=== carolija is now known as Kubuntu-SR === Kubuntu-SR is now known as carolija === MaWaLe1 is now known as MaWaLe [10:54] elky: persia: lifeless: Hi alla [10:55] hi [10:55] amachu, Hey [10:55] *all [10:55] lifeless told me that he wouldn't be able to make it today. [10:55] persia: are you also at UDS? [10:55] I am. [10:56] so we are three. unless zakame, belutz or themuso are going to turn out [10:56] elky: Hi [10:57] persia, the others not within sight? [10:57] I'll peer about for the one I know to be around [10:58] persia: ok [10:58] pyc: darkvertex: Hi [10:59] hi [10:59] Hello. Good afternoon. [10:59] hi, this is my second round :) [10:59] Hello good afternoon bosses [10:59] pyc: darkvertex: Thanks for joining. We are awaiting one more member of the board for Quorum. We have to wait. Hope you understand [11:00] ok [11:01] ok with me [11:01] * drubin waits for meeting to start [11:02] * persia has a lead, and will report again soon. [11:06] We should reach quorum as soon as a laptop is set up. [11:08] persia: who is that? [11:09] Hey folks. [11:09] hi [11:09] Assuming we have no network connectivity issues here at UDS, we should be right to go. [11:11] TheMuso: Hi [11:11] So we start.. [11:11] elky: are you there? [11:11] yup [11:11] elky: great [11:12] persia: We start now [11:12] your pinging me made me realise i havent eaten yet, so i'm ordering food :-P but carry on. [11:12] pyc: Welcome back! [11:12] hi, thanks :) [11:12] who is on Council for this loco meeting? [11:12] pyc: Go ahead introducing yourself [11:12] Hi, i'm Loell Erecre, most of my tehcnical contribution lies in ubuntuforums.org [11:12] s/loco/Membership council/ [11:13] My forum work started since late 2005, in areas of yahoo instant messaging, webcams, screencasting. [11:13] of which i tend to help promptly in troubleshootings. [11:13] almost two years after, because I was already known to have consistenly been helping people back then, the philippine LoCo team gave me the privelege to be the LoCo's primary moderator in 2007. [11:13] not only did I do LoCo modship functions since then, I've also maintained prompt replies for users technical problems posted in the Philippine Loco forum, [11:13] I tried to be as detailed as i can if job doesn't get in the way. ;) [11:13] drubin, https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-asia-oceania/+members [11:13] parallel to this, I also do extensive testing for gyachi yahoo messaging client. [11:13] 've also been packaging it upstream since 2006 for ubuntu users, and a year ago in my PPA, constantly updating it for every incremental release from the project. [11:14] I have just notified debian for an ITP for the said software. [11:14] in addition since Ubuntu Net Cafe has been slowly on the rise, i provided deb packages for "cafe con leche" cafe timer and management, for ubuntu users to use and helping them in setting up their internet shop by advising them on the forums. [11:14] pyc: Well done. [11:14] re debian. [11:14] and among one of my little contributions is a web app for searching PPAs (http://ppa-search.appspot.com/) [11:14] It started late last year, probably of little significance, but it made ppa users aware of what others were searching, thereby making a package advertising of some sort. :) [11:14] I believe that's it... [11:14] thanks TheMuso :)( [11:15] pyc, What's the state of gyachi in the Ubuntu repositories? [11:15] i belive i have supporters here, just ready to sound off :) [11:15] persia: none yet [11:16] * drubin is here for pyc [11:16] i'm here an internet cafe owner that uses ubuntu OS exclusively [11:16] * SamhainXIII is here for pyc as well [11:16] persia reason for that, is questionable which was just resolved lately [11:16] me here also for pyc... [11:16] yay for pyc! [11:16] his contributions of the forums have been great! He has be long standing memember as well as a active loco moderator [11:18] pyc, Could you tell us about some of the seminars you have conducted? [11:18] i believe, i did not, its my future plan [11:18] loell has been a great help for my icafe shop here in the Philippines like he said ccl is my timer [11:18] pyc, My apologies. I misread. [11:19] pyc, Could you tell us about some of the seminars you plan to conduct? [11:19] foss awareness mostly, and introduction to ubuntu would be most common [11:20] Could anyone else on the membership board enlighten me as to whether this is the same candidate who talked about a web PPA search a few weeks back? [11:20] From memory it isn't, but I can't exactly remember. [11:20] i.e I am not 100% sure. [11:21] dont think so... [11:21] TheMuso: yeah, he's the one, PPA search [11:21] TheMuso: yes [11:21] same person, like i said this is second application :) [11:21] amachu, Knightlust, thanks. [11:22] http://ppa-search.appspot.com/ [11:22] can't remember what nick you used originally. [11:22] amachu: Yes, I got the link on his wiki page. [11:22] it's always pyc heheh [11:23] that was a very busy meeting iirc [11:23] pyc: Is there any reason why you wrote a separate client, rather than helping improve a client like pidgin? [11:23] Or did you not write it? [11:23] themuso, i'm not the developer, but specific yahoo protocols is difficult [11:24] not for pidgin imho, like yahoo msg15 prtocol and such [11:24] pyc: Right, just double checked, thanks for the confirmation. [11:24] hi guys; turns out I'm in bangkok airport :P [11:25] but not for long, so I won't be voting [11:26] lifeless: glad to see you [11:26] lifeless, i didnt know they relocated UDS to bangkok! [11:26] * elky ducks [11:26] I would give +1 for pyc this time.. [11:27] amachu, agreed, +1 from me too [11:27] * drubin cheers [11:27] +1 from me. [11:27] +1 here, Jerome's feedback is likely the clincher for me, as well as the many other endorcements. [11:27] cool.. Welcome pyc and keep up the good work [11:28] thanks!!! :D [11:28] yay for pyc!!! congratulations! [11:28] congrats boss loell [11:28] thanks Knightlust [11:28] pyc is in? [11:28] * dodimar cheers for pyc [11:28] yey! [11:28] lifeless: would you like to think of voting now, we are going to call up the next participant [11:28] oh thanks to all who attended for my application :) [11:28] pyc, dont forget to help me my network manager ha [11:29] darkvertex: Please go ahead [11:30] hi, my name is Hertatijanto Hartono. I only joined Launchpad since late 2008 [11:30] amachu: I don't have the focus/time right now. For the former see planet,f or the latter I'm boarding an airplane very shortly [11:31] lifeless: ok [11:31] I haven't done much direct public projects using ubuntu, but in the office / workplace I applied my linux knowledge through ubuntu 8.04 [11:32] I am a system admin at the company hq [11:33] I have done some translations in Launchpad [11:33] I guess that's it [11:33] :) [11:33] darkvertex: Glad that you started contributing. I would give +0 this time, the wiki need have more information... [11:34] I agree with amachu, +0 also. I don't feel there is sustained contribution to the Ubuntu community. [11:34] darkvertex: continue with the good work.. you should make it in future.. [11:34] darkvertex, https://translations.launchpad.net/~darkvertex looks like it might not be a complete list. Is there other documentation of either your translations or your efforts leading the translation team? [11:35] persia: no, this Launchpad Indonesian Translators team has just been started [11:36] amachu: thanks for the encouragement [11:36] TheMuso: thanks [11:36] I'm going to vote -1 for now: I think that more time, and more docs would certainly raise my vote. [11:36] and elky? [11:36] 0 from me. [11:37] persia: I believe the translation team could be managed and improved upon [11:37] darkvertex, I'm certain of it, and I even think you're in a great position to lead that. I just don't think you've done it yet. [11:38] persia: the documentation of the team is almost non existent at the moment [11:38] darkvertex: best wishes for the future [11:38] is there anything else that anyone would like to bring upon? [11:38] darkvertex, There's some docs on the wiki about setting up and coordinating teams. Please ask for help if you get stuck. [11:39] Not from ne [11:40] I'd like to see either more mailing list discussion of nominees for empty positions, or an invitation for candidates to attend one of our meetings. [11:40] persia: will do [11:40] thanks for your time guys :) [11:40] darkvertex, Great. Good luck, and we look forward to seeing your reapplication in a few months. [11:41] thanks bosses for your vote for loell [11:42] good. comparitively a short meeting. [11:42] a nice change after the past few weeks. [11:42] thankyou every one for participating.. [11:42] Has an announcement been made publically about new candidates being needed? [11:43] TheMuso: new candidates for the Board? [11:43] amachu: Yes. [11:43] yes [11:43] There was one when we were first authorised to grow, but that was long enough ago we might benefit from another call. [11:43] I think we probably would. [11:44] there is one nomiation from persia, and i would like have your opinion on that, for taking a decision [11:45] If nobody objects, I think we ought invite the nominee to the next meeting. [11:45] We can take a decision then. [11:45] persia: sounds good [11:45] i will add it to the agenda too [11:46] And who volunteers to arrange another call for nominees? We still have open slots, even if the current nominee is approved. [11:46] Sounds fine by me. [11:47] persia: another call with? [11:47] call for nominees. [11:47] We need more nominations, because we're short on board members. [11:48] persia: yes. people whom I had initially are now out of our time zone. i will look into logs etc., and try to make a nomination [11:49] amachu, Great! [11:49] TheMuso: lifeless: elky: Kindly look out for nominations.. and suggest if you have any on the list [11:49] I'll do my best, however most of my attention is towards the dev community... [11:50] TheMuso: Thanks [11:51] * TheMuso thinks we're done here. [11:51] persia: shall we wind up this meeting [11:51] SOunds good to me. [11:52] our next meeting is scheduled on 09 June 09, 10.00 UTC [11:52] will do (sorry, distracted by late dinner) [11:52] thank you everyone for partipating [11:52] Great, should have no probem making that one. [11:52] See you all then. [11:52] Now, to the rest ofr UDS. [11:52] gudday and ahv a nice day [12:01] [12:02] good morning [12:02] hello all [12:02] hello everyone [12:02] hello [12:03] !startmeeting [12:03] Sorry, I don't know anything about startmeeting [12:03] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda [12:03] #startmeeting [12:03] Meeting started at 06:03. The chair is dholbach. [12:03] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [12:03] I don't think mdke will be able to join us [12:03] hello everybody [12:03] mako should be around though [12:03] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda [12:03] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda [12:03] we only have one agenda item today, the other two are for June 2nd [12:04] [TOPIC] Ubuntu One [12:04] New Topic: Ubuntu One [12:04] mdke has registered concerns about ubuntu one in http://launchpad.net/bugs/375345 [12:04] sladen: are you around? [12:04] Ubuntu bug 375345 in ubunet ""Ubuntu One" name creates confusion" [Undecided,Incomplete] [12:04] [LINK] http://launchpad.net/bugs/375345 [12:04] LINK received: http://launchpad.net/bugs/375345 [12:04] he can't make this meeting but we should discuss his comment(s) there [12:06] I guess https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubunet/+bug/375345/comments/62 is what we're talking about? [12:06] Ubuntu bug 375345 in ubunet ""Ubuntu One" name creates confusion" [Undecided,Incomplete] [12:07] can i have a quick poll to see who wants to participate in this conversation? [12:08] o/ [12:08] we have a lot of people lurking in the channel, and all the CC folks who are here are in one room [12:08] me [12:08] so, we could just TALK amongst ourselves if nobody else wanted to participate :-) [12:08] * sbc listens in [12:08] I see. [12:08] ok, yay, we have folks here [12:08] hey mako, let's get started [12:08] greetings [12:09] first, can we deal with the trademark issue as defined in the bug? [12:09] i think there are more general issues [12:09] * mako nods [12:09] but lets deal with them one by one [12:09] It hasn't been clear exactly which issue is in the scope of which governance body. [12:09] on the trademark front the easy answer is "it's not a trademark violation if you own the trademark" [12:09] belated o/ [12:09] so, pass on a technicality [12:10] but i think it's important to address the folks who are concerned about the spirit of the law, as much as the letter of it [12:10] * elky hugs Hobbsee [12:10] sabdfl: That's not an answer to mdke's comment 62, which is probably the one in question. [12:10] elky: *hugs back* [12:10] there are good people who have said "the spirit of the ubuntu trademark is that it denotes goods that are in line with certain value" [12:10] it's more the brand than the trademark [12:10] but i think we should discuss it here [12:10] is that a good starting point? [12:10] sabdfl imo its not so much that it was done, but that the CC/community wasnt notified that it was coming, or at least given a chance to give input [12:11] Vantrax: Different people feel differently about that. [12:11] for us to say "not a legal violation, but worth discussing from a brand-and-values perspective"? [12:11] It's not either of those in particular. [12:11] sabdfl: That sounds good. [12:11] But brand and trademark are very much intertwined. [12:11] ok, so there's the heads-up issue, and the values issue [12:11] i'd like to defer the heads-up issue, because it's more general [12:12] let's start with the question of the "ubuntu brand" and whether u1 is consistent with it [12:12] open floor... wgrant? [12:12] Ah, well... [12:13] right. Vantrax? [12:14] quoting mdke: [12:14] More worryingly, Ubuntu One will almost certainly affect the perception of Ubuntu as a project. The project will be seen, at least in some degree, as less open. That also happened when Ubuntu decided to use Launchpad as its development management software. But Launchpad is all too clearly a separate project to Ubuntu, and carried a promise that it would be open source in the future, a promise that is now being carried out. I think that the ef [12:14] Right. [12:14] The trademark policy is meant to prevent that from happening. [12:15] ... the effect of Ubuntu One could be more serious, because it is not clearly demarcated as being a separate project to Ubuntu. This is the first significant time that I'm aware of that a non-free project that Canonical has produced has carried such strong associations with the Ubuntu project itself. [12:15] And the problem here is that Canonical doesn't have to follow the policy. [12:15] wgrant: are you talk about a different issue? the fact that canonical has a privileged position in the Ubuntu ecosystem? [12:15] wgrant: which policy are you referring to right now? [12:15] for example, if the CC "owned the trademark", would that address your concerns? [12:15] sabdfl: Hmm, true, we were talking about the branding, weren't we? [12:16] sabdfl: But yes, I was talking about that. We should come back to that later, I guess. [12:16] a brand is not a legal entity, it's "what people think about you" [12:16] dholbach: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy [12:16] o/ - Don't want to get into arguments, but am willing to make a short statement when it's ok to fit it in. [12:16] mdke's point, i think, is that this use of the Ubuntu brand will mean that people think differently about Ubuntu [12:16] go ahead eric, if you have it pre-prepped [12:16] sabdfl: indeed. [12:17] Even if the name fits the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, I suggest Canonical may wish to consider the feelings of the community. [12:17] Ubuntu specifically is the distribution or related to the community support for the distribution. To me canonical represents the commercial aspect, and add on services. I kinda think the two should not be mixed, but I dont feel strongly about it [12:17] I have to admit that when I first learned that Ubuntu One was commercial I felt uncomfortable. [12:17] I worked through my feelings and listened to all of the different positions folks came out with subsequently, but must admit I would be very impressed with Canonical if you were to change the name to not included "Ubuntu". [12:17] sabdfl: if this keeps going ahead, anyhing and everything "ubuntu" is no longer free and open sourced. [12:17] erichammond_: wrapped? [12:18] that's all, thanks :) [12:18] sorry, any given thing. and I think i've spoken out of turn, sorry [12:18] Hobbsee: on this one, i think we want to keep multithreading to a minimum :-) [12:18] it will make it easier for folks reading the logs [12:18] wgrant: on Canonical's privileged position [12:18] sabdfl: yeah, sorry. I was trying to agree to your synopsis of mdke's point, but was slow. [12:18] Certainly. It's a complex issue, and discussion is already convoluted enough. [12:19] it's more or less a fact of life, as I see it, and one that is unlikely to be a surprise to most Ubuntu users or members of the community [12:20] sabdfl: Right, it's always going to be there. [12:20] Canonical does try to set a high standard for the way it collaborates with the community on Ubuntu, but it's privileged position is a function of the fact that Canonical and Ubuntu were founded together, symbiotically, by design [12:20] i hope we are a leader in how you do that well [12:20] but i don't think it would be constructive to try to imagine a world where that symbiosis is broken [12:20] Oh no, I don't think so either. [12:21] It's beneficial to both. [12:21] But in this case, I think it's not clear exactly what role Canonical holds. [12:21] if that's a surprise to folks in the community, i imagine they would migrate to other projects that don't have this issue (by design), like gentoo or debian [12:21] dholbach: sorry, /me waves hand [12:21] i think the we want to make sure there is room in the commercial ubuntu ecosystem for more companies than canonical, too [12:22] but that's not to suggest that canonical's position should not, or would not, be privileged [12:22] * mako finishes reading all the recent stuff on the bug [12:22] sladen: hi son [12:22] (is there any debate on this? This sounds like what everyone accepts to be true) [12:22] how we define the line of "acceptable use of that privileged position", i don't know, other than to take matters on a case by case basis [12:23] That's probably why it has rarely come up before - but here we have a specific case. [12:23] I don't think it can be generally defined. [12:23] yes, that's true [12:23] there's a few different ways to approach this issue [12:24] mako: will you share them with us? :-) [12:24] I'm trying to be fairly agnostic on this issue, and migrated it to the CC agenda to try and defuse the Won't Fix/New/Won't Fix/New fighting that was going on [12:24] mako: he's laughing, btw ;-) [12:24] sorry, i'm trying to digest things a little bit [12:25] so the first way is about values, and presumabley the free software position in particular [12:25] the implication there would be that if the ubuntu one service were free, that would be fine [12:26] matt lee's comment on the bug (and a number of others) echo that position [12:26] another position is that this about the line between canonical and ubuntu [12:26] corey and mdke seem to take that position [12:26] mako: free of charge, or franklin street free? [12:27] sabdfl: franklin street free in mattl's case [12:27] like, "the ubuntu name should be reserved for things that are totally free" [12:27] sabdfl: There are people in both camps, I believe. But more FSS-free. [12:27] ok, let's talk about the values piece [12:27] it could be franklin street, with the default setting, and website pointed at canonical [12:27] right [12:28] sladen: Somwhat like Launchpad will be in a couple of months. That sounds sane. [12:28] so i want to explore the second issue first [12:28] it touches on the brand - "what does Ubuntu mean in people's minds", and the issue Hobbsee raised, which is the "free or not" one [12:28] because i think it's interesting [12:28] mako: would you agree that ubuntu also stands for "it just works", and that we've been pragmatic on freedom to achieve that? [12:29] so if we argue that the issue is just about ubuntu and canonical, we might say that the problem with calling this program ubuntu one is that the software itself uses in the ubuntu brand (and the good will created by the community) to reinforce canonical's position [12:29] in a way that would be hard for other members to compete with [12:29] in the past we've done binary drivers when we felt it was warranted, and while we took heat from some quarters for that, it was a decision driven by the brand of Ubuntu delivering the best possible experience with - broadly defined - free client apps? [12:29] so someone might say that if there were some existing protocal that ubuntu one was using [12:30] sabdfl: But those drivers were, and still are, forced on us by hardware manufacturers. [12:30] and existing implications, etc [12:30] then it would be ok [12:30] so jabber might be a good example [12:30] sabdfl: Here we have proprietary software created just next to the community. [12:30] sabdfl: It's very different. [12:30] I'm hopeful that since ubuntu one shares a name/intended functionality so intimately with Ubuntu, it could live at www.ubuntu.com/one/ Then comes the question of what critia it would have to meet to be featured there. (eg. the Ubuntu.com/employment page does not exclusively feature Canonical jobs, but those that are relevant, interesting, and add value) [12:30] wgrant: we are not forced to use them, we chose to [12:31] sabdfl: There was very strong reason to. [12:31] if canonical made an im service that used jabber. they shouldn't call the SERVICE UbuntuTalk, but they could call the client UbuntuTalk and have it default to using the CanonicalTalk servers [12:31] sladen: it's a good point re ubuntu.com/employment [12:32] mako: i'm willing to bet that the ubuntu archives have long held packages which talk proprietary protocols [12:32] sabdfl: And I can see the good reasons to integrate a service like Ubuntu One into the desktop. [12:32] pidgin? [12:32] samba? [12:32] sabdfl: i am trying to separate those issues [12:32] sabdfl: but none of those have the name 'Ubuntu' in them [12:32] sabdfl: There isn't a conflict of interest in the usage of binary drivers, no one who made the decision to use them benefits from their usage (except from having hardware that works, etc) [12:33] Although, that may be off topic for this thread. [12:33] Flannel: not directly, but they benefit from the adoption of Ubuntu [12:33] sabdfl: forget about whether ubuntu contains proprietary protocals. this is about proprietary protocals CALLED ubuntu which reinforce [12:33] mako: at least for the moment, I *think* all the protocols are in fact implemented by code which is free [12:34] sabdfl: Yes, and the same benefit would come to Canonical if the service were named Canonical One [12:34] sabdfl: it's about using the goodwill associated with the brand that the community feels some degree of attachment to and responsibility for to reinforce one companies market position [12:34] but, i take the point that if they aren't then it becomes an issue, and it might [12:34] so, coming back to the brand itself [12:34] i am no position to tell canonical how to run its business, although i'll be happy to make suggestions :) [12:34] mako: and you'll always find willing ears there ;-) [12:35] i don't think it's right to say that "ubuntu == FLOSS" on the client side [12:35] this issue is about ubuntu. and it's important that we be able ot have that converstion separately [12:35] we have binary drivers and firmware blobs, and don't devote a lot of cycles to agonising over that [12:35] the reason that corey and mdke and many others on the bug seem to upset is that they feel that this blurs the line between the two [12:36] we also have mechanisms for skype and similar (acroread, flash etc) [12:36] it's also not new for the trademark itself to denote something commercial [12:36] there's a funny relationship between proprietariness and this way of framing the issue [12:36] for example, the authors of the official ubuntu book asked for that, for commercial reasons [12:36] again sabdfl I think the issue is none of these bear the Ubuntu name, and most people think of it in different terms [12:36] and it was licensed that way to them by canonical [12:36] sabdfl: Ubuntu == "just works" "coolness" "I won't get screwed up" "hipness" "brown desktop" [12:37] sabdfl: But the Ubuntu book is about Ubuntu. [12:37] Ubuntu One doesn't seem to be... [12:37] similarly, Official Ubuntu Partners get the use of the name on commercial terms [12:37] wgrant: that's disingenuous [12:37] indeed it's matter of having Ubuntu in the name there, not if Ubuntu contains something or not [12:37] training partners, hardware partners, isv's [12:37] wgrant: Ubuntu One is absolutely about helping the users of Ubuntu [12:37] there has already been confusion in terms of community support avenues and even media. -marketing has had at least one journo that i'm aware of wander in there asking about One. the support side is only going to continue whilever the name is the same. [12:37] wgrant: just as much as the book is [12:37] sabdfl: sure, and part of the requirement was that the book being freely licensed [12:37] sabdfl: which it is [12:37] in that case, yes, but not in all cases [12:38] i would object to having a book being called "The Official Ubuntu Book" if it were not freely licensed (not to mention that i wouldn't work on it) [12:38] people are prefectly able to go about making ubuntu books [12:38] (Regarding the protocol bit of the discussion: as I understand it the ubuntuone-storage-protocol package is AGPL3.) [12:38] is there a requirement that everything containing "ubuntu" needs to be freely licenced, though? Should there be? Is this what the issue actually falls back to? [12:39] Hobbsee: what about multiverse and restricted? [12:39] Hobbsee: i don't believe there is such a requirement, and i think it would be harmful to try to retrofit one now [12:39] dholbach: i was meaning what gets distributed on cds, in media, etc. [12:39] sabdfl: right [12:39] sabdfl: then my third question is "does the community perceive that that is the requirement?" [12:39] we have always walked a careful, pragmatic line [12:39] Hobbsee: but still it's "Ubuntu Multiverse" and "restricted" ends up on the CDs [12:40] Hobbsee: so, i think that's a good idea but that doesn't address the issue here [12:40] i can go back to the jabber example [12:40] if canonical runs a jabber service, there's an open question of whether they should EVER call it UbuntuTalk [12:40] right [12:40] even if they run unmodified ejabberd or something [12:41] why, mako? i'm not sure i understand [12:41] i'm pretty comfortable that as long as the client is free, it should/can named ubuntu [12:42] mako: the u1 client is free? [12:42] it's GPLed [12:42] yes, i know [12:42] but there's a service necessary to use it [12:42] (and the service also carries the Ubuntu brand) [12:42] mako: well; that's an interestingly broad definition of 'free' [12:42] it's hard to unpack the two [12:43] elmo: i'm not talking about whether its free [12:43] IIRC, previously, we've worked quite hard to ensure packages that could potentially benefit others (and which, we'd like to encourage the use of by others) don't use the word "ubuntu' in the software name, or branding ("eg. Ubuntu Menu Editor") 'ubuntuone-storage-protocol' fails that (to my mind) by it conflates a protocol description (reusable) with an implementation [12:43] mako: so what you're actually saying is that you're comfortable as long as the client, and at least the core things that are necessary for it, are free, right? [12:43] i'm saying that calling the particularly instance of server software running on a canonical machine "ubuntu" is one way to understand the issue [12:43] er, necessary for it to be used, are free [12:44] * mako nods to sladen [12:45] part of the reason this is complicated is that it's not clear WHAT we are talking about [12:45] sladen: I'm pretty sure those kind of name changes (e.g jockey too) was to make the software more palatable to !Ubuntu distros like Fedora [12:45] there is (a) the client software (b) the server software (c) the protocal (d) the particular instance of the server software being run as a service by canonical [12:45] elmo: why should that not apply to ubunet? What's paletable to Fedora is probably paletable to community.*@ubuntuland [12:46] sladen: *blink* wut [12:46] mako: Given that there are no alternative server implementations, are those things separate? [12:46] sladen: Fedora didn't want to use something called 'Ubuntu'. I'm not sure I see your analogy [12:47] elmo: it's the opposite, you're agreeing with each other [12:47] sladen: the question is, is ubuntuone-storage-protocol actually usable by anyone else, who isn't ubuntu? [12:47] wgrant: right, so there's an argument that since the whole point of this software is make all these things transparent to the user, they should be presented as one [12:48] in which, if we decided that those things imply differences courses of action with the name, we've got a lowest common demonitor problem i think [12:48] mako: can I back up a sec to your jabber example? do you think that would be wrong because Canonical would be running a service called Ubuntu? Or because of non-free aspects of it? [12:48] mako: Given that I don't really see Ubiquity asking 'Which service do you want Ubuntu One to use?', I think they should be one thing for now. [12:48] silbs: i'm trying to unpack the example by giving a free software everywhere example [12:49] silbs: so free jabber client, free jabber protocal, server install of free software [12:49]