[00:48] <Svenstaro> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2009-May/002896.html
[01:27] <Ahmuck> Svenstaro: u here?
[01:43] <Svenstaro> Ahmuck am always.
[01:44] <Ahmuck_> Svenstaro: those are nice charts
[01:44] <Ahmuck_> very clear and well organized
[01:44] <Ahmuck_> what r u using to make them with?
[01:44] <Svenstaro> Dia of course.
[01:44] <Svenstaro> And thanks :)
[01:45] <Ahmuck_> ah, i haven't looked at dia for a while.  i'll peek again :)
[09:04] <skipjack> Hello PPl.
[09:05] <skipjack> ;) I have some trouble now with pulseaudio, it's running fine and after I think ~ 20 secs it's break and no sound is playing. vlc says me: [00000562] alsa audio output error: cannot write: Input/output error
[09:11] <skipjack> hello nubae
[10:03] <nubae> hi skipjack
[17:32] <skipjack> back ;)
[17:33] <skipjack> What can I do against pulseaudio which breaks after playing some Audio file (think 20secs, then it's killed.. )
[18:43] <highvoltage> INTERNETS!
[18:45] <LaserJock> highvoltage: hi
[18:45] <LaserJock> highvoltage: you in Barcelona now?
[18:45] <highvoltage> LaserJock: yep
[18:46] <highvoltage> LaserJock: been struggling with my wi-fi, eventually restarting the access point got it working again
[18:46] <LaserJock> highvoltage: ah
[18:47] <highvoltage> LaserJock:I charged my laptop last night until it says "will last 10 minutes when unplugged", but couldn't connect to the network again after that
[18:49] <highvoltage> LaserJock: just read the meeting minutes
[19:00]  * nubae feels we discussed pretty much the same stuff as in the previous meeting, but got a bit further this time
[19:00] <nubae> agreeing we can look into reverting to being a distro
[19:01] <nubae> Thats whay u wanted too isnt it highvoltage
[19:01] <nubae> ?
[19:02] <highvoltage> nubae: among other things, yes
[19:03] <nubae> well we just need to figure out who is doing what
[19:03] <nubae> now
[19:03] <highvoltage> nubae: I do feel good about the renweed enthusiasm in Edubuntu
[19:03] <nubae> I wont have much time to concentrate on edubuntu until next month though
[19:03] <nubae> yeah me too, it really does seem like there was an influx of new folks wanting to do something
[19:03] <nubae> time will tell if they follow through or not
[19:04] <highvoltage> nubae: I think we need to assertain quite fast what the technical challenges will be around an edubuntu distro, and figure out whether we're going full-distro in 9.10 or 10.04(LTS)
[19:05] <nubae> well I think it makes more sense to concentrate on just LTSes for an edu distro
[19:05] <nubae> since schools dont want to upgrade all the time
[19:05] <highvoltage> nubae: it's all very nice wanting a full distro, but we absolutely need enough people to commit to make that happen, from my side I can commit to test each alhpa and beta and the release candidate builds, but probably not so much daily builds and all the other inbetweens
[19:05] <highvoltage> nubae: *nod*
[19:06] <nubae> that way we can move with the ubuntu LTSes, but still addon software when and where... I believe we shouldn't be limited by a 6 month release cycle
[19:06] <highvoltage> nubae: perhaps one of edubuntu's tasks shouls also be to backport edu stuff to LTS
[19:06] <highvoltage> nubae: *nod*
[19:07] <nubae> yeah.... so we start by being in alpha for a couple of months, 6 months even, then beta for 3 months and then we go RC 1 month before release, something like that
[19:09] <highvoltage> well, we can't be alpha for a release that doesn't exist yet
[19:09] <highvoltage> ie, we can't go in an alpha for LTS when work on the LTS hasn't started yet
[19:10] <highvoltage> although we can start working on the stuff for the next release
[19:10] <nubae> From my end, I've already researched a bunch of nice universe software that we can put in... so it needs further testing.... then we have the server parts of the iso (LAMP, moodle, mahara, koha, etc), Sugar platform, kde 4 platform, gnome platform, and then LTSP and other forms of mass deployment
[19:10] <nubae> well... our alpha can be 9.10
[19:10] <highvoltage> nubae: awesome
[19:10] <highvoltage> nubae: well we have to release *something* for 9.10 :)
[19:10] <nubae> so throughout 9.10 we are just testing, we never release anything...
[19:11] <highvoltage> hmm, I don't think that's a good idea
[19:11] <nubae> well, then it will be another addon I guess
[19:11] <highvoltage> even if it's just an add-on it would be better than releasing nothing
[19:11] <nubae> the addon is not going away
[19:11] <nubae> is what I mean
[19:11] <highvoltage> ok cool
[19:11] <nubae> in fact thats a good way
[19:12] <nubae> so for regular releases we just release an addon cd
[19:12] <nubae> and for LTSes we relase an iso
[19:12] <nubae> how about that?
[19:13] <highvoltage> that sounds good
[19:14] <nubae> that way we are still always progerssing, but during non LTSes we release maybe incremental updates to the iso... like .1, .2, .3
[19:16] <nubae> like we have for ubuntu LTS releases, but also an add on cd that is created and re-considered every 6 months
[19:16] <nubae> think it makes it easier to maintain
[19:17] <nubae> like u said, we dont have the people to go with the 6 month release cycle all the time, but since gnome and sugar and kde all have 6 month release cycles, at least we can release updates via 9.10.1, etc
[19:18] <alkisg> Can many DE's be installed from the same live dvd?
[19:18] <nubae> sure
[19:18] <alkisg> Which distro does that?
[19:18] <nubae> opensuse for one
[19:18] <alkisg> It uses the same dvd? Not different ones?
[19:19] <nubae> fedora does too I believe
[19:19] <nubae> same dvd
[19:19] <nubae> but only one version is live I guess
[19:19] <alkisg> Hmmm we should look into casper...
[19:20] <nubae> or ?... now u've got me questioning... I know opensuse-edu is both gnome and sugar at least
[19:20] <nubae> and some other window manager too if I recall correctly
[19:20] <nubae> but u're given the option to install kde
[19:21] <alkisg> OK we'll read about casper to see what's supported and what not
[19:21] <nubae> the main thing is, we have to figure out how to sync with the various teams, since our content will have a lot of overlap
[19:21] <nubae> for example, we'll overlap with studio with the art, sound, and video stuff
[19:21] <nubae> we'll overlap with server with LTSP, LAMP and moodle
[19:22] <nubae> we'll overlap with regular ubuntu for our live image
[19:22] <nubae> and xubuntu and kubuntu for kde and xfce
[19:22] <nubae> so... we just have to figure out how to handle all that
[19:22] <nubae> after all we are building a lateral product
[19:22] <alkisg> OK, I'm just worried that a live dvd is very very different than an add-on
[19:22] <nubae> mint is a distro that does that kind of
[19:23] <nubae> we could talk to them
[19:23] <nubae> alkisg: it is :-)
[19:23] <nubae> :d
[19:23] <nubae> though it is really just live dvd +addon
[19:23] <nubae> to begin with at least
[19:23] <nubae> we'll probably just have a casper system + the addon
[19:24] <nubae> then decide whats of most importance to add... which will probably be LTSP and Lamp
[19:24] <nubae> then build from there, like lego
[19:24] <alkisg> I hope Svenstaro has some time to look at the installer stuff, I won't have time for it for another month.
[19:25] <alkisg> And we should put up a wiki with what gets in, who maintains it etc
[19:26] <nubae> yep... well that part is relatively easy.... we need to worry about a roadmap really
[19:26] <nubae> when/what/where
[19:26] <alkisg> If the first release will be 10.04, we got a lot of time :)
[19:27] <nubae> so LTS, beginning with addoncd+live (that could be released for 9.10 maybe)
[19:27] <nubae> then the real product in 10.04
[19:27] <nubae> yeah, but time goes fast man
[19:27] <nubae> don't understimate how fast we'll be sitting here going ok, so that was release day
[19:28] <alkisg> Addon cd + live? I thought "just" addon cd for non-lts releases...
[19:28] <nubae> well, the live part is still of great benefit
[19:28] <nubae> as users can then use the product right away
[19:28] <alkisg> So why an add-on then, and not just the live part?
[19:28] <nubae> and there isn't that much difference between live+addon and addon work wise
[19:29] <nubae> well its both live and contains the addons
[19:29] <pygi> oh, still singing the old same song? :-P
[19:29] <nubae> call it whatever u like
[19:29] <alkisg> I don't get it! So, what do we want for 9.04, a live cd and another, add-on cd? A live dvd + an addon cd? What?
[19:29] <pygi> we want a working community
[19:30] <alkisg> Wishful thinking...
[19:31] <pygi> alkisg: heh
[19:33] <nubae> ah no, just one cd
[19:33] <nubae> live+addon
[19:33] <nubae> just a live cd that contains the addons
[19:33] <nubae> make sense?
[19:33] <alkisg> Won't fit on a cd
[19:33] <alkisg> So dvd...
[19:33] <nubae> yeah it will, if we take out localisation
[19:33] <nubae> :p
[19:34]  * nubae runs....
[19:34] <nubae> who needs greek on the cd anyway :p
[19:35] <alkisg> Bah... even the dvd doens't have it :)
[19:36] <nubae> but wasnt edubuntu one cd before?
[19:37] <alkisg> Yeah, but with problems in fitting, and without addons
[19:37] <alkisg> So it won't fit with the addons
[19:37] <nubae> not that it matters, might as well be a dvd
[19:37] <nubae> so that its an image that can be written to dvd or usb stick
[19:37] <nubae> I think cd is kind of a thing of the past anyway
[19:38] <nubae> I mean a school server needs to have a dvd or a usb at least right?
[19:38] <alkisg> Yeah, I don't think there's any PC without a DVD drive that can run ubuntu :)
[19:38] <nubae> the clients can be older, but thats where ltsp comes in
[19:39] <nubae> u realise that by making the dvd come with ltsp, we are guiding users into the right way to setup a school environment too
[19:39] <nubae> basically u tell them not to install it on old machines, but to use LTSP
[19:39] <alkisg> LTSP is really really easy for administration - once you set it up, that is
[19:40] <alkisg> ...both normal/localapps/fat clients
[19:40] <nubae> yep... I think its the right way to go about it... many people might not know about LTSP but still know about using linux in schools, and now they will learn both
[19:40] <nubae> yeah
[19:41] <alkisg> Well... if ltsp can be demonstrated from a live dvd/usb, it'll be easier for teachers to see if they want it or not.
[19:49] <nubae> indeed
[19:49] <nubae> that is what kiwi-ltsp has done and it works quite well
[19:55]  * LaserJock finishes reading back-scroll
[19:55] <LaserJock> I think it's going to be really tough to do this
[19:56] <LaserJock> I don't know how doing LTS-only is going to work
[19:56] <nubae> be more specific?
[19:56] <LaserJock> and right now we don't have much of a capability of choosing DEs at install-time
[19:56] <nubae> well why not, where do u see the problems?
[19:56] <LaserJock> the problem is that nobody else does it in Ubuntu
[19:57] <LaserJock> it takes a lot of release team coordination I think
[19:57] <nubae> nobody else does what?
[19:57] <LaserJock> either
[19:57] <LaserJock> everybody does 6-month releases
[19:57] <nubae> not everybody
[19:58] <LaserJock> and nobody does much choosing at install time
[19:58] <nubae> or do u mean everybody within the ubuntu sphere?
[19:58] <LaserJock> yes
[19:58] <LaserJock> within Ubuntu
[19:58] <nubae> well, then thats what makes us different ;-)
[19:59] <LaserJock> yeah, but different == hard
[20:00] <LaserJock> if people are going to be around and dedicated to maintaining it could work
[20:00] <nubae> LTSP was/is hard
[20:00] <nubae> this is easier
[20:00] <LaserJock> I would disagree slightly
[20:01] <LaserJock> LTSP is/was hard
[20:01] <LaserJock> but changing everything around and having it work can be difficult
[20:01] <nubae> its just that its been totally automated now (installation)
[20:01] <nubae> that is even harder to do
[20:01] <nubae> automate installation like that
[20:02] <nubae> anyway, we'll just have to see what happens, right?
[20:02] <LaserJock> yeah
[20:02] <nubae> if people follow through or not, and its not just the 3 or 4 of us again
[20:02] <LaserJock> but I think we should look at feasibility
[20:02] <LaserJock> like
[20:02] <nubae> cause obviously if its just the 3 or 4 of us, then its not gonna happen
[20:03] <alkisg> Wow! I've heard that alt+ctrl+backspace was removed from recent xorg, but I didn't know they substituted it with the "Brightness up" key :P :(
[20:03] <LaserJock> sometimes you can compromise to get something that's working rather than banging your head against a wall over and over
[20:03] <LaserJock> it's unlikely that much can be done with the installer
[20:03] <nubae> alkisg: thank god in open suse its still there, but u have to hit it 2 times quickly
[20:03] <LaserJock> perhaps the best we could do is to not use a LiveCD installer
[20:03] <LaserJock> alkisg: you can turn it back on if you want
[20:04] <nubae> that kind of defeats the purpose then LaserJock
[20:04] <alkisg> I was just joking, my X crashed when I tried to increase the brightness... :( :(
[20:04] <LaserJock> oh
[20:04] <LaserJock> nubae: I know, but I'm not sure how a LiveCD installer would work
[20:05] <LaserJock> we could have a LiveCD component for demo'ing
[20:05] <nubae> well other distros seem to do that easily enough
[20:05] <nubae> cant be more difficult on ubuntu/debian
[20:05] <LaserJock> umm, yes it can
[20:05] <LaserJock> those other distros have teams of people working on the installers
[20:05] <LaserJock> we'd have to either patch the heck out of ubiquity or use anaconda or whatever openSUSE is using
[20:06] <LaserJock> anaconda isn't really an option
[20:06] <LaserJock> so forking ubiquity might be the only way to do it if you wan installer options
[20:07] <LaserJock> so it  might make more sense to pick a DE
[20:07] <LaserJock> then have .debs in a pool on the DVD for installation later
[20:08] <LaserJock> I don't know how you can install LTSP off of a LIveCD either
[20:09] <alkisg> That's easy, it's just preinstalled like everything else :P
[20:09] <LaserJock> preinstalled, but not configured
[20:10] <alkisg> It should be able to run live, so everything should be automatic
[20:10] <alkisg> (except for lts.conf options etc which are always manual)
[20:11] <LaserJock> right, but I don't think that will exactly work without a lot of changes
[20:11] <LaserJock> right now it looks at if you're running 1 nic or 2 right?
[20:11] <alkisg> I've done it, it doesn't need a lot of changes
[20:11] <alkisg> No, that's the alternate cd
[20:11] <LaserJock> I know
[20:11] <LaserJock> but what I'm saying is we lose that
[20:11] <alkisg> We won't use that
[20:12] <alkisg> We'll make it work with either 1 or 2 nics, with either an existing dhcp server or not etc
[20:12] <alkisg> I'll do that first, in the summer.
[20:12] <LaserJock> and how will it know that?
[20:12] <alkisg> Try to get an ip, if it gets one then a dhcp server is present
[20:12] <alkisg> (there's an option to fake asking for an ip)
[20:13] <LaserJock> ok, well if you can get it working without any configuration then it could work
[20:13] <LaserJock> but it's not drop-in right now
[20:13] <alkisg> I'm not worrying about that... the DE thing troubles me more
[20:13] <alkisg> (I don't need multiple DEs, I'm just worried :))
[20:13] <nubae> alkisg and I can do the bash stuff no problem
[20:14] <nubae> thats where our strengths lie
[20:14] <nubae> but we're neither of us packagers I guess
[20:14] <LaserJock> right
[20:15] <LaserJock> I'm just pointing out that the LTSP you install is going to the LTSP that get built from the build machine's configuration or what's preseeded
[20:15] <nubae> right, we preseed a base environment
[20:15] <nubae> like other distros do
[20:15] <LaserJock> so you don't get the advantage of the postinst maintainer scripts that we normally  use
[20:16] <LaserJock> the multiple DE's is basically out for the foreseeable future
[20:16] <alkisg> afaik, ubuiquity can run scripts on certain installation steps...
[20:16] <nubae> well sugar will be in there without problems
[20:17] <LaserJock> sure
[20:17] <LaserJock> but we can't choose DEs
[20:17]  * alkisg doesn't mind about DEs
[20:17] <nubae> yeah me either so much
[20:18] <alkisg> A "wizard" or something to install them after installation would be more than enough....
[20:18] <LaserJock> the disk space issue will be a problem
[20:18] <LaserJock> it would be less of an issue if the existing addon .iso was being replaced
[20:19] <LaserJock> right now Ubuntu + Addon is ~ 1GB
[20:20] <alkisg> But many teachers download another Gb after that
[20:20] <alkisg> From the same canonical servers...
[20:20] <LaserJock> I would say that 1 GB should be a rough target
[20:21] <alkisg> That would leave live ltsp out, the image is about 200Mb
[20:21] <LaserJock> oh, you're putting the client chroot on there too?
[20:22] <alkisg> *only* that
[20:22] <alkisg> The compressed image, not the chroot
[20:22] <alkisg> The chroot will be generated by uncompressing the image to save disk space
[20:22] <alkisg> As a postinst action
[20:22] <LaserJock> so the image is 200MB?
[20:22] <alkisg> Yes
[20:22] <LaserJock> geeze, that's quite a lot
[20:22] <alkisg> The chroot is much bigger
[20:23] <alkisg> Usually 500mb is downloaded from canonical server to build an ltsp chroot
[20:23] <alkisg> So that actually saves bandwidth if half of the people using edubuntu also use ltsp
[20:24] <nubae> LaserJock: the opensuse-edu dvd is 2.2 gigs
[20:24] <nubae> thats about realistic
[20:24] <LaserJock> well, that's quite a lot
[20:24] <nubae> not really
[20:24] <LaserJock> it is in terms of disk usage
[20:24] <LaserJock> edubuntu takes up ~ 350MB now
[20:24] <nubae> if u take a look, its still just about the minimum for schoolserver, edu apps, etc
[20:24] <LaserJock> jumping from that to 2.2GB is a rather big jump
[20:25] <nubae> kiwi-ltsp alone is probably a good 300 mb
[20:25] <LaserJock> for the first iteration
[20:25] <LaserJock> you have Ubuntu + Addon + LTSP client chroot
[20:25] <LaserJock> so that would be 1.3GB
[20:28] <LaserJock> do you guys know how to work with seed and ubiquity at all?
[20:28] <LaserJock> *seeds
[20:29]  * alkisg doesn't
[20:29] <alkisg> I've only played with debconf one afternoon
[20:30] <alkisg> And packaged some apps of mine and uploaded them to my PPA.. and that's about all I've done with installers and packaging
[20:30] <LaserJock> debconf is no fun :-)
[20:30] <alkisg> But I've experiense in NSIS (windows installer) :P
[20:33] <LaserJock> you can get the edubuntu seeds by: bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/edubuntu.karmic/
[20:33] <LaserJock> the .iso is created by ubuntu-cdimage which uses debian-cd, you can get bzr branches of those as well
[20:34] <LaserJock> bzr branch http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bzr/debian-cd/ubuntu/
[20:34] <LaserJock> bzr branch lp:~cjwatson/ubuntu-cdimage/mainline/
[20:35] <alkisg> Both me and nubae will have time to start with edubuntu a month from now... So I think it would be a good idea if Svenstaro tried to get familiar with the building process..
[20:35] <nubae> btw cyberorg tells me that opensuse build service can generate src debs and debs
[20:36] <nubae> so we can use that to get the sugar packages
[20:36] <LaserJock> perhaps
[20:36] <LaserJock> I'd have to check out the src package
[20:36] <nubae> he says that it uses debian/ubuntu's own tools for the process
[20:36] <LaserJock> normally automated source packages need tweaking
[20:36] <nubae> so it should be completely within policy
[20:36] <LaserJock> well
[20:37] <LaserJock> debian/ubuntu's tools don't make packages compliant with policy
[20:37] <LaserJock> the packager does
[20:37] <LaserJock> but it could be once it gets set up it'll be automagic goodness
[20:37] <LaserJock> but it's indeed cool that OBS can do all that
[20:37] <LaserJock> it's a rather amazing tool
[20:39] <nubae> yep, it even builds isos
[20:39] <nubae> so we could in theory use that
[20:39] <nubae> its gpl
[20:39] <nubae> so it could be the edubuntu build service
[20:39] <nubae> something to think about
[20:39] <LaserJock> I'm not sure how well that would work with Ubuntu stuff
[20:40] <LaserJock> it seems like it would be prone to edubuntu-only bugs that we probably wouldn't want to have to deal with
[20:40] <LaserJock> but again, it rocks that openSUSE has done that
[20:40] <LaserJock> it's very much the kind of thing Mark has wanted to do with Launchpad for ages
[20:41] <nubae> its worth thinking about and studying at least... if does generate isos on the fly that would be way neat
[20:42] <nubae> not sure how much underlying suse only tech there is in there, but since its gpl, it can be modified and used for other things
[20:43] <LaserJock> nubae: have you built any .isos with it yet (can't remember from previous conversations)
[20:46] <nubae> yes I build the sugar suse iso with it
[20:46] <nubae> its as easy as defining a file with all the packages I want
[20:47] <nubae> and then doing osc bl i586
[20:47] <nubae> inside the repo's directory
[21:38] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: I'll contact the students team now :)
[21:39] <LaserJock> great
[21:39] <bencrisford1> ill just check for new replies about it on the mailing list first