[00:16] <Ahmuck> nubae: other distros are running circles around edubuntu ?  which distros, i might have to convert
[00:17] <Ahmuck> Lns there is the divide.  ur a tech, so of course it just works.  try it out in the hands of a layman
[00:18] <Ahmuck> is ubuntu getting input from people on jaunty before release?
[00:18] <Ahmuck> how many schools have the resources to do testing.  if ubuntu isn't testing, then it's jaunty beta
[00:19] <Ahmuck> morever, imho, if ur running ltsp or edubuntu and it's not ready, then a seperate upgrade/release schedule needs to be planned and that needs to be tied to the package manager
[02:16] <sbalneav> Evening all
[02:45] <Ahmuck> a week or so?  sounds like there is something going on behind the scenes?
[02:48]  * sbalneav *shrugs*
[02:48] <sbalneav> Did LaserJock officially pack it in?
[02:55] <Ahmuck> he's working on his disertation
[02:56] <Ahmuck> i think that's what did it for him.  so i'd say yes
[02:56] <Ahmuck> looks like nubae kinda dropped his activity.  our lab is running but upon upgrading we ended up with tremendous problems related to ltsp
[02:57] <Ahmuck> what's interesting is that edubuntu thinks that ltsp is not tied to it.  but there is no way i'd deploy 100 edubuntu desktops without ltsp.  who wants to run around updating or correcting every desktop
[03:03] <sbalneav> exactly
[03:05] <sbalneav> What always got to me, and I hope that I'm not sounding too bitter, is that the number of people actually DOING things was so small.  Me, you D. V-A, nubae, LaserJock, HighVoltage, and originally ogra.
[03:07] <sbalneav> We had lots of people shouting "More! More!", and adding lots of suggestions, but when it came to actully having butts in chairs coding, it was the same old people slogging away.
[03:07] <sbalneav> The bug day was where I started to lose interest.
[03:07] <sbalneav> All these teachers screaming "Fix our bugs!" and not ONE of them showed up to help.
[03:08] <sbalneav> sigh.
[03:08] <sbalneav> Oh, well, if we're going to make another go of it, I'm in for another round.
[03:08] <sbalneav> I'm nothing if not a glutton for punishment.
[03:08] <sbalneav> I'm planning on focusing on docs, and getting sabayon going,
[03:09] <sbalneav> One other thing I'd suggest: we tie edubuntu releases to the LTS ubuntu releases, and not to the 6 monthly releases.
[03:09] <sbalneav> We just don't have the personpower to keep up with that pace.
[03:13] <Ahmuck> actually, i might suggest taking the debain direction on releases for edubuntu
[03:13] <Ahmuck> specifically if it aint stable, don't release that particular product
[03:13] <Ahmuck> that allows people breathing space
[03:14] <Ahmuck> and a bulleted item list of what's being worked on ... so if someone asks you can point to the list and say wait your turn
[03:14] <Ahmuck> ah, i'm backreading and neglected to see your tie to LTS.  yes, i'd agree with that
[03:16] <sbalneav> Yeah, either a "when it's done" philosophy, or at least tie to lts.
[05:08] <highvoltage> hey sbalneav
[05:09] <highvoltage> sbalneav: the LTS idea is interesting, I think it's worth while exploring
[08:26] <nubae> morning
[14:47] <sbalneav> highvoltage: hey hey
[14:48] <nubae> sbalneav: yo yo
[14:48] <nubae> nice to see u on the channel
[14:49] <nubae> I've seen some real enthusiasm from new users in the last 2 weeks, lets see if it sticks...
[14:57] <sbalneav> Nice to see you again too!
[15:14] <highvoltage> hey sbalneav, nubae
[15:14] <highvoltage> nubae: it's been nice seeing it
[15:14] <highvoltage> nubae: I'm glad that people still care
[15:15] <nubae> yeah but 'm also glad that non of us is doing anything until we see some action
[15:15] <highvoltage> :/
[15:16] <highvoltage> well, it's not really like that
[15:17] <nubae> sure, I think we need some proof at this stage that something will happen
[15:17] <nubae> anyway a meeting is a good start
[15:17] <nubae> Friday is fine with me
[15:20] <sbalneav> 18:00 utc is 12:00 or so here, fine with me
[15:22] <nubae> need to make sure Laserjock can make it then too, since he's so busy right now
[15:23] <sbalneav> If he's working on his disertation, leave him be. His education's more important than edubuntu.
[15:24] <nubae> for sure, but he may still want to be here, even if its couple minutes
[15:36] <Ahmuck> meeting today?
[15:36] <Ahmuck> i just noticed a e-mail about edubuntu bieng a "community" project.  any chance at this point forking it into something useful?
[15:37]  * sbalneav rolls eyes
[15:37] <sbalneav> And forking it is going to fix it's problems how?
[15:37]  * nubae rolls eyes even further back
[15:37] <Ahmuck> hrm, the complaint is no developers and/or to many restrictions
[15:38] <nubae> in my not so humble opinion, we need to regress back to a time when edubuntu was a distro
[15:38] <Ahmuck> forking it would put the devs outside of those restrictions
[15:38] <nubae> with ltsp in it
[15:38] <sbalneav> What restrictions?!?!
[15:38] <Ahmuck> sheesh, do i really have to do a readback and pull up all the conversations of yesterday?
[15:38] <nubae> maybe the one I just mentioned, though I doubt its a restriction
[15:39] <Ahmuck> ah, so edubuntu is dead in it's own right?
[15:39] <Ahmuck> and conical has had no influence over it's direction
[15:40] <sbalneav> I wasn't here for any conversation yesterday, but I fail to see how we're restricted in ANYTHING, other than too much work to do for too few people.
[15:41] <sbalneav> Which is why I'd suggest tying ourselves to an LTS release, to allow the few people we HAVE more time to work on things, rather than the frantic 6 month time schedule.
[15:41] <nubae> well, we're not exactly being praised by canonical, in other words, it doesnt seem to care about edubuntu too much
[15:41] <nubae> or do what opensuse does which is create snapshots on a very regular basis and ask people to rsync to the latest dvd (which includes everything educational) about 2 gigs
[15:42] <nubae> this way incremental images can be downloaded... this is for livedvds, which in my opinion is really really necessary for edubuntu
[15:43] <nubae> some kind of theme applied to a livecd/dvd that really shows its an educational project with a nice choice of both server and client applications
[15:43] <sbalneav> I'm fine with the idea of producing an actual distro.  I'm EVEN fine with saying we must be distributed on a DVD.  One of ogra's biggest headaches was trying to fit everything on a cd.  If we're "community" based now, and someone's willing to do the work on producing the dvd images, I think it would be a good thing.
[15:43] <Ahmuck> when does the meeting start?  i'm us central
[15:44] <Ahmuck> what was the problem with creating cd's ?
[15:44] <sbalneav> Friday at 12:00 central was mentioned, although, with the exception of LaserJock, we've kind of got most of the people here now :)
[15:45] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: 2 problems
[15:45] <Ahmuck> good, pre-meeting is running ? :)
[15:45] <sbalneav> 1) Canonical's policy of "must be cd and not dvd", which, as a community project, we're not bound to.
[15:45] <sbalneav> now, anyway
[15:46] <sbalneav> 2) finding someone to do the work.
[15:46] <sbalneav> 2) being the central edubuntu problem in general :)
[15:46] <Ahmuck> what is wrong with getting it on a cd?  that's the question i meant to ask
[15:46] <sbalneav> Too much stuff.
[15:47] <Ahmuck> how so.  it's simply a theme with additional programs.  why can't the additional programs be downloaded after the install?
[15:47] <sbalneav> All base ubuntu programs + langpacks + edubuntu software > 700 mb
[15:47] <Ahmuck> any reason not to have a net based install?
[15:47] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: What do you do for people with no internet access?
[15:47] <sbalneav> Say, people in Brazil
[15:47] <nubae> we can make 2 things, a dvd that is the main thing we concentrate on and then a really speedy thinned down maybe even xfce based edu live cd that can be put onto usb stick too
[15:48] <sbalneav> or in south africa
[15:48] <Ahmuck> r people in brazil, if they don't have internet going to have dvd ?
[15:48] <nubae> people in Brazil generally have internet
[15:48] <sbalneav> DVD may be EASIER to get than internet
[15:48] <nubae> its more in places like Nepal, Mongolia
[15:48] <Ahmuck> but won't do a thing if you don't have a dvd player
[15:48] <sbalneav> nubae: in the major urban centers, yes
[15:49] <sbalneav> in the more rural areas no.
[15:49] <Ahmuck> even in our area, people are still using comptuers that only have cdrom
[15:49] <alkisg> I wonder, if people don't have internet, isn't it easier to send them a dvd with full language support than for them to download it over the internet? Cause the CD doesn't have e.g. greek lang support...
[15:49] <nubae> well, there they dont have money for a computer either usually :-)
[15:49] <alkisg> Same for progs
[15:49] <sbalneav> nubae: No, they have computers
[15:49] <alkisg> (hi sbalneav, long time no see :))
[15:49] <Ahmuck> i'd like to see a cd with the core, and then a second cd with additional programs
[15:49] <sbalneav> I've been to brazil twice, and I'm going there again in 5 weeks for FISL
[15:49] <nubae> yeah, I think its important that edubuntu be a distro for those reasons
[15:50] <nubae> oh no... just 2 different approaches
[15:50] <sbalneav> hey hey alkisg nubae Ahmuck highvoltage etc etc if I forgot any hello's !:)
[15:50] <nubae> one would be to enable slower older computers to run a edubuntu image
[15:50] <Ahmuck> for example, i'm kubuntu and use ubuntu ltsp in the lab.  however we download things like scribus, gimp, etc. both in the office and in the lab
[15:50] <nubae> and the other is the nice jam packed dvd with all the best edu on it
[15:50] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: That's what we've got now.  Ubuntu plus edubuntu addon cd
[15:51] <nubae> that has to go, please tell me that is a possibility
[15:51] <Ahmuck> correct, u have ubuntu on a cd plus the add on edubuntu.  why not edubuntu with an addon cd for the programs
[15:51] <sbalneav> the problem that nubae points out is, if you want to SHOW someone edubuntu, you can't.
[15:51] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: as far as I understand we have less restrictions now than ever
[15:51] <sbalneav> you have to install ubuntu, then install the addon cd.
[15:51]  * Ahmuck needs to look at the addon cd
[15:51] <nubae> so we create 2 images... one for cds, and one for dvd
[15:52] <nubae> usb sticks are becoming ever more popular to load from too
[15:52] <nubae> especially in schools
[15:52] <sbalneav> Sure, sounds good
[15:52] <nubae> so that is another area to focus on
[15:52] <Ahmuck> i'd really like to see edubuntu on a cd with ltsp as a option, but without the programs.  the program can be just that a "program" cd
[15:52] <sbalneav> (and I'm yelling purely for comic effect here)
[15:52] <sbalneav> WHO'S GOING TO PRODUCE THESE IMAGES?! :)
[15:53] <sbalneav> hehe
[15:53] <Ahmuck> i'll be glad to look at that this week.
[15:53] <Ahmuck> btw, i know no programming
[15:54] <sbalneav> I'm more "upstream".  producing cd's is more of a packaging thing, and I think my talents (! such as they are) are better spent fixing bugs in LTSP, Documentation, and programs like Sabayon.
[15:54] <sbalneav> all the "packaging policy" stuff just confuses me.
[15:54] <alkisg> If edubuntu is going to become a live dvd, I'm willing to spend several weeks on it (casper or whatever it takes) to help out.
[15:55] <Ahmuck> k, let me ask a different question.  what is edubuntu?
[15:55] <nubae> fine, well, I understand packaging and iso creation quite well so I am glad to work on that
[15:55] <sbalneav> Edubuntu, to me, should be "a classroom on a (cd|dvd)"
[15:55] <nubae> its really not rocket science at all
[15:56] <Ahmuck> what is a classroom on a cd?
[15:56] <nubae> there are many automated tools to get that out there
[15:56] <Ahmuck> is there a definitive list of what a classroom is?
[15:56] <nubae> yup, themed cd with basic edu apps
[15:56] <Ahmuck> is there a list of edu apps?
[15:56] <sbalneav> A combination of an operating system, educational programs, and a thin client solution with management tools bundled in.
[15:56] <nubae> well, I send Laserjock a long list of includable apps that seemed to work great in the classroom
[15:57] <nubae> right!
[15:57] <Ahmuck> are we talking childrens apps, or classroom apps?
[15:57] <nubae> both Ahmuck
[15:57] <bencrisford_> sorry to be awkward - what are we talkin about?
[15:57] <bencrisford_> i only just got home
[15:57] <nubae> there is a server component side (moodle, class, mahara, koha, LAMP stack) and there is the python activities
[15:57] <sbalneav> nubae: You may *think* it's not rocket science, but beleive me, don't sell yourself short.  I think all the "rules and regulations" surrounding packaging are VERY complex to me, and I admire anyone who can make heads or tails of them.
[15:57] <nubae> such as gcompris, childsplay, etc etc
[15:58] <nubae> sbalneav: I use opensusebuild service to package sugar, and we spec files, no policy there, which makes it a great deal easier and faster
[15:59] <nubae> but raelly, its just about knowing which deps and the name of the deps
[15:59] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: I'd say, currently, edubuntu's focus has been on K-12
[15:59] <nubae> as they vary from distro to distro
[16:00]  * bencrisford_ wonders what he missed :(
[16:00] <alkisg> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/05/20/%23edubuntu.html
[16:00] <sbalneav> bencrisford_: In a word, we're trying to re-kickstart edubuntu development.
[16:00] <bencrisford_> ah yeah :) weve been discussing this for days though
[16:00] <bencrisford_> even weeks
[16:00] <bencrisford_> i only been here for a few days though
[16:01] <sbalneav> Maybe we could attack the problem in this way:
[16:02] <sbalneav> Lets do a skills inventory of everyone here, what parts they're willing/wanting to work on, and then fit things out from there...
[16:02] <sbalneav> I'll go first
[16:03] <sbalneav> For bencrisford_'s benefit, I'm Scott Balneaves, mainly with the LTSP project.  I'm interested in 1) working on the LTSP thin client side of things 2) working on both LTSP documentation AND the edubuntu handbook, 3) Fixing bugs in management apps like Sabayon, and 4) Fixing general bugs in apps, either C or Python are my specialties.
[16:04] <bencrisford_> ok nice :)
[16:04] <nubae> hmmm ok, should I go next?
[16:04] <sbalneav> It's all you, dude :)
[16:05] <bencrisford_> mind if i jump in next?
[16:06] <bencrisford_> My name's Ben Crisford, i've been contributing to ubuntu for a while, and working on a couple of projects (including eskole which is related).  I am fairly experienced with bug triaging and marketing, and slightly more experienced with documentation.
[16:06] <bencrisford_> I have skills in web development
[16:06] <bencrisford_> and some software development ability
[16:06] <nubae> I'm David Van Assche, also worked quite closely with LTSP project, especially the ltsp manual, which actually is very relevant to ubuntu as we know, and I am pretty good at shell coding, having created the fat client script, and I know php fairly well so web side based stuff is not out of the wquestion either. I'm the oficial sugar package manager for opensuse
[16:07] <nubae> Sugar is my main focus, and would be for ubuntu too
[16:07] <bencrisford_> Yeah id like to get involved in whatever I can
[16:07] <bencrisford_> hopefully some bug fixes
[16:07] <nubae> well, that and getting a nice stack of edu apps running
[16:07] <nubae> bugfixing and hacking at code I don't really like unless I'm forced to do that
[16:07] <sbalneav> nubae and I, without putting too fine a point on it, have really produced the first, and pretty much only, ltsp5 doco :)
[16:08] <nubae> hehe, yeah indeed
[16:08] <alkisg> Alkis Georgopoulos - I'm a Greek teacher using Ubuntu/LTSP for the last two years, experienced windows :( programmer, still new to linux administration/bug reporting-fixing/packaging but I'm learning fast, willing to spend a lot of time on whatever it takes (e.g. casper, live ltsp stuff) to make edubuntu a live dvd.
[16:08] <sbalneav> alkisg: go, dude
[16:08] <sbalneav> whoops, you're too fast for me
[16:08] <alkisg> Heh :)
[16:09] <nubae> so, another question, what archs do we want to target if it becomes a distro...
[16:09] <nubae> I'd imagine one possibility would be to take netbook remix and educationalise it
[16:09] <sbalneav> Ahmuck, then highvoltage
[16:09] <nubae> that could be the smaller cd
[16:09] <sbalneav> eunr would be cool
[16:10] <nubae> yeah it would
[16:10] <nubae> it would give us an original product apart from the dvd
[16:10] <nubae> something to give us the edge again in the distro scene
[16:10] <bencrisford_> Why don't we think about a WUBI/portable ubuntu style thing, where you can run edubuntu and it would give you an educationalised main menu for you to move around
[16:10] <bencrisford_> that would be a starting point ?
[16:11] <nubae> thats whaat netbook remix is bencrisford_
[16:11] <bencrisford_> oh
[16:11] <bencrisford_> lol sorry
[16:12] <sbalneav> One of the FIRST things I think we should decide, is who we're tied to.  The 6 month releases? Or the LTS with some backports?
[16:13] <bencrisford_> depends on how many developers/contributors we get
[16:13] <bencrisford_> perhaps we should wait for the UDS
[16:13] <nubae> why either of them... we could say we'll release something when we're at 0.5
[16:13] <nubae> u know... go into beta mode
[16:13] <highvoltage> sbalneav: hmm?
[16:13] <nubae> and after that go with LTS indeed
[16:14] <sbalneav> highvoltage: what are your skills, and what are you interested in working on.
[16:14] <bencrisford_> not a bad idea :)
[16:14] <sbalneav> just for the record, so we know where we're at.
[16:15] <sbalneav> nubae: ok, but if you want to produce a live cd, what do we use?  Jaunty? Or Hardy?
[16:15] <nubae> Jaunty, and then go with the next LTS
[16:16] <nubae> we need to make sure we've got the latest libs and stuff for many of the new and upcoming edu apps/projects
[16:16] <nubae> hardy would make us again stuck in the past
[16:16] <sbalneav> OK, sounds reasonable.
[16:17] <sbalneav> I'm willing to suspect most teachers will want to stick with LTS long term
[16:17] <nubae> for sure
[16:17] <alkisg> Yes, as long as they don't miss important stuff, e.g. some new flash version that's fast with ltsp and doesn't hang up :P
[16:18] <nubae> but we must make it easy for them to upgrade, and seperate apps by subject/theeme
[16:18] <dtrask> hey
[16:18] <nubae> well, we can be in beta to begin with addding everything we want
[16:18] <nubae> until we are happy...
[16:18] <sbalneav> and if we get ourselves up to the point where we're tracking LTS, it gives US time to work on things rather than the frenetic 6 month cycle, which, quite frankly, I just don't have the time to commit to.
[16:18] <nubae> then we go along with LTS
[16:19] <nubae> right, me either, but in the beginning we're gonna have to put some good time in
[16:19] <nubae> mostly its just creating metapackages
[16:19] <nubae> ie, science, maths, languages, etc etc
[16:19] <sbalneav> I will go on record, right now, that if we're going to try to make a go of this, I'll find the time.
[16:19] <nubae> then we decide to carry both kde and gnome, and Sugar as windows managers so there is greater choice
[16:19] <nubae> add LTSP and LDAP support
[16:20] <dtrask> amen to LDAP
[16:20] <alkisg> Live LTSP, or only after the hd installation?
[16:20] <sbalneav> ldap's a big one.
[16:20] <nubae> well, opensuse has it integrated really nicely
[16:21] <sbalneav> Did opensuse just pick a "standard" way to do it, and build on that?
[16:21] <nubae> so we should look at how we can copy what they've done. They do it through yast, but in fact their entire user managament is really great. User management is something REALLY lacking ubuntu...
[16:21] <nubae> do u think we could put LDAP support into sabayon?
[16:21] <sbalneav> nubae: it's in there already
[16:21] <sbalneav> it's just not normally compiled in.
[16:21] <nubae> well, they just look like guis to what is being done underneath, but because they have 90% prefilled in, LDAP is really easy to install
[16:21] <sbalneav> I am still 100% committed to getting sabayon working.
[16:22] <dtrask> Are we talking LDAP on the client side....server side....or both?
[16:22] <sbalneav> both.
[16:22] <sbalneav> AFAIK
[16:22] <dtrask> Good....that's one thing I've always felt was lacking in Linux in education
[16:22] <nubae> yes both for sure
[16:23] <dtrask> cool
[16:23] <nubae> especially if its LTSP
[16:23] <dtrask> amen
[16:23] <dtrask> I use it now, but it's kludgy
[16:23] <highvoltage> ~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~
[16:23] <dtrask> not for novices
[16:23] <nubae> well, like I said, its just about copying what opensuse has done there, and letting sbalneav hack at sabayon
[16:23] <dtrask> I have full faith in sbalneav
[16:23] <nubae> it could be integrated with the user management interface to create something really nice
[16:23] <dtrask> :-)
[16:24] <sbalneav> dtrask: Boy, have I got YOU fooled :)
[16:24] <dtrask> LOL
[16:24] <nubae> so sabayon+pessulus+usermanagment interface would be something really nice
[16:24] <sbalneav> nubae: the standard user-management tools REALLY need to be made LDAP aware
[16:24] <nubae> that could then allow for contorl of groups, themes, ldap, etc
[16:24] <nubae> yep they do
[16:25] <sbalneav> nubae+++++++++++++++
[16:25] <sbalneav> And *that*s one of the things I'd want to focus on first
[16:25] <nubae> which is why we should try and see if we cant laterally combine some of this stuff and steal code from the other distros doing it the right way :-)
[16:25] <nubae> yep, indeed without that, we dont have much
[16:25] <sbalneav> as it's (one of) our most GLARING shortcomings now.
[16:25] <nubae> with it, a revolution takes place
[16:25] <nubae> totally agree with you
[16:26] <nubae> using fedora or opensuse that hits u almost instantly...
[16:26] <sbalneav> touching NOTHING else, if we could (within say a 6 month timeframe) produce:
[16:26] <nubae> u just notice u-m there sitting sad and alone, totally unaware of anything but .passwd/.shadow and .group
[16:26] <sbalneav> 1) A live DVD with the existing edubuntu program set...
[16:27] <nubae> a live cd with netbook remix
[16:27] <nubae> edu
[16:27] <sbalneav> 2) that integrated a WORKING solution for sabayon+pesselus+gui useradd+ldap+bulk user csv add support
[16:27] <dtrask> hey brendan
[16:27] <nubae> sbalneav: I'm with you
[16:28] <Ahmuck> I'm Dale.  I'm a user with some admin capabilities.  I run an independent ubuntu ltsp community lab.  I have the ability to do user testing.  My time is limited by me and what I decide to do during the course of the week.  I've done some scripting, but that is the extent of my programming.  I tend to organize large community projects.  I'm a starter, and then move on to the next thing after getting a foundation in place.
[16:28] <sbalneav> and 3) a REASONABLE up to date handbook + ltsp docs
[16:28] <sbalneav> we'd be LIGHYEARS ahead of where we are now.
[16:28] <nubae> u know with a little shell scripting and zenity we could cheat a little
[16:28] <sbalneav> nubae: Sure
[16:28] <sbalneav> I'm not above cheating :)
[16:28] <dtrask> LOL
[16:29] <nubae> cool, well then I see the work infront of us... I will make sure sugar can be packaged for ubuntu, and thats easy enough since we're automating to make .debs from open build service
[16:30] <nubae> Same goes for any other packages that we feel dont need oficial maintaining...
[16:30] <Ahmuck> I do a lot of linux promotion, but am making decisions this month if i should be staying with an ubuntu ltsp distro.  i like the theme in edubuntu, and some programs, but prefer to choose what applications are needed.  we do have children frequent the labs, but i need support for windows apps
[16:30] <nubae> so... we're kind of saying, we are going to be much more relaxed about rules and regulations
[16:30] <sbalneav> nubae: certainly, for a much faster ldap user add tool, it may be faster to just implement something in python GTK that does the ldap aware adds, rather than trying to hack something into the Gnome user add tools.
[16:30] <nubae> for example... flash and pdf will be integrated from the start, gasp!
[16:31] <nubae> sbalneav: there are lots of proggies already... we just need to find the right one
[16:31] <sbalneav> yeah
[16:31] <nubae> I'm just saying shell scripting and zenity can be the glue
[16:31] <sbalneav> yessir
[16:32] <nubae> lateral software architecture
[16:32] <nubae> :-)
[16:32] <sbalneav> And for now, jaunty's going to be the base we're going to work on.
[16:32] <nubae> yep because we are officially in beta, we can even use karmic packages if we want
[16:33] <Ahmuck> having a full distro with edu apps doesn't work for me.  having a themed distro with open office, scribus, gimp, wine (for artrage), and selectable edu apps works better
[16:33] <nubae> it just depends on what works and what doesnt
[16:33] <Ahmuck> is karmic the LTS release ?
[16:33] <Ahmuck> ah, and content filtering
[16:33] <nubae> Ahmuck: there will be 2 possibilities, a netbook remix-edu, or a big dvd with everything educational we ever wanted, both backend and frontend
[16:34] <Ahmuck> it doesn't make sense to have an edu with content filtering
[16:34] <nubae> thats dansguardian, we can definetly look into inlcuding that and squid as default
[16:34] <dtrask> hey....to add something here....We're about to launch the Open 1-to-1 initiative (www.open1to1.org) using ubuntu (UNR) as our OS and setting up a community driven initiative to support 1 to 1 computing in schools.  In Maine (USA) we currently have an Apple based 1-to-1 initiative, but now there is an opportunity to get a foothold with Ubuntu and netbooks/low cost laptops as the state has kinda' dropped the ball on the latest expansion and schools are "opti
[16:34] <nubae> with?
[16:34] <dtrask> sorry to dump that in...no easy way to drop it in the conversation at the "right time"
[16:35] <nubae> didnt finish though it stops at opti
[16:35] <Ahmuck> dtrask: i've intensley interested in that link
[16:35] <nubae> a lot of what has been done for the XS server (that will work with the xos) can be taken and included into the classroom server experience
[16:36] <dtrask> hmmm...for me the whole thing shows up....I'll repost in 2 parts
[16:36] <dtrask> hey....to add something here....We're about to launch the Open 1-to-1 initiative (http://www.open1to1.org/) using ubuntu (UNR) as our OS and setting up a community driven initiative to support 1 to 1 computing in schools.  In Maine (USA) we currently have an Apple based 1-to-1 initiative, but now there is an opportunity to get a foothold with Ubuntu and netbooks/low cost laptops as the state has kinda' dropped the ball on the latest expansion and schools
[16:36] <dtrask> Maine already has a strong Linux/LTSP/Edubuntu base...so we're putting together an organization to support the "rebel alliance" so to speak.  Letting you know...and that we could use some help (reciprocal of course) with image development....tech support on forums...etc.  This could end up with a large install base that can be used as an example or springboard for the future.
[16:36] <dtrask> there...can you see it all now?
[16:37] <sbalneav> I've got a meeting here at $work in a few minutes I've got to prepare for.  I'll be afk for a couple of hours.
[16:37] <sbalneav> be back later
[16:37] <Ahmuck> i'm afk as well till this evening
[16:37] <dtrask> afk?
[16:37] <Ahmuck> away from keyboard
[16:37] <dtrask> away from keyboard?
[16:38] <dtrask> LOL
[16:38] <dtrask> got it...thx
[16:39] <dtrask> If any of you are interested in discussing Open 1to1 more...shoot me an email at dtrask_AT_vcsvikings.org
[16:39] <dtrask> It has lots of exciting possibilities
[16:40] <dtrask> and since we're building on an existing and very large one-to-one project...it could go very well
[16:40] <dtrask> and then, of course, we hope to be able to help everyone around the world implement 1-to-1 projects in schools
[16:41] <dtrask> brendan0powers: did you see the stuff above about LDAP?
[16:42] <nubae> well we shuold really use the alternate cd as a base
[16:42] <nubae> since that has the f4 option for ltsp
[16:42] <nubae> I've got to go too though, work beckons
[16:43] <dtrask> work?  what's that?  ;-)
[16:43] <dtrask> me too....and lunch beckons too
[16:43]  * dtrask hungry
[16:45] <brendan0powers> dtrask: nope
[16:46] <dtrask> brendan0powers: just sent you the chat in email
[16:47] <brendan0powers> oh
[16:47] <brendan0powers> k
[16:47] <brendan0powers> I'l read it
[16:49] <Ahmuck_> fwiw, in my area, we are converting users to linux on the average of 1 a week.  that may not seem like a lot, but we don't have the numbers that the cities doe
[16:51] <alkisg> nubae: alternate? no live stuff?
[16:52] <alkisg> afaik, debian is going to switch to a gui installer...
[16:59] <nubae> well alternative with live
[17:00] <nubae> so we'd move the f4 option to the live dvd/cd, and allow even ltsping from a live distro.... opensuse does this and it works, its also a cool way to show it working just from a live cd, dvd or usb stick
[17:02] <nubae> I'm even gonna say we should make the easy-ltsp gui the main way of editing  lts.conf
[17:02] <alkisg> nubae: the alternate cd is based on a different technology than the live desktop cd
[17:03] <alkisg> So they can't be compined, only one of them can be selected
[17:03] <nubae> right.... really we'll be basing it off the live dvd
[17:04] <alkisg> OK. And, if LTSP is on the live dvd, then there's no point in an F4 option
[17:04] <nubae> and we'll have a fully installed and functional ltsp server using the easy-ltsp gui for management
[17:04] <nubae> so then there will be the installer that installs either with or without classroom server
[17:04] <nubae> ie, acts like  server, acts like a desktop
[17:05] <alkisg> AFAIK, whatever runs on a live dvd is going to be installed unless some script uninstalls it
[17:05] <alkisg> So if e.g. LTSP is on the live dvd, then an uninstaller should be written for those that do not want it.
[17:06] <alkisg> But someone should read on casper for this...
[17:06] <nubae> but I dont think we need seperate cds/dvds for the user experience. In my opinion being able to show off ltsp and the edubunut edu apps + edu themes and colours and the great ldap+user-manager+sabayon+pessulus is what we want
[17:06] <nubae> alkisg: right, we will add a bunch of scripts using zenity that customise the system.
[17:06] <alkisg> I fully agree with that, but I thought that some people wanted the dvd to be able to install workstations, too
[17:10] <Ahmuck> therein lies my problem.  needing the ability to pick our apps
[17:14] <nubae> it will do both ahmuck
[17:14] <nubae> and the remix-edu will be even for small devices and phones
[17:14] <nubae> or older systems
[17:15] <nubae> we will add the option of sending  a fatclient image of remix-edu to the workstations
[17:15] <Ahmuck> nubae: i'd be interested in how you create the cd/dvd.  i'd like to do a custom *untu cd/dvd for local.  ie top apps and a kansas theme
[17:15] <nubae> we could even add standard images for kde and xfce
[17:16] <nubae> we need to catch up to opensuse
[17:17] <Ahmuck> opensuse is that good ?
[17:17] <nubae> they already have many predefined images to install, either via nomad where if the cable is pulled out, u dont loose the connection, and AOE, which seems to be slightly faster and more efficient for fat images... They also do fatclient clustering...
[17:17] <nubae> right now... its amazing
[17:17] <nubae> really, everything is easy to install and maintain
[17:17] <nubae> very little command line stuff
[17:18] <nubae> I've been using it as my main desktop os for a good 2 months now, and it hasn't crashed on me, there are tons of good options, and the gui management possibilities from users to groups, samba to ldap, and ltsp.... just make it all work
[17:18] <nubae> oh and the latest set of sugar tools too
[17:21] <Ahmuck_> so, i'm about to ask a very nasty question.  is there a reason to develop edubuntu?>
[17:25] <nubae> well yes of course
[17:25] <nubae> because ubuntu is a great base
[17:26] <nubae> this is not a race, but a collaboration
[17:58] <LaserJock> hello Edubuntu land!
[18:01] <Lns> hey LaserJock =)
[18:03] <LaserJock> hi Lns
[18:03] <highvoltage> hey LaserJock
[18:03] <LaserJock> how's the business going?
[18:03] <highvoltage> \o/
[18:03] <highvoltage> LaserJock: we missed you, have you been busy with your dissertation?
[18:03] <Lns> It's going OK, planning for the future!
[18:03] <LaserJock> highvoltage: very very busy
[18:04] <LaserJock> highvoltage: did a job interview and walked at commencement
[18:04] <LaserJock> had family visiting and worked on cars
[18:04] <LaserJock> very busy lately :-)
[18:05] <highvoltage> LaserJock: we're having a meeting at 18:00 UTC tomorrow, will you be able to join?
[18:05] <highvoltage> LaserJock: you said before that that's a good time for you generally
[18:05] <LaserJock> oh, darn
[18:06] <LaserJock> actually I have a meeting with my advisor at 18:00
[18:06] <LaserJock> I miscalculated the time diff, I thought I'd be OK
[18:11] <highvoltage> LaserJock: any other time tomorrow evening?
[18:12]  * bencrisford_ is new here LaserJock
[18:12] <bencrisford_> :)
[18:13] <LaserJock> hi bencrisford_
[18:13] <bencrisford_> hi =]
[18:13] <LaserJock> highvoltage: would 20:00 UTC be OK?
[18:13] <LaserJock> or is that too late for the UTC+2 crowd?
[18:14] <LaserJock> or for that matter, I wonder if you guys should just go on without me
[18:14] <bencrisford_> sorry to be awkward - whats this?  ive only had snippets of the conversation because of my internet
[18:14] <bencrisford_> whats at 8 UTC tomoz?
[18:14] <LaserJock> bencrisford_: we're scheduling a "future of Edubuntu" IRC meeting
[18:14] <bencrisford_> ah :)
[18:15] <bencrisford_> weve been talking about it for days
[18:15] <bencrisford_> but i thought we were gonna wait for UDS?
[18:15] <highvoltage> LaserJock: sorry I was confused, I meant on Friday, not tomorrow
[18:16] <LaserJock> oh, right
[18:16] <LaserJock> maybe that's why I thought it was OK
[18:16] <LaserJock> :-)
[18:16] <LaserJock> highvoltage: yep, I'm good for Friday at 18:00 UTC I think
[18:16] <highvoltage> so is 18:00 UTC on friday evenin ok?
[18:16] <highvoltage> ok cool, I'll send it like that to the list
[18:17] <LaserJock> highvoltage: you can't say "evening" or you'll get me confused
[18:17] <LaserJock> 18:00 UTC will be 11am for me ;-)
[18:18] <bencrisford_> LaserJock: IMO we should spread the word about it a bit, get some new prospective developers to turn up
[18:18] <bencrisford_> so everyones ideas are heard
[18:18] <highvoltage> LaserJock: heh
[18:18] <LaserJock> bencrisford_: I'll blog it on Planet Ubuntu
[18:19] <LaserJock> and if the email goes out to edubuntu-devel, -users and ubuntu-devel I think that should be fairly good coverage
[18:22] <nubae> LaserJockus!
[18:22] <nubae> :-)
[18:22] <nubae> ;-)
[18:23] <nubae> LaserJock: we've been discussing how to move forward with edubuntu, and some of us were imagining it becoming a distro again
[18:23] <nubae> like the other edu projects
[18:24] <nubae> the fact that its an addon seems to be something that really is not understandable and as much sense as it makes, it somehow doesn't, if u know what I mean
[18:24] <nubae> If we had a live dvd to show off with lots of universe and multiverse apps, working ltsp with gui, and a better user management system, we'd be half way there
[18:25] <nubae> then the possibility of launching other window managers would be another great thing (xfce, kde, sugar)
[18:25] <LaserJock> nubae: what does openSUSE Edu do? I thought they were just a repo
[18:25] <nubae> nah way man... its a whole distro, and its very progressive
[18:25] <LaserJock> hmm
[18:25] <nubae> http://en.opensuse.org/Education/Team
[18:25] <nubae> take a look at the team
[18:26] <LaserJock> so you can actually download a CD/DVD?
[18:26] <nubae> its gonna hurt a bit to see the contributor list
[18:26] <Lns> nubae: you sure love touting opensuse in here =p
[18:26] <nubae> there are various different images, based on kde, gnome, and/or sugar
[18:26]  * Lns wonders if he's working for novell
[18:26] <nubae> Lns: I was asked...
[18:27] <nubae> and in my opinion and others we should be moving in the same direction they are
[18:27] <nubae> http://en.opensuse.org/Education/
[18:27] <LaserJock> well
[18:27] <LaserJock> we need to think carefully here
[18:27] <nubae> its a good example of a project where the educational side is clearly understood and works quite well
[18:27] <nubae> yeah I agree
[18:27] <nubae> what me and sbalneav were saying before is, we could do 2 things
[18:28] <nubae> create a remix-edu that works on lightweight machines
[18:28] <nubae> and create a whopper dvd that has a nice selection of everything both server side and client side
[18:28] <nubae> of course we'd need the people to maintain such a beast
[18:28] <nubae> but it would be better than where we are at the moment, which is in a dying project
[18:29] <nubae> if it wasn't for you, the last 2-3 releases wouldn't even have existed
[18:29] <Lns> I'm honestly wondering why people are so tied up with making entire distros just to make it suitable for a certain use case
[18:29] <nubae> so obviously we need to take drastic measures
[18:29] <LaserJock> ok, but there are considerations here
[18:29] <highvoltage> LaserJock:  you don't mind if I blog about it too do you?
[18:29] <LaserJock> highvoltage: certainly not
[18:29] <highvoltage> cool
[18:29] <nubae> Lns: the point is, if I want to install edubuntu in a school, I need an example
[18:30] <LaserJock> 1 consideration is that it is far from trivial to get new .iso/images hosted
[18:30] <Lns> What ever happened to simply making a very easy to follow guide to configuring your system?
[18:30] <nubae> and even if not, a live dvd/cd/usb makes total sense in schools
[18:30] <nubae> thats how sugar is being majorly promoted... sugar on a stick
[18:30] <Lns> ok, i see that makes sense
[18:31] <nubae> well, we need edubuntu on a stick
[18:31] <nubae> or on a cd at least
[18:31] <LaserJock> CD won't work
[18:31] <LaserJock> it needs to be a stick
[18:31] <Lns> but still, how many teachers are apt to boot to a usbstick/dvd? Will they understand what's happening? If LTSP is integrated, will they know what to do?
[18:31] <nubae> and I think doing remix-edu would be really cool
[18:31] <Lns> Basically maybe my question is, who specifically are we marketing to ? IT Admins at schools, teachers, ?
[18:32] <nubae> Lns: no, thats a sysadmins job, doing the lts part
[18:32] <nubae> ltsp
[18:32] <LaserJock> Lns: I think the Edubuntu-on-a-stick would be for marketing
[18:32] <LaserJock> i.e. "this is what you get when you  install Edubuntu"
[18:32] <nubae> right
[18:32] <nubae> but we also need to expand what we're offering
[18:32] <Lns> Who's gonna pay for the usb sticks?
[18:32] <Lns> or will it be a usb image downloadable?
[18:33] <LaserJock> Lns: Edubuntu would provide the images
[18:33] <nubae> we can't continue having 'just the officially supported apps by canonical'
[18:33] <LaserJock> like the netbook remix for instance
[18:33] <LaserJock> nubae: we can but we should have more
[18:33] <nubae> netbookremix-edu would be a totally original product
[18:33] <LaserJock> we could fairly easily limit ourselves to Main apps for a USB stick
[18:33] <nubae> something we could really compete with
[18:34] <nubae> and then offering fatclient images of various types that run over ltsp would also give us an edge
[18:34] <LaserJock> well, we need to really look at feasibility here
[18:34] <nubae> I'm just thinking how we can make a difference
[18:34] <LaserJock> we have *barely* maintained an addon cd
[18:34]  * Lns thinks we should get together a video team and produce YT vids
[18:34] <nubae> thats easily done... as long as we have the space on the dvd
[18:35] <nubae> LaserJock: well, its a problem of not enough people, and if that problem now seems to be going away and people are comitting themselves as it seems they are
[18:35] <LaserJock> well, we need enough of the right people
[18:36] <LaserJock> it's really really not as trivial as people are saying to maintain .iso/images in Ubuntu
[18:36] <LaserJock> there's lots of QA involved and you have to be on top of things
[18:36] <LaserJock> so we should be careful about making targets that we are in no position to be able to implement
[18:37] <LaserJock> not that we should ditch long-term goals
[18:37] <nubae> sure learning objects would be great... on opensuse-edu we've created a moodle instance and mahara and we are focusing on putting the wiki stuff all through there instead, to foster and encourage moodle's usage
[18:37] <LaserJock> but rebuilding Edubuntu *has* to start small or it won't leave the ground
[18:37] <nubae> LaserJock: the problem is we dont really have a distro and unless we have one its gonna die out... I know u understand that
[18:38]  * Lns sighs
[18:38] <nubae> this idea of addons is great practically, but very bad in every other sense
[18:38] <LaserJock> well
[18:38] <nubae> I mean, we even came to the conclusion the other day that they might as well just install the packages from the ubuntu repo
[18:39] <nubae> that just makes edubuntu a bunch of metapackages
[18:39] <nubae> is that what we want the world to think edubuntu is?
[18:39] <nubae> a bundling of already existing apps?
[18:39] <alkisg> (08:30:10 μμ) Lns: What ever happened to simply making a very easy to follow guide to configuring your system? => I've made one, and it's 100 pages. Not easy for a teacher to follow. With a live dvd similar to what nubae proposed, a teacher can see the end result in his lab with no guide, and install it with a very small guide.
[18:39] <Lns> Can we learn at all from Debian's "Tasks" during install? I.E. LAMP, "web server" "file server" etc
[18:40] <LaserJock> Lns: we already have them
[18:40] <LaserJock> we have LTSP, Edubuntu Desktop, and Edubuntu KDE Desktop tasks
[18:40] <LaserJock> you can, hopefully, install them from the Jaunty Ubuntu DVD
[18:40] <Lns> LaserJock: k..
[18:40] <nubae> Debian also makes many mistakes though. One example is Sugar... they are stuck at 0.82 because of one maintainer, meaning we too are stuck at 0.82, while the rest of the world uses the latest Sugar... basically its another lost opportunity to promote edubuntu
[18:41] <LaserJock> right
[18:41] <LaserJock> but that doesn't mean all of debian is bad
[18:41] <Lns> isn't that what PPAs/unofficial repos are for?
[18:41] <nubae> LaserJock: so do u agreee we should go back to being a distro?
[18:41] <LaserJock> I'm not positive yet
[18:42] <LaserJock> I *want* to do that, but I'm not sure how feasible it is in the short term
[18:42] <nubae> Lns: we are creating the debian packages through opensuse's build service now :-)
[18:42] <LaserJock> we *could* have gotten Sugar 0.84 in Jaunty
[18:42] <nubae> there's irony in that, but at least the ubuntu users who want to try the latest sugar will be able to
[18:42] <Lns> nubae: oook?
[18:42] <nubae> no we couldnt
[18:43] <nubae> debian's 0.83 (the dev version of sugar) doesnt even run read or write
[18:43] <LaserJock> but that has  *nothing* to do with Ubuntu
[18:43] <nubae> and its because of a debian maintainer decision
[18:43] <isforinsects> Ah, showed up at the right time
[18:43] <LaserJock> we didn't have 0.84 because people dropped the ball
[18:43] <nubae> right, we are bound by a stupid policy
[18:43] <LaserJock> no
[18:43] <Lns> lol
[18:44] <nubae> nah... they couldnt work with debian maintainer
[18:44] <nubae> thats what really happened
[18:44] <LaserJock> I *had* the approvals right there but the people who were doing the work didn't get back to me
[18:44] <LaserJock> the 0.84 packages had a python problem that wasn't fixed
[18:44] <LaserJock> therefor I couldn't approve the upload, that's what happened
[18:44] <nubae> well that too, but in the end even if glucose had worked, the main activities still dont
[18:45] <nubae> what we need to look at, is why its working for other distros
[18:45] <nubae> why is F11 and Mandriva now ahead of us in the edu game?
[18:45] <LaserJock> because people are there working on it
[18:45] <nubae> and opensuse so far ahead its not even fun to mention
[18:45] <bencrisford_> LaserJock: I think we should post meeting details to the ubuntu-devel mailing lists also, so we can get in some fresh developers ?
[18:45] <LaserJock> we don't lack for ideas, or infrastructure
[18:46] <Lns> nubae: we get it, you are an opensuse fanboy..no use repeating yourself, jeez =p
[18:46] <nubae> debian-edu or skolelinux are stuck at ltsp 4.2 due to their massive deployments
[18:46] <LaserJock> we just can't seem to get people to really step up
[18:46] <LaserJock> bencrisford_: yeah, although historically there has been little interest so I don't expect too much
[18:46] <bencrisford_> I'm interested :/
[18:46] <bencrisford_> :P
[18:46] <nubae> Lns: I am being realistic here, I am no fanboy of any distro, I have Fedora and ubuntu installed on my laptop
[18:47] <bencrisford_> im willing to put alot into this project
[18:47] <nubae> I use opensuse-edu on my desktop
[18:47] <Lns> since our own community here is obviously much smaller than others' right now, we need to focus on small goals that make sense for the future. we need a solid base before we build an empire
[18:47] <LaserJock> Lns: agreed
[18:47] <nubae> so when I see people saying hey hello can I help, we need to tell them what they can do, but before that we must have it clear for ourselves what we want this community to be
[18:48] <nubae> is it a distro, a set of packages, some themese?
[18:48] <LaserJock> it is very valuable to look at Fedora and openSUSE and see what they're doing right, but we also need to recognize that we aren't them
[18:48] <nubae> what the hell are we
[18:48] <Lns> we are people who want to see ubuntu and educational applications in schools
[18:48] <Lns> that doesn't mean we need a distro
[18:49] <nubae> so then lets talk about what that means technicaly, since we are all pretty much devs in here
[18:49] <Lns> it doesn't mean we need a huge community right now to "keep up with the jones'"
[18:49] <nubae> well, I believe it does
[18:49] <Lns> i'm not a dev
[18:49] <Lns> i'm a sysadmin :)
[18:49] <highvoltage> LaserJock: going full-distro for karmic might be a bit soon, judging by factors that you and ogra listed
[18:49] <nubae> I think edubuntu should have 2 versions, a lightweight for older machines and a nice chunky one with everything educational in it
[18:49] <Lns> I can barely write bash scripts =p
[18:50] <nubae> we can pick and choose what to put in there based on our experiences of running the software
[18:50] <highvoltage> maybe it should be a target for 10.04, since it will be LTS
[18:50] <nubae> highvoltage: I agree, we should go back to beta mode, and start building from the bottom up
[18:50] <nubae> take a live image and base the edu on that, both remix and normal
[18:51] <highvoltage> nubae: *nod*. I also agree with the lightweight options. bothe xfce and lxde has its merits
[18:52] <Lns> What kinds of relationships do we have with all of the upstream edu app devs?
[18:52] <Lns> How do we interact with them?
[18:52] <highvoltage> Lns: afaik LaserJock has been in regular contact with kde edu people and some of the science projects
[18:52] <nubae> and I've been highly involved with sugar
[18:53] <nubae> so both of those roads lead to new groupings of people
[18:53] <highvoltage> I think we can pull morgs in a bit closer as well
[18:53] <highvoltage> (gtg, bbl)
[18:53] <nubae> At sugar camp, people were all asking, what happned to ubuntu
[18:53] <nubae> what cant I run sugar on it
[18:54] <nubae> It was just sad to have to say, well because of politics and people it never happened
[18:54] <isforinsects> If you would like help with recruitment, I could probably help.
[18:55] <isforinsects> If you care about getting sugar into ubuntu, I can get you XO's
[18:55] <alkisg> I know of a lot of Greek teachers that abandonded edubuntu when it stopped being a distro. Also I've heard of a lot of them asking for an educational distro, and there were even some attempts to make an ubuntu-edu-remix. I think if edubuntu became a distro again, some of them would try to contribute to it.
[18:56] <sbalneav> Back from meeting
[18:56] <isforinsects> <-- is from OLPC
[18:57] <bencrisford1> sorry about that
[18:57] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: Did you see the mail I posted to the list?
[18:58] <isforinsects> The Fedora User Group applied for a large stack of XO's for OLPC/Sugar contributors.  Around 100.
[18:58] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: I'm not sure, what's the name?
[18:58] <bencrisford1> dunno
[18:58] <LaserJock> isforinsects: I saw that, I was pretty amazed that OLPC would ship that many?
[18:58] <bencrisford1> i sent it a few days ago
[18:58] <bencrisford1> basically just said my skills, and that im willing to put alot into edubuntu
[18:58] <LaserJock> isforinsects: certainly some XO's would help pump the PR and community
[18:59] <LaserJock> isforinsects: one of the problems I've seen is making sure people can test stuff out
[18:59] <LaserJock> alkisg: do you know why they abandoned it?
[18:59] <LaserJock> also, I got in touch with the ZaReason people
[19:00] <LaserJock> who build Ubuntu machines (like System76) and they have a choice of having Edubuntu preinstalled
[19:00] <nubae> isforinsects: u weren't at sugarcamp were u?
[19:00] <LaserJock> and I asked them what we could do to help them out and they said having a single installation medium would be very helpful
[19:00] <nubae> why do we need xos though?
[19:00] <isforinsects> You probably saw that the next revision of the OLPC spin of sugar is going to be a full Fedora+Sugar+Gnome
[19:00] <nubae> how is that possibly gonna help?
[19:00] <alkisg> Yes, they don't think an add-on is useful. It's easier to just install the package from synaptic. But they don't even do that, because it gets them those kiddish icons and theme. So they end up selecting manually the edu apps they need.
[19:01] <isforinsects> OLPC isn't stuck on that decision.
[19:01] <nubae> alkisg: is a good example of someone in the field
[19:01] <isforinsects> nubae: no, I was stuck in cambridge
[19:01] <nubae> ah, too bad would have been nice to meet you
[19:01] <isforinsects> I'm adam/CanoeBerry's roommate btw.
[19:01] <nubae> Im the package maintainer for opensuse
[19:02] <isforinsects> Indeed, I've seen you around, hello.
[19:02] <LaserJock> well, mostly the XOs would provide some community-building fodder
[19:02] <nubae> oh... hehe, Adam is a great guy, had some really good conversations with him about szupport infrastructure
[19:02] <LaserJock> and get Sugar out there in Ubuntu
[19:02] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: Is there an edubuntu marketing team?
[19:02] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: no
[19:03]  * bencrisford1 thinks there should be
[19:03] <LaserJock> right now I would say there is no edubuntu anything
[19:03] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: I can cover marketing
[19:03] <bencrisford1> im reasonable experienced
[19:03] <nubae> well, look, I don't mind jumping in to maintain sugar for edubuntu, but it has to be as easy as with opensuse, or else the workload will just be too high
[19:03] <isforinsects> Marketing teams are hard.  Ubuntu's proper has had a really hard time coordinating.
[19:03] <bencrisford1> i know
[19:03] <bencrisford1> im part of it :P
[19:03] <isforinsects> as am I
[19:03] <nubae> edubuntu is going throiugh a period of re- self discovery
[19:03] <isforinsects> a mostly quiet one
[19:03] <bencrisford1> yeah
[19:04] <nubae> we are trying to tie down what makes us edubuntu
[19:04] <nubae> but its very hard
[19:04] <LaserJock> right
[19:04] <bencrisford1> but im happy to help with marketing, thats what im saying :)
[19:04] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: btw, I did see your email
[19:04] <Lns> why can't we simply start out with edubuntu being 'The educational applications available for Ubuntu' ?
[19:04] <bencrisford1> i can code docbook too if we want more documentation
[19:04] <nubae> isforinsects: btw, I would love an xo... I've been waiting one from projectdb for a good 6 months now
[19:04] <nubae> even though they've been approved
[19:05] <nubae> maybe u can nudge someone there to send them ;-)
[19:05] <Lns> IMHO we need to make sure all of these apps are working 100% within Ubuntu before we think about being our own dist
[19:05] <nubae> Also I'll be at linuxtag in Berlin next month
[19:05] <nubae> so I'll be meeting with lots of sugar/opensuse/edubuntu people there too
[19:05] <nubae> Lns: to my knowledge the only thing that doesnt work is proper user management
[19:06] <nubae> which is what sbalneav is going to tackle
[19:06] <Lns> nubae: what's wrong with the already included ubuntu user mgmt tools?
[19:06] <nubae> I sent Laserjock a big set of apps that all work nicely
[19:06] <Lns> why can't we fix those?
[19:06] <nubae> thats what he's doing
[19:06] <Lns> ah
[19:06] <isforinsects> One of the big big big running issues with educational software is integration of existing content, and Open Educational Resources.
[19:06] <nubae> he's taking pessulus, sabayon, the user management, and integrating with ldap etc
[19:07] <Lns> heh..all of those are pretty broken =p
[19:07] <LaserJock> well
[19:07] <LaserJock> there's a lot that doesn't work
[19:07] <isforinsects> What about a content repo? Being able to install/download a local wikipedia (OLPC has a good slice) and/or Librivox audiobooks?
[19:07] <isforinsects> Does edubutunu want to even think about things like that?
[19:07] <LaserJock> yeah
[19:08] <LaserJock> we have in the past
[19:08] <nubae> isforinsects: right.... hopefully for LinuxTag we will have changed that a bit, we now (talking on behalf of opensuse again) are putting together a nicely working moodle instance with all there is out there... basically training material for open source stuff
[19:08] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: how do you think I can contribute to edubuntu based on my email?
[19:08] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: certainly documentation and marketing sounds good
[19:08] <bencrisford1> ok
[19:08] <bencrisford1> what about the website?  because ill help with that if you need me to?
[19:08] <nubae> Lns: rigth they are, which is why he's gonna fix them
[19:09] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: you familiar with Drupal?
[19:09] <nubae> bencrisford1: I believe I can give u rights to it
[19:09] <nubae> but what do u want to do?
[19:09] <LaserJock> hang on, hang on
[19:09] <LaserJock> we need to step back here people
[19:09] <nubae> Most necessary thing is making sure everything is up to date
[19:09] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: not particurlaly but im sure i can pick it up...  after all the website will need lots of news updates during out 'revolution'
[19:09] <nubae> ok ok... maybe I'm running to fast
[19:09]  * nubae steps back
[19:09]  * bencrisford1 leaps back "is it my fault?" :P
[19:09] <LaserJock> we need to get our goals/objectives/strategy set
[19:10] <LaserJock> get people organized around them
[19:10] <LaserJock> then get to work
[19:10] <bencrisford1> lol i agree
[19:10] <nubae> nah, your enthusiasm is what is keeping the project alive
[19:10] <bencrisford1> but i just wanna find my place in the team
[19:10] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: right, we just need to build a team first ;-)
[19:10] <nubae> ok... one thing is, both me and Lns asked to be edubuntu members months ago
[19:10] <nubae> based on the work both of us have done, I think it makes sense to honour that request
[19:11] <LaserJock> sure
[19:11] <nubae> Last thing I heard was it was going to be discussed at an irc meeting, and that was a good 5 months ago
[19:11] <LaserJock> but we have no Edubuntu Council who can approve the requests
[19:11] <bencrisford1> lets take a vote :D
[19:11] <bencrisford1> i vote 'yes!'
[19:11] <nubae> Lns: I'm sure can market and promote to get more peons in
[19:11] <nubae> as can I
[19:11] <bencrisford1> :P
[19:12]  * Lns raises hand
[19:12] <nubae> but unless we feel this is a community, I don't see no magic happening
[19:12] <nubae> isforinsects: what is your role at olpc?
[19:12]  * bencrisford1 is going for a wander
[19:12] <Lns> sbalneav: Just my $0.02 but if you're thinking about tackling user management, this bug might be a good place to start :) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-tools/+bug/259163
[19:13]  * bencrisford1 'll be back soon
[19:13] <isforinsects> nubae: eer, everything to everyone?  Job roles are ill-defined around here.
[19:14] <sbalneav> Lns: Thx
[19:14] <isforinsects> I do advocacy, media relations, volunteer coordination, documentation and occasional coding, patching, packaging etc.
[19:14] <sbalneav> LaserJock: heya
[19:16] <nubae> LaserJock: you shold take a look at the user management interface of other distros, they are really much much better than what we have
[19:17] <LaserJock> ok, so everybody who is willing to package, work on bugs, and maintian software raise your hand
[19:17]  * isforinsects raises hand
[19:17]  * alkisg raises hand but only if edubuntu is going to be a live dvd
[19:18]  * sbalneav raises hand
[19:19] <sbalneav> I can't package, but I can do the other two.
[19:19] <LaserJock> alkisg: how about a live USB stick?
[19:20] <alkisg> LaserJock: no problem, so long as edubuntu focuses on ease of installation, and not just being a set of apps.
[19:20] <LaserJock> nubae: we don't exactly need new user management interfaces, we just need our existing ones to work :-)
[19:20] <nubae> well, for schools its really important
[19:20] <alkisg> E.g. I need a few hours to set up a lab, and I consider myself experienced, I'd like edubuntu to help me with that.
[19:21] <nubae> the sabayon-pesulus-ldap thing sbalneav is working on will be great
[19:21] <nubae> something special
[19:21]  * Lns agrees w/nubae on that
[19:21] <nubae> I too am only interested if edubuntu becomes its own distro again and not just a set of addon packages
[19:22]  * Lns doesn't think demands have their place just yet in forming the community
[19:22] <nubae> well sure they do... I have little free time
[19:22] <nubae> and that free time I want to put in the right place
[19:23] <nubae> I'm sure alkisg feels the same way
[19:23] <alkisg> Lns, if edubuntu is going to be a set of apps, it's totally useless to me...
[19:23] <Lns> nubae: you need to think of the community goals, not just your own perception of what things should be
[19:23] <LaserJock> alkisg: why is it useless?
[19:24] <Lns> Seriously.
[19:24] <alkisg> LaserJock: a metapackage? how helpful can that be?
[19:24] <nubae> well let me spell it out better then, for our community to survive, revive and revitalie, we need a distro
[19:24] <nubae> +1 alkisg
[19:24] <Lns> heh, nubae the dictator =p
[19:25] <nubae> its come down to that now LaserJock, we're (you) maintiaing a meta package
[19:25] <alkisg> I need edubuntu to help me with the serious installation stuff, not just for selecting some apps...
[19:25] <nubae> Lns: its an opinion
[19:25] <Lns> alkisg: what can edubuntu help you with that ubuntu doesn't do for installation?
[19:25] <alkisg> Lns, it can provide me with a menu item to create gpxe boot disks
[19:25] <alkisg> Just a silly example, but a simple teacher may need an afternoon for that.
[19:26] <Lns> alkisg: why can't that be a package for ubuntu?
[19:26] <alkisg> It can help me with ldap
[19:26] <alkisg> Or with ltsp
[19:26] <nubae> this perception of ubuntu being all thats required for a school is something I dont get... if thats the case then just let edubuntu die and lets move on to whatever else
[19:27] <nubae> edubuntu should be a serious educational distribution with goals that are likewise about empowering teachers and students
[19:27] <alkisg> Lns, an experienced administrator doesn't need edubuntu. A teacher needs edubuntu, because he doesn't know all the steps he'll need to make his lab working.
[19:27] <alkisg> E.g. a teacher may want to use scratch and not even know that it exists
[19:28] <nubae> yeah, thats where lessons and lesson plans in moodle or a wiki or something woudl come in handy
[19:28] <nubae> I know u are working on this
[19:28] <nubae> I mean gathering content setting it up
[19:28] <nubae> it would of course be much better if we had a central repo for such material
[19:31] <Lns> I'm not saying ubuntu is everything anyone needs for an edu environment, but it doesn't make sense to me to maintain an entire distro just to support a few install options and packaged apps. A wiki, HOWTO video, anything else would be sufficient. Personally I think k/x/edu/buntu just confuses people
[19:32] <Lns> People KNOW what Ubuntu is much more than edubuntu, or xubuntu, or kubuntu. We need to ride that wave and add edu spice to it
[19:32] <sbalneav> Look, this is so simple.
[19:32] <alkisg> That would be sufficient for an IT administrator, not a teacher. My ubuntu/ltsp guide is now 100 pages, not easy for a teacher
[19:32] <sbalneav> At it's base level, edubuntu is just a meta package.
[19:32] <Lns> alkisg: maybe you should revise it ;)
[19:33] <sbalneav> we distrubute (curreently) the meta package on a standalone disk, with it's dependencies
[19:33] <alkisg> Lns, do you really think that a teacher may install LTSP over ubuntu without a really long guide?
[19:33] <alkisg> I think you overestimate us... :)
[19:33] <sbalneav> the people who want a bootable cd/dvd just need to take the metapackage, combine it with an ubuntu bootable imagem and distrubute that.
[19:34] <nubae> sbalneav: yeah exactly, whats the point of that even, me and laserjock often get into talks where we wonder why anyone bothers downloading the cd
[19:34] <sbalneav> why not let the people who WANT the bootable dvd focus on DOING it, and the people who want to work on the SOFTWARE and the metapackage work on THAT?
[19:35] <nubae> see... I don't buy this... well the ubuntu name is better than edubuntu
[19:35] <Lns> +1 sbalneav , /me stands corrected
[19:35] <nubae> I'll tell u why not because the perception of a community is so strong that if we say we as the community distribute edubuntu our distro, based on ubuntu for education
[19:35] <nubae> its a much stronger statement
[19:35] <sbalneav> alkisg: We've got probably 65% of that when you re-combine the LTSP upstream doco with the edubuntu handbook.
[19:36] <nubae> yep, I thik we all know what needs to happen
[19:36] <alkisg> sbalneav: yes, but it's too big for a teacher. It should be more plug-n-play
[19:36] <nubae> can we make roles and split the work that way?
[19:36] <Lns> alkisg: what about the ltsp installer for ubuntu alternate?
[19:36] <nubae> especially so the new guys practially begging to do something can start?
[19:36] <alkisg> Lns, that's what I use in my  manual
[19:37] <Lns> alkisg: what's so hard with that method?
[19:37] <Lns> that's as plug n play as you can get
[19:37] <alkisg> Lns, getting Greek in the ldm screen?
[19:37] <Lns> that's a different can of worms...
[19:37] <nubae> Lns: surely u understand that a live cd/stick is going to be easier
[19:37] <alkisg> Removing users from the audio group?
[19:37] <alkisg> Changing dhcpd.conf if you only have 1 switch?
[19:37] <alkisg> etc etc
[19:38] <nubae> easy-ltsp script isnt so bad in the end, can be used for those scared of the command line
[19:38] <Lns> alkisg: what about patching the installer then to accommodate that, rather than reinventing the wheel?
[19:38] <alkisg> Question: suppose that me, nubae and 10 others want to start making a bootable edubuntu dvd. Will it be called edubuntu, or is it something outside edubuntu?
[19:38] <nubae> well as far as I know edubuntu is not trademarked
[19:38] <Lns> alkisg: removing users from audio group is basic group mgmt
[19:38] <alkisg> Lns, no, it's a setting in gnome-system-tools
[19:38] <nubae> Lns: a teacher doesnt do that
[19:39] <nubae> I just ave this feeling everyone wants to go in different directions
[19:39] <Lns> if a teacher is installing an LTSP environment, i'd hope they would be up for some basic user mgmt...
[19:40] <Lns> I'm seriously up for whatever. I'm just playing devil's advocate to make our mission a bit more clear :)
[19:40] <nubae> so what does it boil down to? We had a constructive afternoon talking about what we were going to do and how we were going to do it
[19:40] <sbalneav> I think if you want to make this simple, that is, simple for US to develop, and for end users to maintain, you have to take skolelinux's viewpoint...
[19:40] <nubae> whats the next step
[19:40] <sbalneav> you do things OUR way.
[19:41] <nubae> well, hang on a sec... skolelinux is a much bigger community
[19:41] <sbalneav> if you're going to set up an edubuntu lab, the thin clients MUST be on a singel switch of their own
[19:41]  * LaserJock was eating lunch, finishing backscroll
[19:41] <nubae> and in some wayss they can't upgrade easily due to that
[19:41] <nubae> we are small lean, and can be a bit more progressive
[19:41] <sbalneav> you MUST use our ldap, with no AD integration, etc etc etc.
[19:41] <alkisg> sbalneav: why "MUST" ?
[19:41] <nubae> there aren't that many edubuntu installs, I'm sure
[19:41] <alkisg> E.g. I know teachers that use their laptops as servers, because they're on that school only for 2 days per week
[19:42] <Lns> Ease of install vs. flexibility...ah, the age old balance
[19:42] <sbalneav> alkisg: because otherwise, we devolve into having to solve every single possible edge case that edubuntu might go into
[19:42] <alkisg> They can't change the cabling
[19:42] <sbalneav> why can't they?
[19:42] <alkisg> Because they're guest teachers
[19:42] <sbalneav> skolelinux requires that they use 10.0.0.x
[19:42] <sbalneav> with no other dhcp servers on that subnet
[19:42] <Lns> alkisg: guest teachers setting up a lab?
[19:43] <sbalneav> if you want to do it differently, then your on your own.  you can use skolelinux as a base, but our SUPPORTED situation is X
[19:43] <alkisg> Lns, sure, with my manual they can just plug their laptops as ltsp-servers and start their lesson :)
[19:43] <nubae> sbalneav: I'm with u on that... thats what opensuse does right now
[19:43] <LaserJock> if I may, I think it'd be helpful if we stay away from LTSP implementation stuff
[19:44] <nubae> basically they have a methodology that is different from other distros, but it all works
[19:44] <alkisg> sbalneav: Well, and dnsmasq just supported proxydhcp, which can be used in any setting, with an existing dhcp server, with dynamic ip etc. Why should we limit it to 10.0.0.x ?
[19:44] <LaserJock> partly because it's just too complicated for what we're trying to accomplish here
[19:44] <nubae> LaserJock: see, I disagree there... LTSP is the core for me
[19:44] <LaserJock> why?
[19:44] <nubae> I woudl never ever consider setting up a school without it
[19:44] <LaserJock> LTSP != education
[19:44] <LaserJock> school != education
[19:44] <nubae> I might consider giving children sticks also, to take home
[19:45] <nubae> but in the classroom, thin terminal it must be... its just not mangable otherwise
[19:45] <LaserJock> there are a lot of netbooks and 1to1 type stuff going on
[19:45] <LaserJock> LTSP is very powerful and a common use case
[19:45] <nubae> yep... and we'll find solutions for that
[19:45] <LaserJock> but i think it's a *big* mistake to center everything around the LTSP use case
[19:45] <nubae> well, certainly not everything
[19:45] <nubae> but it fits hand in hand
[19:45] <LaserJock> sorta
[19:46] <nubae> I mean, llike alkisg already said, you wouldnt install edubuntu addons without an LTSP server already there
[19:46] <LaserJock> the discussion so far around "why do we need installation media" was "to make LTSP easier"
[19:46] <LaserJock> lots of people use edubuntu addon without LTSP
[19:47] <nubae> well opensuse has it in their livedvd and it works out of the box, bascially it doesnt get easier
[19:47] <bencrisford1> back
[19:47] <Lns> yeah, I see tons of ppl in the list installing edubuntu at home on a single pc
[19:47] <alkisg> LaserJock: I agree. edubuntu should contain both LTSP and non-LTSP versions, both LDAP and non-LDAP installations, both fat clients and non-fat clients... that's why it needs to be a distro, to take care of all this installation stuff
[19:47] <LaserJock> again, I think we need to back out and look at what our real goals and objectives are
[19:47] <sbalneav> and now we're back to the age old problem
[19:47] <nubae> alkisg: well put
[19:47] <LaserJock> alkisg: but we *can't* take care of that
[19:47] <alkisg> Why not?
[19:47] <LaserJock> who's gonna do it!!!
[19:47] <sbalneav> WHO'S GOING TO DO ALL OF THIS FANCY HIGH FALUTIN STUFF?!?!!!?!?!?!!?!
[19:48] <alkisg> People are already doing it
[19:48] <alkisg> They're just not calling it edubuntu anymore
[19:48] <LaserJock> we barely got away with 1 LTSP setup
[19:48] <nubae> LaserJock: if we're gonna be stuck in limbo, and we're not going to make decisions, what's the point here?
[19:48] <nubae> what are we discussing?
[19:48] <alkisg> I've seen maybe 5 different greek ubuntu/edu remixes this year, because edubuntu is now an add-on cd which nobody here uses
[19:48] <LaserJock> what are our goals
[19:48] <LaserJock> what are our target audiences
[19:48] <LaserJock> what technologies can we use to deliver
[19:49] <LaserJock> how can we build a community to implement it all
[19:49] <LaserJock> "be a distro" is an implementation detail, not a goal
[19:49] <Lns> Edu-Buntu....Education...Ubuntu...
[19:49] <LaserJock> ok, that's a start
[19:49] <alkisg> LaserJock: if we start with "edubuntu is a distro", people can put their brick in the edubuntu-house. Not everything has to happen with the "first release"
[19:50] <LaserJock> alkisg: but what will it be a distro of?
[19:50] <alkisg> Ubuntu focused on education
[19:50] <alkisg> E.g. nubae may put an option to install sugar or not.
[19:50] <LaserJock> ok, but again
[19:50] <Lns> sbalneav got it right: why not let the people who WANT the bootable dvd focus on DOING it, and the people who want to work on the SOFTWARE and the metapackage work on THAT?
[19:50] <LaserJock> we can't exactly do that right now
[19:51] <alkisg> Lns, sure, some of us are going to do that in any case, but it would be nice to cooperate
[19:51] <Lns> A community has many different people who all specialize in accomplishing different goals
[19:51] <LaserJock> maintaining a distro is very very difficult
[19:51] <LaserJock> and frankly nobody in this community is currently up to the skill level needed
[19:51] <alkisg> E.g. this summer I'm either going to make a greek ubuntu/ltsp/edu remix, or help in edubuntu-live-dvd
[19:51] <alkisg> ...if it comes to be
[19:52] <LaserJock> I don't think anybody will deny that we'd like to have a live media
[19:52] <LaserJock> or that a full distro is desirable over an addon
[19:52] <Lns> Here's my personal specialty: I deploy Ubuntu and LTSP on top of it in schools. I hear what works, what doesn't, and report upstream in bug reports. I customize environments.
[19:52] <LaserJock> we didn't create the addon because we thought it'd be better than a full distro
[19:52] <LaserJock> we did it because we couldn't really make the distro thing work anymore
[19:53] <isforinsects> I think that looking at end goals would help this conversation
[19:53] <LaserJock> but again, the choice of using DVDs/CDs/USB images/metapackages are really an implementation detail
[19:53] <isforinsects> Why is Ubuntu important to this group?
[19:54] <alkisg> that's also an implementation detail :)
[19:54] <isforinsects> I like ubuntu because it has a wide install base, and has a lot of documentation available for a wide array of types of users
[19:54] <Lns> isforinsects: Ubuntu is important to me because LTSP is nicely integrated and works easily. It has a nice, clean, streamlined interface.
[19:54] <isforinsects> Ok, so is Ubuntu a sub feature of the Education goal?
[19:55] <LaserJock> hmm, how do you mean?
[19:55] <isforinsects> we/you also need to define Education
[19:55] <isforinsects> that one is a lot harder
[19:55] <isforinsects> We seem to mean different things
[19:56] <LaserJock> ok, did everybody read my strategy doc: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument
[19:56] <nubae> yeah
[19:56] <LaserJock> at least parts 1-3
[19:56] <bencrisford1> yep
[19:56] <sbalneav> nubae: wb
[19:56]  * isforinsects reads
[19:56] <LaserJock> is there anything wrong with it?
[19:56] <nubae> yeah stupid internet connection :-)
[19:57] <nubae> (20:53:06) Nubae: eo
[19:57] <nubae> (20:53:36) Nubae: que tal estas alli en casita brasilena?
[19:57] <nubae> (20:54:02) Nubae: me gustaria comprar un vuelo para ira visitar te :-( te hecho mucho demenos
[19:57] <nubae> oops
[19:57] <nubae> heh
[19:57] <nubae> (20:48:31) Nubae: Well I for one want to work on stateless connections
[19:57] <nubae> (20:48:45) Nubae: ie... when a user is connected to a ltsp server, and disconnects his  netbook
[19:57] <nubae> (20:49:22) Nubae: he immediately works locally, when he logs back on the server and his laptop synch and they continue working
[19:57] <nubae> (20:49:42) Nubae: part of this has been solved already using xrdp
[19:57] <nubae> (20:50:23) Nubae: the last part is a cache of some sort locally and on the server so they can synch up
[19:57] <nubae> (20:50:58) Nubae: And I'd also like to see the latest version of sugar in edubuntu, and a better user management interface, groupings, lockdowns, etc
[19:57] <dogi> griasdenk
[19:57] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: want me to sort marketing?  because if we are gonna have our 'revolution' we need a following - and therefore publicity
[19:58] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: well, I think that will come
[19:58] <LaserJock> right now we're trying to figure out what we're gonna market :-)
[19:58] <isforinsects> hola dogi
[19:58] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: but yes, some good marketing/publicity will be quite important and the  help will be very appreciated
[19:59] <LaserJock> the problem that we've constantly seen, and sbalneav likes to point out, is that we've got no lack for ideas
[19:59] <LaserJock> what we lack is hand implementing
[19:59] <LaserJock> we've gone down the revolution road a few times
[19:59] <isforinsects> I see two goals in the opening of the strategy doc
[20:00] <Lns> I need to go..i'll backscroll when I get back :)
[20:00] <isforinsects> Edu-Applications in Ubuntu, presentation/integration of applications in edubuntu
[20:00] <LaserJock> right
[20:01] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: Shall I make a lp edubuntu-marketing team?  I know its jumping the gun a bit, but it'll let people know we are reforming
[20:01]  * dogi likes the idea of  sugar in edubuntu, too :) ... := subuntu = sugar + edubuntu
[20:01] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: it's jumping the gun too much. we've had lots of problems with having too many LP teams already
[20:02]  * sbalneav pounds head on desk
[20:02] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: let's get things organized first
[20:02] <bencrisford1> ok sure
[20:02] <isforinsects> dogi, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument#Focus%203:%20Sugar
[20:02] <bencrisford1> brb
[20:02] <LaserJock> so even though the strategy doc is not finished
[20:02] <LaserJock> I think it pretty much has the goals and objectives that the Edubuntu community is after
[20:04] <isforinsects> What are some things that Edubuntu is *not*?
[20:04] <LaserJock> wow, good question
[20:05] <LaserJock> it's not a completely separate project from Ubuntu
[20:05] <isforinsects> Ok, that works
[20:06] <LaserJock> it's not really about making new educational software
[20:06] <isforinsects> Oh hi reubencaron_
[20:06] <isforinsects> Good
[20:06] <isforinsects> that's a big one
[20:06] <LaserJock> I don't think it's supposed to be one-size-fits-all
[20:06] <reubencaron_> isforinsects: hi, just lurking
[20:06] <LaserJock> i.e. it should be flexible enough for a range of uses
[20:07] <isforinsects> Example: I am interested in convincing people that educational content in ubuntu repo's is a good idea.
[20:07] <LaserJock> and it's not closed source/non-free/Microsoft/Apple :-)
[20:08] <isforinsects> Right, LaserJock it needs to be a wide open playing field for contributors.  But under the auspicies of edubuntu, you need to limit the focus *somehow*.
[20:08] <LaserJock> right
[20:08] <LaserJock> and *that's* what I wanted to discuss
[20:08] <LaserJock> because I feel like Edubuntu is too big for the size of community we're going to start out with
[20:08] <isforinsects> Let me frame where I'm coming from as well.  I'm from OLPC (as I mentioned), I think that OLPC/SugarLabs has a valid interest, but Education, technology and Open Content are what I am about in general.
[20:08] <LaserJock> that's why I sort of jettison a lot of emphasis on LTSP
[20:09] <LaserJock> LTSP works, and is a big part of the landscape, but I don't know that Edubuntu has the resources to focus too much on LTSP specifically
[20:09] <isforinsects> I'm not reall a part of this community *yet*, so I don't want to try to direct what Edubuntu is, but I would like to help this conversation.
[20:10] <isforinsects> ok, so what else is edubuntu *not*?
[20:10] <isforinsects> or what else *is* edubuntu in a very very broad sense
[20:11] <isforinsects> So edubuntu can't spend a lot of resources on the thin client lab model.  Ok.
[20:11] <LaserJock> well
[20:11] <isforinsects> Is edubuntu about documentation outside of the repo's?
[20:11] <isforinsects> I'm not saying that edubuntu is *not* LTSP.
[20:12] <LaserJock> I think Edubuntu can spend time making sure that LTSP works correctly
[20:12] <isforinsects> is edubuntu testing and feedback from users/teachers/testers?
[20:12] <LaserJock> yes to those
[20:12] <LaserJock> docs and testing/feedback are huge
[20:13] <LaserJock> because even if we can't fix the problems we can at least help direct to somebody who can
[20:13] <LaserJock> i.e. KDE devs have come to us asking for feedback from teachers on how KDE could be made better for them
[20:13] <sbalneav> Well, and that's where I have traditionally come in.
[20:14] <LaserJock> what I *want* to say is that Edubuntu is everything Education in the Ubuntu project
[20:15] <LaserJock> but I think realistically that's not feasible for the time-being
[20:15] <isforinsects> That's good marketing, that's not a good plan.
[20:15] <LaserJock> exactly
[20:15] <isforinsects> Education would cover teaching people about Ubuntu, which is kinda covered in part by Canonical's marketing and partially by the doc teams
[20:16] <LaserJock> ah yes, there is that confusion
[20:16] <isforinsects> sbalneav: how does interaction with testing groups and teachers work with edubuntu?
[20:16] <LaserJock> I talked a little bit with Belinda from Canonical about that
[20:16] <LaserJock> there's a difference between education *about* Ubuntu and education *using* Ubuntu
[20:17] <isforinsects> Does anyone know Joe Feinstein at Canonical? he may be joe6 or something like that?
[20:17] <LaserJock> not me
[20:18] <LaserJock> a significant issue, from my perspective, is that we've traditionally out-marketed our technical ability
[20:19] <LaserJock> I've seen lots of initiatives and community-building things happen
[20:19] <isforinsects> It's always helpful to file lots of bugs, if even to use to recruit new talent.
[20:19] <LaserJock> but very little actually ends up making a technical difference
[20:19] <LaserJock> well
[20:19] <LaserJock> it does
[20:19] <isforinsects> Right, in a way.
[20:20] <LaserJock> but we also need people to work on the bugs
[20:20] <LaserJock> throughout Edubuntu's history the number of actual developers has never been more than 2
[20:20] <isforinsects> ooooouch
[20:20] <isforinsects> not including packagers?
[20:21] <isforinsects> what about projects like GASP?
[20:21] <LaserJock> that's the number of people who could upload
[20:21] <isforinsects> Is that an administration bottleneck?
[20:21] <LaserJock> i.e. were in MOTU or Ubuntu Core Dev
[20:21] <isforinsects> Oh, gotcha
[20:21] <LaserJock> no, mostly interest and getting current devs some time to develop more devs
[20:22] <LaserJock> for total "people who contribute to technical stuff" we've probably never had more than 5
[20:22] <LaserJock> we've had a number of doc people and marketing/advocacy/support types but that's kinda dwindled
[20:23] <LaserJock> but all the marketing and documentation in the world won't help you if you're software is crap
[20:23] <LaserJock> ogra was really the only one that ever got things in real good shape
[20:24] <LaserJock> and some of that was because he was full time
[20:24] <sbalneav> Which is the reason why I've always been of the opinion that we ought to fix what we already have, as opposed to simply widening the scope.
[20:24] <LaserJock> right
[20:24] <LaserJock> I personally wouldn't mind if we picked a specific target and went with that for a release
[20:24] <LaserJock> then widened slowly from there
[20:24] <sbalneav> right, and alot of the work that was done early on was with the early crowd (ogra, myself, jammcq, etc) working on LTSP5
[20:25] <LaserJock> yeah
[20:25] <LaserJock> you guys picked something (LTSP5) and did it very well
[20:25] <LaserJock> and Edubuntu took off
[20:25] <sbalneav> exactly
[20:26] <LaserJock> for the last year or so Edubuntu has done everything ... poorly
[20:26] <pygi> hi LaserJock, sbalneav
[20:26] <pygi> nice to see you folks :)
[20:26] <sbalneav> Is this the point where I take a sip from the wrong chalice and I turn into a skeleton and get blown away?
[20:27] <LaserJock> lol
[20:27] <sbalneav> hello pygi
[20:27] <LaserJock> hi Mario
[20:27] <LaserJock> I don't think LTSP is a good choice for the "thing we do well"
[20:28] <sbalneav> Now, here's what I'd suggest.
[20:28] <pygi> iscsi burning then? :p
[20:28] <LaserJock> partly because upstream is now pretty solid, and I don't think we need to revolutionize things again
[20:28] <sbalneav> 1) nubae and alkisg really REALLY want a live CD/DVD
[20:28] <sbalneav> ok, it's theirs.
[20:29] <sbalneav> 2) I really REALLY want to get sabayon fixed, and make g-s-t work with ldap
[20:29] <sbalneav> OK, I and anyone else can work on that
[20:29] <sbalneav> 3) LaserJock wants Edu apps, and the metapackage solid
[20:30] <sbalneav> Why don't we, say, take 2 months, keep in contact, and see where we get with each of our little projects in that time?
[20:31] <sbalneav> we meet weekly, and status report things to death, and we can cross discuss anything that needs discussing
[20:32] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Maybe excempting you, since you've got a dissertation to finish
[20:33] <LaserJock> how about this
[20:33] <LaserJock> we should use the RoadMap or TODO wiki page
[20:33] <LaserJock> everybody puts on it what they're willing to work on for Karmic
[20:34] <LaserJock> then we do as sbalneav said with reporting
[20:34] <LaserJock> we could use blueprints but that might be a bit overkill
[20:35] <LaserJock> I would also like to have a wishlist with items that *should* get done but nobody has yet picked up
[20:36] <sbalneav> I'm fine with that.
[20:36] <LaserJock> ... so for the meeting Friday people should have a list ready of what they're willing to work on
[20:36] <LaserJock> docs, marketing, package, bug fixing, etc.
[20:36] <sbalneav> ok
[20:37] <LaserJock> *anything* people want to contribute is welcome
[20:37] <pygi> sbalneav: can't we have a BOF or something at UDS?
[20:37] <alkisg> LaserJock: so it's ok if me, nubae and some others start with an edubuntu live dvd?
[20:37] <alkisg> Won't there be redistribution problems? name, hosting etc?
[20:37] <LaserJock> well, yeah
[20:37] <LaserJock> you guys will need to figure out how to do that
[20:37] <LaserJock> or get help or whatever
[20:38] <LaserJock> but basically the idea would be to say "if you can get it done, go for it"
[20:39] <alkisg> Well, before investing a few months we should first make sure that someone will host the edubuntu dvd
[20:39] <alkisg> I don't know who to contact for this.
[20:40] <LaserJock> well, cjwatson and slangasek would be good people to talk with
[20:40] <LaserJock> frankly I don't think the chances are very good
[20:41] <LaserJock> Edubuntu got dropped for Jaunty from the normal mirrors
[20:41] <LaserJock> in favor of Ubuntu Netbook Remix
[20:41] <LaserJock> so it's now just on cdimage.ubuntu.com
[20:41] <alkisg> OK, but that's where we should start. If we don't get hosting, there's no point in even starting it.
[20:41] <LaserJock> if there wasn't room for the CD .iso I'm not sure there will be for a DVD
[20:41] <LaserJock> however
[20:41] <LaserJock> there is the Ubuntu DVD
[20:42] <nubae> LaserJock: we can use the suse studio service
[20:42] <alkisg> And I don't know if canonical will let us keep the "edubuntu" name if we host it in sourceforge or wherever.
[20:42] <nubae> but not sure if they allow foreign builds
[20:42] <nubae> I'll have to check
[20:42] <LaserJock> I really would suggest not hosting .isos from outside Ubuntu
[20:42] <nubae> but yes it would be interesting to have at least edubuntu on a stick with a set of apps we all agree on
[20:42] <LaserJock> we can talk with Canonical about hosting
[20:42] <nubae> ok... what about the set of apps I sent you
[20:42] <LaserJock> and talk to Xubuntu perhaps
[20:43] <nubae> what do u think about packaging those as -extras?
[20:43] <LaserJock> right
[20:43] <LaserJock> I think that's perhaps doable
[20:43] <alkisg> LaserJock: you say "(1) ubuntu won't host it, (2) don't host it elsewhere, and (3) do it if you can". Those are incompatible...
[20:43] <LaserJock> I'm not saying Ubuntu won't host it
[20:43] <LaserJock> I'm just saying that it's not a trivial thing to just add a DVD
[20:43] <nubae> I think he refered to foreign isos
[20:44] <LaserJock> I would strongly suggest looking to see if the Ubuntu DVD can be used for your purposes
[20:44] <alkisg> No, it doesn't even have language support
[20:44] <nubae> so does that mean that a decisions been made to continue with the status quo?
[20:44] <LaserJock> since Edubuntu is at least 90% Ubuntu it would make less sense to duplicate all that
[20:44] <LaserJock> nubae: at this point I don't think there is any status quo
[20:45] <nubae> you're still thinking from a technical perspective
[20:45] <nubae> and not marketing/comercial perspective
[20:45] <LaserJock> right
[20:45] <nubae> it doesnt matter that its 90% the same
[20:45] <LaserJock> oh it does
[20:45] <nubae> the changes required are interesting themes
[20:45] <LaserJock> right
[20:45] <nubae> colour adaptations
[20:45] <nubae> fonts/icons
[20:45] <nubae> something to make it its own
[20:46] <LaserJock> but convincing Ubuntu mirrors to duplicat 3+GB for each arch/release/ etc. is a *big* problem
[20:46] <nubae> really brand it as an edu thing
[20:46] <LaserJock> what I'm trying to say is I think getting your own Edubuntu branded DVD is highly unlikely
[20:46] <LaserJock> but modifying the Ubuntu DVD to suit your goals may be possible
[20:46] <nubae> what is stopping us?
[20:46] <alkisg> LaserJock: if we get a lot of bandwidth, that means we're successful.
[20:46] <nubae> aye
[20:47] <LaserJock> look, I'll be blunt
[20:47] <LaserJock> if you host the .iso elsewhere it won't be Edubuntu
[20:47] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is part of Ubuntu and uses Ubuntu's infrastructure
[20:47] <LaserJock> we *can* talk with other derivatives to see what they're doing
[20:48] <LaserJock> and how they're mitigating issues
[20:48] <LaserJock> but "well, let's just host it on sourceforge" is a bad idea
[20:48] <LaserJock> a successful USB image would probably work out
[20:49] <LaserJock> but a DVD is a *major* commitment for hosts/mirrors
[20:49] <LaserJock> Kubuntu doesn't even have its own DVD
[20:49] <nubae> LaserJock: for me its about making a decision whether to continue on this plaform, or move over to something else where I'm given the liberty to make a difference
[20:49] <alkisg> Why is a DVD different than a USB with concern to hosting?
[20:49] <LaserJock> alkisg: a DVD is generally 4.2 GB a USB image is generall 1-2GB
[20:50] <LaserJock> nubae: you *can* make a difference
[20:50] <nubae> in doesnt have to be
[20:50] <LaserJock> I sent out tons of emails about how people can contribute and make things better
[20:50] <nubae> the opensuse-edu dvd is 2.2 gigs
[20:50] <alkisg> I don't think we're going to decide what to put in based on the available size
[20:50] <nubae> not 2
[20:50] <LaserJock> *nobody* stepped up
[20:50] <nubae> sorry not 4
[20:50] <nubae> stepped up to what? we're sitting here, discussing this now and I've asked many times about what to do
[20:51] <nubae> I'm not even considered an edubuntu member
[20:51] <LaserJock> and I've said over and over, we *have* to get the apps well maintained
[20:51] <nubae> so step up to what?
[20:51] <LaserJock> we *have* to get metapackages in shape
[20:51] <alkisg> LaserJock: not everyone is interested in maintaining apps
[20:51] <LaserJock> we *have* to get documentation and the website updated
[20:51] <LaserJock> we *have* to get development release testing and bug fixing going
[20:52] <LaserJock> what media we end up using to deliver the product is secondary to *having* a product
[20:52] <nubae> well, for me it just sounds like we're going to be staying in the status quo... setting up a metapackage with the apps I proposed wouldn't take long I guess
[20:52] <nubae> right, which is why I've made very specific ideas on what to do
[20:52] <LaserJock> I don't think we're staying in the status quo
[20:52] <LaserJock> I'm saying I think we need to start with where we're at right now
[20:52] <nubae> package ltsp together with edubuntu
[20:53] <nubae> and sugar
[20:53] <nubae> make fat client images available for various scenarios
[20:53] <LaserJock> right now it's not feasible to just jump into an Edubuntu branded Live DVD
[20:53] <LaserJock> perhaps we can get there
[20:53]  * isforinsects scrolls back
[20:53] <LaserJock> but I'm trying to get at what can be done for Karmic
[20:53] <nubae> welll, then what are we gonna do, for karmic again, just modify the metapackage a bit?
[20:54] <LaserJock> ubuntu-edu-* should need only minor tweaks
[20:54] <LaserJock> we need MIRs for any more apps we want in them
[20:54] <LaserJock> ubuntu-edu-*-extras needs to be created and populated
[20:54] <LaserJock> the apps need to get maintained
[20:54] <LaserJock> gcompris is in bad shape
[20:55] <LaserJock> moodle is in bad shape
[20:55] <LaserJock> sabayon is toast
[20:55] <nubae> I actually met the gcompris guy over the weekend
[20:55] <alkisg> LaserJock: we don't have resources to make a remix, but we do have the resources to fix bugs?
[20:55] <nubae> he's been very heavily optimising his package for Sugar
[20:56] <nubae> but he also didn't see much future for edubuntu in its current state
[20:56] <LaserJock> alkisg: what's the point of making a remix if the apps that it's made up of are crap?
[20:56] <alkisg> I don't think edubuntu is about fixing bugs.
[20:56] <LaserJock> nubae: I know
[20:56] <alkisg> That's upstream
[20:56] <LaserJock> no
[20:56] <nubae> who says they are crap?
[20:56] <LaserJock> you
[20:56] <LaserJock> Sugar is messed up
[20:56] <LaserJock> gcompris, moodle, sabayon, etc. again
[20:56] <nubae> yeah and sugar wont get into edubuntu
[20:57] <LaserJock> why not?
[20:57] <nubae> because of politics
[20:57] <LaserJock> bah
[20:57] <LaserJock> that's not true at all
[20:57] <LaserJock> we *can* do it
[20:57] <nubae> the debian maintainer wants to stay at 0.82
[20:57] <LaserJock> that's fine
[20:57] <nubae> yes it is true, unless we fork, its staying at a shitty release
[20:57] <LaserJock> we don't have to hold to Debian
[20:57] <LaserJock> I've said it a million times
[20:57] <nubae> well I have no interest in 0.82
[20:57] <LaserJock> *if* people step up there is no reason why we can't do it
[20:57] <LaserJock> 0.84 was *there* but nobody stepped up to finish it
[20:58] <LaserJock> there was just a couple python bugs
[20:58] <isforinsects> also the Sugar devs are really stepping up on packageability, trying to make it not so integrated with the very very custom fedora for OLPC
[20:59] <sbalneav> Just out of curiousity, who would STOP sugar from getting into edubuntu if there would be working packages?
[20:59] <LaserJock> there are currently 271 open bugs
[20:59] <nubae> actually, this is something I know quite a lot about, in sugar we have created a mechanism whereby from git to packaging is automated via the opensuse build service
[20:59] <LaserJock> we need to knock that down to < 50 bugs, IMO
[21:00] <nubae> we decided to go this way (upstream) so that maintenance and packaging would be totally automatic... it will be up to the maintainers of various distros if they want reinvent the wheel
[21:00] <bencrisford1> 271 open bugs in..?  i only just got back?
[21:00] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: in Edubuntu packages
[21:00] <nubae> oBS can spit out to any distro and any architecture, so it just makes sense for us
[21:01] <LaserJock> right
[21:01] <LaserJock> but that doesn't help Edubuntu
[21:01] <LaserJock> well, it does
[21:01] <nubae> also, oBS is gpl, so if we wanted we could even create our own cloud for using it
[21:01] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: If we all start working on them we can make a dent?
[21:01] <LaserJock> but we need to get those packages into Edubuntu
[21:01] <nubae> it should help edubuntu since we can put in those packages from that external repo
[21:01] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: sure
[21:01] <nubae> right
[21:03] <LaserJock> creating and maintaining a live DVD for Edubuntu is going to be way harder than getting packages fixed up
[21:03] <LaserJock> you guys are welcome to work on that
[21:03] <bencrisford1> whats the name of the lp package for edubuntu?
[21:03] <LaserJock> there isn't any one package
[21:04] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs will give you the list
[21:04] <bencrisford1> oh
[21:04] <bencrisford1> ah ok
[21:04] <LaserJock> I just think it would be helpful is some people stepped up to work on the packages
[21:04] <LaserJock> since that is the core of what we're doing
[21:04]  * highvoltage returns from IRL meeting
[21:06] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: I'll spend some time on bug fixing
[21:06] <bencrisford1> tommorrow
[21:06] <bencrisford1> and whenever I get the chance
[21:06] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: feel free to join the ~edubuntu-bugs team
[21:06] <nubae> If I knew we were working towards our own release, I'd start packaging sugar for edubuntu
[21:07] <nubae> but I dont want to do work that will later be disregarded
[21:07] <LaserJock> ?
[21:07] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: is that for triaging or fixing?
[21:07] <LaserJock> nubae: why would it be disregarded?
[21:07] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: whatever you like :-)
[21:08]  * bencrisford1 is a packaging noob
[21:08] <bencrisford1> do i just assign it to me?
[21:08] <bencrisford1> then do the packaging mumbo jumbo
[21:08] <bencrisford1> then upload it as a patch?
[21:09] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: well, you can talk with #ubuntu-bugs on triaging or #ubuntu-motu for packaging
[21:09] <bencrisford1> to the bug report
[21:09] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: ?
[21:09] <LaserJock> but most of our stuff is really following up on bugs
[21:09] <LaserJock> if you're working on a bug report go ahead and assign it to yourself
[21:10] <bencrisford1> i am
[21:10] <bencrisford1> ill be back in an hour
[21:13] <Ahmuck> want a free testing lab?
[21:13] <Ahmuck> with usability testing cameras?
[21:13] <LaserJock> I think we might
[21:15] <Ahmuck> how can you market something that isn't there?
[21:16]  * Ahmuck is backreading
[21:17] <alkisg> So nubae, do you want to send an mail to cjwatson about if we can host an edubuntu dvd? (you are more known than me, you'll be taken more seriously). He'll turn us down of course, but at least we'll say that we tried...
[21:19] <LaserJock> we could discuss exactly what would like to be tried on the mailing list or something
[21:20] <LaserJock> figuring out the justifications for it all
[21:20] <alkisg> LaserJock: I'm with nubae on this, i.e. start with something like opensuse dvd
[21:20] <LaserJock> and maybe then email Mark and Steve Langasek
[21:20] <alkisg> I've only seen it for half an hour, but it convinced me
[21:20] <alkisg> That's a more exact description of what we want to do than hours of talking/emailing
[21:21] <LaserJock> ok, but I think the justification is about why you can't do it with the Ubuntu DVD
[21:21] <LaserJock> since it already has a live environment
[21:21] <alkisg> It isn't a live dvd
[21:21] <LaserJock> and all the Edubuntu apps
[21:22] <alkisg> I doesn't have ltsp preinstalled
[21:22] <LaserJock> no, but we wouldn't really want LTSP live
[21:22] <alkisg> Why not? That's part of our plan...
[21:22] <LaserJock> but the DVD has all the stuff on it already
[21:22] <LaserJock> so it's more about presentation
[21:23] <LaserJock> well, I suppose you could try. I've always been told that LTSP on a live environment is not a good idea
[21:23] <alkisg> Well, I've seen it live, and it's fine.
[21:23] <sbalneav> Who's got a live ltsp cd?
[21:23] <alkisg> opensuse
[21:24] <alkisg> kiwi-ltsp, but still...
[21:24] <sbalneav> So they package a chroot as a binary blob on the cd?
[21:24] <alkisg> nubae, ^^^
[21:24] <alkisg> I've only seen it for half an hour, didn't see if it used nfs or nbd
[21:26] <sbalneav> Criminy, I'm looking through gnome-system-tools at the user portion, I can't even see where the heck it adds the user.
[21:28] <sbalneav> ah, system-tools-backends
[21:28] <LaserJock> yeah, good luck with that
[21:32] <sbalneav> Perl happy stuff
[21:33] <LaserJock> yeah, I don't know Perl at all
[21:33] <Ahmuck> edubuntu should focus less on apps and more on how the system works and apps install, etc.
[21:33] <LaserJock> and I don't plan on learning any time soon
[21:33] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: really?
[21:34] <LaserJock> I mean, I know there's a lot with integration and how to get the stuff installed
[21:34] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: some would say that focussing on upstream educational applications is the most important thing edubuntu should focus on
[21:34] <LaserJock> but it's really not *that* hard to install stuff
[21:34] <alkisg> g-s-t has a perl backend for a C front-end? Yikes...
[21:34] <LaserJock> but it's pretty important that once you install it that it works I'd thing
[21:34] <LaserJock> *think
[21:36] <alkisg> So do you think if all bugs are fixed, people will use the edubuntu add-on cd?
[21:36] <alkisg> I still think they'll use synaptic and install the apps they want...
[21:36] <LaserJock> sure
[21:36] <LaserJock> but that's fine
[21:37] <sbalneav> I know some perl.
[21:37] <sbalneav> On a more practical front.
[21:37] <LaserJock> I honestly don't care all that much *how* people get the Edubuntu apps
[21:37] <LaserJock> I just want to make sure that they are easy to get and that they *do* work right when they are installed
[21:38] <sbalneav> LaserJock: How's your time, with the disertation these days?  Would you be willing to hold a packaging tutorial again? For those of us in here?
[21:38] <LaserJock> hmm
[21:38] <LaserJock> I think perhaps a better idea would be to get hooked up with the MOTU stuff
[21:39] <LaserJock> I think they've been doing some Packaging 101 stuff
[21:39] <LaserJock> it'd be better for my time constraints and you'd learn the latest in packaging as opposed to my ancient techniques ;-)
[21:40] <alkisg> pbuilder works wonders in packaging
[21:40] <sbalneav> So, hang out in #ubuntu-motu?
[21:40] <sbalneav> I have never got packaging.  Partially because I'm stupid, and partially because... ok, I'll be honest.  It's totally because I'm stupid.
[21:41] <LaserJock> ask #ubuntu-motu when the next packaging tutorial session will be
[21:41] <alkisg> sbalneav: I had a friend doing my first packaging from me, but after that it all became clear... you should do the same :)
[21:41] <sbalneav> I've tried before, tried and failed.
[21:42] <sbalneav> I recognize the problem is totally in my seized up neural synapses
[21:42]  * cbx33 peeks in
[21:42] <sbalneav> hey hey cbx33
[21:42] <cbx33> hey sbalneav
[21:42] <LaserJock> holy cow
[21:42] <alkisg> sbalneav: do you have something specific to package, or you're just looking for general knowledge?
[21:42] <bencrisford1> hi cbx33
[21:42] <LaserJock> we had pygi in here earlier, it's like old school in here
[21:42] <sbalneav> OK, well, for instance.
[21:43] <pygi> LaserJock: what I did this time? :d
[21:43] <pygi> :D
[21:43] <Ahmuck> k, i'm a bit lost already this afternoon
[21:43] <sbalneav> So, lets say I hack around a bit, and come up with a patch to system-tools-backends to allow for ldap integration.
[21:43] <Ahmuck> is there a reason were not requiring apps to maintian thier own?
[21:43] <cbx33> hey peeps
[21:43] <Ahmuck> is there a ubuntu ltsp group?
[21:43] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: what do you mean?
[21:43] <highvoltage> sbalneav: if you are stupid then I certainly don't want to know what I am
[21:43] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: no
[21:44] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: just stgraber
[21:44] <sbalneav> How do I get the diff turned into the package?
[21:44] <Ahmuck> heh, well, that's a major problem
[21:44] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: and for the rest of Edubuntu I'm the only dev
[21:44] <alkisg> sbalneav: that's just one little command, I don't have it handy, but it's really *one* command
[21:44] <Ahmuck> did edubuntu apply for GSOC?
[21:44] <LaserJock> no
[21:45] <lfaraone> Ahmuck: other than the fact that in many cases upstream is lazy, or has better stuff to do, or can't support all the bajilllion different distros.
[21:45] <cbx33> ubuntu as a whole is not doing GSoC
[21:45] <Ahmuck> would there be any interest in YSOC?
[21:45] <LaserJock> Ubuntu is not a part of GSoC
[21:45] <highvoltage> I was just going to say what cbx33 said
[21:45] <lfaraone> LaserJock: why not?
[21:45] <LaserJock> not sure
[21:45] <sbalneav> I could help with LaserJock a lot more than I do, but once I find a problem, I'm in no position to be able to turn it into anything useful for LaserJock
[21:45] <Ahmuck> ubuntu think they were too good for GSOC?
[21:45] <Ahmuck> i'd say edubuntu was a perfect example for GSOC
[21:45] <LaserJock> I would guess because previous years have been a disaster for Ubuntu
[21:45] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: working with GSoC is lots of work
[21:45] <Ahmuck> why were they a disaster?
[21:45] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: and it's a big responsibility
[21:45] <Ahmuck> i know many projects where it works well
[21:46] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: it's not something that you should take on lightly
[21:46] <Ahmuck> two in fact where it works very well
[21:46] <LaserJock> GSoC just really doesn't seem to work with Ubuntu that well
[21:46] <Ahmuck> i'd be asking why
[21:46] <LaserJock> I think it's sort of a style/community difference
[21:46] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: and those are typically the projects that has the resources to do so
[21:46] <LaserJock> mostly you get a bunch of young people who want to work on Ubuntu
[21:47] <cbx33> yup
[21:47] <Ahmuck> lets assume one GSOC student could have been paired with ubuntu-ltsp dev.  that would have created a 1.5 dev on the project
[21:47] <lfaraone> Ahmuck: we're too large, and it takes too much long term commitment.
[21:47] <LaserJock> but they're not hooked into the community very well
[21:47] <LaserJock> and the mentors don't have a good idea of what's going on
[21:47] <cbx33> Ahmuck: I'd forget GSoC if I were you
[21:47] <lfaraone> Ahmuck: it makes better sense for upstream (IE LTSP) to do so.
[21:47] <lfaraone> * i.e.
[21:47] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:47] <Ahmuck> how does it make sense for upstream to do so if the project has died?
[21:47] <lfaraone> Ahmuck: meh.
[21:47] <Ahmuck> this is where i think there are problems
[21:48] <LaserJock> a GSoC student isn't going to revive Edubuntu
[21:48] <Ahmuck> and where i think that 1. goals need to be defined within the community
[21:48] <lfaraone> Ahmuck: we already have enough trouble managing the volunteers we have. GSoC is not cost-effective for us.
[21:48] <Ahmuck> 2. if there is no upstream support or devs, fork edubuntu into a purely community focus
[21:48] <Ahmuck> break it out of ubuntu if ubuntu has no devs or support for it
[21:48] <LaserJock> well
[21:49] <highvoltage> there's 0 reason for edubuntu to break away from ubuntu
[21:49] <LaserJock> the hope is that Edubuntu community produces Ubuntu devs
[21:49] <LaserJock> to work on Edubuntu
[21:50] <sbalneav> Forking a project doesn't magically create devs.  If we can't attract devs to what we already HAVE, then how will forking attract more? :)
[21:50] <cbx33> I think the biggest problem we have is a large userbase...but users != devs
[21:51] <cbx33> we have alot of people who want to USE it
[21:51] <cbx33> but not a lot of people who want to DEV for it
[21:51] <cbx33> DEVing for Educational stuff just isn't cool
[21:51] <cbx33> is the view
[21:51] <bencrisford1> hang on guys, i was attracted to this project :P
[21:51] <cbx33> imho
[21:51] <Ahmuck> sbalneav: forking may break what appears to be a red tape senario
[21:51] <cbx33> ++ bencrisford1 ;)
[21:51] <cbx33> but you are in a minority....mostly people want to work on ubuntu
[21:51] <bencrisford1> i think DEVing for edu stuff is the new black :P
[21:51] <LaserJock> we don't have a red tape problem
[21:52] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: right, but forking also means giving up all the potential support infrastructure we do have right now.
[21:52] <LaserJock> we have a "nobody is working on anything" problem
[21:52] <Ahmuck> two things happens with forks.  either the fork makes it and the original dies, or the original goes *yikes* and someone steps up to put more effort into the orginal
[21:52] <highvoltage> bencrisford1: heh
[21:52] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: but we're already at "yikes"
[21:52] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: well, in that case, feel free to fork off edubuntu
[21:52] <LaserJock> so no need to fork for that
[21:52] <Ahmuck> i'm not into forking either, but i'm re-considering ubuntu-ltsp as a network platform
[21:53] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: but edubuntu is going to stay as long as we can do anything about it
[21:53] <Ahmuck> i'm in decision mode :)
[21:53] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: well, what need to happen for you to stick with Edubuntu?
[21:53] <LaserJock> it's important to see what things need to change, and then to figure out what we can do to fix them
[21:53] <Ahmuck> arg, i just got reset
[21:54] <Ahmuck> so i assume everything i was typing never got seen
[21:54] <LaserJock> we don't need to fork or drop everything, etc. to fix thing and make them better
[21:54] <sbalneav> So, question is, if you're reconsidering ubuntu-ltsp as your platform, what would you move to?
[21:54] <Ahmuck> many people see edubuntu as ubuntu-ltsp
[21:54] <Ahmuck> sbalneav: i don't know at this point.
[21:55] <sbalneav> Who's currently doing *os*-ltsp better than ubuntu-ltsp?
[21:55] <alkisg> sbalneav: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete#Recipe:%20Updating%20An%20Ubuntu%20Package
[21:55] <Ahmuck> well, i've heard mandriva, opensuse ?
[21:55] <alkisg> debuild does it all...
[21:56] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: I personally would like to see edubuntu make an ltsp installation really, really simple, but edubuntu's scope is *SO MUCH* larger than just that
[21:57] <sbalneav> As far as I know, mandriva doesn't have LTSP5.  At least, no-one from Mandriva's ever come forward in #ltsp that I know of.
[21:57] <highvoltage> sbalneav: does fedora have a native meukow implementation, or do they use an ubuntu chroot?
[21:58] <LaserJock> openSUSE is also LTSP 4.2 right?
[21:58] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I think they use kiwi which is an ltsp 5 fork
[21:58] <LaserJock> ah
[21:58] <highvoltage> (iirc)
[22:00] <sbalneav> highvoltage: Fedora was heavily involved with ltsp5.  However, rumour has it that Fedora/Redhat is coming up with their OWN thin client solution, and have pretty much disappeared from the ltsp5 picture.
[22:03] <LaserJock> I don't know, I guess I'm just kinda biased
[22:03] <LaserJock> I just don't care that much personally about LTSP
[22:04] <LaserJock> I know it's important for people so it'd defiantly part of the Edubuntu mix
[22:04] <LaserJock> but I view it more as one of the vehicles with which we get educational "stuff" to users
[22:05] <Ahmuck> what is edbuntu's scope?
[22:06] <Ahmuck> sbalneav: fedora's ltsp solution is propetary?
[22:06] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: I don't know.
[22:06] <sbalneav> I don't think they have one yet
[22:07] <Ahmuck> so this afternoon has there been a list of goals decided ?
[22:07] <Ahmuck> when is the big ubuntu meeting?
[22:07] <sbalneav> Firday
[22:07] <Ahmuck> tomorrow? or a week from tomorrow ?
[22:07] <Ahmuck> er, sorry, this friday?
[22:07] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: I think we need to refactor edubuntu's scope a bit, but "to bring the best of upstream educational programs and content to ubuntu" will probably always be a very big part of it
[22:07] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: this friday, 22 may
[22:08] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: I sent a reminder to edubuntu-devel, check your inbox
[22:08] <Ahmuck> if edubuntu is not focused on ltsp, then the question that needs to be asked does ubuntu itself plan to do anything with ltsp?
[22:08] <Ahmuck> i'd also be asking why other distros have been dropping it.  to many problems?  ie "redhat"
[22:09] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: ubuntu already has a super-easy out-of-box ltsp installation
[22:09] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: it's an installer option on the alternate cd
[22:09] <Ahmuck> highvoltage: i agree
[22:09] <Ahmuck> however there are ltsp problems
[22:09] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: upstream problems?
[22:09] <Ahmuck> i'm not using edubuntu (kick me if you wish) but a pure ltsp environment at the moment.  i add on the edu packages via aptitude
[22:10] <sbalneav> Problems WITH ltsp, or problems that arise OUT OF running an ltsp environment?
[22:10] <Ahmuck> highvoltage: no, problems that arise out of ltsp environment
[22:10] <Ahmuck> SDL is one, flash is another, system messages, volume control, etc.
[22:11] <highvoltage> Ahmuck: those are mostly upstream issues, and is better solved through #ltsp and the ltsp community
[22:13] <sbalneav> Well, what doesn't work on them?  Flash, and volume control work fine for me
[22:13] <LaserJock> right now I think LTSP is positioned pretty well
[22:13] <sbalneav> Not sure what you mean by system messahes, but flash works fine for me too
[22:13] <LaserJock> it's an Ubuntu-wide tool that is often found in educational environments
[22:14] <LaserJock> as an Edubuntu development community builds I think LTSP will naturally get benefits from that
[22:14] <sbalneav> LTSP's just plumbing at this point
[22:15] <LaserJock> yeah
[22:15] <sbalneav> really, it's absolutely no different from OpenOffice.org or Firefox
[22:16] <LaserJock> ok, so I'm not sure we figured out any real "thing we're going to do really well"
[22:16] <LaserJock> I'd like to see something that's really going to set Edubuntu apart
[22:17] <sbalneav> Ahmuck?
[22:17] <Ahmuck_> i'm here
[22:17] <highvoltage> LaserJock: imho, and with my experience working with educators, ease of use and usability will go a very, very long way, and I would love it if that makes edubuntu stand out
[22:17] <Ahmuck_> just a minute
[22:17] <sbalneav> np
[22:18] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: I'm quite anxious to get started on some posters...
[22:18] <bencrisford1> :D :P
[22:18] <Ahmuck> with scribus ?
[22:18] <bencrisford1> possibly
[22:19] <bencrisford1> or just gimp
[22:19]  * Ahmuck is bouncing around classrooms
[22:19] <LaserJock> highvoltage: I think ease-of-use and usability are very in-line with what Ubuntu's all about
[22:20] <LaserJock> what would be our educational scope?
[22:20] <LaserJock> like age ranges, types of deployment/installs, etc.?
[22:22] <Ahmuck_> didn't we cover age ranges about 3 months ago?
[22:23] <Ahmuck_> you have two type of deployments.  one standalone, and one ltsp
[22:23] <Ahmuck_> both the installs seem to do well
[22:23] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I understand what you're saying, I think edubuntu could take it a step further, I don't want the educational scope to get neglected though
[22:24] <LaserJock> part of the discussion has been that we're spread too thin
[22:25] <LaserJock> we're not focused
[22:25] <Ahmuck_> we need 1. system configuration managment, 2. user managment, 3. workstation managment, 4. application managment(!)
[22:25] <LaserJock> so perhaps "make all of education usable and easy" is a bit too broad
[22:25] <Ahmuck_> so focus on one area first
[22:25] <Ahmuck_> make it stable and then move on
[22:25] <sbalneav> I have to bugger off home for the day.
[22:25] <LaserJock> Ahmuck_: what about educational apps?
[22:26] <Ahmuck_> what do you mean about the edu apps?
[22:26] <LaserJock> don't we need them?
[22:26] <sbalneav> I've just got the packaging guide printed out, I'm going to look at bringing sabayon up to date.
[22:26] <LaserJock> :-)
[22:26] <Ahmuck_> there are tons of edu apps out there
[22:26] <Ahmuck_> actually i wanted to touch on sabayon
[22:26] <Ahmuck_> in reguards to the edu apps, those left up to the instructor, and the instructor chooses which ones to install and use
[22:27] <alkisg> sbalneav: do you have a launchpad ppa?
[22:27] <highvoltage> LaserJock: what do you suggest?
[22:27] <Ahmuck_> or asks the school admin to do so (which may be the science teacher)
[22:27] <LaserJock> Ahmuck_: so we shouldn't ship any educational apps?
[22:29] <LaserJock> highvoltage: it's an interesting question
[22:29] <Ahmuck_> my opinion of edu apps is that the instructors themselves tend to pick what best works for them.  this means for a oss edu linux app to make it, they would have to pass an instuctors litmis test
[22:29] <Ahmuck_> so to speak
[22:29] <LaserJock> I would look at what we do well
[22:29] <LaserJock> Ahmuck_: fine, but what does that mean for us?
[22:29] <Ahmuck_> seriously, if the edu app doesn't fit what an instructor or school needs, why would you expect to convince them to use it
[22:29] <Ahmuck_> it means you may not know your audience
[22:29] <LaserJock> obviously
[22:30] <LaserJock> but we should probably ship some educational apps though, right?
[22:30] <LaserJock> I really don't see the point of an educational distro that doesn't ship primarily educational apps
[22:30] <LaserJock> one thing to consider is who our target user is
[22:31] <highvoltage> LaserJock: imho edu apps are also upstream work that we treat more or less the same as firefox/OOo/ltsp, perhaps with some higher priority though. edubuntu should take what's out there and deliver it well. that's just my opinion though.
[22:31] <LaserJock> sure
[22:31] <Ahmuck_> there are two things going on.  one is system management - ltsp, network printing, etc.  a type of network system for schools
[22:31] <LaserJock> but we're *not* delivering them well is my point
[22:31] <Ahmuck_> the other is edu apps
[22:31] <Ahmuck_> imho, one needs to split them
[22:31] <LaserJock> I'm saying we need to make sure we have the right apps, and that they are in good shape
[22:31] <Ahmuck_> ltsp is a type of network system, but doesn't include things like moodle, etc.
[22:32] <Ahmuck_> that would be a type of edu system support
[22:32] <Ahmuck_> the apps is an pure end user system
[22:32] <LaserJock> right
[22:32] <Ahmuck_> then you have the inbetween, ie, the teachers, who need to see test scores of the apps,e tc.  some way to measure progress
[22:33] <highvoltage> LaserJock: that "making sure they're in good shape" is a tough job, but equally important. I agree with you.
[22:33] <Ahmuck_> i'd recommend breaking edubuntu into three systems.  the pure ubuntu-ltsp edu support apps
[22:33] <Ahmuck_> the instructor interaction apps
[22:33] <Ahmuck_> and the pure end user apps
[22:33] <LaserJock> right
[22:33] <Ahmuck_> and creating three different teams
[22:33] <LaserJock> hmm
[22:33] <LaserJock> not sure about that one
[22:33] <LaserJock> we don't even have 1 team yet :-)
[22:34] <Ahmuck_> or i don't think your going to get a handle on it, because you can't handle everything in the pot
[22:34] <Ahmuck_> i'd even say a forth, ie, marketing/testing/recrutiment team
[22:34] <highvoltage> Ahmuck_: take it from LaserJock and I, just starting up teams doesn't solve any problems
[22:35] <Ahmuck_> an edu app team would look only at the edu apps on a ubuntu system and look at how well they run, how well they are adopted, etc.
[22:35] <Ahmuck_> i've started 4 in the last year.  it's not easy but it provides a better way to break out the work
[22:35] <highvoltage> I have an idea. we should just start a solve-all-our-problems team and then all our problems will be solved. how neat is that?
[22:36] <LaserJock> lol
[22:36] <bencrisford1> haha
[22:37] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: we have enough people here to run some teams
[22:37] <LaserJock> frankly I don't think we have enough people for even 1 team yet
[22:37] <LaserJock> based on past experience
[22:37] <bencrisford1> mark shuttleworth doesnt run ubuntu singehanded :P
[22:37] <bencrisford1> if we spread out into different teams
[22:37] <bencrisford1> then we do
[22:38] <bencrisford1> when ubuntu started there would be dev, art, marketing, docs
[22:38] <bencrisford1> sabdfl didnt run them all
[22:38] <bencrisford1> we have enough to start a couple core ones
[22:38] <bencrisford1> like dev, and packaging ?
[22:38] <LaserJock> we do?
[22:38] <bencrisford1> i think so
[22:38] <Ahmuck_> so, i'll give you an example.  a year ago, i started a regional lug.  i put the posters up in each town, i host the original meetings, etc.  today we have two strong local community lugs, and another one starting.  lug members are starting to get itchy about getting involved, and i'm able to step away from it more
[22:38] <Ahmuck_> they are now doing the organizing, the advertising and the instruction
[22:38] <LaserJock> I haven't had a single contributed package in ages
[22:39] <bencrisford1> trust me
[22:39] <bencrisford1> when we start reforming
[22:39] <bencrisford1> more people will come outta the woodworks
[22:40] <LaserJock> ok, well, I've been doing Ubuntu/Edubuntu development for almost 4 years
[22:40] <highvoltage> Ahmuck_: I like your enthusiasm, but I think it will benefit both yourself and edubuntu if you take the time to learn a bit more about ubuntu development processes
[22:40] <LaserJock> but perhaps we've got enough momentum going
[22:40] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: I would say go for energizing the existing LP teams
[22:40] <LaserJock> but lets not create any new teams on LP just yet
[22:40] <Ahmuck_> for example, stgraber could head the ltsp team (me thinks he already does), and nubae sugar (etc.) part of the support app team (core ?), etc.
[22:40] <bencrisford1> yeah
[22:40] <bencrisford1> im not sayign make new ones
[22:40] <LaserJock> we've got something like 13 teams already
[22:40] <bencrisford1> (apart from marketing :P)
[22:40] <bencrisford1> 13?!
[22:41] <bencrisford1> some of them can go IMO
[22:41] <Ahmuck_> 13, where?
[22:41] <Ahmuck_> highvoltage: what do you mean?
[22:41] <bencrisford1> i only found 3 or 4 when i searched
[22:41] <LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/people/?name=edubuntu&searchfor=teamsonly
[22:42] <bencrisford1> LoCos dont count...  :P
[22:42] <LaserJock> I know
[22:42] <LaserJock> I counted 14 non-LoCo teams
[22:42] <highvoltage> Ahmuck_: in terms of the development processes, etc. do you have at least a vague idea of seeds, top-level meta-packages, packaging itself, etc?
[22:43] <Ahmuck_> highvoltage: some.  i do my own svn packaging myself for packages that are not getting updated
[22:44] <LaserJock> look, I'm not trying to squash enthusiasm here. I just want to make sure things succeed and Edubuntu gets back off the ground
[22:44] <LaserJock> I've tried off-and-on for the last 2 years to get the community re-energized
[22:45] <LaserJock> just declaring teams and making remix DVD is not going to really turn things around
[22:46] <LaserJock> we need to help people to really dig in hard-core
[22:46] <bencrisford1> is the advocacy team responsible for marketing then?
[22:46] <LaserJock> I think that's what the purpose was
[22:46] <Ahmuck_> teams might help you focus.  it appears there are to many extraneous teams now, not the right ones?
[22:46] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: I would suggest a fresh start
[22:46] <bencrisford1> get rid of all the non-LoCos and start again
[22:46] <bencrisford1> all the teams are disorganised anyways
[22:46] <LaserJock> well, it's not that simple
[22:47] <bencrisford1> 2 accepted members, 80 propose members on one team
[22:47] <LaserJock> let's the the people going first and then we can work out the LP teams
[22:47] <highvoltage> bencrisford1: that's kind of the plan, but as LaserJock says, not that simple. you also don't want to through away perfectly good work that's already been done
[22:47] <Ahmuck_> i'm willing to do a wait and see until the big ubuntu hayday is over ... i'm interested in what comes out of it
[22:47] <LaserJock> the practical matter is that LP teams can't just be taken over
[22:47] <LaserJock> we require the cooperation of the existing team owner
[22:48] <LaserJock> several of whom are not around any more
[22:48] <Ahmuck_> LP == local?
[22:48] <LaserJock> Launchpad == LP
[22:48] <Ahmuck_> so if the existing team member is not around, ubuntu doesn't have a way to recoop the team?
[22:48] <Ahmuck_> and it just sits?
[22:49] <LaserJock> well
[22:49] <LaserJock> we can probably convince Launchpad admins that we should take it over
[22:49] <highvoltage> LP admins could delete them if need be, but it's a process
[22:49] <LaserJock> but I don't think we can make a good case if we have no people to replace it
[22:49] <LaserJock> i.e. "we don't have any people but please delete other people's team anyway"
[22:50] <LaserJock> whereas, "our team is expanding and we need the namespace" is much better
[22:53] <bencrisfo> this is bencrisford on ipod
[22:54] <bencrisfo> can only type slow so ill just listen in
[22:58] <Ahmuck_> school is out, but sys admins have to work through the summer.  i know teachers and admin personally, so i'm going to get an idea what's being used over the next month.  our local school district has an admin that comes in 10 hours a week.  don't know if that's helpful info or not.
[22:59] <LaserJock> I think it would be useful to look at what it is that users really want/need
[22:59] <LaserJock> sort of generalized
[23:04] <Ahmuck_> LaserJock: u r still the lead for edubuntu?
[23:04] <LaserJock> hmm
[23:04] <LaserJock> good question
[23:05] <bencrisfo> :p
[23:05] <LaserJock> in any practical sense I'd say no
[23:05] <Ahmuck_> does edubuntu have leadership?
[23:05] <LaserJock> I'd prefer perhaps Leader emeritus
[23:05] <LaserJock> ;-)
[23:06] <LaserJock> in any practical sense, no
[23:06] <bencrisfo> lol
[23:06] <LaserJock> we had an Edubuntu Council
[23:06] <LaserJock> but 3 out of 5 members I believe are gone
[23:06] <Ahmuck_> can a project have direction without active leadership?
[23:07] <bencrisfo> yeah
[23:07] <LaserJock> well, I think that's kinda where we're at right now
[23:07] <LaserJock> we're all just kinda hanging out figuring out how to move forward
[23:07] <LaserJock> I think an important part of that would be to reform the Edubuntu Council
[23:08] <bencrisfo> i agree
[23:09] <bencrisfo> i need sleep
[23:09] <Ahmuck_> nn
[23:09] <Ahmuck_> i'm out for a while
[23:09] <bencrisfo> ill talk tommorrow, noght
[23:10] <Ahmuck_> here, but afk
[23:19] <Ahmuck_> is there a document that shows the core apps or the edu app structure of edubuntu?  ie a structure tree?
[23:19] <Ahmuck_> i'd like to see one.
[23:19] <Ahmuck_> er, i'd like to view it
[23:20] <LaserJock> there's not really much of a tree
[23:21] <LaserJock> I guess there is a little bit now with the ubuntu-edu-* metapackages
[23:22] <LaserJock> http://www.edubuntu.org/applications/8.10 at least lists them pretty much
[23:22] <LaserJock> as far as the edu apps
[23:24] <LaserJock> the seeds have the structure, but it's not easily viewable
[23:25] <Ahmuck_> i'm going to create one for myself to get an overview of what's available.  i'll make notes and if it doesn't work or it's clunky, i'll kick those out as i go.  at least somebody will have an idea of what somebody else might be looking for and it'll give a starting structure and breakdown into catagories.  don't expect it for 14 days, as it'll take that time inbetwen what i'm doing now to complete
[23:26] <LaserJock> sure, thanks