[00:20] <quitte> hi. so once again i might give upstart a try. is it finally in a state where it can work without any sysv style init?
[00:22] <sadmac_> quitte: depends on what you do with it
[00:22] <sadmac_> quitte: it doesn't propose a cohesive alternative to that though.
[00:25] <quitte> sadmac_: if i don't install the upstart-compat-sysv package it will ignore all the rc* ?
[00:26] <sadmac_> quitte: what distro is this?
[00:27] <quitte> debian sid
[00:28] <sadmac_> dunno what that package does on sid. I'm guessing the answer is yes though, but I'm not sure your system would boot afterward
[00:33] <quitte> i'd really like to get rid of sysv init. but every time i checked upstart was did nothing but be compatible to sysv.  i would really have preferred if no time had been wasted on compatibility, but maybe i'm missing some good reason there.
[00:33] <quitte> anyhow - i think it's the same on ubuntu - shouldn't dpkg continue working even if it can't find update-rc.d?
[00:33] <sadmac_> its hard :) upstart has been redesigned at pretty much every major release. we haven't gotten it right yet
[00:35] <quitte> i hope you finally got the compatibility complete enough to be able to not work on that anymore then
[00:35] <sadmac_> next release will be right
[00:35] <quitte> hahaha
[00:35] <quitte> sorry, but i don't believe you
[00:35] <quitte> but i sure hope so
[00:38] <sadmac_> patches and thoughts welcome :)
[00:39] <quitte> sadmac_: ok. I'll make a debian live system without sysv and then look into the current state. and i'll keep complaining. glad you guys are actually listening
[00:39] <sadmac_> we try
[00:40] <quitte> sadmac_: the thing about dpkg was a serious suggestion. make it easy to get rid of sysvinit as completely as possible. so that it becomes easy to work on the other parts. fixing the other packages to work with upstart, even when sysvinit is gone.
[00:42] <quitte> if i have to keep sysv-rc around packages won't complain when they depend on update-rc.d
[00:43] <sadmac_> quitte: dunno, I'm the fedora guy :) RH has ISVs to think of. They'll probably make us keep the sysv interfaces around for awhile
[00:44] <quitte> isv? some vendors i guess
[00:45] <sadmac_> got the v right :)
[00:45] <sadmac_> independent software vendors
[01:44] <quitte> hi again. i'm not sure if upstart actually started after the initramfs finished. doesn't it give any message at all?
[01:45] <sadmac_> quitte: not if its working right
[01:45] <quitte> sadmac_: ok. so not getting a message may or may not mean it's working right?
[01:45] <sadmac_> quitte: you can add init=/sbin/init -v to the kernel arguments to get it to make noise
[01:46] <quitte> i guess i need to add " to that?
[01:47] <sadmac_> ...I didn't think so. maybe.
[01:47] <quitte> found it despite the keyboard layout
[01:55] <quitte> ok. upstart is working. would be nice if it gave some feedback without explicitly asking, though
[01:55] <sadmac_> its left to the individual scripts to make noise, just like in sysv
[01:56] <quitte> sysv says something like sysvinit version blablabla
[01:57] <sadmac_> does it?
[01:58] <quitte> yes
[01:58] <sadmac_> hmm
[02:00] <quitte> will upstart be part of the early root someday? i still haven't seen a way of waiting for the device containing the rootfs to appear and mounting it that seemed completely right.
[02:00] <sadmac_> up to distributors
[02:00] <sadmac_> Fedora says no. Ubuntu will do it because Scott is making those decisions there. Debian I don't know.
[02:01] <quitte> debian didn't decide what to do with upstart it seems
[02:02] <sadmac_> wait until its good for something like the rest of us :)
[02:03] <quitte> now that's encouraging to hear. upstart still isn't good for anything?
[02:03] <sadmac_> quitte: http://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/fosdem-video/2009/maintracks/upstart.xvid.avi
[02:04] <sadmac_> best you have all the background
[02:04] <quitte> i even considered switching to bsd once, so that i could play with launched
[02:05] <sadmac_> is mainstream BSD doing that now? thought that was still an apple thing
[02:06] <quitte> nah. i think it was a gsoc project or just a for fun project. it was dead the last time i checked
[02:15] <quitte> great! the replacement initscripts are gone
[03:36] <jort> Where can I find up-to-date docs for upstart? I found Scott Remnant's blog (which is GREAT! help), but any official docs?
[03:37] <jort> sorry, I meant to add "for setting up jobs"
[03:38] <jort> upstart.ubuntu seems to be 0.2 versions behind
[03:41]  * jort looks around the room
[03:41] <jort> anyone alive here?
[03:45]  * jort pokes ubuntulog with a stick, to see if it's alive
[03:52]  * jort examines the pool of blood under soren's lifeless corpse
[04:00] <quitte> my impression is that you already found all the docs.
[04:01] <jort> is that all there is? No up-to-date list of stanzas and their options?
[04:02] <quitte> i don't know. but if you find one please tell me
[04:03] <quitte> oh. also this is a channel, not a room
[04:04]  * jort takes a ferry across the channel
[04:05]  * quitte tries to make a joke about ferries in his room
[04:09]  * jort starts reading the definitive documentation - the sourcecode
[04:09] <jort> yay opensource!
[04:10] <quitte> jort: please keep the wiki open and add your findings
[11:19] <keesj> Hi
[11:28] <ion_> LWN day :-)
[11:28] <Keybuk> indeed
[12:05] <keesj> subscribers?
[20:56] <LLStarks> yo.