[00:03] <Ahmuck_> neat.  light and versatile is good
[00:04] <Lns> that's what we're going for =)
[00:07] <Lns> nubae: ping?
[03:08] <Ahmuck_> does edu apps touch optimized ?
[12:23] <skipjack> Hello
[12:25] <nubae> hi skipjack
[12:25] <skipjack> I think I have a Problem ;) my ThinClients starts with an 180 degres rotated X...
[12:25] <skipjack> knows someone about this?
[12:26] <nubae> oh nice :-)
[12:26] <skipjack> hehe ;) nice but not usable ;)
[12:26] <nubae> well sounds like xorg.conf has that set with xrandr... first try reconfiguring your thin clients
[12:27] <skipjack> hehe anyone an idea?
[12:27] <skipjack> okay,
[12:27] <nubae> so dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
[12:27] <skipjack> you mean xorg for the thinclient or is that xorg of my server?
[12:27] <nubae> thin client
[12:27] <nubae> but maybe first, lets try debugging from the beginning
[12:28] <nubae> pastebin your lts.conf for me and also output of lspci
[12:28] <nubae> and your dmesg and xorg.conf (from thin client, not server)
[12:28] <skipjack> hehe okay,
[12:29] <skipjack> the things from the thin client, should be a Problem. because I can't login in console
[12:29] <skipjack> and with 180 degree x, it's verry hard
[12:32] <alkisg> ¡ɟʇʍ
[12:33] <skipjack> hehe that's not fair..
[12:33] <skipjack> the file: /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf is empty?
[12:33] <skipjack> or where is it located?
[12:33] <alkisg> By default, yes
[12:34] <skipjack> oh okay, but not empty / not created is better discriped
[12:34] <nubae> ok... well start by creating it
[12:35] <nubae> and set X_CONFIGURE=True and XSERVER=auto
[12:35] <nubae> or was it X_SERVER?
[12:35] <nubae> anyway.... the file must contain the first line saying [default] and then underneath the things I just mentione
[12:35] <skipjack> xorg
[12:36] <alkisg> skipjack: version?
[12:36] <nubae> no, we're gonna try skipping some steps and move straight to configuring your xserver
[12:36] <nubae> so just try XSERVER=auto, xorg should normally configure itself
[12:36] <skipjack> 1.6.0
[12:37] <skipjack> xorg-server 2:1.6.0-0ubuntu14 (buildd@rothera.buildd)
[12:37] <nubae> unlesss alkisg prefers to lead u through the whole debugging process ;p
[12:37] <skipjack> hehe;) nice
[12:38] <alkisg> nubae: nah... just asking for (ed)ubuntu version to see if configure_x is needed. Don't worry, I'm into cooperated troubleshooting, not like some others... :P :D
[12:39] <nubae> so whats ure ed/ubuntu version skipjack?
[12:40] <skipjack> lts.conf :  http://nopaste.info/ea0afdca57.html
[12:40] <skipjack> lspci (Server): http://nopaste.info/c2592ab9d5.html
[12:40] <skipjack> ubuntu 9.04
[12:42] <skipjack> I have now started an X Session ( ThinClient) with XTerminal ( Rescure Solution )... and here is the whole session only an opend xterm, but here are the thinks not rotated
[12:42] <skipjack> who can I now get the dmesg and xorg config of the thin client ?
[12:42] <nubae> do what I said above
[12:42] <skipjack> I think config is under /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/ ?
[12:42] <nubae> create lts.conf with [default] and both options
[12:42] <skipjack> yes
[12:42] <skipjack> created
[12:43] <nubae> u did that already?
[12:43] <skipjack> yes
[12:43] <skipjack> I did it
[12:43] <nubae> under /var/lib/tftpboot?
[12:43] <skipjack> hehe I should write back when I have finish an ToDo-Step which you sayed me
[12:43] <skipjack> yes
[12:43] <nubae> ok, and the screen still comes out sideways?
[12:44] <skipjack> I have created and copyed then to the aboved no-paste pages
[12:44] <nubae> ok so its nvidia, set XSERVER=nvidia and try again
[12:45] <skipjack> I must restart the thinclient after editing lts.conf?
[12:45] <skipjack> okay
[12:45] <skipjack> oh okay wait, it's nvidia on the server
[12:46] <nubae> oh, I need lspci from the thin client
[12:46] <skipjack> but in the thinclient here is an ati card
[12:46] <nubae> ok, so try XSERVER=ati
[12:46] <skipjack> okay, that's my problem. I don't know how?
[12:46] <nubae> but I need to know which make exacly as it could be radeon or even radeonhd
[12:46] <skipjack> can I get this from thinclient
[12:47] <nubae> well, first thing is to give root a pass on the  thin client chroot
[12:47] <nubae> thats done by doing sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386
[12:47] <nubae> and then passwd (mypassword)
[12:47] <nubae> no brackets
[12:48] <nubae> then u can hit fkey +ctrl+alt and get a screen to login to the thin client directly, where u can lspci for the vga card
[12:50] <skipjack> thin-Client lspci : http://nopaste.info/9793547ecd.html
[12:51] <skipjack> :fuck
[12:51] <skipjack> sorry, was also not the right
[12:54] <alkisg> skipjack: let me get this straight:
[12:54] <alkisg> In ldm (the login screen) you see things right,
[12:54] <skipjack> yes
[12:54] <alkisg> but when you login they're upside down?
[12:55] <skipjack> hmm I have chrooted, and passwd. But I can't login at the default Console . ( STRG + ALT + F1 .. )
[12:55] <alkisg> skipjack: if so, it's not a thin client thing
[12:55] <skipjack> alkisg: yes
[12:55] <skipjack> okay
[12:55] <alkisg> skipjack: create a new user and try with him
[12:56] <skipjack> hmm okay,
[12:56] <nubae> I think root is immutable isn't?
[12:56] <alkisg> Don't log into the server with that user - try directly into the client
[12:56] <skipjack> okay
[12:56] <nubae> u have to mode -i I believe
[12:56] <nubae> or whatever the command is again, alkisg?
[12:56] <alkisg> passwd -u
[12:56] <alkisg> Or SCREEN_02=shell and SCREEN_07=ldm
[12:57] <nubae> I never was able to get 2 screens goigng at the same time
[12:57] <nubae> alkisg: u were?
[12:57] <skipjack> okay, user: thin2 created, and I logged in at thinclient
[12:57] <alkisg> Yeah, with both of the SCREENS defined
[12:57] <alkisg> skipjack: and you got the same problem?
[12:57] <skipjack> yes
[12:57] <alkisg> Did you install the nvidia driver at the server?
[12:58] <skipjack> yes
[12:58] <alkisg> I think it messes with some libraries... :(
[12:58] <nubae> wiat though, we need him to tell us the card on the client
[12:58] <alkisg> nubae: it works fine up until ldm
[12:58] <alkisg> So I don't think it's an X problem in the thin client...
[12:58] <nubae> hmmm
[12:58] <skipjack> hmm the laptop/thinclient card is an ati radeon X1600
[12:58] <skipjack> useally driver: fglrx
[12:59] <nubae> well thats easily enough testable, try defining a static xorg.conf
[12:59] <nubae> and see what happens
[12:59] <alkisg> or with XDRIVER=vesa
[12:59] <nubae> vesa sometimes doesnt work for ati cards
[12:59] <alkisg> ok
[12:59] <nubae> they are a pain in the ass (modern atis)
[12:59] <nubae> always the same story, they are never caught up
[13:00] <skipjack> I should edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf ( on the server ) and change the driver to vesa oder svga?
[13:00] <alkisg> No no don't change that
[13:00] <alkisg> Either XSERVER=vesa in lts.conf (but it may not work with ati as nubae says), or what nubae said.
[13:02] <skipjack> okay: /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf changed
[13:03] <skipjack> I should restart the thin client?
[13:03] <alkisg> yeah
[13:03] <skipjack> okay
[13:04] <skipjack> okay, thin client is back
[13:05] <skipjack> should I login?
[13:05] <alkisg> Yes
[13:05] <skipjack> okay
[13:05] <skipjack> okay looks better ;)
[13:06] <alkisg> That's because the vesa driver doesn't support rotation? :)
[13:06] <skipjack> lol ;)
[13:06] <skipjack> hehe okay. But I think it's important that I get flgrx/ati driver running under thinclients
[13:06] <skipjack> is that possible?
[13:06] <alkisg> What does it use if you don't define anything in lts.conf?
[13:07] <skipjack> hehe good queston ;) wee will see ;)
[13:07] <alkisg> Try with:
[13:07] <alkisg> [Default]
[13:07] <alkisg> SCREEN_02=shell
[13:07] <alkisg> SCREEN_07=ldm
[13:07] <alkisg> as the contents of lts.conf
[13:08] <skipjack> hehe no it's okay, i'm only an novice at ltsp / thinclient
[13:08] <alkisg> So that you can debug it from the shell
[13:08] <skipjack> okay Parameters are add
[13:08] <skipjack> restart thin client?
[13:09] <alkisg> skipjack: yes, but put *only* those parameters
[13:09] <alkisg> Nothing else...
[13:09] <skipjack> oh okay
[13:10] <alkisg> With Alt+Ctrl+F2 you'll get to a local shell prompt as root
[13:10] <skipjack> okay
[13:10] <alkisg> So you'll be able to see /var/log/Xorg.0.log etc
[13:10] <Ahmuck_> good morning
[13:10] <alkisg> Hi Ahmuck_
[13:11] <skipjack> ah okay ;)
[13:11] <skipjack> great
[13:12] <skipjack> okay should I paste Xorg.7.log ( .0.log does not exist,.. )
[13:13] <alkisg> Yeah, sure, upload it to pastebin
[13:13] <Ahmuck_> pastebin.be
[13:13] <alkisg> And also the output of `lspci | grep VGA` for nubae to see the exact card model (I've absolutely no clue about ATI's)
[13:14] <alkisg> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/
[13:14] <Ahmuck_> i picked up 5 pc with 1.2Ghz procs and 512mb ram ... however they appear to have some type of novell boot rather than pxe boot
[13:15] <alkisg> Hmmm?
[13:16] <nubae> there is no such thing :-)
[13:16] <nubae> its probably novell pxe boot
[13:17] <nubae> although didnt novell have their networking system... but that was like 20 years ago
[13:17] <alkisg> Yeah, that was my first lab... 386 sx with 2 mb ram, no hd :)
[13:17] <skipjack> okay, 1sorry wait a moment, I must take a call
[13:17] <alkisg> Booting from a novell 486 server
[13:23] <skipjack> Xorg.7.log ( ThinClient): http://nopaste.info/b76758618d.html
[13:23] <skipjack> lspci ( thinclient) : http://nopaste.info/3b41f3cdd8.html
[13:27] <skipjack> alkisg: nubae
[13:28]  * alkisg doesn't have a clue about ati cards/drivers
[13:28] <nubae> sec
[13:28] <Ahmuck_> RPL ROM ?
[13:29] <nubae> ok, u need the fglrx driver
[13:29] <nubae> its properietary so u may need to install it in the chroot
[13:30] <nubae> I wrote this down once, long ago, requires u to get the xserver-ati, and couple of the things... let me recheck
[13:31] <nubae> u need xorg-driver-fglrx in the chroot
[13:31] <Ahmuck_> novell netware firmware ready, RPL ROM, and then crashes
[13:31] <nubae> sounds like a busted pxe
[13:32] <nubae> can u switch the cards?
[13:32] <nubae> thats definitely gonna be the cheapest solution
[13:32] <Ahmuck_> looks like your system isn't locating the boot sector on the hard drive and is then looking for an RPL server from which to perform a remote boot
[13:33] <nubae> skipjack: and u need linux-restricted-modules
[13:33] <Ahmuck_> http://www.cybertechhelp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17190
[13:33] <skipjack> nubae:  okay, but on the thinclient I need this packages?
[13:34] <nubae> skipjack: follow teh ati part of this tutorial
[13:34] <nubae> http://www.waterlovinghead.com/LinuxLTSP
[13:34] <skipjack> my server has this packages installed, and I have here running nvidia driver. also my own compiled kernel
[13:34] <skipjack> okay
[13:34] <skipjack> thanks
[13:34] <nubae> of course exchanging the fglrx versions for the latest
[13:34] <nubae> which u can download from the net some place
[13:35] <nubae> but basically that should help, u obviously dont need the cinerama part unless u have 2 monitors u want to use
[13:35] <nubae> on the thin client
[13:36] <skipjack> hehe ;)
[13:36] <skipjack> that's the next step
[13:36] <skipjack> I hope 100mbit is enought for Xorg and working
[13:38] <nubae> sure, but dont expect 3d and flash working well
[13:38] <skipjack> okay, so I should upgrade to 1000mbit Network?
[13:39] <skipjack> is there an page about calculation such things?
[13:40] <skipjack> so that I can do some Math about calculation the traffic..
[13:41] <Ahmuck_> ok, it's Novell RPL RPM (boot) for the nic, and here is no way to change it to pxe.  does ltsp have support for novell rpl boot rom ?
[14:03] <alkisg> Ahmuck_: are you sure it doesn't have pxe support from the bios? I.e. an option for rpl/pxe?
[14:05] <alkisg> skipjack: e.g. for xv video, the formula is: width*height*frames per second*12 bits color depth
[14:07] <nubae> Ahmuck_: change the card
[14:07] <nubae> is it really worh
[14:07] <nubae> all this trouble
[14:08] <nubae> I mean... surely your time is worth about 50$ minimum per hour, and u've already spent that on this
[14:08] <alkisg> rpl booting: http://www.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/RPL
[14:08] <nubae> u could have bought 5 pxe booting cards with that money ;-)
[14:14] <Ahmuck_> alkisg: i'm sure.  IBM RPL-ROM does, Novell doesn't from what i gather on the inet
[14:14] <Ahmuck_> i'll check again
[14:14] <Ahmuck_> card is onboard
[14:14] <Ahmuck_> sis chipset
[14:15] <Ahmuck_> i'm going to use gplx instead
[14:15] <Ahmuck_> though it's been mentioned to try bootp
[14:19] <alkisg> Ahmuck_: http://www.huweb.hu/maques/rpl.htm
[14:19] <alkisg> But seriously, use newer cards :)
[14:20] <Ahmuck_> alkisg: ah, and here is the disconnect.  teachers are buying their own supplies with their own money to fund their classroom activities
[14:21] <alkisg> OK, they can give 10$ less in hw and 100$ more in support if they want :)
[14:22] <Ahmuck_> actually, it's a good thing to know
[14:22] <Ahmuck_> the supports already paid for
[14:22] <Ahmuck_> the card's aren't
[14:26] <Ahmuck_> using old pc's as they are and with someone on staff that has the time is the idea solution.  the other solution is to get everything new, given to you, which is what the state and ms is doing in our area, except it's all microsoft :)
[14:28] <nubae> I'm gonna start calling edubuntu a legacy os :p
[14:29] <alkisg> Ahmuck_: well if they have a floppy/cd/hd you may probably use gpxe
[14:32] <Ahmuck_> alkisg: actually, it appears i can flash the boot PROM with gpxe
[14:32] <Ahmuck_> and it'll do away with the RPL-ROM
[14:34] <alkisg> Maybe you want to try it first with a floppy to see if it actually works
[14:45] <Ahmuck_> actually, i thought i'd create a cdrom
[14:54] <Ahmuck_LTSP> Internal GStreamer error: state change failed.  Please file a bug at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=GStreamer.
[14:55] <Ahmuck_LTSP> listening to a stream from di.fm, solo piano
[14:55] <Ahmuck_LTSP> using media player
[14:57] <Ahmuck_LTSP> Inserting a CD on server causes notices to come up on every machine.  Ubuntu Alternate CD triggers "upgrade" option as it should but sends notices to every client
[14:59] <skipjack> hmm is it possible to change the Video Driver / create/recompile an new fglrx(Ati) driver for LTSP 4.2 ?
[15:11] <Ahmuck_> hi pleia2
[15:11] <pleia2> hello Ahmuck_
[15:11] <Ahmuck_> how's ledgersmb ?
[15:12] <pleia2> chugging along, no major developments
[15:12] <pleia2> unfortunately I need to pull back in development some, I simply don't have the time
[15:17] <nubae> skipjack: wait... u are using 4.2?
[15:17] <skipjack> nubae:  nope ;) I have thinked
[15:17] <skipjack> I have checked that I useing 5.1 ..
[15:17] <nubae> ok, 4.2 is no longer supported
[15:17] <nubae> at all
[15:17] <Ahmuck_> pleia2: isn't that always the case :)
[15:18] <Ahmuck_> i'm hiring somebody on monday to take up my overwork so i can do more on the oss side
[15:18] <skipjack> yes ;) have seen, then checked
[15:18] <pleia2> Ahmuck_: nice :) ledgersmb was a work thing but we've moved on and I stayed on the team, but now I don't have work time to devote to it
[15:19] <pleia2> and I tend to like doing more community-ish things in my free time
[15:21] <nubae> pleia2: have u heard about sugar?
[15:21] <nubae> its a new window manager/learning environment for kids between 3-14
[15:22] <nubae> its very special and an amazing community
[15:22] <nubae> we are looking for more volunteers that could help us...
[15:23] <nubae> the project is all about learning to learning and we have some amazing innovations like truly collaborative apps that allow many kids to work in groups, as well as a jorunaling system that replaces file keeping completely
[15:23] <nubae> that way u know what u did, when u did it, and what it was all about...
[15:23] <nubae> sugarlabs.org
[15:29] <Ahmuck_> does ubuntu ltsp use tftp, http, or ftp for it's boot method ?
[15:30] <pleia2> nubae: I have, but I've more been diving into moodle of late for educational tools
[15:30] <pleia2> (have heard of it, that is)
[15:30] <nubae> yeah Moodle is great
[15:30] <alkisg> Ahmuck_: tftp, usually.
[15:31] <nubae> at openSUSE we are migrating everything to that
[15:31] <nubae> openSUSE-edu that is
[15:31] <alkisg> And that would be PXE, not specifically ltsp
[15:35] <Ahmuck_> alrighty
[15:36] <Ahmuck_> got it.  download rom to cdrom and create and iso via "rom-o-matic" at http://rom-o-matic.net/.  boot order as cd-rom, network, none
[15:36] <Ahmuck_> now booting gpxe and getting clients
[15:36]  * Ahmuck_ dances a jig
[15:36] <Ahmuck_> and i still have my 50.00 :)
[15:37] <nubae> how do u calculate that? how much time have u spent on getting the cards to work? 4 hours?
[15:37] <nubae> that would mean u are 150 in the red :p
[15:39] <Ahmuck_> nubae: 0
[15:39] <Ahmuck_> if it don't work i don't mess with it
[15:42] <Ahmuck_> in fact, from a educational stand point, or from a onsite tech standpoint i think your going to find this true.  10 min, don't work, move on
[15:55] <Ahmuck_> seriously, opposing individuals who are making an effort to stay with edubuntu reguardless how they choose to do it is counterproductive
[15:55] <Ahmuck_> anywho, i'll look at the docs and see if RPL-ROM is covered.  if not i'll add it
[16:08] <LaserJock> morning everybody
[16:26] <Ahmuck_> gooooood morning LaserJock
[16:26] <Ahmuck_> don't forget your disertation !
[16:28] <Ahmuck_> i've been thinking about edubuntu.  if edubuntu wants to focus on edu apps then a ubuntu-ltsp group needs to be formed to deal with specific ubuntu-ltsp issues
[16:28] <LaserJock> Ahmuck_: I think stgraber would appreciate help
[16:29] <Ahmuck_> and now for question.  setting the default size for login screen, 1024x800 and session, and dpi for fonts.  something i need to do universally
[16:29] <stgraber> Ahmuck_: +1
[16:29] <stgraber> actually at next UDS, LTSP will be part of Ubuntu Server, not education
[16:29] <Ahmuck_> stgraber: +1 (?)
[16:29] <Ahmuck_> stgraber: so, then all ltsp questions would be answered in ubuntu-server not in edubuntu ?
[16:30] <stgraber> well, I'll still be in that chan ;) but yes, that's the idea
[16:30] <stgraber> that also means joining the ubuntu server community which is quite active and getting things like some room at UDS for discussion
[16:30] <Ahmuck_> so then any edubuntu-ltsp question should be deffered to ubuntu-server
[16:31] <Ahmuck_> stgraber: u mean me ?
[16:31] <Ahmuck_> rather than #ltsp
[16:31] <Ahmuck_> sometimes i get the response from edubuntu - that is a ltsp question, and from #ltsp - that is a ubuntu question, and from ubuntu - that is a edubuntu question, and so on.  stuck in an infintate loop
[16:32] <Ahmuck_> how does ubuntu server differ from ubuntu-ltsp ?
[16:33] <Ahmuck_> i can actually do a standalone ubuntu client if ubuntu server would do things like central user managment, desktop configurations, lockdown, etc.
[16:33] <Ahmuck_> which appears to be stronger in ltsp whereas server is just serving apps, webserving, etc.  i might be mis-understanding the two roles
[16:35] <LaserJock> Ahmuck_: I think the point would be that the Server Team is much more familiar with the server aspects of LTSP
[16:36] <stgraber> Ahmuck_: LTSP needs to be part of an official team so that we can be part of the whole speccing/UDS/... process
[16:36] <Ahmuck_> in reguards to edubuntu apps, part of our problem is teachers already have their favourites.  this means the app has to be extra spectacular, with teacher management capabilities.  extra spectacular includes lesson play, graphics, progress measuring, etc.  there are plenty of salesmen triping over the threshold trying to get apps in at the state level.  at the local level is where you would...
[16:36] <Ahmuck_> ...make a dent.
[16:36] <stgraber> currently LTSP was a bit of education, desktop and server but not fully part of any of these
[16:36] <Ahmuck_> i would agre, ltsp needs it's own team
[16:37] <Ahmuck_> and edubuntu would deal only with the edu apps portion of ltsp, such as SDL sound, etc.
[16:37] <Ahmuck_> by doing so you have people specialized in those areas rather than trying to do it all in one basket so to speak
[16:38] <Ahmuck_> and/or needs to be a sub-team of ubuntu-server
[16:38] <Ahmuck_> bbl, afk
[17:34] <bencrisford1> Hi LaserJock
[17:34] <bencrisford1> anything new with the 'edubuntu revolution'?
[17:35] <LaserJock> in 1.5 hrs we'll find out
[17:35] <bencrisford1> oh yeah, the meeting
[17:35] <bencrisford1> what time is that btw?
[17:37] <bencrisford1> i have a spux developer meeting at 19:00 UTC, but I guess I attend both, shouldnt be too busy
[17:37] <LaserJock> 18:00UTC
[17:40]  * bencrisford1 has back to back meetings :P
[17:40] <bencrisford1> is there an agenda page we can edit LaserJock?
[17:40] <LaserJock> let's see
[17:41] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: go for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
[17:41] <bencrisford1> ok thanks :)
[17:49] <bencrisford1> added some ideas LaserJock
[17:50] <LaserJock> I see that
[17:50] <bencrisford1> aaggh scary, i created edit conflicts...
[17:50] <bencrisford1> how did i manage that?
[17:50] <bencrisford1> and what are they :P?
[17:51] <pleia2> looks like you saved after I did
[17:51] <bencrisford1> oh
[17:52] <bencrisford1> how do we fix it?
[17:52] <pleia2> I can fix it
[17:52] <pleia2> (it didn't give me a warning while editing though, odd)
[17:53] <pleia2> anyway, all fixed :)
[17:53] <LaserJock> hi pleia2!
[17:53] <pleia2> hey LaserJock!
[17:59] <LaserJock> I think we're going to have to run a fairly tight meeting or it's going to take forever
[18:00] <davidgroos> Hi All
[18:00] <davidgroos> Meeting in a couple hours yes?
[18:01] <davidgroos> Where?
[18:02] <LaserJock> in 1hr here
[18:02] <davidgroos> OH!
[18:02] <davidgroos> Thanks, I'll be there
[18:03] <davidgroos> here
[18:04] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: if its here, want me to edit the agenda page
[18:04] <bencrisford1> it says its in ubuntu-meeting
[18:04] <LaserJock> sure
[18:04]  * Lns waves
[18:05] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: I put it at the top of the agenda instea
[18:05] <bencrisford1> instead(
[18:05] <bencrisford1> instead*
[18:07] <Ahmuck_> LaserJock: tight meeting?
[18:07] <LaserJock> not a lot of wandering around
[18:08] <Ahmuck_> is the agenda set ?
[18:08] <Ahmuck_> not a lot of wandering around as in no room for ideas?
[18:08] <LaserJock> no
[18:08] <LaserJock> I mean we can't spend 1 hr on a single topic
[18:11] <sbalneav> Hello!
[18:11] <sbalneav> Sorry, I'm out of town today, and taking care of a problem.
[18:12] <sbalneav> So I'm not going to be able to show, but...
[18:12] <sbalneav> I did get Sabayon 2.25 to compile cleanly.
[18:12] <sbalneav> For ther record, here's what I'll commit to.
[18:12] <sbalneav> 1) Learning packaging to help with bug fixing
[18:12] <sbalneav> 2) fixig sabayon
[18:13] <sbalneav> 3) Helping to bring the LTSP and Edubuntu Handbook documents up-to-date
[18:13] <sbalneav> 4) (if time permits) coming up with a preliminary LDAP implementation, with a patch for systems-tools-backends to allow user-and-group tools to use ldap
[18:14] <sbalneav> Someone post the results of the meeting to the mailing list.
[18:14] <sbalneav> Cheers
[18:14] <LaserJock> sbalneav: thanks
[18:15] <asanchez> Hi everybody from Spain
[18:16] <LaserJock> hello
[18:18] <Ahmuck_> i'm willing to run multiple test installations and do real time testing with feedback.  i don't know the proper tools in ubuntu and if their too clunky (dig through multiple links, multiple registration) i'll think about it
[18:18] <asanchez> Hello LaserJock, im a member of GuadalinexEdu development team, we are highly interested in collaboration
[18:19] <LaserJock> great
[18:21] <asanchez> The main difference between GuadalinexEdu and Edubuntu is the structure of "Education" menu
[18:22] <LaserJock> oh really?
[18:22] <LaserJock> do you have a screenshot of it?
[18:22] <asanchez> we organize applications by subjects
[18:22] <asanchez> Im going to upload it now
[18:25] <pygi> highvoltage: when is the meeting exactly?
[18:26] <Ahmuck_> 4 min ?
[18:26] <LaserJock> 34 min
[18:26] <asanchez> LaserJock, http://www.guadalinexedu.org/guadalinexedu_science_menu.png
[18:27] <LaserJock> asanchez: very nice
[18:27] <LaserJock> asanchez: we've worked on some similar idea
[18:27] <LaserJock> asanchez: how are you changing the menu?
[18:27] <asanchez> now we are doing nasty things
[18:27] <asanchez> we overwrite .desktops using dpkg-divert
[18:27] <nubae> meeting already started?
[18:28]  * nubae scrolls uo
[18:28] <nubae> up even
[18:28] <asanchez> we use one package for each ubuntu original package in order to modify menu entry
[18:29] <LaserJock> asanchez: hmm, that is kinda nasty
[18:29] <asanchez> yes, we know
[18:29] <LaserJock> asanchez: I think you could use a package based on edubuntu-menus to fix that
[18:29] <asanchez> but we have only 3 months to package all the applications and we dont have the known-how
[18:30] <LaserJock> asanchez: better menus is definitely something Edubuntu is interested in
[18:30] <LaserJock> asanchez: yeah, using XDG you don't have to mess with the .desktops at all
[18:30] <LaserJock> just add in a .menu file with the new structure
[18:31] <asanchez> there will be very nice if we can organize Education menu depending on student profile
[18:31]  * Ahmuck_ just had an ephiphany
[18:31] <asanchez> we have some specific applications for teachers that only appears when teachers log in
[18:31] <LaserJock> asanchez: yep, I think that can be done fairly easily
[18:32] <Ahmuck_> asanchez: log in ?  ie, ltsp ?
[18:32] <asanchez> Ahmuck_, we dont use LTSP in schools
[18:32] <asanchez> we have try TCOS
[18:32] <Ahmuck_> how r they logging in ?
[18:32] <Ahmuck_> ok, /me will google
[18:33] <asanchez> they authenticate against LDAP server
[18:33] <bencrisford1> back
[18:33] <Ahmuck_> http://www.tcosproject.org/
[18:33] <asanchez> sorry about mi poor english
[18:33] <Ahmuck_> so it's still a thin client system
[18:33] <Ahmuck_> i understand you
[18:33] <nubae> asanchez: habeis mirado alguna vez sugar?
[18:34] <Ahmuck_> so edubuntu is still being used in a thin client atmosphere
[18:34] <Ahmuck_> not as a standalone installation or dvd/cd
[18:34] <nubae> es un sistema para ninos entres 4-14 anos
[18:34] <Ahmuck_> who chooses your apps, the school board or the instructors
[18:34] <asanchez> our students can login in any computer at the school and they can access to their documents mounting the entire home by NFS
[18:34] <nubae> es un sistema construcionista, lo que significa que los ninos pueden colaborar en las actividades
[18:35] <Ahmuck_> who makes the decision to use TCOS, the local school teacher/admin or the instructor
[18:35] <asanchez> nubae, we dont have any notice about it, let me google
[18:35] <nubae> es muy facil para manejar y mantener el menu de aplicaciones, vale la pena echar le un vistazo
[18:35] <Ahmuck_> instructor/teacher
[18:35] <nubae> sugarlabs.org
[18:35] <nubae> es lo que usan los xo... ya sabes el one laptop per child
[18:36] <nubae> que esta actualmente usado muchisimo en sud america (peru, colombia, paraguay, brazil)
[18:36] <asanchez> Ahmuck_, we have over 225.000 computers running GuadalinexEdu, the whole applications were demanded by educational comunity
[18:36] <asanchez> anybody can request a free software application, we package it or develop it and deploy it to schools
[18:36] <Ahmuck_> who is your educational community?  teachers, parents, administration?  are you using windows apps in the environment via wine?
[18:37] <Ahmuck_> ah
[18:37] <nubae> mola eso asanchez, no necesitais ayuda? Hablo perfectamente Espanol y aunque estoy actualmente en Vienna, Austria, he vivido mucho tiempo en la costa del sol
[18:37] <nubae> estoy pensando en regresar, pero busco un trabajo en el area de linux/educacion
[18:37] <asanchez> We work for Andalusian regional goverment
[18:38] <nubae> btw, I am the packager for sugar on opensuse...
[18:39] <asanchez> Our central goverment is planning to provide one laptop per student in public education in Spain
[18:39] <Ahmuck_> meeting starts in ?
[18:39] <highvoltage> pygi: in 20 minutes
[18:39] <asanchez> Currently we have 1 computer for 2 stundents in schools in Andalusia
[18:39] <Ahmuck_> k
[18:39] <nubae> hmmm... pues de verdad, mirar sugar... es una comunidad tremenda con ambiciones increibles
[18:39] <pygi> highvoltage: thank you kind sir :)
[18:39] <nubae> buscamos actualmente proyectos pilotos en Espana
[18:39] <highvoltage> pygi: unfortunately I don't think I can make it
[18:40] <Svenstaro> did the meeting start
[18:40] <Svenstaro> or right, 20min
[18:40] <asanchez> nubae, maybe we can collaborate to make a pilot project
[18:40] <pygi> highvoltage: I'll tell you what happens on sunday :)
[18:40] <nubae> seria lo suyo...
[18:40] <highvoltage> pygi: I only got back to the hostel where I'll be staying today and tomorrow now, and I have either power or internet, and my power is running out
[18:40] <nubae> sugar necesita muy poca memoria y cpu
[18:40] <nubae> entonces va bien en maquinas antiguas
[18:40] <LaserJock> highvoltage: you gonna make the meeting?
[18:40] <Ahmuck_> nubae: does sugar install on 9.04 ?
[18:40] <nubae> pero la experiencia sigue siendo super avanzado
[18:41] <Ahmuck_> does it install on 8.04?
[18:41] <nubae> install yes... but its an ancient version
[18:41] <asanchez> our main problem is not old hardware bu new one
[18:41] <nubae> we need sugar packagers for ubuntu
[18:41] <Ahmuck_> nubae: can be built from source?
[18:41] <nubae> asanchez: heh... thats usually not a problem
[18:41] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I have power/internet issues, maybe I can, it's dodgy at this stage
[18:41] <nubae> yeah u can run jhbuild
[18:41] <Ahmuck_> nubae: point me a link
[18:41] <LaserJock> nubae: we can get sugar packages for 9.04
[18:42] <asanchez> we have to buy over 80.000 computers per year and its very difficult to have support of the latest hardware
[18:42] <nubae> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Welcome_to_the_Sugar_Labs_wiki
[18:42] <LaserJock> asanchez: that's huge
[18:42] <asanchez> this is the main reason we turn back to Ubuntu as mother distribution for guadalinexedu
[18:42] <LaserJock> right
[18:42] <nubae> heh... finally a good decision
[18:42] <nubae> much easier to rely on an upstream community
[18:42] <asanchez> we have guadalinexedu based on 9.04 launched the same day as jaunty
[18:43] <nubae> donde estais actualmente asanchez?
[18:43] <Ahmuck_> LaserJock: can get or have?
[18:43] <Svenstaro> You guys gonna highlight the channel once the meeting starts?
[18:43] <nubae> there are currently no 0.84 ubuntu packages for sugar
[18:43] <LaserJock> Ahmuck_: I think we *can* and *should* get
[18:43] <nubae> only 0.82, which is quite a crappy release, doesn't do it justice
[18:43] <asanchez> nubae, physically you mean?
[18:44] <nubae> yeah
[18:44] <Ahmuck_> k, i'd like them.  i'd like to try and break them
[18:44] <Ahmuck_> if nubae will take the lead on getting the breakages fixed
[18:44] <LaserJock> Ahmuck_: all we need is people willing to work on the packages
[18:44] <nubae> well thats what this meeting is about kinda... at least for me
[18:44] <asanchez> nubae, we work at the Advanced Center for ICT Schools Management at Seville, Spain
[18:44] <nubae> but first I want the politics out the way
[18:45] <Ahmuck_> nubae: ur promoting it, i assume you either can or can find someone to patch it when i break it
[18:45] <nubae> ah... ok :-) cool... I know Sevilla vey well
[18:45] <LaserJock> Sevilla rocks!
[18:45] <nubae> Ahmuck_: I would sure hope so ;-)
[18:45] <LaserJock> nubae: I think we can get rid of politics
[18:45] <asanchez> nubae, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGA_(Advanced_Management_Centre)
[18:45] <Ahmuck_> heh, i can break anything, usually under 30 seconds
[18:45] <LaserJock> nubae: i.e. we get you a PPA and off you go
[18:46] <nubae> LaserJock: and it will be ok if I fill that PPA with opensuse Build service built .debs?
[18:46] <LaserJock> nubae: no
[18:46] <nubae> I really dont want to maintain 2 sets of packages
[18:46] <LaserJock> nubae: you need to upload source packages
[18:46] <nubae> then someone else needs to volunteer, I simply dont have the time to maintain 2 branches of the same product
[18:47] <LaserJock> ok
[18:47] <LaserJock> so we'll need to put a call out for that
[18:48] <nubae> Unless I'm being Is guadalinux its own iso, or an addoncd like edubuntu?
[18:48] <nubae> first part was not supposed to be in there
[18:48] <nubae> sohuld read: Is guadalinux its own iso, or an addoncd like edubuntu?
[18:49] <Timequeezer> hi guys
[18:49] <Svenstaro> hey
[18:49] <LaserJock> him Timequeezer
[18:50] <LaserJock> wow, we've got a lot of people here today
[18:50] <nubae> her LaserJock :p
[18:50] <asanchez> nubae, you can install it using a dvd addon, a cd addon or using guadalinex repository
[18:50] <nubae> so its an addon to ubuntu?
[18:50] <Svenstaro> Woah LaserJock, you are the brave man who pulled Edubuntu through the last few releases?
[18:50] <nubae> thats him
[18:50] <nubae> in the flesh
[18:50] <LaserJock> lol
[18:51] <Svenstaro> Please to meet you sir.
[18:51] <nubae> well... in the cyber flesh ;-)
[18:51] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: pleased to meet you as well
[18:51] <pygi> Svenstaro: he can be evil sometimes, so beware!
[18:51]  * nubae wonders if the 36 people on the channel is just a summer thing...
[18:52] <Svenstaro> I'm the annoying guy who writes mails to mailing lists and complains about documentation cosistency and stuff.
[18:52] <LaserJock> pygi: me?!
[18:52] <pygi> LaserJock: exactly :p
[18:52] <asanchez> nubae, yes its an addon (set of packages)
[18:53] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: nice to have you
[18:53] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, certainly so.
[18:53] <Svenstaro> I'm usually delighted about my own existence.
[18:53] <LaserJock> lol
[18:54] <nubae> asanchez: well, if u need help, physically on location, let me know
[18:54] <nubae> my mother lives in Marbella
[18:55] <bencrisford1> has the meeting started =S ?
[18:55] <Ahmuck_> in 5 min iirc
[18:55] <bencrisford1> ah ok
[18:58] <nubae> asanchez: u should really be using ltsp
[18:58] <davidgroos> Hmmm... do I have to do something on my end to 'join' the meeting or just kind of hang out here?
[18:58] <nubae> cluster-ltsp even with that many machines
[18:58] <nubae> hang and wait
[18:59] <davidgroos> Good!
[18:59] <nubae> then talk and complain :p
[18:59] <davidgroos> :-)
[18:59] <LaserJock> no complaining!
[18:59] <nubae> j/k
[18:59] <Svenstaro> WEeeeeee meeeeeting time :D
[19:00] <Svenstaro> So everybody knows what to do then, lets save Edubuntu.
[19:00] <Svenstaro> Somebody start it officially
[19:00] <LaserJock> ok
[19:00] <nestor> Hello, all, when does this start?
[19:00] <Svenstaro> now
[19:00] <bencrisford1> *drumroll*
[19:00] <LaserJock> [19:01] <LaserJock> ok, I'm going to chair the meeting
[19:01]  * Svenstaro is starting to look dangerously serious.
[19:01] <nubae> hmmmm theres no meeting bot in here is there
[19:01] <LaserJock> nope
[19:01]  * bencrisford1 will save the meeting
[19:01] <LaserJock> so, first off, thank you all for showing up
[19:01] <LaserJock> especially on such short notice
[19:01] <nubae> think this is a record turn out... 40 peoples
[19:02] <LaserJock> this is going to be a bit of an interesting meeting, having so many people and a lot to talk about
[19:02] <LaserJock> so I will try to keep thing moving and try to avoid getting bogged down, OK?
[19:02] <Svenstaro> Right
[19:02] <bencrisford1> sounds good
[19:03] <nestor> ok
[19:03] <LaserJock> 1st order of business, I'd like everybody to introduce themselves and a brief sentence on why you're here
[19:03] <bencrisford1> My name's Ben, desperate to contribute to hopefully marketing, bug triage/fix, development, artwork, and just however I can.
[19:04] <bencrisford1> :)
[19:04] <nestor> Hello, my name is Néstor, I've been using Edubuntu Hardy as a LTSP server in a Non-profit little organization. I love Free Software, and I have been using it for 10 years.
[19:04] <nestor> I also know C, C++, Qt, Python, Gtk, and have developed some applications, some of them for industrial use, always FLOSS
[19:05] <Timequeezer> My name is Matze. I just want to look, what you all will discuss ...
[19:05] <abruptus> the same applies to me
[19:05] <Svenstaro> Yo, after 18 years, my name is still Sven. I'm getting annoyed by the lack of direction in the Edubuntu project and I want to help out. I know how to make live media, can develop in C++/Python/Shell, know howt to do system administration and can do odd jobs in general. And yes, I'm actually eager to put my skills to good use.
[19:05] <abruptus> except the name
[19:06] <Lns> My name is Jordan, I own a company that enjoys deploying Ubuntu/LTSP and Edubuntu into non-profits and school systems in California, USA
[19:06] <LaserJock> my name is also Jordan and I've been an Ubuntu developer for 4 years and have been working on Edubuntu for about 3 years. I'm currently finishing off a PhD so I will sort of be out of the picture other than advice and guidance for the most part
[19:07] <asanchez> Hi, my name's Antonio Sanchez, we use an educational version of Ubuntu called GuadalinexEdu (http://www.guadalinexedu.org/guadalinexedu_science_menu.png) that is running in 225.000+ computers at the south of Spain (Andalusia) and we want to collaborate with edubuntu project
[19:07] <nestor> I'm also from Spain, from the North
[19:07] <asanchez> We have a 4-5 people working full time for this purpose
[19:07] <pygi> Hi, my name is Mario. I am upstream developer of certain system libs and various applications, mostly related to burning. I've done a lot of work on bootstraping the Edubuntu handbook project back in the early days of Edubutu. What do I want to do? We'll see :))))
[19:07] <Ahmuck_> My name is Dale.  I've been using Ubuntu LTSP, selected apps in a not for profit test lab for about 8 months.  I start local lugs and promote *ubuntu in my area.
[19:08] <davidgroos> Hi--My name is David.  I'm a science teacher, actually been teaching now for 20 years.  9 years ago I had the idea that students needed to have intimate access to computer technology.
[19:08] <LaserJock> anybody else?
[19:09] <alkisg> Hi, I'm Alkis, a teacher using Ubuntu with LTSP. Interested in edubuntu future.
[19:09] <jt4sugar> John Tierney-Educational Outreach Sugar Labs-interested in relationship to new Dell 2100 education netbook as well as plans for Sugar
[19:09] <davidgroos> I work in inner city schools here in Mpls and yes
[19:09] <davidgroos> open source is the platform on which I want to grow this project.
[19:10] <nubae> I have been involved with edubuntu for a while, but I am here to make sure we can coordinate whats happening with opensuse-edu with edubuntu, and look out for sugar upstream... That means I will not be able to work on edubuntu, unless things change whereby I would be convinced to move my work back to edubuntu
[19:10] <davidgroos> This project is part of the core of my phd work
[19:10] <Ahmuck_> davidgroos: mpls?
[19:10] <LaserJock> ok, so we do have an agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
[19:10] <davidgroos> Yes indeed!
[19:11] <LaserJock> I want to run through the items first
[19:11] <LaserJock> and then we can go to the general "now what question"
[19:11] <LaserJock> 1st item: Lns / nubae - Are they in Edubuntu-members yet?
[19:12] <LaserJock> the answer is no, but they should
[19:12]  * Lns cries
[19:12] <bencrisford1> I agree, they should be
[19:12] <LaserJock> in order to make members we need an Edubuntu Council
[19:12] <LaserJock> which we really don't have right now
[19:12] <bencrisford1> In my opinion
[19:12] <bencrisford1> they should be on that council
[19:12] <bencrisford1> so they can approve themselves? :P
[19:12] <nubae> lol
[19:12] <LaserJock> so reforming the EC will be of primary importance
[19:13] <nubae> well we've talked about this for months... actually I believe it was February
[19:13] <LaserJock> Action Item: LaserJock will send email to edubuntu-devel to figure out EC
[19:13] <nubae> the creation of a council
[19:13] <bencrisford1> I strongly think nubae and Lns should be on that council
[19:13] <LaserJock> my guess is that we might need to talk to the Community Council about it
[19:14] <nubae> stagnation is not a good thing, and thats whats been happening with edubuntu for months now, we cant get a council cause there is non... its a chicken and egg situ...
[19:14] <LaserJock> moving on
[19:14] <LaserJock> well, we'll talk to CC and figure out a process
[19:14] <nubae> ok
[19:14] <bencrisford1> sounds good
[19:15] <LaserJock> 2nd item: How to effectively advocate/market Edubuntu to schools/school districts
[19:15]  * bencrisford1 raises hand
[19:15] <bencrisford1> I had an idea about this
[19:15] <nubae> At this point though, put Lns up for membership, I dont believe I will have time to work on edubuntu
[19:16] <nestor> to market Edubuntu, I think that it's essential to tell students about Freedom
[19:16] <bencrisford1> There is an ubuntu-students team, of which I am a member of
[19:16] <bencrisford1> if they were to market edubuntu, or help
[19:16] <nestor> I think Freedom is the most important part of Edubuntu
[19:16] <Ahmuck_> can you market a product if you don't have a good idea what the product is.  has the future edubuntu product been defined?
[19:16] <bencrisford1> i agree
[19:16] <bencrisford1> but the students team IMO is a good idea
[19:16] <bencrisford1> if they were to work with us on marketing
[19:17] <bencrisford1> our target audience
[19:17] <bencrisford1> would be marketing it
[19:17] <bencrisford1> surely that would have a greatly benficial effect?
[19:17] <Ahmuck_> yes, are they our target audience?
[19:17] <bencrisford1> half of it
[19:17] <bencrisford1> well
[19:17] <bencrisford1> a fraction of it
[19:17] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: ok, would you like to send an email to edubuntu-devel outlining your idea?
[19:17] <bencrisford1> they are Middle school/high school
[19:17] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: Sure
[19:18] <davidgroos> That seems one of the first things to determine, things flow from one's market, no?
[19:18] <bencrisford1> I have already added that idea to the students whiteboard
[19:18] <LaserJock> I agree with Ahmuck_ that it's a bit hard to talk about marketing when we don't know the product or future yet ;-)
[19:18] <bencrisford1> of course thats true
[19:18] <davidgroos> chicken and egg...
[19:18] <bencrisford1> but we know the product is an educational version of ubuntu
[19:18] <bencrisford1> thats enough to go on to discuss it IMO
[19:18] <jt4sugar> Make sure Sugar is part of the package-keying on it's ability to foster collaboration-enhances the product
[19:18] <nestor> LaserJock, is it necessary to call it "a product"?
[19:19] <LaserJock> Action Item: bencrisford1 is to email edubuntu-devel with idea for working ubuntu-students team on marketing
[19:19] <LaserJock> nestor: not necessary no
[19:19] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: I am to e-mail?  or will you email?  im cofused =S
[19:19] <Lns> IMHO underneath the hood, Edubuntu is lots of things - but we could probably market the xdg menu addition of Applications -> Education and all of its related apps..? Seems like something people could understand..the little "Education" menu
[19:19] <nubae> sugar can't really be in edubuntu until there are 0.84 pacakges
[19:19] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: you will, it's your idea :-)
[19:19] <Ahmuck_> about product.  i've seen a lot of "edubuntu" tied with thin clients.  i'm beggining to think the project needs to be split.  a solid ltsp platform, a edubuntu-ltsp, and edubuntu
[19:19] <nubae> it may even require waiting for 0.86 (tbr August)
[19:20] <bencrisford1> Lns: I gyess it just is that right now
[19:20] <bencrisford1> but i didnt realise
[19:20] <bencrisford1> until now of course
[19:20] <bencrisford1> because
[19:20] <nestor> I think that we are missing one important point: in schools, usually, students are taught about not only technical aspects of the things, but also ethical
[19:20] <bencrisford1> marketing was always the problem
[19:20] <nubae> yeah my feelings are edubuntu needs to be a distro, not an addon... but thats just opinion
[19:20] <Ahmuck_> nestor, what would you call it?
[19:20] <bencrisford1> edubuntu? :P
[19:20] <LaserJock> well, "Edubuntu" right now is a tad more than just "the apps in the Education menu" but we'll get to that I guess
[19:20] <nestor> Ahmuck_, I would call it GNU/Linux distribution, but I think this is not really important
[19:21] <Lns> LaserJock, sure..but a lot of people might not understand the rest of it
[19:21] <asanchez> I think a very simple guide to implement an Edubuntu based classroom step by step whould be a good point, people like to see how things works and what can do with its
[19:21] <LaserJock> ok, we're starting to drift a little
[19:21] <Ahmuck_> sooo, who is edubuntu's target audience.  what has not worked?  why hasn't it worked.  how is it being used?
[19:21] <asanchez> we dont have this problem because our schools are encouraged to use free software by law
[19:21] <LaserJock> let's push marketing talk on to the mailing list for now and move on
[19:21] <bencrisford1> Yeah we dont have much time
[19:22] <nubae> also this has all been discussed before
[19:22] <nestor> asanchez, but that's where you live, here at the north of Spain, things are a little different
[19:22] <Ahmuck_> asanchez: our schools do to, the government subsides ms software and gives it to the schools for free
[19:22] <LaserJock> I want to make sure we've at least addressed all the item before be launch into the big topic
[19:22] <asanchez> Ahmuck_, :(
[19:22] <LaserJock> 3rd item: How teams will be structured in future.
[19:23] <LaserJock> sub-questions here are:
[19:23] <LaserJock> How we will tackle the huge number of disorganised/inactive launchpad teams?
[19:23] <LaserJock> Which teams (if any) will stay, which (if any) will go, and which (if any) will be created?
[19:23] <nubae> LaserJock: Sugarlabs is a team of about 50 people, but with a core of about 20... u should check out their team structure... its quite a nice layout to think about
[19:23] <nestor> I would focus Edubuntu into teaching students into Free Software principles, which implies writing articles and papers about this matter, and including it on the distro
[19:23] <LaserJock> we have core teams that I put in the strategy doc
[19:24] <bencrisford1> Oh =S
[19:24] <nubae> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Category:Team
[19:24] <bencrisford1> but the launchpad is still a problem
[19:24] <LaserJock> we have a lot of teams on Launchpad
[19:24] <nubae> Its worth taking a look at anyway
[19:24] <LaserJock> from the days when people got a little overly excited about creating teams
[19:24] <LaserJock> nubae: yes, thanks for the link
[19:24] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: I think many teams there are un-necessary, and many teams not there are....
[19:24] <LaserJock> so we need to look at:
[19:24] <Lns> if we get contact info for everyone associated with all teams we can nuke most of them probably and consolidate..?
[19:24] <LaserJock> 1) what teams are needed
[19:24] <nubae> teams dont mean one person per team, in many ways there are overlaps
[19:25] <nixternal> my name is Rich, and I am a nub
[19:25] <LaserJock> 2) what teams are dead or unused
[19:25] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: This is a complex problem, pehaps we should have a special meeting focused on teams?
[19:25] <nubae> launchpad has teams that are too similar
[19:25] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: it is complex
[19:25] <Lns> does anyone have a list of teams we're talking about?
[19:25] <LaserJock> we also have the complexity that we don't "own" most of the teams
[19:25] <LaserJock> it's not trivial to just delete teams
[19:25] <Ahmuck_> hi nixternal
[19:25] <nubae> and the owners are incomunicados
[19:26] <bencrisford1> I think all edubuntu (non-loco) should be approved by LaserJock himself, or the EC when it is created
[19:26] <LaserJock> I would like to propose that in the future that the Edubuntu Council own all Edubuntu teams
[19:26] <bencrisford1> I disagree
[19:26] <Ahmuck_> i would agree
[19:26] <bencrisford1> I think teams should have a clear and stated leader
[19:26] <davidgroos> hate to ask a dumb question but... doesn't a lot of this flow from Edubuntu mission statement?
[19:26] <nubae> LaserJock: we are repeating ourselves from last meeting, we should move to new stuff
[19:26] <bencrisford1> but the EC have admin rights
[19:26] <Lns> There's no way to go over the teams' heads to remove them if they're inactive?
[19:26] <bencrisford1> Yeah
[19:26] <Ahmuck_> outside of locals, centralized managment of teams is ideal
[19:26] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: own is not the same as admin
[19:26] <bencrisford1> I know
[19:26] <bencrisford1> but thats how i think it should work
[19:26] <LaserJock> the EC needs to own the teams
[19:26] <Ahmuck_> er, loco's
[19:27] <bencrisford1> ah i see
[19:27] <bencrisford1> perhaps
[19:27] <bencrisford1> locos dont matter
[19:27] <LaserJock> because if the owner is missing then we're in trouble
[19:27] <bencrisford1> there shouldnt be restriction of locos
[19:27] <LaserJock> anyway, nubae's right, we've been over it
[19:27] <bencrisford1> yeah
[19:27] <bencrisford1> well
[19:27] <bencrisford1> i wouldnt know
[19:27] <LaserJock> so we'll push that to the mailing list for followup
[19:27] <LaserJock> who wants to lead the push on team cleanup?
[19:27] <bencrisford1> ill help out where i can
[19:28] <nubae> u have to do that
[19:28] <Lns> if anyone has a list of teams i could look into how to it...
[19:28] <nubae> u are the only one with the authority
[19:28] <LaserJock> well
[19:28] <nubae> Lns search edubuntu on launchpad
[19:28] <nubae> should show the teams
[19:28] <Lns> all of em? ok
[19:29] <LaserJock> ok
[19:29] <LaserJock> well
[19:29] <LaserJock> I'll take this one
[19:29] <LaserJock> just to get the ball rolling here
[19:29] <bencrisford1> I would suggest: To organise this we could have a wiki page with a list of teams, and people post the list of teams that they think should be there
[19:29] <LaserJock> what I'm hoping for is for people to take tasks here so a single person only has 1 or 2 things they're doing
[19:29] <bencrisford1> then we can create a generalised opinion
[19:29] <bencrisford1> and use that
[19:29] <Ahmuck_> honestly, LJ, ur dissertation is of primary concern
[19:29] <LaserJock> I know
[19:30] <Ahmuck_> Lns has agreed to do team cleanup
[19:30] <LaserJock> so I can only take 1 or 2 things
[19:30] <LaserJock> ok, fine ;-)
[19:30] <Lns> =p
[19:30] <Ahmuck_> next
[19:30] <LaserJock> Action item: Lns will spearhead the team cleanup process
[19:30] <LaserJock> Lns: we can talk details later, OK?
[19:30]  * Lns nods
[19:31] <LaserJock> 4th item: Attracting developers/contributors to the edubuntu project.
[19:31] <LaserJock> At the moment working on an 'education edition' just "isn't cool...", how can we market it more effectively to developers?
[19:31] <nubae> actually, its becoming cool with projects like sugar and edubuntu, opensuse-edu
[19:32] <Ahmuck_> developers need to have an interest in what they are doing, or are getting paid.  this has been my observation in oss and proprietary software
[19:32] <Svenstaro> A couple of demonstration videos would do the trick.
[19:32] <Ahmuck_> nubae loves sugar because he believes in it and is involved
[19:32] <bencrisford1> I think we should again involve the ubuntu-students, but not the team, I mean just the young ubuntu users
[19:32] <Ahmuck_> what part of edubuntu is "not cool"
[19:33] <LaserJock> work
[19:33] <bencrisford1> i added that
[19:33] <nubae> tru dat.... I have a job that pays me and then I have my real job... sugar
[19:33] <bencrisford1> but i dont think it "isnt cool"
[19:33] <asanchez> I think specific objetives (new applications, new classroom services) can motivate people to attract their job
[19:33] <bencrisford1> i just think that people think that
[19:33] <LaserJock> educationally stuff is generally not a cool for the hacker types that do a lot of development in Ubuntu
[19:33] <bencrisford1> yeah
[19:33] <bencrisford1> and people who are busy
[19:34] <LaserJock> generally I've seen more upstream projects like Sugar, KDE Edu, etc. interested
[19:34] <bencrisford1> busy developer + educational thingymibobby
[19:34] <Svenstaro> The documentation is pretty distracting too, it should be rather centralized.
[19:34] <LaserJock> but they lack the packaging experience
[19:34] <asanchez> We have over 500.000 students using ubuntu educational, any kind of simple programing contest can motivate students to collaborate with the project
[19:34] <Svenstaro> There are so many sources of *different* information.
[19:34] <nestor> I would separate the groups into groups devoted to technical concerns, and others devoted to educative concerns.
[19:34] <nestor> *educational, sorry
[19:34] <Svenstaro> Lets have the ONE wiki to rule them all.
[19:34] <davidgroos> How about conncetions with people who are researchers in universities and working on education stuff?
[19:34] <Ahmuck_> nestor: exactly
[19:34] <bencrisford1> I think we should target the young people more
[19:34] <jt4sugar> Sponsor semester of code projects at Universities
[19:34] <bencrisford1> this is for them
[19:34] <LaserJock> well, there are lots of ideas here
[19:34] <Ahmuck_> which goes back to teams.  core teams.  build the foundation first and then move on
[19:34] <pygi> davidgroos: I work on education-related research, yet I'm still a student
[19:34] <bencrisford1> edubuntu is for young people, so why cant they make it themselves?
[19:35] <Ahmuck_> er up the laddre
[19:35]  * Lns likes bencrisford1's idea
[19:35] <Svenstaro> Also, there should be videos targetted for a specific use case, for example setting up a computer lab.
[19:35] <nestor> Svenstaro, that's very good indeed.
[19:35] <Ahmuck_> Svenstaro: i can prolly help with that
[19:35] <asanchez> i think like nestor that its importan to separate educational purposes of technical ones
[19:35] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: well, frankly they're pretty unreliable and there are issues
[19:35] <LaserJock> right
[19:35] <nestor> I would include some material for school and university: free school books, free university books...
[19:36] <nestor> (think about Wikibooks)
[19:36] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: I am a young ubuntu user and I am yet to be called unreliable
[19:36] <Svenstaro> Might I show you my diagram that I prepared for today.
[19:36] <LaserJock> generally it's the exception to the rule
[19:36] <nestor> I think young people likes Freedom more than we do.
[19:36] <Svenstaro> http://88.198.54.112/pub/svens_stuff/Edubuntu.png
[19:37] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: nice
[19:37] <Ahmuck_> Svenstaro: hah, i created something similar :)
[19:37] <bencrisford1> Svenstaro: Thats nice work :)
[19:37] <Svenstaro> Ahmuck_, well, does it match up?
[19:37] <asanchez> I think students can develop very interesting educational apps themselves
[19:37] <Svenstaro> Thanks people, and how do you like the contents of it?
[19:37] <stavrosLinux> my 10 cents_ maybe its time to move to DVD and include ubuntu-edubuntu-kubuntu
[19:37] <davidgroos> Svenstaro: I like it.
[19:37] <LaserJock> ok, we're getting off on a tangent again
[19:37] <Ahmuck_> it's similar, mine is more focused on what apps work in edubuntu
[19:37]  * LaserJock hauls in the reigns
[19:38] <nestor> asanchez, I know the work that people is doing at Extremadura, I think it would be nice to hear from your experience with young and not so young students
[19:38] <LaserJock> let's start a thread on edubuntu-devel about how to get more devs
[19:38] <jt4sugar> A series of get-to-know video segments 5min a piece that walk non-technical folk through process would be super helpful especially if you want teachers
[19:38] <LaserJock> who wants to start that off?
[19:39] <asanchez> some of the schools management tools are being iniciated by students in Andalusia
[19:39] <bencrisford1> nestor: How about hearing my experience as a young student? :P
[19:39] <nestor> bencrisford1, nice :-D go on
[19:39] <Svenstaro> stavrosLinux, agreed.
[19:39] <pygi> LaserJock: the point is to get reliable developers I assume, not just pump up the numbers
[19:39] <bencrisford1> Not much for me to say realy I was kind of joking :P, my school uses windows and mac
[19:39] <bencrisford1> im trying to convert it
[19:39] <LaserJock> pygi: yes, indeed
[19:40] <bencrisford1> but at the moment there isnt any high-profile education distros
[19:40] <bencrisford1> that we hear of down where i live anyway
[19:40] <Svenstaro> jt4sugar, exactly.
[19:40] <pygi> LaserJock: we can't get that over-night then I'm afraid
[19:40] <pygi> LaserJock: have I already asked you if you'll be at UDS?
[19:40] <LaserJock> pygi: no, I won't be
[19:40] <Ahmuck_> to get more devs u match them with projects that are within their skillset as they volunteer.  if your not sure what the projects are, how can you match them
[19:40] <pygi> aww ... ok, I have some discussion scheduled with highvoltage so we'll see what comes out of that :)
[19:41] <asanchez> bencrisford1, take a look at www.guadalinexedu.org, I think can merge with edubuntu project and its a higly used educational distribution
[19:41] <LaserJock> ok, so who's going to start the dev conversation on the mailing-list?
[19:41] <nestor> I think Edubuntu is very important, since it's the first contact with Free Software with many people, used to privative software
[19:41] <pygi> LaserJock: I will
[19:41] <bencrisford1> asanchez: Will do :)
[19:41] <pygi> but first a suggestion, if we have the resources to do it
[19:41] <bencrisford1> Before we move on, I have one last idea
[19:41] <nestor> asanchez, nice suggestion
[19:41] <bencrisford1> how about contacting some of the teaches for the ubuntu-learning project
[19:41] <LaserJock> Action item: pygi to start thread on edubuntu-devel about building the developer community
[19:42] <bencrisford1> in the development section
[19:42] <bencrisford1> they would help
[19:42] <LaserJock> ok, one sec
[19:42] <pygi> people would feel much more welcomed in the community if we could assign each potential new contributor (with certain limits of course) a mentor
[19:42] <asanchez> I have to take a train in few minutes, nice to meet you every people, i'll read logs later.
[19:42] <bencrisford1> good thinking pygi
[19:42] <LaserJock> asanchez: thanks for coming
[19:42] <jt4sugar> Think about building developers from scratch-by doing so you'll have mapped and video segmented the whole process(Now you have a process any University can deploy)
[19:43] <alkisg> Does anyone share my opinion that edubuntu, being just a selection of apps, has almost nothing to do with upstream development?
[19:43] <pygi> LaserJock: there's a number of oldies here that might be willing to act as mentors in various areas
[19:43] <LaserJock> pygi: right, but right now we essentially have 0 devs so mentoring is .... an issue
[19:43] <Ahmuck_> pygi: similar to gsoc ?
[19:43] <pygi> Ahmuck_: similarly, yes
[19:43] <pygi> LaserJock: I know at least three devs willing to do that (I think)
[19:43] <Ahmuck_> *sigh* ... i suggested this a couple of days ago
[19:43] <LaserJock> pygi: ok, so let's talk about that on the thread
[19:43] <pygi> LaserJock: you, highvoltage (don't shoot me :P) and me (if I'm coming back)
[19:43] <pygi> sure
[19:44] <LaserJock> Ahmuck_: I thought you were  just saying we should get GSoC students, which isn't an option
[19:44] <Svenstaro> alkisg, pretty much.
[19:44] <alkisg> If it was a distro, some devs could be attracted.
[19:44] <LaserJock> alkisg: largely yes, Edubuntu should *not* be an upstream development team where possible
[19:44] <nestor> alkisg, maybe you're right: the kind of things that Edubuntu needs are mainly educational ones: Free Books, for example, and links to Free Information pages
[19:44] <bencrisford1> We could collaborate with ubuntu-learning perhaps?
[19:45] <LaserJock> ok, but we're wandering. let's hit the last item real quick before we get there
[19:45] <pygi> nestor: writing a book takes a non-trivial amount of time
[19:45] <LaserJock> Intro: Ubuntu Community Learning Project - different goals/ideals, but projects should know about each other (pleia2)
[19:45] <LaserJock> pleia2: you're on
[19:45] <alkisg> That's what I'd like edubuntu to be: a distro collecting all the good *existing* stuff a teacher needs, with as little developing as possible.
[19:45] <nestor> pygi, yes, surely, but there's plenty of Free Books that you can include on the distro, just finding them on the Internet
[19:45] <LaserJock> alkisg: ok, but by "developers" I'm meaning distro developers
[19:45] <pygi> nestor: most of them not suited to schools
[19:45] <LaserJock> just to be clear
[19:46] <alkisg> LaserJock: you mean packagers? I thought you meant programmers..
[19:46] <pleia2> hi everyone, I just wanted to drop by from the Ubuntu Learning project :)
[19:46] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
[19:46] <LaserJock> alkisg: yes, packagers and maintainers
[19:46] <LaserJock> alkisg: we call them devs
[19:46] <alkisg> Ah, ok, I misunderstood then.
[19:46] <LaserJock> np
[19:46] <Lns> hi pleia2 =)
[19:46] <pleia2> you may recall Belinda Lopez briefly introduced us here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2009-April/002869.html
[19:47] <pleia2> so I just wanted to reach out and say hi, and that we're willing to help out edubuntu if you can think of ways that our resources can be helpful
[19:47] <nestor> pygi, surely, but think about wikipedia: it has many many simple articles in many languages. I don't usually look for books for children, but there's plenty of material: a filter for Fifefox for safe navigation, for example
[19:47] <pleia2> we have different goals, but we're all in education
[19:47] <LaserJock> pleia2: so do you think we could get access to the moodle installation?
[19:47] <LaserJock> for instance
[19:47] <pleia2> LaserJock: absolutely
[19:47] <pleia2> LaserJock: the moodle server was just launched last week so we're still getting specifics sorted out, but we want to make it as open to the community as possible
[19:48] <bencrisford2> (I apoligise for my internet, and apoligise in advance in case it goes again)
[19:48] <LaserJock> pleia2: ok, cool
[19:48] <pleia2> right now it's up at http://learn.ufbt.net/
[19:48] <LaserJock> does anybody from the  Learning project pay any attention to edubuntu-devel?
[19:49] <LaserJock> it would be good to have some sort of liaison that keeps up with what's going on in both teams
[19:49] <pleia2> I am not sure anyone does at the moment, but I'll probably end up hopping on it
[19:49] <pleia2> we don't have our lists.ubuntu.com email list yet, unfortunately
[19:49] <pleia2> edubuntu-devel - what else would you suggest I join?
[19:49] <bencrisford2> LaserJock: I am planning to get involved in the learning project
[19:49] <bencrisford2> so hopefully I could help out with that too
[19:50] <nestor> how many people agree that it whould be good to separate technical development with educational one? (the application itself versus it's information)
[19:50] <nubae> alkisg: I share your opinion
[19:50] <LaserJock> pleia2: that'd probably due for now
[19:50] <pleia2> LaserJock: ok :)
[19:50] <Svenstaro> nestor, elaborate with example please.
[19:50] <nestor> Svenstaro, ok
[19:50] <LaserJock> nestor: let's wait on that for a minute
[19:50] <nubae> but I'm not ready to do a fork... I would, however, consider trying to use susestudio to make custom isos
[19:50] <nestor> look at the example: I have tried to get my mother, who's a teacher, into Wikipedia
[19:51] <nestor> but it's not possible, since she has very little knowledge of how Wikipedia works
[19:51] <nubae> should be possible to make customised edubuntu isos via that route
[19:51] <nubae> or at least make usb edubuntu
[19:51] <pleia2> anyway, I don't have any firm ideas about how we can all work together, but I wanted to open the door
[19:51] <nestor> oh, sorrty
[19:51] <LaserJock> bencrisford2: would you like to look into the Learning team and see what kinds of things might apply to Edubuntu?
[19:51] <nubae> which imho is really really necessary to show off what edubuntu cando/is
[19:51] <bencrisford2> LaserJock: sure
[19:51] <nubae> We should not be afraid to work together with other edu teams of other distros
[19:52] <nubae> just cause this is buntu centric doesnt mean we can't use other tools to make life easier for us
[19:52] <LaserJock> Action item: bencrisford2 to look into collaboration opportunities with the Ubuntu Learning project
[19:52] <Lns> nubae +1
[19:52] <bencrisford2> LaserJock: I beter write that down! :P
[19:52] <din_os> +2
[19:52] <LaserJock> bencrisford2: yes
[19:52] <nubae> how does it work with comercial .debs... ie the ones that dont carry source?
[19:52] <LaserJock> ;-)
[19:53] <cbx33> peek
[19:53] <nubae> where dot hey live LaserJock?
[19:53] <LaserJock> nubae: what do you mean?
[19:54] <nubae> where would one store packages with only release code and no src code?
[19:54] <LaserJock> well, you still need a source package and that would go to Multiverse
[19:54] <nubae> from opensusebuild service stance this is not because we dont want to release source, but rather it can't do that right now
[19:55] <LaserJock> right
[19:55] <nubae> are there no comercial closed source packages installable?
[19:55] <LaserJock> yes
[19:55] <LaserJock> but the binary is still in a "source package"
[19:55] <nubae> and what about distributing the source as a tarball?
[19:55] <nubae> and not as src deb
[19:55] <Svenstaro> We can build our own iso building system if need to be.
[19:55] <nubae> that seems kind of silly seeing as those tools already exist
[19:55] <LaserJock> well, the source package has a tarball
[19:56] <Ahmuck_> meeting over?
[19:56] <nubae> I'm looking at a way to couple this stuff laterally
[19:56] <LaserJock> we have good tools for building packages and for building .isos
[19:56] <LaserJock> that's not really a problem here
[19:56] <bencrisford2> is there an irc log for this channel?
[19:56] <bencrisford2> I was hoping to save the meeting
[19:56] <annma> I missed the beginning of th emeeting
[19:56] <LaserJock> the problem has always every been that we need more hands doing the work
[19:56] <cbx33> buiklding an iso build system is non-trivial
[19:56] <nubae> I dont know of any tool like susestudio for ubuntu or build service (its gpl btw)
[19:56] <annma> is there some update on Canonical views about Edubuntu?
[19:56] <Ahmuck_> bencrisford yes
[19:57] <cbx33> building a one off iso is hard enough
[19:57] <nubae> oh? there is?
[19:57] <LaserJock> annma: basically they don't care much what we do, but no official statement
[19:57] <nubae> so what is it then?
[19:57] <bencrisford2> LaserJock: I think at one point somewhere I suggested appointing a designated canonical liason
[19:57] <cbx33> LaserJock: you think if the need was there Canonical would allow us to use the build tools?
[19:57] <nubae> so they reallly dont care tehn
[19:57] <bencrisford2> like a canonical employee
[19:57] <LaserJock> ok, hang on guys just a sec
[19:57] <bencrisford2> to carry our thoughts to them and vice versa
[19:57] <nubae> what happened to RichEd=
[19:57] <nubae> ?
[19:57] <LaserJock> nubae: he left
[19:57] <Svenstaro> cbx33, well, all you do is script your local building suite using php / python, not too hard actually. You just have to make sure it doesn't get abused.
[19:57] <nubae> really?
[19:57] <nubae> !
[19:57] <nubae> =?
[19:57] <LaserJock> nubae: yes
[19:57] <nubae> oh wow, I didnt know that
[19:58] <cbx33> LaserJock: go on
[19:58] <nubae> so the education part of ubuntu is really dead then
[19:58]  * cbx33 can tell he was collecting thoughts
[19:58] <Ahmuck_> meeting over ?
[19:58] <nubae> from the support stance
[19:58] <nubae> not community
[19:58] <LaserJock> well
[19:58] <pygi> nubae: why do you think it worked when he was around?
[19:58] <LaserJock> I think Canonnical still sells support for Edubuntu
[19:58] <LaserJock> but I don't think Canonical will be paying for Edubuntu developers or staff
[19:58] <nubae> no I dont think he did a particularly well job, but then thats just opinion
[19:58] <LaserJock> *however*
[19:58] <nubae> which I should probably keep to myself
[19:58] <Ahmuck_> LaserJock: i'd be afraid to sell support for something i didn't know if it worked or not.  so if i buy support, they will get issues fixed?
[19:59] <LaserJock> ok, don't take this the wrong way but everybody please be quiet for a second
[19:59] <pygi> I think Edubuntu was at its best with ogra as paid dev, and Jane as a serious cheering lady :)
[19:59] <nubae> right now I think canonical is just gonna wait and see what happens to the netbook market
[19:59] <nubae> thats y ogra is on that side of the fence
[19:59] <LaserJock> Canonical has essentially decided to pull out development resources for Edubuntu
[19:59] <Ahmuck_> then to get dev support, i need to buy support.  get a community donate button to buy 1 instance of support and pound the h* out of the current ubuntu-ltsp/edubuntu and get the issues fixed ?
[20:00] <cbx33> shhh everyone
[20:00] <LaserJock> but Edubuntu still has a lot of support from Canonical
[20:00] <nubae> LaserJock: come on... how can u say that?
[20:00] <LaserJock> right now we still have ISO builders
[20:00] <LaserJock> we have hosting
[20:00] <nubae> there isn't even a canonical person present
[20:00] <LaserJock> we have edubuntu.org
[20:00] <nubae> ok, thats about it
[20:00] <nubae> we dont even have mirrors anymore
[20:00] <nestor> I leave, back in a minute, I hope
[20:00] <LaserJock> we have all the Launchpad infrastructure, etc.
[20:00] <Ahmuck_> and administrative overhead
[20:00] <LaserJock> so
[20:00] <cbx33> please people....let LaserJock speak
[20:01] <nubae> I think saying we have 'a lot of support' is a misleading statement
[20:01] <nubae> some support ok
[20:01] <LaserJock> well, the computing power they let us have is pretty expensive
[20:01] <LaserJock> and hosting
[20:01] <LaserJock> several hundred dollars a month I'd guess
[20:01] <nubae> sigh
[20:01] <nubae> not really
[20:01] <LaserJock> but whatever, I'm not here to defend Canonical or anything
[20:02] <LaserJock> I'm just saying we already have Ubuntu infrastructure at our disposal
[20:02] <LaserJock> so we shouldn't really worry about that part
[20:02] <nubae> hosting with the traffic we see on edubuntu is probably about 50€ a year
[20:02] <LaserJock> edubuntu.org isn't expensive
[20:02] <LaserJock> but there's quite a bit of other stuff
[20:03] <LaserJock> but again, that's not the issue here
[20:03] <nubae> right
[20:03] <nubae> so what else is there?
[20:03] <nixternal> LaserJock: UDS?
[20:03] <Ahmuck_> sooo, i'm not sure (after all has been said and done in the meeting) where edubuntu is going.
[20:03] <LaserJock> I'm just saying that Edubuntu is a part of Ubuntu and Ubuntu has quite nice infrastructure
[20:03] <jt4sugar> Would Canonical support a ESoC-Edubuntu Semester of Code at Universities? Good PR for them-University students need to know more about Open source
[20:03] <LaserJock> so let's not go reinventing the wheel
[20:03] <LaserJock> jt4sugar: doubt it
[20:03] <Lns> Why do we even care so much about canonical?
[20:03] <LaserJock> right
[20:03] <nubae> Lns: agreed
[20:03] <LaserJock> so there's good an bad here
[20:03] <nubae> we shouldnt care
[20:04] <LaserJock> on one hand we're not getting a paid dev, etc.
[20:04] <Svenstaro> Well now that all the overhead stuff is talked about, can we actually worry about Edubuntu itself in a technical way?
[20:04] <Svenstaro> We haven't talked about docs at all, for example.
[20:04] <nubae> If someone decides to release an edubuntu usb/cd/dvd, will the edubuntu community support it?
[20:04] <LaserJock> on the other hand, Canonical seems quite willing to let us build Edubuntu into whatever we want
[20:04] <nubae> thats my question
[20:04] <Lns> LaserJock, that's def. a good thing i think. let the community take control
[20:05] <Ahmuck_> Lns, how.  through approval of people for this and that?
[20:05] <nubae> alkisg: I believe u want to know the same thing right?
[20:05] <LaserJock> ok, I think in order for Edubuntu to support something fully it needs to be done within Ubuntu infrastructure
[20:05] <cbx33> Lns: good in theory
[20:05] <nubae> if we create it, will you support it?
[20:05] <cbx33> LaserJock: I totally agree here
[20:05] <cbx33> and if I may put in a few thoughts
[20:05] <alkisg> nubae: yes, and I'm sure that canonical won't :(
[20:05] <LaserJock> however, I could see having some unofficial builds for testing and proof-of-concept
[20:05] <cbx33> one of the problems we had before was that Canonical controlled everything
[20:05] <cbx33> in a sense
[20:06] <nubae> well usb sticks are totally taking off as a method of distributing edu distros
[20:06] <bencrisford2> (can someone please link me to the channel log?)
[20:06] <cbx33> we sometimes begged to have more of a helping hand so that we could help out Ogra
[20:06] <Lns> well yeah - we have no official community structure here. we need a council, etc.
[20:06] <nubae> its working very well here in Germany and Austria for schools
[20:06] <LaserJock> but they must be plaining seen as unofficial builds I think or else we've just going to split apart and end in a disaster
[20:06] <cbx33> Now we have the opportunity
[20:06] <cbx33> to train up people
[20:06] <cbx33> to use the awesome build system that canonical has
[20:06] <nubae> please clarify that LaserJock....
[20:06] <cbx33> if they are willing to let us use it
[20:06] <alkisg> I didn't want to interfere, but the meeting will be over soon and I'd like to put this question *explicitly* on the table: Do people here want edubuntu to continue being a selection of applications, or do they want it to become a distro again? And if so, are they willing to contribute to make it happen?
[20:06] <LaserJock> nubae: having say 5-10 different "Edubuntus" will be way confusing
[20:07] <pygi> nubae: he said there must be planning around unofficial builds
[20:07] <nubae> I'm talkign about 1 full distro dvd or usb stick
[20:07] <cbx33> alkisg: I for one think it works as a distro
[20:07] <Svenstaro> alkisg, I definitely want it to be a distro else I wouldn't want to contribute.
[20:07] <cbx33> it worked well as before
[20:07] <LaserJock> we need to be able to clearly say "this is Edubuntu"
[20:07] <nubae> it would include ltsp, sugar, and maybe 100 universe and multiverse edu apps
[20:07] <Ahmuck_> if it's a distro, is it a school system?
[20:07]  * alkisg also votes for a distro in a live dvd
[20:07] <LaserJock> ok
[20:07] <nubae> as well as education theme, splashscreen, icon set, etc
[20:07] <Ahmuck_> or just ubuntu with a few apps?
[20:08] <cbx33> when canonical broke it off, we lost our End product
[20:08] <LaserJock> let's back out for a second
[20:08] <LaserJock> please
[20:08] <Lns> question - can it be an addon AND a psuedo-distro (such as a live-cd: Ubuntu live, with Edubuntu add-on integrated) ?
[20:08] <Svenstaro> Ahmuck_, it will be a multi-system, hopefull.y
[20:08] <cbx33> it was something for the community to work towards
[20:08] <cbx33> lns of course
[20:08] <pygi> PEOPLE!
[20:08] <nubae> Lns: thats not a bad idea
[20:08] <pygi> we're going nowhere, please STOP!
[20:08] <cbx33> it was essentiall a meta-package
[20:08] <LaserJock> let's not squabble of how we deliver stuff right now
[20:08] <nubae> so we have the ubuntu cd in its normal format, but it launches the addon when inserted
[20:08] <cbx33> agreed
[20:09] <LaserJock> I think everybody is pretty much in agreement that we want to deliver Edubuntu in the best way possible
[20:09] <pygi> To deliver things, we need development development development
[20:09] <nubae> and then we can install all the extra components by choice as addon products
[20:09] <pygi> and we don't have the resources to do it
[20:09] <pygi> (right now)
[20:09] <nubae> pygi: there are 43 people in here
[20:09] <pygi> nubae: you are mistaken
[20:09] <nubae> opensuse-edu does it with a community of about 8
[20:09] <Lns> who can silence? =p
[20:09] <pygi> nubae: experience tells me that a lot of people talk, yet few deliver
[20:09] <nubae> right
[20:10] <LaserJock> it takes a lot of effort to maintain a distro up to Ubuntu standards
[20:10] <nubae> but if u dont have a little faith right now, what's the point in even having this meeting?
[20:10] <LaserJock> well, the point is to organize effort I think
[20:10] <LaserJock> but we need to be realistic
[20:10] <Lns> LaserJock, what's the question on the table right now?
[20:10] <pygi> exactly. cbx33, willing to mentor a Edubuntu student? :)
[20:10] <nubae> I'll clarify my position, and it seems alkisg feels the same... if edubuntu is just about fixing bugs in officially supported edu apps by canonical, I have no interest in it
[20:10] <LaserJock> Canonical had 1 full time employee working on Edubuntu and he had a hard time making it all work as a distro
[20:11] <LaserJock> nubae: neither do I
[20:11] <LaserJock> nubae: nobody disagrees with that
[20:11] <alkisg> I totally agree with nubae. And also some people here said that they're going to make a live distro for themselves if edubuntu isn't going to be one, so I suspect there are people that can work on that.
[20:11] <LaserJock> but the practicality of things are that it's not trivial to just pop out a distro of good quality
[20:11] <Lns> We obviously still need people that work on that stuff. Both can be a part of edubuntu.
[20:11] <LaserJock> so we'll need to work up to that
[20:11] <davidgroos> gotta leave--this has been educational--look forward to following the resulting threads on the list.
[20:12] <Svenstaro> nubae, I concur
[20:12] <LaserJock> right now we could build a DVD and send it out there but it'd be crap
[20:12] <Lns> thx davidgroos
[20:12] <LaserJock> so I think the first order of business is getting the software we ship in order
[20:12] <nubae> LaserJock: I'm pretty sure I'm capabale of some of this stuff so thats y I'm asking
[20:12] <LaserJock> and then we can work on how to ship it the best
[20:12] <LaserJock> nubae: sure, I think we can get it done at some point
[20:12] <nubae> if I for example, along with svenstaro and alkisg choose to go down the route of creating a live dvd/usb stick... will the communtiy support us?
[20:13] <nubae> or do we choose a different name and fork?
[20:13] <LaserJock> bah
[20:13] <LaserJock> I think that's the wrong way to look at it
[20:13] <nubae> LaserJock: we need a clear answer
[20:13] <LaserJock> it's not about Edubuntu "blessing" somebodies work
[20:13] <pygi> nubae: clear answer from my POV is - there are more priority issues then live dvd/usb stick
[20:13] <nubae> yes it is... its abotu being able to mention it in documentation, in marketing on the website, in distribution
[20:14] <LaserJock> but the point is
[20:14] <nubae> LaserJock: is that your stance too?
[20:14] <LaserJock> it should be Edubuntu's DVD/USB disk
[20:14] <LaserJock> not about Edubuntu "blessing" somebody else's work
[20:14] <nubae> nobody is talking about blessing anything
[20:14] <nubae> we're talkign about using the edubuntu resources
[20:14] <Svenstaro> Can we talk about refactoring the docs at some point in this meeting? I think its a major point :/
[20:15] <LaserJock> so I think you should certainly pursue the possibility of doing a Live DVD or USB stick
[20:15] <LaserJock> I think a USB image would be pretty sweet
[20:15] <nubae> stop for a second and just give a clear answer yes, or no
[20:15] <LaserJock> I would say yes, pursue it within Ubuntu's infrastructure
[20:15] <nubae> sorry to sound so hard, but I want to know where to put my efforts
[20:16] <nubae> ok, cool
[20:16] <Lns> nubae, i'd support it. If you, as part of the Edubuntu community, want to take the initiative and coordinate with others to create it, I dont think anybody would NOT support it, as long as it aligns with the other members' goals and projects within the community
[20:16] <LaserJock> perhaps we can get the existing .iso replaced
[20:16] <LaserJock> so we don't use up too much disk space
[20:16] <LaserJock> I don't know
[20:16] <Ahmuck_> well, i'm still confused where edubuntu i heading.  i'm confused on what it intends to be.  i've got to go.  Svenstaro i'm interested in docs.  i'll hang around in the channel throughout the year and try to hammer out issues as they come up.  i've got to go for now.
[20:16] <nubae> good, well it would be an image that could be written to whatever medium
[20:16] <alkisg> If edubuntu is going back to being a distro, I'm also willing to help.
[20:17] <LaserJock> I'm just not sure if it's going to work out
[20:17] <Lns> i think "distro" might be the wrong word though
[20:17] <nubae> probably set up in chunks, it needs to be studied, but the technical parts are perfectably doable by many on this channel
[20:17] <alkisg> LaserJock: I don't think it's working out _now_. People are leaving the ship.
[20:17] <LaserJock> I know
[20:17] <nubae> distro is a marketing term Lns
[20:17] <Lns> do we want ourselves to be seen as "different than" ubuntu?
[20:17] <nubae> I know technically its not that
[20:17] <nubae> but marketing wise, we want to be known as a distro
[20:17] <nubae> or we loose a hell of a lot of steam
[20:18] <LaserJock> well, the technical issue is if we fork off Ubuntu
[20:18] <nubae> for example, studio, xubuntu and kubuntu are all known as distros
[20:18] <alkisg> Edubuntu == ubuntu with all the good educational stuff we can find.
[20:18] <nubae> edu is the only one that is different
[20:18] <nubae> right!
[20:18] <Lns> ok... /me thinks 'distro' is bad marketing for sub-distros of ubuntu, but that's just mho
[20:18] <nubae> qutie simple explanation that everyone will understand
[20:18] <LaserJock> alkisg: right, but that means we also have to maintain "our" ubuntu
[20:18] <alkisg> LaserJock: that's why I'm here
[20:18] <nubae> we have to do that right now too LaserJock
[20:18] <LaserJock> no
[20:18] <nubae> there is no difference
[20:18] <alkisg> (I mean I'm willing to work on that)
[20:19] <LaserJock> we don't
[20:19] <LaserJock> right now we don't have to do anything wrt Ubuntu
[20:19] <kjcole> Anyone here going to NECC (National Educational Computing Conference) here in DC, June 28 - July 1?
[20:19] <LaserJock> it's just "magic"
[20:19] <nubae> I just dont see the big difference technically
[20:19] <nubae> but marketing wise its massive
[20:19] <LaserJock> instead, we'll have to sync seeds
[20:19] <LaserJock> and do a *whole* lot more testing
[20:19] <alkisg> LaserJock: if we could, it would be nice to have a karmic release (=really beta), so that we gather experience for an LTS after that.
[20:19] <nubae> well there are lots of people here for that
[20:19] <Lns> nubae, marketing a "distro" to people is bad marketing imho anyway. people don't know what linux is most times in education, let alone a specific linux 'distro'
[20:20] <nubae> right, we'd want to maintain just a LTS
[20:20] <nubae> so we can work on it for years to come
[20:20] <alkisg> Because our resources aren't really vast, so it'll mainly be LTS releases.
[20:20] <LaserJock> we'll have bootsplash maintenance, installer maintenance, kernel issues, etc.
[20:20] <Svenstaro> Can we make a summary of points we talked about and points we have not talked about yet?
[20:20] <nubae> all shared with ubuntu
[20:20] <nubae> I dont see the big deal
[20:20] <nubae> our kernel is gonna be no different
[20:20] <LaserJock> well, it will at times
[20:20] <nubae> how?
[20:21] <LaserJock> because it depends on when we build
[20:21] <LaserJock> we might get Ubuntu before a critical fix
[20:21] <nubae> well forget it, lets not get weighed down in technical issues, u can explain it to me private later
[20:21] <LaserJock> it's just really not a trivial thing
[20:21] <nubae> well non of its trivial
[20:21] <LaserJock> not that I think it shouldn't be done
[20:21] <nubae> it was done before
[20:21] <LaserJock> but it's just that it's a lot of work, and nobody here has experience with it
[20:21] <LaserJock> right
[20:21] <nubae> with less resources than now
[20:21] <LaserJock> and it was a full time person
[20:22] <LaserJock> and they said it was a lot of work
[20:22] <nubae> just one person, we are 43 in here right now
[20:22] <nubae> surely that makes a community
[20:22] <LaserJock> sadly no
[20:22] <Svenstaro> I'm a student, I'm practically a full time person if I put myself to it.
[20:22] <nubae> look, we have to start being positive about this stuff
[20:22] <LaserJock> if people want to dig and and learn everything and do it then awesome
[20:22] <pygi> nubae: realistic
[20:23] <LaserJock> well, some of us aren't too positive, I know
[20:23] <nubae> or nothing will happen again, and in a month we'll have another meetting talking about the same stuff again
[20:23] <LaserJock> and I don't want to be a drag
[20:23] <LaserJock> but I've been doing this for a few years
[20:23] <LaserJock> and I've seen people come and go
[20:23] <alkisg> pygi, a sad reality is that most people here will do _nothing_ if edubuntu stays a set of apps. As a distro it may also die, but I think it has better chances.
[20:23] <LaserJock> so I'm just being a bit cautious
[20:23] <nubae> great, you're one person, so lets split this up with people who want to help
[20:23] <nubae> alkisg: +1
[20:23] <Svenstaro> Er wait, can'
[20:24] <Lns> can we at *least* define ourselves as a community right now? How about we all work on what we want to work on, related to Ubuntu and education.
[20:24] <Svenstaro> Er wait, can't we just all agree to make it a 'distro' or leave it be as it is right here right now?
[20:24] <LaserJock> ok, so let's get somebody to spearhead this
[20:24] <pygi> Lns: anarchy, no go :)
[20:24] <Lns> pygi, not anarchy in the least
[20:24] <nubae> both me an alkisg have been here for a quite some time and I have faith that he can do a lot of this stuff, I've also got faith in the enthusiasm shown by those new comers to the project in the last months
[20:24] <nubae> so lets move forward
[20:24] <LaserJock> ok, so nubae and alkisg will look into distro possibilities?
[20:24] <nubae> yes
[20:25] <alkisg> Yes, but on the promise that it's feasible (canonical hosting etc)
[20:25] <nubae> right
[20:25] <LaserJock> Action item: nubae and alkisg to look into the possibility of going back to single install disk/media
[20:25] <Lns> if canonical hosting doesn't work we can find another host
[20:25] <alkisg> Lns, it won't be edubuntu then
[20:25] <Lns> ugh
[20:25] <nubae> not going back, making a new usb/dvd iso image for marketing purposes
[20:25] <Lns> yes it would
[20:25] <alkisg> Trademark
[20:25] <Svenstaro> I have a dedicated server we can use, not a biggie.
[20:25] <LaserJock> I don't know
[20:25] <nubae> that contains the current addon + whatever else we have time/want to do
[20:26] <LaserJock> we eat up a lot of stuff
[20:26] <LaserJock> I believe Canonical can add people as mirrors
[20:26] <LaserJock> but I think we should do development and master hosting with Canonical
[20:26] <nubae> well I'm sure if we can prove there is a market, they may jump back on board
[20:26] <Lns> alkisg, if that's the case and they really care, and it gets to that point we can change the name
[20:26] <LaserJock> especially since all the build tools already are in place
[20:27] <alkisg> Lns, then it'll be "just another distro". Edubuntu now still has a name.
[20:27] <nubae> right it needs the name
[20:27] <LaserJock> we don't need another distro here
[20:27] <LaserJock> it'll work out
[20:27] <nubae> otherwise, might as well use opensuse studio
[20:27] <LaserJock> we just might need to do some compromising and working up to things
[20:27] <LaserJock> so some patience might be in order
[20:27] <nubae> sure
[20:27] <LaserJock> but I think it's totally doable
[20:27] <nubae> is there anyone here who wants to do artwork?
[20:27] <Svenstaro> I can do artwork.
[20:27] <alkisg> Or docs?
[20:28]  * Lns shrugs...again, i think we should focus on us as a community more than names and hosting providers
[20:28] <Svenstaro> And docs
[20:28] <nubae> ie, themes, icon sets, backgrounds, splashscreens?
[20:28] <LaserJock> Lns: right
[20:28] <Svenstaro> But I'd rather work on the big picture to be honest.
[20:28] <nubae> cool, ok Svenstaro to study new edu themes, icon sets, splashscreen
[20:28] <nubae> that is the big pic
[20:28] <LaserJock> artwork is a tough one
[20:28] <LaserJock> we've got some old stuff
[20:28] <nubae> the look and feel is what most people assume is the distro
[20:28] <LaserJock> but I think we need to get more themability
[20:29] <Svenstaro> Yes, but to be honest I believe my distro building experiences are needed rather than that.
[20:29] <LaserJock> for age-appropriate artwork
[20:29] <Svenstaro> I'd love to work on the website and remove a lot of ballast and make it simple.
[20:29] <Svenstaro> And structure the wiki and so on.
[20:29] <Svenstaro> I hate inconsistencies.
[20:29] <nubae> ok so ud rather work on packaging, iso creation?
[20:29] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: ok, you feel like taking on leading a wiki cleanup?
[20:29] <nubae> I think we have people for the website... thats kind of the easy part
[20:29] <Svenstaro> Yes, I do that all the time anyway.
[20:30] <nubae> we need folk for the hard stuff
[20:30] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, a website clean up rather, involving all the aspects. If I may get access, that is.
[20:30] <LaserJock> ok, so how many people have build a debian source package before?
[20:30] <LaserJock> *built
[20:30]  * Svenstaro raises hand.
[20:30] <alkisg> Are any other people here interested in contributing? Or it's just us that are talking?
[20:31]  * nubae raises hand, though it was just tutorial based, not real one
[20:31]  * alkisg raises hand
[20:31] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: how much packaging have you done?
[20:31] <LaserJock> cbx33: still around?
[20:31] <pygi> LaserJock: ++ I did :p
[20:31] <nubae> we need people to volunteer for development, docs, website, artwork, distribution and packagin
[20:31] <pygi> LaserJock: networkmanager for example :p
[20:31]  * pygi hides
[20:31] <LaserJock> lol
[20:31] <alkisg> Really, edubuntu with 5 people doesn't stand a chance...
[20:32] <LaserJock> really?
[20:32] <alkisg> Heh :)
[20:32] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, lots of packaging for Arch, little for Ubuntu, I always thought Ubuntu packagign is more complicated than it needs to be and I prefer to keep things simple but I can package Debian package.
[20:32] <Svenstaro> packages
[20:32] <LaserJock> that's a lot better than it has been
[20:32]  * nubae hits pygi with a pillow with a big NM on it
[20:32] <nubae> Svenstaro: I agree other packaging systems are much simpler
[20:32] <LaserJock> ok, so we have the following people who know something about packaging:
[20:32] <nubae> rpms are trivial for example
[20:33] <Svenstaro> I prefer Wicd to NM but that's just because I work on that project :>
[20:33] <LaserJock> Svenstaro, nubae, alkisg, pygi, cbx33, highvoltage, nixternal, LaserJock
[20:33] <LaserJock> that's awesome
[20:33] <LaserJock> ok, how many people would be willing to work on docs?
[20:34] <pygi> LaserJock: I can again spearhead the Handbook thingy
[20:34] <nubae> well me and sbalneav did most of the ltsp documentation
[20:34] <nubae> which was ripped out of the handbook
[20:34] <pygi> nubae: :P
[20:34] <nubae> rigth now the handbook is VERY ltsp centric
[20:34] <nixternal> no more documentation for me!
[20:34] <nubae> but we can do the reverse of what we did with ltsp docos
[20:34] <pygi> tho that's still an idea, we'll see what happens with my time, then I'll be able to say
[20:34] <nubae> rip out just the non ltsp stuff
[20:34] <nixternal> time to pass that buck on, I somehow got suckered into it a few years back :p
[20:34] <pygi> nixternal: haha, didn't you work with us on the handbook too? :-P
[20:35] <nixternal> ya, I did the initial conversion with HedgeMage iirc
[20:35] <LaserJock> well
[20:35] <LaserJock> maybe let's not worry about docs too much right now
[20:35] <nubae> it just needs ltsp out and updating
[20:35] <nixternal> ya, you should write apps so good that they don't need docs anyways right?
[20:35] <nubae> thinking back to ltsp docos, took a good week of work to get it in current condition
[20:35] <LaserJock> it seems like most devs are willing do some doc duty
[20:35] <nixternal> like everything should have a warning or information dialog with a paragraph of text in it :p
[20:36] <LaserJock> darn right ;-)
[20:36]  * pygi has to sleep, sorry
[20:36] <LaserJock> np
[20:36] <pygi> traveling early tomorrow
[20:36]  * HedgeMage looks up
[20:36] <nixternal> later pygi, nice seein' ya again
[20:36] <HedgeMage> I was pinged?
[20:36] <pygi> LaserJock: I'll send a mail with some details tomorrow
[20:36] <HedgeMage> oh, hi nixternal :)
[20:36] <nixternal> howdy HedgeMage, we have the OGs here
[20:36] <LaserJock> pygi: good, thanks
[20:36] <HedgeMage> OGs?
[20:36] <nixternal> where did Pete go? he doesn't talk to me anymore :p
[20:36] <nixternal> Original Gangsters
[20:36] <nubae> so HedgeMage just volunteered for documentation then  right? :p
[20:36] <pygi> nixternal: he's famous now :p
[20:36] <HedgeMage> Ahh :)
[20:36]  * pygi hides
[20:36] <nixternal> hehe
[20:37] <pygi> really out :p
[20:37] <LaserJock> ok, so I think it's important to kinda take a step back for a second
[20:37] <HedgeMage> nubae: Sorry, I am doing *no* volunteer stuff until I can get my new employees trained and up to speed (sometime in June, the latter of the two starts on June 1)
[20:37] <LaserJock> I'd like to get people thinking about what they can commit to for Karmic
[20:37] <HedgeMage> I'm *swamped*
[20:37] <nubae> HedgeMage: :p
[20:37] <Svenstaro> Er wait, did I just understand that you people want to rip the LTSP out of Edubuntu?
[20:37] <HedgeMage> Between that and LF starting summer break in a couple of weeks, yikes!
[20:38] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: well, technically it already has been
[20:38] <nubae> well, unless we actually include ltsp in edubuntu, yes
[20:38] <nixternal> oh, annma is here...I know she said something recently about Edubuntu...you know us KDE folks want to take it over
[20:38] <LaserJock> Edubuntu hasn't shipped LTSP for a while
[20:38] <LaserJock> nixternal: nooooooo!!!!
[20:38] <nubae> anyway, it should be seperated as  an addon moule
[20:38] <nixternal> oh ya
[20:38] <nubae> module
[20:38] <nubae> and anyway, the upstream documentation is really much much more updated now
[20:38] <nubae> the old stuff is just crud
[20:38] <nixternal> ltsp is staying in ubuntu alternate
[20:38] <LaserJock> I think LTSP is going to land in the Server Team in the future
[20:38] <cbx33> HedgeMage: WOW
[20:39]  * cbx33 waves
[20:39] <HedgeMage> hi, cb!
[20:39] <HedgeMage> How have you been?
[20:39] <cbx33> yeh not bad
[20:39] <Svenstaro> For me, the LTSP is a big reason I liked the idea of Edubuntu. My school has very old computers and configuration is done by walking to each computer individually.
[20:39]  * pwnguin wonders what edubuntu is left with sans LTSP
[20:39] <HedgeMage> cbx33: I'm glad to hear it.
[20:39] <cbx33> you HedgeMage ?
[20:39] <nubae> Right, its not going away, tis just being seperated
[20:39] <LaserJock> pwnguin: lots of good apps and content hopefully
[20:39] <nixternal> pwnguin: the greatest edu apps in the world :)
[20:39] <nubae> so it can be updated
[20:39] <LaserJock> right
[20:39] <Lns> cbx33, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/TCM-NG :)
[20:40] <HedgeMage> pwnguin: Art, edu apps, metapackages for edu stuff, support, docs... I could keep going!
[20:40] <nubae> so we will take upstream docs and put them back in
[20:40] <nubae> but seperate
[20:40] <LaserJock> the thing is, LTSP is a lot more general than education
[20:40] <nubae> yeah
[20:40] <LaserJock> although Edubuntu is the major "consumer" of LTSP
[20:40] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, well, we will use it for education.
[20:40] <nixternal> it is good providing ltsp on the alt cd for ubuntu, that way there you can set it up from the get go and easily have any DE you want, which was pretty nice to play around with when rewriting the book chapter
[20:40] <LaserJock> but it's really server technology
[20:40] <cbx33> cool
[20:40] <Svenstaro> If LTSP worked correctly, it would own. Especially on a live medium.
[20:40] <LaserJock> and so it makes sense to have the server guys more involved with it
[20:40] <nubae> most people will, but the docs need to be kind of seperated, or else we'll go crazy
[20:40]  * nixternal kicks cbx33 in the shin, quit ignoring me! :p
[20:41] <cbx33> nixternal: hey dude
[20:41] <Lns> Svenstaro, worked coorectly?
[20:41] <cbx33> when did I ignore you?
[20:41] <nixternal> this past 10 minutes :p
[20:41] <HedgeMage> cbx33: Good, overall, just kind of madenning.  Incorporated the business, have a board to deal with now.  Hired someone who didn't work out, fired him this week, working on getting all the work under control, hired two new people, getting them started and trained and such, LF is doing great in school and we are picking out his summer activities, so on and so forth.
[20:41] <cbx33> ahhh i see you
[20:41] <nixternal> though I said Pete, dunno if you got highlighted on that
[20:41] <cbx33> I was bathing the little one
[20:41] <Svenstaro> Also, to be honest, a handbook is unnecessary overhead and leads to confusion if other docs are more recent. There should be one single source of information, a well done wiki.
[20:41] <pwnguin> LaserJock: so then, is there really a need for an edubuntu brand and install cd?
[20:41] <cbx33> cool HedgeMage
[20:41] <LaserJock> pwnguin: certainly
[20:41] <cbx33> nixternal: no only cbx33 gains my attention
[20:41] <HedgeMage> Svenstaro: You will *never* get me to contribute to a wiki.
[20:42] <nixternal> gotcha
[20:42] <Svenstaro> HedgeMage, why not?
[20:42] <nixternal> HedgeMage: hire me! I am looking for work :)
[20:42] <alkisg> pwnguin: I think LTSP will *be* in the edubuntu dvd, it's just the docs that'll get seperated
[20:42] <LaserJock> I think there is a use for different documentation media
[20:43] <HedgeMage> Svenstaro: Because I refuse to use wiki markup.  I know a number of decent forms of markup, but wikispeak is maddening... how many ' are bold and how many are italic or bold italic?  It's irritating.
[20:43] <Svenstaro> There should be a section on the wiki that regularly gets PDF'd into a handbook.
[20:43] <LaserJock> alkisg: but I think it will be maintained by the server team
[20:43] <HedgeMage> nixternal: send me a resume, I will be hiring again at the end of the summer.
[20:43] <alkisg> LaserJock: sure, we'll just use it because we need it in education
[20:43] <LaserJock> right
[20:43] <LaserJock> well
[20:43] <nixternal> '' == ital, ''' == bold, and ''''' == bold ital :p
[20:43] <nixternal> i think
[20:43] <HedgeMage> heh
[20:43] <HedgeMage> see, even you aren't sure!
[20:43] <LaserJock> does anybody feel any less confused about what Edubuntu is and where it's heading?
[20:44] <nubae> just cause we include it on the dvd/cdrom/usb does not mean we are responsible for it
 and <em> is so much smarter, or <warning> etc if you go WYSIWYM ;)
[20:44] <nubae> thats something we should make clear... we will help those users though
[20:44] <LaserJock> right
[20:44] <nubae> in fact most of the people talking are somehow involved with LTSP
[20:44] <LaserJock> certainly supporting LTSP in educational environments would be in the scope of Edubuntu
[20:44] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: I know what I think it should be and where I think it should head... no idea what's happened in the two years or so I've been out of the loop, though.
[20:44] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, not too much, to be honest. We haven't really decided on anything. Set up votes or something and work down bullet points of decisions.
[20:45] <LaserJock> right
[20:45] <LaserJock> I know I'm not any more clear
[20:45] <LaserJock> :-)
[20:45] <HedgeMage> We don't want to build a camel, though.
[20:45] <HedgeMage> brb
[20:45] <nubae> u were clear before?
[20:45] <LaserJock> nope
[20:45] <LaserJock> the biggest point of this meeting was to get people together
[20:45] <pwnguin> pardon my question, if im interrupting a meeting that's time starved: Is edubuntu k12 specific?
[20:45] <Lns> LaserJock, Edubuntu = Ubuntu + Education
[20:45] <nubae> well then, now if we decide it'll be an image including the addon stuff, that should be pretty clear no?
[20:46] <LaserJock> I seriously doubt an IRC meeting is going to clear everything up
[20:46] <Lns> the last 10 haven't.. ;)
[20:46] <Svenstaro> I guess I'll just build my vision of a distro now and merge back with whatever you guys came up with. I'm not really sure what else to do.
[20:46] <LaserJock> pwnguin: well, depends
[20:46] <LaserJock> pwnguin: I think no
[20:46] <pygi> Svenstaro: patience
[20:46] <nubae> Lns: great point... thats ll it needs to be
[20:46] <pygi> wait for tomorrow's mail please
[20:46] <Lns> nubae, seriously
[20:46] <nubae> yep
[20:46] <Lns> if different people want different things, let them work on it!
[20:46] <nubae> right
[20:46] <Lns> we're all ubuntu + education.
[20:47] <LaserJock> well, I don't think whether it's a distro or an addon changes much of anything
[20:47] <Lns> the more people with more ideas the better.
[20:47] <nubae> righto... now I need a cigarette :p
[20:47] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, it does. It's a way of thinking about a product.
[20:47] <pwnguin> At the moment, my role is a system administrator for a Community College. i know many college computer labs like the idea of ltsp, but as you said, it's not just education that wants ltsp. one thing that's becoming very useful is Moodle
[20:47] <Svenstaro> By-product vs full product, LaserJock
[20:47] <HedgeMage> pwnguin: I'd say it's not k12 only, but we certainly pay extra attention to those levels because they need the most help
[20:47] <nubae> LaserJock: not technically, but from public perspective its huge
[20:47] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: but we still have most of the same things to do
[20:47] <nubae> liek Svenstaro says
[20:47] <alkisg> LaserJock: I know of a lot of people that left edubuntu because it wasn't a distro anymore, so I think it changes things...
[20:47] <LaserJock> ok, here's my bottom line
[20:48] <LaserJock> it doesn't matter whether it's a distro or an addon if the stuff you ship is crap
[20:48] <nubae> alkisg:  right
[20:48] <LaserJock> and that's my concern
[20:48] <LaserJock> we are an absolute *mess*
[20:48] <nubae> well, obviously we are gonna do QA
[20:48] <alkisg> We're not responsible about the stuff quality. Only for _selecting_ the stuff.
[20:48] <nubae> whoever wants to work on that can
[20:48] <nubae> the point is to get people working
[20:48] <LaserJock> and I really don't think it's gonna matter on the points if we're 2 media or 1 media install
[20:48] <nubae> and get them working now
[20:49] <pwnguin> anyone who selects crap isn't doing a good job
[20:49] <nubae> code first...
[20:49] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: I would encourage you to work with Edubuntu and not fork off
[20:49] <nubae> right
[20:49] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: lets' work on a common vision, I think we can do it
[20:49] <pwnguin> my theory is if you like the package, take up a maintainer role
[20:49] <LaserJock> alkisg: no, we are in charge of the quality
[20:49] <HedgeMage> alkisg: I disagree, to a point.  We'll have more direct interface opportunities with schools, and we need to push what we learn upstream, as well and encourage the development needed to fill the gaps in what's available.
[20:49] <nubae> we won't be putting in shinny things... we'll put in working code first
[20:49] <pwnguin> subscribe to the upstream mailing list, subscribe to the LP bug reports, triage bugs, report and try to make sure the thing works
[20:49] <nubae> yeah we do need some QA
[20:49] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, then I want decisions :/ Talking really doesn't solve too much. Or put me in cahrge of working out how to get decisions or something.
[20:50] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: we need and I believe will make decisions
[20:50]  * Lns thinks we should remember what sbalneav said yesterday
[20:50] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: May I pm you please?
[20:50] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: I think everybody needs to kinda get everything out first
[20:50] <LaserJock> HedgeMage: of coruse
[20:50] <alkisg> HedgeMage: When I right-click on firefox with LTSP there's a 5 seconds delay. I'll report this to LTSP and xcb and that's that. I don't think I'm responsible to fix it, that's what I'm saying.
[20:50] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, oh well :/
[20:51] <pwnguin> putting a package in a metapackage without anyone making a committment to quality is a recipe for upset users
[20:51] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: oh well what? I think you have a great opportunity here to get your vision implemented
[20:51] <HedgeMage> alkisg: Right, but if a school says "we have this problem", we should help them figure out enough to see that it is reported properly, and that we are communicating to upstream projects what problems most impact schools.
[20:51] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: decisions need to be made but I don't think we can make them just this second
[20:51] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, oh well as in 'I agree' but as I'm eager to actually stat wokring on something that's kind of putting me off.
[20:51] <LaserJock> it takes some thought and investigation for a lot of these
[20:52] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: well, what would you like to work on right now?
[20:52] <Svenstaro> Sometimes, its just better to experiment and discard bad experiments.
[20:52] <LaserJock> I can perhaps direct you
[20:52] <LaserJock> I agree
[20:52] <LaserJock> I just want us to experiment together
[20:52]  * bencrisford1 is anxious to get started on some marketing material
[20:52] <Svenstaro> I'd like to work on a topdown approach and structure information so we can at least see where stuff is lacking. I see 3 major points: distribution medium, applications, documentation
[20:53] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: ok, so let's work on those
[20:54] <Lns> +1 Svenstaro
[20:54] <LaserJock> I can give you *lots* of info on where Edubuntu is lacking :-)
[20:55] <LaserJock> I've been working on this for a couple years now
[20:55] <LaserJock> I can tell you specific things that need to be done
[20:55]  * Lns kicks LaserJock for not being supportive of his own project ;)
[20:55] <LaserJock> but when I've done that in the past I've not got a ton of response from people
[20:55] <bencrisford1> can anyone direct me to the channel logs?  because i missed the last bit of the meeting because of my internet
[20:55] <LaserJock> so I hope the energy here is matched with some action
[20:55] <pwnguin> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/05/22/%23edubuntu.html
[20:55] <bencrisford1> thanks pwnguin
[20:56] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, I promise you it is. I've refurbished another distro in the past because I was unhappy about the results of the original creators.
[20:57] <LaserJock> ok
[20:57] <LaserJock> so
[20:57] <LaserJock> moving forward
[20:57] <LaserJock> I want to see lots of emails on the list
[20:57] <Svenstaro> I propose I work on a timeline diagram (is there such a thing?) that defines when what kind of work is going to be done and have that signed off by everyone who is willing to contribute.
[20:57] <Svenstaro> I love seeing the big picture so I might as well create it.
[20:58] <Svenstaro> That is, if you don't already have something like that.
[20:58] <HedgeMage> Pardon if I missed it with my late entry... were there introductions?  I don't know who half the people here are, or their interests and skill sets.
[20:58] <LaserJock> well
[20:58] <HedgeMage> Could we take a step back and figure out who/what we have to work with?
[20:58] <LaserJock> HedgeMage: yeah, we had an intro at the beginning (about 2 hr ago)
[20:58] <HedgeMage> :o
[20:58]  * HedgeMage scrolls back
[20:58] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: well, what kind of timeline are you thinking?
[20:58] <Lns> LaserJock, so how about those teams, eh?
[20:59] <LaserJock> we need to figure out what we're going to do for Karmic
[20:59] <LaserJock> that is of primary importance
[20:59] <LaserJock> I'm not sure we could get a DVD/USB image done in 1 release
[20:59] <LaserJock> at least official
[20:59] <Lns> LaserJock, why not let the ppl who want to do that worry about it?
[20:59] <alkisg> I agree. I'm thinking of an unofficial... yeap, that.
[21:00] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, kind of like my diagram from earlier but on a timeline, rather.
[21:00] <pwnguin> do we have any evidence school districts need/want dvds and usb images?
[21:01] <LaserJock> Svenstaro:  so what kind of time parameters are you going to use?
[21:01] <alkisg> pwnguin: in my area (Greece), yes
[21:01] <pwnguin> at least in the affluent area where i live, schools use norton ghost
[21:01] <LaserJock> well
[21:01] <alkisg> norton ghost? with linux?
[21:01] <Lns> norton gross =p
[21:01] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, because obviously we dont want to create documentation for a distribution that doesn't really exist. So we should do stuff in order to channel our almighty powers of creation to stuff that makes sense.
[21:01] <pwnguin> an ubuntu cd that IT can customize via a metapackage might be sufficient or even preferred
[21:01] <LaserJock> I've been contacted by a number of people who just want a single installation disk, be it USB, DVD, or CD
[21:02] <Lns> https://launchpad.net/people/?name=edubuntu&searchfor=all
[21:02] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, what do you mean by time parameters? I mean a rough schedule that doesn't really reflect weeks or months but rather task after task in parallel.
[21:02] <LaserJock> ok
[21:03] <Svenstaro> the last part of my sentence was self-contradicting.
[21:03] <Svenstaro> I mean having multiple teams work on different things that need work at that point of time.
[21:03] <Svenstaro> That is, if nobody has a better idea of creating a "big picture".
[21:04] <pwnguin> probably, what edubuntu needs is critical mass. there's a dozen teams with their own mailing list
[21:04] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: ok, sounds good
[21:04] <pwnguin> i think consolidation has been suggested.
[21:04] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: send a draft to the mailing list and we can have a log
[21:05] <Svenstaro> Alright
[21:06] <pwnguin> i take that back; it looks like most teams don't have a list
[21:06] <LaserJock> *look
[21:06] <Svenstaro> I think it would be appreciated if more people are just decided instead of suggested, as has been answered to me on the mailing list.
[21:06] <nubae> pwnguin: yes we do have evidence schools want usb sticks with edubuntu on them
[21:06] <pwnguin> nubae: any idea why?
[21:06] <LaserJock> to install stuff I'm guessing ;-)
[21:07] <pwnguin> im guessing to run live without overwriting the windows image
[21:07] <alkisg> pwnguin: because it takes hours from an installed ubuntu to reach an "educational" installation.
[21:07] <alkisg> ...and also the live stuff.
[21:08] <alkisg> LaserJock: is there any problem if we include multiverse apps on the dvd?
[21:09] <LaserJock> yes
[21:09] <LaserJock> we could perhaps do Universe but I doubt we could do Multiverse
[21:09] <pwnguin> it depends on the app
[21:09] <LaserJock> Ubuntu is still about free software ;-)
[21:09] <alkisg> What about FOSS apps not in debian?
[21:10] <pwnguin> MOTU and debian both have processes for that
[21:10] <alkisg> OK, I get it.
[21:10] <pwnguin> karmic's far enough off that you can get that accomplished i'd think
[21:10] <LaserJock> alkisg: we can package stuff up for sure
[21:10]  * bencrisford1 is about to mail the list about the students idea
[21:11] <bencrisford1> then ill talk to the students team
[21:11] <nubae> welll thats where packaging comes in
[21:12] <LaserJock> I'd like to finalized the strategy doc
[21:12] <LaserJock> I think that will help us all get on the same page
[21:12] <LaserJock> and will give the community some clarity and focus
[21:13] <LaserJock> the current draft is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument
[21:14] <Lns> "The first objective Edubuntu has is to bring a education focus to Ubuntu."
[21:14] <Lns> hmm.
[21:14] <nubae1> (22:10:58) Nubae: welll thats where packaging comes in
[21:14] <nubae1> (22:11:31) Nubae: if there is an edu app that needs to be packaged we do it for universe first, then we give a reason y it should be properly supported by main
[21:14] <nubae1> (22:12:10) Nubae: and I think the reasons for having a live distro are pretty self evident
[21:14] <nubae1> (22:12:20) Nubae: and there are many reasons for it, not just one
[21:14] <nubae1> (22:12:55) Nubae: for example... having an image that was a fat image that could also be distributed via ltsp would be a usage case scenario
[21:14]  * Lns slaps nubae1 with a large trout
[21:15] <Lns> How about... "The first objective Edubuntu has is to bring Ubuntu focus to education."
[21:15] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: Can anyone add to that?
[21:15] <LaserJock> well
[21:15] <nubae> add to what?
[21:15] <LaserJock> how about this
[21:15] <LaserJock> I would like people to email the list with comments on it
[21:16] <nubae> if anything it would be an education focus, not a education focus :p
[21:16] <LaserJock> I'd rather people not just randomly edit it right now
[21:16] <nubae> comments on what?
[21:16] <nubae> the website?
[21:16] <LaserJock> the strategy doc
[21:16] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument
[21:17] <pwnguin> well i hope someone randomly fixes the markup on focus 1
[21:17] <LaserJock> I need to get back to my disseration
[21:17] <LaserJock> pwnguin: yeah, I noticed that, I'll fix it
[21:17] <LaserJock> if people have minor edits I don't mind
[21:17] <LaserJock> I just put a lot of thought and time into it so I'd rather people not make major changes without discussing it first
[21:18] <Lns> I think we need to start over from scratch.. :)
[21:18] <Lns> oh
[21:18] <Lns> nm then =p
[21:18] <jt4sugar> If you start at student desktop and decide what you want happening there and map-backward from that point through teacher through school you should have pretty good idea of what is needed-Visually Mapping it would be helpful
[21:19] <LaserJock> well, you could all start from scratch
[21:19] <Svenstaro> I'll probably be shouted at but can anybody explain to me why sugar is so important for us now?
[21:19] <LaserJock> but I thought my draft wasn't *that* bad
[21:19] <pwnguin> Svenstaro: i also thought it was strange that sugar was the only focus fleshed out
[21:20] <Lns> LaserJock, no it's not at all
[21:20] <Lns> sorry..i'll leave it to my list post :)
[21:20] <cbx33> looks good LaserJock
[21:20] <LaserJock> well, the Sugar thing was because we were working on how to view Sugar
[21:20] <LaserJock> it doesn't mean it's the most important or anthing
[21:21] <LaserJock> just the latest one we were trying to work on
[21:21] <Svenstaro> Still, somebody explain to me what advantages would sugar have for us.
[21:21] <alkisg> Svenstaro: nubae, like me and you are interested in edubuntu=distro in a live dvd. I care about the easy ltsp installation stuff, nubae cares about the sugar stuff. Edubuntu will have modules or roles, so sugar will be a module nubae will work on. I don't see a problem there...
[21:21] <Svenstaro> It's just a WM and a simplistic desktop, isn't it?
[21:21] <LaserJock> well, it's fairly big in Educational circles
[21:21] <LaserJock> and there is some momentum
[21:21] <pwnguin> Svenstaro: i imagine it's intended to be a UI for young children
[21:21] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:22] <Svenstaro> But won't it cripple the workspace for more complex use cases?
[21:22] <pwnguin> only if installed by default
[21:22] <Svenstaro> Ah I see, so its optional.
[21:22] <pwnguin> i didnt say that
[21:22] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:22] <nubae> there is nothing simplistic about sugar
[21:23] <Svenstaro> So I think that forms a decision to make a dsitro building service.
[21:23] <nubae> its actually probably the most advanced WM out right now
[21:23] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: it would be login option at most I believe
[21:23] <nubae> well, with an icon on the desktop
[21:23] <LaserJock> it might depend on the age level selected
[21:23] <nubae> which would launch sugar-emulator
[21:23] <nubae> but indeed it is not at all the only option
[21:24] <nubae> one will be able to launch individual activities from sugar too
[21:24] <Svenstaro> How does LTSP work together with sugar?
[21:24] <nubae> to take advantage of collaboration
[21:24] <nubae> Svenstaro: just fine
[21:24] <Svenstaro> Nice to hear
[21:24] <nubae> if u read my blog u'll see my proof of concept
[21:24] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: it's basically just another desktop environment
[21:24] <LaserJock> one that is tied pretty tightly to education for a lot of people
[21:24] <nubae> but it has unique features making it very nice for kids
[21:25] <Svenstaro> I approve then :P
[21:25] <nubae> it is the OS running on the one laptop per child xos
[21:25] <nubae> used by 1 million+
[21:25] <nubae> so its not a project that is about to die
[21:25] <pwnguin> OLPC or sugar?
[21:25] <nubae> and yeah, since I am probably very sugar-centric I'll probably help with the packaging
[21:26] <nubae> sugar is used by more than a million users who have xos
[21:26] <nubae> so the non xo usage is probably big too, but right now biggest exposure is in developing nations
[21:27] <LaserJock> ok, time for me to duck out
[21:27] <cbx33> ty LaserJock
[21:27] <LaserJock> I will send out meeting minutes
[21:27] <LaserJock> sometime in the next day or so I'd guess
[21:28] <alkisg> Thanks LaserJock :)
[21:28] <nubae> cool
[21:29] <pwnguin> wikipedia says the XO can dual boot windows; i wonder how many schools take the hardware and install windows on them
[21:29] <nestor> well, guys, I'm here again
[21:30] <class1> anybody have this afternoon meeting minutes?
[21:30] <nestor> no, I don't. sorry. I'm quite busy
[21:30] <pwnguin> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/05/22/%23edubuntu.html
[21:30] <pwnguin> thats the raw logs
[21:30] <class1> hiya pwnguin
[21:30] <pwnguin> i dont think there was any votes
[21:30] <nestor> I must leave, good luck!
[21:31] <class1> didn't see you in the list
[21:31] <pwnguin> well, i thought i'd see what the project's up to
[21:31] <kjcole> I gather I interrupted a meeting earlier.  Meeting over?
[21:32] <pwnguin> i guess further discussion can be tabled / posted to edubuntu-devel
[21:32] <jt4sugar>  Check out http://tutorius.org/ if running Sugar can use this tool that allows Teachers to create Tutorials
[21:32] <pwnguin> ouch
[21:33] <pwnguin> "Even though Sugar isn’t the official operating system running on the XO (OLPC laptop) anymore,"
[21:33] <LaserJock> pwnguin: thanks for dropping by
[21:33] <LaserJock> kjcole: yeah, 2hrs was enough
[21:33] <pwnguin> LaserJock: go earn your phd
[21:33] <kjcole> So, I'll re-ask (or re-inform depending on your interpretation):
[21:34] <kjcole> Anyone here going to NECC (National Educational Computing Conference) here in DC, June 28 - July 1?
[21:34] <pwnguin> that would require travel budgets
[21:35]  * Svenstaro is no wiser now
[21:36] <pwnguin> well, i got a better picture
[21:36] <pwnguin> I was curious if there'd be anyone here looking at Moodle migration, after Blackboard announced their next competitor acquisition
[21:37] <pwnguin> looks like no; probably people in that situation aren't aware of projects like edubuntu
[21:40] <jt4sugar> Thanks for the opportunity to learn!
[21:42] <nubae> pwnguin: I work with moodle quite a lot
[21:42] <nubae> and suggested edubuntu get its own moodle instance, but it was rejected... we are doing that in opensuse though
[21:43] <nubae> basically moving everything edu to their moodle instance
[21:43] <pwnguin> when was it rejected?
[21:43] <nubae> a couple months ago
[21:43] <pwnguin> heh
[21:43] <pwnguin> someone ponied up the money for a moodle server
[21:43] <pwnguin> #ubuntu-learning is in the process of setting it up and creating courseware
[21:44] <nubae> oh, wow, see I didn't even know that :-)
[21:44] <nubae> but guess that would be to help in packaging and stuff
[21:44] <pwnguin> pleia2 put it on the meeting agenda...
[21:44] <pwnguin> at the moment, i think it's wide open
[21:45] <pwnguin> some people want to create packaging and server admin courses
[21:45] <pwnguin> but its open to other projects I believe
[21:47] <pwnguin> nubae: I blogged about this on the planet, but a lot of people are thinking that open source is the only way to avoid blackboard's terrible customer service
[21:48] <pwnguin> hopefully ubuntu-learning will be a good dogfood project
[22:03] <class1> pwngwen, use norton because that's what they want?  won't clonezilla do cloning via the network?
[22:05] <class1> fwiw, they did fix the shutdown issue
[22:06] <pwnguin> they very well may use something else
[22:06] <pwnguin> but the point is they're big on imaging
[22:06] <pwnguin> i know our labs are
[22:07] <alkisg> fog-project ftw :)
[22:07] <class1> fwiw, i have 3 children and two mothers in the lab currently using ltsp lab
[22:08] <class1> hrm, that might be better option than ltsp
[22:08] <class1> manage one and image thousands
[22:09] <pwnguin> windows has a concept called sysprep
[22:09] <alkisg> Linux has no need for sysprep :)
[22:09] <pwnguin> im not sure that's true
[22:09] <pwnguin> hostnames are still hostnames
[22:09] <class1> any suggestions for kid's games/softare for ages 6 - 12 that i can aptitude install ?
[22:09] <alkisg> I've seen sysprep'ed images fail if put on different hardware
[22:10] <alkisg> ...and linux cp'ed partitions booting just fine
[22:10] <pwnguin> anything you want unique per box needs some syspreppy thing
[22:10] <pwnguin> class1: sgt-puzzles?
[22:10] <class1> i'm getting ready to upgrade ltsp clients.  the lab has exactly 7 more days before i make a decision to pull it or leave it
[22:13] <pwnguin> class1: you've seen debian jr?
[22:13] <class1> nope
[22:14] <class1> i'll take a look at it though
[22:14] <class1> does ltsp ?
[22:14] <class1> or would i need to image
[22:14] <pwnguin> i donno about that
[22:14] <pwnguin> but all their packages are in ubuntu
[22:14] <pwnguin> junior-
[22:15] <class1> how good is iTalc?  when i attempted to use it, i only saw one screen, the screen i was sitting at.  isn't it supposed to be a session managment  tool ?
[22:15] <pwnguin> probably shouldn't ask me
[22:15] <pwnguin> i work for a community college
[22:16] <class1> yes, i know :)
[22:18] <nubae> ltsp is extremely powerful and complex, dont expect to learn it in one day
[22:18] <nubae> nice post Lns
[22:18] <class1> nubae: ?
[22:19] <nubae> anyway, iTalc works just fine
[22:19] <Lns> thx nubae
[22:19] <nubae> u just need to know what u're doing
[22:19] <class1> like click on the icon and see the attached working clients?
[22:20] <nubae> no, like put in the ip of the client, and in the case of ltsp, its more complex, search the net for help
[22:20] <nubae> its there
[22:20] <class1> no way to load the client's as they are logged in or upon boot?
[22:21] <class1> i would have assumed that if you were sitting at the server and had iTalc installed, in edubuntu or ubuntu-ltsp it would be tied into the system
[22:21] <class1> and client that was on would be auto attached to the system
[22:22] <nubae> it is tied into the system, but u still need to tell it what client to look at
[22:22] <class1> nubae: so ur telling me that the teacher/instructor needs to know the ip address of each client?
[22:22] <nubae> anyway like I said, the documentation is online
[22:22] <alkisg> class1: version?
[22:22] <alkisg> In 9.04 it has autodetection
[22:22] <class1> alkisg: version for ?
[22:22] <class1> ah, ok
[22:22] <class1> i'm on 9.04
[22:22] <alkisg> So it should autodetect all clients
[22:22] <class1> but considering going back to 8.10 cause i've got clients crashing
[22:23] <class1> when using firefox
[22:23] <nubae> in any case, u should look at the documentation it explains it all much better than we ever could
[22:23] <nubae> well why not switch to firefox2 then, or opera, or do local apps for firefox
[22:24] <class1> nubae: seriously, if a third grade teacher has access to iTalc, or the yearbook instructor, you really don't expect them to know and input ip address to view clients with iTalc do you?
[22:24] <Lns> doesn't italc have names you can assign to each system?
[22:24] <class1> let's go one step further, the librarian, where it might most used at
[22:25] <class1> maybe i'm confused on iTalc.  it thought it was a way to monitor clients
[22:25] <alkisg> class1: it is. It has autodetection. Are you not seeing the clients automatically in 9.04?
[22:26] <class1> i've not installed it in 9.04.  i'll try it now
[22:26] <alkisg> Do you have 8.10 now?
[22:26] <Ahmuck_> no, i did a dist upgrade to 9.04
[22:27] <alkisg> Ahmuck_: you're class1?
[22:28] <Lns> lol
[22:28] <Ahmuck_> yes, i'm moving between classes
[22:28] <Ahmuck_> watching and listening to use.  evaluating
[22:31] <Ahmuck_> alkisg: ? would it matter who i was?
[22:32] <alkisg> Ahmuck_: no, but I asked class1 and Ahmuck answered, so I was confused.
[22:32] <Ahmuck_> :)
[22:32] <Ahmuck_> http://italc.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php?title=First_steps - empty
[22:33] <Ahmuck_> i'd agree with Svenstaro on a wiki
[22:33] <Svenstaro> huh wah who highlights me?
[22:33] <Svenstaro> what context?
[22:34] <Ahmuck_> wiki is community documentation.  which can be hosted anywhere
[22:34] <nubae> class1: LTSP is not a trivial system, its complex and extremely powerful, it takes time to understand it, and probably many years to master it
[22:34] <Ahmuck_> and good sources of documentation are hard to find
[22:34] <Ahmuck_> nubae: :) that's why windows is so popular
[22:34] <nubae> LTSP is not for everyone, its for the experienced linux/unix sysadmin
[22:34] <nubae> yup
[22:34] <nubae> but thin client systems on windows are no easier
[22:35] <Svenstaro> Yes, lets make LTSP feasible for schools.
[22:35] <nubae> where they do exist, they are even more complex than LTSP and each one has its own standards
[22:35] <Svenstaro> If it breaks, oh well, but we can at least make it easy to configure.
[22:35] <nubae> the thing here is, u cant expect LTSP to be managed by a non-sysadmin, its just unrealistic
[22:36] <nubae> Lns is a good example... he administers numerous schools with LTSP
[22:36] <nubae> but has on site guys who do the day to day
[22:36] <Svenstaro> nubae, are you quite sure? Some wizards are quite amazing :)
[22:36] <nubae> u said the magic words there (no pun intended)
[22:36] <nubae> some wizards
[22:37] <nubae> the problem is not in ease of installation... with ubuntu, its hit F4 on startup and u have a fully functioning LTSP lab at your disposal
[22:37] <Lns> Svenstaro, nubae: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/TCM-NG
[22:37] <nubae> its where u go from there
[22:37] <nubae> ah is that what u've been working on Lns?
[22:37] <Lns> yup
[22:37] <Ahmuck_> u'll never get edubuntu ltsp in my area unless ur willing to bring management utilities to the platform and some additional things as well.  our entire area is microsoft and it's held by larger companies supplying the schools.  if you want linux and oss in the schools you need to show something that works, and works on the instructor level, not the admin level.  our local school district has...
[22:37] <Ahmuck_> ...a non-technician coming in 10 hours a week to do tech work.  it's what's in the budget
[22:37] <nubae> reminds me of star trek... The next generation
[22:37] <nubae> hehe
[22:38] <Lns> ha!
[22:38] <Lns> call me picard then, haha
[22:38] <nubae> Aye Captain
[22:38] <nubae> engage
[22:38] <Lns> =p
[22:39] <nubae> heh, but then u need to rename ure app to: Next Generation
[22:39] <Ahmuck_> Lns, if you were in a car accident tomorrow is there enough linux personal in the area to pick up your clients?
[22:39] <nubae> I highly doubt it
[22:39] <Lns> nope
[22:39] <nubae> but thats the whole point
[22:39] <Lns> which is why i'm in a very good position :)
[22:39] <nubae> if there were, he wouldnt have those jobs
[22:39] <nubae> right
[22:40] <Lns> nubae, that's not true, i'd still be the best =)
[22:40] <nubae> its like people that know how to code in fortran
[22:40] <Ahmuck_> so, as a school administrator/board why in the world would i want to put ltsp in my school if you are my only contact for support
[22:40] <nubae> they're not that many but those that do exist, get paid well for that knowledge
[22:40] <Ahmuck_> if it breaks and your gone then what?
[22:40] <nubae> because its that good
[22:40] <nubae> and saves u that much money
[22:40] <Lns> Ahmuck_, community support often rivals paid support
[22:40] <nubae> its all about TCOS
[22:40] <Ahmuck_> nubae: it saves me no money if i have to fly someone in from kansas city to fix it
[22:41] <nubae> and who said u have to do that?
[22:41] <Lns> Ahmuck_, you're forgetting that things break much less in these setups
[22:41] <nubae> and remote assistance is quite easy with ltsp setups
[22:41] <nubae> less hardware to break
[22:41] <nubae> and if it does break, they can just put another machine in its place and be off again
[22:41] <nubae> cant do that in normal scenario
[22:41] <nubae> even if server breaks, switch hard drives and continue
[22:42] <nubae> its redundancy can be set up so u really are very very safe
[22:42] <nubae> much safer than any windows setup ever
[22:42] <nubae> In the setups I manage, I usually have 2 hard disks, one of which is a dd of the other
[22:42] <Lns> with my 9 setups i rarely have any big issues, after 3 years. Can't remember the last time a whole lab went down
[22:42] <nubae> cron'd per day
[22:43] <nubae> that way, if the server/hard drive dies, its a max of 24 hours of lost material
[22:43] <Ahmuck_> nubae: why not linux software raid?
[22:43] <nubae> not really needed in my experience, prefer to use the drive as a direct backup
[22:43] <Ahmuck_> with linux software raid you wouldn't loose 24 hours would you?
[22:43] <nubae> so they can pull out the damaged one, and put in the backup and continue working like nothing happened, send me or give me the broken one
[22:44] <Lns> you can also mount dd images and extract files
[22:44] <nubae> it depends on how u set it up... u can of course set up a cron job to dd the drive every couple minutes if u really wanted to
[22:44] <Lns> or in nubae's case simply plug it in
[22:44] <nubae> right
[22:44] <Lns> nubae, dd would take more than a couple mins on anything bigger than a floppy disk ;)
[22:44] <nubae> I tell them to do dds to dvds too, and take that out the building, in case of fire or whatever
[22:45] <nubae> Lns: tru dat :D but u know what I mean
[22:45] <Lns> yup
[22:45]  * nubae slaps Lns... nitpicker
[22:45] <Lns> hey when you have nothing else to argue about.. =p
[22:46] <isforinsects> What time is that meeting anyway?
[22:46] <isforinsects> 1800 utc?
[22:46] <nubae> anyway, I offered to take over Lns clients if he ever gets hit by a truck
[22:46] <nubae> hehe
[22:46] <nubae> isforinsects: u missed it
[22:46] <isforinsects> ? :-(
[22:46] <isforinsects> sad panda
[22:47] <nubae> bad panda
[22:47] <isforinsects> I have the scrollback
[22:47] <nubae> ;-)
[22:47] <isforinsects> I was told 1800 utc, which is ... 1300 my time
[22:47] <nubae> we spoke briefly about sugar
[22:47] <isforinsects> right... I went the wrong way with thta math
[22:47] <nubae> hehe
[22:48] <nubae> basically it boils down to someone whose passionate enough about it to do it. I have this terrible feeling that might be me
[22:48] <nubae> but I wont be able to work on it until after I'm done with the Suse work...
[22:50] <Lns> nubae, =)
[22:52] <Ahmuck_> alkisg: installed.  as clients come on, should i be seeing them in the window?
[22:53] <alkisg> Νο
[22:53] <alkisg> You'll have to restart italc to see the new clients
[22:53] <alkisg> (or declare them all in a static file so you'll see them when they come on)
[22:53] <Ahmuck_> only clients logging on are shown ?
[22:54] <Ahmuck_> so i assume that a static file is used for remote login/poweron
[22:54] <Ahmuck_> Lns: do you hardset your ip address for your clients?
[22:54] <alkisg> Ahmuck_: to see clients before logon, you need to install it to the chroot.
[22:55] <Lns> Ahmuck_, no, everything is just dhcp for me. i don't use italc though
[22:56] <Ahmuck_> classroom --> autodetected computers does what?
[22:57] <alkisg> Displays autodetected clients
[22:57] <alkisg> (already logged on)
[23:03] <Ahmuck_> alkisg: i'm seeing two now.  after restart
[23:05] <alkisg> There's a wiki page for italc on ltsp.
[23:06] <pygi> is italc that weird win-like software?
[23:06] <Lns> heh, pygi that's what i thought too.. qt looks lots like windows
[23:06] <pygi> Lns: its not the qt that look like windows
[23:06] <pygi> I like qt in fact
[23:06] <pygi> its just the italc interface
[23:07] <Lns> well it is cross platform
[23:07] <nubae> yeah does look windowsy, maybe because theres a windows version too?
[23:08] <pygi> oh well
[23:08] <pygi> nubae: pidgin also has a win version, yet its the same as linux one
[23:09] <Lns> afaik italc isn't even being developed anymore
[23:09] <pygi> Lns: heh, really?
[23:10] <pygi> the we have no sane tool to use
[23:10] <pygi> (Not that italc was sane, but it was the closest to a working tool)
[23:10] <Lns> not saying it doesn't work
[23:11] <pygi> Lns: I know, but we can't shop something that isn't maintained
[23:11] <Lns> but i think the guy i'm working with to get tcm-ng looked into italc, he said the last commit was ~2007
[23:11] <Lns> that's how i feel too..that's why i wanted to make something better =)
[23:11] <nubae> last I checked the messaging from and to thin clients was done some time last year
[23:12] <nubae> towards the end
[23:12] <nubae> so think its still active
[23:12] <pygi> TCM-NG is in what language, and why did you make it look like italic? o.O
[23:12] <pygi> (sorry for being a bit harsh, but italics gui is really useless)
[23:12] <Lns> pygi, python and..huh?
[23:12] <Lns> we don't even have an interface for it yet =)
[23:12] <pygi> Lns: bleh xD
[23:13] <pygi> I misread your sentence
[23:13] <pygi> sorry xD
[23:13] <Lns> haha
[23:13] <pygi> I might see what's up with the code, is it any good :)
[23:13] <pygi> if you remind me next week
[23:14] <Lns> i dunno, ianap :) i'm contracting someone out to bring my "vision" to life ;)
[23:14] <pygi> Lns: tcm-ng seems to have 4 revisions, all by Pete? :p
[23:15] <Lns> pygi, no that was the older tcm
[23:15] <Lns> all we've done is put up a bzr
[23:15] <pygi> Lns: please be kind to link me up? :)
[23:15] <pygi> ah, so its empty? :)
[23:15] <Lns> the code is being reviewed
[23:15] <pygi> oki
[23:15] <pygi> tell me once its ready pls
[23:15] <Lns> it's far from anything useful at this point
[23:15] <Lns> lol
[23:15] <Lns> ok..will do.
[23:16] <pygi> (not for production, for reading code and being a critic :P)
[23:16] <Lns> sure
[23:16] <Lns> I'm sure we'll be announcing stuff hopefully sometime soon
[23:16] <Lns> if you're interested in keeping up, we have an #lns channel that we're collaborating on. I'm setting up a logbot right now
[23:17] <pygi> Lns: I am interested, but sadly you'll have to keep me updated
[23:17] <pygi> too much work going on in various areas to track one more :-/
[23:17] <Lns> it's ok, if its not a priority to you then its not to me that you are ;)
[23:17] <Ahmuck_> Lns: ur intent is to replace italc with something?
[23:18] <Lns> Ahmuck_, no, not really, although some functionality might overlap
[23:18] <Lns> tcm-ng aims to be ltsp specific
[23:18] <Ahmuck_> is it gpl ?
[23:18] <Lns> yup
[23:18] <Lns> of course!
[23:18] <pygi> GPL2 or 3? or 2 and later? :)
[23:18] <Ahmuck_> i'm interested in testing.  have a svn or git link ?
[23:18] <pygi> Ahmuck_: they use bzr :p
[23:18] <pygi> and he just told you its under consideration :)
[23:18] <Lns> gpl3
[23:18] <Ahmuck_> pygi: he's shown snapshots :)
[23:19] <pygi> Ahmuck_: photoshop, don't trust him :p
[23:19]  * pygi hides
[23:19] <Lns> Ahmuck_, https://launchpad.net/tcm-ng
[23:19] <Lns> i don't have screenshots.. ??
[23:20] <Lns> if you saw screenies those are from the old projects
[23:20] <nubae> Lns: u know I've documented how to set up eggdrop to log right?
[23:20] <Ahmuck_> hrm, maybe it was someone else in here deving something up for thin client manament
[23:20] <nubae> its on my website somwehere in case u need that
[23:20] <Lns> nubae, i mgiht look at that..just going through eggdrop.conf right now actually
[23:20]  * Ahmuck_ have to look at today's and yesterday's logs
[23:21] <nubae> its a biiig config file
[23:21] <Lns> yea it is
[23:21] <nubae> takes a  good 15 minutes just to skim through it
[23:22] <nubae> my eyes are hurting friom watching rpms scrolling by being made
[23:22] <nubae> I need to get to bed.... talk to u guys tomorrow... I'm happy to see so much activity on the channel
[23:23] <Lns> cool nubae, thx for all the involvement
[23:24] <nubae> and to u
[23:24] <nubae> even though we're still not considered edubuntu members lol
[23:24] <Lns> heh
[23:25] <Lns> oh well..i like being an 'outsider'
[23:25] <nubae> but u're not really, u're an insider without credit :-(
[23:25] <Lns> i don't want to be famous ;)
[23:26] <nubae> me either, but I want to be able to have the rights to do stuff with the project
[23:26] <Lns> srue
[23:26] <Lns> sure*
[23:27] <Lns> it'll come...patience grasshopper, haha
[23:28] <nubae> nah. yah... I've got to go to bed... bye bye
[23:28] <pygi> nubae: and being an edubuntu member gives you what rights more then you have now?
[23:33] <Ahmuck_> hrm, don't know if it's iTalc releated ... The ISD-Server could not be started because port 5800 is alrleady in use.  Please make sure that no other application is using this port and try again.  Logged my out and logged Guest in with this message just now.
[23:34] <Ahmuck_> well, ditching iTalc sounds like a good idea, though it did look like a promising piece of software for use
[23:35] <Lns> Ahmuck_, i had that same issue. there are particulars in getting it to work w/ltsp
[23:37] <Lns> Ahmuck_, http://italc.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php?title=ITALC_in_a_ThinClient_environment
[23:37] <Ahmuck_> i'm going to save the ubuntu 9.04 ltsp vm, and may working through it step by step and see what apps and tools work, but i've decided to look for something else.  i can't see that much came out of the meeting other than the same thing that happened on the mlist a couple of weeks ago
[23:37] <Ahmuck_> it's all so disorganized
[23:37] <Lns> Ahmuck_, look for something else?
[23:52] <Ahmuck_> nubae: u using opensuse-edu or edubuntu?