not want to put any effort into it - it will just look too hard10:17
pittirobert_ancell: video driver bugs should be reassigned, not closed10:18
pittirobert_ancell: using priorities more could help there (and being really conservative about "high")10:18
mnemorobert_ancell: maybe you can write a spider that checks all the compiz bugs for attached xorg.log that has stacks in them and then bulk assign those to the appropriate video driver...10:19
pittibryce has such scripts like those10:20
robert_ancellseb128, pitti: ok, I'll talk to bryce about scripts.  Do10:22
mnemoasking people to re-test with compiz off is probably also a good thing that could transfer some bugs to xorg... not that xorg has too few bugs but :) :)10:22
seb128robert_ancell: "description not good enough to understand the bug = needinfo + low priority if that doesn't seem a high importance issue"10:22
seb128and get some autoclosing going on for all needinfo which didn't get updated for 6 weeks or something10:23
seb128then you can get a bookmark listing only open bugs "ie confirmed triaged"10:23
seb128and sorted by importance10:23
seb128that should give you a reasonable list10:24
seb128that give the "NEW" bugs which are too triage10:24
seb128and somebody need to go over the needinfo every now and then to close or reopen according to the new comments10:25
robert_ancellI just feel it might be hiding the issues rather than than us getting valuable information on how to improve the stability of compiz (and so reduce the number of incoming bugs)10:25
seb128I've cleaned a bit pidgin this way10:25
robert_ancellseb128: ok, will look at pidgin for ideas10:25
seb128half of "old bugs" got submitter replying that jaunty was fixing the issue for them10:26
seb128there is not too much to look at, I've been going through bugs not touched recently asking to try on jaunty10:26
seb128I got quite a lot of "that has been fixed in recent versions"10:26
robert_ancellseb128: particularly in the case of compiz the bugs are not reproducable anyway - they're just random crashes10:26
seb128I tend to close one time crashers with no recent duplicates10:27
seb128we can still reopen if somebody else runs into the issue again10:27
seb128we need to do some statistical work anyway10:27
seb128ie we could ignore all bugs which didn't get at least confirmed by 3 users10:27
seb128we can't spend hours on every issue which one user got once10:28
seb128we have to go for things annoying a lot of users or being important issues10:28
robert_ancelland in the case of compiz we have hundreds of reports, and almost none of them having reproducable conditions or likely to be reproduced10:29
robert_ancellanyway, I have to go.  Thanks for the feedback10:29
seb128you're welcome10:29
seb128just set those low importance10:30
seb128and don't bother looking to low bugs10:30
seb128and get them raised if there is several duplicates10:30
seb128we can continue chatting about that tomorrow10:30
robert_ancellseb128: yup,  please email me some Karmic work/pointers for tomorrow as I'm not too sure what to do / what others are currently doing10:31
seb128robert_ancell: ok will do10:32
crevetteHello11:12
seb128lut crevette11:14
crevettesalut seb12811:14
pittiseb128: gconf merge uploaded; so you'll take rarian in exchange?11:38
seb128pitti: yes11:39
pittisplendid; 6 merges to go then..11:39
=== dpm_ is now known as dpm
=== eeejay is now known as eeejay_givingup
seb128mvo: any reason you let bug #318268 on avahi?13:26
ubottuLaunchpad bug 318268 in avahi "package libavahi-glib1 0.6.23-2ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess dpkg-deb --control returned error exit status 2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/31826813:26
seb128mvo: that doesn't seem to be an avahi issue ...13:26
mvoseb128: let me have a look13:28
seb128mvo: thanks13:28
mvono reason13:28
mvoI reassigned to dpkg for now, this short read on buffer copy message needs some love13:29
seb128mvo: ok thanks13:29
exoeoeoeoehttp://3x3cut10n3r.mybrute.com/ <-- have fun & good luck13:52
mnemodid anyone else get dependency problems / broken package for compiz when upgrading to karmic? I need working compiz to test a -ati patch for karmic13:53
mnemothis is the concrete problem I have on karmic --> http://pastebin.com/m4d9ee54a13:54
asacmnemo: well. while auto synchs are on its easy< to have dependency problems temporarily14:00
mnemoasac: the reason i want this patch into karmic is because I need some bake time there so I can request a SRU for jaunty14:01
mnemoasac: how long will the auto syncers be on?14:01
asacmnemo: till debian import freeze14:02
asacmnemo: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicReleaseSchedule14:02
mnemoaah thats quite long14:03
asacmnemo: well. a) i dont know if your problem is something else ;) ... b) if its a temporary issue because of lots of updates going on, you might be able to upgrade in a few hours a few days or so14:03
asacmnemo: how do you upgrade?14:03
mnemoasac: i had this problem for two days now.. I upgraded by "sed -i s/jaunty/karmic/ sources.list"14:04
asacmnemo: and then?14:04
asacwhat command are you using?14:04
mnemosudo apt-get update followed by "sudo aptitude dist-upgrade"14:04
asactry apt-get dist-upgrade14:04
asacaptitude can be lame ;)14:05
mnemook14:05
asacbut look carefully if things get removed you dont want go away ;)14:05
mnemoare you on karmic with working compiz btw? if so, then I might have some config issue related to my upgrade14:06
asaci havent upgraded yet. want to do some SRU stuff first14:06
mnemok14:06
mnemoasac: so, is it possible to SRU without adding patch to karmic first?14:07
mnemomy patch causes frequent -ati crashes, its merged upstream and fix has been confirmed by a handful of people14:07
asacwell. this early in cycle making the SRU and uploading to karmic without using karmic makes sense14:08
mnemoaah ok14:09
asacbaking in karmic is not really useful because a) its not really stable and b) not many use karmic anyway14:09
mnemoright14:09
asacmnemo: anyway, its important that the same fix goes to karmic14:09
asacwe want to prevent that there are regressions because the patch was forgotten to add there14:09
mnemoits already merged to upstream mesa so it will go in there for sure14:10
asacmnemo: well. unless its things like gnome which release time based, you cannot be sure that the next upstream will be ready or in karmic imo14:11
asacif bryce said he will do that then just -proposed should be ok14:11
asacbut talk to him i would say14:11
asache should be responsible to help you get this patch in ... or tjaalton14:11
mnemoyea im just waiting for bryce to wake up basically :)14:12
asachehe14:12
seb128hello rickspencer314:12
rickspencer3hey seb12814:12
asacmnemo: so i cant speak for bryce, but i would think that you shouldnt be required to upgrade to karmic at this point ;)14:12
pittihey rickspencer3, good morning14:13
asachi rickspencer314:13
rickspencer3good afternoon pitti, asac14:13
rickspencer3how was the (long) weekend?14:13
asacprecious14:13
pittiawesome14:13
asaceven the weather was superb friday and sat14:13
asacwhich is kind of a lottery thing here ;)14:14
seb128excellent there too14:14
seb128and next weekend is 3 days again ;-)14:14
rickspencer3oh?14:14
asactypical french ;)14:14
rickspencer3sweet14:14
rickspencer3seb128: Friday or Monday off?14:14
seb128friday14:15
seb128it's the end of second war day14:15
rickspencer3mmm14:15
seb128rickspencer3: I will not be there for our weekly call and the meeting tomorrow btw14:16
seb128rickspencer3: travelling to london to join the dxteam sprint14:16
rickspencer3seb128: ok14:16
rickspencer3ok14:16
seb128ok, so I've a todolist for the team contributors, what are the preferences to track those? wiki, bugs, txt list stored in some bzr?14:42
=== rickspencer3 is now known as rickspencer3-afk
ktenneyhowdy, since 8.10->9.04, gdm hangs, /var/log/auth fills with pam_nogin(gdm:auth): cannot determine username14:52
ktenneysuggestions?14:52
mnemoktenney: can you boot the 9.04 live CD?14:53
ktenneyhaven't tried, don't have one. Should14:55
ktenneyI make one and get back?14:55
mnemowell14:55
mnemo,try that, and if its boots... also try logging out from the live CD14:55
mnemoif you log out, then you should see a gdm screen and you should be automatically logged in again14:56
mnemoas user "ubuntu"14:56
mnemoif gdm hangs on the live CD please open a bug using the terminal command "ubuntu-bug gdm"14:56
mnemoand describe what you said about the with logs etc14:56
ktenneymnemo: I'll be back, thanks14:57
=== rickspencer3-afk is now known as rickspencer3
mpontillomorning all15:27
pittirickspencer3: FYI, I updated my specs: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-karmic-symptom-based-bug-reporting and https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-karmic-automagic-python-build-system15:40
rickspencer3pitti: sweet15:40
pittirickspencer3: I didn't see any other which I'm drafting, but please let me know if I forgot one15:40
rickspencer3I have a lot of work to do regarding those :(15:40
pittirickspencer3: I dropped the webdav debug symbols from the apport one; it's a completely separate topic15:41
pittiand probably not feasible time-wise in karmic anyway15:41
rickspencer3ok15:41
pittirickspencer3: lot of work> wrt. scheduling?15:41
pittievery drafter should be responsible for his own summary etc., you shouldn't do those15:41
rickspencer3I have content for many bps that I haven't put in yet15:41
* pitti proposes desktop-karmic-double-daytime, to be able to cover everything15:42
rickspencer3pitti: does automagic build system include an application template15:42
rickspencer3?15:42
pittirickspencer3: it shouldn't, I think15:43
pittiit's outside of the scope of a build system15:43
pittirickspencer3: also, I had a quick discussion with this about Seb15:43
rickspencer3is it?15:43
pittisorry, "about this with seb"15:43
pittirickspencer3: templates should be in a layer on top of this, IMHO15:43
rickspencer3I think we need to create the starting place for developers15:43
rickspencer3right, so a seperate blueprint then15:44
rickspencer3?15:44
pittirickspencer3: that would fit into something like your "quickie"15:44
rickspencer3right, but quickie needs to assume that it will feed into the automagic build system15:44
rickspencer3they go hand in hand15:44
pittirickspencer3: the python build system is on the same level like cdbs or automake15:44
rickspencer3I'll go ahead and create another blueprint for desktop-karmic-project-templates15:44
pittiit doesn't have an interface for dialogs, GTK GUI, or template  creation15:45
rickspencer3pitti: but there needs to a be unified interface for developers15:45
pittirickspencer3: yes, absolutely15:45
pittirickspencer3: and these templates should use that automatic build system15:45
rickspencer3so that they can create the projects and publish them from the same set of commands15:45
pittibut I wouldn't like it to be one big project blob, since the build system has usages outside quicke, and we shouldn't restrict the templating system to python/that build system15:46
rickspencer3ok15:46
rickspencer3so there should be a quickie command that invokes it15:46
rickspencer3but it should be loosely coupled15:46
pittirickspencer3: quickie would write the minimal setup.py15:46
rickspencer3you should also be able to go $quickie publish15:47
pittiand the build system is clever enough to "do what I mean" with just a very small setup.py15:47
rickspencer3and it uses the automagic system15:47
pittiright15:47
rickspencer3ok15:47
rickspencer3then the other blueprint will be useful15:47
pittirickspencer3: so, wrt. the discussion with seb128, he mentioned that something like this was discussed before15:47
pittirickspencer3: the question was, AFAIR, which scope this project should have15:47
pittirickspencer3: "big": build system, .debs, packaging, PPAs15:48
pittirickspencer3: "small": run from source tree, no build system/packages/PPAs15:48
rickspencer3what are your thoughts?15:48
pitti"small" would basically operate on a tarball, with the usual limitations you get from not having packages (no i18n, no package updates, no menu entries, etc.)15:48
seb128the discussion 6 months ago got people agreeing that it should be an easy way to run prototype15:48
rickspencer3I think it should create a deb and/or a ppa15:48
pittiand the last time this was discussed it was the "small" one15:49
seb128ie just one click on a server, download, run15:49
seb128deb and ppa is high barrier to start15:49
rickspencer3preferably a ppa15:49
rickspencer3I think from the uses point of view, the system starts from creating a project from a template15:49
rickspencer3and ends with publishing to a PPA15:49
rickspencer3if ppa is too much for a single release, that's fine15:50
seb128well, when it's good enough to be properly package you can as well get it in ubuntu15:50
seb128what are you trying to solve?15:50
seb128make easy for people to get users trying their code quickly?15:50
rickspencer3seb128: that's a deep question, and I have a deep answer15:50
seb128or having a robust way to distribute code?15:50
pittiwe can provide solutions for both use cases15:50
rickspencer3but essentially, discovering *how* to write an app on Ubuntu is next to impossible15:50
seb128we already have a pretty good way to distribute code ... ;-)15:50
rickspencer3and then how to distribute it is insanely complicated15:50
seb128rickspencer3: and by using ppa you will not make it any simpler15:51
rickspencer3seb128: making a PPA is far from simple15:51
seb128the previous discussion we had turned around the "you should just have to write some python code and be able to distribute it in one click"15:51
seb128right, that's why we were against using deb packaging or ppa when we discussed that15:51
rickspencer3but if we define conventions for how to write your python code, then creating a PPA could be simple15:52
seb128you still have to deal with the packaging15:52
pitticreating a source package from standard-shape python project is doable15:52
rickspencer3convention over configuration15:52
pittiPPA is a little more than one click, because you need to register an LP account etc.15:53
seb128and then users need to add a deb src etc15:53
rickspencer3if you follow the conventions, than a program can be written that creates a PPA for you (given that you have an account)15:53
pittiwe can script that as well, but it's not just one click (because of authentication etc.)15:53
rickspencer3if you deviate from the conventions, that's fine, but you are on your own regarding distribution15:53
seb128the previous discussion was "go on some website, spot something you want try, click to download, double click to try"15:53
pittiseb128: that part should be apt:// URLs, no?15:53
rickspencer3seb128: that's on the end user side15:54
rickspencer3right?15:54
seb128yes15:54
rickspencer3I'm talking about opportunistic developers as users15:54
pittimaking that work involves some changes in apturl itself, automatic fetching of PPA GPG keys, etc.15:54
seb128on the writter side it was "write some python, upload in one click"15:54
rickspencer3right15:54
pittiI think it comes down to what we expect from this15:54
rickspencer3but it's "write some python code following some defined conventions, then upload easily"15:54
pittiif the limitations (no i18n, no menu entries, no automatic updates) are okay, then distributing tarballs and running from source would work15:54
seb128I've the feeling that the while packaging, ppa thing is over-engineered15:55
pittiit's just not how we do things in Ubuntu15:55
seb128well, that's why I asked what you want to do15:55
rickspencer3there are two things that we answer:15:55
seb128make easy to distribute and run prototype15:55
seb128or distribute anything this way?15:55
rickspencer31. How the heck do a write a program that runs on Ubuntu? (quickee-like system is the answer)15:55
mvo_fetching the ppa gpg key sounds a bit scary15:55
rickspencer32. How they heck do I get this to my users?15:55
seb128we opted for the first one saying that you can turn to real packaging when it's ready to be distributed15:55
pittimvo_: really?15:56
asacimo anyone who figures how to package, will figure that there are PPAs ;)15:56
pittimvo_: (we discussed that some days ago already)15:56
rickspencer3hmmm15:56
rickspencer3this sounds like a good topic for a longer discussion15:56
asacrickspencer3: i agree that improving documentation for developers is important15:56
seb128mvo_: do you know if there was some notes from the previous uds discussion?15:56
mvo_pitti: well, its auto-adding repositories to apturl, something we decided against some time ago15:57
asacwe should provide the very best to ensure that developers always end up using ubuntu15:57
seb128rickspencer3: we already had a full room 2 hours discussion about that at previous uds15:57
mvo_seb128: about the download and try thing?15:57
seb128mvo_: yes15:57
pittirickspencer3: so, even in the event that it turns out to be the "small" one-click tarball solution, the distutils thing has been one of my pet peeves for a long time, so I'll probably work on it anyway (in my CFT)15:57
seb128mvo_: the one where desrt wrote the server and you were supposed to write the client15:57
pittimvo_: no, I meant auto-fetching a PPA's gpg key once you added it15:57
mvo_pitti: once you added it manually?15:58
mvo_(or via software-properties?)15:58
seb128rickspencer3: I'm not really convince that we should make easier for people to distribute debs15:58
mvo_seb128: I wrote bits of that :)15:58
pittimvo_: shouldn't matter how it got added; once it's there, we should verify the signature15:58
seb128rickspencer3: we already have tons of those and difficulties to figure what is good or not15:58
mvo_seb128: gritty, I think desrt even came up with something working even15:58
pittimvo_: "auto-fetch and fail on non-match" -> much better than "always complain about missing key"15:58
seb128rickspencer3: I would keep deb as a way to distribute proper software and not random quick hacks15:59
mvo_pitti: right, this discussion. yes, we can add this15:59
seb128otherwise that's the door open to lot of issues15:59
pittiseb128: well, .debs would make sure that you can integrate into the menu, can upgrade and uninstall cleanly15:59
seb128one other issue is that deb packaging will require sudo rights15:59
mvo_pitti: I thought you said "apturl should be able to add PPAs automatically (with keys)"15:59
seb128and it's an open door to any abuse15:59
seb128where the small tarball solution is user land15:59
seb128an no risk for the system16:00
pittimvo_: perhaps, somehow; but I'm not so sure about that16:00
pittiseb128: agreed16:00
seb128re rickspencer316:00
rickspencer3heh16:00
rickspencer3someone disconnected me?16:00
rickspencer3:)16:01
dobeymvo_: btw, where is that apturl update? i haven't seen anything in proposed for it16:01
seb128too many informations? ;-)16:01
rickspencer3I didn't realize I was being that controversial ;)16:01
seb128rickspencer3: to summarize my opinion I think debs should stay a way to distribute officially supported software, we should not encourage people to install random crap this way16:02
seb128rickspencer3: especially that deb are system components, ie the postinst can do anything to the install16:02
rickspencer3seb128: what's wrong with PPA?16:02
rickspencer3it seems to me that the single point of update is of strong value to users16:02
seb128too much informations makes difficult to figure where to find quality softwares16:03
seb128I think we should not mix proper software and quick hacks16:03
seb128it's already difficult enough to find a software in the current list we have16:03
rickspencer3are PPAs "proper" or "quick" hacks?16:03
seb128proper16:03
seb128as said it depends what you want to distribute16:03
mvo_dobey: I uploaded it to -proposed, the masters-of-the-sru queue will have to check and approve16:03
mvo_dobey: uploaded Wed, 29 Apr 200916:04
seb128do you want a quick way for people to distribute new cool stuff they work on16:04
seb128ie prototypes16:04
seb128or do you want it a way to distribute any software?16:04
calcrickspencer3: call sounds fine to me... i hit accept but not sure if it went through16:04
dobeymvo_: how does a mere mortal such as myself test it then?16:04
rickspencer3calc: ack16:04
rickspencer3seb128: if I wrote a pencil ordering app for my office, having a single point to update to would be most useful16:05
seb128I would say the tarball approch is safer (nothing require sudo, nothing running at the system level) and makes easier to try things without risk of polluting your install16:05
rickspencer3but such a ppa shouldn't show up for general usage16:05
mvo_dobey: it should appear in -proposed once approved, I think the current ubuntu-sru team (that does the review/approval) is just pitti and slangasek, not sure how often they review the queue16:05
mvo_dobey: and of course there was a long weekend now16:05
seb128rickspencer3: right, if that's a proper application you recommend to our lambda users16:06
seb128which brings we back at what we want to distribute this way16:06
dobeymvo_: right. i was hoping to test it and verify that it fixes the bug for my use case :)16:06
mvo_dobey: sure, I understand :)16:06
rickspencer3seb128: we need a way for application developers to get their apps to their users16:07
seb128rickspencer3: the tarball thing was meant as a "here is the cool python thing I started on work on a week ago, it's not really useful yet but you can try it quickly and comment by clicking there"16:07
dobeypitti: care to approve the apturl sru then? :)16:07
rickspencer3PPA seem good for this16:07
pittimvo_: I spent 1.5 hours on SRU this morning, unfortunately I didn't completely empty the queue yet16:08
seb128rickspencer3: one thing I don't like about ppa is that deb are system components, ie how do you make sure the postinst don't format the disk or anything?16:08
seb128rickspencer3: who is going to review all those to make sure they don't do anything they should not be doing?16:08
mvo_pitti: thanks, I know that its a hard task, especially so shortly after the release, no blame on you16:08
pittiseb128: well, how do you make sure that the tarball doesn't wipe your home dir?16:08
rickspencer3seb128: right16:09
seb128pitti: we limit the access to some jail?16:09
rickspencer3that will be a problem when the PPAs are generally discoverable16:09
dobeyspeaking of horribly broken deb packages... adobe is on my stab-in-the-face-list :)16:09
pittiseb128: oh, we do?16:09
seb128pitti: well that's a way no?16:09
mvo_if the package runs in the jail and can't access my data, its most likely not very useful :)16:10
pittiseb128: not sure that this is generally effective, since many apps will want to work with your files16:10
mvo_i.e. if I want to test a photo app, then it needs to be able to access my photos16:10
seb128rickspencer3: my opinion is that we already have to much crap listed16:10
seb128ie search for a text editor16:10
rickspencer3seb128: listed where?16:10
rickspencer3in Add/Remove?16:10
seb128see a zillion being listed16:10
seb128yes, or synaptic16:10
rickspencer3do PPAs show up in synaptic?16:10
seb128yes16:11
mvo_after they got added, yes16:11
rickspencer3I thought you had to subscribe to them for them to show up16:11
seb128all the available deb are listed there16:11
seb128right, but if you want to install some random demo from a ppa you will get it auto-added16:11
pittirickspencer3: well, once an user decides to use a PPA, we shouldn't have him do the decision a second time16:11
seb128and then everything in the ppa will show in synaptic16:11
rickspencer3but discovering a PPA is non-trivial16:12
pittiright16:12
rickspencer3it's not like we're exactly pushing htem16:12
dobeywell it is right now16:12
seb128pitti suggests to make it one click away in a transparent way16:12
rickspencer3there's no way to search, etc...16:12
pittiseb128: ah, no16:12
dobeybut i haven't transformed the code in my brain, into actual python scripts yet16:12
pittiseb128: I was talking about auto-fetching GPG keys for PPAs which the user added somehow16:12
seb128pitti: you suggested using an apt: URI though16:13
seb128doesn't that do the add ppa, etc magic for you?16:13
dobeyotherwise installing something from a PPA would be a 2-step process16:13
pittiseb128: yeah, it would be one possibility16:13
pittiseb128: but right now, the author has to give instructions how to install the software anyway16:13
pittiso as an intermediate step, pointing to a PPA would make it more consistent16:13
seb128mvo_: do you have those gritty notes somewhere?16:14
mvo_seb128: let me search, but I think I was not part of the discussion, only later when desrt approached me about it16:15
seb128ok16:15
dobeyalthough adding the stuff to apturl could make it one-step i guess16:15
rickspencer3also, don't forget that we are designing for a user here, and that user is not us16:15
seb128pitti: I guess my concern is that I want deb to stay a proper way to distribute software we can recommend16:15
rickspencer3tools for opportunistic application developers16:15
seb128I would encourage random crack to be "download, run, delete" things16:16
mvo_dobey: we even have code in it for one-step, but it might turn into a huge support/security issue16:16
seb128rather than proper installs16:16
mvo_dobey: (in apturl)16:16
rickspencer3I don't see much difference to the end user in terms of danger and such between getting a deb and getting a PPA16:16
seb128rickspencer3: who is your user target?16:16
seb128rickspencer3: ppa == deb16:16
pittiseb128: this is tricky; for apps which stick around, and for which the user wants updates, PPAs are much better16:17
seb128rickspencer3: the first draft we had was "download one py file and run it", no system install, etc16:17
pittibut they are more sticky, it's nontrivial to get rid of them16:17
rickspencer3seb128: right, except the PPA provides a single update point, you don't have to push new debs out to users16:17
seb128pitti: I feel that first prototype should use the light crappy software system16:17
dobeymvo_: the security issue seems rather bogus to me16:17
rickspencer3this is why so many people build web apps, the single point of updating is hugely valuab;e16:17
seb128pitti: and you can turn to proper ppa use when your application is recommended for lusers16:17
pittiseb128: right; well, we could support both modes16:18
rickspencer3agreed, I think a deb is appropriate sometimes16:18
seb128I totally agree with that16:18
rickspencer3but PPAs are extremely useful for deploying software16:18
pitti"spit out a runme blob" vs. "upload to PPA"16:18
seb128and we distribute all of ubuntu using debs right now16:18
rickspencer3I would think:16:18
rickspencer3quickee ebd16:18
seb128but we control quality what we distribute16:18
rickspencer3I mean quickee deb16:18
rickspencer3or quickee ppa16:18
rickspencer3two different commands16:18
pitti"quickee blob"16:19
rickspencer3seb128: this isn't about what *we* distrubute16:19
pittifor the "./runme" thing?16:19
rickspencer3it's about application developers distributing to their users16:19
seb128rickspencer3: right, same difference, the "we" being a motu or whoever upload to a ppa16:20
rickspencer3seb128: can't anyone upload to a ppa?16:20
seb128right16:20
rickspencer3I'm not a motu, but surely I could distribute my software that way, right?16:20
seb128I'm a bit concerned about distributing random crack as deb format16:21
seb128or rather going further this way16:21
rickspencer3I don't think it's random to the developers or their users16:21
rickspencer3it's just not generally useful16:21
seb128making it too easy will mean you will get thousand of cracks added daily16:21
rickspencer3but how do users discover that crack?16:21
seb128which makes impossible after some time to triage the good information16:21
pittiseb128: well, people will install crack they want no matter in which format :)16:21
rickspencer3they would have to get pointed to the PPA, and add the sources, etc...16:21
pittiif the web site says "do wget | sudo bash", they'll do it16:22
seb128pitti: right, but I would prefer to have "get crack" website than having cracks in synaptic16:22
pittiheh16:22
pittiseb128: I see what you mean16:22
rickspencer3we should categorically *not* mix in PPAs with main/universe, etc...16:22
seb128so you know that synaptic being the official way you can use that to get software you need to get work done16:22
rickspencer3seb128: yes, that is an important distinction16:23
seb128and you can get cracks on "crackland.ubuntu.com"16:23
dobeywell if people stick their crack in PPAs on launchpad, and we use it, we can provide useful feedback to them16:23
rickspencer3or you could go to Add/Remove, and somehow turn on "crack mode"16:23
rickspencer3but every app in their is clearly labelled with a crack pipe16:23
dobeyif they stick random tarballs or whatever on their own sites, then there is much less chance we have of helping them improve the things we actaully use ourselves16:24
seb128still you add crack to the system, ie apt database gets slower16:24
seb128indexes take longer to download16:24
rickspencer3and maybe has a certain number of dead junkies to show rating16:24
seb128I'm already annoyed by the number of packages we have right now16:24
dobeyeh, we install plenty of crack by default :)16:24
seb128I'm not wanting to pay an extra 30 seconds of index download every time I do apt-get update16:24
rickspencer3seb128: We need to encourage Ubuntu as an application development platform, not discourage it16:25
seb128and by installing and removing lot of debs the system gets slower over time16:25
dobeyseb128: then don't add a million PPAs to your system. most users won't really care, because that happens in the background anyway16:25
rickspencer3but I agree that we need to differentiate what is part of Ubuntu, and what is delivered by an independent developer16:25
seb128rickspencer3: there is a difference between writting softwares and distributing those16:25
rickspencer3seb128: not really16:25
rickspencer3if you can't distribute it, there's no point in writing it, and if you can't write it, you can't distribute it16:25
dobeyif the removing makes the system slower, then perhpas apt/dpkg could use some fixes to make it clean up after itself better16:25
seb128for one things people writting software usually want those to work on any distro or system16:26
rickspencer3that's why most platforms include deployment as part of their sdk16:26
seb128and not just ubuntu jaunty or whatever ppa is on16:26
rickspencer3seb128: again, this is an opportunistic application developer16:26
seb128dobey: yes, dpkg could use some work no discussion16:26
rickspencer3if you're writing a pencil ordering app for your office, you really don't care about other distros16:27
seb128rickspencer3: I might be over-conservative but I can see the things getting out of control quickly16:27
rickspencer3having too many cool applications being created for Ubuntu is a problem I would love to have16:27
seb128lol16:27
seb128the issue is right there16:27
seb128"cool" is what I would like to get16:27
seb128but you will get 90% crappy applications16:28
rickspencer3but users can just ignore the crap16:28
seb128crappy or disappointing16:28
rickspencer3it's not like 100% of the apps on the web are great16:28
seb128how can they know what is crap or not in those thousand items?16:28
rickspencer3how do they discover them in the first place?16:28
rickspencer3they won't be showing up in Add/Remove or anything, they'll have to know about the PPA somehow in order to discover it16:29
seb128that's a good question ;-)16:29
seb128the issue I've with a ppa is that you don't add a specific software16:29
pittiseb128: discovery is entirely separate from the mechanics of distributing them, I think16:29
rickspencer3pitti: agreed16:29
seb128but a source which might have one good software and 800 craps next to it16:29
seb128and those will be listed as well in synaptic, apt, etc16:29
rickspencer3and we can defer solving that problem until we have the problem of too many apps :)16:29
dobeydon't PPAs have disk quotas?16:29
seb128a crappy pygtk application takes few space16:30
seb128you can probably ship hundred of those in the quota limit16:30
dobeyyes, but how many people are really going to write 800 crappy pygtk apps in their one PPA?16:30
seb128I've seen people storing lot of random things in their ppa already16:31
dobeyalthough, i think all pygtk apps are crappy :)16:31
seb128including hacked version of component shipped by ubuntu16:31
dobeyeven mine16:31
rickspencer3so crappy PPA set up would be between a developer and their users, would it not?16:31
seb128you could end up installing a random linux git version which is there too16:31
seb128rickspencer3: well, users don't realize what they do, they will click to try gwibber, the ppa get added16:32
seb128rickspencer3: and next time they "upgrade" they get this git GNOME build which is also in the ppa16:32
seb128and nautilus doesn't start16:32
rickspencer3this problem exists today though16:32
seb128and users are screwed, ubuntu reputation gets damaged in the way because "ubuntu broke"16:32
seb128yes16:33
seb128and that's why I would not encourage extra ppa use until we solve it16:33
rickspencer3I don't think we solve it by keeping it hard to make and deploy apps16:33
seb128or we need a app-specific-ppa16:33
seb128ie one ppa = one software16:33
rickspencer3right16:33
seb128why does it have to be hard?16:33
seb128I was not suggesting to not deploy app16:33
rickspencer3seb128: it *is* hard16:33
dobeywhat we need is for launchpad to have PPAs on projects16:34
seb128what they discussed 6 months ago was simpler than your ppa approch16:34
seb128it was a website 1 click solution16:34
dobeyinstead of having to create a team to own PPAs16:34
asachmm16:34
rickspencer3seb128: I'm open to that16:34
dobeyso that you have a direct connection between a PPA and a specific app16:34
rickspencer3whatever is the deployment mechanism16:34
dobeyor project anyway... a project might have multiple apps16:34
seb128I think I would be happy with the 1 software by sources.list entry16:34
seb128ie if you could say "I want to get nautilus-launchpad from rick's ppa"16:35
pittiseb128: what was the gut of that, tar'ing it up and add a runme.sh which sets up PYTHONPATH=. etc.?16:35
seb128pitti: right, it was designed for easy run of prototypes16:35
seb128pitti: the rational was that softwares good to be distributed to any user should be properly deb packaged then16:36
rickspencer3so the developer basically hosts a web page where they drop their app, and users add that page to their sources list by clicking on a link?16:36
asacrickspencer3: that was the idea of apturl16:36
seb128the frontend is a bit orthogonal but yet16:36
asacrickspencer3: we have the third party repository requirements16:36
pittiI understood it as they'd directly download an executable big script which unpacks and runs itself16:36
seb128we could have a portal for all those apps16:36
rickspencer3asac: that's what I was getting at16:36
rickspencer3okay, good discussion16:36
asacrickspencer3: otherwise we explicitly didnt want to make all ppa available that easily16:36
asacbecause of quality concerns16:36
rickspencer3it's clear that we have some good options for end users actually getting the applications16:37
asacif we wanted that we could make a tiny PPA searcher app or something16:37
asacbut i wouldnt wnat to have that in apturl ... because thats really too easy to trigger from websites16:37
rickspencer3and that we are in agreement that we can put into place a developer workflow that goes from creating a project from a template to deploying it to users getting it16:37
rickspencer3quickie -> automatic python -> PPA/apturl/foo16:38
asacyeah.16:38
pittirickspencer3: if we don't produce packages, we don't really need a build system either16:39
seb128we need a portal to list those applications and let user do rating etc16:39
rickspencer3pitti: would we not produce packages?16:39
rickspencer3I assumed that debs would be at the heart of whatever we do16:39
pittirickspencer3: we would for PPA, we wouldn't for the "small scale" approach that was discussed half a year ago (which Seb explained)16:39
rickspencer3I would think users might want to create a deb, burn it to a disc, and distribute that way (or put it on an ftp server or whatever)16:39
seb128then you need to know about build requirements, etc16:39
pittiseb128: we can automate those16:40
seb128which again raise the entrance level16:40
asacpitti: so the idea is something like small python extensions that are just pulled from bzr?16:40
pittibut "deb" without "ppa" is possible as well16:40
seb128pitti: for python yes, for C... how?16:40
rickspencer3right16:40
pittiseb128: I don't even start thinking about small GUI development in C :)16:40
pittithat's far away from the target audience, I think16:40
asacplease lets not start doing a source distro ;) ... arch-all python snippets might make sense to maintain like extensions out of package16:40
asacbut binary stuff shoudl still be packaged properly imo16:41
asacgives you all the auto-depends and so on16:41
rickspencer3I would think that the "small" way would put a deb on a server someomen16:41
seb128pitti: making python packaging is something which would benefit anyone16:41
seb128+easier16:41
hggdheven python -- how you check for dependencies?16:41
pittiasac: for python the main task of the build system is to merge translations, put the .desktop file into the right place, etc., all of which isn't necessary if you don't build a package at all16:41
pittiseb128: right, which is why I want to do that anyway16:41
seb128hggdh: look for all the "import" and look what packages ship those?16:41
pittiwriting setup.py is mostly a redundant and boring task16:42
pittiask dobey :)16:42
asacpitti: yeah. so even for python we need packages16:42
asacand packages are not really hard to do imo with cdbs16:42
pittiasac: "we need" -> "I need it for apport and jockey", but not "Joe developer needs it for his pencil ordering app"16:42
pittiasac: it should be possible to run pretty much any python app right out of the source tree, without messing with setup.py etc.16:43
asacpitti: right. thats what i said above.16:43
asacbut i dont get what needs to be improved?16:43
pittiasac: did you ever use python's distutils?16:44
asaci never ran a serious python projects in the last years ;)16:45
pittiasac: I want this to be 5 lines (description, license, author) http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Ejockey-hackers/jockey/trunk/annotate/head%3A/setup.py16:45
pittiasac: and this to go away entirely: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Ejockey-hackers/jockey/trunk/annotate/head%3A/setup.cfg16:45
asacheh. yeah. i never understood why python build system is such a mess16:46
seb128which is somewhat orthogonal from the distribution discussion16:46
asacright. that sounds like a upstream build system problem16:46
seb128making python packaging easier would benefit everybody16:47
asacbesides from that a package should imo be trivial enough. if users dont like that they can still use bzr branches directly. if we think thats important we can start to maintain a "ubuntu-python-tinyapps-central" repository16:47
seb128no discussion about that16:47
asacand build a UI/cmdline to search/checkout those apps16:47
seb128then there is the discussion on how we push softwares to users16:47
pittiasac: a mess? ever looked at automake/autoconf? :-)16:48
asacseb128: yeah. if its packages, its PPA ... if its just bzr branches its the frontend for the "ubuntu-python-tinyapps-central"16:48
asacrepostiroy16:48
asacpitti: yes. thats well understood ;)16:48
mvo_seb128: python-packaging-easier++16:48
asacpitti: problem is that python world introduces new build systems every month and all dont bring much benefit over auto tools16:48
pittithat's what I meant with "pet peeve of mine"16:48
pittiasac: oh? distutils is around for ages, and so is setuptools16:49
pittiI don't know another one, actually16:49
asacyeah. then there is scons16:49
asacwhich is used by chromium16:49
pittiscons isn't a Python build system16:49
asacabsolutely wasted energy to learn that imo16:49
pittiwell, it's written _in_ python16:49
asacits not better than any autotools stuff16:49
pittibut I never saw a python project using scons to build itself16:49
pittiasac: it's better design-wise, but clumsy indeed16:49
asacyeah. i might mix things up ;). i retract the claim ;)16:50
pittiI tried it once, too, I was curious16:50
asacits good if its trivial16:50
pittiI haven't looked at cmake yet16:50
asacif you want to do things non-trivial its like banging your head against the wall ;)16:50
pittisounds like autobreak :)16:51
asacproblem is that with all this new stuff there are no established best practices and users choosing minority build systems without having a damn good reason just cause higher entry barriers16:51
* pitti has fought with the gthumb merge for half an hour and still didn't figure out WTF broke in the autotools build system16:51
asacyeah. but autotools is so old and knowledge has completely diffused in the free software community ;)16:52
asacmeaning: you will always find someone in your neighbourhood to help you fix autotools stuff ;)16:52
pittiyeah, autotools being old and crappy is the only advantage to the "new and less crappy" build system s;)16:52
pittianyway, /flamewar, need to get some things done16:52
asacyou are right. i just say that the improvements are too incremental that those dont make sense16:53
asacand thats why there is no clear winner ;)16:53
asacyeah. better working ;)16:53
=== ember_ is now known as ember
james_wpitti: paver, zc.buildout, pip16:54
pittijames_w: never heard about them16:54
james_wzc.buildout is what the LP stuff now uses, so I'm going to have to learn it soon :-/16:55
pittinone of them are packaged, are they?16:55
james_wseems not16:56
james_wah, pip isn't a build system, my bad16:57
=== awe is now known as awe-lunch
asaclool: does the mobile team any demands for karmic wrt browser stuff?17:11
seb128chrisccoulson: are you still working on the gnome-session update17:16
seb128?17:16
loolasac: Good question17:16
chrisccoulsonhey seb128 - yes, i did start doing that17:16
seb128chrisccoulson: ok good thanks17:16
loolasac: I can think of the clutter-mozilla thing as being relatively hot for moblin 217:16
seb128chrisccoulson: you will rebase on debian right?17:17
loolBut I don't think it's in a reviewable shape ATM17:17
chrisccoulsonseb128 - i've done that already. we've still got quite a delta to debian though17:17
seb128Ampelbein: let me know if you are available for some extra merges on debian17:17
loolOtherwise, keeping an eye on Fennec would be nice, that's all I can think of17:17
asaclool: moblin 2 timeline?17:17
seb128chrisccoulson: ok17:17
Laneyseb128: toss some merges over here if you want17:17
seb128didrocks: what do you have on your merge list?17:18
loolasac: It's due real soon now, and we will integrate it in karmic, probably in june or so17:18
Laneywhere is the GNOME component work assignment list?17:18
asaclool: oh moblin 2 is what we talked about already. thought it was the NEXT ;)17:18
seb128Laney: alacarte gnome-settings-daemon17:19
Laneyokey dokey17:19
asaclool: ok thanks. so keeping up with fennec is the only task mobile wise. on top probably just connman for network management.17:19
asaclool: oh i forgot, probably not only mobile, but NM UI still isnt small screen ready, right?17:19
asaclool: maybe we should tackle that this cycle too somehow17:19
loolasac: I'm sure OEM and UNR folks would be delighted by such a proposal  :)17:20
asaclool: mobile has no issues with that?17:20
loolasac: For the moblin spin, we'll probably use connman, even if not ready, but for UNR: yes definitely17:20
loolasac: We're integrating UNR, so yes, we have issues17:20
asaclool: heh ok. will that moblin spin be based on jaunty?17:20
loolin MID it's horrible, but then MID is not really at the top of our priorities :-/17:21
loolasac: Correct, but I guess we'll prepare it in karmic first, and then do some PPA backports17:21
seb128Laney: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO is sort of the list but I'm pondering moving that to bugs or bzr storage17:21
asacyeah. ok. so we need backports for those and for latest connman17:21
asacthose == small screen changes17:21
loolThat would be nice17:22
asacbtw, chromium dailies look really promissing i have to admit17:24
loolReally?  would have thought it would take much longer17:25
asaclool: you can do browsing and tabs also work17:25
asacthe preferences dialog and so on doesnt exist that17:25
asacbut i guess thats the easier part of it17:25
asacof course its 32bit only ... but the ia32build also works almost as good as i38617:26
loolWhat about flash and a11y?17:26
asacgood point ... i would think that doesnt work ;)17:26
asachttps://edge.launchpad.net/~chromium-team/+archive17:26
loolThanks17:26
asacwrong17:26
asachttps://edge.launchpad.net/~chromium-daily/+archive17:26
asaclool: ^^17:26
loolah17:26
asackarmic builds arent there yet17:26
loolYou could have a /ppa and /chromium-daily now  ;)17:27
asaclool: yes. but those were created before17:27
asaclool: i have to talk to ppa folks about a migation strategy17:27
asacwe have other PPAs that could be consolidated now17:27
asacbut just moving isnt nice ;)17:27
loolAnyway, lots of exciting stuff :)   /me returns to holidays mode and cleaning stuff around   ;)17:28
asaclool: oh. holiday. sorry for the noise. enjoy!17:28
loolOh np, I'm on IRC so it's fine :)17:29
asacstupid question, where are the "default" groups a user gets configured?17:37
asacadduser.conf seems to not be it17:37
chrisccoulsonasac - when added with users-admin?17:38
asac*shrug* ... whatever the ubuntu "default" way is i guess17:39
chrisccoulsonif you add a user with users-admin, it gets it from /etc/gnome-system-tools/users/profiles17:40
asacyeah17:40
asacfound it17:40
asacgreat17:40
asachmm. user claims that it dip is not there by default17:40
asacseems to be wrong17:41
calcyipee it looks like OOo might actually be going towards real modularization upstream :)17:46
* calc is reading a thread from late last week about it17:46
vuntzjcastro: dudie. Just want to apologize, it seems I didn't reply to your last mail in our mail discussion. But I'll reply :-)17:47
=== awe-lunch is now known as awe
brycemnemo: asac is right that we should put this into karmic too.  Even though we will have a new mesa there before too long, it's worthwhile for the extra testing if nothing else17:51
brycemnemo: however I can take care of that, so no worries17:52
mnemobryce: i managed to screw up my karmic box it seems17:52
mnemoah great17:52
pittihey bryce, good morning17:52
pittihello calc17:53
jcastrovuntz: no worries, it's a busy time for everyone. :)17:56
vuntzjcastro: but I want to be sure that you don't think I stopped loving you ;-)17:58
brycepitti: heya, hope you had a decent weekend17:58
pittibryce: it was great indeed, lots of exercise; how about you?17:59
brycepitti: it was ok, although I've been emailed rants about the intel perf issue that kinda bums me out18:01
didrocksseb128: gnome-python-extras (:p), keepalived, tracker, and no GNOME component, apparently!18:03
seb128didrocks: want to do gnome-python and gnome-python-desktop too?18:03
pittibryce: *shrug* we can't do much more than pointing to workarounds, I'm afraid18:04
didrocksseb128: ok, not for tonight, but it will be ok tomorrow :)18:04
seb128ok good, thanks18:04
pittibryce: the 965 issue worries me more; there was a comment saying that the patch overwrites the xorg.conf setting instead of just changing the default18:04
didrocksseb128: once again, just say thanks when it's done :p18:04
seb128;-)18:04
brycepitti: yep, they're just pissy we didn't stay back on 2.4.18:05
pitti*shrug* it's there for them to install18:06
brycepitti: yeah I saw that bug report and plan to look at it today.  The patch should not do that though (it checks for existing virtual settings), but maybe the check isn't complete enough.18:06
pittibryce: btw, what's the magic command to show the current virtualsize setting?18:07
pittibryce: Keith used one in his demo, but I didn't see the actual command18:07
brycexrandr | grep maximum18:08
pittiaah18:08
pittithanks18:08
nikkiclauHi.18:21
nikkiclauAnyone here ever had the issue, or knows how to resolve when one is wanting localization settings such as punctuation and date settings while having the default translation?18:23
pittiyou could set LC_TIME to a different locale than LANG (or LC_MESSAGES); please see "man locale" for more information18:27
ktenneymnemo: help with gdm hanging?18:29
mnemoktenney: did you get a chance to try the live CD yet?18:29
ktenneyliveCD is fine18:30
mnemoktenney: you got back to gdm when you logged out and then it logged you in again?18:30
ktenneyyes18:30
mnemoright, okay... so you have some config issue on your machine then ;/18:30
ktenneyright18:30
ktenneyseems pam related18:30
ktenneypam_nologin(gdm:auth): cannot determine username18:31
ktenneypossible to disable pam?18:31
ktenneyor ... what config files should I look at?18:32
mnemonot sure actually..18:32
pittigood night everyone, Taekwondo time18:32
mnemopitti: gl hf18:33
ktenneythere was a forum post, another fellow, same issue, no answers yet18:33
mnemoktenney: when you said "gdm issue" I was thinking maybe gdm failed because of some xorg related issue, in that case maybe I would have been of more help...18:33
mnemoktenney: try asking in #ubuntu maybe18:33
ktenneyno, get X, timer icon on blue field18:33
ktenneyok, though it's like the birdhouse at the zoo there, was hoping for a quiet solution here.18:34
brycemnemo: uploaded18:35
mnemobryce: excellent.. thanks a lot18:35
ktenneyhoping a gdm/pam guru would be around18:35
nikkiclaudamn .. went afk and pitti's gone18:46
nikkiclauBut actually I was wondering about a user-friendly way.18:46
calcrickspencer3: ping19:03
rickspencer3calc: callling in?19:03
calcoh oops i didn't realize it was a callin one19:03
calcdoing so now19:03
rickspencer3k19:03
rickspencer3awe: hi!19:04
rickspencer3calc: 245548086119:05
calcok in the conf now19:05
calcmy phone cut out19:14
rickspencer3awe: welcome to the desktop team for Karmic!19:15
rickspencer3calc: I assume we're skipping our weekly call this week?19:21
calcrickspencer3: yea sounds fine to me19:21
calcrickspencer3: we already covered most of what we would talk about19:21
rickspencer3calc: don't forget, we've got your back19:21
rickspencer3if you need anything, just let me know right away19:22
calcok19:23
calci'll try to get an email written up for the group about what to do as far as triage later today so that if there are any questions it can be discussed during tomorrow's meeting19:23
calci already described it in the wiki but i can give more details about my specific work flow than what really is appropriate for the wiki bug page19:24
asaccalc: is that about "how to build/update" openoffice?19:25
calcasac: how to bug triage OOo :)19:26
asacah ;)19:26
calcasac: i think i should be able to handle packaging OOo in 20%19:26
calcbut i can also add the build/update for if someone wants to try out patches, etc19:27
asacah so you are sliced ;)19:27
asaca piece of calc please :)19:27
calcheh yea19:27
asacwhats the status of the "intel" performance bug?19:30
asacwas there any news i missed?19:30
rickspencer3asac: yes19:34
rickspencer3bryce has identified a mitigation for i96519:34
rickspencer3essentially, setting virtual screen size mitigates the crash and boosts perf19:35
rickspencer3there is a patch in proposed to do just that19:35
=== awe is now known as awe-afk
asacrickspencer3: great. i have a firefox performance regression bug. i will ask them to test -proposed. which package is that? xserver-xorg-video-intel or more?19:37
rickspencer3as well as compiz (to unblacklist i965)19:37
=== awe-afk is now known as awe
asachmm.19:38
asacis that a hard blacklist? or just a default?19:38
asace.g. can affected users still enable compiz manually?19:38
crdlbhard19:44
crdlbit can be overridden by the user, but not with the gui19:45
rickspencer3asac: there are lots of instructions for enabling compiz19:45
rickspencer3attached to the bug and such19:45
=== rickspencer3 is now known as rickspencer3-afk
asaccrdlb: ok thanks. they only talked about appearence dialog i guess. so probably not their bug19:54
Ampelbeinseb128: hi, just got back home. i updated the debdiff to bug 369395 and am ready for another merge.19:56
ubottuLaunchpad bug 369395 in gnome-vfs "Please merge gnome-vfs 2.24.1-1 from debian unstable" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/36939519:56
rickspencer3-afkshould be an interesting thread to watch: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/8hsbo/how_do_you_pronounce_ubuntu/20:11
rickspencer3-afkfunny anyway20:12
=== awe is now known as awe-afk
=== awe-afk is now known as awe
seb128Ampelbein: hello, ok I will have a look after dinner, you can look on rebase seahorse on debian and updating it to 2.27 too for karmic if you want20:38
Ampelbeinseb128: ok, will do.20:38
seb128good20:38
* seb128 dinner, bbl20:38
* awe heading home...back online in an hour or so...20:58
calcpitti: ping20:59
artirOOBOONTOO21:01
* asac out for a bit21:07
Ampelbeinseb128: one question about seahorse. you say "rebase on debian" but debian still has 2.24.1, not 2.26.1 according to packages.debian.org. so i just update to 2.27.1, right?21:14
seb128Ampelbein: no21:14
calcAmpelbein: probably look in experimental21:15
calchmm nm its not there either21:15
calci guess in the pkg-gnome (or whatever then)21:15
seb128no21:15
Ampelbeincalc: i searched for all distributions21:15
seb128but we have 2.26.0-0ubuntu and we synced on 2.20.1-2 previous time21:16
seb128so use debian 2.24.121:16
seb128and apply ubuntu changes and update using that21:16
Ampelbeinah, ok.21:16
seb128ie we want all the debian changes between 2.20.1-2 and 2.24.121:16
calcok that makes more sense :)21:16
seb128seahorse is something where we should not have too much changes in ubuntu21:18
Ampelbeinseb128: but won't we always be ahead of debian with gnome?21:20
seb128right21:20
seb128we still aim at giving back there things which could be useful and lower the differences21:20
seb128that benefit debian and that makes our job easier21:21
Ampelbeinseb128: ok, understood.21:21
Ampelbeinseb128: but the changes-file i generate is still based on 2.26.1 in ubuntu? so that only the files in debian/ represent the state of 2.24. in debian plus ubuntu-changes?21:23
seb128hum?21:26
seb128I usually don't merge changelog entries21:26
seb128what I do is take the debian source21:26
seb128dch -v 2.27.0-0ubuntu121:26
seb128Then write "new upstream version"21:26
seb128and then I summarize the ubuntu changes21:27
seb128and I apply those to the source by looking at the previous changelog and diff to see what is still revelant21:27
seb128ie you want to add again the ubuntu keyring change21:27
seb128so you write that in the changelog and copy the patch over there21:27
seb128and you continue going through the diff until there is no ubuntu change that need to be applied21:28
seb128then you can look if there is some new requirement in 2.27 and do those changes too21:28
seb128that makes sense?21:28
Ampelbeinseb128: ok, so i just drop the changelog-entries?21:31
seb128right21:31
seb128just summarize all the changes in the current one21:31
seb128don't copy the "lp: #nnnn" or change the format though21:31
seb128to not spam the same bugs number again21:31
Ampelbeinok.21:32
james_wthat's fixed in LP, it won't keep trying to close bugs from changelog entries if they are already closed21:35
seb128james_w: it will not add the comment either?21:37
james_wcorrect21:37
Ampelbeinseb128: we have a seahorse.preinst to remove the conffiles obsoleted by version 2.23.5, debian has not. do we keep such a change?21:54
seb128Ampelbein: if 2.23.5 was after hardy yes21:55
Ampelbeinseb128: oh, just noticed. debian has a changelog-entry that it took the change from ubuntu, but they do not ship the .preinst file mentioned. i'll file a bug with debian?21:57
seb128look to the next ones if they dropped it by mistake perhaps if not open a bug21:57
Ampelbeinseb128: no further mention so i guess it's a bug. another question: the watch file should also look for unstable version in ubuntu?22:02
chrisccoulsonseb128 - any idea why gnome-session has a build-depends on xtrans-dev in ubuntu but not in debian?22:13
chrisccoulsoni can't find anything in the changelog which explains it22:13
=== rickspencer3-afk is now known as rickspencer3
mpontilloAnyone know if there is an easy way to do the equivalent of "apt-get source <package>" from the command line, but grab the corresponding Debian source package instead of the Ubuntu version? (Modify sources.list maybe?)22:34
dobeyyou can just download the source off packages.debian.org's web site too22:35
dobeyalthough that's not command line22:35
mpontilloHm. Maybe I'll hack up a quick deb-src-get script then22:35
Laneympontillo: there is pull-debian-source in the ubuntu-dev-tools package22:36
mpontilloLaney: thanks, I'll check it out22:36
seb128you can add a debian source22:37
seb128and apt-get source binary=version22:38
mpontillothanks for the tips - pull-debian-source did exactly what I wanted. I like that you can also specify the release, as well. (adding the debian source directly could be handy at times, might have bad side effects if I'm not careful - like if I forget it's there, no?)22:44
seb128well not really bad, you can download a debian source where you want an ubuntu one if it's newer in debian yes22:48
Ampelbeinseb128: i get a "dh_desktop" is deprecated for seahorse (http://paste.ubuntu.com/164503/). apparently this comes from gnome.mk, included in the rules-file. should I care for this?22:59
seb128Ampelbein: no, don't bother22:59
Ampelbeinseb128: ok, bug 371871 ready for review22:59
ubottuLaunchpad bug 371871 in seahorse "Please sponsor version 2.27.1 in karmic" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/37187122:59
seb128Ampelbein: I've it locally already thanks ;-)23:00
seb128the bug emails have been quicker than IRC ;-)23:00
Ampelbeinseb128: ok, but i changed something to the diff.gz recently, made a mistake in debian/control.in, missing ',' after gnome-pkg-tools23:01
seb128you can summarize NEWS changes when you do new version updates btw, some users like to read those23:01
seb128right, I got the new version23:01
Ampelbeinseb128: should i add new version with NEWS-changes?23:07
seb128Ampelbein: what do you mean?23:08
seb128I usually write23:08
seb128* New upstream version:23:08
seb128 -23:08
seb128 -23:08
seb128 -23:08
seb128where the enumerations are the NEWS items23:09
seb128without the translation changes which are not that interesting23:09
Ampelbeinseb128: yeah. should i change the update to include this? it's only two changes. (one, if you don't count translations)23:09
seb128no don't bother23:09
seb128there is nothing too interesting to list in this one ;-)23:09
seb128that's handy when you want to close bugs in launchpad too23:10
Ampelbeinseb128: i usually do this, when there is important change. but adding old changelogs does not seem to be.23:10
seb128right, there was only the context menu thing which was worth listing23:11
seb128hum23:12
seb128there is a mistake in the update23:12
Ampelbeinseb128: what's the issue?23:13
seb128Ampelbein: the html documentation is already shipped in seahorse binary23:13
brycepitti: fix for virtual override uploaded23:13
seb128there is a reason why the .install had the zillion lines23:13
seb128rather than just the share directory as debian do ;-)23:13
seb128Ampelbein: already -> also, ie you have the .html in 2 binaries23:14
brycepitti: fix was pretty obvious and easy; in fact someone else came up with it independently (bug 371544), so I gave him the credit23:14
ubottuLaunchpad bug 371544 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "xserver-xorg-video-intel doesn't respect screen virtual resolution in xorg.conf" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/37154423:15
Ampelbeinseb128: ah, i see. didn't check that one, thought the "most specific" entry in *.install "wins".23:18
seb128no, it just copy everything listed23:18
Ampelbeinseb128: i'll fix that and will list the NEWS in a new upload.23:19
seb128ok thanks23:19
seb128it's time to go to bed there but I will review it tomorrow23:19
seb128if you are looking for other things to do you can have a look to do the same thing for gnome-media too23:20
seb128ie rebase on debian if required and update to 2.2723:20
seb128see you tomorrow23:21

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