[00:17] MianoSM: except that webmin is not "supported" by ubuntu, while ebox is [00:19] Due to debians standards? [00:19] standards? [00:19] due to ebox working cleanly with configs, and webmin not, I believe [00:19] Or policy [00:20] !webmin [00:20] webmin is no longer supported in Debian and Ubuntu. It is not compatible with the way that Ubuntu packages handle configuration files, and is likely to cause unexpected issues with your system. See !ebox instead. [00:20] so no, I don't think it's a free software issue [00:20] it's just a functionality issue [00:20] http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-files.html#s-config-files [00:20] It is because of how webmin handles the config files, and when debian dropped the "support" as did Ubuntu. :( [00:21] right ... webmin is awful anyhow [00:21] In your opinion. [00:21] what else does one state? [00:21] Facts. [00:22] haha, not really [00:22] but anyway [00:23] I believe at the moment there are more plugins available for the wm users as well, has ebox caught up yet? [00:24] I believe you can count the number of people in this room who use a web gui on one hand [00:24] I definitely don't [00:24] (so I don't know) [00:24] I don't either, however, I do teach younger system administrators... [00:24] hopefully you aren't encouraging them to use web guis ... [00:24] and quite a few of them enjoy having a visual reference above and beyond CLI that they eventually and inevitably come to enjoy. [00:25] I don't encourage anyone to use a web gui if they are going to administrate a server, no. [00:25] but you support web guis in your "teaching"? [00:25] I just like to keep an open mind [00:26] and when they say: "Is there any other way that I could view X, aside from the command line?" I have answers [00:26] Just like when people say: "I use windows", I don't shun and insult or make petty jokes about it either. [00:27] We all have our opinions and choices to make, and what suits one will not suit all. It's really what brought about Linux if you think about it. ;) [00:28] of course, but equally weighting methods which the vast majority of professional linux administrators would agree are bunk and ones which are widely used is an unfortunate occurrence in "teaching" [00:30] If people want a shortcut, they are either going to find out on their own, or you can hopefully guide them. I used eBox myself, and when I first started managing my own personal server I used webmin. It was comforting for the transition [00:31] but eventually the training wheels gotta come off, might as well start woth CLI [00:32] Of course, you just can't beat a person without telling them why you are beating them. ;) [00:32] discussing GUIs is fine ... but supporting students in using them is a mistake [00:32] it's what's bred the large army of incompetent modern linux admins [00:32] it's like driving a car, if you start out on a standard shift, you can always move to an automatic, but vice-versa is not as easy [00:33] Really? [00:33] Starting at the hardest level and then moving down to easier levels, seems a little odd. [00:33] I know I didn't start at the 12th grade, and finish at the 1st ;) [00:33] MianoSM: right ... nobody does that, that's the point [00:34] MianoSM: in 1st grade they didn't teach you 12th grade material with pretty pictures instead of text [00:34] I started by adding apples in one hand to apples in the other. [00:34] I'm certainly not advocating throwing a student into a pit with no instruction [00:34] sink or swim [00:35] but giving the wrong instruction at the early stage is a crtical mistake, and very difficult to undo, as GullyFoyle pointed out [00:35] These are windows admins transitioning to a linux environment, or even worse, windows users transitioning to linux administration, training wheels help out greatly. [00:35] MianoSM: well we clearly differ on that [00:36] There are always lash backs, and repercussions for wrong instruction. [00:36] what windows admins need is to relearn everything from scratch rather than "transition" [00:36] I just feel as though you seem very closed minded. [00:36] eBox, or Nothing! [00:36] don't use something that is unsupported!!! [00:36] I'm not an advocate of ebox at all [00:36] I've never used it [00:36] I don't use web guis, nor would I ever teach them [00:37] so how would you really know if ebox or webmin would suit someone better? [00:37] because it isn't about suiting someone better [00:37] that's how I approach this [00:37] ok mebbe i was trolling a bit. let's try another analogy; do you teach your kids to add and subtract by handing them a calculator? [00:38] depends on the situation [00:38] oh boy [00:38] GullyFoyle: Do you teach them advanced multivariable calculus first ? [00:38] this is hopeless [00:38] the last two finance courses i took taught to both use a financial calc, a spreadsheet, and the long way [00:39] MianoSM: if you hand someone a tool to do a function they do not understand first, you should be stripped of your teaching title [00:39] in any subject [00:39] So judging. [00:39] giovani: So noone can be given a computer to use until they fully understand all of it? Interesting approach... [00:39] I'll be back in a bit, sorry to leave while the convo was just getting good. :( [00:39] judging on content ... that's the right kind of judging [00:40] jmarsden: if the subject you're teaching them is the workings of a computer ... absolutely not -- which is why computers are not used in Computer Science 101 [00:40] or 102 [00:40] or 103 [00:40] etc [00:42] hmm, another analogy, is my kid "playing" the piano when he pushes the demo button on his electric keyboard and it plays a tune? [00:43] I certainly used computers in my first year of undergraduate Computer Science study... back in 1980-1981... [00:43] GullyFoyle: No, but he did just learn one small part of the UI of that keyboard. [00:43] jmarsden: as part of the teaching? [00:43] and i'm not saying he should learn advanced polytonal harmonies or whatever before he learns to play an instrument [00:44] but learning to admin throught the CLI is like learning basic scales and chords and simple tunes first on your instrument. [00:44] giovani: I didn't teach the classes... but yes. From memory, we were taught Pascal, and PDP assembler, and also basic computer architecture and so forth... in parallel, during that first year. [00:45] jmarsden: that would be a poorly planned cirriculum, imo [00:51] Can any wireless device be a MASTER(Access point) on Ubuntu server? [00:56] New bug: #380087 in openldap (main) "package slapd 2.4.15-1ubuntu3 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/380087 [00:57] fbc-mx: the device must support the mode [00:58] fbc-mx: as much of wireless communication is offloaded into the card, not all contained in the driver [00:58] fbc-mx: do you have a particular card you'd like to use? [01:00] giovani, not really I found a USB wireless stick and plugged it in to the back of my box and tried to set master mode, I suspected that it might not be supported with every device, hence the question. [01:00] fbc-mx: I believe every major chipset supports it, what driver is in use, and/or what chipset is it, if you know? [01:01] giovani, I have another wirless device laying around in a drawer somewhere I'm gonna try it out in a minute. [01:13] fbc-mx: any luck? [01:17] giovani, dunno it's a digius dn-7003gs [01:17] ok, iirc, that's a Realtek chipset [01:17] giovani, I guess I can use it for a CAN-tenna project is it has no master mode. [01:18] it should support master mode [01:18] it has a Realtek 8187L chipset [01:21] giovani, I don't understand then,, I did an Ifdown beofre making changes to it... [01:22] fbc-mx: hold on, I'm talking to some people who know more about this than I do [01:23] ok, I'm being told that the card supports master mode, but the driver doesn't support putting it into that mode [01:23] if you'd really like to use that card for an AP, you can use the windows driver for it through ndiswrapper [01:24] or google around to see if someone has master/ap mode working with the kernel driver [01:24] giovani, hahaha, that's great...About as useless as a solar powered flash light. [01:24] fbc-mx: useless? hardly, just because it doesn't go into master mode ... it has other uses [01:24] that chipset supports monitor mode, and injection [01:24] handy for all sorts of wireless fun [01:24] giovani, sorry, I meant for this purpose... [01:24] fbc-mx: like I said, you can use the windows driver in linux via ndiswrapper [01:25] http://my.opera.com/CrazyTerabyte/blog/linux-ehci-hcd-rtl8187 [01:25] someone documented their efforts here [01:25] giovani, yeah, I think that ?ll be using it in my cantenna project then.. I don't want to get too deep in drivers and related just to make it work... [01:25] fbc-mx: pretty much anything but straight up wireless client use requires digging around with drivers in linux, honestly === Sam-I-Am_ is now known as Sam-I-Am === Pici` is now known as Pici [03:14] hi, my server keeps crashing. i have to keep sending a reboot signal to it. Does anybody know where the logs are for figuring out why it keeps going down? what should i check first? [03:16] quizme: /var/log is where all logs go - there are a few different files in it. [03:17] If you find something that seems related, but doesn't have enough detail, you can tell the logging daemon to up the logging verbosity. [03:17] tonyyarusso: what should i check first? apache? [03:17] it seems like a pretty hard problem [03:17] RAM might be running out [03:17] quizme: Depends on what the server's running and whether you have any data points to work from (like "I changed foo and then the problem started...") [03:18] disk might be running out [03:18] it's been doing it the past week [03:18] every few days i have to give it a reboot [03:18] You can keep an eye on RAM and disk by just setting up watch commands and seeing what they do right before you lose contact. [03:18] 'watch free -m' for RAM, 'watch df -h' for disk. [03:19] ok [03:19] By default watch updates every two seconds, modifiable with -n [03:19] that's handy [03:19] thanks [03:19] In terms of logs I'd start with syslog and messages [03:20] it's weird to me [03:20] servers are so complex it's like trying to diagnose a patient at a hospital [03:20] I'd agree with that analogy. [03:21] Especially if you just inherited control of the server from someone else so you don't know its history. If you've been working on it for a while you at least have some idea what might be going on. Kind of like cars. [03:22] so to make watch work even after i logout, i can do something like 'nohup watch free -m 1>2 ram.log' ? [03:23] 'nohup watch free -m 1>2 ram.log &' [03:23] ? [03:24] You could do it that way. I usually run my processes like that within screen instead of with nohup. [03:25] oh... watch .... ok i get it [03:25] But watch wouldn't write to a log - it's just updates a display so you can literally watch it in real time. [03:25] ya watch is for real time [03:25] If you want to log it just write a script with a loop to write to the log with a timestamp every so often. [03:26] ok [03:26] i see [03:27] i think it's cuz i'm running an unstable version of phusion passenger maybe [03:28] n. [03:28] anyone succesful with using python-vmbuilder with bridged networkign that can help me get my guest os to see the lan? I can ping my guest, but it cannt see the lan [03:29] i found a setup that works, but it uses a custom br-ifup script and tap. id liek to figure out how to use simplest templated setup possible [03:33] giovani: yup, thanks :) [03:54] trying again to build vm, since i think br0 is right now [03:55] once i get this figured out, looking forward to this. anyone using kvm in production? [03:55] slestak_: you mean the little hardware piece? [03:56] MTecknology: no, the libvirt hypervisor kvm [04:15] giovani, the other wireless NIC I found is a Bus 005 Device 003: ID 03eb:7614 Atmel Corp. AT76c505a Wireless Adapter, but it won't go into master mode either. [04:16] giovani, how would I find a list of card that will go into master mode natively. === genii-2 is now known as genii-around [06:43] is it possible create an answer file and include it into a CD to install Ubuntu? [06:43] Similar to winnt.sif for Windows [06:58] that is called "preseeding", and it is copiously documented in the installation guide. [06:58] (In one of the appendices.) [06:59] I don't know if it's available for Ubiquity, but certainly it works fine on the alternate and server installs. [07:08] thanks, and you can preseed in a CD itself? Put CD in and it'll auto install ? [07:14] Yes. [07:15] Though it would be more common to use a USB key for that [07:15] Or better, PXE (netboot) install. [07:15] Note that the preseed file can be provided on a different medium, e.g. on an HTTP server. [08:38] which revision control tool would you recommend for tracking OpenOffice.org *.odt files? [08:38] blobs in RC - anyone have any opinions? [08:42] svn or bazaar; any opinions about which would be better for blobs (OO.org files, jpg's)? [09:00] whats up fellows [09:00] i need help with proftpd [09:01] anyone out there? [09:01] holla [09:03] need help with proftpd.. anyone? [09:05] sry bubba - afk a moment - what's up w/ proftpd? (not an expert, but willing) [09:06] i am trying to change the default index.html using an ftp client but cant get the permission [09:07] and i use my administration login so I dont understand why I cant manipulate the files remotely [09:07] what are the perms as listed in the client? [09:08] you can 'ls -l' inside most ftp clients [09:08] it was 644 but went ahead and changed it in the client side with no avail [09:08] it'll tell you permssions [09:08] are you sure the admin account is enabled for FTP? [09:09] i think so but how do i make sure of that? [09:09] bubba: sure the file is owned by the user you're logging in w/? [09:09] you'd have to take a look at the config file - [09:10] also, if the account is listed in /etc/ftpusers, it's NOT ALLOWED [09:10] hmm [09:11] anyone have an opinion about which RCS to use for blobs? OpenOffice files, jpg maps, etc? CVS would loose it's mind... [09:13] root is listed in /etc/ftpusers [09:13] then root may not use FTP [09:15] need I delete that? [09:16] production server? [09:16] I wouldn't [09:16] i'd advise against it [09:16] if you need to get to the file, i'd ssh in, change it's owner, copy it down, edit, copy back, reset owner [09:17] i wouldn't change /etc/ftpusers lightly [09:18] ok I will try that [09:18] bubba, any particular reason your using ftp? [09:32] not working [09:34] if you just installed proftpd and want to change the default index.html via a ftp client unsuccesfully, what would you do? [09:35] kapit bahai are you still there? [09:36] no idea. I avoid ftp like plauge. [09:36] you are not kidding [09:37] i am using ftp because the server has no gnome [09:37] whats wrong with scp? [09:38] or rsync, for big transfers [09:38] scp? rsync? [09:39] yes. commands to move files around [09:40] ok. well let me give that a shot [09:45] scp is your good friend, really... [09:51] do i need to uninstall proftpd from the server then? [09:52] was this the only reason you have it on there? [09:52] yep [09:53] then, to minimize the amount of programs that could respond to outside requests, I'd definitely get rid of proftpd [09:54] alright thanks a mil [09:56] still the same deal the server wont let me delete the default index.html [09:56] ssh normally doesn't allow root to login either - who owns the file? [09:57] the admin [09:58] all you need to do is delete this file, right? [09:58] yes and replace it with my own index.htm [09:59] what is the name of your non-admin account on the box? [10:00] i am inside /var/www/ and keeps saying permission denied [10:00] is it mysql that is denying me access? [10:00] two questions: 1 - who are you logged in as? 2 - what user:group owns the index.html file? [10:02] i am logged in as the administrator and the index.html file is the default file that reads "It Works" when you initially setup mysql [10:02] you're logged in as "root", right? [10:03] 'the administrator' doesn't tell me which account you're using - you can set it to anything... [10:03] correct. how do i dbl chech that. excuse the ignorance [10:03] type the command 'whoami' and hit enter [10:04] that's who you're logged in as [10:04] type it in where? [10:04] how are you logged into the remote machine? via ssh? [10:05] correct [10:06] so, you've got a terminal open and you're on the remote machine in that terminal? right? [10:06] i downloaded th scp client and put in all the info into it [10:06] correct [10:06] which scp client? [10:06] winscp [10:07] ah - you're doing this from a Windows machine? [10:07] yes [10:07] connected to a ubuntu server [10:07] now i understand - are you comfortable with DOS or the command-line? [10:07] yes [10:08] can you install PuTTY instead? [10:08] use that to sign into the server? [10:08] ok [10:11] putty will give you a command-line, which is *much* more powerful [10:12] ok i signed in on it [10:12] you've got a blinking prompt, yes? [10:12] yes i already logged in [10:13] whoami will tell you the username you're signed on as - it is most likely not going to be 'root'... [10:13] ls [10:13] yes it says bubba [10:14] pwd will tell you the directory (folder) you're currently sitting in - where are you? [10:14] home/bubba [10:15] where is the file you want to replace? [10:15] /var/www? [10:15] its in /var/www/ [10:16] let's find out who owns it - try the command 'ls -l' (no quotes) [10:16] let's find out who owns it - try the command 'ls -l /var/www' (no quotes) [10:16] sorry about that [10:17] there will be a column where you'll see owner:group listed... [10:17] root [10:17] probably, it'll be root:root [10:17] there you go [10:18] so, to become the root user, run the command 'sudo bash' (no quotes) [10:18] the prompt will change from $ to # [10:18] ok there i am [10:18] it did [10:18] cd /var/www [10:19] ok [10:20] you've got options here - you can either 1) change the index.html file to be owned by bubba, or 2) just make a backup and clear the space for the new version of the file... I'd recommend the later [10:21] i will opt for tha latter but how do i change the ownership [10:22] if you wanted to change that file to be owned by the user 'bubba', you could 'chown bubba:bubba index.html' (no quotes) [10:22] oh ok [10:23] for the 2nd option, 'mv index.html index.html.backup' (no quotes) [10:24] k [10:24] now, on your Windows box, you've got a replacement for that index.html file, right? [10:24] so, to become the root user, run the command 'sudo bash' (no quotes) <- if you must suggest dropping to a shell, please use sudo -i [10:25] Kamping_Kaiser- point taken... :) [10:25] :) [10:26] still with us, bubba? [10:27] oh yeah. i am waiting for you to say something [10:27] you've got a replacement file on your Windows machine, right? [10:27] yes i do [10:28] you can fire up winscp and drop it into /home/bubba - then, move it to the destination folder (/var/www) and chown it to root:root... [10:29] leave the putty session open [10:29] ok [10:30] bubba, can i ask why you want to change the file in /var/www/ ? would you be served just as well by using $HOME/public_html/ [10:30] you'll have to move it over with the putty commandline - as well as changing the owner [10:31] and i did [10:31] who owns the file in /var/www? [10:31] huh? [10:32] LOL [10:32] who owns the file you just put in /var/www? [10:33] you mean the replacement index.html? [10:33] yes [10:33] bubba [10:33] that's no good - the original file was owned by root:root [10:33] change the ownership to root:root [10:34] then I guess that who owns it. how deo i verify [10:34] then I guess that who owns it. how do i verify [10:34] 'ls -l /var/www' (no quotes) [10:35] in putty right? [10:35] yes sir - winscp doesn't allow you to type anything [10:36] ok what i got was root root with the backup file on it [10:36] the replacement isn't in /var/www yet? [10:37] i am not seeing it. [10:37] where did you copy it with winscp? [10:38] copied it into /var/www but i did not chown it. didnt know how [10:38] the winscp program only knows how to sign on as bubba - it cannot land files into /var/www [10:38] you'll have to use winscp to drop the file into /home/bubba [10:39] i dragged it into /var/www [10:39] then, use putty to move it to /var/www and change the owner [10:39] winscp can't land files into /var/www [10:39] not as bubba [10:39] user accounts mean something in Ubuntu [10:40] that's why we're concerned with who owns things [10:40] my mistake [10:40] np - navigate to /home/bubba in winscp and drop the file in there [10:42] thats where it is now. so does bubba own it now? [10:42] you've still got putty open, right? [10:42] yes [10:42] still signed on as root in that putty session, right? [10:42] yes [10:42] 'ls -l /home/bubba' (no quotes) [10:43] that'll tell you who owns it [10:43] it should be bubba:bubba [10:43] it is not bringing it up. idk why [10:44] did you get a set of columns? [10:44] or just a list of files and dirs? [10:45] i have three files in there [10:45] drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2009-03-10 11:14 apache2-default [10:45] that's a directory - is that in /home/bubba? [10:46] correct [10:46] -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 45 2009-05-24 23:43 index.html.backup [10:46] drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2009-05-25 00:04 webalizer [10:46] that's . . . strange - it's acting like you're running 'ls -l' in the /var/www directory . . . [10:46] did you type 'ls -l /home/bubba' ??? [10:47] suspect he is. [10:47] or a mv has gone awry [10:47] let me do it again [10:47] stupid me. i am in /var/www [10:48] how do i get out cd.. [10:48] that's why i suggested you add /home/bubba to the end of the ls command - it'll look over there without changing directories [10:49] what i typed in was exactly what u said [10:50] if you want to change directories, try 'cd /home/bubba' [10:50] oh there it is [10:50] bubba is the owner [10:51] copy it over to /var/www, then change the owner to root:root [10:51] cmd pls? [10:55] cp index.html /var/www [10:55] that'll copy it over [10:56] chown root:root /var/www/index.html [10:56] changes the owner [10:57] root@server1:/var/www# cp index.htm /var/www [10:57] cp: cannot stat `index.htm': No such file or directory [10:58] you're sitting in the /var/www dir - didn't know that [10:58] cp /home/bubba/index.htm . [10:58] k [10:58] did it make it over to /var/www? [11:00] let me see [11:00] Is there a UDS channel? [11:00] it sure did [11:01] bubba- did you chown it to root:root? [11:01] yes i did [11:01] owh, at a guess something like #ubuntu-uds [11:02] owh, i expect they have per topic channels though - its what we do at LCA [11:02] bubba- you should be done - [11:02] do i need to transfer the accompanying files to index.htm to /var/www as well? [11:05] thanks for your time [11:09] anyone have an opinion about a RCS for blobs? [11:09] gkahla, depending on your workflow, bzr would work [11:10] it'll be basically two people working on different sections with little overlap [11:11] my concern is about the blobs - there will be jpg images for maps, and OpenOffice.org files with documents [11:11] i know bzr and svn dont care about blobs as far as commitming them goes. iirc bzr allows binary diffs. [11:11] gkahla, i'd suggest asking #bzr to get opinions on bzrs suitability [11:11] ooh - binary diffs!! [11:12] thx, Kamping_Kaiser - appreciate the feedback [11:12] gkahla, gl [11:18] Mornin All [11:18] howdy, Gargoyle [11:20] Laptop + Garden + Sun = Win! :) [11:22] congrats - sun's not up over here yet [11:24] thanks all - try and stay out of trouble, eh? [11:31] Was hardy 8.04 or 8.10? [11:35] Is there a command in ubuntu to get the version without having to look in /etc/apt/sources.list? [11:51] Anyone have any recomendations or arguments for/against monit vs nagios. I am looking to install something on a single server and thinking that nagios might be a bit overkill. [11:56] why not use munin? :) [11:57]