Ahmucknubae: other distros are running circles around edubuntu ?  which distros, i might have to convert00:16
AhmuckLns there is the divide.  ur a tech, so of course it just works.  try it out in the hands of a layman00:17
Ahmuckis ubuntu getting input from people on jaunty before release?00:18
Ahmuckhow many schools have the resources to do testing.  if ubuntu isn't testing, then it's jaunty beta00:18
Ahmuckmorever, imho, if ur running ltsp or edubuntu and it's not ready, then a seperate upgrade/release schedule needs to be planned and that needs to be tied to the package manager00:19
sbalneavEvening all02:16
Ahmucka week or so?  sounds like there is something going on behind the scenes?02:45
* sbalneav *shrugs*02:48
sbalneavDid LaserJock officially pack it in?02:48
Ahmuckhe's working on his disertation02:55
Ahmucki think that's what did it for him.  so i'd say yes02:56
Ahmucklooks like nubae kinda dropped his activity.  our lab is running but upon upgrading we ended up with tremendous problems related to ltsp02:56
Ahmuckwhat's interesting is that edubuntu thinks that ltsp is not tied to it.  but there is no way i'd deploy 100 edubuntu desktops without ltsp.  who wants to run around updating or correcting every desktop02:57
sbalneavWhat always got to me, and I hope that I'm not sounding too bitter, is that the number of people actually DOING things was so small.  Me, you D. V-A, nubae, LaserJock, HighVoltage, and originally ogra.03:05
sbalneavWe had lots of people shouting "More! More!", and adding lots of suggestions, but when it came to actully having butts in chairs coding, it was the same old people slogging away.03:07
sbalneavThe bug day was where I started to lose interest.03:07
sbalneavAll these teachers screaming "Fix our bugs!" and not ONE of them showed up to help.03:07
sbalneavOh, well, if we're going to make another go of it, I'm in for another round.03:08
sbalneavI'm nothing if not a glutton for punishment.03:08
sbalneavI'm planning on focusing on docs, and getting sabayon going,03:08
sbalneavOne other thing I'd suggest: we tie edubuntu releases to the LTS ubuntu releases, and not to the 6 monthly releases.03:09
sbalneavWe just don't have the personpower to keep up with that pace.03:09
Ahmuckactually, i might suggest taking the debain direction on releases for edubuntu03:13
Ahmuckspecifically if it aint stable, don't release that particular product03:13
Ahmuckthat allows people breathing space03:13
Ahmuckand a bulleted item list of what's being worked on ... so if someone asks you can point to the list and say wait your turn03:14
Ahmuckah, i'm backreading and neglected to see your tie to LTS.  yes, i'd agree with that03:14
sbalneavYeah, either a "when it's done" philosophy, or at least tie to lts.03:16
highvoltagehey sbalneav05:08
highvoltagesbalneav: the LTS idea is interesting, I think it's worth while exploring05:09
sbalneavhighvoltage: hey hey14:47
nubaesbalneav: yo yo14:48
nubaenice to see u on the channel14:48
nubaeI've seen some real enthusiasm from new users in the last 2 weeks, lets see if it sticks...14:49
sbalneavNice to see you again too!14:57
highvoltagehey sbalneav, nubae15:14
highvoltagenubae: it's been nice seeing it15:14
highvoltagenubae: I'm glad that people still care15:14
nubaeyeah but 'm also glad that non of us is doing anything until we see some action15:15
highvoltagewell, it's not really like that15:16
nubaesure, I think we need some proof at this stage that something will happen15:17
nubaeanyway a meeting is a good start15:17
nubaeFriday is fine with me15:17
sbalneav18:00 utc is 12:00 or so here, fine with me15:20
nubaeneed to make sure Laserjock can make it then too, since he's so busy right now15:22
sbalneavIf he's working on his disertation, leave him be. His education's more important than edubuntu.15:23
nubaefor sure, but he may still want to be here, even if its couple minutes15:24
Ahmuckmeeting today?15:36
Ahmucki just noticed a e-mail about edubuntu bieng a "community" project.  any chance at this point forking it into something useful?15:36
* sbalneav rolls eyes15:37
sbalneavAnd forking it is going to fix it's problems how?15:37
* nubae rolls eyes even further back15:37
Ahmuckhrm, the complaint is no developers and/or to many restrictions15:37
nubaein my not so humble opinion, we need to regress back to a time when edubuntu was a distro15:38
Ahmuckforking it would put the devs outside of those restrictions15:38
nubaewith ltsp in it15:38
sbalneavWhat restrictions?!?!15:38
Ahmucksheesh, do i really have to do a readback and pull up all the conversations of yesterday?15:38
nubaemaybe the one I just mentioned, though I doubt its a restriction15:38
Ahmuckah, so edubuntu is dead in it's own right?15:39
Ahmuckand conical has had no influence over it's direction15:39
sbalneavI wasn't here for any conversation yesterday, but I fail to see how we're restricted in ANYTHING, other than too much work to do for too few people.15:40
sbalneavWhich is why I'd suggest tying ourselves to an LTS release, to allow the few people we HAVE more time to work on things, rather than the frantic 6 month time schedule.15:41
nubaewell, we're not exactly being praised by canonical, in other words, it doesnt seem to care about edubuntu too much15:41
nubaeor do what opensuse does which is create snapshots on a very regular basis and ask people to rsync to the latest dvd (which includes everything educational) about 2 gigs15:41
nubaethis way incremental images can be downloaded... this is for livedvds, which in my opinion is really really necessary for edubuntu15:42
nubaesome kind of theme applied to a livecd/dvd that really shows its an educational project with a nice choice of both server and client applications15:43
sbalneavI'm fine with the idea of producing an actual distro.  I'm EVEN fine with saying we must be distributed on a DVD.  One of ogra's biggest headaches was trying to fit everything on a cd.  If we're "community" based now, and someone's willing to do the work on producing the dvd images, I think it would be a good thing.15:43
Ahmuckwhen does the meeting start?  i'm us central15:43
Ahmuckwhat was the problem with creating cd's ?15:44
sbalneavFriday at 12:00 central was mentioned, although, with the exception of LaserJock, we've kind of got most of the people here now :)15:44
sbalneavAhmuck: 2 problems15:45
Ahmuckgood, pre-meeting is running ? :)15:45
sbalneav1) Canonical's policy of "must be cd and not dvd", which, as a community project, we're not bound to.15:45
sbalneavnow, anyway15:45
sbalneav2) finding someone to do the work.15:46
sbalneav2) being the central edubuntu problem in general :)15:46
Ahmuckwhat is wrong with getting it on a cd?  that's the question i meant to ask15:46
sbalneavToo much stuff.15:46
Ahmuckhow so.  it's simply a theme with additional programs.  why can't the additional programs be downloaded after the install?15:47
sbalneavAll base ubuntu programs + langpacks + edubuntu software > 700 mb15:47
Ahmuckany reason not to have a net based install?15:47
sbalneavAhmuck: What do you do for people with no internet access?15:47
sbalneavSay, people in Brazil15:47
nubaewe can make 2 things, a dvd that is the main thing we concentrate on and then a really speedy thinned down maybe even xfce based edu live cd that can be put onto usb stick too15:47
sbalneavor in south africa15:48
Ahmuckr people in brazil, if they don't have internet going to have dvd ?15:48
nubaepeople in Brazil generally have internet15:48
sbalneavDVD may be EASIER to get than internet15:48
nubaeits more in places like Nepal, Mongolia15:48
Ahmuckbut won't do a thing if you don't have a dvd player15:48
sbalneavnubae: in the major urban centers, yes15:48
sbalneavin the more rural areas no.15:49
Ahmuckeven in our area, people are still using comptuers that only have cdrom15:49
alkisgI wonder, if people don't have internet, isn't it easier to send them a dvd with full language support than for them to download it over the internet? Cause the CD doesn't have e.g. greek lang support...15:49
nubaewell, there they dont have money for a computer either usually :-)15:49
alkisgSame for progs15:49
sbalneavnubae: No, they have computers15:49
alkisg(hi sbalneav, long time no see :))15:49
Ahmucki'd like to see a cd with the core, and then a second cd with additional programs15:49
sbalneavI've been to brazil twice, and I'm going there again in 5 weeks for FISL15:49
nubaeyeah, I think its important that edubuntu be a distro for those reasons15:49
nubaeoh no... just 2 different approaches15:50
sbalneavhey hey alkisg nubae Ahmuck highvoltage etc etc if I forgot any hello's !:)15:50
nubaeone would be to enable slower older computers to run a edubuntu image15:50
Ahmuckfor example, i'm kubuntu and use ubuntu ltsp in the lab.  however we download things like scribus, gimp, etc. both in the office and in the lab15:50
nubaeand the other is the nice jam packed dvd with all the best edu on it15:50
sbalneavAhmuck: That's what we've got now.  Ubuntu plus edubuntu addon cd15:50
nubaethat has to go, please tell me that is a possibility15:51
Ahmuckcorrect, u have ubuntu on a cd plus the add on edubuntu.  why not edubuntu with an addon cd for the programs15:51
sbalneavthe problem that nubae points out is, if you want to SHOW someone edubuntu, you can't.15:51
highvoltageAhmuck: as far as I understand we have less restrictions now than ever15:51
sbalneavyou have to install ubuntu, then install the addon cd.15:51
* Ahmuck needs to look at the addon cd15:51
nubaeso we create 2 images... one for cds, and one for dvd15:51
nubaeusb sticks are becoming ever more popular to load from too15:52
nubaeespecially in schools15:52
sbalneavSure, sounds good15:52
nubaeso that is another area to focus on15:52
Ahmucki'd really like to see edubuntu on a cd with ltsp as a option, but without the programs.  the program can be just that a "program" cd15:52
sbalneav(and I'm yelling purely for comic effect here)15:52
Ahmucki'll be glad to look at that this week.15:53
Ahmuckbtw, i know no programming15:53
sbalneavI'm more "upstream".  producing cd's is more of a packaging thing, and I think my talents (! such as they are) are better spent fixing bugs in LTSP, Documentation, and programs like Sabayon.15:54
sbalneavall the "packaging policy" stuff just confuses me.15:54
alkisgIf edubuntu is going to become a live dvd, I'm willing to spend several weeks on it (casper or whatever it takes) to help out.15:54
Ahmuckk, let me ask a different question.  what is edubuntu?15:55
nubaefine, well, I understand packaging and iso creation quite well so I am glad to work on that15:55
sbalneavEdubuntu, to me, should be "a classroom on a (cd|dvd)"15:55
nubaeits really not rocket science at all15:55
Ahmuckwhat is a classroom on a cd?15:56
nubaethere are many automated tools to get that out there15:56
Ahmuckis there a definitive list of what a classroom is?15:56
nubaeyup, themed cd with basic edu apps15:56
Ahmuckis there a list of edu apps?15:56
sbalneavA combination of an operating system, educational programs, and a thin client solution with management tools bundled in.15:56
nubaewell, I send Laserjock a long list of includable apps that seemed to work great in the classroom15:56
Ahmuckare we talking childrens apps, or classroom apps?15:57
nubaeboth Ahmuck15:57
bencrisford_sorry to be awkward - what are we talkin about?15:57
bencrisford_i only just got home15:57
nubaethere is a server component side (moodle, class, mahara, koha, LAMP stack) and there is the python activities15:57
sbalneavnubae: You may *think* it's not rocket science, but beleive me, don't sell yourself short.  I think all the "rules and regulations" surrounding packaging are VERY complex to me, and I admire anyone who can make heads or tails of them.15:57
nubaesuch as gcompris, childsplay, etc etc15:57
nubaesbalneav: I use opensusebuild service to package sugar, and we spec files, no policy there, which makes it a great deal easier and faster15:58
nubaebut raelly, its just about knowing which deps and the name of the deps15:59
sbalneavAhmuck: I'd say, currently, edubuntu's focus has been on K-1215:59
nubaeas they vary from distro to distro15:59
* bencrisford_ wonders what he missed :(16:00
sbalneavbencrisford_: In a word, we're trying to re-kickstart edubuntu development.16:00
bencrisford_ah yeah :) weve been discussing this for days though16:00
bencrisford_even weeks16:00
bencrisford_i only been here for a few days though16:00
sbalneavMaybe we could attack the problem in this way:16:01
sbalneavLets do a skills inventory of everyone here, what parts they're willing/wanting to work on, and then fit things out from there...16:02
sbalneavI'll go first16:02
sbalneavFor bencrisford_'s benefit, I'm Scott Balneaves, mainly with the LTSP project.  I'm interested in 1) working on the LTSP thin client side of things 2) working on both LTSP documentation AND the edubuntu handbook, 3) Fixing bugs in management apps like Sabayon, and 4) Fixing general bugs in apps, either C or Python are my specialties.16:03
bencrisford_ok nice :)16:04
nubaehmmm ok, should I go next?16:04
sbalneavIt's all you, dude :)16:04
bencrisford_mind if i jump in next?16:05
bencrisford_My name's Ben Crisford, i've been contributing to ubuntu for a while, and working on a couple of projects (including eskole which is related).  I am fairly experienced with bug triaging and marketing, and slightly more experienced with documentation.16:06
bencrisford_I have skills in web development16:06
bencrisford_and some software development ability16:06
nubaeI'm David Van Assche, also worked quite closely with LTSP project, especially the ltsp manual, which actually is very relevant to ubuntu as we know, and I am pretty good at shell coding, having created the fat client script, and I know php fairly well so web side based stuff is not out of the wquestion either. I'm the oficial sugar package manager for opensuse16:06
nubaeSugar is my main focus, and would be for ubuntu too16:07
bencrisford_Yeah id like to get involved in whatever I can16:07
bencrisford_hopefully some bug fixes16:07
nubaewell, that and getting a nice stack of edu apps running16:07
nubaebugfixing and hacking at code I don't really like unless I'm forced to do that16:07
sbalneavnubae and I, without putting too fine a point on it, have really produced the first, and pretty much only, ltsp5 doco :)16:07
nubaehehe, yeah indeed16:08
alkisgAlkis Georgopoulos - I'm a Greek teacher using Ubuntu/LTSP for the last two years, experienced windows :( programmer, still new to linux administration/bug reporting-fixing/packaging but I'm learning fast, willing to spend a lot of time on whatever it takes (e.g. casper, live ltsp stuff) to make edubuntu a live dvd.16:08
sbalneavalkisg: go, dude16:08
sbalneavwhoops, you're too fast for me16:08
alkisgHeh :)16:08
nubaeso, another question, what archs do we want to target if it becomes a distro...16:09
nubaeI'd imagine one possibility would be to take netbook remix and educationalise it16:09
sbalneavAhmuck, then highvoltage16:09
nubaethat could be the smaller cd16:09
sbalneaveunr would be cool16:09
nubaeyeah it would16:10
nubaeit would give us an original product apart from the dvd16:10
nubaesomething to give us the edge again in the distro scene16:10
bencrisford_Why don't we think about a WUBI/portable ubuntu style thing, where you can run edubuntu and it would give you an educationalised main menu for you to move around16:10
bencrisford_that would be a starting point ?16:10
nubaethats whaat netbook remix is bencrisford_16:11
bencrisford_lol sorry16:11
sbalneavOne of the FIRST things I think we should decide, is who we're tied to.  The 6 month releases? Or the LTS with some backports?16:12
bencrisford_depends on how many developers/contributors we get16:13
bencrisford_perhaps we should wait for the UDS16:13
nubaewhy either of them... we could say we'll release something when we're at 0.516:13
nubaeu know... go into beta mode16:13
highvoltagesbalneav: hmm?16:13
nubaeand after that go with LTS indeed16:13
sbalneavhighvoltage: what are your skills, and what are you interested in working on.16:14
bencrisford_not a bad idea :)16:14
sbalneavjust for the record, so we know where we're at.16:14
sbalneavnubae: ok, but if you want to produce a live cd, what do we use?  Jaunty? Or Hardy?16:15
nubaeJaunty, and then go with the next LTS16:15
nubaewe need to make sure we've got the latest libs and stuff for many of the new and upcoming edu apps/projects16:16
nubaehardy would make us again stuck in the past16:16
sbalneavOK, sounds reasonable.16:16
sbalneavI'm willing to suspect most teachers will want to stick with LTS long term16:17
nubaefor sure16:17
alkisgYes, as long as they don't miss important stuff, e.g. some new flash version that's fast with ltsp and doesn't hang up :P16:17
nubaebut we must make it easy for them to upgrade, and seperate apps by subject/theeme16:18
nubaewell, we can be in beta to begin with addding everything we want16:18
nubaeuntil we are happy...16:18
sbalneavand if we get ourselves up to the point where we're tracking LTS, it gives US time to work on things rather than the frenetic 6 month cycle, which, quite frankly, I just don't have the time to commit to.16:18
nubaethen we go along with LTS16:18
nubaeright, me either, but in the beginning we're gonna have to put some good time in16:19
nubaemostly its just creating metapackages16:19
nubaeie, science, maths, languages, etc etc16:19
sbalneavI will go on record, right now, that if we're going to try to make a go of this, I'll find the time.16:19
nubaethen we decide to carry both kde and gnome, and Sugar as windows managers so there is greater choice16:19
nubaeadd LTSP and LDAP support16:19
dtraskamen to LDAP16:20
alkisgLive LTSP, or only after the hd installation?16:20
sbalneavldap's a big one.16:20
nubaewell, opensuse has it integrated really nicely16:20
sbalneavDid opensuse just pick a "standard" way to do it, and build on that?16:21
nubaeso we should look at how we can copy what they've done. They do it through yast, but in fact their entire user managament is really great. User management is something REALLY lacking ubuntu...16:21
nubaedo u think we could put LDAP support into sabayon?16:21
sbalneavnubae: it's in there already16:21
sbalneavit's just not normally compiled in.16:21
nubaewell, they just look like guis to what is being done underneath, but because they have 90% prefilled in, LDAP is really easy to install16:21
sbalneavI am still 100% committed to getting sabayon working.16:21
dtraskAre we talking LDAP on the client side....server side....or both?16:22
dtraskGood....that's one thing I've always felt was lacking in Linux in education16:22
nubaeyes both for sure16:22
nubaeespecially if its LTSP16:23
dtraskI use it now, but it's kludgy16:23
dtrasknot for novices16:23
nubaewell, like I said, its just about copying what opensuse has done there, and letting sbalneav hack at sabayon16:23
dtraskI have full faith in sbalneav16:23
nubaeit could be integrated with the user management interface to create something really nice16:23
sbalneavdtrask: Boy, have I got YOU fooled :)16:24
nubaeso sabayon+pessulus+usermanagment interface would be something really nice16:24
sbalneavnubae: the standard user-management tools REALLY need to be made LDAP aware16:24
nubaethat could then allow for contorl of groups, themes, ldap, etc16:24
nubaeyep they do16:24
sbalneavAnd *that*s one of the things I'd want to focus on first16:25
nubaewhich is why we should try and see if we cant laterally combine some of this stuff and steal code from the other distros doing it the right way :-)16:25
nubaeyep, indeed without that, we dont have much16:25
sbalneavas it's (one of) our most GLARING shortcomings now.16:25
nubaewith it, a revolution takes place16:25
nubaetotally agree with you16:25
nubaeusing fedora or opensuse that hits u almost instantly...16:26
sbalneavtouching NOTHING else, if we could (within say a 6 month timeframe) produce:16:26
nubaeu just notice u-m there sitting sad and alone, totally unaware of anything but .passwd/.shadow and .group16:26
sbalneav1) A live DVD with the existing edubuntu program set...16:26
nubaea live cd with netbook remix16:27
sbalneav2) that integrated a WORKING solution for sabayon+pesselus+gui useradd+ldap+bulk user csv add support16:27
dtraskhey brendan16:27
nubaesbalneav: I'm with you16:27
AhmuckI'm Dale.  I'm a user with some admin capabilities.  I run an independent ubuntu ltsp community lab.  I have the ability to do user testing.  My time is limited by me and what I decide to do during the course of the week.  I've done some scripting, but that is the extent of my programming.  I tend to organize large community projects.  I'm a starter, and then move on to the next thing after getting a foundation in place.16:28
sbalneavand 3) a REASONABLE up to date handbook + ltsp docs16:28
sbalneavwe'd be LIGHYEARS ahead of where we are now.16:28
nubaeu know with a little shell scripting and zenity we could cheat a little16:28
sbalneavnubae: Sure16:28
sbalneavI'm not above cheating :)16:28
nubaecool, well then I see the work infront of us... I will make sure sugar can be packaged for ubuntu, and thats easy enough since we're automating to make .debs from open build service16:29
nubaeSame goes for any other packages that we feel dont need oficial maintaining...16:30
AhmuckI do a lot of linux promotion, but am making decisions this month if i should be staying with an ubuntu ltsp distro.  i like the theme in edubuntu, and some programs, but prefer to choose what applications are needed.  we do have children frequent the labs, but i need support for windows apps16:30
nubaeso... we're kind of saying, we are going to be much more relaxed about rules and regulations16:30
sbalneavnubae: certainly, for a much faster ldap user add tool, it may be faster to just implement something in python GTK that does the ldap aware adds, rather than trying to hack something into the Gnome user add tools.16:30
nubaefor example... flash and pdf will be integrated from the start, gasp!16:30
nubaesbalneav: there are lots of proggies already... we just need to find the right one16:31
nubaeI'm just saying shell scripting and zenity can be the glue16:31
nubaelateral software architecture16:32
sbalneavAnd for now, jaunty's going to be the base we're going to work on.16:32
nubaeyep because we are officially in beta, we can even use karmic packages if we want16:32
Ahmuckhaving a full distro with edu apps doesn't work for me.  having a themed distro with open office, scribus, gimp, wine (for artrage), and selectable edu apps works better16:33
nubaeit just depends on what works and what doesnt16:33
Ahmuckis karmic the LTS release ?16:33
Ahmuckah, and content filtering16:33
nubaeAhmuck: there will be 2 possibilities, a netbook remix-edu, or a big dvd with everything educational we ever wanted, both backend and frontend16:33
Ahmuckit doesn't make sense to have an edu with content filtering16:34
nubaethats dansguardian, we can definetly look into inlcuding that and squid as default16:34
dtraskhey....to add something here....We're about to launch the Open 1-to-1 initiative (www.open1to1.org) using ubuntu (UNR) as our OS and setting up a community driven initiative to support 1 to 1 computing in schools.  In Maine (USA) we currently have an Apple based 1-to-1 initiative, but now there is an opportunity to get a foothold with Ubuntu and netbooks/low cost laptops as the state has kinda' dropped the ball on the latest expansion and schools are "opti16:34
dtrasksorry to dump that in...no easy way to drop it in the conversation at the "right time"16:34
nubaedidnt finish though it stops at opti16:35
Ahmuckdtrask: i've intensley interested in that link16:35
nubaea lot of what has been done for the XS server (that will work with the xos) can be taken and included into the classroom server experience16:35
dtraskhmmm...for me the whole thing shows up....I'll repost in 2 parts16:36
dtraskhey....to add something here....We're about to launch the Open 1-to-1 initiative (http://www.open1to1.org/) using ubuntu (UNR) as our OS and setting up a community driven initiative to support 1 to 1 computing in schools.  In Maine (USA) we currently have an Apple based 1-to-1 initiative, but now there is an opportunity to get a foothold with Ubuntu and netbooks/low cost laptops as the state has kinda' dropped the ball on the latest expansion and schools16:36
dtraskMaine already has a strong Linux/LTSP/Edubuntu base...so we're putting together an organization to support the "rebel alliance" so to speak.  Letting you know...and that we could use some help (reciprocal of course) with image development....tech support on forums...etc.  This could end up with a large install base that can be used as an example or springboard for the future.16:36
dtraskthere...can you see it all now?16:36
sbalneavI've got a meeting here at $work in a few minutes I've got to prepare for.  I'll be afk for a couple of hours.16:37
sbalneavbe back later16:37
Ahmucki'm afk as well till this evening16:37
Ahmuckaway from keyboard16:37
dtraskaway from keyboard?16:37
dtraskgot it...thx16:38
dtraskIf any of you are interested in discussing Open 1to1 more...shoot me an email at dtrask_AT_vcsvikings.org16:39
dtraskIt has lots of exciting possibilities16:39
dtraskand since we're building on an existing and very large one-to-one project...it could go very well16:40
dtraskand then, of course, we hope to be able to help everyone around the world implement 1-to-1 projects in schools16:40
dtraskbrendan0powers: did you see the stuff above about LDAP?16:41
nubaewell we shuold really use the alternate cd as a base16:42
nubaesince that has the f4 option for ltsp16:42
nubaeI've got to go too though, work beckons16:42
dtraskwork?  what's that?  ;-)16:43
dtraskme too....and lunch beckons too16:43
* dtrask hungry16:43
brendan0powersdtrask: nope16:45
dtraskbrendan0powers: just sent you the chat in email16:46
brendan0powersI'l read it16:47
Ahmuck_fwiw, in my area, we are converting users to linux on the average of 1 a week.  that may not seem like a lot, but we don't have the numbers that the cities doe16:49
alkisgnubae: alternate? no live stuff?16:51
alkisgafaik, debian is going to switch to a gui installer...16:52
nubaewell alternative with live16:59
nubaeso we'd move the f4 option to the live dvd/cd, and allow even ltsping from a live distro.... opensuse does this and it works, its also a cool way to show it working just from a live cd, dvd or usb stick17:00
nubaeI'm even gonna say we should make the easy-ltsp gui the main way of editing  lts.conf17:02
alkisgnubae: the alternate cd is based on a different technology than the live desktop cd17:02
alkisgSo they can't be compined, only one of them can be selected17:03
nubaeright.... really we'll be basing it off the live dvd17:03
alkisgOK. And, if LTSP is on the live dvd, then there's no point in an F4 option17:04
nubaeand we'll have a fully installed and functional ltsp server using the easy-ltsp gui for management17:04
nubaeso then there will be the installer that installs either with or without classroom server17:04
nubaeie, acts like  server, acts like a desktop17:04
alkisgAFAIK, whatever runs on a live dvd is going to be installed unless some script uninstalls it17:05
alkisgSo if e.g. LTSP is on the live dvd, then an uninstaller should be written for those that do not want it.17:05
alkisgBut someone should read on casper for this...17:06
nubaebut I dont think we need seperate cds/dvds for the user experience. In my opinion being able to show off ltsp and the edubunut edu apps + edu themes and colours and the great ldap+user-manager+sabayon+pessulus is what we want17:06
nubaealkisg: right, we will add a bunch of scripts using zenity that customise the system.17:06
alkisgI fully agree with that, but I thought that some people wanted the dvd to be able to install workstations, too17:06
Ahmucktherein lies my problem.  needing the ability to pick our apps17:10
nubaeit will do both ahmuck17:14
nubaeand the remix-edu will be even for small devices and phones17:14
nubaeor older systems17:14
nubaewe will add the option of sending  a fatclient image of remix-edu to the workstations17:15
Ahmucknubae: i'd be interested in how you create the cd/dvd.  i'd like to do a custom *untu cd/dvd for local.  ie top apps and a kansas theme17:15
nubaewe could even add standard images for kde and xfce17:15
nubaewe need to catch up to opensuse17:16
Ahmuckopensuse is that good ?17:17
nubaethey already have many predefined images to install, either via nomad where if the cable is pulled out, u dont loose the connection, and AOE, which seems to be slightly faster and more efficient for fat images... They also do fatclient clustering...17:17
nubaeright now... its amazing17:17
nubaereally, everything is easy to install and maintain17:17
nubaevery little command line stuff17:17
nubaeI've been using it as my main desktop os for a good 2 months now, and it hasn't crashed on me, there are tons of good options, and the gui management possibilities from users to groups, samba to ldap, and ltsp.... just make it all work17:18
nubaeoh and the latest set of sugar tools too17:18
Ahmuck_so, i'm about to ask a very nasty question.  is there a reason to develop edubuntu?>17:21
nubaewell yes of course17:25
nubaebecause ubuntu is a great base17:25
nubaethis is not a race, but a collaboration17:26
LaserJockhello Edubuntu land!17:58
Lnshey LaserJock =)18:01
LaserJockhi Lns18:03
highvoltagehey LaserJock18:03
LaserJockhow's the business going?18:03
highvoltageLaserJock: we missed you, have you been busy with your dissertation?18:03
LnsIt's going OK, planning for the future!18:03
LaserJockhighvoltage: very very busy18:03
LaserJockhighvoltage: did a job interview and walked at commencement18:04
LaserJockhad family visiting and worked on cars18:04
LaserJockvery busy lately :-)18:04
highvoltageLaserJock: we're having a meeting at 18:00 UTC tomorrow, will you be able to join?18:05
highvoltageLaserJock: you said before that that's a good time for you generally18:05
LaserJockoh, darn18:05
LaserJockactually I have a meeting with my advisor at 18:0018:06
LaserJockI miscalculated the time diff, I thought I'd be OK18:06
highvoltageLaserJock: any other time tomorrow evening?18:11
* bencrisford_ is new here LaserJock18:12
LaserJockhi bencrisford_18:13
bencrisford_hi =]18:13
LaserJockhighvoltage: would 20:00 UTC be OK?18:13
LaserJockor is that too late for the UTC+2 crowd?18:13
LaserJockor for that matter, I wonder if you guys should just go on without me18:14
bencrisford_sorry to be awkward - whats this?  ive only had snippets of the conversation because of my internet18:14
bencrisford_whats at 8 UTC tomoz?18:14
LaserJockbencrisford_: we're scheduling a "future of Edubuntu" IRC meeting18:14
bencrisford_ah :)18:14
bencrisford_weve been talking about it for days18:15
bencrisford_but i thought we were gonna wait for UDS?18:15
highvoltageLaserJock: sorry I was confused, I meant on Friday, not tomorrow18:15
LaserJockoh, right18:16
LaserJockmaybe that's why I thought it was OK18:16
LaserJockhighvoltage: yep, I'm good for Friday at 18:00 UTC I think18:16
highvoltageso is 18:00 UTC on friday evenin ok?18:16
highvoltageok cool, I'll send it like that to the list18:16
LaserJockhighvoltage: you can't say "evening" or you'll get me confused18:17
LaserJock18:00 UTC will be 11am for me ;-)18:17
bencrisford_LaserJock: IMO we should spread the word about it a bit, get some new prospective developers to turn up18:18
bencrisford_so everyones ideas are heard18:18
highvoltageLaserJock: heh18:18
LaserJockbencrisford_: I'll blog it on Planet Ubuntu18:18
LaserJockand if the email goes out to edubuntu-devel, -users and ubuntu-devel I think that should be fairly good coverage18:19
nubaeLaserJock: we've been discussing how to move forward with edubuntu, and some of us were imagining it becoming a distro again18:23
nubaelike the other edu projects18:23
nubaethe fact that its an addon seems to be something that really is not understandable and as much sense as it makes, it somehow doesn't, if u know what I mean18:24
nubaeIf we had a live dvd to show off with lots of universe and multiverse apps, working ltsp with gui, and a better user management system, we'd be half way there18:24
nubaethen the possibility of launching other window managers would be another great thing (xfce, kde, sugar)18:25
LaserJocknubae: what does openSUSE Edu do? I thought they were just a repo18:25
nubaenah way man... its a whole distro, and its very progressive18:25
nubaetake a look at the team18:25
LaserJockso you can actually download a CD/DVD?18:26
nubaeits gonna hurt a bit to see the contributor list18:26
Lnsnubae: you sure love touting opensuse in here =p18:26
nubaethere are various different images, based on kde, gnome, and/or sugar18:26
* Lns wonders if he's working for novell18:26
nubaeLns: I was asked...18:26
nubaeand in my opinion and others we should be moving in the same direction they are18:27
LaserJockwe need to think carefully here18:27
nubaeits a good example of a project where the educational side is clearly understood and works quite well18:27
nubaeyeah I agree18:27
nubaewhat me and sbalneav were saying before is, we could do 2 things18:27
nubaecreate a remix-edu that works on lightweight machines18:28
nubaeand create a whopper dvd that has a nice selection of everything both server side and client side18:28
nubaeof course we'd need the people to maintain such a beast18:28
nubaebut it would be better than where we are at the moment, which is in a dying project18:28
nubaeif it wasn't for you, the last 2-3 releases wouldn't even have existed18:29
LnsI'm honestly wondering why people are so tied up with making entire distros just to make it suitable for a certain use case18:29
nubaeso obviously we need to take drastic measures18:29
LaserJockok, but there are considerations here18:29
highvoltageLaserJock:  you don't mind if I blog about it too do you?18:29
LaserJockhighvoltage: certainly not18:29
nubaeLns: the point is, if I want to install edubuntu in a school, I need an example18:29
LaserJock1 consideration is that it is far from trivial to get new .iso/images hosted18:30
LnsWhat ever happened to simply making a very easy to follow guide to configuring your system?18:30
nubaeand even if not, a live dvd/cd/usb makes total sense in schools18:30
nubaethats how sugar is being majorly promoted... sugar on a stick18:30
Lnsok, i see that makes sense18:30
nubaewell, we need edubuntu on a stick18:31
nubaeor on a cd at least18:31
LaserJockCD won't work18:31
LaserJockit needs to be a stick18:31
Lnsbut still, how many teachers are apt to boot to a usbstick/dvd? Will they understand what's happening? If LTSP is integrated, will they know what to do?18:31
nubaeand I think doing remix-edu would be really cool18:31
LnsBasically maybe my question is, who specifically are we marketing to ? IT Admins at schools, teachers, ?18:31
nubaeLns: no, thats a sysadmins job, doing the lts part18:32
LaserJockLns: I think the Edubuntu-on-a-stick would be for marketing18:32
LaserJocki.e. "this is what you get when you  install Edubuntu"18:32
nubaebut we also need to expand what we're offering18:32
LnsWho's gonna pay for the usb sticks?18:32
Lnsor will it be a usb image downloadable?18:32
LaserJockLns: Edubuntu would provide the images18:33
nubaewe can't continue having 'just the officially supported apps by canonical'18:33
LaserJocklike the netbook remix for instance18:33
LaserJocknubae: we can but we should have more18:33
nubaenetbookremix-edu would be a totally original product18:33
LaserJockwe could fairly easily limit ourselves to Main apps for a USB stick18:33
nubaesomething we could really compete with18:33
nubaeand then offering fatclient images of various types that run over ltsp would also give us an edge18:34
LaserJockwell, we need to really look at feasibility here18:34
nubaeI'm just thinking how we can make a difference18:34
LaserJockwe have *barely* maintained an addon cd18:34
* Lns thinks we should get together a video team and produce YT vids18:34
nubaethats easily done... as long as we have the space on the dvd18:34
nubaeLaserJock: well, its a problem of not enough people, and if that problem now seems to be going away and people are comitting themselves as it seems they are18:35
LaserJockwell, we need enough of the right people18:35
LaserJockit's really really not as trivial as people are saying to maintain .iso/images in Ubuntu18:36
LaserJockthere's lots of QA involved and you have to be on top of things18:36
LaserJockso we should be careful about making targets that we are in no position to be able to implement18:36
LaserJocknot that we should ditch long-term goals18:37
nubaesure learning objects would be great... on opensuse-edu we've created a moodle instance and mahara and we are focusing on putting the wiki stuff all through there instead, to foster and encourage moodle's usage18:37
LaserJockbut rebuilding Edubuntu *has* to start small or it won't leave the ground18:37
nubaeLaserJock: the problem is we dont really have a distro and unless we have one its gonna die out... I know u understand that18:37
* Lns sighs18:38
nubaethis idea of addons is great practically, but very bad in every other sense18:38
nubaeI mean, we even came to the conclusion the other day that they might as well just install the packages from the ubuntu repo18:38
nubaethat just makes edubuntu a bunch of metapackages18:39
nubaeis that what we want the world to think edubuntu is?18:39
nubaea bundling of already existing apps?18:39
alkisg(08:30:10 μμ) Lns: What ever happened to simply making a very easy to follow guide to configuring your system? => I've made one, and it's 100 pages. Not easy for a teacher to follow. With a live dvd similar to what nubae proposed, a teacher can see the end result in his lab with no guide, and install it with a very small guide.18:39
LnsCan we learn at all from Debian's "Tasks" during install? I.E. LAMP, "web server" "file server" etc18:39
LaserJockLns: we already have them18:40
LaserJockwe have LTSP, Edubuntu Desktop, and Edubuntu KDE Desktop tasks18:40
LaserJockyou can, hopefully, install them from the Jaunty Ubuntu DVD18:40
LnsLaserJock: k..18:40
nubaeDebian also makes many mistakes though. One example is Sugar... they are stuck at 0.82 because of one maintainer, meaning we too are stuck at 0.82, while the rest of the world uses the latest Sugar... basically its another lost opportunity to promote edubuntu18:40
LaserJockbut that doesn't mean all of debian is bad18:41
Lnsisn't that what PPAs/unofficial repos are for?18:41
nubaeLaserJock: so do u agreee we should go back to being a distro?18:41
LaserJockI'm not positive yet18:41
LaserJockI *want* to do that, but I'm not sure how feasible it is in the short term18:42
nubaeLns: we are creating the debian packages through opensuse's build service now :-)18:42
LaserJockwe *could* have gotten Sugar 0.84 in Jaunty18:42
nubaethere's irony in that, but at least the ubuntu users who want to try the latest sugar will be able to18:42
Lnsnubae: oook?18:42
nubaeno we couldnt18:42
nubaedebian's 0.83 (the dev version of sugar) doesnt even run read or write18:43
LaserJockbut that has  *nothing* to do with Ubuntu18:43
nubaeand its because of a debian maintainer decision18:43
isforinsectsAh, showed up at the right time18:43
LaserJockwe didn't have 0.84 because people dropped the ball18:43
nubaeright, we are bound by a stupid policy18:43
nubaenah... they couldnt work with debian maintainer18:44
nubaethats what really happened18:44
LaserJockI *had* the approvals right there but the people who were doing the work didn't get back to me18:44
LaserJockthe 0.84 packages had a python problem that wasn't fixed18:44
LaserJocktherefor I couldn't approve the upload, that's what happened18:44
nubaewell that too, but in the end even if glucose had worked, the main activities still dont18:44
nubaewhat we need to look at, is why its working for other distros18:45
nubaewhy is F11 and Mandriva now ahead of us in the edu game?18:45
LaserJockbecause people are there working on it18:45
nubaeand opensuse so far ahead its not even fun to mention18:45
bencrisford_LaserJock: I think we should post meeting details to the ubuntu-devel mailing lists also, so we can get in some fresh developers ?18:45
LaserJockwe don't lack for ideas, or infrastructure18:45
Lnsnubae: we get it, you are an opensuse fanboy..no use repeating yourself, jeez =p18:46
nubaedebian-edu or skolelinux are stuck at ltsp 4.2 due to their massive deployments18:46
LaserJockwe just can't seem to get people to really step up18:46
LaserJockbencrisford_: yeah, although historically there has been little interest so I don't expect too much18:46
bencrisford_I'm interested :/18:46
nubaeLns: I am being realistic here, I am no fanboy of any distro, I have Fedora and ubuntu installed on my laptop18:46
bencrisford_im willing to put alot into this project18:47
nubaeI use opensuse-edu on my desktop18:47
Lnssince our own community here is obviously much smaller than others' right now, we need to focus on small goals that make sense for the future. we need a solid base before we build an empire18:47
LaserJockLns: agreed18:47
nubaeso when I see people saying hey hello can I help, we need to tell them what they can do, but before that we must have it clear for ourselves what we want this community to be18:47
nubaeis it a distro, a set of packages, some themese?18:48
LaserJockit is very valuable to look at Fedora and openSUSE and see what they're doing right, but we also need to recognize that we aren't them18:48
nubaewhat the hell are we18:48
Lnswe are people who want to see ubuntu and educational applications in schools18:48
Lnsthat doesn't mean we need a distro18:48
nubaeso then lets talk about what that means technicaly, since we are all pretty much devs in here18:49
Lnsit doesn't mean we need a huge community right now to "keep up with the jones'"18:49
nubaewell, I believe it does18:49
Lnsi'm not a dev18:49
Lnsi'm a sysadmin :)18:49
highvoltageLaserJock: going full-distro for karmic might be a bit soon, judging by factors that you and ogra listed18:49
nubaeI think edubuntu should have 2 versions, a lightweight for older machines and a nice chunky one with everything educational in it18:49
LnsI can barely write bash scripts =p18:49
nubaewe can pick and choose what to put in there based on our experiences of running the software18:50
highvoltagemaybe it should be a target for 10.04, since it will be LTS18:50
nubaehighvoltage: I agree, we should go back to beta mode, and start building from the bottom up18:50
nubaetake a live image and base the edu on that, both remix and normal18:50
highvoltagenubae: *nod*. I also agree with the lightweight options. bothe xfce and lxde has its merits18:51
LnsWhat kinds of relationships do we have with all of the upstream edu app devs?18:52
LnsHow do we interact with them?18:52
highvoltageLns: afaik LaserJock has been in regular contact with kde edu people and some of the science projects18:52
nubaeand I've been highly involved with sugar18:52
nubaeso both of those roads lead to new groupings of people18:53
highvoltageI think we can pull morgs in a bit closer as well18:53
highvoltage(gtg, bbl)18:53
nubaeAt sugar camp, people were all asking, what happned to ubuntu18:53
nubaewhat cant I run sugar on it18:53
nubaeIt was just sad to have to say, well because of politics and people it never happened18:54
isforinsectsIf you would like help with recruitment, I could probably help.18:54
isforinsectsIf you care about getting sugar into ubuntu, I can get you XO's18:55
alkisgI know of a lot of Greek teachers that abandonded edubuntu when it stopped being a distro. Also I've heard of a lot of them asking for an educational distro, and there were even some attempts to make an ubuntu-edu-remix. I think if edubuntu became a distro again, some of them would try to contribute to it.18:55
sbalneavBack from meeting18:56
isforinsects<-- is from OLPC18:56
bencrisford1sorry about that18:57
bencrisford1LaserJock: Did you see the mail I posted to the list?18:57
isforinsectsThe Fedora User Group applied for a large stack of XO's for OLPC/Sugar contributors.  Around 100.18:58
LaserJockbencrisford1: I'm not sure, what's the name?18:58
LaserJockisforinsects: I saw that, I was pretty amazed that OLPC would ship that many?18:58
bencrisford1i sent it a few days ago18:58
bencrisford1basically just said my skills, and that im willing to put alot into edubuntu18:58
LaserJockisforinsects: certainly some XO's would help pump the PR and community18:58
LaserJockisforinsects: one of the problems I've seen is making sure people can test stuff out18:59
LaserJockalkisg: do you know why they abandoned it?18:59
LaserJockalso, I got in touch with the ZaReason people18:59
LaserJockwho build Ubuntu machines (like System76) and they have a choice of having Edubuntu preinstalled19:00
nubaeisforinsects: u weren't at sugarcamp were u?19:00
LaserJockand I asked them what we could do to help them out and they said having a single installation medium would be very helpful19:00
nubaewhy do we need xos though?19:00
isforinsectsYou probably saw that the next revision of the OLPC spin of sugar is going to be a full Fedora+Sugar+Gnome19:00
nubaehow is that possibly gonna help?19:00
alkisgYes, they don't think an add-on is useful. It's easier to just install the package from synaptic. But they don't even do that, because it gets them those kiddish icons and theme. So they end up selecting manually the edu apps they need.19:00
isforinsectsOLPC isn't stuck on that decision.19:01
nubaealkisg: is a good example of someone in the field19:01
isforinsectsnubae: no, I was stuck in cambridge19:01
nubaeah, too bad would have been nice to meet you19:01
isforinsectsI'm adam/CanoeBerry's roommate btw.19:01
nubaeIm the package maintainer for opensuse19:01
isforinsectsIndeed, I've seen you around, hello.19:02
LaserJockwell, mostly the XOs would provide some community-building fodder19:02
nubaeoh... hehe, Adam is a great guy, had some really good conversations with him about szupport infrastructure19:02
LaserJockand get Sugar out there in Ubuntu19:02
bencrisford1LaserJock: Is there an edubuntu marketing team?19:02
LaserJockbencrisford1: no19:02
* bencrisford1 thinks there should be19:03
LaserJockright now I would say there is no edubuntu anything19:03
bencrisford1LaserJock: I can cover marketing19:03
bencrisford1im reasonable experienced19:03
nubaewell, look, I don't mind jumping in to maintain sugar for edubuntu, but it has to be as easy as with opensuse, or else the workload will just be too high19:03
isforinsectsMarketing teams are hard.  Ubuntu's proper has had a really hard time coordinating.19:03
bencrisford1i know19:03
bencrisford1im part of it :P19:03
isforinsectsas am I19:03
nubaeedubuntu is going throiugh a period of re- self discovery19:03
isforinsectsa mostly quiet one19:03
nubaewe are trying to tie down what makes us edubuntu19:04
nubaebut its very hard19:04
bencrisford1but im happy to help with marketing, thats what im saying :)19:04
LaserJockbencrisford1: btw, I did see your email19:04
Lnswhy can't we simply start out with edubuntu being 'The educational applications available for Ubuntu' ?19:04
bencrisford1i can code docbook too if we want more documentation19:04
nubaeisforinsects: btw, I would love an xo... I've been waiting one from projectdb for a good 6 months now19:04
nubaeeven though they've been approved19:04
nubaemaybe u can nudge someone there to send them ;-)19:05
LnsIMHO we need to make sure all of these apps are working 100% within Ubuntu before we think about being our own dist19:05
nubaeAlso I'll be at linuxtag in Berlin next month19:05
nubaeso I'll be meeting with lots of sugar/opensuse/edubuntu people there too19:05
nubaeLns: to my knowledge the only thing that doesnt work is proper user management19:05
nubaewhich is what sbalneav is going to tackle19:06
Lnsnubae: what's wrong with the already included ubuntu user mgmt tools?19:06
nubaeI sent Laserjock a big set of apps that all work nicely19:06
Lnswhy can't we fix those?19:06
nubaethats what he's doing19:06
isforinsectsOne of the big big big running issues with educational software is integration of existing content, and Open Educational Resources.19:06
nubaehe's taking pessulus, sabayon, the user management, and integrating with ldap etc19:06
Lnsheh..all of those are pretty broken =p19:07
LaserJockthere's a lot that doesn't work19:07
isforinsectsWhat about a content repo? Being able to install/download a local wikipedia (OLPC has a good slice) and/or Librivox audiobooks?19:07
isforinsectsDoes edubutunu want to even think about things like that?19:07
LaserJockwe have in the past19:08
nubaeisforinsects: right.... hopefully for LinuxTag we will have changed that a bit, we now (talking on behalf of opensuse again) are putting together a nicely working moodle instance with all there is out there... basically training material for open source stuff19:08
bencrisford1LaserJock: how do you think I can contribute to edubuntu based on my email?19:08
LaserJockbencrisford1: certainly documentation and marketing sounds good19:08
bencrisford1what about the website?  because ill help with that if you need me to?19:08
nubaeLns: rigth they are, which is why he's gonna fix them19:08
LaserJockbencrisford1: you familiar with Drupal?19:09
nubaebencrisford1: I believe I can give u rights to it19:09
nubaebut what do u want to do?19:09
LaserJockhang on, hang on19:09
LaserJockwe need to step back here people19:09
nubaeMost necessary thing is making sure everything is up to date19:09
bencrisford1LaserJock: not particurlaly but im sure i can pick it up...  after all the website will need lots of news updates during out 'revolution'19:09
nubaeok ok... maybe I'm running to fast19:09
* nubae steps back19:09
* bencrisford1 leaps back "is it my fault?" :P19:09
LaserJockwe need to get our goals/objectives/strategy set19:09
LaserJockget people organized around them19:10
LaserJockthen get to work19:10
bencrisford1lol i agree19:10
nubaenah, your enthusiasm is what is keeping the project alive19:10
bencrisford1but i just wanna find my place in the team19:10
LaserJockbencrisford1: right, we just need to build a team first ;-)19:10
nubaeok... one thing is, both me and Lns asked to be edubuntu members months ago19:10
nubaebased on the work both of us have done, I think it makes sense to honour that request19:10
nubaeLast thing I heard was it was going to be discussed at an irc meeting, and that was a good 5 months ago19:11
LaserJockbut we have no Edubuntu Council who can approve the requests19:11
bencrisford1lets take a vote :D19:11
bencrisford1i vote 'yes!'19:11
nubaeLns: I'm sure can market and promote to get more peons in19:11
nubaeas can I19:11
* Lns raises hand19:12
nubaebut unless we feel this is a community, I don't see no magic happening19:12
nubaeisforinsects: what is your role at olpc?19:12
* bencrisford1 is going for a wander19:12
Lnssbalneav: Just my $0.02 but if you're thinking about tackling user management, this bug might be a good place to start :) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-tools/+bug/25916319:12
ubottuUbuntu bug 259163 in gnome-system-tools "users-admin does not sort when Name/Login/Homedir field clicked" [Wishlist,Confirmed]19:12
* bencrisford1 'll be back soon19:13
isforinsectsnubae: eer, everything to everyone?  Job roles are ill-defined around here.19:13
sbalneavLns: Thx19:14
isforinsectsI do advocacy, media relations, volunteer coordination, documentation and occasional coding, patching, packaging etc.19:14
sbalneavLaserJock: heya19:14
nubaeLaserJock: you shold take a look at the user management interface of other distros, they are really much much better than what we have19:16
LaserJockok, so everybody who is willing to package, work on bugs, and maintian software raise your hand19:17
* isforinsects raises hand19:17
* alkisg raises hand but only if edubuntu is going to be a live dvd19:17
* sbalneav raises hand19:18
sbalneavI can't package, but I can do the other two.19:19
LaserJockalkisg: how about a live USB stick?19:19
alkisgLaserJock: no problem, so long as edubuntu focuses on ease of installation, and not just being a set of apps.19:20
LaserJocknubae: we don't exactly need new user management interfaces, we just need our existing ones to work :-)19:20
nubaewell, for schools its really important19:20
alkisgE.g. I need a few hours to set up a lab, and I consider myself experienced, I'd like edubuntu to help me with that.19:20
nubaethe sabayon-pesulus-ldap thing sbalneav is working on will be great19:21
nubaesomething special19:21
* Lns agrees w/nubae on that19:21
nubaeI too am only interested if edubuntu becomes its own distro again and not just a set of addon packages19:21
* Lns doesn't think demands have their place just yet in forming the community19:22
nubaewell sure they do... I have little free time19:22
nubaeand that free time I want to put in the right place19:22
nubaeI'm sure alkisg feels the same way19:23
alkisgLns, if edubuntu is going to be a set of apps, it's totally useless to me...19:23
Lnsnubae: you need to think of the community goals, not just your own perception of what things should be19:23
LaserJockalkisg: why is it useless?19:23
alkisgLaserJock: a metapackage? how helpful can that be?19:24
nubaewell let me spell it out better then, for our community to survive, revive and revitalie, we need a distro19:24
nubae+1 alkisg19:24
Lnsheh, nubae the dictator =p19:24
nubaeits come down to that now LaserJock, we're (you) maintiaing a meta package19:25
alkisgI need edubuntu to help me with the serious installation stuff, not just for selecting some apps...19:25
nubaeLns: its an opinion19:25
Lnsalkisg: what can edubuntu help you with that ubuntu doesn't do for installation?19:25
alkisgLns, it can provide me with a menu item to create gpxe boot disks19:25
alkisgJust a silly example, but a simple teacher may need an afternoon for that.19:25
Lnsalkisg: why can't that be a package for ubuntu?19:26
alkisgIt can help me with ldap19:26
alkisgOr with ltsp19:26
nubaethis perception of ubuntu being all thats required for a school is something I dont get... if thats the case then just let edubuntu die and lets move on to whatever else19:26
nubaeedubuntu should be a serious educational distribution with goals that are likewise about empowering teachers and students19:27
alkisgLns, an experienced administrator doesn't need edubuntu. A teacher needs edubuntu, because he doesn't know all the steps he'll need to make his lab working.19:27
alkisgE.g. a teacher may want to use scratch and not even know that it exists19:27
nubaeyeah, thats where lessons and lesson plans in moodle or a wiki or something woudl come in handy19:28
nubaeI know u are working on this19:28
nubaeI mean gathering content setting it up19:28
nubaeit would of course be much better if we had a central repo for such material19:28
LnsI'm not saying ubuntu is everything anyone needs for an edu environment, but it doesn't make sense to me to maintain an entire distro just to support a few install options and packaged apps. A wiki, HOWTO video, anything else would be sufficient. Personally I think k/x/edu/buntu just confuses people19:31
LnsPeople KNOW what Ubuntu is much more than edubuntu, or xubuntu, or kubuntu. We need to ride that wave and add edu spice to it19:32
sbalneavLook, this is so simple.19:32
alkisgThat would be sufficient for an IT administrator, not a teacher. My ubuntu/ltsp guide is now 100 pages, not easy for a teacher19:32
sbalneavAt it's base level, edubuntu is just a meta package.19:32
Lnsalkisg: maybe you should revise it ;)19:32
sbalneavwe distrubute (curreently) the meta package on a standalone disk, with it's dependencies19:33
alkisgLns, do you really think that a teacher may install LTSP over ubuntu without a really long guide?19:33
alkisgI think you overestimate us... :)19:33
sbalneavthe people who want a bootable cd/dvd just need to take the metapackage, combine it with an ubuntu bootable imagem and distrubute that.19:33
nubaesbalneav: yeah exactly, whats the point of that even, me and laserjock often get into talks where we wonder why anyone bothers downloading the cd19:34
sbalneavwhy not let the people who WANT the bootable dvd focus on DOING it, and the people who want to work on the SOFTWARE and the metapackage work on THAT?19:34
nubaesee... I don't buy this... well the ubuntu name is better than edubuntu19:35
Lns+1 sbalneav , /me stands corrected19:35
nubaeI'll tell u why not because the perception of a community is so strong that if we say we as the community distribute edubuntu our distro, based on ubuntu for education19:35
nubaeits a much stronger statement19:35
sbalneavalkisg: We've got probably 65% of that when you re-combine the LTSP upstream doco with the edubuntu handbook.19:35
nubaeyep, I thik we all know what needs to happen19:36
alkisgsbalneav: yes, but it's too big for a teacher. It should be more plug-n-play19:36
nubaecan we make roles and split the work that way?19:36
Lnsalkisg: what about the ltsp installer for ubuntu alternate?19:36
nubaeespecially so the new guys practially begging to do something can start?19:36
alkisgLns, that's what I use in my  manual19:36
Lnsalkisg: what's so hard with that method?19:37
Lnsthat's as plug n play as you can get19:37
alkisgLns, getting Greek in the ldm screen?19:37
Lnsthat's a different can of worms...19:37
nubaeLns: surely u understand that a live cd/stick is going to be easier19:37
alkisgRemoving users from the audio group?19:37
alkisgChanging dhcpd.conf if you only have 1 switch?19:37
alkisgetc etc19:37
nubaeeasy-ltsp script isnt so bad in the end, can be used for those scared of the command line19:38
Lnsalkisg: what about patching the installer then to accommodate that, rather than reinventing the wheel?19:38
alkisgQuestion: suppose that me, nubae and 10 others want to start making a bootable edubuntu dvd. Will it be called edubuntu, or is it something outside edubuntu?19:38
nubaewell as far as I know edubuntu is not trademarked19:38
Lnsalkisg: removing users from audio group is basic group mgmt19:38
alkisgLns, no, it's a setting in gnome-system-tools19:38
nubaeLns: a teacher doesnt do that19:38
nubaeI just ave this feeling everyone wants to go in different directions19:39
Lnsif a teacher is installing an LTSP environment, i'd hope they would be up for some basic user mgmt...19:39
LnsI'm seriously up for whatever. I'm just playing devil's advocate to make our mission a bit more clear :)19:40
nubaeso what does it boil down to? We had a constructive afternoon talking about what we were going to do and how we were going to do it19:40
sbalneavI think if you want to make this simple, that is, simple for US to develop, and for end users to maintain, you have to take skolelinux's viewpoint...19:40
nubaewhats the next step19:40
sbalneavyou do things OUR way.19:40
nubaewell, hang on a sec... skolelinux is a much bigger community19:41
sbalneavif you're going to set up an edubuntu lab, the thin clients MUST be on a singel switch of their own19:41
* LaserJock was eating lunch, finishing backscroll19:41
nubaeand in some wayss they can't upgrade easily due to that19:41
nubaewe are small lean, and can be a bit more progressive19:41
sbalneavyou MUST use our ldap, with no AD integration, etc etc etc.19:41
alkisgsbalneav: why "MUST" ?19:41
nubaethere aren't that many edubuntu installs, I'm sure19:41
alkisgE.g. I know teachers that use their laptops as servers, because they're on that school only for 2 days per week19:41
LnsEase of install vs. flexibility...ah, the age old balance19:42
sbalneavalkisg: because otherwise, we devolve into having to solve every single possible edge case that edubuntu might go into19:42
alkisgThey can't change the cabling19:42
sbalneavwhy can't they?19:42
alkisgBecause they're guest teachers19:42
sbalneavskolelinux requires that they use 10.0.0.x19:42
sbalneavwith no other dhcp servers on that subnet19:42
Lnsalkisg: guest teachers setting up a lab?19:42
sbalneavif you want to do it differently, then your on your own.  you can use skolelinux as a base, but our SUPPORTED situation is X19:43
alkisgLns, sure, with my manual they can just plug their laptops as ltsp-servers and start their lesson :)19:43
nubaesbalneav: I'm with u on that... thats what opensuse does right now19:43
LaserJockif I may, I think it'd be helpful if we stay away from LTSP implementation stuff19:43
nubaebasically they have a methodology that is different from other distros, but it all works19:44
alkisgsbalneav: Well, and dnsmasq just supported proxydhcp, which can be used in any setting, with an existing dhcp server, with dynamic ip etc. Why should we limit it to 10.0.0.x ?19:44
LaserJockpartly because it's just too complicated for what we're trying to accomplish here19:44
nubaeLaserJock: see, I disagree there... LTSP is the core for me19:44
nubaeI woudl never ever consider setting up a school without it19:44
LaserJockLTSP != education19:44
LaserJockschool != education19:44
nubaeI might consider giving children sticks also, to take home19:44
nubaebut in the classroom, thin terminal it must be... its just not mangable otherwise19:45
LaserJockthere are a lot of netbooks and 1to1 type stuff going on19:45
LaserJockLTSP is very powerful and a common use case19:45
nubaeyep... and we'll find solutions for that19:45
LaserJockbut i think it's a *big* mistake to center everything around the LTSP use case19:45
nubaewell, certainly not everything19:45
nubaebut it fits hand in hand19:45
nubaeI mean, llike alkisg already said, you wouldnt install edubuntu addons without an LTSP server already there19:46
LaserJockthe discussion so far around "why do we need installation media" was "to make LTSP easier"19:46
LaserJocklots of people use edubuntu addon without LTSP19:46
nubaewell opensuse has it in their livedvd and it works out of the box, bascially it doesnt get easier19:47
Lnsyeah, I see tons of ppl in the list installing edubuntu at home on a single pc19:47
alkisgLaserJock: I agree. edubuntu should contain both LTSP and non-LTSP versions, both LDAP and non-LDAP installations, both fat clients and non-fat clients... that's why it needs to be a distro, to take care of all this installation stuff19:47
LaserJockagain, I think we need to back out and look at what our real goals and objectives are19:47
sbalneavand now we're back to the age old problem19:47
nubaealkisg: well put19:47
LaserJockalkisg: but we *can't* take care of that19:47
alkisgWhy not?19:47
LaserJockwho's gonna do it!!!19:47
alkisgPeople are already doing it19:48
alkisgThey're just not calling it edubuntu anymore19:48
LaserJockwe barely got away with 1 LTSP setup19:48
nubaeLaserJock: if we're gonna be stuck in limbo, and we're not going to make decisions, what's the point here?19:48
nubaewhat are we discussing?19:48
alkisgI've seen maybe 5 different greek ubuntu/edu remixes this year, because edubuntu is now an add-on cd which nobody here uses19:48
LaserJockwhat are our goals19:48
LaserJockwhat are our target audiences19:48
LaserJockwhat technologies can we use to deliver19:48
LaserJockhow can we build a community to implement it all19:49
LaserJock"be a distro" is an implementation detail, not a goal19:49
LaserJockok, that's a start19:49
alkisgLaserJock: if we start with "edubuntu is a distro", people can put their brick in the edubuntu-house. Not everything has to happen with the "first release"19:49
LaserJockalkisg: but what will it be a distro of?19:50
alkisgUbuntu focused on education19:50
alkisgE.g. nubae may put an option to install sugar or not.19:50
LaserJockok, but again19:50
Lnssbalneav got it right: why not let the people who WANT the bootable dvd focus on DOING it, and the people who want to work on the SOFTWARE and the metapackage work on THAT?19:50
LaserJockwe can't exactly do that right now19:50
alkisgLns, sure, some of us are going to do that in any case, but it would be nice to cooperate19:51
LnsA community has many different people who all specialize in accomplishing different goals19:51
LaserJockmaintaining a distro is very very difficult19:51
LaserJockand frankly nobody in this community is currently up to the skill level needed19:51
alkisgE.g. this summer I'm either going to make a greek ubuntu/ltsp/edu remix, or help in edubuntu-live-dvd19:51
alkisg...if it comes to be19:51
LaserJockI don't think anybody will deny that we'd like to have a live media19:52
LaserJockor that a full distro is desirable over an addon19:52
LnsHere's my personal specialty: I deploy Ubuntu and LTSP on top of it in schools. I hear what works, what doesn't, and report upstream in bug reports. I customize environments.19:52
LaserJockwe didn't create the addon because we thought it'd be better than a full distro19:52
LaserJockwe did it because we couldn't really make the distro thing work anymore19:52
isforinsectsI think that looking at end goals would help this conversation19:53
LaserJockbut again, the choice of using DVDs/CDs/USB images/metapackages are really an implementation detail19:53
isforinsectsWhy is Ubuntu important to this group?19:53
alkisgthat's also an implementation detail :)19:54
isforinsectsI like ubuntu because it has a wide install base, and has a lot of documentation available for a wide array of types of users19:54
Lnsisforinsects: Ubuntu is important to me because LTSP is nicely integrated and works easily. It has a nice, clean, streamlined interface.19:54
isforinsectsOk, so is Ubuntu a sub feature of the Education goal?19:54
LaserJockhmm, how do you mean?19:55
isforinsectswe/you also need to define Education19:55
isforinsectsthat one is a lot harder19:55
isforinsectsWe seem to mean different things19:55
LaserJockok, did everybody read my strategy doc: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument19:56
LaserJockat least parts 1-319:56
sbalneavnubae: wb19:56
* isforinsects reads19:56
LaserJockis there anything wrong with it?19:56
nubaeyeah stupid internet connection :-)19:56
nubae(20:53:06) Nubae: eo19:57
nubae(20:53:36) Nubae: que tal estas alli en casita brasilena?19:57
nubae(20:54:02) Nubae: me gustaria comprar un vuelo para ira visitar te :-( te hecho mucho demenos19:57
nubae(20:48:31) Nubae: Well I for one want to work on stateless connections19:57
nubae(20:48:45) Nubae: ie... when a user is connected to a ltsp server, and disconnects his  netbook19:57
nubae(20:49:22) Nubae: he immediately works locally, when he logs back on the server and his laptop synch and they continue working19:57
nubae(20:49:42) Nubae: part of this has been solved already using xrdp19:57
nubae(20:50:23) Nubae: the last part is a cache of some sort locally and on the server so they can synch up19:57
nubae(20:50:58) Nubae: And I'd also like to see the latest version of sugar in edubuntu, and a better user management interface, groupings, lockdowns, etc19:57
bencrisford1LaserJock: want me to sort marketing?  because if we are gonna have our 'revolution' we need a following - and therefore publicity19:57
LaserJockbencrisford1: well, I think that will come19:58
LaserJockright now we're trying to figure out what we're gonna market :-)19:58
isforinsectshola dogi19:58
LaserJockbencrisford1: but yes, some good marketing/publicity will be quite important and the  help will be very appreciated19:58
LaserJockthe problem that we've constantly seen, and sbalneav likes to point out, is that we've got no lack for ideas19:59
LaserJockwhat we lack is hand implementing19:59
LaserJockwe've gone down the revolution road a few times19:59
isforinsectsI see two goals in the opening of the strategy doc19:59
LnsI need to go..i'll backscroll when I get back :)20:00
isforinsectsEdu-Applications in Ubuntu, presentation/integration of applications in edubuntu20:00
bencrisford1LaserJock: Shall I make a lp edubuntu-marketing team?  I know its jumping the gun a bit, but it'll let people know we are reforming20:01
* dogi likes the idea of sugar in edubuntu, too :) ... := subuntu = sugar + edubuntu20:01
LaserJockbencrisford1: it's jumping the gun too much. we've had lots of problems with having too many LP teams already20:01
* sbalneav pounds head on desk20:02
LaserJockbencrisford1: let's get things organized first20:02
bencrisford1ok sure20:02
isforinsectsdogi, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument#Focus%203:%20Sugar20:02
LaserJockso even though the strategy doc is not finished20:02
LaserJockI think it pretty much has the goals and objectives that the Edubuntu community is after20:02
isforinsectsWhat are some things that Edubuntu is *not*?20:04
LaserJockwow, good question20:04
LaserJockit's not a completely separate project from Ubuntu20:05
isforinsectsOk, that works20:05
LaserJockit's not really about making new educational software20:06
isforinsectsOh hi reubencaron_20:06
isforinsectsthat's a big one20:06
LaserJockI don't think it's supposed to be one-size-fits-all20:06
reubencaron_isforinsects: hi, just lurking20:06
LaserJocki.e. it should be flexible enough for a range of uses20:06
isforinsectsExample: I am interested in convincing people that educational content in ubuntu repo's is a good idea.20:07
LaserJockand it's not closed source/non-free/Microsoft/Apple :-)20:07
isforinsectsRight, LaserJock it needs to be a wide open playing field for contributors.  But under the auspicies of edubuntu, you need to limit the focus *somehow*.20:08
LaserJockand *that's* what I wanted to discuss20:08
LaserJockbecause I feel like Edubuntu is too big for the size of community we're going to start out with20:08
isforinsectsLet me frame where I'm coming from as well.  I'm from OLPC (as I mentioned), I think that OLPC/SugarLabs has a valid interest, but Education, technology and Open Content are what I am about in general.20:08
LaserJockthat's why I sort of jettison a lot of emphasis on LTSP20:08
LaserJockLTSP works, and is a big part of the landscape, but I don't know that Edubuntu has the resources to focus too much on LTSP specifically20:09
isforinsectsI'm not reall a part of this community *yet*, so I don't want to try to direct what Edubuntu is, but I would like to help this conversation.20:09
isforinsectsok, so what else is edubuntu *not*?20:10
isforinsectsor what else *is* edubuntu in a very very broad sense20:10
isforinsectsSo edubuntu can't spend a lot of resources on the thin client lab model.  Ok.20:11
isforinsectsIs edubuntu about documentation outside of the repo's?20:11
isforinsectsI'm not saying that edubuntu is *not* LTSP.20:11
LaserJockI think Edubuntu can spend time making sure that LTSP works correctly20:12
isforinsectsis edubuntu testing and feedback from users/teachers/testers?20:12
LaserJockyes to those20:12
LaserJockdocs and testing/feedback are huge20:12
LaserJockbecause even if we can't fix the problems we can at least help direct to somebody who can20:13
LaserJocki.e. KDE devs have come to us asking for feedback from teachers on how KDE could be made better for them20:13
sbalneavWell, and that's where I have traditionally come in.20:13
LaserJockwhat I *want* to say is that Edubuntu is everything Education in the Ubuntu project20:14
LaserJockbut I think realistically that's not feasible for the time-being20:15
isforinsectsThat's good marketing, that's not a good plan.20:15
isforinsectsEducation would cover teaching people about Ubuntu, which is kinda covered in part by Canonical's marketing and partially by the doc teams20:15
LaserJockah yes, there is that confusion20:16
isforinsectssbalneav: how does interaction with testing groups and teachers work with edubuntu?20:16
LaserJockI talked a little bit with Belinda from Canonical about that20:16
LaserJockthere's a difference between education *about* Ubuntu and education *using* Ubuntu20:16
isforinsectsDoes anyone know Joe Feinstein at Canonical? he may be joe6 or something like that?20:17
LaserJocknot me20:17
LaserJocka significant issue, from my perspective, is that we've traditionally out-marketed our technical ability20:18
LaserJockI've seen lots of initiatives and community-building things happen20:19
isforinsectsIt's always helpful to file lots of bugs, if even to use to recruit new talent.20:19
LaserJockbut very little actually ends up making a technical difference20:19
LaserJockit does20:19
isforinsectsRight, in a way.20:19
LaserJockbut we also need people to work on the bugs20:20
LaserJockthroughout Edubuntu's history the number of actual developers has never been more than 220:20
isforinsectsnot including packagers?20:20
isforinsectswhat about projects like GASP?20:21
LaserJockthat's the number of people who could upload20:21
isforinsectsIs that an administration bottleneck?20:21
LaserJocki.e. were in MOTU or Ubuntu Core Dev20:21
isforinsectsOh, gotcha20:21
LaserJockno, mostly interest and getting current devs some time to develop more devs20:21
LaserJockfor total "people who contribute to technical stuff" we've probably never had more than 520:22
LaserJockwe've had a number of doc people and marketing/advocacy/support types but that's kinda dwindled20:22
LaserJockbut all the marketing and documentation in the world won't help you if you're software is crap20:23
LaserJockogra was really the only one that ever got things in real good shape20:23
LaserJockand some of that was because he was full time20:24
sbalneavWhich is the reason why I've always been of the opinion that we ought to fix what we already have, as opposed to simply widening the scope.20:24
LaserJockI personally wouldn't mind if we picked a specific target and went with that for a release20:24
LaserJockthen widened slowly from there20:24
sbalneavright, and alot of the work that was done early on was with the early crowd (ogra, myself, jammcq, etc) working on LTSP520:24
LaserJockyou guys picked something (LTSP5) and did it very well20:25
LaserJockand Edubuntu took off20:25
LaserJockfor the last year or so Edubuntu has done everything ... poorly20:26
pygihi LaserJock, sbalneav20:26
pyginice to see you folks :)20:26
sbalneavIs this the point where I take a sip from the wrong chalice and I turn into a skeleton and get blown away?20:26
sbalneavhello pygi20:27
LaserJockhi Mario20:27
LaserJockI don't think LTSP is a good choice for the "thing we do well"20:27
sbalneavNow, here's what I'd suggest.20:28
pygiiscsi burning then? :p20:28
LaserJockpartly because upstream is now pretty solid, and I don't think we need to revolutionize things again20:28
sbalneav1) nubae and alkisg really REALLY want a live CD/DVD20:28
sbalneavok, it's theirs.20:28
sbalneav2) I really REALLY want to get sabayon fixed, and make g-s-t work with ldap20:29
sbalneavOK, I and anyone else can work on that20:29
sbalneav3) LaserJock wants Edu apps, and the metapackage solid20:29
sbalneavWhy don't we, say, take 2 months, keep in contact, and see where we get with each of our little projects in that time?20:30
sbalneavwe meet weekly, and status report things to death, and we can cross discuss anything that needs discussing20:31
sbalneavLaserJock: Maybe excempting you, since you've got a dissertation to finish20:32
LaserJockhow about this20:33
LaserJockwe should use the RoadMap or TODO wiki page20:33
LaserJockeverybody puts on it what they're willing to work on for Karmic20:33
LaserJockthen we do as sbalneav said with reporting20:34
LaserJockwe could use blueprints but that might be a bit overkill20:34
LaserJockI would also like to have a wishlist with items that *should* get done but nobody has yet picked up20:35
sbalneavI'm fine with that.20:36
LaserJock... so for the meeting Friday people should have a list ready of what they're willing to work on20:36
LaserJockdocs, marketing, package, bug fixing, etc.20:36
LaserJock*anything* people want to contribute is welcome20:37
pygisbalneav: can't we have a BOF or something at UDS?20:37
alkisgLaserJock: so it's ok if me, nubae and some others start with an edubuntu live dvd?20:37
alkisgWon't there be redistribution problems? name, hosting etc?20:37
LaserJockwell, yeah20:37
LaserJockyou guys will need to figure out how to do that20:37
LaserJockor get help or whatever20:37
LaserJockbut basically the idea would be to say "if you can get it done, go for it"20:38
alkisgWell, before investing a few months we should first make sure that someone will host the edubuntu dvd20:39
alkisgI don't know who to contact for this.20:39
LaserJockwell, cjwatson and slangasek would be good people to talk with20:40
LaserJockfrankly I don't think the chances are very good20:40
LaserJockEdubuntu got dropped for Jaunty from the normal mirrors20:41
LaserJockin favor of Ubuntu Netbook Remix20:41
LaserJockso it's now just on cdimage.ubuntu.com20:41
alkisgOK, but that's where we should start. If we don't get hosting, there's no point in even starting it.20:41
LaserJockif there wasn't room for the CD .iso I'm not sure there will be for a DVD20:41
LaserJockthere is the Ubuntu DVD20:41
nubaeLaserJock: we can use the suse studio service20:42
alkisgAnd I don't know if canonical will let us keep the "edubuntu" name if we host it in sourceforge or wherever.20:42
nubaebut not sure if they allow foreign builds20:42
nubaeI'll have to check20:42
LaserJockI really would suggest not hosting .isos from outside Ubuntu20:42
nubaebut yes it would be interesting to have at least edubuntu on a stick with a set of apps we all agree on20:42
LaserJockwe can talk with Canonical about hosting20:42
nubaeok... what about the set of apps I sent you20:42
LaserJockand talk to Xubuntu perhaps20:42
nubaewhat do u think about packaging those as -extras?20:43
LaserJockI think that's perhaps doable20:43
alkisgLaserJock: you say "(1) ubuntu won't host it, (2) don't host it elsewhere, and (3) do it if you can". Those are incompatible...20:43
LaserJockI'm not saying Ubuntu won't host it20:43
LaserJockI'm just saying that it's not a trivial thing to just add a DVD20:43
nubaeI think he refered to foreign isos20:43
LaserJockI would strongly suggest looking to see if the Ubuntu DVD can be used for your purposes20:44
alkisgNo, it doesn't even have language support20:44
nubaeso does that mean that a decisions been made to continue with the status quo?20:44
LaserJocksince Edubuntu is at least 90% Ubuntu it would make less sense to duplicate all that20:44
LaserJocknubae: at this point I don't think there is any status quo20:44
nubaeyou're still thinking from a technical perspective20:45
nubaeand not marketing/comercial perspective20:45
nubaeit doesnt matter that its 90% the same20:45
LaserJockoh it does20:45
nubaethe changes required are interesting themes20:45
nubaecolour adaptations20:45
nubaesomething to make it its own20:45
LaserJockbut convincing Ubuntu mirrors to duplicat 3+GB for each arch/release/ etc. is a *big* problem20:46
nubaereally brand it as an edu thing20:46
LaserJockwhat I'm trying to say is I think getting your own Edubuntu branded DVD is highly unlikely20:46
LaserJockbut modifying the Ubuntu DVD to suit your goals may be possible20:46
nubaewhat is stopping us?20:46
alkisgLaserJock: if we get a lot of bandwidth, that means we're successful.20:46
LaserJocklook, I'll be blunt20:47
LaserJockif you host the .iso elsewhere it won't be Edubuntu20:47
LaserJockEdubuntu is part of Ubuntu and uses Ubuntu's infrastructure20:47
LaserJockwe *can* talk with other derivatives to see what they're doing20:47
LaserJockand how they're mitigating issues20:48
LaserJockbut "well, let's just host it on sourceforge" is a bad idea20:48
LaserJocka successful USB image would probably work out20:48
LaserJockbut a DVD is a *major* commitment for hosts/mirrors20:49
LaserJockKubuntu doesn't even have its own DVD20:49
nubaeLaserJock: for me its about making a decision whether to continue on this plaform, or move over to something else where I'm given the liberty to make a difference20:49
alkisgWhy is a DVD different than a USB with concern to hosting?20:49
LaserJockalkisg: a DVD is generally 4.2 GB a USB image is generall 1-2GB20:49
LaserJocknubae: you *can* make a difference20:50
nubaein doesnt have to be20:50
LaserJockI sent out tons of emails about how people can contribute and make things better20:50
nubaethe opensuse-edu dvd is 2.2 gigs20:50
alkisgI don't think we're going to decide what to put in based on the available size20:50
nubaenot 220:50
LaserJock*nobody* stepped up20:50
nubaesorry not 420:50
nubaestepped up to what? we're sitting here, discussing this now and I've asked many times about what to do20:50
nubaeI'm not even considered an edubuntu member20:51
LaserJockand I've said over and over, we *have* to get the apps well maintained20:51
nubaeso step up to what?20:51
LaserJockwe *have* to get metapackages in shape20:51
alkisgLaserJock: not everyone is interested in maintaining apps20:51
LaserJockwe *have* to get documentation and the website updated20:51
LaserJockwe *have* to get development release testing and bug fixing going20:51
LaserJockwhat media we end up using to deliver the product is secondary to *having* a product20:52
nubaewell, for me it just sounds like we're going to be staying in the status quo... setting up a metapackage with the apps I proposed wouldn't take long I guess20:52
nubaeright, which is why I've made very specific ideas on what to do20:52
LaserJockI don't think we're staying in the status quo20:52
LaserJockI'm saying I think we need to start with where we're at right now20:52
nubaepackage ltsp together with edubuntu20:52
nubaeand sugar20:53
nubaemake fat client images available for various scenarios20:53
LaserJockright now it's not feasible to just jump into an Edubuntu branded Live DVD20:53
LaserJockperhaps we can get there20:53
* isforinsects scrolls back20:53
LaserJockbut I'm trying to get at what can be done for Karmic20:53
nubaewelll, then what are we gonna do, for karmic again, just modify the metapackage a bit?20:53
LaserJockubuntu-edu-* should need only minor tweaks20:54
LaserJockwe need MIRs for any more apps we want in them20:54
LaserJockubuntu-edu-*-extras needs to be created and populated20:54
LaserJockthe apps need to get maintained20:54
LaserJockgcompris is in bad shape20:54
LaserJockmoodle is in bad shape20:55
LaserJocksabayon is toast20:55
nubaeI actually met the gcompris guy over the weekend20:55
alkisgLaserJock: we don't have resources to make a remix, but we do have the resources to fix bugs?20:55
nubaehe's been very heavily optimising his package for Sugar20:55
nubaebut he also didn't see much future for edubuntu in its current state20:56
LaserJockalkisg: what's the point of making a remix if the apps that it's made up of are crap?20:56
alkisgI don't think edubuntu is about fixing bugs.20:56
LaserJocknubae: I know20:56
alkisgThat's upstream20:56
nubaewho says they are crap?20:56
LaserJockSugar is messed up20:56
LaserJockgcompris, moodle, sabayon, etc. again20:56
nubaeyeah and sugar wont get into edubuntu20:56
LaserJockwhy not?20:57
nubaebecause of politics20:57
LaserJockthat's not true at all20:57
LaserJockwe *can* do it20:57
nubaethe debian maintainer wants to stay at 0.8220:57
LaserJockthat's fine20:57
nubaeyes it is true, unless we fork, its staying at a shitty release20:57
LaserJockwe don't have to hold to Debian20:57
LaserJockI've said it a million times20:57
nubaewell I have no interest in 0.8220:57
LaserJock*if* people step up there is no reason why we can't do it20:57
LaserJock0.84 was *there* but nobody stepped up to finish it20:57
LaserJockthere was just a couple python bugs20:58
isforinsectsalso the Sugar devs are really stepping up on packageability, trying to make it not so integrated with the very very custom fedora for OLPC20:58
sbalneavJust out of curiousity, who would STOP sugar from getting into edubuntu if there would be working packages?20:59
LaserJockthere are currently 271 open bugs20:59
nubaeactually, this is something I know quite a lot about, in sugar we have created a mechanism whereby from git to packaging is automated via the opensuse build service20:59
LaserJockwe need to knock that down to < 50 bugs, IMO20:59
nubaewe decided to go this way (upstream) so that maintenance and packaging would be totally automatic... it will be up to the maintainers of various distros if they want reinvent the wheel21:00
bencrisford1271 open bugs in..?  i only just got back?21:00
LaserJockbencrisford1: in Edubuntu packages21:00
nubaeoBS can spit out to any distro and any architecture, so it just makes sense for us21:00
LaserJockbut that doesn't help Edubuntu21:01
LaserJockwell, it does21:01
nubaealso, oBS is gpl, so if we wanted we could even create our own cloud for using it21:01
bencrisford1LaserJock: If we all start working on them we can make a dent?21:01
LaserJockbut we need to get those packages into Edubuntu21:01
nubaeit should help edubuntu since we can put in those packages from that external repo21:01
LaserJockbencrisford1: sure21:01
LaserJockcreating and maintaining a live DVD for Edubuntu is going to be way harder than getting packages fixed up21:03
LaserJockyou guys are welcome to work on that21:03
bencrisford1whats the name of the lp package for edubuntu?21:03
LaserJockthere isn't any one package21:03
LaserJockbencrisford1: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs will give you the list21:04
bencrisford1ah ok21:04
LaserJockI just think it would be helpful is some people stepped up to work on the packages21:04
LaserJocksince that is the core of what we're doing21:04
* highvoltage returns from IRL meeting21:04
bencrisford1LaserJock: I'll spend some time on bug fixing21:06
bencrisford1and whenever I get the chance21:06
LaserJockbencrisford1: feel free to join the ~edubuntu-bugs team21:06
nubaeIf I knew we were working towards our own release, I'd start packaging sugar for edubuntu21:06
nubaebut I dont want to do work that will later be disregarded21:07
bencrisford1LaserJock: is that for triaging or fixing?21:07
LaserJocknubae: why would it be disregarded?21:07
LaserJockbencrisford1: whatever you like :-)21:07
* bencrisford1 is a packaging noob21:08
bencrisford1do i just assign it to me?21:08
bencrisford1then do the packaging mumbo jumbo21:08
bencrisford1then upload it as a patch?21:08
LaserJockbencrisford1: well, you can talk with #ubuntu-bugs on triaging or #ubuntu-motu for packaging21:09
bencrisford1to the bug report21:09
bencrisford1LaserJock: ?21:09
LaserJockbut most of our stuff is really following up on bugs21:09
LaserJockif you're working on a bug report go ahead and assign it to yourself21:09
bencrisford1i am21:10
bencrisford1ill be back in an hour21:10
Ahmuckwant a free testing lab?21:13
Ahmuckwith usability testing cameras?21:13
LaserJockI think we might21:13
Ahmuckhow can you market something that isn't there?21:15
* Ahmuck is backreading21:16
alkisgSo nubae, do you want to send an mail to cjwatson about if we can host an edubuntu dvd? (you are more known than me, you'll be taken more seriously). He'll turn us down of course, but at least we'll say that we tried...21:17
LaserJockwe could discuss exactly what would like to be tried on the mailing list or something21:19
LaserJockfiguring out the justifications for it all21:20
alkisgLaserJock: I'm with nubae on this, i.e. start with something like opensuse dvd21:20
LaserJockand maybe then email Mark and Steve Langasek21:20
alkisgI've only seen it for half an hour, but it convinced me21:20
alkisgThat's a more exact description of what we want to do than hours of talking/emailing21:20
LaserJockok, but I think the justification is about why you can't do it with the Ubuntu DVD21:21
LaserJocksince it already has a live environment21:21
alkisgIt isn't a live dvd21:21
LaserJockand all the Edubuntu apps21:21
alkisgI doesn't have ltsp preinstalled21:22
LaserJockno, but we wouldn't really want LTSP live21:22
alkisgWhy not? That's part of our plan...21:22
LaserJockbut the DVD has all the stuff on it already21:22
LaserJockso it's more about presentation21:22
LaserJockwell, I suppose you could try. I've always been told that LTSP on a live environment is not a good idea21:23
alkisgWell, I've seen it live, and it's fine.21:23
sbalneavWho's got a live ltsp cd?21:23
alkisgkiwi-ltsp, but still...21:24
sbalneavSo they package a chroot as a binary blob on the cd?21:24
alkisgnubae, ^^^21:24
alkisgI've only seen it for half an hour, didn't see if it used nfs or nbd21:24
sbalneavCriminy, I'm looking through gnome-system-tools at the user portion, I can't even see where the heck it adds the user.21:26
sbalneavah, system-tools-backends21:28
LaserJockyeah, good luck with that21:28
sbalneavPerl happy stuff21:32
LaserJockyeah, I don't know Perl at all21:33
Ahmuckedubuntu should focus less on apps and more on how the system works and apps install, etc.21:33
LaserJockand I don't plan on learning any time soon21:33
LaserJockAhmuck: really?21:33
LaserJockI mean, I know there's a lot with integration and how to get the stuff installed21:34
highvoltageAhmuck: some would say that focussing on upstream educational applications is the most important thing edubuntu should focus on21:34
LaserJockbut it's really not *that* hard to install stuff21:34
alkisgg-s-t has a perl backend for a C front-end? Yikes...21:34
LaserJockbut it's pretty important that once you install it that it works I'd thing21:34
alkisgSo do you think if all bugs are fixed, people will use the edubuntu add-on cd?21:36
alkisgI still think they'll use synaptic and install the apps they want...21:36
LaserJockbut that's fine21:36
sbalneavI know some perl.21:37
sbalneavOn a more practical front.21:37
LaserJockI honestly don't care all that much *how* people get the Edubuntu apps21:37
LaserJockI just want to make sure that they are easy to get and that they *do* work right when they are installed21:37
sbalneavLaserJock: How's your time, with the disertation these days?  Would you be willing to hold a packaging tutorial again? For those of us in here?21:38
LaserJockI think perhaps a better idea would be to get hooked up with the MOTU stuff21:38
LaserJockI think they've been doing some Packaging 101 stuff21:39
LaserJockit'd be better for my time constraints and you'd learn the latest in packaging as opposed to my ancient techniques ;-)21:39
alkisgpbuilder works wonders in packaging21:40
sbalneavSo, hang out in #ubuntu-motu?21:40
sbalneavI have never got packaging.  Partially because I'm stupid, and partially because... ok, I'll be honest.  It's totally because I'm stupid.21:40
LaserJockask #ubuntu-motu when the next packaging tutorial session will be21:41
alkisgsbalneav: I had a friend doing my first packaging from me, but after that it all became clear... you should do the same :)21:41
sbalneavI've tried before, tried and failed.21:41
sbalneavI recognize the problem is totally in my seized up neural synapses21:42
* cbx33 peeks in21:42
sbalneavhey hey cbx3321:42
cbx33hey sbalneav21:42
LaserJockholy cow21:42
alkisgsbalneav: do you have something specific to package, or you're just looking for general knowledge?21:42
bencrisford1hi cbx3321:42
LaserJockwe had pygi in here earlier, it's like old school in here21:42
sbalneavOK, well, for instance.21:42
pygiLaserJock: what I did this time? :d21:43
Ahmuckk, i'm a bit lost already this afternoon21:43
sbalneavSo, lets say I hack around a bit, and come up with a patch to system-tools-backends to allow for ldap integration.21:43
Ahmuckis there a reason were not requiring apps to maintian thier own?21:43
cbx33hey peeps21:43
Ahmuckis there a ubuntu ltsp group?21:43
LaserJockAhmuck: what do you mean?21:43
highvoltagesbalneav: if you are stupid then I certainly don't want to know what I am21:43
LaserJockAhmuck: no21:43
LaserJockAhmuck: just stgraber21:44
sbalneavHow do I get the diff turned into the package?21:44
Ahmuckheh, well, that's a major problem21:44
LaserJockAhmuck: and for the rest of Edubuntu I'm the only dev21:44
alkisgsbalneav: that's just one little command, I don't have it handy, but it's really *one* command21:44
Ahmuckdid edubuntu apply for GSOC?21:44
lfaraoneAhmuck: other than the fact that in many cases upstream is lazy, or has better stuff to do, or can't support all the bajilllion different distros.21:45
cbx33ubuntu as a whole is not doing GSoC21:45
Ahmuckwould there be any interest in YSOC?21:45
LaserJockUbuntu is not a part of GSoC21:45
highvoltageI was just going to say what cbx33 said21:45
lfaraoneLaserJock: why not?21:45
LaserJocknot sure21:45
sbalneavI could help with LaserJock a lot more than I do, but once I find a problem, I'm in no position to be able to turn it into anything useful for LaserJock21:45
Ahmuckubuntu think they were too good for GSOC?21:45
Ahmucki'd say edubuntu was a perfect example for GSOC21:45
LaserJockI would guess because previous years have been a disaster for Ubuntu21:45
highvoltageAhmuck: working with GSoC is lots of work21:45
Ahmuckwhy were they a disaster?21:45
highvoltageAhmuck: and it's a big responsibility21:45
Ahmucki know many projects where it works well21:45
highvoltageAhmuck: it's not something that you should take on lightly21:46
Ahmucktwo in fact where it works very well21:46
LaserJockGSoC just really doesn't seem to work with Ubuntu that well21:46
Ahmucki'd be asking why21:46
LaserJockI think it's sort of a style/community difference21:46
highvoltageAhmuck: and those are typically the projects that has the resources to do so21:46
LaserJockmostly you get a bunch of young people who want to work on Ubuntu21:46
Ahmucklets assume one GSOC student could have been paired with ubuntu-ltsp dev.  that would have created a 1.5 dev on the project21:47
lfaraoneAhmuck: we're too large, and it takes too much long term commitment.21:47
LaserJockbut they're not hooked into the community very well21:47
LaserJockand the mentors don't have a good idea of what's going on21:47
cbx33Ahmuck: I'd forget GSoC if I were you21:47
lfaraoneAhmuck: it makes better sense for upstream (IE LTSP) to do so.21:47
lfaraone* i.e.21:47
Ahmuckhow does it make sense for upstream to do so if the project has died?21:47
lfaraoneAhmuck: meh.21:47
Ahmuckthis is where i think there are problems21:47
LaserJocka GSoC student isn't going to revive Edubuntu21:48
Ahmuckand where i think that 1. goals need to be defined within the community21:48
lfaraoneAhmuck: we already have enough trouble managing the volunteers we have. GSoC is not cost-effective for us.21:48
Ahmuck2. if there is no upstream support or devs, fork edubuntu into a purely community focus21:48
Ahmuckbreak it out of ubuntu if ubuntu has no devs or support for it21:48
highvoltagethere's 0 reason for edubuntu to break away from ubuntu21:49
LaserJockthe hope is that Edubuntu community produces Ubuntu devs21:49
LaserJockto work on Edubuntu21:49
sbalneavForking a project doesn't magically create devs.  If we can't attract devs to what we already HAVE, then how will forking attract more? :)21:50
cbx33I think the biggest problem we have is a large userbase...but users != devs21:50
cbx33we have alot of people who want to USE it21:51
cbx33but not a lot of people who want to DEV for it21:51
cbx33DEVing for Educational stuff just isn't cool21:51
cbx33is the view21:51
bencrisford1hang on guys, i was attracted to this project :P21:51
Ahmucksbalneav: forking may break what appears to be a red tape senario21:51
cbx33++ bencrisford1 ;)21:51
cbx33but you are in a minority....mostly people want to work on ubuntu21:51
bencrisford1i think DEVing for edu stuff is the new black :P21:51
LaserJockwe don't have a red tape problem21:51
sbalneavAhmuck: right, but forking also means giving up all the potential support infrastructure we do have right now.21:52
LaserJockwe have a "nobody is working on anything" problem21:52
Ahmucktwo things happens with forks.  either the fork makes it and the original dies, or the original goes *yikes* and someone steps up to put more effort into the orginal21:52
highvoltagebencrisford1: heh21:52
LaserJockAhmuck: but we're already at "yikes"21:52
highvoltageAhmuck: well, in that case, feel free to fork off edubuntu21:52
LaserJockso no need to fork for that21:52
Ahmucki'm not into forking either, but i'm re-considering ubuntu-ltsp as a network platform21:52
highvoltageAhmuck: but edubuntu is going to stay as long as we can do anything about it21:53
Ahmucki'm in decision mode :)21:53
LaserJockAhmuck: well, what need to happen for you to stick with Edubuntu?21:53
LaserJockit's important to see what things need to change, and then to figure out what we can do to fix them21:53
Ahmuckarg, i just got reset21:53
Ahmuckso i assume everything i was typing never got seen21:54
LaserJockwe don't need to fork or drop everything, etc. to fix thing and make them better21:54
sbalneavSo, question is, if you're reconsidering ubuntu-ltsp as your platform, what would you move to?21:54
Ahmuckmany people see edubuntu as ubuntu-ltsp21:54
Ahmucksbalneav: i don't know at this point.21:54
sbalneavWho's currently doing *os*-ltsp better than ubuntu-ltsp?21:55
alkisgsbalneav: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete#Recipe:%20Updating%20An%20Ubuntu%20Package21:55
Ahmuckwell, i've heard mandriva, opensuse ?21:55
alkisgdebuild does it all...21:55
highvoltageAhmuck: I personally would like to see edubuntu make an ltsp installation really, really simple, but edubuntu's scope is *SO MUCH* larger than just that21:56
sbalneavAs far as I know, mandriva doesn't have LTSP5.  At least, no-one from Mandriva's ever come forward in #ltsp that I know of.21:57
highvoltagesbalneav: does fedora have a native meukow implementation, or do they use an ubuntu chroot?21:57
LaserJockopenSUSE is also LTSP 4.2 right?21:58
highvoltageLaserJock: I think they use kiwi which is an ltsp 5 fork21:58
sbalneavhighvoltage: Fedora was heavily involved with ltsp5.  However, rumour has it that Fedora/Redhat is coming up with their OWN thin client solution, and have pretty much disappeared from the ltsp5 picture.22:00
LaserJockI don't know, I guess I'm just kinda biased22:03
LaserJockI just don't care that much personally about LTSP22:03
LaserJockI know it's important for people so it'd defiantly part of the Edubuntu mix22:04
LaserJockbut I view it more as one of the vehicles with which we get educational "stuff" to users22:04
Ahmuckwhat is edbuntu's scope?22:05
Ahmucksbalneav: fedora's ltsp solution is propetary?22:06
sbalneavAhmuck: I don't know.22:06
sbalneavI don't think they have one yet22:06
Ahmuckso this afternoon has there been a list of goals decided ?22:07
Ahmuckwhen is the big ubuntu meeting?22:07
Ahmucktomorrow? or a week from tomorrow ?22:07
Ahmucker, sorry, this friday?22:07
highvoltageAhmuck: I think we need to refactor edubuntu's scope a bit, but "to bring the best of upstream educational programs and content to ubuntu" will probably always be a very big part of it22:07
highvoltageAhmuck: this friday, 22 may22:07
highvoltageAhmuck: I sent a reminder to edubuntu-devel, check your inbox22:08
Ahmuckif edubuntu is not focused on ltsp, then the question that needs to be asked does ubuntu itself plan to do anything with ltsp?22:08
Ahmucki'd also be asking why other distros have been dropping it.  to many problems?  ie "redhat"22:08
highvoltageAhmuck: ubuntu already has a super-easy out-of-box ltsp installation22:09
highvoltageAhmuck: it's an installer option on the alternate cd22:09
Ahmuckhighvoltage: i agree22:09
Ahmuckhowever there are ltsp problems22:09
highvoltageAhmuck: upstream problems?22:09
Ahmucki'm not using edubuntu (kick me if you wish) but a pure ltsp environment at the moment.  i add on the edu packages via aptitude22:09
sbalneavProblems WITH ltsp, or problems that arise OUT OF running an ltsp environment?22:10
Ahmuckhighvoltage: no, problems that arise out of ltsp environment22:10
AhmuckSDL is one, flash is another, system messages, volume control, etc.22:10
highvoltageAhmuck: those are mostly upstream issues, and is better solved through #ltsp and the ltsp community22:11
sbalneavWell, what doesn't work on them?  Flash, and volume control work fine for me22:13
LaserJockright now I think LTSP is positioned pretty well22:13
sbalneavNot sure what you mean by system messahes, but flash works fine for me too22:13
LaserJockit's an Ubuntu-wide tool that is often found in educational environments22:13
LaserJockas an Edubuntu development community builds I think LTSP will naturally get benefits from that22:14
sbalneavLTSP's just plumbing at this point22:14
sbalneavreally, it's absolutely no different from OpenOffice.org or Firefox22:15
LaserJockok, so I'm not sure we figured out any real "thing we're going to do really well"22:16
LaserJockI'd like to see something that's really going to set Edubuntu apart22:16
Ahmuck_i'm here22:17
highvoltageLaserJock: imho, and with my experience working with educators, ease of use and usability will go a very, very long way, and I would love it if that makes edubuntu stand out22:17
Ahmuck_just a minute22:17
bencrisford1LaserJock: I'm quite anxious to get started on some posters...22:18
bencrisford1:D :P22:18
Ahmuckwith scribus ?22:18
bencrisford1or just gimp22:19
* Ahmuck is bouncing around classrooms22:19
LaserJockhighvoltage: I think ease-of-use and usability are very in-line with what Ubuntu's all about22:19
LaserJockwhat would be our educational scope?22:20
LaserJocklike age ranges, types of deployment/installs, etc.?22:20
Ahmuck_didn't we cover age ranges about 3 months ago?22:22
Ahmuck_you have two type of deployments.  one standalone, and one ltsp22:23
Ahmuck_both the installs seem to do well22:23
highvoltageLaserJock: I understand what you're saying, I think edubuntu could take it a step further, I don't want the educational scope to get neglected though22:23
LaserJockpart of the discussion has been that we're spread too thin22:24
LaserJockwe're not focused22:25
Ahmuck_we need 1. system configuration managment, 2. user managment, 3. workstation managment, 4. application managment(!)22:25
LaserJockso perhaps "make all of education usable and easy" is a bit too broad22:25
Ahmuck_so focus on one area first22:25
Ahmuck_make it stable and then move on22:25
sbalneavI have to bugger off home for the day.22:25
LaserJockAhmuck_: what about educational apps?22:25
Ahmuck_what do you mean about the edu apps?22:26
LaserJockdon't we need them?22:26
sbalneavI've just got the packaging guide printed out, I'm going to look at bringing sabayon up to date.22:26
Ahmuck_there are tons of edu apps out there22:26
Ahmuck_actually i wanted to touch on sabayon22:26
Ahmuck_in reguards to the edu apps, those left up to the instructor, and the instructor chooses which ones to install and use22:26
alkisgsbalneav: do you have a launchpad ppa?22:27
highvoltageLaserJock: what do you suggest?22:27
Ahmuck_or asks the school admin to do so (which may be the science teacher)22:27
LaserJockAhmuck_: so we shouldn't ship any educational apps?22:27
LaserJockhighvoltage: it's an interesting question22:29
Ahmuck_my opinion of edu apps is that the instructors themselves tend to pick what best works for them.  this means for a oss edu linux app to make it, they would have to pass an instuctors litmis test22:29
Ahmuck_so to speak22:29
LaserJockI would look at what we do well22:29
LaserJockAhmuck_: fine, but what does that mean for us?22:29
Ahmuck_seriously, if the edu app doesn't fit what an instructor or school needs, why would you expect to convince them to use it22:29
Ahmuck_it means you may not know your audience22:29
LaserJockbut we should probably ship some educational apps though, right?22:30
LaserJockI really don't see the point of an educational distro that doesn't ship primarily educational apps22:30
LaserJockone thing to consider is who our target user is22:30
highvoltageLaserJock: imho edu apps are also upstream work that we treat more or less the same as firefox/OOo/ltsp, perhaps with some higher priority though. edubuntu should take what's out there and deliver it well. that's just my opinion though.22:31
Ahmuck_there are two things going on.  one is system management - ltsp, network printing, etc.  a type of network system for schools22:31
LaserJockbut we're *not* delivering them well is my point22:31
Ahmuck_the other is edu apps22:31
Ahmuck_imho, one needs to split them22:31
LaserJockI'm saying we need to make sure we have the right apps, and that they are in good shape22:31
Ahmuck_ltsp is a type of network system, but doesn't include things like moodle, etc.22:31
Ahmuck_that would be a type of edu system support22:32
Ahmuck_the apps is an pure end user system22:32
Ahmuck_then you have the inbetween, ie, the teachers, who need to see test scores of the apps,e tc.  some way to measure progress22:32
highvoltageLaserJock: that "making sure they're in good shape" is a tough job, but equally important. I agree with you.22:33
Ahmuck_i'd recommend breaking edubuntu into three systems.  the pure ubuntu-ltsp edu support apps22:33
Ahmuck_the instructor interaction apps22:33
Ahmuck_and the pure end user apps22:33
Ahmuck_and creating three different teams22:33
LaserJocknot sure about that one22:33
LaserJockwe don't even have 1 team yet :-)22:33
Ahmuck_or i don't think your going to get a handle on it, because you can't handle everything in the pot22:34
Ahmuck_i'd even say a forth, ie, marketing/testing/recrutiment team22:34
highvoltageAhmuck_: take it from LaserJock and I, just starting up teams doesn't solve any problems22:34
Ahmuck_an edu app team would look only at the edu apps on a ubuntu system and look at how well they run, how well they are adopted, etc.22:35
Ahmuck_i've started 4 in the last year.  it's not easy but it provides a better way to break out the work22:35
highvoltageI have an idea. we should just start a solve-all-our-problems team and then all our problems will be solved. how neat is that?22:35
bencrisford1LaserJock: we have enough people here to run some teams22:37
LaserJockfrankly I don't think we have enough people for even 1 team yet22:37
LaserJockbased on past experience22:37
bencrisford1mark shuttleworth doesnt run ubuntu singehanded :P22:37
bencrisford1if we spread out into different teams22:37
bencrisford1then we do22:37
bencrisford1when ubuntu started there would be dev, art, marketing, docs22:38
bencrisford1sabdfl didnt run them all22:38
bencrisford1we have enough to start a couple core ones22:38
bencrisford1like dev, and packaging ?22:38
LaserJockwe do?22:38
bencrisford1i think so22:38
Ahmuck_so, i'll give you an example.  a year ago, i started a regional lug.  i put the posters up in each town, i host the original meetings, etc.  today we have two strong local community lugs, and another one starting.  lug members are starting to get itchy about getting involved, and i'm able to step away from it more22:38
Ahmuck_they are now doing the organizing, the advertising and the instruction22:38
LaserJockI haven't had a single contributed package in ages22:38
bencrisford1trust me22:39
bencrisford1when we start reforming22:39
bencrisford1more people will come outta the woodworks22:39
LaserJockok, well, I've been doing Ubuntu/Edubuntu development for almost 4 years22:40
highvoltageAhmuck_: I like your enthusiasm, but I think it will benefit both yourself and edubuntu if you take the time to learn a bit more about ubuntu development processes22:40
LaserJockbut perhaps we've got enough momentum going22:40
LaserJockbencrisford1: I would say go for energizing the existing LP teams22:40
LaserJockbut lets not create any new teams on LP just yet22:40
Ahmuck_for example, stgraber could head the ltsp team (me thinks he already does), and nubae sugar (etc.) part of the support app team (core ?), etc.22:40
bencrisford1im not sayign make new ones22:40
LaserJockwe've got something like 13 teams already22:40
bencrisford1(apart from marketing :P)22:40
bencrisford1some of them can go IMO22:41
Ahmuck_13, where?22:41
Ahmuck_highvoltage: what do you mean?22:41
bencrisford1i only found 3 or 4 when i searched22:41
bencrisford1LoCos dont count...  :P22:42
LaserJockI know22:42
LaserJockI counted 14 non-LoCo teams22:42
highvoltageAhmuck_: in terms of the development processes, etc. do you have at least a vague idea of seeds, top-level meta-packages, packaging itself, etc?22:42
Ahmuck_highvoltage: some.  i do my own svn packaging myself for packages that are not getting updated22:43
LaserJocklook, I'm not trying to squash enthusiasm here. I just want to make sure things succeed and Edubuntu gets back off the ground22:44
LaserJockI've tried off-and-on for the last 2 years to get the community re-energized22:44
LaserJockjust declaring teams and making remix DVD is not going to really turn things around22:45
LaserJockwe need to help people to really dig in hard-core22:46
bencrisford1is the advocacy team responsible for marketing then?22:46
LaserJockI think that's what the purpose was22:46
Ahmuck_teams might help you focus.  it appears there are to many extraneous teams now, not the right ones?22:46
bencrisford1LaserJock: I would suggest a fresh start22:46
bencrisford1get rid of all the non-LoCos and start again22:46
bencrisford1all the teams are disorganised anyways22:46
LaserJockwell, it's not that simple22:46
bencrisford12 accepted members, 80 propose members on one team22:47
LaserJocklet's the the people going first and then we can work out the LP teams22:47
highvoltagebencrisford1: that's kind of the plan, but as LaserJock says, not that simple. you also don't want to through away perfectly good work that's already been done22:47
Ahmuck_i'm willing to do a wait and see until the big ubuntu hayday is over ... i'm interested in what comes out of it22:47
LaserJockthe practical matter is that LP teams can't just be taken over22:47
LaserJockwe require the cooperation of the existing team owner22:47
LaserJockseveral of whom are not around any more22:48
Ahmuck_LP == local?22:48
LaserJockLaunchpad == LP22:48
Ahmuck_so if the existing team member is not around, ubuntu doesn't have a way to recoop the team?22:48
Ahmuck_and it just sits?22:48
LaserJockwe can probably convince Launchpad admins that we should take it over22:49
highvoltageLP admins could delete them if need be, but it's a process22:49
LaserJockbut I don't think we can make a good case if we have no people to replace it22:49
LaserJocki.e. "we don't have any people but please delete other people's team anyway"22:49
LaserJockwhereas, "our team is expanding and we need the namespace" is much better22:50
bencrisfothis is bencrisford on ipod22:53
bencrisfocan only type slow so ill just listen in22:54
Ahmuck_school is out, but sys admins have to work through the summer.  i know teachers and admin personally, so i'm going to get an idea what's being used over the next month.  our local school district has an admin that comes in 10 hours a week.  don't know if that's helpful info or not.22:58
LaserJockI think it would be useful to look at what it is that users really want/need22:59
LaserJocksort of generalized22:59
Ahmuck_LaserJock: u r still the lead for edubuntu?23:04
LaserJockgood question23:04
LaserJockin any practical sense I'd say no23:05
Ahmuck_does edubuntu have leadership?23:05
LaserJockI'd prefer perhaps Leader emeritus23:05
LaserJockin any practical sense, no23:06
LaserJockwe had an Edubuntu Council23:06
LaserJockbut 3 out of 5 members I believe are gone23:06
Ahmuck_can a project have direction without active leadership?23:06
LaserJockwell, I think that's kinda where we're at right now23:07
LaserJockwe're all just kinda hanging out figuring out how to move forward23:07
LaserJockI think an important part of that would be to reform the Edubuntu Council23:07
bencrisfoi agree23:08
bencrisfoi need sleep23:09
Ahmuck_i'm out for a while23:09
bencrisfoill talk tommorrow, noght23:09
Ahmuck_here, but afk23:10
Ahmuck_is there a document that shows the core apps or the edu app structure of edubuntu?  ie a structure tree?23:19
Ahmuck_i'd like to see one.23:19
Ahmuck_er, i'd like to view it23:19
LaserJockthere's not really much of a tree23:20
LaserJockI guess there is a little bit now with the ubuntu-edu-* metapackages23:21
LaserJockhttp://www.edubuntu.org/applications/8.10 at least lists them pretty much23:22
LaserJockas far as the edu apps23:22
LaserJockthe seeds have the structure, but it's not easily viewable23:24
Ahmuck_i'm going to create one for myself to get an overview of what's available.  i'll make notes and if it doesn't work or it's clunky, i'll kick those out as i go.  at least somebody will have an idea of what somebody else might be looking for and it'll give a starting structure and breakdown into catagories.  don't expect it for 14 days, as it'll take that time inbetwen what i'm doing now to complete23:25
LaserJocksure, thanks23:26

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!