=== jeiworth_ is now known as jeiworth === nixternal_ is now known as nixternal === nubae1 is now known as Nubae === nubae1 is now known as Nubae [15:56] Anybody alive in here at all? [18:35] hey [18:55] Anybody alive in here at all? [18:58] HI [18:58] im alive :D svenstaro :) [18:58] Uh hi there. [18:59] I'll just make my own Edubuntu now. I'm sick of the uncertainity and silence. [18:59] lol [18:59] I really wanna create a distro suited for schools, not just some random apps put into a LTSP. [18:59] dont leave us! [19:00] work on edubuntu [19:00] why not help me with eskole? [19:00] Well I wanna, but if Cannocial is gonna keep quite I'll make my own. [19:00] What's that? [19:00] http://dev.abruptus.dyndns.org/projects/eskole [19:00] s'gonna rock! :P [19:01] but we're gonna push and get edubuntu back up and running [19:01] get some fresh peeps [19:01] and the old'uns working [19:01] we were gonna organise a meeting, and advertise it [19:01] No use, we need some people who are willing to pull all-nighters for Edubuntu's sake or whatever the name is gonna be. [19:01] im willing to :) [19:02] It's about dedication. I'm certainly willing to do it. [19:02] I know how to build distros so that's a plus I guess. [19:03] well im willing to put alot in [19:03] if a few others are [19:03] then theres a driving force behind it [19:03] and thats all it needs to get started [19:03] You can't count on too many people I'm afraid. [19:03] i can bring in fresh peope [19:04] im sure you know people too [19:04] thats the whole point of the meeting idea [19:04] advertise it across mailing lists, forums etc. [19:04] so we get fresh people, original people and everyone plans/ideas get heard [19:04] Don't do that before there is a base. [19:05] Edubuntu needs to be almost completely scratched. [19:05] Too much is wrong right now. [19:05] whaddya mean by base? [19:05] and scratch? [19:05] A base means there is a firm fundament that incorporates all the basic ideas behind the new Edubuntu. [19:05] Scratch all that stands right now, it will only lead to the wrong directions. We need a fresh start. [19:06] The current Edubuntu is direction-less. [19:06] thats what this meeting idea is aboiut [19:06] a fresh start [19:06] a brainstorm [19:06] Yes, well we better get together soon then. [19:07] Is there a mailing list except for the official Edubuntu one for this? [19:07] edubuntu-devel? [19:09] Is that one actuall alive? [19:11] its kind of alive [19:11] but we need some real fresh blood [19:11] or it will be dead come next release [19:14] I'll start a thread on edubuntu-devel. I hope I get some responses. I am actually quite fast in hacking something workable together if that's what it takes. [19:14] It's time for the revolution, finally... [19:32] Svenstaro: it is indeed, nice to see that kind of enthusiasm, many of us here are just sceptical at this point, a revolution is gonna be required [19:32] Svenstaro: u should talk to Laserjock if u really want to start hacking/packaging/maintaining/triaging [19:33] Frankly I don't care. If people are too stubborn to drop what went wrong just because it was hard work once, I'll just take my direction. I don't mean to say that I don't want to cooperate, quite the opposite actually, but I *really* think a semi-fresh start is required. [19:33] By semi-fresh I mean we might as well use Alternate's LTSP and that's about it. [19:34] yeah, I agree :-) still communicate with Laserjock, he's really been doing edubuntu by himself for the last 2-3 release cycles [19:35] Does he check the lists? [19:50] yeah he does [19:50] but u can contact him directly too [19:51] laserjock at ubuntu.com I believe [20:17] hi again [20:17] sorry my internet broke [20:26] Svenstaro, Nubae: after I disconnected - did i miss anything [20:27] We had a party and you were invited but didn't attend. [20:30] :( [20:30] :P [20:44] Check yer mails [20:54] ok :) [20:54] Svenstaro: [20:54] * bencrisford_ has no new mails :( [20:54] Check again [20:55] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2009-May/002876.html [20:55] lol ok [20:58] i dnt get why i never got it :( [20:58] got it :D [21:04] * bencrisford_ has replied svenstaro [21:04] * Svenstaro has received [21:05] * bencrisford_ smiles :) [21:05] As I said, a name change is a last resort. [21:06] nubae, check los mail0s [21:07] Svenstaro: u here? [21:08] Svenstaro: so you got my message? thats odd [21:08] Ahmuck, of course. [21:08] bencrisford_, why? [21:08] Svenstaro: i'm dumping ubuntu ltsp on the first of june [21:08] svenstaro: dw, i just got told it didnt work :/ [21:09] there are issues that need to be addressed before ubuntu ltsp will work in edubuntu [21:09] Ahmuck, so you are the Edubuntu maintainer? [21:09] Or rather, Ubuntu LTSP? [21:09] define maintainer [21:09] Person who takes care of stuff :D [21:10] locally yes, for ubuntu, no [21:10] the look-after-er Ahmuk :P [21:11] local school districts are getting citrix (ms) and ms office, etc. for free [21:11] Svenstaro: Ugh! Whaddya make of this, i could post to the list fine the other day: http://pastebin.com/m657ddbc2 [21:11] Oh dear [21:11] Ahmuck, where is that? [21:11] part of the reason i've decided to dump it, because i'm to busy and don't have time to train somebody through ltsp and it's problems [21:11] 1. need gui tools [21:12] 2. firefox keeps crashing [21:12] 3. need tools that allow admin globally as well as fine grained per user [21:12] 4. messages, etc. are broadcast to everyone ... printing, etc. [21:13] 5. user changes sound and everybodys sound changes, etc. [21:13] i've run into a host of issues with ltsp on a recent upgrade. it's not something i'd be willing to risk employment deploying. with ms a least you have someone to blame [21:15] if edubuntu want's to make a go at it, they need programming support to create tools that teachers can do simple things with to be effective [21:16] Heh. Well, this kind of was my point as well. [21:16] i'd even go so far to say, specify hardware [21:16] i'm still interested in it, but it's got problems [21:16] what kind of programming support? [21:16] and programming support needs to listen to users [21:17] someone to program gui interfaces. the local high school typing teacher is not going to open a command line to add a user [21:17] Exactly my thoughts. [21:17] what exactly is ltsp? [21:17] And a gui for that is easy enough. For starters, it could be done with zenity and some cheesy bash scripting [21:17] (soz for the noob questions im new round here :P) [21:17] another very important feature is a default wine configuration and some tested windows apps that can be used in edbuntu [21:18] ok, what are you talking about? [21:18] linux terminal server project [21:18] still the same old forking edubuntu? :) [21:18] no offence, but forking it would do 2 things. either create something that worked, or put a fire under some people so that edubuntu worked well [21:19] bbl [21:19] I am not necessarily against it, just asking [21:19] I just came in :p [21:20] pygi, I take it you read my mail? [21:20] Svenstaro: you've got the answer [21:20] answer to what :P [21:20] * bencrisford_ confused :( [21:20] we keep loosing school districts to citrix, and in a year, there won't be room for ubuntu ltsp or linux anywhere [21:21] bencrisford_: he asked about the future of edubuntu [21:21] ah yeah [21:21] we were discussing a meeting earlier [21:21] bencrisford_: lets wait with that [21:21] yeah i agree [21:22] UDS is coming soon, at least me and Jonathan will be there to find out what's happening [21:22] ah ok [21:22] When is it? [21:22] Ahmuck: have you actually used citrix? It was totally unusuable for my school, so we decided to use ltsp. [21:22] Svenstaro: next week [21:22] people ask ltsp questions in edubuntu because many times in #ltsp they get refered somewhere else [21:22] I see [21:23] alkisg: i know it's unusable, but a 1200 seat high school just dropped all open source and went with citrix and ms office because someone offered it for free, turn key [21:23] ur loosing market share, and it's not a battle you can afford to loose [21:23] OK, "just" is the keyword here, I'd like to see them after trying it for 2-3 months... [21:23] they have [21:23] it's not "just". [21:24] In 45 minutes of trying, I got *only one* student out of 8 to open excel remotely for 5 minutes. The rest of the time there were only problems. [21:25] Apps kept crashing, response was really slow, logging in was slow, there was no desktop... [21:25] Mh [21:25] quote " [21:25] buntu and LTSP on top of it. Any educational [21:25] apps my schools want, I'll install for them. They need my help because [21:25] they don't know how to do it. I want t [21:25] " end quote [21:26] alkisg: i'm crashing all over here with the new 9.04 [21:26] hplip crashes our system [21:26] Well, I'm not. I haven't had a crash for the whole year [21:26] 8.10 and then 9.04 [21:26] someone prints out something and it's broadcasted to the entire class [21:26] In all the classes... [21:27] Ahmuck: some of the problems you mentioned are easily solved, e.g. for the audio you just need to remove the users from the audio group [21:27] Others can't be solved easily, sure, but I think it's better than citrix [21:27] why? if classmate a want's sound and classmate b doesn't shouldn't that be an option, easily done by opening the sound and moving the bar? [21:28] again, i'm swamped with work and don't have time to visit the instructor who needs to change it [21:28] Ahmuck: sure, if you remove them from the audio group you get what you're saying [21:28] I.e. student A gets a different mixer from student B [21:28] why are users by default in the audio group? [21:28] that's the questions that should be asked [21:29] Because gnome-system-tools is not LTSP aware... I agree with you here [21:29] which comes back to user managment [21:29] my primary #1 problem is making customizations for user managment [21:29] But I prefer user/software management with linux than with windows, its *much* easier [21:29] Hey all [21:29] ...and I've been programming windows for the last 17 years [21:30] Hey Lns [21:30] Ahmuck: IMHO you should *not* be using Jaunty in a production environment, especially trying to tie it into LTSP and other bits! [21:30] That's akin to using Windows 7 on all your machines right now [21:31] You have to expect it to break. It's only been out for a little bit. [21:32] using 8.10 was better, but still had issues [21:32] Ahmuck: I am one of the original authors of Edubuntu Cookbook [21:32] Ahmuck: right. I'm still using 8.04 LTS at all my sites, and it's bulletproof. [21:33] and the problem is that while everything was slightly dying, so did all of the original authors left the community [21:34] from a edubuntu ltsp, we need ... a central server, user managment, personlized profiles for apps, ie .firefox - bookmarks, etc. global managment for apps, ie firefox addons, security, downloads, wallpapers, [21:34] and pre-configured wine [21:34] Ahmuck: Edubuntu != LTSP [21:34] *shrugs* i agree [21:35] Ahmuck: and do you get those with citrix?!!! Personalized profiles for apps? [21:35] and drop in the ltsp room and if it's ubuntu specific i get the same response [21:35] ltsp != ubuntu [21:35] you're right, it's not. [21:35] alkisg: don't know. the school calls a local it company to manage it [21:36] Ahmuck: All of these things work together in a software ecosystem. No one project leads all of them. [21:36] there are no local it linux companies. we did have a local company that brought in a linux admin to set some servers and ie up, but he resigned after it was done, leaving the company stuck with no one to run it [21:36] Ahmuck: where are you located? [21:37] in a community of 1200, with a company that produces products globally, (they are located here for "cheap" labor) imagine the impression that was left when that happened [21:37] anyhow, i'll bbl. feel free to msg me [21:38] Oh dear, I sparked quite some conversation there. Good though. [21:38] I hate seeing projects die by *not* talking about them. [21:38] exactly. [21:39] Still there seems to be some controversy about Edubuntu's new direction, which is a good thing IMO. [21:39] Personally, I want it to be equally suited for LTSP purposes as for workstation environemnts. [21:39] Svenstaro: how would you contribute to the new Edubuntu? :) [21:39] Svenstaro: define "it" specifically. :) [21:40] Svenstaro: I totally agree with your email, and I'll try to help in the summer when I have some free time. [21:40] pygi, I would even start up a new distro if required. I have a decent bit of Linux knowledge to pull off the basics. I just want to get somethign going at all so others can join in. [21:40] Lns, it, the new Edubuntu. [21:41] Svenstaro: define "the new Edubuntu" [21:41] Svenstaro: you certainly won't have to do it alone [21:41] if it'll happen [21:41] I think a distribution is completely overkill [21:41] Lns: why so? [21:41] Lns, the Edubuntu that the old (current) Edubuntu is going to become after we decide on what it should become. Yes, that was recursive but what I said was my own humble opinion only :) [21:41] pygi: what is the benefit? [21:42] pygi, just saying, I'd be willing to invest substantial time. [21:42] Svenstaro: hahaha ;) [21:42] Svenstaro: nice post [21:42] So we're stuck at the same place we were at about 3 months ago..we don't really *know* what Edubuntu is [21:43] Lns: we'll decide what Edubuntu is after we know the current state of it [21:43] For starters, I think Edubuntu should lose the sense of filling a general role. It isn't for that stuff. [21:43] the problem is other distros are running circles around edubuntu now [21:43] Svenstaro: have I already asked you if you know py? [21:43] pygi, py...thon? [21:43] yes [21:43] I'm working mostly with opensuse-edu, and I can tell you honestly that it makes edubuntu look laughable [21:43] Of course I do, I give after school lessons on it. [21:44] part of that is because of the freedom given to developers to make it what they want it to be [21:44] nubae: what's the diff between the two projects? [21:44] edubuntu is restricted in that sense [21:44] Svenstaro: that's good [21:44] and will not change till that restriction is gone [21:44] Lns: go and install an opensuse-edu live dvd and see for yourself [21:44] nubae: is opensuse-edu its own dist? [21:45] just one example is Sugar, which is an icon on the desktop and launches, works and every activity within it works and is the latest [21:45] yes it is [21:45] and in my opinion I agree, edubuntu has failed there [21:45] all the other -edu addons are distros in and of themselves [21:46] opensuse-edu has 2 gigs of educational content [21:46] all of it works, all of it amazing stuff [21:46] everything is gui installabale and managable [21:46] nubae: is it open source? Can we integrate it ? [21:46] or u can use the command line if you prefer [21:46] everything is open source yes [21:46] there is something called opensuse studio [21:46] I believe I mentioned this once before [21:47] you can go in and pick and choose components and then create your own iso [21:47] thats then writable to cd, dvd, usb or whatever [21:47] IMHO that is all pretty redundant. Why would you need all of that? [21:47] ease of installation? [21:47] about 2 things to click on and its installed [21:47] ltsp just works [21:48] and is easily managable [21:48] ldap just works [21:48] How does K12 compare, by the way? [21:48] samba just works [21:48] sugar, which is my area, just works [21:48] nubae: doesn't all of this stuff 'just work' with ubuntu?? I haven't had issues with installing/managing LTSP at all for a long time. [21:48] in ubuntu sugar is stuck at 0.82 and has no chance of developing due to debian policy [21:48] heh, no [21:48] All of the GUI apps that come with Ubuntu work fine with LTSP, LTSP really doesn't matter [21:49] ldap doesnt just work on ubuntu [21:49] ltsp is about the only thing [21:49] i agree, ldap would be nice [21:49] have u seen the jaunty complaints? [21:49] So it seems most people here agree that Edubuntu currently just sucks more than a black hole :D [21:49] * Lns sihgs [21:49] jaunty, imho, is still beta. you can't expect things to 'just work' with a version that just came out. [21:50] unless something really drastic happens, I'm no longer interested in development on this platform, and I know many others feel the same [21:50] jaunty is RELEASED [21:50] its not beta [21:50] nubae: i said IMHO. Did Vista 'just work' when it came out? [21:50] check the topic [21:50] did XP, or 2k, or 98/95? no [21:50] are we really going to compare vista to ubuntu? [21:51] you're comparing openSuse to it,... [21:51] yeah I wouldn compare opensuse to vista either [21:51] i'd be willing to wager that opensuse has its fair share of issues with versions it releases at first... [21:51] but anyway, unless something changes with policy, ubuntu will stay as it is [21:51] its not what I'm talking about [21:51] I'm not mentioning the teething problems [21:52] ok... lets turn it around [21:52] whats good about edubuntu right now? [21:52] edubuntu, not ubuntu [21:52] umm, we have a community..that's about it ;) [21:52] ah, ok, well barely [21:53] You should step into the opensuse-edu channel and lurk and watch as the work happens, that is a community [21:53] actual work happens [21:53] daily [21:53] with many members contributing [21:53] it grows [21:53] I agree with nubae here. I wish edubuntu had the same goals as opensuse-edu. [21:53] I think schools except a longer release cycle than Edubuntu has. I actually thought about making the new 'Edubuntu' stand on Debian but I'm afraid of the licensing and Debian's strict policy on that stuff. [21:53] Svenstaro: be careful when saying that someone agrees that edubuntu sucks [21:54] most of the people like to talk, but when it comes to action most fail [21:54] so wait and see :) [21:54] pygi: +1 [21:54] Svenstaro: you have a choice of release cycles - stick with the LTS versions, you'll be a happy camper [21:54] Personally, I'm a big Arch Linux guy but I wouldn't use a rolling distro to base a school distro. [21:54] Svenstaro: I use archlinux right now too [21:54] heh, when hardy came out it was the worst release yet [21:55] partly because firefox 3 was still in beta [21:55] pygi, I'm sorry :/ I'm actually quite eager to do *something* [21:55] but still [21:55] Svenstaro: I know you are, just saying from experience [21:55] there are many of us that have put our nose to the grind stone in here though [21:55] nubae: doesn't matter, nobody with any sense of experience rolls a dist. to a brand newly released version. That's just naive [21:56] but we've been forced to stay within very restrictive limits and the tools are not there to move forward efficiently or easily [21:56] not in an environment where so many people use it and depend on it daily, anyway. [21:56] and I just think its easier in opensuse-edu [21:56] I think schools don't want to upgrade every half year [21:56] pygi: i *know* my schools don't [21:56] well, its about building a product [21:56] and right now edubuntu is not a product [21:56] nubae: why is it about building a product? [21:56] its just this addon which really is just a bunch of programs [21:57] because thats what schools want [21:57] all of the pieces are there, why do you need something that says "Hey I'm educational ubuntu! use me!" [21:57] I agree there, nubae [21:57] nubae: I disagree [21:57] schools want something that works. They want support, and they want someone to depend on to fix it when it breaks. They want to know how to use it. [21:57] well, thats why Novell has made a deal with HP to carry its educational distro on its laptops [21:58] Svenstaro: HedgeMage is a cool kiddo, she's one of the original authors of edubuntu cookbool [21:58] and why canonical has pretty much dropped any concept of education on ubuntu [21:58] Hey HedgeMage :) [21:58] I've not heard a peep from an official ubuntu person in many months [21:58] hi, guys :) [21:58] nubae: Ubuntu != Canonical [21:58] thats not the point [21:58] nubae: you're comparing opensuse/novell to ubuntu/canonical. it's not the same [21:58] Lns: if we went forward with something new, I know of at least two companies willing to do support [21:59] pygi: you know 3, you mean. ;) [21:59] why is that not the same? [21:59] Lns: what's the third one? [21:59] * Lns raises hand [21:59] Lns company [21:59] Lns: :P [21:59] hell I would too [21:59] :) [21:59] Is Scott in herE? [22:00] but right now, we're rolling out opensuse-edu, running the latest sugar with kiwi-ltsp [22:00] Who just replied to mah mail? [22:00] nubae: it's not the same because canonical obviously doesn't care much for edubuntu, but we stand anyway [22:00] ah yes, there u are right [22:00] scott is a serious contributor to LTSP and edubuntu, but like others I believe he lost faith [22:00] he now hangs on the ltsp channel [22:01] dont know if he's even in here [22:01] he's not [22:01] sigh... [22:01] this just makes me so sad [22:01] we lost a lot of ppl because edubuntu used to mean easy ltsp installation. [22:01] its like watching a flame go out [22:01] yep edubuntu should be a distro [22:01] nubae: doesn't mean we can't use different fuel [22:02] nubae: yep? who are you responding to? [22:02] u [22:03] easy ltsp installation = edubuntu as a distro [22:03] I'll bbl, have a meeting [22:04] So many conflicting opinions again. The people who worked on Edubuntu for long say "Fix it up", I say decide on a direction (for now!) and excel in that direction before tackling new ones, others say just let it die. [22:05] Svenstaro: here's the thing [22:05] Also, making a bootable ISO, really isn't all that hard. [22:05] we know we need to do something [22:05] and we'll do it [22:05] I'm building another distro right now and it really isn't all that hard, just takes time. [22:05] Svenstaro: we'll have to decide what direction to go, and as always not everyone will like it [22:06] its actually even easier if the tools are available... opensuse studio I'm not sure if its gpl or not, but open build service is [22:06] but the point is to create a healthy community in the long term [22:06] I'm this short of just deciding for myself and see who will follow. [22:06] Svenstaro: haven't we agreed that you'll wait for a week and a half? :P [22:06] and that allows u to build packages for any distro and any plaform including arm by just uploading a spec file [22:06] pygi, yes :( [22:06] I'm here, but won't touch anything, not even my fatclient script until I see some real action [22:07] Svenstaro: thanks :) [22:07] thats my position [22:07] I work with opensuse-edu for now [22:07] From what I get to hear all around, everybody is waiting for the next person to actually get the hands dirty. [22:07] Svenstaro: not true [22:08] Should we decide so, I'll happily be the person to throw the first stone here. [22:09] I really think we should get the LTSP thing straight. It will be the hardest goal, so a workstation might be a better approach at first but that is a lot less appealing. [22:09] Svenstaro: I agree, but we should take the iterative approach [22:10] we can't change years of nothingg to something in a few days [22:10] pygi, that's probably right. You mean start with the smallest problem? [22:10] Svenstaro: yes, for now [22:10] first release will be a challenge, as we need the infrastructure setup, some rules and stuff [22:10] That would be a theme based workstation approach in my book. [22:11] probably, yes [22:11] By theme I of course mean physics, chemistry, biology, etc. [22:12] I'm not sure about you, but I think DVD approach would be way better too [22:12] Of course it is. [22:12] Honestly, and that might sound cruel, I don't care too much about people without DVD drives at this point :/ [22:13] The people who consider having a lab with LTSP clients would have a DVD drive. [22:13] There should be a CD version but mainly for installing. [22:13] Svenstaro: I agree [22:57] Bye everyone, talk again tomorrow.