[00:06] <seaLne> i think something during pre release of jaunty ment i ended up with a gtk password prompt from kpackagekit is there a known fix?
[00:07]  * seaLne watches the instructions for ubuntu one fail miserably on kubuntu :(
[00:09] <seaLne> the install page is scarily lacking in details
[00:12]  * seaLne presumes he is not the first to notice the lack of QA in this
[00:17] <Nightrose> seaLne: seele had that in her kpackagekit review as well
[00:17] <Nightrose> she fixed it by installing another package
[00:17] <Nightrose> don't remember which one but check her slides
[00:17] <Nightrose> should be in there
[00:18] <Nightrose> and let me know which one it was so i can install it here as well :D
[00:18] <seaLne> heh, i know its a pre release problem because its fine on machine installed later than this one :)
[00:18] <Nightrose> my upgrade has the problem as well
[00:18] <Nightrose> without any pre-release versions
[00:18] <seaLne> oh?
[00:19] <ScottK> seele: Pong
[00:19] <seaLne> i gave up and did a clean install on my work machine upgrading with pre releases from hoary over the years had its tole
[00:20] <Nightrose> hehe
[00:20] <Nightrose> i think i upgraded this one since gutsy
[00:20] <Nightrose> sometimes prerelease sometimes not
[01:00] <txwikinger> Is it me, or does the ubuntu one installation does not work with konqueror
[01:18] <Riddell> it won't work if it uses apt-url
[01:19] <nellery> txwikinger: you could just install it manually instead of clicking the link
[01:19] <txwikinger> well.. it works with firefox
[01:19] <txwikinger> I just wondered if it is only on my machine
[01:20] <nellery> txwikinger: the instructions say
[01:20] <nellery> Note: If you're using a non-Firefox web browser, you can install the client by going to System » Administration » Synaptic Package Manger and searching for ubuntuone-client
[01:20] <txwikinger> nellery: hehe... reading instructions? I must have lost that ability long time ago ;)
[01:21] <nellery> txwikinger: heheh well I completely missed out the big INSTALL button and just installed it manually
[01:21] <txwikinger> :D
[01:30] <seele> ScottK: have you been following the discussion on the ayatana ml? i'm confused about some of the functionality they are talking about
[01:30] <seele> ScottK: it doesnt seem like it will be compatible with any kde system
[01:45] <ScottK> seele: I have been trying to follow it.  I tend to agree.
[02:17] <a|wen> Nightrose: too slow; new snapshot already packed in my personal PPA https://launchpad.net/~andreas-wenning/+archive/experimental , Lure would give it a quick test that it wasn't completely broken before it is sent out to a lot of people; but you're welcome to give it a try :)
[02:22] <a|wen> of course including the claimed "working with hidden network part" ... snapshot taken 2½ hours before you asked ;)
[03:02] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: hiding.  And asleep ;)
[07:13] <Nightrose> a|wen: wow - i'm impressed :D
[07:23] <Lure> a|wen: hidden+wpa2-enterprise+peap+mschapv2 works for the first time with plasma-network-manager!
[07:23] <Lure> a|wen: I think your test package is more than ready for wider testing
[07:30] <a|wen> Lure and Nightrose: sounds almost like we have a winner already :) ... I'll upload and send out a notice later today
[07:37] <crouic> hello
[07:37] <Lure_> a|wen: yes, I am more than happy with this version
[07:38]  * Lure_ is currently connected both to wire and wireless
[07:42] <a|wen> great :)
[08:04] <chakersito> hi! i have a problem with the update of KDE4.2.3
[08:05] <chakersito> when I run in the console a comand with _sudo_ I got this error
[08:05] <chakersito> Could not start ksmserver. Check yout installation
[08:05] <chakersito> and the KDM restart
[08:28] <fabo> Riddell: thks for the mails on -talk
[08:28] <fabo> I merged phonon stuff
[08:30] <fabo> btw, I think you should merge firebird/ibase stuff as I rememember a launchpad bug requesting it.
[08:37] <fabo> Riddell: wrt to phonon global issue, I guess it's a Qt bug and should be fixed there instead of fixing all others packages
[09:02] <Mamarok> hi all
[09:02] <Mamarok> once upon a time, there were Qt 4.5 packages available for Intrepid, but I can't remember on which PPA...
[09:08] <Mamarok> I need those desperately :(
[09:25] <apachelogger> bug 375145
[09:35] <apachelogger> kwwii: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art <= description typo ... should be Qt instead of QT ;-)
[10:03] <\sh_> moins
[10:25] <kwwii> apachelogger: thanks, I'll change it
[11:32] <fabo> Riddell: thiago fixed phonon global issue
[11:32] <Riddell> fabo: yeah saw that, I reverted my the commits I made to KDE SVN
[11:33] <Riddell> fabo: are you going to follow the packaging naming I used for phonon from qt?
[11:35] <fabo> Riddell: libqt4-phonon ?
[11:35] <fabo> yes
[11:36]  * fabo goes to lunch
[11:38] <Riddell> groovy
[13:40] <mok0> Why do some apps have several icons in the K-menu?
[13:40] <mok0> For example: k3b
[13:42] <ScottK> I only have one.
[13:42] <mok0> Hmm
[13:42] <mok0> ScottK, did you upgrade or make a fresh install?
[13:42] <ScottK> Upgrade.
[13:43] <mok0> ScottK, do you know if the .desktop entries are cached somewhere?
[13:43] <ScottK> No idea.  Sorry.
[13:44]  * ScottK just slams this stuff into pacakges - doesn't know how all the bits actually work.
[13:44] <mok0> ScottK, he, you're not the only one I think :-)
[14:04] <mok0> ScottK, do you know why "hicolor" is special theme? It seems to be default
[14:04] <ScottK> That should be a fallback.
[14:04] <mok0> ScottK, I see
[14:04] <mok0> ScottK, common for no matter what theme?
[14:05] <ScottK> Common for when whatever theme you are using doesn't provide something.
[14:05] <ScottK> Oxygen should be the default theme.
[14:05] <mok0> ScottK, sounds reasonable... except, it should be called "default" or "fallback" or something...
[14:07] <mok0> The following helped clean up my K-menu: right-click on it, select menu-editor -> Edit -> Restore to System Menu
[14:08] <mok0> ... and also: sudo update-icon-caches /usr/share/icons/hicolor
[14:12] <seele> hmm.. i installed notify-osd, but how to i turn it on?
[14:12] <Riddell> run gnome?
[14:13] <seele> oh, it requires gnome? it doesnt work in kde yet?
[14:13] <seele> why didnt it pull gnome in as a dependency then?
[14:14] <Riddell> I don't know I was just guessing, you'd need to be running an app that uses it at least, like pidgen
[14:15] <seele> ugh
[14:16] <seele> how am i supposed to evaluate this compared to kde notifications if it doesnt work with kde apps yet..
[14:18] <Riddell> well run it from a gnome app and note the differences.  that notifications don't work cross desktop is one of the more fiddly problem I hope the dx team will solve
[14:23] <ScottK> seele: You can use notify-send to send yourself notifications.
[14:23] <ScottK> That requires another package, but it'll tell you which one the first time you try it.
[14:26] <seele> ScottK: thanks
[14:26] <ScottK> No problem.
[14:27] <seele> hmm.. am i missing something else? that doesn't look right. it's just a regular notification with a close button
[14:27]  * seele gives up
[14:54] <apachelogger> seele: I would just install an ubuntu VM :D
[15:19] <apachelogger> ryanakca: btw, will we ever get a proper tour for kubunt.org?
[15:30] <Tonio_> hi there !
[15:31] <Riddell> resalut Tonio_
[15:31] <cbr> anybody else using screen with the new profiles stuff?
[15:35] <agateau> seele: the easiest way to try notify-osd is:
[15:35] <agateau> killall notification-daemon
[15:35] <agateau> /usr/lib/notify-osd/notify-osd
[15:35] <agateau> Then "notify-send <something>"
[15:43] <ScottK> seele: Based on Mark's reply to you on Ayatana, I guess KDE doesn't have a notification system.
[16:05] <seele> ScottK: heavens forbid anyone care about anything besides ubuntu
[16:09] <seele> agateau: ah, that worked. thanks
[16:21] <Mamarok> is there a way to convince Strigi to run in Jaunty? I can start nepomuk, but no way to get Strigi running
[16:22] <Riddell> must admit I've not tried
[16:22] <Riddell> tried strigi-client?
[16:23] <lex79> Mamarok: have you read? http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3102231.0
[16:24] <lex79> in my system Strigi works after that workaround
[16:26] <Mamarok> lex79: that's what I was doing, but I must have missed a step somewhere, sec
[16:29]  * ScottK notes on http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-karmic/ he seems to be the only one signed up for Kubuntu stuff.
[16:30] <Mamarok> lex79: well, now I could start Strigi, but I get an error message:
[16:31] <Mamarok> Failed to contact Strigi Indexer....
[16:32] <lex79> ignore it and try to restart the system
[16:32] <Mamarok> Could not get owner of name 'org.kde.nepomuk.services.nepomukstrigiservice': no such name
[16:32] <Mamarok> ok, restart the whole system or only KDE?
[16:32] <lex79> same here but strigi works :) try only kde
[16:33] <apachelogger> ScottK: you probably should mail the list with it
[16:33] <ScottK> If I cared enough, sure.
[16:33] <Mamarok> hm, that's actually another bug in Jaunty: I can't log out properly, have to go to a console and kill kdm
[16:34] <apachelogger> ScottK: man...
[16:35] <ScottK> Well currently if it wasn't for bad attitude, I'd have no attitude at all.
[16:38] <apachelogger> ScottK: you really need a time out
[16:38] <ScottK> Yeah, well I'm pretty sure that's what my conclusion will be after UDS.
[16:39] <apachelogger> I recommend taking one in any case, there is nothing like a good shift in perspective by getting as far away from everything as possible :)
[16:39] <Riddell> maybe I need to subscribe to specs I registered
[16:41]  * txwikinger_work wishes he finally finds some time again for kubuntu
[16:46] <Riddell> txwikinger_work: life in canada not as boring as in Birmingham?
[16:46] <txwikinger_work> Riddell: yes
[16:47] <txwikinger_work> and I have two jobs resulting in 12h per day work
[16:47] <Riddell> now why doesn't that surprise me
[16:48] <txwikinger_work> Riddell: You know Bham far too well, I guess
[16:55]  * txwikinger_work thinks about an ubuntuone plasmoid
[16:56] <seele> what does YMMV stand for in conversation?
[16:57] <Riddell> your milage may very
[16:58] <Riddell> roughly  "it should work this way, it has in my experience, but it might not quite when you try it"
[16:58] <Sput> seele: FYI, Quassel already speaks the Galago protocol (which should work with the old gNOme notification daemon as well as Ayatana) already if KDE integration is disabled
[16:59] <Sput> I think for 0.5 I'll explore that a bit more, as well as the new-style KDE systray, and allow it for KDE integration as well (optionally)
[17:00]  * seele tries to parse this email
[17:00] <seele> i still dont understand what mark is saying
[17:00] <seele> > 2) will notification display systems be interchangable in Karmic?
[17:00] <seele> >
[17:00] <seele> They are already interchangeable. YMMV, on Ubuntu we will only test with
[17:00] <seele> notify-osd.
[17:01] <Sput> seele: as I understand it, Atayana is another implementation of the Galago dbus protocol, so apps that that notify via dbus will work with it
[17:01] <Sput> from the app point of view, it doesn't matter what sits on the other end of the dbus bus
[17:02] <Sput> and that was slightly tautological now :)
[17:02] <seele> right, and assumingly kde notifications will plug into the ayatana thing
[17:02] <Sput> I'd doubt that
[17:02] <Sput> unless KDE agrees to use the Galago spec
[17:02] <Sput> which they don't, because it's too limited
[17:02] <Riddell> it's not far off as I understand it, it just needs galago to agree to use the KDE changes
[17:03] <Sput> yes, it's an extended galago API in the KDE namespace
[17:03] <Sput> apps that use knotify directly, however, would need knotify to plug into it. I would be surprised if KDE upstream decided to support that; however, certain distros might patch that in :)
[17:04] <seele> if/when galago agrees to use the kde changes, will ubuntu use that spec? i thought they made modifications to galago and so it would still be out of sync?
[17:04] <ScottK> Sput: Unfortunately the actions in your notifications won't be supported by notify-osd.
[17:04] <Sput> ScottK: well, the dbus interface supports actions, and Quassel offers an action
[17:04] <Sput> if the daemon doesn't display them, that's a different matter
[17:04] <ScottK> Sput: Yes, and it appears Canonical's position is that you should notice their implementation is incomplete and not offer them.
[17:05] <Sput> that is an interesting position :)
[17:05] <Sput> I'd need to figure out if they offer a capability value for that
[17:05] <ScottK> Considering 0.5 will support notifications with actions to move to another place in the app, that seems pretty invasive to me.
[17:05] <ScottK> They do.
[17:06] <Sput> we already use those for figuring out if HTML needs to be escaped or not
[17:06]  * ScottK wonders how long it will be before an upstream 'supports' this by just not doing notifications if there are no actions (your notification library doesn't meet our minumum requirements, so no notifications for you).
[17:07] <ScottK> That's spec compliant in exactly the same way notify-osd is.
[17:07] <Sput> for Quassel it's not a major change. the action is an additional feature that is treated exactly like a click on the bubble anyway
[17:07] <Sput> incidentally, we need the button only because KDE fails to handle bubble clicks properly :)
[17:07] <seele> so in order for kde notifications to use the notify-osd, kde needs to use the galago spec, otherwise the notifications will continue to appear the same way as they do now?
[17:07] <Sput> and as a visual hint that there's something to click on
[17:08] <ScottK> For Karmic I'm looking at providing both KDE'ified and non-KDE'ified versions.
[17:08] <Sput> seele: that's how I would understand it
[17:08] <ScottK> Right, but notify-osd doesn't support clicking on the bubble.
[17:08] <Sput> well, that's the distro's loss then
[17:08] <Sput> :/
[17:08]  * apachelogger ain't gonna accept any loss anymore
[17:08] <ScottK> Agreed.
[17:09] <seele> if kde does use the galago spec (or they get it updates, whatever) will you be able to choose to use notify-osd or notify-kde (whatever it is called)? because in theory all notifications should work perfectly fine regardless of the display
[17:09] <apachelogger> enough loss for the next 5 or 6 development cycles we had :P
[17:09] <seele> and when notify-osd is shipped with kubuntu karmic next fall, will we get an option somewhere so that users can select which way they want to handle notifications?
[17:09]  * seele should probably just ml this for everyone to comment on
[17:10] <Sput> afaik, KNotify actually already allows registering other clients. the new plasma systray, for example, plugs into it replacing the old-style bubbles
[17:10] <ScottK> seele: Mark seems pretty determined that actions are evil.
[17:10]  * Sput needs to run though
[17:11] <seele> ScottK: forget actions for the moment
[17:11] <seele> i'm asking if people will be able to switch to KDE-style notifications if they have the choice or not
[17:11] <seele> regardless if they have actions on them or not
[17:11] <apachelogger> depends on the implementation
[17:11] <seele> will upstream's experience be preserved
[17:11] <ScottK> seele: I think it's fundamental to the utliity of application notifications.
[17:11] <ScottK> seele: That's also a good question.
[17:12]  * Sput thinks that's a political issue - will kubuntu be allowed to not patch KNotify to be broken :)
[17:12] <apachelogger> ultimately notify-osd would be implemented via a plasma widget that binds to the appropriate dbus stuff and thus binds knotify to notify-osd
[17:12] <rickspencer3> seele: good discussion for UDS
[17:12] <ScottK> seele: I think that upstream KDE's notification experience is already very good and it would be a poor use of resources to make Kubuntu use something else.
[17:12] <apachelogger> so basically it will just have to eat knotify input and throw it out to notify-osd
[17:12] <rickspencer3> btw, in Ubuntu, we have a session that you can log in with that gives closer to default GNOME experience
[17:13] <ScottK> rickspencer3: In Kubuntu we don't need that and are generally happy for it.
[17:13] <rickspencer3> perhaps Kubuntu would want to have a system like that
[17:13] <Sput> ooh, optional crippling :D
[17:13] <Sput> anyway, I'm gone for now.
[17:13] <ScottK> See you later.
[17:14] <rickspencer3> It's not crippling, it's just choice for the few users who care about having more of a default GNOME experience
[17:15] <rickspencer3> seele: also, I think the KDE developer on the Dx team wants to figure out with sebas, etc... how best to proceed, so good discussion topic for UDS
[17:15] <txwikinger_work> GNOME experience on a KDE desktop?
[17:15] <apachelogger> rickspencer3: well, for GNOME it is not crippling, for KDE it might very well be since both the plasma notification as well as the knotification class itself leave the developer with a lot greater choice of what he wants the notification to look like
[17:15]  * txwikinger_work rather has a KDE experience
[17:16] <rickspencer3> but what I'm saying is, that you are assuming that it will be separate from KDE, and not part of KDE ... we don't know how they will end up working with upstream on it
[17:16] <seele> rickspencer3: also, is there any user research or testing planned for the notification system? there's an awful lot of design going on without any validation
[17:16] <rickspencer3> seele: yes
[17:16] <seele> now people are talking about finer details like delay length
[17:16] <rickspencer3> you should connect with ivanka in #ayatana
[17:16] <ScottK> rickspencer3: Is any of it going to be published?
[17:17] <rickspencer3> I only know that the next step in the plan is to have a discussion at UDS
[17:17] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I hope it is in fact discussion and not just disclosure of pre-ordained decisions.
[17:17] <rickspencer3> regarding notify-osd and KDE/Kubuntu
[17:17] <apachelogger> seele: IMHO that is also something the application developer should be deciding
[17:17] <apachelogger> depending on what the application spits out you might want longer or shorter delay
[17:18] <seele> apachelogger: yes, the responsibility could be put on the application developer because they are the domain expert. and hopefully know how long someone would want to see their app's message
[17:18] <rickspencer3> apachelogger: I believe it may be dynamic depending on text length, not sure thoguh
[17:18] <seele> but i think ubuntu is trying to "fix" all of the app notifications at once
[17:18]  * seele coughs *context*
[17:18] <apachelogger> seele: well, that is a quite good target for gnome :D
[17:18] <seele> when is karmic feature freeze?
[17:19] <apachelogger> rickspencer3: that is still too unprecise
[17:19] <rickspencer3> seele: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicReleaseSchedule
[17:19] <rickspencer3> apachelogger: could be
[17:19] <seele> thanks
[17:19] <apachelogger> also, by seting a general delay either depending on lenght or just use the same for everything
[17:19] <apachelogger> you prevent users from setting own delays
[17:19] <rickspencer3> I believe that is an empirical question and will let the user researchers test that out
[17:20] <ScottK> rickspencer3: If research is just going on now, it sounds like Karmic +1 would be a much more reasonable target for implementation.
[17:20] <rickspencer3> in my experience, application developers are too generous in how important they believe their apps are for users, so given the option, they'll always turn it up to 11
[17:21] <apachelogger> rickspencer3: those are issues that should be treated individually though
[17:21] <rickspencer3> apachelogger: perhaps
[17:21] <apachelogger> that is like... because arora got rendering problems with the oxygen style you enforce plastique because it works for arora and all other Qt applications
[17:21] <apachelogger> a bloody workaround IMHO :P
[17:22] <rickspencer3> I can say this:
[17:22] <seele> rickspencer3: kde peoples say that their galago messages have gone into a black hole. is there some other way they can work to update the spec?
[17:22] <rickspencer3> I believe that the KDE developers on Dx team really wants to work with the Kubuntu and KDE communities
[17:22] <ScottK> Right, but they are implementers, not designers.
[17:22] <apachelogger> seele: fd.o ... there just needs to be a discussion between gnome, kde and possibly distributions to establish a spec
[17:22] <ScottK> Most of the issues we are discussing are design issues.
[17:23] <rickspencer3> so I would advise engaging with a positive attitude and not harping on the past (that he wasn't part of anyway)
[17:23] <apachelogger> because the galago spec is no approved spec anyway
[17:23] <apachelogger> so fd.o could just use it as a starting point and create a real cross desktop notification spec
[17:23] <seele> apachelogger: the problem is the galago maintainer.. kde has been trying to communicate with him for a while for that exact reason
[17:24] <agateau> seele: our plan regarding galago and kde specs is to ensure notify-osd can handle both
[17:24] <apachelogger> seele: they don't need his approval to implement an fd.o spec
[17:24] <agateau> seele: and also work on fdo to achieve consensus on a unified spec
[17:24] <apachelogger> if he does not respond they should just go ahead and establish discussion between the affected parties and leave galago out of the loop
[17:25] <agateau> seele: notify-osd is going to be turned into a common library for all the desktop generic code
[17:25] <agateau> and two binaries: one for gnome and one for kde
[17:25] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I think if the disucssion is about what should be implemented for Kubuntu to improve the user experience for Kubuntu users we can move forward just fine.  I don't think discussions around replicating what was done for Ubuntu in Kubuntu will go well.
[17:25] <agateau> at the moment, we are experimenting with using plasma rendering for the kde binary
[17:25] <agateau> so it would follow plasma themes on kde
[17:26] <seele> agateau: there was a previous question about kde implementation and if notify-osd and knotify can cooexist so that users can switch between them
[17:26] <agateau> seele: yes I think they can coexist
[17:26] <agateau> right now knotify works like this:
[17:26]  * txwikinger_work gets an headache
[17:26] <apachelogger> they are not doing the same thing anyway?
[17:26] <txwikinger_work> co-exists means more resource wastage?
[17:26] <ScottK> I don't think the notify-osd notifications look at all good in a KDE environment.
[17:26] <apachelogger> knotify is not only about visible notification
[17:27] <ScottK> txwikinger_work: Not necessarily.
[17:27] <apachelogger> it's also doing sound and log and actions and whatnot
[17:27] <agateau> seele: if there is someone listening on org.kde.VisualNotification dbus, send it to it
[17:27] <txwikinger_work> ScottK: ok ;)
[17:27] <agateau> seele: otherwise show an old school passive ugly popup
[17:27] <agateau> seele: right now plasma systray provides an implementation of org.kde.VisualNotification
[17:28] <agateau> seele: which shows plasma notifications
[17:28] <seele> right
[17:28] <agateau> seele: if you disable this (there is an option in the plasma systray dialog)
[17:28] <agateau> you fallback to old school popup
[17:28] <agateau> the idea is to make it possible to switch between plasma notifications and notify-osd notifications
[17:29] <agateau> at run time
[17:29] <seele> ok
[17:29] <agateau> at least that's my idea, given the constraint I have
[17:29] <agateau> seele: will you be at uds?
[17:29] <seele> agateau: no
[17:29] <rickspencer3> seele: you'll be able to call in though right?
[17:29] <agateau> too bad :/
[17:30] <seele> rickspencer3: hopefully for most of the sessions unless i get meetins scheduled
[17:30] <rickspencer3> it would be good if we can get you connected, at least for that discussion
[17:30] <rickspencer3> I can change the schedule around if needed to ensure there are no conflicts for you
[17:31] <agateau> to avoid confusions: knotify won't be affected by notify-osd
[17:31] <seele> it looks like i might have a meeting on tuesday morning (EST), but it is a phone call and hopefully wont run into the first kubuntu session
[17:31] <agateau> you will still have the classic kde notification configuration system
[17:31] <seele> will that notification system control notifications for notify-osd?
[17:31] <agateau> with ability to play sound and other actions
[17:32] <txwikinger_work> yeah... and speech synthesis
[17:32] <seele> e.g. turn them off or add a sound, etc.
[17:32] <agateau> what will happen is that when knotify wants to show a visual notification, notify-osd will do it
[17:32] <seele> ok
[17:32] <apachelogger> seele: take a look at the notifications module in systemsettings
[17:32] <apachelogger> everything you can control there is knotify
[17:32] <seele> yes, i'm familiar with it
[17:32] <apachelogger> notify-osd would just replace what plasma is doing :)
[17:34] <ScottK> agateau: I guess I don't see the point in switching to a different system.  I think it would be better to make improvements in what we have now.
[17:35] <agateau> ScottK: that is not a decision i can take :/
[17:35] <ScottK> I understand.
[17:36] <ScottK> If that decision has been taken it would be useful to know.
[17:36] <agateau> I tried to lobby for using/extending plasma notification system, but failed
[17:37] <agateau> Now I am going to concentrate on making notify-osd on kde rocks as much as possible
[17:37] <agateau> (or suck as less as possible, depending on your pov)
[17:38] <ScottK> Well traditionally Kubuntu Council would take such a decision for Kubuntu.
[17:38] <ScottK> If that's been overturned, I think it should be said.
[17:39] <apachelogger> sabdfl: ^
[17:39] <agateau> I am not very aware of the way things are decided atm
[17:39] <agateau> that's just how I understand things
[17:39] <ScottK> Of course.
[17:39] <ScottK> Maybe rickspencer3 knows.
[17:40] <rickspencer3> I'm in a meeting now, I'll ping you back soon
[17:44] <rickspencer3> back for a moment
[17:44] <rickspencer3> so "who decides"?
[17:44] <rickspencer3> I don't think anything has really changed
[17:45] <rickspencer3> I expect the Kubuntu Council is still the governing body for Kubuntu
[17:45] <rickspencer3> that said, I would recommend striving to be easy to work with and thoughtful about the needs of *all* stakeholders
[17:48] <Nightrose> can someone summarize what the new system would improve (for varying meanings of improve) for us? so far I have heard about taking away actions from notifications
[17:48] <Nightrose> is there anything else at the moment?
[17:49] <ScottK> There is making the systray smaller at the expense of making some apps harder to get to via systray icons
[17:50] <Nightrose> i see
[17:51] <agateau> - avoid notification flood
[17:51] <agateau> (notifications are queued)
[17:51] <Nightrose> done in plasma as well in 4.3 right?
[17:51] <agateau> - nice feedback for kmix volume
[17:51] <ScottK> agateau: Doesn't Knotification in 4.3 have that?
[17:51] <Nightrose> maybe different
[17:52]  * txwikinger_work thought so
[17:52] <agateau> - nice feedback for powerdevil brightness
[17:52] <agateau> ScottK: possible yes
[17:52] <agateau> - click through (not everyone likes this one i guess)
[17:53] <txwikinger_work> is there a notification log?
[17:53] <agateau> txwikinger: yes, in knotify
[17:53] <agateau> this does not change
[17:53] <ScottK> agateau: That's also the 'feature' that makes it so that the thing you do to hold the notification from going away (click) also makes it harder to read (transparent)
[17:53] <agateau> and there is also ~/.cache/notify-osd
[17:53] <agateau> ScottK: not sure what you mean
[17:54] <ScottK> Actually I'm wrong on that.
[17:54] <ScottK> Just checked it again.
 at the moment, we are experimenting with using plasma rendering for the kde binary
[17:54] <sebas> Which binary is that?
[17:55] <ScottK> Actually there is no way to keep the notification from going away with notify-osd.
[17:55] <agateau> sebas: notify-osd will be split into a library and two binaries, one for gnome and the other for kde
[17:55] <sebas> Uhm, and the binary does ... ?
[17:55] <agateau> the work :)
[17:55] <agateau> right now, notify-osd is a binary
[17:55] <ScottK> agateau: I think it would be very nice if such a binary gave users of non-KDE apps in a KDE session a native feeling experience with their notifications.
[17:55] <agateau> which is started when someone talks to org.freedesktop.Notifications
[17:56]  * sebas would think that a Plasma applet would do the work, in fact I think that a plasma applet *does* the work right now
[17:56] <sebas> namely the systray
[17:56] <ScottK> +1
[17:56] <sebas> So you're saying you install a separate binary to do notifications?
[17:56] <agateau> yes
[17:56] <sebas> Why not get the system tray (which really is the notification thing) do that work?
[17:56] <agateau> ScottK: yes, non kde apps will show their notification the same way kde apps do
[17:57] <sebas> That's how we're implementing it right now
[17:57] <agateau> what would we gain doing it this way?
[17:57] <sebas> - No separate implementation from upstream for once
[17:58] <sebas> - no separate process running
[17:58] <sebas> - standard implementation that does it right
[17:58] <sebas> - sharing of developer resources
[17:58] <sebas> - feedback from all the people who test KDE
[17:58] <sebas> - open process, more likely to be merged upstream
[17:58] <agateau> sebas: as i said earlier, i tried to lobby for using plasma notification rendering on kde, but failed :/
[17:58] <sebas> - saving of resources both upstream and downstream
[17:59] <sebas> - no diverging message to app developers
[17:59] <agateau> so i am left with ensuring notify-osd does not look completly alien on a kde desktop
[17:59] <ScottK> agateau: That's within Ayatana (I gather).  Kubuntu may have a differing view.
[17:59] <sebas> agateau: I'm not blaming you, I'm just wondering about the people who take this kind of decision
[17:59] <sebas> It's not like we didn't go over these issues a couple of times
[17:59] <agateau> ScottK: yes
[17:59] <apachelogger> sebas: ubuntu technical board I suppose
[18:00] <Nightrose> *sigh*
[18:00] <sebas> That's ... sad.
[18:00] <ScottK> apachelogger: Nope.
[18:00] <agateau> sebas: will you be at uds?
[18:00] <sebas> Yes
[18:00] <apachelogger> ScottK: so, who is?
[18:00] <agateau> this would be the right place to try to convince people about doing it this way
[18:00] <sebas> I've added a systray / notificationarea to the proposed schedule wiki thing
[18:00] <ScottK> The Ayatana project without reference to Kubuntu or Ubuntu.
[18:00] <apachelogger> well
[18:00] <apachelogger> we don't have to use ayatana :P
[18:01] <ScottK> I agree.
[18:01] <Nightrose> well that's the question
[18:01] <Nightrose> do we?
[18:01] <ScottK> I'm expecting we'll get told different and that's why I expect to quit after UDS.
[18:01] <ScottK> I do hope that's not the case.
[18:01] <Nightrose> that's not acceptable
[18:01] <Nightrose> ;-)
[18:01] <apachelogger> well
[18:02] <txwikinger_work> using ayatana or ScottK quitting?
[18:02] <sebas> agateau: I feared this much, though I had hoped that people learnt from the mess they now have with GNOME to do it right this time around and not create a fork
[18:02] <Nightrose> txwikinger: ScottK quitting
[18:02]  * txwikinger_work agrees
[18:02] <sebas> And that's exactly what I've been talking about with rickspencer3, jono a while ago during a conf call
[18:02] <sebas> Then now I see it happened this exact same way is discouraging
[18:03]  * Nightrose notes that sebas is not the only one in that situation
[18:03] <sebas> That's true, makes it even more sad
[18:03] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[18:03] <Nightrose> hmm
[18:04] <sebas> It's a lot like "Can we hear your opinion please, it should sound like this: ...., if it doesn't we'll silently ignore it"
[18:04] <agateau> sebas: I am not that good at convincing people, but I'll support you if you try to convince others about this way of working
[18:04] <sebas> agateau: I'm not out to convince anybody, really. I'm just damn sure it won't go into plasma this way, because it's broken in three ways:
[18:05] <sebas> - technically: a separate binary ... oh come on
[18:05] <sebas> - development behind close doors
[18:05] <agateau> i mean: convincing canonical to go the plasma way
[18:05] <sebas> - no obvious feedback from the community and we'll have our implementation by that time
[18:05] <sebas> I know
[18:06] <Nightrose> sebas: well there was feedback from the community specifically by you and seele no?
[18:06] <agateau> i do not believe people aim at integrating this work with plasma :/ but at least it should not require patching it
[18:06] <sebas> Nightrose: yes, very specifically, and from aseigo as well
[18:06] <agateau> and users should be able to choose between both solutions
[18:06]  * txwikinger_work wonders if anyone knows who has what decided anyway
[18:06] <sebas> And we all told the same story
[18:07] <apachelogger> txwikinger_work: we don't
[18:07]  * sebas doesn't decide this kind of stuff btw, I *do* advise how to work with the community
[18:07] <agateau> txwikinger: i would say canonical design team decided
[18:07] <sebas> And it's ... slightly different than how things are going
[18:07] <agateau> design team != dx team
[18:07] <ScottK> agateau: I think the convincing is rather the other way around.  Ayatana/Canonical needs to either convince the Kubuntu community (represented by the KC) they want this or Canonical will have to choose between overthrowing the Kubuntu governance model or not having Ayatana products in Kubuntu.
[18:08] <apachelogger> if so, they probably decided before KDE input
[18:08] <rickspencer3> jeez you guys
[18:08] <apachelogger> lol
[18:08]  * txwikinger_work did not know there was a canonical design team
[18:08] <sebas> Well, it would certainly help if the kubuntu council said "we'll go with the upstream implementation"
[18:08] <agateau> ScottK: the thing is: now that canonical is funding people to develop kde stuff, they probably want to have more control on kubuntu
[18:08] <rickspencer3> but nothing has really been discussed yet, right?
[18:09] <ScottK> agateau: If they do it that way they will lose community developers.
[18:09] <agateau> ScottK: yes, i guess so
[18:09] <ScottK> rickspencer3: But apparetly it's already decided.
[18:09] <rickspencer3> I thought that it would be after the discussion at UDS before the council will decide anything
[18:09] <Nightrose> rickspencer3: yes nothing decided by the council yet
[18:10] <sebas> rickspencer3: I understand there are implementation plans already?
[18:10] <rickspencer3> sebas: sure, who wouldn't think about how to implement something before discussing it?
[18:10] <sebas> details like "separate binary" sounds like a very detailed plan
[18:10] <rickspencer3> the next real step is to discuss openly at UDS about how to proceed
[18:10] <sebas> That's cool, and I'm all ears
[18:10] <rickspencer3> *if* to proceed
[18:11] <rickspencer3> great
[18:11] <agateau> sebas: the "separate binary" plan is not a new plan, it just is how it's going on with notify-osd
[18:11] <rickspencer3> in the meantime, whenever I enter a discussion here, the conversation turns so negative that I am hesitant to continue engaging
[18:11] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I think that's the right answer.
[18:11] <agateau> in the current implementation
[18:11] <Nightrose> rickspencer3: it comes from not being listed to I think :/  or not noticably being listened to
[18:11] <ScottK> rickspencer3: It only goes negative after people start talking about decisions already taken.  I'd look in that direction for the root cause of the problem.
[18:12] <sebas> alright, because we solved this with a lightweight kded module, no bindary needed at all
[18:12] <rickspencer3> perhaps
[18:12] <rickspencer3> but whatever the case, let's look forward
[18:12] <rickspencer3> the Dx team really wants to engage constructively in Karmic
[18:13] <sebas> rickspencer3: It would be really cool if you guys looked at what we've in KDE 4.3, and get us a couple of things that you'd like to see improved
[18:13] <rickspencer3> so let's give them the benefit of the doubt and work together in a positive way
[18:13] <sebas> Then we can work off of an existing implementation and test along the way
[18:13] <rickspencer3> sebas: who's "you guys" per se?
[18:13] <sebas> the Plasma team
[18:13] <sebas> Basically, what's in trunk right now and in beta1 tomorrow
[18:13] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[18:14] <rickspencer3> interesting approach
[18:14] <sebas> It also contains jobs and such, so it's quite a differnet paradigm altogether
[18:14] <txwikinger_work> I don't see anybody not trying to work positively here
[18:14] <agateau> sebas: the thing is: design team is dead set on this no-action choice, and plasma team is probably dead-set on supporting actions
[18:14] <sebas> I can pass this feedback on then, and we see how we can make it smooth
[18:14] <sebas> agateau: still, that's only a detail of the whole thing
[18:15] <sebas> If you look at the new systray, it's all waaaaaay beyond that
[18:15] <rickspencer3> yeah, I think that at UDS it would be good if the Kubuntu/KDE team went in with the goal of educating the Dx guys about where KDE is going relative to where the #ayatana project thinks desktops need design love
[18:15] <ScottK> rickspencer3 and agateau: I didn't get a chance to write the ayatana list yet, but neon is building KDE trunk to run on Jaunty now if people want to try it out.
[18:15] <txwikinger_work> constructive criticism cannot be just pushed away by claiming it is negative
[18:15] <ScottK> Thanks to apachelogger for that.
[18:15] <agateau> ScottK: nice!
[18:15] <rickspencer3> txwikinger_work: I'm just telling you how I feel
[18:15] <rickspencer3> and I'm not particular involved
[18:15] <ScottK> So there's a easy way to try out what sebas is suggesting.
[18:16] <rickspencer3> however, I am a good avenue for you guys to build bridges, and also channel resources to help you achieve your goals
[18:16] <sebas> bbiam
[18:16] <txwikinger_work> well.. I feel like being criticized for something I am not even doing
[18:16] <rickspencer3> ScottK: yeah
[18:16] <agateau> ScottK: by night I am a KDE developer, who builds trunk regularly :)
[18:16] <rickspencer3> txwikinger_work: I don't think I was directing my feedback to you, sorry about that
[18:16] <ScottK> agateau: Yes, but many of your compatriots aren't
[18:16] <agateau> oh but you meant for other members, probably
[18:16] <agateau> ok
[18:17] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I'd like to note that the Kubuntu community provides this service and specifically worked to get it going sooner to aid with working with Ayatana.
[18:17] <rickspencer3> agateau: would be interesting to help the wider ubuntu commununity understand #ayatana goals through the lens of what KDE is doing and trying to do
[18:17] <ScottK> It's not all negative.
[18:17] <rickspencer3> ScottK: I didn't say it was *all* negative, but please don't be resistant to my feedback
[18:17]  * apachelogger worked night shifts too get neon going :D
[18:17] <agateau> rickspencer3: sorry i don't get what you mean
[18:18] <rickspencer3> I really want to help, believe it or not
[18:18] <ScottK> rickspencer3: I've never seen negativity that didn't seem to me to be a reasonable response to lack of communication and working together from Ayatana.  I am (believe it or not) open to seeing it be different.
[18:19] <rickspencer3> agateau: I think one disconnect is that the ubuntu community is overwhelming GNOME users, so when we discuss ayatana, we see it through a GNOME lens
[18:19] <rickspencer3> I think someone structuring a view through the KDE lens would be useful
[18:19] <sebas> What is ayatana?
[18:19] <agateau> rickspencer3: ok
[18:20] <ScottK> sebas: That's the new name for Canonical's desktop experience people.
[18:20] <ScottK> err design team too
[18:20] <txwikinger_work> rofl
[18:20] <rickspencer3> sebas: ayatana is the umbrella project for the effort to make the Linux desktop experience the best (better than Mac, etc...)
[18:20]  * apachelogger finds Windows 7's UX better than Mac's TBH
[18:21] <agateau> sebas: https://launchpad.net/ayatana
[18:21] <rickspencer3> sebas: http://www.jonobacon.org/2009/04/22/ayatana/
[18:21] <apachelogger> !ayatana
[18:21]  * txwikinger_work wishes the kernel and xorg would be fixed asap.. that would enhance my desktop experience sigh
[18:21] <apachelogger> tsimpson: that is a bug
[18:21] <agateau> have to go
[18:21] <agateau> bye
[18:21]  * apachelogger hands agateau a cookie for the way and waves
[18:21] <rickspencer3> bye agateau
[18:21]  * agateau eats the cookie, thanks!
[18:22] <sebas> rickspencer3: thinking in terms of "The Linux Desktop" means that there's a common deminator
[18:22] <rickspencer3> sebas: I dunno
[18:22] <sebas> which is true technically (same base system), but doesn't make sense from a UI point of view
[18:22] <rickspencer3> again, I dunno
[18:22] <rickspencer3> I think #ayatana will get much better discussion on that
[18:23] <rickspencer3> it's really at the very beginnings, so not sure where it will go
[18:23] <sebas> rickspencer3: ok, feedback about the current system, and how it relates to Canonical's design vision would be welcome
[18:24] <rickspencer3> sebas: ack
[18:24] <sebas> tomorrow, kde 4.3 beta1 will come out
[18:24] <rickspencer3> I think, though, it would be helpful to structure that
[18:24] <rickspencer3> as KDE is not the native way that most of us think
[18:24] <sebas> it has the start of the new systray implementation, jobs merged into the systray (similar to notifications acutally) and does the notifications through knotify
[18:25] <rickspencer3> I used Kubuntu for a week during the beta of Jaunty, and wouldn't be able to give much feedback beyond the "learnability" of it
[18:25] <sebas> And we're working on those parts, it would be good to do it together since nobody is helped with two different sytems in parallel
[18:25] <rickspencer3> I think it would be interesting to see where the ayatana folks see notifications and such going, and comparing that to where KDE sees it going
[18:25] <sebas> indeed
[18:25] <rickspencer3> there's probably much more common ground, at least from a Ux pOV
[18:26] <sebas> yet everybody gets hung up on the "no actions" thing
[18:26]  * rickspencer3 nods
[18:26] <sebas> Which is one of those points where the visions are different, but not the only one that's relevant
[18:26] <rickspencer3> I also think we have to figure out how to reach out the ayatana folks in a way that they understand
[18:26] <rickspencer3> as KDE is not their "language" so to speak
[18:27] <txwikinger_work> who is they?
[18:27] <rickspencer3> txwikinger_work: I think of the ayatana folks as the desing/user research team + the Dx team
[18:27] <sebas> I was a bit concerned when jono said that he thinks it's OK if Canonical does this kind of design work behind closed doors to be honest
[18:27] <rickspencer3> Dx = development team that creates new code
[18:27] <rickspencer3> sebas: hmmm
[18:28] <rickspencer3> I think *some* of it is behind closed doors because it is for partners
[18:28] <rickspencer3> but the design team wants to work open but:
[18:28] <rickspencer3> 1. they don't know how
[18:28] <rickspencer3> 2. they have a hard time parsing input
[18:28] <rickspencer3> so starting with the ayatana list and channel was a big step for them
[18:29] <sebas> Did seele ever get feedback about her points on the actions?
[18:29] <ScottK> rickspencer3: My perception of that list so far is that they are not open to anything other than more of what they've already done.
[18:29] <sebas> Those were pretty solid points to me, and a pretty good basis to improve upon
[18:29] <rickspencer3> she did get feedback, from both mpt and from me
[18:29] <rickspencer3> when she first wrote the email
[18:30] <ScottK> seele: ^^?
[18:30] <rickspencer3> also, it changed the design team approached the whole problem
[18:30] <rickspencer3> they started thinking about how the desktop as a whole notifies users
[18:31] <sebas> http://weblog.obso1337.org/2009/response-to-the-proposed-canonical-notification-system/ this is a pretty excellent read
[18:31] <rickspencer3> yeah
[18:31] <rickspencer3> seele wrote that after sending it as email
[18:32] <sebas> Aight :)
[18:32] <rickspencer3> that's pretty old now, it would be interesting to revisit it now that we have real user feedback, for GNOME at least
[18:33] <rickspencer3> that lack of actions has gotten no complaints, the main thing is that people with a lot of buddies hate getting bugged whenever a buddy logs on or off
[18:33] <apachelogger> that would be configurable in KDE anyway
[18:33] <sebas> That's a configuration issue IMO
[18:33] <sebas> Heh, right :-)
[18:34] <rickspencer3> yeah
[18:34] <rickspencer3> I don't mind, since I don't use IM  anymore ;)
[18:34] <apachelogger> ScottK: is there actually any work going on for beta1?
[18:34] <apachelogger> or are the merges not finished yet?
[18:34]  * sebas just started to user jabber, didn't use IM for a long time
[18:34] <ScottK> rickspencer3: Did you read laserjock's message on the ayatana list about removing the indicator applet?
[18:35] <rickspencer3> ScottK: nope
[18:35] <ScottK> OK.  He makes a pretty good case for the provided alternative to actions being substandard.
[18:35] <sebas> i'd welcome a button to send me to the right channel in quassel though when someone highlights me ... are you reading this Sput? :)
[18:35] <ScottK> sebas: Quassel already has that.
[18:35] <Riddell> apachelogger: I've been concentrating on just getting the merges compiled and installable, but I have kde4libs done for beta 1 and I'll probably put that in a PPA shortly and start on the other base ones
[18:36] <sebas> I should update it then
[18:36]  * apachelogger notes that sebas should be following ScottK's blog more closely ;-)
[18:36] <sebas> apachelogger: or git pull once in a while :P
[18:36] <apachelogger> Riddell: ok
[18:36] <ScottK> sebas: You'll need a git version to get it.  Either trunk or the 0.4 branch.
[18:36] <Nightrose> JontheEchidna: any luck with figuring out the amarok 2.1 beta 2 crash?
[18:37] <apachelogger> Riddell: btw, we should have a centralized ninja work flow for the next release
[18:37] <apachelogger> got the important parts already coded
[18:38] <a|wen> Nightrose: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/PlasmaWidgetNetworkManager/0.0+svn966653-0ubuntu1~ppa1 <-- ready for your test results :)
[18:38]  * sebas loves quassel devs for being faster than I can make up features for them :)
[18:38] <nixternal> argh, I decide to not go to UDS and sebas will be there...dangit, I picked the wrong one to miss :)
[18:38] <Nightrose> a|wen: hope to have a chance to test it at university tomorrow - no wifi here
[18:38] <sebas> nixternal: :(
[18:39] <sebas> nixternal: coming to Akademy?
[18:39] <ScottK> sebas: Also if you miss the action if you click on the systray icon it'll take you to the channel for the last notification.
[18:39] <apachelogger> a|wen: you should promote it a bit more
[18:39] <nixternal> unfortunately not...next year I will definitely be there
[18:39] <apachelogger> a|wen: blogs, dents and possibly poke various people etc.
[18:39] <nixternal> gotta get a job again, I am going nuts without one
[18:39] <ScottK> nixternal: What happened to the last one?
[18:39]  * ScottK must have missed something.
[18:39] <nixternal> they don't know how to make money
[18:39] <a|wen> apachelogger: well, go blog :)
[18:40] <ScottK> nixternal: Ah.  That'll do it.
[18:40] <nixternal> and if you don't make money, you can't pay your employees
[18:40] <apachelogger> a|wen: I got a date in 20 minutes and then I will be working til saturday
[18:40] <ScottK> And employees, oddly enough, expect htat.
[18:40] <ScottK> htat/that
[18:40] <nixternal> a friend wants me to move out to cali and work on setting up a system for them based off of the system I helped create...that would mean 18 hour days, and being to far away from my daughter
[18:40] <a|wen> apachelogger: loads of time ;)
[18:40] <apachelogger> unfortunately not
[18:41] <apachelogger> maybe I get to it
[18:41] <apachelogger> a|wen: get yourself a blog :P
[18:41] <nixternal> though I guess 18 hour days aren't that bad...I put that much into Kubuntu, KDE, and other stuff I am working on
[18:41] <a|wen> apachelogger: on the todo ... but feels so stupid getting a blog right now; and then being completely away for 3 weeks...
[18:42] <nixternal> here is an idea, lets get rid of notifications all together, give everyone just tty1-6 :p
[18:42] <apachelogger> doens't matter :P
[18:42] <apachelogger> a|wen: why are you away for 3 weeks?
[18:42]  * sebas pleads for modal full screen notifications that need to be dismissed by typing a 256bit hex key into a password field
[18:43] <a|wen> travelling around thailand, before moving back to europe again
[18:43] <apachelogger> uh nice
[18:43] <nixternal> sebas: omg, why didn't I think of that
[18:43] <apachelogger> a|wen: at least you will be back in time for next KDE release ;-)
[18:44] <a|wen> apachelogger: of course ... i'll be back in due time for feature freeze and all :)
[18:44] <txwikinger_work> ScottK.. well the mortgage company oddly expects that too
[18:44] <txwikinger_work> and the supermarket
[18:44] <apachelogger> a|wen: you might have noticed that I don't care too much about freeze :P
[18:45] <a|wen> apachelogger: i think you're not alone there ;)
[18:45] <apachelogger> it's all made up so that the foundation devs can fix the stuff they broke before freeze :P
[18:46] <apachelogger> anyway, gotta run
[18:47] <apachelogger> homework for today: everyone think about how we best go about adopting an artist
[18:47] <a|wen> cy apachelogger
[18:49] <nixternal> ScottK: I don't think anything regarding notifications will get pushed upon us, we in the Kubuntu Council need to bring it up for discussion. I feel we do need to work with ayatana, keep an open mind....I think ayatana needs to work with us, but at the same time we should try to work with them
[18:49] <nixternal> i think you guys will do good at UDS, and you won't be leaving either!
[18:50] <nixternal> I am with you though on a Karmic+1 implementation, especially if they are *researching* still
[18:51] <ScottK> nixternal: I hope you are right.  So far I don't think I've seen any proposals I think are suitable for Kubuntu (but keeping an open mind for something different)
[18:51] <ghostcube> hello humans :)
[18:52]  * ScottK looks around
[18:52] <nixternal> ScottK: right
[18:52] <nixternal> hopefully that will change at UDS
[18:52] <ghostcube> will openoffice be in german soon ? the updates only contain english versions of the language :)
[18:53] <nixternal> Here is an interesting question: If it isn't accepted by KDE, should Kubuntu accept it? I saw a lot of "we look through the glasses of GNOME when researching and thinking" and I don't think those glasses work with KDE. I think we need to look through the glasses of fd.o, collective glasses, like 3D glasses!!!
[18:53] <nixternal> yes!!!
[18:54] <nixternal> GNOME can have the red side of the glasses, we will take the blue side!
[18:55] <nixternal> heh, I find it funny that everyone thinks KDE as blue, but isn't a default GNOME install blue as well?
[18:55] <txwikinger_work> ghostcube: I think you are in the wrong channel ;)
[18:56] <ghostcube> nah
[18:56] <ghostcube> :|
[18:56] <ghostcube> the ppa openoffice is made by apacheloggeror ?
[18:56] <seele> jeez.. i go away for an hour and shit hits the fan..
[18:56] <nixternal> hahaha
[18:56]  * seele reads backlog, brb
[18:56] <nixternal> seele: don't you love it!
[18:56] <nixternal> seele: good luck, took me a while to read it
[18:56] <rickspencer3> seele: don't, you've read it all before ;)
[18:56] <nixternal> rofl
[18:57] <nixternal> rickspencer3: so true!
[18:57]  * txwikinger_work is tired of all the power politics re Gnome/KDE
[18:57] <ghostcube> txwikinger_work: just to know if the deb will be there soon inside the ppa
[18:57] <ghostcube> :)
[18:58] <txwikinger_work> I find it refreshing that we have more than one way of doing things in contrast to most other OSs
[18:59] <ghostcube> maybe we should merge kde and gnome
[18:59]  * ghostcube hides and runs fast
[19:00]  * claydoh chucks his old, dead monitor @ ghostcube
[19:00] <ghostcube> :D
[19:01] <txwikinger_work> well... the only result would be the emigration of the KDE community to some other distro
[19:01] <ghostcube> merge != use gnome with kde == let gnome go to whereever they want and keep kde
[19:01] <txwikinger_work> If this is your goal, run with it, I don't think anybody here considers it though
[19:02] <nixternal> step back take a breath...for the longest time people complained that Canonical didn't care about Kubuntu/KDE, and now they want to include us in their Dx/Ayatana stuff...we should be happy, even if we don't agree with the decisions right now, we can hopefully still help mold those decisions
[19:03] <ghostcube> txwikinger_work: heh iam using kde since 3.0 so i think i wont have the goal to mix with gnome
[19:03] <nixternal> if it isn't one thing it is the other
[19:03] <ghostcube> hahaha
[19:03] <claydoh> nixternal: +1
[19:03] <nixternal> damnit, if you are down in the dumps, a bit depressed, or sad...country music isn't good stuff to listen to...
[19:03]  * nixternal hurry ups and fast forwards in Amarok
[19:04] <ghostcube> yeah try minimal elektro
[19:04] <ghostcube> better in bad moods
[19:04] <ghostcube> :D
[19:04]  * claydoh is a snob, don't touch gnome or country music ;)
[19:04] <nixternal> hahaha
[19:04] <nixternal> I like everything
[19:04] <seele> nixternal: dear god.. FINALLY done reading
[19:05]  * seele gets out her notes
[19:05] <nixternal> seele: told you
[19:05] <neversfelde> mhh, this was not a good packaging weekend for me :)
[19:05] <seele> sebas: i would like to preserve the upstream experience as much as i have the power to. my ideal situation would to keep upstream experience as default but provide the option to switch to canonical's, but i have a feeling it will be the other way around
[19:05] <nixternal> I am picturing the notify-osd with the slim glow plasma theme though, that would be hotness
[19:06] <seele> note about the new plasma systray: one of the benefits of the new systray is that it organizes services/jobs into more logical contexts. this could be a way of classifying different types of notification behaviors together
[19:07] <seele> rick's "base desktop system"/ayatana comment: kde has identified several different "experiences" which will inevitably result in completely different kde desktop configurations. it's not a goal to design uniformly for all of them, but to specialise each one so it maximizes their potential
[19:08] <nixternal> I will admit I am not a fan of the stacking...for instance with choqok, even if I set my feeds to be updated every minute, every minute I will get 10 to 25 easily from twitter and identi.ca
[19:08] <nixternal> I ended up shutting off notifications, as I really don't use them anyways
[19:08] <seele> this is a fundamental difference between kde and gnome. gnome insists on universal usability and designing to the median where kde wants to maximize potential. in the past kde is guilty of featuritis, but i think kde4 is an excellent example of working towards functional usability rather than crippling the user with no options
[19:09] <seele> regarding my first comments on notifications: i have been working more in the notification literature and will have another paper out in a few weeks which look at more empirical research regarding awareness, interruption, and notification systems
[19:10] <seele> regarding rick's comment about no complaints about no actions: that's not true, maybe you aren't reading enough blogs/forums. there have been a lot of comments from gnomies about the lack of actions, those comments are just selectively ignored. there is an example of this on the ayatana mailing list where pitti (i think?) linked to a particular comment
[19:11] <seele> eof
[19:11] <seele> lol
[19:12] <nixternal> haha
[19:12] <TheInfinity> hello ... one prob. by supporting a guy in #kubuntu-de i got a strange bug which i also got in a vm installation. kpackagekit does not install meta packages and its dependencys. it just ignores them when i activate and apply them.
[19:12] <TheInfinity> this makes codec installation for newbs quite ... bad ;)
[19:13]  * txwikinger_work recognizes that nixternal is not a Southerner ;)
[19:15] <txwikinger_work> nixternal: I want to have the choqok notifications read to me instead of displayed ;)
[19:15] <nixternal> hahaha, lazy ass
[19:16] <TheInfinity> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kpackagekit/+bug/372256
[19:16] <TheInfinity> soeone else found this too
[19:16] <nixternal> apt-get can though :p
[19:17] <TheInfinity> nixternal: newbies dont apt-get anything ...
[19:17] <nixternal> they do if you teach them
[19:18] <TheInfinity> if they try to solve it alone such things happen: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/116915/
[19:18] <TheInfinity> (just got this src.list=
[19:19] <TheInfinity> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/packagekit/+bug/342671 <-- and it seems to be a bug since alpha6. so time for removing it, huh? :p
[19:19] <nixternal> wth? jounty
[19:20] <TheInfinity> ...
[19:20] <ScottK> seele: Will your paper be out before UDS?
[19:21] <TheInfinity> and i think i will photoshop something the next days for kubuntu default theme. it just looks awfull at 1920 x 1200
[19:21] <TheInfinity> -l
[19:22] <ScottK> nixternal: I'm in favor of increased investment in Kubuntu and KDE, but forking important pieces of KDE is not something I'm in favor of for Kubuntu.
[19:23] <nixternal> right
[19:23] <nixternal> we shouldn't be forking anything, there is way to much forking going on already
[19:23] <nixternal> forking just makes the final app a pos
[19:23] <txwikinger_work> my biggest problems with notifications is that they make my machine really slow
[19:24] <nixternal> like recycling plastic, you can only do it a few times before the plastic becomes useless
[19:24]  * txwikinger_work images all those waste dumps with old software in it :D
[19:24] <txwikinger_work> imagines
[19:25]  * txwikinger_work thinks about storing notifications in an relational database
[19:29]  * txwikinger_work tries to fork nixternal
[19:29] <txwikinger_work> it just doesn't work... nixternal is far too unique for something like that
[19:30] <nixternal> pfft, nixternal needs to work first before forking
[19:30] <nixternal> so fork you!
[19:30]  * txwikinger_work would like to fork himself
[19:31] <txwikinger_work> maybe I would have finally some time for some essential stuff aside of work
[19:31]  * ScottK hands txwikinger_work a fork and says go for it.
[19:31]  * txwikinger_work appreciates ScottK's support
[19:34] <Quintasan> grrr
[19:36] <Quintasan> Can someone explain to me why the hell numlock is not turned on at startup?
[19:37] <lex79> Quintasan: system settings -> keyboard & mouse
[19:38] <Quintasan> lex79: doesn't work
[19:38] <lex79> uh
[19:38] <lex79> :(
[19:43] <chakersito> hi! i have a problem with the update of KDE4.2.3
[19:43] <chakersito> when I run in the console a comand with _sudo_ I got this error
[19:43] <chakersito> Could not start ksmserver. Check yout installation
[19:43] <chakersito> and the KDM restart
[19:44] <chakersito> any idea what can I do to fix it?
[19:48] <Quintasan> hurr durr, can anyone tell me why dput doesn't want to upload orig.tar.gz to REVU? the debian revision number is 0 and it uploads everything except orig.tar.gz file :/
[19:49] <ScottK> Quintasan: Did you debuild -S -sa?
[19:49]  * ScottK guesses you did -S
[19:49] <Quintasan> ScottK: hmm, I don't remeber, let me try
[19:49] <Quintasan> I did -S -k$GPGKEY
[19:49] <Quintasan> :3
[19:49] <ScottK> That's why.  You need -sa
[19:51] <Quintasan> ScottK: It complains about missing GPG keys, I have exported GPGKEY variable but it didn't help
[19:51] <ScottK> Then add your -k to it
[19:52] <ScottK> So -S -sa -k$GPGKEY
[19:52] <Quintasan> oh, k thanks ScottK
[19:53] <yuriy> have people gotten room information and (if you used the agents) flight info/tickets for uds?
[19:55] <Quintasan> apachelogger: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?upid=5738
[19:57] <ScottK> Flight info yes, rooms no.
[19:57] <ScottK> yuriy: ^^
[20:01] <JontheEchidna> Nightrose: Haven't had much time, working on it now
[20:02] <Nightrose> JontheEchidna: thanks :)
[20:02] <Quintasan> apachelogger: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?upid=5739  <-- this one :P
[20:03] <Quintasan> JontheEchidna: ^ if you have a second
[20:12] <lex79> JontheEchidna: thanks, smack :)
[20:16] <maco> yuriy: same as ScottK
[20:18] <JontheEchidna> Quintasan: looks good on the whole, but I did find some minor things
[20:18] <JontheEchidna> (I commented on those on the revu page)
[20:19] <Quintasan> oh, so I dont need libplasma-dev? :D
[20:21] <JontheEchidna> Quintasan: not for Karmic :)
[20:21] <yuriy> ScottK: you got tickets? I haven't received anything since I approved them to book it
[20:21] <ScottK> I got an e-ticket
[20:21] <Quintasan> JontheEchidna: good, I have less things to remember, my memory is good, but short :P
[20:24] <yuriy> ScottK: huh, thanks, i don't think I have, i'll have to get in touch with them again
[20:32] <Quintasan> JontheEchidna: fixed, http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/plasma-widget-pgame :3
[20:45] <JontheEchidna> Quintasan: diffrent -> different
[20:45] <Quintasan> hmm
[20:45] <Quintasan> I really typed that -_-
[20:46] <JontheEchidna> that is minor enough that I could fix it and upload to ubuntu, though
[20:47] <JontheEchidna> ...after you get a second revu, of course
[20:47] <Quintasan> please do so :3
[20:47] <JontheEchidna> so you should probably update it after all
[20:47] <Quintasan> crap
[20:47]  * JontheEchidna is just used to doing second revus all the time
[20:47] <Quintasan> I accidentally my usb drive
[20:48] <JontheEchidna> the whole usb drive?
[20:48] <Quintasan> looks like
[20:48] <Quintasan> oh, It's alive
[20:51] <JontheEchidna> http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1221756086791fg6.jpg <- my fave
[20:53] <Quintasan> JontheEchidna: k, fixed :P
[20:53] <Quintasan> JontheEchidna: lol
[20:54] <JontheEchidna> Quintasan: it still has the 0ubuntu2 thing going on in debian/changelog
[20:55] <Quintasan> hmm I deleted it :/
[20:56] <Quintasan> http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/plasma-widget-pgame <-- this one
[20:57] <Quintasan> it looks right here
[21:01] <ScottK> apachelogger: Thanks for the mail.
[21:03] <Mamarok> apachelogger: subscribed to U one bug, sir!
[21:04]  * Quintasan hates when he can't finish what he started
[21:04] <jussi01> Wow, my bug seems to have really made people here vent :D
[21:04] <Quintasan> I think I need some sleep
[21:04] <Quintasan> Night Ladies and Gentleman
[21:05] <lex79> night ;)
[21:05] <ScottK> jussi01: Which bug?
[21:05] <Quintasan> apachelogger: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/plasma-widget-pgame
[21:05] <jussi01> bug 375415
[21:05] <ScottK> I suspect not since we don't even know what it is ....
[21:06] <jussi01> ScottK: anyway, the one about ubuntu one not having a kde client...
[21:06] <jussi01> ScottK: youd be suprised...
[21:06] <ScottK> jussi01: Just a bunch of spammers anyway.  I'd ignore them.
[21:06] <jussi01> hahah
[21:06] <ScottK> Not kidding about it being spam.
[21:08] <jussi01> ScottK: I dont mind the lack of a KDE client - I can deal with that - however, when the gnome client doesnt work _at all_ on kde, thats when I have an issue.
[21:08] <ryanakca> apachelogger: Hmmm... we should get to that. *jots it down on his eternally growing TODO list* ... it'll sadly get put off to next week or UDS... this week is insane homework-wise
[21:08] <ScottK> jussi01: Interesting.  KDE people to busy on notifications I guess.
[21:08] <nixternal> jussi01: why is it private?
[21:09] <jussi01> nixternal: all of the ubuntuone bugs start private afaik
[21:09] <ScottK> jussi01: You should be able to unprivate the bug.
[21:09] <nixternal> that's nice
[21:09] <jussi01> ScottK: actually it seems that my bug was marked a dupe of that one
[21:09] <ScottK> Ah
[21:13] <dtchen> ubuntuone raises some serious flags for me (as do most "cloud" things)
[21:15] <nixternal> dtchen: that's why don't put private stuff on the cloud
[21:15] <ScottK> dtchen: No kidding.  The class of "Stuff I really care about but don't care about security for" is probably close to nil.
[21:15] <dtchen> nixternal: it doesn't have anything to do with privacy but auditing.
[21:15] <nixternal> the only flag raised for me is out of the blue I get an invite for smething I had never heard of
[21:15] <nixternal> semantic auditing?
[21:16] <nixternal> social-semantic, the way of the desktop future?
[21:16] <jussi01> ok, that was... err... fun?
[21:17] <jussi01> I hit printscreen  and it was like the button was stuck down, not sure if it was hardware or software failure, but it brought up like 2000 printscreen windows...
[21:17]  * ScottK had that happen once.
[21:18] <Sput> sebas: :)
[21:21] <txwikinger_work> jussi01: does the ubuntu one client work on Gnome?
[21:22]  * txwikinger_work should maybe try that
[21:22] <jussi01> txwikinger_work: according to reports it does - I dont have gnome...
[21:22] <txwikinger_work> Well.. I have the Gnome desktop installed
[21:22] <ScottK> Sput: I want a feature to be marked away when I close the lid on my laptop.
[21:22] <txwikinger_work> So I could try it
[21:23] <lex79> JontheEchidna: kipi-plugins FTBS in karmic pbuilder :( I think phonon related
[21:23] <txwikinger_work> ScottK: there is a flatscreen that watches if you sit in front of it... so you could extend it to being marked away when you are away
[21:23] <lex79> JontheEchidna: /tmp/buildd/kipi-plugins-0.3.0/advancedslideshow/listsounditems.h:36:25: error: Phonon/Global: No such file or directory
[21:23] <ScottK> txwikinger_work: Interesting.
[21:30] <JontheEchidna> lex79: It's being worked on
[21:33] <neversfelde> mhh, bilbo was rejected because of license problems and a lintian override. The app uses a modified version of libkblog and I did not split it out in an extra package, because it should not be a public lib. I asked in #ubuntu-motu and they told me to do it like this.
[21:33] <neversfelde> Now I asked upstream again, and they are talking with the libkblog team to backmerge their changes in libkblog
[21:34] <neversfelde> so I still think that there shouldn't be a libbilbokblog package?
[21:36] <lex79> JontheEchidna: fine, ok
[21:37] <nixternal> ScottK: good eyes there in -meeting :)
[21:37] <ScottK> nixternal: Yeah, I got lucky on that one.
[21:37] <nixternal> I saw his name and it didn't even dawn on me
[21:38] <ScottK> I can't imagine he thought it was going to work.
[21:38] <ScottK> But clearly he did.
[21:38] <nixternal> ya, even without you he wouldn't of got it I don't think
[21:38]  * txwikinger_work wonders why switch user or multiple user session isn't working in jaunty anymore
[21:39] <ScottK> I know some o f the board members were aware, so probably not.
[21:42] <nixternal> well even if he didn't do the things he did last year, his wiki and presence didn't warrant membership
[22:10] <Sput> ScottK: I think that'll have to wait until we have a dbus interface
[22:10] <Sput> in which case one could probably write up an acpi script for that :)
[22:19] <calc> so is kubuntu planning on following Debian in the dropping of KDE3 packages in the near term?
[22:22] <Mamarok> je te conseille de jeter un coup d'oeil au wiki ubuntu pour le déboguage du son
[22:22] <Mamarok> attends, je te trouve l'adresse
[22:23] <Mamarok> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoundTroubleshooting
[22:23] <Sput> mais oui!
[22:23] <nixternal> ScottK: heh, there is no way I would even know where to begin on working on OO.o + KDE4 stuff
[22:24] <Mamarok> oops, wrong channel :)
[22:24] <nixternal> jesus their vcs is one hell of a confusing mess to me
[22:24] <calc> nixternal: i think the main bit that needs support is for KDE4 file dialog
[22:24] <Sput> wait until you see their build system!
[22:25] <ScottK> nixternal: It might be easier just to start with their standard GTK stuff an make something new for KDE4.
[22:26] <nixternal> I can't even find the GTK stuff :) HAHAHA
[22:26] <calc> nixternal: its under fpicker
[22:26] <nixternal> if I could find that, then ya making KDE4 stuff would be easy
[22:26] <nixternal> ahh
[22:26] <calc> nixternal: at least for the file dialog
[22:26]  * nixternal looks there
[22:26] <calc> nixternal: the extracted and patched ubuntu source also has the fpicker for KDE
[22:26] <nixternal> i think there needs to be more than just file dialog though
[22:26] <calc> nixternal: its not part of Sun source
[22:26] <nixternal> gotcha
[22:27] <nixternal> oh, so port the kde fpicker to qt4/kde4 then
[22:27]  * nixternal apt-get sources
[22:27] <calc> nixternal: you can probably find all the kde specific bits fairly easily, i think it only does file picker and a few other minor bits, it doesn't even have a print dialog for KDE
[22:27] <calc> nixternal: yea
[22:28] <calc> getting full KDE integration would be awesome but even with KDE3 we currently don't have that with OOo
[22:28] <nixternal> the oo.o-kde package I am taking it
[22:28] <calc> yea its built from ooo source
[22:28] <nixternal> jeesh, full integration would be insane...at that point I would just put resources into KOffice
[22:28] <calc> heh :)
[22:28] <calc> well file picker, print dialog, etc
[22:29] <calc> i think that with ooo 3.2 it will be using the openprinting stuff so we won't need kde print support long term anyway
[22:29] <nixternal> oh that's cool
[22:36] <lex79> ScottK: this bug http://www.imagebin.ca/view/Nqqci3YU.html is still present in your sistem in 4.2.3/qt 4.5.1?
[22:37] <lex79> it is really boring
[22:38] <nixternal> hahahaha
[22:38] <nixternal> I have never seen that before
[22:39] <Mamarok> well, it's a known Qt bug, isn't it?
[22:39] <Mamarok> you should integrate the patch
[22:40]  * JontheEchidna has never seen that one
[22:40] <lex79> JontheEchidna: ScottK does
[22:44] <JontheEchidna> if there's a patch I don't see it in qt-copy
[22:45] <Mamarok> JontheEchidna: markey just told me there was a patch released
[22:45] <Mamarok> maybe check with troubalex
[22:49] <lex79> JontheEchidna: this http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/qt-copy/patches/0279-svg-rendering-regression.diff?revision=958573&view=markup
[22:49] <lex79> http://rdieter.livejournal.com/13559.html
[22:49] <JontheEchidna> we have that one already
[22:50] <JontheEchidna> at least in the packages in karmic and kubuntu-experimental
[22:50] <lex79> I have 4.5.1 from experimental
[22:50] <nixternal> lovely, oo.o-kde is created from a bunch of patches...my eyes just crossed looking at them...looks like some kde4 support has already been started at least
[22:56] <calc> nixternal: best bet is to start the OOo build then kill it after it finished patching everything
[22:56] <calc> nixternal: its a bit ugly but seems the easiest way to do it
[22:57] <calc> nixternal: there is somewhere around 800 patches in ooo-build
[22:57] <calc> nixternal: yea there is also a section in ooo-build/patches/dev300/apply to enable the preliminary kde4 support
[22:58] <calc> nixternal: you may want to look at what is there, i am not sure if it is in a state that it will currently apply to the code though
[22:58] <calc> nixternal: the code is hosted via git from freedesktop.org also so if you want to work on it through that and then generate sets for someone else to commit that would work as well
[23:19] <seele> ScottK: hmm.. maybe
[23:19] <txwikinger> Well.. that is interesting... ubuntu one is apparently not targeted for KDE users ;)
[23:21] <seele> heh yeah.. i signed up but didnt install the client
[23:48] <blizzz> wow, launchpad elements make their getaway in konqui! O.O
[23:50] <blizzz> lol.. works again... strange things going on this night..
[23:54] <neversfelde> blizzz: mhhh
[23:55] <neversfelde> :)
[23:56] <blizzz> neversfelde: i am sure they wouldn't have flown when they were stop signs ;)
[23:56] <neversfelde> hehe