[00:26] <rastamac> hola tengo un problema con el sonido que al reproducir o al hacer cualquier sonido me hace un ruido entre el sonido
[00:27] <forces> rastamac, que tarjeta gráfica tenes?
[00:28] <rastamac> sis 671/771
[00:32] <rastamac> ?
=== customer is now known as linuxman410
[01:59] <nintnint> Can someone walk me through getting MPD and Ario working?
[02:05] <nintnint> ok thanks
=== danopia` is now known as danopia
[03:10] <customer> i keep trying to write a image to floppy and it says permission denied how do i do it
[03:11] <cody-somerville> how are you trying?
[03:11] <customer> dd if=bootfloppy.img of=/dev/fd0 count=1 bs=1440k
[03:11] <customer>  like this
[03:11] <cody-somerville> as what user?
[03:12] <customer> as regular user
[03:13] <cody-somerville> customer, You'll need to use sudo to run the command as root
[03:13] <customer> so type sudo in front of it
=== danopia` is now known as danopia
[03:29] <Cypher67> i could not find a firewl
[03:29] <Cypher67> sorry
[03:29] <Cypher67> i could not find a firewall in xubuntu system any ideas?
[03:51] <jimisrvrox> hey guys having probs with this POS 4318 not showing in NM anybody good with wireless here?
[03:52] <jimisrvrox> btw im using 8.10
[03:56] <jimisrvrox> R1cochet: hey are you good with wireless?
[03:56] <ddsweet47> I looking for help with a display problem in ubuntu 9.04.  i ran a flight simulator the screen over lapped and had to reboot.  when it came back up the highest resolution that is listed it 800 x 600 and i am getting random boxes on the screen.
[05:08] <rparish> how do i open a samba share with xubuntu
[05:09] <The-Kernel> So, I have 4 gig's of ram, like Windows, do I need to be using 64-bit to utilize it all?!
[07:09] <scarlet> any 1 know how to install lx 800 epson printer in ubuntu jaunty?
[07:11] <R1cochet> cant  just plug it in?
[07:11] <R1cochet> cant u*
[07:12] <scarlet> Page 1 (Scheduler not running?):
[07:12] <scarlet> {'cups_connection_failure': False}
[07:12] <scarlet> Page 2 (Choose printer):
[07:12] <scarlet> {'cups_dests_available': [], 'cups_queue_listed': False}
[07:12] <scarlet> Page 3 (Local or remote?):
[07:12] <scarlet> {'printer_is_remote': False}
[07:12] <scarlet> those come form printer troubleshooter
[07:12] <R1cochet> ok
[07:12] <R1cochet> sorry man cant help
[07:12] <scarlet> the printer is already connected, but xubuntu cannot recognized it
[07:13] <scarlet> differenet situaation when i use ubuntu intrepid
[07:14] <R1cochet> i dunno
[07:14] <R1cochet> did u upgrade or fresh install?
[07:15] <scarlet> using fresh install
[07:15] <scarlet> lot of my hardware didnt recognises
[07:16] <scarlet> my geforce 2 mx, no sound , no printer
[07:17] <R1cochet> well ima start my printer since fresh install
[07:18] <R1cochet> u have me worried somewhat
[07:18] <scarlet> what brand printer ?
[07:19] <R1cochet> epson
[07:19] <R1cochet> seems to work
[07:19] <R1cochet> i mean its recognized and all the options are there but no damn ink levels still
[07:20] <scarlet> oic
[07:21] <scarlet> is there a away to donwload the driver?
[07:21] <R1cochet> i have no isea
[07:22] <R1cochet> idea*
[07:22] <R1cochet> u might check in #ubuntu
[07:22] <R1cochet> they might be able to help
[07:28] <moodog> morning all
[07:30] <R1cochet> morning
[08:21] <ChrisVighagen> Hi! I have a weird problem, my system partion is loosing space at the rate of 2.5-5Mbyte per hour and I have no idea whats causing it.
[08:22] <ChrisVighagen> the /tmp and /var/tmp contain noting out of order
[09:09] <tavasti> ChrisVighagen, are changes permanent, or is extra 'diskfiller' disappearing in boot?
[09:10] <Roylap> Any of you have problems runing Unetbootin in xubuntu 9.04?
[09:10] <tavasti> some programs may use space in /tmp so that they open file and remove it from filesystem
[09:10] <tavasti> program can still use file (write, read) but you can't see it
[09:10] <tavasti> but it still uses disk space untill program closes file
[09:11] <tavasti> if filler is permanent, you should be able to find it with 'du '
[09:13] <tavasti> run 'du -x > /tmp/du_log.1' and after one hour 'du -x > /tmp/du_log.2', and 'diff /tmp/du_log*'
[09:13] <tavasti> HTH
[09:15] <ChrisVighagen> tavasti, I dont reboot my system that often
[09:15] <ChrisVighagen> last tiem ai rebooted was 8 days ago... and before that it was about 2 months...
[09:16] <tavasti> same here
[09:16] <tavasti> try that du-thing
[09:16] <ChrisVighagen> but that use of du was interesting.
[09:17] <ChrisVighagen> i'm going to try that =) thx
[09:17] <tavasti> that might be some program writing log file with debug-settings
[09:18] <tavasti> or even without debug, some web server access log?
[09:20] <ChrisVighagen> On a different topic, i get this error message everytime i start Firefox it started yesterday
[09:20] <ChrisVighagen> ailed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit, or you have stale NFS locks due to a system crash. See http://projects.gnome.org/gconf/ for information. (Details -  1: Server ping error: IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0)
[09:20] <ChrisVighagen> Failed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit, or you have stale NFS locks due to a system crash. See http://projects.gnome.org/gconf/ for information. (Details -  1: Server ping error: IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0)
[09:20] <ChrisVighagen> Failed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit, or you have stale NFS locks due to a system crash. See http://projects.gnome.org/gconf/ for information. (Details -  1: Server ping error: IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0)
[09:20] <ChrisVighagen> Failed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit, or you have stale NFS locks due to a system crash. See http://projects.gnome.org/gconf/ for information. (Details -  1: Server ping error: IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0)
[09:20] <ChrisVighagen> Failed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit, or you have stale NFS locks due to a system crash. See http://projects.gnome.org/gconf/ for information. (Details -  1: Server ping error: IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0)
[09:20] <tavasti> !pastebin
[09:20] <ubottu> pastebin is a service to post multiple-lined texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu.com (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic)
[09:20] <ChrisVighagen> ah sorry
[09:21] <ChrisVighagen> http://paste.ubuntu.com/165949/
[09:22] <tavasti> have you looked http://projects.gnome.org/gconf/ ?
[09:24] <rocko> for real?
[09:24] <rocko> yo
[09:30] <ChrisVighagen> rocko, do you mean me?
[09:40] <R1cochet> yes
[09:40] <R1cochet> yes
[09:41] <ChrisVighagen> Hi I'm back... a reboot cleared the / partition so that I now have 3.06Gb of 7.33Gb free... very strange.
[09:42] <R1cochet> listen music player doesnt open for me, please help
[09:42] <Roylap> new install?
[09:42] <R1cochet> yea
[09:43] <R1cochet> mouse goes to busy cursor then stops and nothing happens
[09:43] <Roylap> open the file with totem movie player
[09:43] <Roylap> it will ask you to dl codecs
[09:44] <R1cochet> it plays it in totem
[09:44] <Roylap> its listed as "movie player" if you right click on a file and choose open with other..
[09:45] <R1cochet> doesnt open
[09:46] <Roylap> can you start the Listen music player from Application > multimedia >
[09:46] <Roylap> ?
[09:46] <R1cochet> no
[09:46] <R1cochet> thats how i usually try to start it
[09:47] <R1cochet> terminal output when ii try to open player: http://paste.ubuntu.com/165965/
[09:49] <Roylap> sorry I have no idea then :>
[09:49] <R1cochet> all good thanx for trying
[09:51] <tavasti> ChrisVighagen, on possible reason for such is some log file + rotation
[09:52] <tavasti> program logging to file, and after a while, logrotate removes file, but program logging still to same file, which if already removed
[09:52] <tavasti> you can't see it on filesystem, but it still takes space
[09:52] <ChrisVighagen> that is scary
[09:52] <tavasti> seen it for example with apache
[09:53] <ChrisVighagen> is there a solution for it?
[09:53] <tavasti> config that logging program to change file regularily
[09:53] <tavasti> or restart it when log files are rotated
[09:54] <tavasti> but first of all, you have to find that file which is growing
[09:54] <tavasti> now after reboot you have suitable time to check with that du trick
[09:54] <tavasti> file is most liikely still there, so you can see it
[09:54] <ChrisVighagen> Step One, find the offending program and punish it severely. =D At least now I know how to proceed with the scripting. thanks for the help
[09:55] <tavasti> you're welcome
[10:17] <turutosiya> hello
[10:17] <turutosiya> I've installed xubuntu (jaunty) on thinkpad t41
[10:19] <turutosiya> i feel slow. how can i make it faster?
[10:20] <tavasti> what is slow?
[10:21] <turutosiya> all windows moving
[10:22] <R1cochet> video card?
[10:23] <turutosiya> ATI Mobility radeon 7500
[10:25] <Roylap> Whats lighter then xfce?
[10:33] <R1cochet> turutosiya: did u install the grafx driver?
[12:53] <techknowlust> Can someone point me in the direction of the xfce config file on a live cd?
[12:53] <techknowlust> I am trying to edit it to change the default backdrop after an install, but I can't seem to find it
[12:54] <techknowlust> I'd rather do it in a config file than replace the default file with my own one
[12:59] <techknowlust> no-one?
[13:22] <shinbatsu> hello, can anyone help me access floppydisks in Xubuntu 9.10?
[13:30] <Shapeshifter> hi. Where can I get an .img of the xubuntu 9.04 iso to put on an usb stick (don't have a cd drive on this machine)?
[13:31] <Slonkie> http://xubuntu.org ?
[13:35] <Roylap> Shapeshifter: you dont need an .img file for that. Download Unetbootin (win and linux cleint).
[13:35] <Roylap> http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/
[13:36] <shinbatsu> Slonkie was that for me? I've found no relevant information there or in the wiki or in the forums
[13:39] <shinbatsu> I've tried to mount the floppy the ordinary linux way but get "mount: special device /dev/fd0 does not exist"
[13:47] <isaac_> Got a question about the AT&T USB internet "aircard."  Will it work with Linux, specifically Xubuntu 9.04?  The people at AT&T tech support hadn't even heard of Linux. :/
[15:23] <Diecast_Messiah> Hailz all
[15:24] <Diecast_Messiah> anyone know ... if there is a way i can change my system menu??
[15:26] <DetroitLibertyPe> yes
[15:26] <DetroitLibertyPe> Its Linux, you can do anything
[15:30] <SiDi> Diecast_Messiah: Intrepid / Jaunty ?
[15:30] <SiDi> http://wiki.xfce.org/howto/customize-menu
[15:32] <Diecast_Messiah> 8.10 Intrepid
[15:33] <Slonkie> I have a shockwave flash plugin in firefox, anyone know how i can uninstall this?
[15:33] <DetroitLibertyPe> slonkie: did you get it from the repos or from shockwave directly?
[15:34] <Diecast_Messiah> Sidi osrry interpid
[15:34] <Slonkie> I don't know DetroitLibertyPe it's just there when i install firefox
[15:34] <SiDi> Diecast_Messiah: look above for the menu entries inside Accessories/System / etc
[15:34] <SiDi> either, there is a menu editor on right click for the other menu entries
[15:35] <SiDi> Slonkie: swfdec-mozilla ?
[15:35] <Slonkie> Thank you, SiDi. :)
[15:38] <Diecast_Messiah> mmm not seeing it.... in the editor i have like setting and all that .. i can make my own entry and that no problem.... but there is a system menu and all i can do is to make it simple or multi-level
[15:40] <Diecast_Messiah> sorry i feel dumb ..lol new to xfce... before it was just ubuntu and pclinuxOS before that
[15:41] <SiDi> Diecast_Messiah: for this you have to modify the .desktop files
[15:41] <SiDi> http://wiki.xfce.org/howto/customize-menu
[15:41] <SiDi> menu editor planned for xfce 4.8
[15:42] <Diecast_Messiah> oh ok thank ever ever much
[15:42] <Diecast_Messiah> very very LOL
[15:50] <Diecast_Messiah> wow never would have found that on my own LOL... thanks again... I'll have to try this out
[15:50] <Diecast_Messiah> later all
[16:27] <likemindead> Anyone know how to install Ceni in Xubuntu?
[16:27] <likemindead> Or even where to find it?
[16:28] <DetroitLibertyPe> apt-cache seach ceni?
[16:29] <DetroitLibertyPe> ^search
[16:29] <genii> It's in Debian but not in Ubuntu
[16:33] <SiDi> genii: you might want to ask in #ubuntu-motu if someone can port it before debian import freeze for karmic
[16:34] <likemindead> That'd be awesome. It comes with antiX M8 and works wonders for network configuration.
[16:34] <genii> Looks like there was a PPA for Hardy, here: https://edge.launchpad.net/~inx-devel/+archive/ppa
[16:34] <likemindead> ;-)
[17:02] <SiDi> re
[17:02] <SiDi> oops
[17:28] <Araneidae> Can I get rid of all my window decorations?  (Then I'll need a close window key/mouse combination.)
[17:28] <ZeZu> you dont even have to have a window manager
[17:28] <ZeZu> or you could use twm
[17:29] <ZeZu> and F4 ought ot close them
[17:29] <ZeZu> to*
[17:30] <Araneidae> Well, I've tried the really lightweight window managers, but xfce isn't bad
[17:30] <SiDi> ZeZu: what is xfwm then ?
[17:30] <SiDi> ah sorry
[17:30] <SiDi> i read "you don't have"
[17:30] <SiDi> instead of "have to have"
[17:31]  * SiDi should read twice before speaking.
[17:31] <ZeZu> with ubuntu attached to it, xfce seems a bit heavy for the really old hardware anyhow
[17:31] <Araneidae> Well, I've played with dwm and xmonad, both very lightweight ... but xfce is good enough for me
[17:31] <SiDi> its meant to be worked on :p
[17:31] <ZeZu> i have an ibook g3 w/ 256mb of ram, and i have no free mem for sure running xubuntu :)
[17:31] <Araneidae> But I'd like the option of *really* bare windows!
[17:32] <Araneidae> Well ... calling xmonad lightweight is a bit of a lie
[17:32] <ZeZu> e17 runs on the beagleboard w/ 128mb of ram
[17:33] <Araneidae> Presumably I could cook up my own window style ... but don't know where they're documented
[17:33] <ZeZu> google will prob have some answers for you there
[17:33] <ZeZu> i've never looked into it
[17:33] <ZeZu> I can usually find something i like
[17:34] <ZeZu> or use nothing at all, then you just get a rect
[17:34] <Araneidae> Is there an option for nothing at all?  Didn't spot that
[17:35]  * ZeZu shrugs, its an option, dont know if a UI "has" that option in a menu somewhere
[17:35] <Araneidae> Currently using Window Manager "Totem" style, the lightest I could find
[17:35] <ZeZu> as is twm
[17:35] <Araneidae> Sure.  Where does xfce keep its configuration options?
[17:35] <ZeZu> well you realize it wont be using xfce anymore
[17:35] <ZeZu> just straight X
[17:36] <Araneidae> Ah, no -- I'm happy with the basic behavour of xfce, going to keep that for now
[17:36] <ZeZu> no wm = no xfce-desktop,  no panel,  no anything other than just a rect if youy open a window
[17:36] <Araneidae> yah, dwm wasn't very different from that
[17:37] <Araneidae> Tried it, it's ok, but more work than I'm interested in for my desktop...
[17:42] <Hezy> I tried gnome-do today. now I know where the name comes from - it installed more than half of gnome on my system...
[17:44] <DetroitLibertyPe> hezy:you'll have that
[17:44] <DetroitLibertyPe> I liked Amarok and K3b, now I have almost all of KDE on mine
[17:47] <Hezy> DetroitLibertyPe: I could actually login into gnome. but it used dolphin as a file manager (WTF?)
[17:47] <SiDi> Hezy: of course
[17:47] <SiDi> since you didn't install the session
[17:48] <SiDi> it used your own apps instead of the gnome-session's default apps
[17:48] <Hezy> yes. but I don't use dolphin, I use thunar...
[17:49] <Hezy> I think dolphin wad installed when I tried digikam
[17:49] <Hezy> what a mess
[18:38] <DetroitLibertyPe> Hezy:That's messed up
[18:39] <DetroitLibertyPe> Id just go threw synaptic and take out all that bolonga
=== techknowlust is now known as techknowlust|awa
[19:53] <tmurase> hm.  someone recommended midori to me a while back as an alternative to ff
[19:54] <tmurase> but, so far it's not any lighter than ff 3.5
[19:58] <SiDi> hah :P
[19:58] <SiDi> tmurase: i don't believe you
[19:58] <SiDi> and im a true gecko fan
[19:59] <SiDi> here midori uses ~10x less RAM
[19:59] <slow-motion> hi
[19:59] <Slonkie> Good evening slow-motion!
[20:00] <slow-motion> hi Slonkie
[20:04] <tmurase> SiDi: with what I usually have in terms of tabs open they're about the same
[20:08] <DetroitLibertyPe> tmurase: my personal prefernce is SeaMonkey, Dillo is lighter, and if you wanna go ultra light, Netrik is tiny
[20:21] <Slonkie> Where can i change my DNS servers in xubuntu?
[20:21] <SiDi>  /etc/resolv.conf :P
[20:22] <Slonkie> so the "nameservers" would be my DNS servers right?
[20:23] <SiDi> yeh
[20:23] <SiDi> !resolv
[20:23] <ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about resolv
[20:23] <SiDi> (i'm not sure)
[20:23] <SiDi> !dns
[20:23] <ubottu> DNS is an acronym for Domain Name System, and is an internet system used to translate names into IP Address.
[20:23] <SiDi> pff
[20:24] <Slonkie> well i'l try.. should i reboot after changing the name servers?
[20:24] <genii> That file takes effect immediately
[20:24] <Slonkie> all right thanks
[20:25] <Slonkie> yep that did the trick. Thanks SiDi & genii :).
=== techknowlust|awa is now known as techknowlust
[20:43] <Slonkie> I forgot.. where is it i need to place new themes?
[20:44] <charlie-tca> I put them in /usr/share/themes
[20:44] <Slonkie> Thanks :)
[20:45] <SiDi> tmurase: you were right
[20:45] <SiDi> midori's engine eats much more ram actually :o
[20:45] <SiDi> (another myth debunked, webkit not lighter than gecko :O)
[20:45] <charlie-tca> That seems bad
[20:46] <SiDi> for gmail, ff 3.5 takes 81 MB
[20:46] <SiDi> and midori 100
[20:46] <SiDi> and ff is of course much more complete in terms of functionalities
[20:47] <charlie-tca> That seems realbad
[20:47] <Slonkie> hmm i can't copy them in there
[20:48] <Slonkie> i typed "sudo cp <theme> /usr/share/themes"
[20:48] <Slonkie> that should be right?
[20:48] <charlie-tca> looks right
[20:48] <Slonkie> cp: omitting directory `darkertheme'
[20:48] <Slonkie> What does that mean?
[20:49] <SiDi> charlie-tca: i'm gonna enable the midori ppa
[20:49] <charlie-tca> sudo cp -r
[20:49] <SiDi> its not fair, ff was on 3.5beta
[20:49] <knome> Slonkie, it's not copying that directory
[20:49] <Slonkie> :S
[20:49] <charlie-tca> why enable it?
[20:50] <charlie-tca> sudo cp -r <theme> /usr/share/themes or else it is -R
[20:50] <Slonkie> -r did the trick
[20:50] <Slonkie> thanks! :)
[20:50] <charlie-tca> got one right?
[20:51] <charlie-tca> SiDi: nm, just got confused here
[20:53] <SiDi> charlie-tca: latest midori still heavy
[20:53] <SiDi> goes 107MB almost instantly
[20:54] <charlie-tca> Let jeromeg know, I think
[20:54] <SiDi> i'll come back with ff-3.6 and see how it goes
[20:54] <SiDi> see if it has memory leaks
[21:04] <J_Litewski> is there a sources list for xfce.net?
[21:05] <charlie-tca> Wouldn't that be a website?
[21:06] <J_Litewski> yea...
[21:06] <J_Litewski> i was just wondering if xfce.net has a sources list for XFCE4
[21:06] <knome> J_Litewski, what do you need with sources list?
[21:06] <charlie-tca> Oh, try apt-get source xfce
[21:07] <knome> *mean
[21:07] <J_Litewski> i just want to update xfce
[21:07] <knome> right
[21:07] <J_Litewski> since my little "update from source" didn't work too well
[21:08] <SiDi> J_Litewski: their git/svn
[21:08] <SiDi> its highly not recommanded tho
[21:08] <J_Litewski> right
[21:08] <tmurase> SiDi: heh
[21:09] <J_Litewski> or is there talk about when 4.6.1 will be mainstreamed?
[21:10] <knome> J_Litewski, soonish, i suppose
[21:10] <charlie-tca> I believe it is in work
[21:10] <J_Litewski> because it sucks not being able to mount HAL DUI devices
[21:11] <J_Litewski> have my CD's don't work anymore
[21:11] <J_Litewski> *half
[21:12] <J_Litewski> could also be that my CD-rom drive sucks too, idk
[21:12] <J_Litewski> stupid undockable CD-rom drive :-/
[21:13] <knome> :P
[21:14] <J_Litewski> well, off to work on my program
[21:44] <SiDi> there are improvements in ff3.6
[21:44] <SiDi> a one regression (major one)
[21:44] <SiDi> (the text of the uris in the urlbar's autocompletion proposals is BLUE like any URI color instead of the theme's text fg color !)
[21:47] <likemindead> Welp... Xubuntu 9.04 has beat out antiX M8 as my preferred disto for my old Latitude C610 PII/1GB RAM laptop. ;D
[21:48] <SiDi> :D
[21:48] <SiDi> Glad to hear this :)
[21:49] <likemindead> I still love antiX, though. CrunchBang too. ^__^
[21:49] <likemindead> But Xubuntu has my <3.
[21:50] <J_Litewski> Likemindead, the Dell Latitude C610 is one of the best Dell lappies i ever used
[21:50] <J_Litewski> to bad mine didn't like windows to much
[21:50] <J_Litewski> it would start deleting needed files
[21:51] <likemindead> J_Litewski, ... well... it _is_ Windoze...
[21:51] <likemindead> ;p
[21:53] <J_Litewski> heh
[21:53] <likemindead> Are you new to Linux, J_Litewski?
[21:56] <J_Litewski> on my Inspiron 1000
=== danopia` is now known as danopia
=== zoredache_ is now known as zoredache
[22:53] <estan> hey folks. how can i manually set my name server temporarily on xubuntu? i can't find a /etc/resolv.conf..
[22:56] <estan> ah nevermind, i could just create the file.
[23:38] <MTec007> Hello every body. I am having some strange system issues regarding wireless internet. I recently followed a guide on ndiswrapper and I do beleive that it has fixed 'something' but as to what, I am not sure. My wireless card is connected to my (for now any way) unsecured router. It has been assigned an IP address via DHCP and the connection status says its connected at 54MBps. Would a system permission issue cause the wireless card
[23:38] <MTec007>  not to be able to access the internet even though it could connect to the router to get an IP assigned? I am using firestarter (the results are the same no matter what I do with that even turning it off doesn't make a bit of noticeable difference. Any and all help would be greatly received and appreciated.
[23:46] <SiDi> Firestarter is not needed, firewall with default settings lets you have the internet :)
[23:46] <SiDi> are you sure you got an IP ?
[23:46] <SiDi> type ifconfig and paste it please
[23:46] <SiDi> !past
[23:46] <ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about past
[23:46] <SiDi> !paste
[23:46] <ubottu> pastebin is a service to post multiple-lined texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu.com (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic)