[00:54] <bodhi_zazen> package management 10 min ?
[00:54] <bodhi_zazen> anyone here for packagemanagemt ?
[00:55] <nhandler> o/
[00:56] <d0htem> :o
[00:56] <bodhi_zazen> nhandler: you could probably do better then I in this discussion, so feel free to add in as the time comes :)
[00:59]  * alexbobp manages Daisuke_Ido's package
[00:59] <WastePotato> Wat.
[01:00] <alexbobp> WastePotato: I'm just getting ready for the class
[01:00] <bodhi_zazen> anyone want to see command line stuff with a shared session ?
[01:00] <bodhi_zazen> will save that for the end :)
[01:00] <d0htem> shared ssh?
[01:00] <bodhi_zazen> yes d0htem :)
[01:00] <bodhi_zazen> ssh + screen
[01:00] <bodhi_zazen> First, thank you all for coming
[01:01] <bodhi_zazen> If you have any suggestions for topics, let me know :)
[01:01] <d0htem> !fix jaunty compiz configuration
[01:01] <ubot2> d0htem: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[01:01] <WastePotato> ?
[01:01] <bodhi_zazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Proposals
[01:01] <bodhi_zazen> FYI, the long term goal is to establish Ubuntu Education
[01:02] <bodhi_zazen> We have started the Ubuntu Community Learning Project
[01:02] <bodhi_zazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
[01:03] <bodhi_zazen> :)
[01:03] <bodhi_zazen> OK, package management
[01:03] <bodhi_zazen> this session is aimed at new users, although if it is too basic we can get into the nitty-gritty :)
[01:03] <Joeb454> jacob: way to be late
[01:04] <bodhi_zazen> new users are often overwhelmed, and one of the FAQ is how to install things
[01:04] <jacob> Joeb454: it's how the cool kids roll
[01:04] <bodhi_zazen> Should be obvious, but they get caught up in tar balls fast :)
[01:04] <bodhi_zazen> There are many ways of installing software, known as packages
[01:05] <bodhi_zazen> If you are new to Ubuntu, and even if you are not, use the repositories (which we will cover).
[01:05] <bodhi_zazen> The repositories are pre-built binary packages
[01:06] <bodhi_zazen> reference : https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingSoftware
[01:06] <bodhi_zazen> So let's discuss how to install packages using graphical tools :)
[01:06] <bodhi_zazen> I am a BIG fan of Synpatic
[01:07] <bodhi_zazen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SynapticHowto
[01:07] <bodhi_zazen> Alternates include "Add/Remove"
[01:08] <bodhi_zazen> although personally I find Add/Remove is not as good as synaptic, especially when searching for packages.
[01:08] <bodhi_zazen> Kubuntu uses Adept - similar comments :)
[01:08] <bodhi_zazen> Add/Remove is in your menu, lol
[01:09] <bodhi_zazen> OK, brief overview / side track :)
[01:09] <bodhi_zazen> Where do packages come from ?
[01:09] <bodhi_zazen> a question every parent dreads :)
[01:10] <bodhi_zazen> Packages come from source code
[01:10] <bodhi_zazen> the source coed is compiled into binaries by the ubuntu developers and the MOTU (over simplification, sorry)
[01:11] <bodhi_zazen> The binaries are stored in the Repositories, or collections of packages
[01:11] <bodhi_zazen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Ubuntu
[01:11] <bodhi_zazen> Packages have some housekeeping we will not be discussing in detail at the moment
[01:12] <bodhi_zazen> Developers "sign" the packages (security issues)
[01:12] <bodhi_zazen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SecureApt
[01:13] <bodhi_zazen> Apt is the "Back end"
[01:13] <bodhi_zazen> Apt is used to track packages and dependencies
[01:13] <bodhi_zazen> A dependency is requirements
[01:14] <bodhi_zazen> for example, say you wish to run Firestarter
[01:14] <bodhi_zazen> (bad example I know)
[01:14] <bodhi_zazen> You need to have (among other things) iptables and X (a graphcial system) as Firestarter is a graphical system
[01:15] <bodhi_zazen> In the good old days, before package management, you would have to find all these dependencies for yourself
[01:15] <bodhi_zazen> Now Apt, and thus apt-get, aptitude, Synaptic, Adept, Add/Remove track all this for you :)
[01:15] <bodhi_zazen> Major advantage of Ubuntu, especially for new users
[01:16] <bodhi_zazen> With me so far ?
[01:16] <bodhi_zazen> So let us return to installing a package foo
[01:16] <bodhi_zazen> Assuming foo is in the Ubuntu Repositories you can install foo with a graphical front end
[01:17] <bodhi_zazen> And all the dependencies will be installed for you
[01:17] <bodhi_zazen> You can use the graphical front end to manage repositories
[01:17] <bodhi_zazen> And remove the package as well
[01:17] <bodhi_zazen> So ... Where does a package go ?
[01:18] <bodhi_zazen> In Windows programs typically go into Program Files, organized by Program
[01:18] <bodhi_zazen> In Linux the files system is organized differently
[01:18] <bodhi_zazen> so ..
[01:18] <bodhi_zazen> the binary itself goes into /bin (or /usr/bin or /sbin ... )
[01:19] <bodhi_zazen> The config files go in /etc
[01:19] <bodhi_zazen> the user files go in $HOME
[01:19] <bodhi_zazen> the man pages go with the other man pages
[01:19] <bodhi_zazen> So if you understand the basics of the Linux File System / tree you know where packages go :)
[01:20] <bodhi_zazen> Overview of the repositories ?
[01:21] <bodhi_zazen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Ubuntu
[01:21] <bodhi_zazen> When you first install Ubuntu, not all of the repositories are "acitve"
[01:21] <bodhi_zazen> Typically Main
[01:22] <bodhi_zazen> One then adds Restricted Universe and Multiverse
[01:22] <bodhi_zazen> The exact mechanics of adding a repository vary by the tool you are using and is covered in detail here : https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Ubuntu
[01:23] <bodhi_zazen> I mention that as one of the other FAQ new users have is what to do when an application is not found in Add/Remove etc
[01:23] <bodhi_zazen> and the most common reason for that is the Universe / Multivers repositories are not active
[01:24] <bodhi_zazen> One can manually activate repositories by editing /etc/apt/sources.list
[01:24] <bodhi_zazen> and removing # at the front of lines or adding lines
[01:24] <bodhi_zazen> Next installing 3rd party applications .deb etc
[01:25] <bodhi_zazen> First, security - do not install application from untrusted sources :)
[01:25] <nhandler> As a note, if you edit /etc/apt/sources.list by hand, remember to run 'sudo apt-get update' to cause your changes to take effect
[01:25] <bodhi_zazen> Second, just because it is a .deb does NOT mean you can install it on Ubuntu
[01:25] <bodhi_zazen> And third, you can not mix and match repositories at will
[01:26] <bodhi_zazen> by that I mean, although Ubuntu is based on Debian , you can not simply add the debian repositories
[01:26] <bodhi_zazen> likewise you can not mix 9.04 repositories with 8.04 :)
[01:27] <bodhi_zazen> If you mix repositories you can try something like pinning : https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto
[01:27] <bodhi_zazen> be warned , you can not simply use pinning either, pinning can cause breakage
[01:28] <bodhi_zazen> IMO, rather then using 3rd party .deb or pinning you are best off building from source
[01:28] <bodhi_zazen> I will leave building from source for another day :)
[01:28] <bodhi_zazen> The good news, with the sheer size of the Ubuntu repositories it is rare you need to build from source
[01:29] <bodhi_zazen> I am going to move to command line next
[01:29] <bodhi_zazen> questions about basic packages / dependencies / graphical front ends ?
[01:29] <bodhi_zazen> If not, do you want a demo on a shared ssh session ?
[01:30] <bodhi_zazen> -- Questions please --
[01:30] <d0htem> how do packages get added to repository
[01:30] <bodhi_zazen> depends on the repository
[01:30] <d0htem> why arent they allways uptodate and how can we help, to do that in example nmap
[01:30] <bodhi_zazen> how general are you asking ?
[01:30] <bodhi_zazen> how do you get a package into the repositories ?
[01:31] <d0htem> yes!
[01:31] <bodhi_zazen> Well, in general , a 3rd party application such as nmap => MOTU :)
[01:31] <kklimonda> nmap is in main
[01:32] <st33med> d0htem, submit the package's lp info to a MOTU person, and he might consider it
[01:32] <bodhi_zazen> If the package is in main then it is the Canonical developers
[01:32] <Daisuke_Ido> then there are personal package archives
[01:32] <bodhi_zazen> In general
[01:32] <bodhi_zazen> A package gose through testing
[01:32] <bodhi_zazen> *goes*
[01:32] <jacob> bodhi_zazen: not necessairily canonical, but ~ubuntu-core-dev
[01:32] <bodhi_zazen> Let us use mother Debian as an example
[01:32] <DasEi> man dpkg is a good hint for checking deb's
[01:32] <bodhi_zazen> you have debian stable
[01:33] <bodhi_zazen> those packages are older, and, as the name implies, stable
[01:33] <bodhi_zazen> bugs have been tested and worked out
[01:33] <bodhi_zazen> A new package or version comes along
[01:33] <bodhi_zazen> It goes first into Unstable
[01:34] <bodhi_zazen> people test it and it then goes into testing
[01:34] <bodhi_zazen> as it is further tested it finds it's way into stable
[01:34] <bodhi_zazen> Is that general enough for everyone ?
[01:34] <d0htem> yes thank you very much
[01:34] <bodhi_zazen> Ubuntu takes a snapshot of testing => fixes bugs => release every 6 months
[01:35] <bodhi_zazen> So if you want to help -> participate in testing and bug reports
[01:35] <bodhi_zazen> or join one of the development teams
[01:35] <bodhi_zazen> but is it no simply compile an updated binary and release it :)
[01:35] <st33med> At the time of the final release candidate, all repositories are 'frozen', meaning no major version updates are applied
[01:36]  * st33med just adding two cents
[01:36] <bodhi_zazen> thanks :)
[01:36] <bodhi_zazen> it is a broad question
[01:36] <bodhi_zazen> In general updated packages go through testing before they make it into the repositories
[01:36] <bodhi_zazen> While we are on that subject :)
[01:37] <bodhi_zazen> How often to update your system ?
[01:37] <bodhi_zazen> New users often update daily
[01:37] <st33med> Every five seconds
[01:37] <st33med> :)
[01:37] <bodhi_zazen> just keep in mind , a chance to update is a chance to break
[01:37]  * st33med shuts up
[01:37] <bodhi_zazen> So, before you update :)
[01:37] <bodhi_zazen> 1. Ask yourself, do you need said updated package ?
[01:38] <bodhi_zazen> 2. i look on the forums, are there threads like "todays update broke X" ?
[01:38] <bodhi_zazen> 3. Look at the list of packages to be updated
[01:38] <bodhi_zazen> I advise security updates daily
[01:38] <bodhi_zazen> The rest I do once a week at most
[01:39] <bodhi_zazen> Sometimes , on servers, once every 3 months
[01:39] <bodhi_zazen> >:)
[01:39] <st33med> bad bodhi_zazen
[01:39] <bodhi_zazen> depends on what will happen if an update breaks a system
[01:39] <bodhi_zazen> Desktops do not matter
[01:39] <bodhi_zazen> Servers sometimes do
[01:39] <bodhi_zazen> LOL statik
[01:40] <bodhi_zazen> st33med: :)
[01:40] <st33med> :D
[01:40] <bodhi_zazen> newer is not always better, and sometimes one trades stability for older packages
[01:40] <bodhi_zazen> Of course I update my test installs in a VM daily
[01:40] <bodhi_zazen> but if a VM breaks, no big deal
[01:40] <bodhi_zazen> OK, command line then ?
[01:41] <st33med> Sure \o/
[01:41] <bodhi_zazen> You can update with
[01:41] <bodhi_zazen> apt-get update
[01:41] <bodhi_zazen> apt-get upgrade
[01:41] <bodhi_zazen> If a package is held back, try
[01:41] <bodhi_zazen> apt-get dist-upgrade
[01:41] <Daisuke_Ido> just make sure to cover apt-cache - the single easiest way to search for and get info on packages
[01:42] <bodhi_zazen> You can install a .deb, like say virtualbox, with dpkg
[01:42] <bodhi_zazen> dpkg -i Virtualbox.bed
[01:42] <bodhi_zazen> *deb
[01:42] <bodhi_zazen> That will fail if you have unmet dependencies ...
[01:42] <bodhi_zazen> so ...
[01:42] <bodhi_zazen> apt-get -f
[01:42] <st33med> Usually, the only time you have a held back package is a pinned package or you are in a pre-RC version of Ubuntu
[01:42] <bodhi_zazen> apt-get -f install
[01:42] <bodhi_zazen> will install dependencies , then finish installing VirtualBox
[01:43] <bodhi_zazen> apt-get must of course be run as root , so sudo apt-get ...
[01:43] <bodhi_zazen> or sudo -i
[01:43] <bodhi_zazen> or make an alias :)
[01:44] <bodhi_zazen> For information on packages you have apt-cache (which can be run as a regular user)
[01:44] <bodhi_zazen> apt-cache search foo
[01:44] <bodhi_zazen> will tell you all about package foo
[01:44] <bodhi_zazen> and then there is also dpkg
[01:44] <bodhi_zazen> dpkg -l
[01:44] <bodhi_zazen> will list all installed packages :)
[01:45] <bodhi_zazen> you can also use aptitude, similar to apt-get
[01:45] <bodhi_zazen> aptitude install foo
[01:47] <bodhi_zazen> you can use apt-get to build from source if you like as well :)
[01:47] <bodhi_zazen> it will use the Ubuntu source code, in the deb-src repositories
[01:47] <bodhi_zazen> teh ubuntu source code is often patched :)
[01:48] <bodhi_zazen> apt-get will even handle dependencies for that as will
[01:48] <franki^> is there any advantage to doing that?
[01:49] <bodhi_zazen> In general no franki^
[01:49] <bodhi_zazen> BUT sometimes you need or want to say apply a patch
[01:49] <bodhi_zazen> or modify the source code yourself
[01:50] <bodhi_zazen> nhandler: ??
[01:50] <bodhi_zazen> anything to add ?
[01:50] <st33med> apt-get moo
[01:50] <st33med> :)
[01:50] <bodhi_zazen> We have 10 minutes left and I would like to stop to answer questions ...
[01:51] <bodhi_zazen> This was kind of a lightning overview of package management , lol
[01:51] <st33med> --- QUESTIONS ---
[01:52] <jacob> one thing i would like to point out, universe + restricted are enabled by default on new installs (not sure if multiverse is or not)
[01:52] <wirechief> bodhi_zazen: can you discuss the use of  sudo dpkg --remove --force-depends bar
[01:53] <wirechief> bodhi_zazen: for fixing broken packages
[01:53] <bodhi_zazen> Well, first, when removing a package
[01:53] <bodhi_zazen> you
[01:53] <bodhi_zazen> apt-get remove foo
[01:53] <bodhi_zazen> That *should* remove dependencies
[01:53] <bodhi_zazen> apt-get remove --purge foo
[01:53] <bodhi_zazen> removes foo and config files
[01:54] <bodhi_zazen> but NOT config files in $HOME
[01:54] <bodhi_zazen> Sometimes not all the dependencies are removed
[01:54] <bodhi_zazen> your system will notify you, in which case
[01:54] <bodhi_zazen> apt-get autoremove
[01:55] <bodhi_zazen> Fixing broken packages can be tough :)
[01:55] <d0htem> doesnt apt-get -f do the same as dpkg --remove
[01:55] <bodhi_zazen> I do not think so d0htem
[01:55] <bodhi_zazen> apt-get -f = force or fix broken
[01:56] <DasEi> how do I get the *deb name of a package, let's say firefox ?
[01:56] <bodhi_zazen> apt-cache serarch firefox
[01:56] <st33med> DasEi, it usually has a .deb at the end or some version numbers at the end + a deb
[01:56] <bodhi_zazen> dpkg --remove --force-depends will remove foo and it's depencencies
[01:57] <DasEi> I try to list ff's dependencies, like in this (outdated) sample : dpkg-deb -I packages/firefox_1.5.dfsg+1.5.0.1-1ubuntu12_i386.deb
[01:57] <bodhi_zazen> apt-cache showpackage firefox
[01:58] <DasEi> ah..
[01:58] <wirechief> i had to use this; alternating with dpkg- --force-depends  packagename  then apt-get -f install  until i finally got all the broken packages removed
[01:58] <d0htem> showpkg?
[01:58] <bodhi_zazen> yes
[01:58] <bodhi_zazen> sorry
[01:58] <bodhi_zazen> apt-cache showpkg firefox                      05/14/09  6:58 PM Package: firefox Versions:  Reverse Depends:   xfig-doc,firefox   webhttrack,firefox   screenlets,firefox   openoffice.org,firefox   nip2,firefox   mozilla-plugin-pcmanx,firefox   mozilla-openoffice.org,firefox   mozilla-nukeimage,firefox   mozilla-noscript,firefox   mozilla-imagezoom,firefox
[01:59] <DasEi> thatdid the trick, thx
[01:59] <bodhi_zazen> Well, if you have broken packages you can be in serious trouble
[02:00] <bodhi_zazen> usually happens when installing 3rd party .deb
[02:00]  * wirechief had a package of bandaids with me
[02:00] <bodhi_zazen> Which gets back to , just because it is a .deb does not mean you should install it :)
[02:00] <wirechief> bodhi_zazen: well this was with using karmic (it will break things atm)
[02:01] <st33med> It could be a Debian .deb and break the system
[02:01] <bodhi_zazen> lol wirechief :)
[02:01] <bodhi_zazen> mixed repositories or pinning ?
[02:01] <bodhi_zazen> Our time is up :(
[02:02] <bodhi_zazen> I hope this was not too fast of an overview
[02:02] <wirechief> bodhi_zazen: actually have done the update-manager -d to get karmic, i am trying to get the leading edge fix
[02:02] <wirechief> for my intel
[02:02] <bodhi_zazen> package management can get complicated fast
[02:02] <bodhi_zazen> Ah :)
[02:02] <DasEi> was more then that, nice
[02:03] <wirechief> bodhi_zazen: i am basically testing freeze issues with intel and giving as much feedback to the people who are tracking the bug
[02:04] <bodhi_zazen> The intention of these sessions is education and if you all have a topic please add it to the list
[02:04] <bodhi_zazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Proposals
[02:04] <wirechief> bodhi_zazen: thank you for your classroom session i plan on saving if for future references..
[02:04] <bodhi_zazen> Obviously we can talk a whole hour on some of these topics :)
[02:05] <bodhi_zazen> we could do a session on installing from source :)
[02:05] <wirechief> ;)
[02:05] <bodhi_zazen> a whole session on testing / adding packages to Ubuntu , etc
[02:05] <st33med> bodhi_zazen, from a .tar or repository? Or both?
[02:06] <bodhi_zazen> i was thinking both statik
[02:06] <bodhi_zazen> st33med: :)
[02:06] <st33med> :D
[02:06] <d0htem> auto-complete for the lose :p
[02:06] <bodhi_zazen> first from repositories
[02:06] <bodhi_zazen> then resolving dependencies
[02:06] <bodhi_zazen> foo-dev
[02:06] <bodhi_zazen> build-essential
[02:06] <bodhi_zazen> and then .tar.gz
[02:07] <bodhi_zazen> of course that leads to things like gcc ... >:)
[02:07] <bodhi_zazen> OK, meet again in 2 weeks
[02:07] <bodhi_zazen> I shall consider installing form source unless there are other suggestions :)
[02:08] <bodhi_zazen> nhandler: sorry if I botched package management too much :)
[02:08] <nhandler> No, you did a very nice job bodhi_zazen
[02:08] <st33med> It's my fault XD
[02:08] <d0htem> installing from source!! plz
[02:08] <wirechief> bodhi_zazen:  i would like to see a course on compiling alsa driver  for sound, many need updated drivers for their sound to work after upgrading or installing ubuntu new.
[02:08] <nhandler> It is difficult explaining package management in simple language
[02:09] <bodhi_zazen> OK next session - to the source :)
[02:09] <bodhi_zazen> I have to run, family time :)
[02:09] <bodhi_zazen> thank you everyone
[02:10] <wirechief> thanks bodhi_zazen
[02:10] <st33med> Say hey to the kiddos :D
[02:10] <bodhi_zazen> I think I need to bite off smaller topics and leave more time for questions :p
[02:10] <wirechief> ;)
[02:10]  * st33med thinks about setting up a Python tutorial again...
[02:10] <d0htem> to hell with py!
[02:10] <st33med> HISSS
[02:11] <d0htem> .rb for the win
[02:11] <st33med> .py ftw
[02:11] <d0htem> die
[02:11] <st33med> no u
[02:17] <Daisuke_Ido> nice one st33med, you killed him.
[02:17] <st33med> yay
[02:50] <witcher> what is this room for? classes or queations
[02:50] <perlluver> classes mainly, I believe
[02:50] <witcher> oh ok ty
[02:50] <perlluver> yw
[02:50] <witcher> do you know what kind of classes
[02:51] <perlluver> a little bit of everything
[02:51] <perlluver> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
[02:51] <witcher> kk
[02:51] <perlluver> that might explain it better
[02:51] <witcher> k ty again
[02:51] <perlluver> no problem
[02:51] <witcher>  i just installed ubuntu 2 days ago lol
[02:52] <perlluver> ah, congrats
[02:52] <witcher> so far i like it better than xp
[02:52] <witcher> ty
[02:52] <witcher> its just so differant
[02:52] <perlluver> it is
[02:52] <perlluver> you will get used to it eventually
[02:52] <witcher> i am running dual OS
[02:52] <witcher> i hope so
[02:52] <perlluver> that is good
[02:53] <witcher> i run xp for gamming lol
[02:53] <perlluver> if you don't like it you can always go back
[02:53] <witcher> true
[02:53] <perlluver> I used to, but I have been all Linux for about 3 years now
[02:53] <witcher> wow
[02:53] <perlluver> yeah it has been a fun ride
[02:53] <witcher> this installing is mostly waht gets me stuck
[02:54] <witcher> its differant
[02:54] <perlluver> it got me at first, but I have tried so many systems, that I can install without blinking now
[02:54] <nhandler> You guys might want to move this conversation to a different channel
[02:54] <perlluver> sorry nhandler
[02:54] <witcher> sorry
[02:55] <witcher> ty for the link perl
[02:55] <perlluver> yw