[00:52] <sbalneav> Evening all
[02:49] <sbalneav> Evening LaserJock
[02:49] <LaserJock> hi
[02:49] <sbalneav> So, interesting.
[02:49] <sbalneav> At work, I have an older laptop I was using, that I built from a UNR image.
[02:50] <sbalneav> I build the sabayon package there, and it launches, and I can edit the desktop fine.
[02:50] <sbalneav> So, I've just installed a jaunty box here
[02:50] <sbalneav> All up-to-date
[02:50] <sbalneav> Installed my package there, and like yours, it cr*ps out.
[02:51] <LaserJock> ...ok
[02:51] <sbalneav> Only difference is, one's using the unr desktop, the other, the regular gnome desktop
[02:51] <sbalneav> the unr desktop only has 1 panel.
[02:51] <LaserJock> right
[02:51] <sbalneav> So here's my theory.
[02:52] <sbalneav> A "stock" ubuntu panel config's missing something.
[02:55] <LaserJock> I tried adding in a name key in /etc/gconf/schemas/somethingoranother
[02:55] <sbalneav> No change?
[02:56] <sbalneav> I'm going to have to look through that panel delegate code again.
[02:56] <sbalneav> See what exactly it's looking for,
[02:58] <LaserJock> it didn't seem to make a difference
[03:00] <sbalneav> off for a bit to watch the latest episode of "Canada's worst handyman", back in a bit.
[04:00] <sbalneav> Back
[05:11] <sbalneav> Hmmm
[05:11] <sbalneav> think I may be on to something...
[05:11] <sbalneav> Gonna try to get another build up in a few minutes
[05:24] <LaserJock> sbalneav: oh?
[05:29] <nubae1> sbalneav: have u considered trying to build sabayon on oBS? it allows multiple architectures and distributions
[05:30] <nubae1> can be quite helpful for debugging too... one can use the oBS servers to let stuff build in the bacground, or build locally using the build command... I find it to be really helpful in terms of not having to worry about the majority of the automated stuff
[05:31] <nubae1> I suppose u get a bigger testing base too, since u can output to rpm, deb, for any distro and architecture
[05:33] <sbalneav> I have no idea what oBS
[05:33] <sbalneav> is
[05:33] <LaserJock> Nubae: the changes are Ubuntu-specific though so I'm not sure he'd gain much
[05:34] <Nubae> you can then still always use local debian/ubuntu tools, I just think it makes it easier during testing faze
[05:34] <Nubae> oh I see.... u dont think it will be valuable for other distros?
[05:35] <LaserJock> Nubae: most likely not
[05:35] <LaserJock> it's possible though I suppose
[05:35] <LaserJock> but the patches are likely to go to the mailing list so the Fedora/openSUSE experts can have a look
[05:36] <LaserJock> not sure what Gentoo's status is
[05:36] <Nubae> oBS = opensuse BUILD SERVICE, though its distro agnostic and is a gpl tool, its kinda what BDOFL dreamed of when he created launchpad
[05:36] <LaserJock> well, one aspect of Launchpad anyway
[05:37] <Nubae> well, then even if just for that, if u can make the src deb available would be great
[05:37] <sbalneav> I have more than enough on my plate without having to learn yet more tools, thanks.  I don't know the ones I have to use now.
[05:37] <Nubae> right, one aspect of launchpad, automation... I mean a lot of this stuff really shouldnt take as much time as it does
[05:37] <sbalneav> the source deb's in my ppa
[05:38] <Nubae> devs should be able to concentrate on their work and not let packaging be the most complicated part of the entire distibution process
[05:38] <Nubae> www.launchpad.com/~sbalneav?
[05:38] <LaserJock> ideally it's not
[05:38] <LaserJock> I don't think sbalneav is having really any problems with the packaging
[05:38] <LaserJock> it's the stupid bugs
[05:39] <Nubae> ahhh... time to pull out ye olde insecticide
[05:39] <LaserJock> but they seem to be tricky bugs
[05:39] <LaserJock> that depend on your gnome setup
[05:39] <Nubae> well, I can take a look see if we cant get some testing done on other distros
[05:40] <LaserJock> I think Fedora and openSUSE are mostly OK
[05:40] <Nubae> openSUSE doesnt really need it, but for testing bugs might appear of a particular variety
[05:40] <LaserJock> have you tried sabayon on openSUSE?
[05:40] <Nubae> actually no
[05:40] <LaserJock> the current main dev works for Novell so I'd think it'd be in fairly good shape
[05:41] <LaserJock> and Red Hat created it so generally they do OK as well
[05:41] <Nubae> not really any need... but I shall... the thing is openSUSE is very LDAP centric when it comes to groups/theming/samba
[05:41] <LaserJock> it's the rest of us that seem to have problems
[05:41] <Nubae> aha
[05:41] <LaserJock> they made assumptions about gnome that only seem to hold for Fedora/openSUSE
[05:41] <Nubae> lemme check it out then, first from opensuse packages then from sbalneav package
[05:42] <Nubae> heh, sunds like typical openSUSE policy... forget about other distros and do what they consider works in the moment.... no standards, no policies
[05:43] <Nubae> that kinda irritates me sometimes, but the thing is ends up just working...
[05:43] <Nubae> very strange that way, u'd think since they break so many conventions that things wouldn't fit together, but they do somehow
[05:45] <LaserJock> yeah, I've noticed that
[05:46] <sbalneav> You guys seeing a 0ubuntu4 build in my ppa?
[05:47] <sbalneav> Ah, there it is.
[05:48] <sbalneav> LaserJock: When it finishes building, have a look at sabayon-2.25.0-0ubuntu4
[05:49] <sbalneav> I cherry picked a fedora patch and modified it slightly
[05:49] <LaserJock> sbalneav: ok
[05:49] <LaserJock> which one?
[05:50] <sbalneav> https://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/rpms/sabayon/F-11/?sortby=rev
[05:50] <sbalneav> the gconf-crashes patch
[05:52] <Nubae> we have sabayon, sabayon-lang and sabayon admin packages in openSUSE
[05:52] <LaserJock> sbalneav: fascinating
[05:53] <sbalneav> yeah, what I really want to do is find out why that object doesn't seem to be defined.
[05:53] <sbalneav> there
[05:53] <sbalneav> 's a couple other patches that might be handy there
[05:54] <sbalneav> I'd like to find the *real* problem, and then get the patches pushed upstream, but that's for later.
[05:54] <sbalneav> right now, lets see if we can get it to work,
[05:54] <sbalneav> LaserJock: ok, ppa's finished doing it's thing
[05:54] <sbalneav> give it a go.
[05:55] <sbalneav> brings up the xnest window on mine.
[05:55] <LaserJock> still pending publishing, I'll give it a minute or two
[05:56] <Nubae> ok so its starts in opensuse
[05:56] <LaserJock> and if you edit a profile?
[05:56] <Nubae> but setting up new profile and hitting edit kills it
[05:57] <Nubae> MainThread 2009/05/26 06:55:12.8495 (admin-tool): Got fatal error: sabayon-session exited with a FATAL ERROR (exit code 1)
[05:57] <Nubae> MainThread 2009/05/26 06:55:12.8684 (USER): Finishing editing profile
[05:57] <Nubae> MainThread 2009/05/26 06:55:12.8689 (admin-tool): Terminating main loop
[05:57] <Nubae> MainThread 2009/05/26 06:55:12.8690 (admin-tool): Exiting abnormally; dumping log due to a fatal error
[05:58] <Nubae> I've got the full traceback if u are interested sbalneav
[05:58] <LaserJock> ok, did it die immediately
[05:58] <sbalneav> That on ubuntu?
[05:58] <Nubae> but might be more interesting if I run your version of course
[05:58] <Nubae> on openSUSE... yeah died right after I hit the edit profile button
[05:58] <sbalneav> yeah, well I think I just *fixed* that bug.  My version has the patch for that.
[05:59] <Nubae> ok, I'll try building yours and see if it works better, it could shed light on other items
[05:59] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Mine work for you?
[06:00] <LaserJock> no .debs published yet
[06:00]  * LaserJock kicks LP
[06:00] <sbalneav> sabayon-apply's still cacking out, I'll get to that next
[06:01] <sbalneav> ah, yeah, they built, but not published.
[06:01] <sbalneav> I got mine here locally from my pbuilder
[06:05] <LaserJock> sbalneav: \o/ !
[06:05] <sbalneav> Ah
[06:05] <sbalneav> Upstream's patched this already
[06:06] <sbalneav> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=542604
[06:06] <sbalneav> ok
[06:06] <sbalneav> So rather than this patch, we'll need the other one.
[06:06] <sbalneav> meh
[06:06] <sbalneav> enough for tonight.
[06:07] <sbalneav> and I still have to figure out why sabayon-apply's borked.
[06:07] <sbalneav> deal with that tomorrow.
[06:07] <sbalneav> I'mma gonna head to bed.
[06:07] <sbalneav> night all
[06:08] <LaserJock> sbalneav: night, good work
[06:09] <Nubae> LaserJock: when is meeting today?
[06:10] <LaserJock> 20:00 UTC
[06:10] <Nubae> ok thanks
[06:11] <LaserJock> Nubae: are you gonna make it?
[07:41] <Nubae> yah
[07:43] <LaserJock> great
[08:42] <asanchez> Good morning everybody
[10:47] <bencrisford2> highvoltage: When is the edubuntu strat document session at the UDS?
[10:47] <bencrisford2> and what room, ill get a live stream
[10:47] <stgraber> right now
[10:47] <stgraber> room 13
[11:05] <bencrisford1> highvoltage, stgraber: What time and what room is the edubuntu session stuff going on?
[11:05] <stgraber> bencrisford1: it just finished
[11:06] <bencrisford1> sh*t!
[11:06] <bencrisford1> my internet connection been dodgy all day
[11:06] <bencrisford1> :(
[11:06] <bencrisford1> stgraber: Any other sessions worth watching?
[11:07] <bencrisford1> watching/gobbying
[11:07] <stgraber> highvoltage: ping
[11:09] <bencrisford1> stgraber: "Edubuntu Developers are Edubuntu Members who want to work on packaging and have shown that they're unlinely to do damage to any of the Edubuntu packages."  -- does that mean non-members cant package :O?
[11:11] <highvoltage> stgraber: pong
[14:12] <pygi> hi
[14:12] <bencrisford1> Ello :)
[14:12] <bencrisford1> Did you run the session on burning earlier pygi?
[14:13] <pygi> yup
[14:13] <bencrisford1> Ah yes, I tuned in for a bit of it :)
[14:14]  * pygi wonders what would that mean :p
[14:15] <bencrisford1> I listened the the live stream
[14:16] <pygi> there was a live stream lol?!
[14:16] <bencrisford1> lol
[14:16] <pygi> greetings ogra german :p
[14:16] <bencrisford1> millions of people
[14:16] <bencrisford1> millions listening to pygi talking about burning discs
[14:16] <pygi> bencrisford1: stop joking with me :p
[14:17] <bencrisford1> I would give you an oscar, for best documentary
[14:17] <pygi> there were exactly three persons in the room xD
[14:17] <bencrisford1> lol :P
[14:17] <bencrisford1> and millions listening
[14:17] <pygi> noes!
[14:17] <pygi> lies
[14:17] <bencrisford1> lo;l
[14:17] <pygi> edubuntu session was pretty cool
[14:18] <pygi> I am glad I was there
[14:18] <bencrisford1> If im honest I didnt intend to listen to you, but it was an accident
[14:18] <bencrisford1> I thought the edubuntu was an hour later than it was
[14:18] <bencrisford1> and i didnt realise until you started talking about brasero :P
[14:18] <pygi> lol, so it was seriously streamed? :D
[14:18] <bencrisford1> yeah
[14:18] <bencrisford1> all the rooms are being streamed all day i think
[14:19] <bencrisford1> even when theres nothing there
[14:19] <pygi> argh xD
[14:19] <bencrisford1> i could hear the cleaners and what have you argueing after a session finished
[14:19] <pygi> I didn't knew that :D
[14:19] <pygi> hi asanchez
[14:19] <asanchez> hi pygi
[14:19] <pygi> bencrisford1: hehe :D
[14:19] <pygi> bencrisford1: so did you learn something at least? ;-P
[14:20] <bencrisford1> :/ that i missed the edubuntu session
[14:20] <pygi> bencrisford1: except that :p
[14:20] <pygi> something about burning?
[14:21] <pygi> bencrisford1: btw. don't worry, I'll post the notes to the mailing list tomorrow
[14:21] <bencrisford1> if im honest - not really, i only went on there for a minute or two im busy doing a 4 page essay on the british empire
[14:21] <pygi> :P
[14:21] <bencrisford1> did you mention my openweek idea btw?
[14:21] <bencrisford1> for developers
[14:22] <pygi> no, not yet :-/ We didn't had time to focus on getting developers, but I think we'll schedule another session this week
[14:22] <bencrisford1> ok, cool :)
[14:22]  * bencrisford1 wishes he was in barcelona, not writing a history essay
[14:23] <pygi> asanchez: you somewhere near the bazaar room?
[14:33] <pygi> bencrisford1: tell him not to ignore me :p
[14:34] <asanchez> pygi, sorry, we're at Internal Package Repository Management (room 2)
[14:35] <pygi> asanchez: I'm joking :) O, I hope its interesting :)
[14:36] <asanchez> mm, nothing new
[14:37] <bencrisford1> can anyone turn up to the UDS?
[14:37]  * bencrisford1 might jump on a plane :P (joke)
[14:38] <asanchez> where are you from bencrisford1 ?
[14:38] <bencrisford1> UK
[14:38] <asanchez> this is so near
[14:39] <asanchez> there are very cheap flights between UK and Spain
[14:39] <bencrisford1> yep
[14:39] <bencrisford1> but as im not actually a dev it would be a bit pointless
[14:39] <bencrisford1> if the UDS comes to the UK ill be there :)
[14:39] <asanchez> im not a developer too
[14:40] <bencrisford1> oh :/
[14:40] <bencrisford1> is the UDS coming to the uk any time soon?
[14:41] <asanchez> I don't know, i think many people from Canonical works in UK
[14:41] <bencrisford1> yeah including sabdfl himself :)
[14:42] <bencrisford1> id love to work for canonical :P
[14:44] <sbalneav> Morning all
[14:45] <bencrisford1> hi :)
[14:47] <pygi> hi sbalneav
[14:48] <bencrisford1> asanchez: apparently the first UDS was UK, and the canonical team sprint is scotland
[14:48] <bencrisford1> so might not be in UK for a while
[14:48] <bencrisford1> but if it is
[14:48] <bencrisford1> you'll see me there hopefully
[14:54] <bencrisford1> UDS Hardy was 2006 right?
[14:55] <asanchez> UDS Hardy was 11/06 i think
[14:55] <bencrisford1> ah pl
[14:55] <bencrisford1> ok
[15:00] <highvoltage> hey bencrisford1
[15:02] <bencrisford1> hey
[15:02] <bencrisford1> cant stop just going out
[15:02] <bencrisford1> back in 10 minutes or so :)
[15:03] <sbalneav> What's the general feeling here?  Should we patch up sabayon to use Xephyr, like Fedora? Or should we just stick with Xnest?  The only thing I can see that it would give us is composite support, but I'm not sure if that's particularily necessary for a window-in-window X desktop.
[15:04] <sbalneav> OTOH, xnest is directly supported by Xorg, which, one assumes, should be the most compatible with the host Xorg system
[15:04] <sbalneav> Personally, I'm inclined to stick with Xnest, but I'm open to suggestions.
[15:05] <sbalneav> ...
[15:05]  * sbalneav listens to crickets
[15:07] <nubae> go for it
[15:07] <nubae> :-)
[15:28] <pygi> sbalneav: ++ on xnest
[15:29] <stgraber> sbalneav: +1 (xnest)
[15:46] <sbalneav> pygi, stgraber yeah, thanks, that was my thought.  One less extra dependency too.
[15:46] <sbalneav> ok, working on a different patch.
[15:46] <sbalneav> should have a new build up in 20 minutes or so.
[17:02] <sbalneav> Looks like we also have to add .gvfs to the list of directories to ignore.
[17:02] <sbalneav> Patching that
[17:02] <sbalneav> getting cloooooser...
[17:22] <sbalneav> Ok, for anyone interested, sabayon 2.25.0-0ubuntu6 is being pushed to my ppa now
[17:22] <sbalneav> sabayon-apply (actually applying the profile) is still borken, but I can confirm that the profile's actually saving.
[17:23] <sbalneav> If anyone's interested, give it a test when it appears in my ppa
[17:25] <LaserJock> wahoo
[17:25] <LaserJock> sbalneav: so was there any upstream Fedora/openSUSE patches for sabayon-apply?
[17:28] <nubae> we're applying some patches in openSUSE... I'll let u know how it goes
[17:29] <Lns> sbalneav: that's awesome!!!
[17:32] <LaserJock> highvoltage: ping
[17:35] <stgraber> highvoltage: ping too
[17:37] <nubae> ping three
[17:37] <nubae> :d
[17:41] <nubae> so meeting in 20 mins right?
[17:42] <bencrisford1> crap?  really? :P
[17:42] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: want me to take minutes?
[17:42] <LaserJock> stgraber: so, uh, what did you do to my strategy doc?
[17:42] <LaserJock> no more areas of focus?
[17:46] <stgraber> we made it a bit shorter :) mainly by merging that into the objectives
[17:46] <stgraber> we're trying to be less specific so we don't have to update it over and over
[17:49] <LaserJock> hmm, I think we'll need to discuss this some
[17:49] <LaserJock> for me personally it's now so vague and short that it's lost a lot of power to direct
[17:49] <stgraber> sure, just waiting for highvoltage to join me downstairs
[17:55] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ping
[17:55] <highvoltage> I mean
[17:55] <highvoltage> LaserJock: pong
[17:55] <highvoltage> stgraber: pong too
[17:55] <LaserJock> hi
[17:56] <highvoltage> LaserJock: yes it needs some more discussion indeed, it's not finalised in any way
[17:57] <LaserJock> good ;-)
[17:57] <LaserJock> so are we supposed to have our EC meeting now?
[18:00]  * Lns has to go in about 5 min :(
[18:01] <bencrisford1> we better be quick then :P
[18:01] <LaserJock> stgraber, highvoltage: we're starting please
[18:01] <bencrisford1> we better check nubae is here
[18:01] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: you're doing minutes?
[18:01] <bencrisford1> sure if you want me to
[18:02] <bencrisford1> but if my internet goes
[18:02] <bencrisford1> someone else might need to
[18:02] <LaserJock> k
[18:03] <LaserJock> this is the part of UDS I hate
[18:03] <LaserJock> everybody is hard to get ahold of
[18:04] <nubae> I am here
[18:04] <highvoltage> LaserJock: the areas and focus in addition to the other sections was a bit much
[18:04] <LaserJock> stgraber: here?
[18:05] <stgraber> LaserJock: yeah, next to highvoltage :)
[18:05] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ok I was just gone for a minute had to talk to someone but I'm here now
[18:05] <LaserJock> [18:05] <LaserJock> ok, who all is here today to apply for Edubuntu Membership?
[18:05] <highvoltage> so this is another impromptu EC meeting right?
[18:05] <LaserJock> highvoltage: I thought this was the scheduled one
[18:05] <nubae> I suppose its me and Lns
[18:06] <highvoltage> "or if you have applied before, please join us on
[18:06] <highvoltage> #ubuntu-meeting on the freenode network on Wednesday 27 May 2009 at
[18:06] <highvoltage> 20:00 UTC."
[18:06] <highvoltage> (e-mail sent to edubuntu-devel"
[18:06] <LaserJock> soooo, that's tomorrow?
[18:06] <highvoltage> yeah
[18:06] <stgraber> LaserJock: you got us a bit confused :)
[18:06]  * LaserJock has lost track of all sense of time in pursuit of a PhD ;-)
[18:06] <nubae> oh ok then :-=
[18:06] <LaserJock> nubae: can you make it tomorrow?
[18:07] <nubae> yeah
[18:07] <stgraber> that's tomorrow and a bit later (3 hours) so we can grab some food before then
[18:07] <LaserJock> we can do it now if you can't
[18:07] <highvoltage> hold on
[18:07] <bencrisford1> LaserJock: So we're not doing it now?
[18:07] <highvoltage> you already started it!
[18:07] <nubae> heh
[18:07] <bencrisford1> highvoltage: no he didnt
[18:07] <bencrisford1> you didnt do the bong
[18:07] <highvoltage> I guess we can wait until tomorrow
[18:07] <highvoltage> no problem
[18:07] <LaserJock> highvoltage: well, the 2 people we're expecting are here
[18:07] <LaserJock> *but* there could be more at the *right* time
[18:07] <highvoltage> I just had to snap into ec mode real quickly and out :)
[18:08] <LaserJock> Lns might already be gone
[18:08]  * nubae is usually around aynways, so no matter
[18:08] <Lns> I'm here, but leaving in ~30sec.
[18:08]  * bencrisford1 just made the minutes look pretty :(
[18:08] <LaserJock> screw it, let's do this
[18:08] <highvoltage> LaserJock: back to the strategy dock, I think we need to keep it really quick and snappy and get the message accross
[18:08] <LaserJock> argg
[18:08] <highvoltage> LaserJock: most of what's taken out was repeated and it's still there
[18:09] <LaserJock> Lns: can you make the meeting tomorrow?
[18:09]  * bencrisford1 prefers highvoltage in EC mode
[18:09]  * bencrisford1 fumbles for the switch
[18:09] <Lns> LaserJock: yep, what time?
[18:09] <LaserJock> 1pm our time
[18:09] <highvoltage> *FWOOP*
[18:10] <bencrisford1> CRAP!  Its 26th may!!!  my membership meeting is next week :'(
[18:10] <Lns> LaserJock: ahh...what's our time? =p
[18:10] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: Ubuntu Membership?
[18:10] <bencrisford1> yeah
[18:10] <LaserJock> Lns: Pacific
[18:10] <Lns> LaserJock: oh yeah i forgot you live so close to me! ;)
[18:10] <Lns> *beers LaserJock*
[18:10] <LaserJock> ;-)
[18:11] <stgraber> bencrisford1: oh really, so I'll see you there ;)
[18:11] <bencrisford1> oh ?
[18:11] <stgraber> I'm an EMEA council member
[18:11] <LaserJock> ok, so EC meeting is voided because of LaserJock's stupidity
[18:11] <bencrisford1> ooh, do you take bribes?
[18:11]  * Lns sunbirds tomorrow @1pm pst
[18:11] <Lns> cheers all
[18:11] <LaserJock> bencrisford1: btw, if a person is already an Ubuntu Member then Edubuntu Membership is easily obtained ;-)
[18:11] <highvoltage> ciao Lns
[18:12] <LaserJock> Lns: cya
[18:12] <LaserJock> ok, ok, back to Strategy Doc
[18:12] <LaserJock> here's my reasoning
[18:12] <LaserJock> I wanted do the following:
[18:12] <LaserJock> 1) introduce what Edubuntu is
[18:12] <LaserJock> 2) outline what our objectives and goals are
[18:13] <LaserJock> 3) have specific strategies for how to achieve those objectives/goals
[18:13] <LaserJock> 4) outline what the community looks like
[18:13] <LaserJock> 5) outline our development policies and methods
[18:14] <bencrisford1> stgraber: Do you take bribes?
[18:14] <stgraber> bencrisford1: nah :)
[18:14] <LaserJock> I want to have something that when people come to our community they can read it and get a good grasp on what we do
[18:14] <bencrisford1> :(
[18:14]  * bencrisford1 didnt just ask you that btw...
[18:15] <stgraber> and that chan isn't logged on a public web server btw ... :)
[18:15]  * bencrisford1 smashes server with hammer
[18:15] <LaserJock> and something that when we're thinking of initiating a new program/ including new apps, etc. that we can turn to it for guidance
[18:15] <bencrisford1> no it isnt stagraber :)
[18:15] <bencrisford1> stgraber*
[18:15] <stgraber> hey ubuntulog
[18:16] <bencrisford1> lol, just to make sure - i was joking when i asked if you took bribes btw..
[18:16] <LaserJock> highvoltage: so to me the current doc seems a bit to vague for giving a lot of guidance, what do you think?
[18:16] <stgraber> LaserJock: right but it was a bit too specific as it was including things like the whole metapackages list, and some technical details that may not be of general interest like the seeds and similar stuff
[18:17] <highvoltage> LaserJock: that looks like a good layout
[18:17] <LaserJock> stgraber: well, people don't have to read the whole thing
[18:17] <LaserJock> the problem is that *nothing* is codified right now
[18:17] <LaserJock> nobody knows how Edubuntu is developed or what it really is
[18:18] <highvoltage> LaserJock: are you going to be here a while still? I mean, for several hours? after today I need an hour or two away from my computer
[18:18] <LaserJock> yes
[18:18] <LaserJock> I'll be here
[18:18] <highvoltage> (so would be nice if we can follow-up after dinner)
[18:18] <highvoltage> awesome
[18:19] <LaserJock> I like how you put the upstream relationships in objectives
[18:20] <LaserJock> I would call it "Strong Upstream Relationships"
[18:20] <LaserJock> to fit in grammatically with the other items
[18:27] <sbalneav> Back
[19:21] <LaserJock> sbalneav: so, right now we can make and edit profiles but the fail to get applied, right?
[19:27] <sbalneav> I'm fixing that.  And the gconf dir wasn't getting saved
[19:27] <sbalneav> I've just come up with a couple more patches
[19:28] <sbalneav> One that I cribbed and modified from upstream (had to add in not to save the .gvfs and .pulse dirs) and one that I fixed in the sabayon apply
[19:29] <sbalneav> 0ubuntu7 should post in a couple minutes here, if my pbuilder reports a success :)
[19:30] <LaserJock> sbalneav: should the patches apply cleanly to 2.22.1?
[19:30] <sbalneav> Don't know.  Once I get 2.25 working, I'll look at a backport.
[19:31] <sbalneav> I can't see why not.
[19:31] <sbalneav> There's really not much that's changed
[19:31] <LaserJock> yeah
[19:31] <LaserJock> I guess that's one nice thing about a dead upstream ;-)
[19:32] <LaserJock> I'd like to SRU Hardy and Intrepid
[19:40] <sbalneav> Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner
[19:41] <sbalneav> Created profile
[19:41] <sbalneav> Added stickey notes to top panel
[19:41] <sbalneav> saved profile
[19:41] <sbalneav> said that profile should apply to me
[19:41] <sbalneav> logged out
[19:41] <sbalneav> logged in
[19:42] <sbalneav> sticky notes on top panel appeared as if by freaking magic.
[19:42] <LaserJock> wahoo
[19:42] <sbalneav> sabayon-2.25.0-0ubuntu7 in my ppa
[19:43] <sbalneav> it's saving dbus information, which it shouldn't, so I'll exclude that as well, but interested sabayon people can play with what's there.
[20:01] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Was it just sabayon that wasn't working, or did pessulus have bugs as well?
[20:02] <LaserJock> I *think* it was just sabayon
[20:02] <LaserJock> pessulus just munges gconf keys
[20:04] <sbalneav> Another thing that I'll work on adding to sabayon: you can only apply profiles by *users*, really you'd realisticyally want to apply profiles by *group*
[20:05] <sbalneav> i.e. everyone in the "grade8" group gets this profile, everyone in "grade9" gets *this* one, etc.
[20:05] <sbalneav> Once I get something like that going, we'll send patches upstream.
[20:06] <LaserJock> yeah
[20:06] <LaserJock> once we get things actually working we can look at enhancements
[20:06] <LaserJock> btw, the Ubuntu Desktop team is wanting to get rid of gnome-system-tools
[20:07] <LaserJock> the only thing that we don't have a ready replacement for is useradmin
[20:07] <sbalneav> Saw that, but what will they replace with?  Write something on their own?
[20:07] <LaserJock> well, they said they didn't have resources to write their own
[20:07] <LaserJock> and Fedora's is pretty Fedora-specific
[20:08] <LaserJock> so they're going to basically remove everything but useradmin from gnome-system-tools
[20:08] <LaserJock> and patch it to kinda work
[20:08] <LaserJock> and wait until fedora's stuff works out
[20:09] <sbalneav> Well, all that's really needed is just to rewrite the backend to be pam/ldap compliant
[20:09] <sbalneav> with some kind of plugin arch.
[20:09] <LaserJock> right, and nobody seems to want to do that
[20:09] <sbalneav> sigh
[20:09] <sbalneav> there a team for that?
[20:09] <LaserJock> no
[20:09] <LaserJock> I mean, it's Desktop Team but they're all packagers
[20:10] <LaserJock> we're not upstreams
[20:10] <sbalneav> There going to be a bof on it?
[20:10] <LaserJock> not sure
[20:10] <LaserJock> they had one already
[20:10] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure if they're doing followups
[20:11] <sbalneav> What if I write one in python, ditch the perl one?
[20:11] <sbalneav> I'm not sure exactly how the front and back end tie together, some dbus magig that eludes me.
[20:12] <sbalneav> but I could figure it out.
[20:12] <LaserJock> well
[20:12] <LaserJock> I don't think they'd mind if somebody just rewrote the whole thing in python
[20:13] <sbalneav> Well, we don't want the whole thing, just the useradmin part, right?
[20:13] <LaserJock> exactly
[20:14] <LaserJock> all that is needed is a user and group admin tool
[20:14] <sbalneav> I have another question.
[20:14] <LaserJock> the gobby doc is uds-karmic-no-gst
[20:16] <sbalneav> If we were to create a "edubuntu-ldap-server", which would:
[20:16] <sbalneav> 1) depend on openldap slapd, and
[20:17] <sbalneav> 2) provide a pre-configured ldap schema for use with labs
[20:17] <sbalneav> how would we:
[20:17] <sbalneav> a) Override the questions that the slapd package asks
[20:18] <sbalneav> b) modify the slapd config in /etc without violating debian policy?
[20:19] <LaserJock> a) I'm not really sure, but I think you can "preseed" those
[20:20] <LaserJock> b) I'd have to check that one as well but I think something should be possible
[20:21] <LaserJock> it might require working with the server guys to make a change in the slapd package
[20:23] <sbalneav> Well, we'll burn that bridge when we come to it.
[20:24] <sbalneav> ok
[20:24] <sbalneav> looks like the packages are built in my ppa
[20:24] <sbalneav> if you'd like to test, give 'em a go.
[20:25] <LaserJock> Debian Policy says that the "owning" package of the config file should provide a program that can be run to modify the configuration
[20:27] <LaserJock> so I think that's saying that slapd should have a program that we could call, like update-slapd-config <path to our config file>
[20:32] <LaserJock> the idea of having an ldap server meta-package sounds really promising though
[20:33] <sbalneav> well, I'd like to have an edubuntu-ldap-server and edubuntu-ldap-client meta package, with just about everything configured
[20:35] <sbalneav> i.e., something that figures out your hostname, then creates a bog-standard ou=users,dc=your,dc=domain,dc=name and ou=groups,... hierarchy.
[20:37] <sbalneav> So, if you had an edubunu box you'd want as your "ldap server", you'd install the edubuntu-ldap-server metapackage, it would set up the hierarchy for you.
[20:38] <LaserJock> yeah, I think that would totally rock
[20:38] <sbalneav> installing the edubuntu-ldap-client would then set up the correct auth-client-config profile, and apply it
[20:38] <sbalneav> then if the "addusers" backend was ldap aware, you'd be in business.
[20:39] <sbalneav> Another patch coming out in a few mintes
[20:39] <sbalneav> for the .dbus dir ignore
[20:48] <sbalneav> LaserJock: still there?
[20:48] <LaserJock> sure am
[20:48] <sbalneav> Here's another packaging question
[20:48] <sbalneav> in the root dir of sabayon, there's a sabayon.schema file
[20:49] <sbalneav> I want that to go into /usr/share/docs/sabayon/examples
[20:49] <sbalneav> or the like.
[20:49] <sbalneav> do I just add a line like:
[20:49] <sbalneav> sabayon.schema\t\t/usr/share/doc/sabayon/examples
[20:49] <sbalneav> to the sabayon.install file?
[20:50] <LaserJock> yeah
[20:51] <sbalneav> ok
[22:13] <Ahmuck> what's the current decision on what version of ubuntu is going to be considered the "supported" version of edubuntu?
[22:14] <sbalneav> Not sure a decision's been made yet.
[22:14] <sbalneav> My own preference would be to align ourselves with the lts releases.
[22:15] <sbalneav> work on getting what we need into karmic, and then freezing on that until the next lts
[22:15] <sbalneav> then staying in sync with the lts releases from there on out.
[22:16] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: how do you mean "supported"?
[22:20] <pygi> sbalneav: I think we've established the same principle at today's session
[22:20] <sbalneav> which, at the uds?
[22:21] <pygi> sbalneav: yes
[22:21] <sbalneav> Since I'm not there, i wasn't aware :)
[22:21]  * bencrisford1 wishes he was there
[22:21] <bencrisford1> :(
[22:21] <pygi> sbalneav: read blog post from jonathan
[22:21] <sbalneav> bencrisford1: yeah, you've said that a few times already.
[22:21] <bencrisford1> lol
[22:21] <bencrisford1> pygi: Is it on planet ubuntu
[22:22] <pygi> bencrisford1: yea, he also took a picture of me!
[22:22] <pygi> evil
[22:22] <bencrisford1> :P
[22:23] <bencrisford1> pygi: the pictures you, huh? :P
[22:23] <bencrisford1> :)
[22:23] <pygi> bencrisford1: yes, sadly
[22:24] <bencrisford1> :P
[22:25] <bencrisford1> why sadly?
[22:26] <pygi> because :p
[22:26] <bencrisford1> lol
[22:26] <bencrisford1> id be honoured if someone wanted to take a picture of me :P
[22:27] <sbalneav> Well, I've had enough of job + sabayon hacking for the day.
[22:27] <Ahmuck> LaserJock: ie, LTS or every current release
[22:27] <sbalneav> Off for a quick brew.  Might be on later tonight.
[22:27] <Ahmuck> i ask, because i
[22:27] <pygi> later sbalneav
[22:28] <bencrisford1> c ya sbalneav
[22:28] <Ahmuck> 've put someone on to help build instructions, etc.  i need to know what release to target.  should i drop back to 8.04.1 with ltsp or 8.10 or 9.04 or etc.
[22:30] <LaserJock> I didn't think highvoltage's post said anything about targeted releases
[22:34] <pygi> LaserJock: not sure, but I think we've pretty much set on LTSs
[22:35] <LaserJock> well, but we should be releasing something every 6 months
[22:35] <pygi> LaserJock: why so?
[22:35] <LaserJock> because you lose a lot of momentum
[22:36] <pygi> LaserJock: no you don't, if you distribute the application updates over PPA
[22:36] <LaserJock> i.e. that's why Ubuntu has 6 month releases instead of Debians 18-24 months
[22:36] <pygi> and every LTS for us means new features and change sand stuff
[22:36] <pygi> but we don't have as wide focus as Ubuntu has
[22:36] <LaserJock> I know, but seriously
[22:36] <LaserJock> it'd take a whole lot of work to jump
[22:36]  * bencrisford1 offers a fiver to anyone who gives him a testimonial :P
[22:40] <bencrisford1> pygi: I've never been at a UDS, how is it that you folks are still on IRC the whole time?
[22:42] <LaserJock> a lot of people use irssi on an always-up server somewhere
[22:42] <bencrisford1> irssi?
[22:42]  * bencrisford1 goes to wikipedia
[22:42]  * stgraber is back
[22:43]  * highvoltage too
[22:44]  * bencrisford1 welcomes stgraber and highvoltage back
[22:45] <bencrisford1> anyone fancy giving me a testimonial for a fiver?
[22:46] <bencrisford1> :P
[22:46] <bencrisford1> brb
[22:47] <pygi> bencrisford1: why not :)
[22:47] <pygi> its cool to be on irc
[22:51] <highvoltage> ok now I'm back again with decent networking
[22:53] <highvoltage> sbalneav: ooh, nice on !sabyon
[22:53] <highvoltage> LaserJock: is there anything out there that could be used as a user/group management tool?
[22:54] <highvoltage> LaserJock: yes, I didn't say anything about LTS / release cycles yet because we probably just need to decide on it formally, perhaps we should do that at tomorrow nights meeting
[23:01] <LaserJock> highvoltage: user/group management beyond what "Users and Groups" can do?
[23:01] <LaserJock> some people seem to be using Kusers
[23:01] <highvoltage> LaserJock: yes. is Kusers a KDE app?
[23:01] <LaserJock> yep
[23:02] <highvoltage> LaserJock: is it packaged for ubuntu? I can't find it with apt-cache search. if so, do you have the package name for me?
[23:02] <LaserJock> well, it's probably in kdebase or something
[23:03] <LaserJock> it's *the* user management tool for KDE
[23:03] <bencrisford1> pygi: yeah, it is :), i was just wondering how you guys are
[23:03] <highvoltage> ok, I'll just install KDE then (what the heck)
[23:03] <highvoltage> LaserJock: and it does user management drastically better than user-admin?
[23:04] <LaserJock> people seem to like it a lot more for mass-user management
[23:04] <LaserJock> but it's KDE so there's that inconsistency
[23:04] <highvoltage> pity KDE4 still has some major issues with LTSP
[23:04] <highvoltage> otherise it could be considered as the main education desktop
[23:07] <highvoltage> LaserJock: are you ok with objectives 1-3 on the strat doc?
[23:08] <LaserJock> if the end of 2 is fixed
[23:10] <highvoltage> oosh, where does that come from
[23:11] <highvoltage> "Integration with alternative desktops such as KDE, Xfce and Lxde will also be considered when implementing new features."
[23:11] <highvoltage> is that fine?
[23:13]  * bencrisford123 is loving mibbit
[23:13] <bencrisford1> :D
[23:14] <LaserJock> highvoltage: fine
[23:14] <bencrisford1> You know them mugshots everyone has on launchpad?  How do you make them?
[23:14] <highvoltage> bencrisford1: gimp
[23:15] <bencrisford1> is there a special filter?  or just magic wand + dorp shadow
[23:15] <highvoltage> bencrisford1: they're called hackegotchis, I think there's a hackergotchi howto somewhere on the wiki
[23:15] <bencrisford1> ok ty
[23:15] <highvoltage> 19:12 < LaserJock> 1) introduce what Edubuntu is
[23:16] <highvoltage> """
[23:16] <highvoltage> Edubuntu's mission is to provide educational software and content packages on top of Ubuntu. It forms part of the larger Ubuntu project and so brings with it Ubuntu's processes, philosophies and commitments. Edubuntu's focus is on integrating educational softwares and content, software development is left to upstream projects.
[23:16] <highvoltage> """
[23:16] <LaserJock> hmm
[23:16] <LaserJock> seems a bit package/software heavy
[23:16] <LaserJock> what about community aspects?
[23:16] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I agree with that introduction. I think it just needs emphasis that Edubuntu is a group of people who do that work, or at least in some way bring lns's words in some big way
[23:16] <highvoltage> LaserJock: *exactly*
[23:17] <highvoltage> it nails the technical description of what edubuntu does, but it doesn't really say who we are nicely
[23:24] <asanchez> Hi all!
[23:24] <stgraber> hi asanchez
[23:25] <bencrisford1> hey
[23:25] <asanchez> are you at the hotel?
[23:26] <asanchez> hey bencrisford1
[23:26] <stgraber> yeah, I'm with highvoltage in the lobby
[23:27] <LaserJock> paultag: want to introduce yourself?
[23:27] <asanchez> We have wired connection at the room
[23:27] <asanchez> Im writing uds day2 report
[23:28] <paultag> Hey Ya'll, I am looking to help with some MOTU stuff, I'm sure I'll be seeing a bit more of all of you :)
[23:28] <JoshuaRL> nice to meet you paultag :)
[23:28] <paultag> JoshuaRL, well fancy meeting you here :P
[23:29] <highvoltage> ok here's a try at an improved introduction:
[23:29] <highvoltage> """
[23:29] <highvoltage> Edubuntu is a community of people. Edubuntu is not necessarily a product but a group of people who work together on projects that benefits Ubuntu in education for our users.
[23:29] <highvoltage> Edubuntu's mission is to provide educational software, tools and content packages on top of Ubuntu. It forms part of the larger Ubuntu project and so brings with it Ubuntu's processes, philosophies and commitments. Edubuntu does not focus on developing software, but rather integrating upstream projects and reaching out to form strong bonds with the upstream projects.
[23:29] <highvoltage> """
[23:29] <paultag> highvoltage, :)
[23:29] <highvoltage> LaserJock / stgraber ^^^ perhaps need some language changes? my engrish sucks.
[23:29] <highvoltage> but do you agree with the gist of it?
[23:29] <highvoltage> hi paultag
[23:30] <LaserJock> gimme a sec
[23:30] <JoshuaRL> paultag: well, ive been meaning to set up an LTSP box, and when Vantrax|Work mentioned what he did, i was interested
[23:30] <JoshuaRL> highvoltage: "but rather integrates upstream ... and reaches out to form strong bonds with upstream projects."
[23:31]  * JoshuaRL is an english nerd
[23:32] <highvoltage> JoshuaRL: thanks, updated.
[23:33] <highvoltage> LaserJock: stgraber pointed out that the first paragraph has some redundency in it
[23:33] <Vantrax|Work> highvoltage i would add 'to improve the usability of Ubuntu for educational environments' to the end
[23:33] <highvoltage> LaserJock: but that's kind of copied from lns's e-mail, he said it over and over, and it hits hard, it would be nice if the doc could reflect that
[23:33] <highvoltage> Vantrax|Work: yeah, although that's more of what we do than who we are
[23:34] <highvoltage> Vantrax|Work: and that fits in better with the objectives
[23:34] <highvoltage> Vantrax|Work: but I 100% agree that it should be in there
[23:34] <Vantrax|Work> I might think a reword for something more like Edubuntu is a community of people who work together on projects that benefits Ubuntu in education for our users.
[23:35] <highvoltage> yeah
[23:35] <Vantrax|Work> Edubuntu is a community of people who work together on projects that improves the usability of Ubuntu in educational environments for our users.
[23:35] <pygi> highvoltage: and when I said we are people, you were like: duh!
[23:35] <pygi> :p
[23:35] <highvoltage> here's an excerp from Lns's mail:
[23:35] <highvoltage> """Edubuntu is a community of people.
[23:35] <highvoltage> Edubuntu is NOT a product. It's not a shiny liveCD, liveDVD, liveUSB, a
[23:35] <highvoltage> distro, a collection of metapackages, LTSP, documentation, bugfixes to
[23:35] <highvoltage> educational apps, themes, artwork, or marketing.
[23:35] <highvoltage> Edubuntu is a community of people.
[23:35] <highvoltage> What we do (projects) within the community should be encouraged and
[23:35] <highvoltage> supported, as long as the goals of these individual projects align with
[23:35] <highvoltage> "Edubuntu" (Ubuntu + Education). Edubuntu can produce many things that
[23:35] <highvoltage> benefit Ubuntu in Education. In fact, Edubuntu should produce ALL things
[23:35] <highvoltage> that benefit Ubuntu in Education.
[23:35] <highvoltage> """
[23:36] <highvoltage> pygi: I 100% agreed with you
[23:36] <Vantrax|Work> i think that line summarised that quite well. Edubuntu (Ubuntu + Education) is a community of people who work together on projects that improves the usability of Ubuntu in educational environments for our users.
[23:36] <highvoltage> pygi: but yes, duh.
[23:39] <highvoltage> updated introduction:
[23:39] <highvoltage> """
[23:39] <highvoltage> Edubuntu is a community of people. Edubuntu is not necessarily a product or a disc or a distribution, but a group of people who work together on projects that benefits Ubuntu in education for our users.
[23:40] <highvoltage> Edubuntu's mission is to provide educational software, tools and content packages on top of Ubuntu. It forms part of the larger Ubuntu project and so brings with it Ubuntu's processes, philosophies and commitments. Edubuntu does not focus on developing software, but rather integrates upstream projects and reaches out to form strong bonds with its users, upstream projects and other similar projects.
[23:40] <highvoltage> """
[23:43] <LaserJock> let's not say what Edubuntu is not
[23:43] <LaserJock> it should be a positive statement of who and what we are
[23:44] <LaserJock> that it's a community of people is I think a bit too simplified for what we mean
[23:44] <JoshuaRL> its a project, not a community
[23:44] <LaserJock> it's both
[23:44]  * Lns pokes his head around
[23:44] <highvoltage> LaserJock: it's something that needs to be said though. any suggestion for improvement?
[23:44] <LaserJock> yes
[23:45] <JoshuaRL> a project has community roots and involvement, but is a little different than a community
[23:45]  * Lns agrees w/Laserjock that any statement should be "positive" (i.e. don't say what we're not)
[23:45] <highvoltage> """
[23:45] <highvoltage> Edubuntu is a group of people that are passionate about education and free software. It is a group of people who work together on projects that benefits Ubuntu in education.
[23:45] <highvoltage> """
[23:45] <highvoltage> is that better?
[23:46] <Lns> highvoltage: s/free/open source/ ?
[23:47] <highvoltage> I guess "open source" is more ubuntu'y
[23:47] <JoshuaRL> highvoltage: free software.  We work together ... that benefit Ubuntu ..."
[23:47] <Lns> ....or even gnu/linux'y?
[23:47] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is a community project whose mission is to bring the philosophy, passions, and promises of the Ubuntu to educational settings.
[23:47] <highvoltage> I like "free software" more but if anyone feels strong about it I guess we can change it
[23:48] <LaserJock> s/of the/of/
[23:48] <JoshuaRL> highvoltage: free software is more inclusive
[23:48] <LaserJock> free software is also more confusing :-0
[23:48] <Lns> highvoltage: I dunno. A *lot* of non-OSS people equate "Free Software" with "Freeware" (and thus "crap")
[23:48] <highvoltage> s/educational settings/educational environments/ ?
[23:48] <LaserJock> yeah
[23:49] <LaserJock> I *think* that's our "take home" statement right? We're Ubuntu for Education
[23:49] <Lns> especially in educational environments where they scour around for cheap software
[23:49] <highvoltage> Lns: well, educating people who are ignorant is better than ignoring the ignorance
[23:49] <Lns> highvoltage: I agree 100%...but you can't expect to educate someone with your mission statement alone
[23:50] <LaserJock> highvoltage: alternatively, educating people without intro statement isn't necessarily a good diea
[23:50] <LaserJock> s/without/with the/
[23:50]  * LaserJock can't type
[23:50] <LaserJock> anybody object to: Edubuntu is a community project whose mission is to bring the philosophy, passions, and promises of Ubuntu to educational environments.
[23:51] <JoshuaRL> LaserJock: sounds nice
[23:51] <JoshuaRL> LaserJock: but i shouldnt have a vote :)
[23:51] <Lns> LaserJock: "Promises" kinda doesn't sit well with me but i love the rest
[23:52] <LaserJock> Lns: well, Ubuntu has the 4 promises, which Edubuntu has traditionally also promoted
[23:52] <Lns> ok...point taken from upstream ;)
[23:52] <highvoltage> I think it's important to say that edubuntu is part of ubuntu.
[23:52] <highvoltage> """
[23:52] <highvoltage> Edubuntu is a community project within Ubuntu whose mission is to bring the philosophy, passions, and promises of Ubuntu to educational environments.
[23:52] <highvoltage> how is that?
[23:53] <highvoltage> """
[23:53] <LaserJock> I can go with that I think
[23:53] <JoshuaRL> highvoltage: i think the "how is that?" is superfluous
[23:53] <JoshuaRL> :)
[23:53] <highvoltage> pygi / stgraber / Lns ^^^ ?
[23:53] <stgraber> highvoltage: +1
[23:53] <LaserJock> I'd like to avoid "based on" or "derived from", etc. as that is somewhat limiting
[23:53] <highvoltage> JoshuaRL: yes it is. sue me.
[23:54] <LaserJock> but "within" is accurate and short ;-)
[23:54] <Lns> highvoltage: I'm good with that, though the double "Ubuntu" ... i don't want to be nit-picky =)
[23:54] <Lns> i'm good =)
[23:55] <highvoltage> Lns: heh
[23:55] <LaserJock> I'm not sure how to reword to get rid of an Ubuntu
[23:55] <LaserJock> oh, I know
[23:55] <Lns> how about...
[23:56] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is a community project within Ubuntu whose mission is to bring its philosophy, passions, and promises to educational environments.
[23:56] <Lns> "Edubuntu is a community project within Ubuntu whose mission is to bring its philosophies, passions, and promises to educational environments."
[23:56] <Lns> ha!
[23:56] <LaserJock> score!!
[23:56]  * Lns highfives #edubuntu
[23:56] <highvoltage> objective 1:
[23:56] <highvoltage> """
[23:56] <highvoltage> The first objective of Edubuntu is to bring an education focus to Ubuntu. This means packaging and maintaining learning, teaching, and administration tools targeted at the educational user experience. Edubuntu will strive to make it easy to install and use educational software that applies to all ages, subjects, languages and all ability levels. Edubuntu recognizes that education is not just tools, but also content. It also sees the need
[23:57] <LaserJock> woah
[23:57] <LaserJock> we're not done with the intro yet are we?
[23:58]  * highvoltage rewinds
[23:58] <LaserJock> that was just the intro sentence
[23:58] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ok
[23:58] <LaserJock> now we gotta summarize what that all means
[23:58] <LaserJock> and basically outline everything to come
[23:58] <highvoltage> I guess I'm too big a fan of simplicity and keeping things short.
[23:58] <highvoltage> ok
[23:59] <LaserJock> short is good, for sure
[23:59] <LaserJock> and I'm often wordy
[23:59] <LaserJock> but we need to make sure people can read this and understand
[23:59]  * LaserJock is in thesis mode so watch out