[04:00] <sbalneav> Evening all
[04:01] <stgraber> evening sbalneav
[04:05] <sbalneav> stgraber: Patch looked ok to you?
[04:10] <stgraber> sbalneav: yep
[04:11] <sbalneav> It seems to cure the problem for me.
[04:28] <stgraber> sbalneav: can you merge it ?
[04:34] <sbalneav> Mind if I do it tomorrow?
[04:34] <sbalneav> I'm knee deep in ldap right now :)
[04:34] <highvoltage> good morning stgraber and sbalneav
[04:34] <stgraber> hi highvoltage
[04:34] <stgraber> sbalneav: np
[04:35] <stgraber> couldn't wait ... just ordered a new laptop :)
[04:37] <sbalneav> Cool, what kind?
[04:38] <stgraber> lenovo x200s
[04:39] <sbalneav> Nice
[04:40] <stgraber> yep, quite expensive but the hardware seems awesome for a laptop of that size :)
[04:41] <stgraber> (the CPU from my current laptop is actually faster but it's a lot bigger too and doesn't stay up long on battery)
[04:43] <sbalneav> I've gone small.  I've got an Acer Aspire One, and I love it.
[04:43] <highvoltage> lenovo x200 = <3
[05:00] <stgraber> highvoltage: saw too many of them in Barcelona, couldn't resist buying one ;)
[05:21] <sbalneav> Hmmm, looks like ldapscripts does most of what we want, in terms of setting up the initial ou's.
[05:22] <sbalneav> The templating system's fine, but we'll need to get something in there for handling password expiry, and account disabling.
[05:23] <stgraber> sbalneav: did you look at GoSA ?
[05:23] <sbalneav> there'll be some mods to the scripts needed, and some mode defaults added to the templates.
[05:23] <sbalneav> GoSA?
[05:23] <stgraber> web interface on top of ldap for easy user management, ACLs and templating
[05:24] <stgraber> requires an openldap and some custom ldap schema, other than that it works just fine (we're using it at Revolution Linux for some customers)
[05:25] <sbalneav> Doesn't ubuntu want something in general that will tie in with administration->users and groups?
[05:27] <stgraber> well, users and groups would need quite a lot of work to work correctly with large ldap deployments then
[05:27] <sbalneav> Well, users-and-groups is ok, as a front end.  The problem is the system-tools-backends package.
[05:27] <stgraber> I don't know if you tried doing a "getent passwd" on a LDAP server with 40000 users but that can take a while ;) so you'd need a tool that's quite good at doing filtering
[05:29] <sbalneav> Well, I don't have 40000 users, no.  But my understanding is (at least with openldap) that usually by default, there's very little indexing.
[05:30] <sbalneav> I'm certainly not AGAINST a web tool, however, it means that, for people who want local users and groups, they use one tool, and for people who want ldap, they *right away* have to learn another tool.
[05:31] <sbalneav> My preferred solution would be for small and medium, either local or ldap, if they can use adm-uag, and if they've got 40,000 users and GoSA does a better job of large deployments, then they can switch to that.
[05:32] <sbalneav> But I'm willing to suspect that our 90% use-case will be "under 500" users.
[05:32] <sbalneav> Another big thing that people seem to want is some kind of bulk import tool.
[05:32] <sbalneav> i.e. I have a spreadsheet of names, and I want to turn them all into users
[05:34] <alkisg> sbalneav++ :) (and good morning all)
[05:34] <sbalneav> Morning alkisg
[05:34] <stgraber> yeah, that's quite usual for schools to have that kind of files
[05:34] <sbalneav> I suspect we can hash it out a little more at the next meeting.
[14:47] <sbalneav> Morning all
[16:58] <bencrisford> stgraber: Ping
[17:22] <LaserJock> morning everybody
[17:26] <LaserJock> highvoltage, stgraber: ping
[17:37] <highvoltage> LaserJock: pong
[17:37] <highvoltage> LaserJock: good ping timing, I'm at my computer now for the first time today
[17:38] <LaserJock> are we going to have an EC meeting to get nubae approved?
[17:39] <highvoltage> well, reviewed at least (we can't assume approval). what time/date?
[17:42] <LaserJock> whenever I guess
[17:43] <highvoltage> would tomorrow be too short notice?
[17:44] <stgraber> LaserJock: pong
[17:44] <bencrisford> stgraber: Do I get a pong? :( :P
[17:45] <stgraber> bencrisford: pong too
[17:45] <bencrisford> :)
[17:45] <LaserJock> highvoltage: thursday or friday would be better for me
[17:45] <bencrisford> stgraber: Its meant to be my membership meeting today, but im sixth and I can only stay an hour.  Am I likely to be fitted in, or should I apply for a different board?
[17:46] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ok I think friday is good then
[17:46] <stgraber> bencrisford: I won't stay for much more than an hour either. Depends how many won't be at the meeting
[17:48] <bencrisford1> ok :/
[17:57] <highvoltage> LaserJock: what time? 16:00 UTC? (or was it 18:00 last time?)
[17:57] <LaserJock> whatever works for you guys
[17:58] <LaserJock> 16:00-18:00 URC are good times
[17:58] <LaserJock> *UTC
[17:58] <highvoltage> ok 18:00 then
[18:00] <stgraber> friday 18:00 UTC, noted
[18:00] <LaserJock> somebody want to send an email?
[18:02] <LaserJock> you know, it's really sad IMO that Linux nerds can spend hours and hours flaming each other on whether to use base 2 or base 10 math but couldn't care less about getting Linux into schools
[18:04] <highvoltage> LaserJock: it's not just Linux nerds per se, people generally just suck.
[18:04] <highvoltage> LaserJock: shall I send the announcement?
[18:05] <LaserJock> highvoltage: sure awesome
[18:06] <highvoltage> LaserJock: but yes, sad nontheless
[18:32] <highvoltage> LaserJock, stgraber, (others): https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
[18:32] <highvoltage> anything else we should add?
[18:32] <highvoltage> I'll post it to the list once we have a bit more in there
[18:34] <stgraber> highvoltage: looks good
[18:34] <LaserJock> yeah
[18:35] <LaserJock> I think those will actually take up the time
[18:38] <Svenstaro> I still didn't spot any UDS updates on the mailing list.
[18:39] <highvoltage> ok I wanted to add karmic discussion too, but I agree that's probably enough and that we can target the karmic stuff more thoroughly in another meeting
[18:40] <highvoltage> LaserJock: stgraber talked to cjwatson about enabling universe for edubuntu builds, and he said that it would be trivial to implement
[18:40] <highvoltage> implement/enable
[18:40] <LaserJock> yeah, I actually found the code for it a couple days ago
[18:40] <LaserJock> the problem will be Canonical supportability
[18:41] <highvoltage> LaserJock: !
[18:41] <highvoltage> (for lack of any words)
[18:41] <LaserJock> we can build with Universe but I wonder how that effects the ability of users to buy support
[18:41] <highvoltage> I guess we can care about Canonical supportability again when they acknowledge that edubuntu exists in the first place
[18:42] <highvoltage> LaserJock: perhaps this is something that we need to discuss, afaik we were all cool with enabling universe
[18:43] <LaserJock> well, I think we would just want to talk with Canonical
[18:43] <LaserJock> let them know or whatever
[18:43] <highvoltage> ok, 100%
[18:43] <LaserJock> regardless of my feelings about Canonical's position, it's a big shift for our users if they can no longer buy support from Canonical
[18:45] <LaserJock> even if we do add Universe, what's going to happen?
[18:45] <highvoltage> LaserJock: stgraber made a good point, we don't want to go through all the hoops of getting something like sugar into main, but it would be nice on the add-on disc
[18:45] <LaserJock> do we drop all of Edubuntu to Universe?
[18:45] <LaserJock> do we just add on stuff that's not in Main right now?
[18:46] <highvoltage> LaserJock: well if something is in main and it can stay there I see no point in demoting it
[18:46] <LaserJock> how much and to what kind of .iso?
[18:46] <highvoltage> LaserJock: and if it's officially supported it should stay so if possible
[18:46] <LaserJock> I actually can see some point
[18:46] <LaserJock> right now I'm the only Core Dev
[18:46] <LaserJock> if we drop to Universe then you have the whole MOTU team as potential sponsors
[18:46] <highvoltage> LaserJock: yep and stgraber can upload some stuff into main
[18:46] <highvoltage> LaserJock: *nod* exactly
[18:47] <LaserJock> I think using Universe will be a major benefit
[18:47] <LaserJock> especially since we'll have the archive reorganization at some point and the difference will all go away
[18:47] <LaserJock> *but* we do need to think about the ramifications and how to best go about it
[18:48] <LaserJock> so that'd be a good topic for the meeting
[18:48] <highvoltage> indeed. we seem to get a good response from the community council when we ask them about things
[18:48] <highvoltage> hmm, perhaps we should ask the technical board about this specific issue?
[18:49] <LaserJock> what would they decide?
[18:49] <LaserJock> hmm, not that you mention it
[18:49] <highvoltage> maybe not so much decide as just give official blessing. although I guess tb != canonical
[18:49] <LaserJock> 1) we should ask Canonical what would happen if we drop to Universe
[18:50] <LaserJock> 2) we should ask the TB what to do about the .iso issue (addon or full distro, where is it hosted)
[18:50] <highvoltage> well "drop to universe" sounds harsh. perhaps rather say include packages from universe, since we won't drop main
[18:50] <highvoltage> LaserJock: yep. just keep in mind that we said we're planning full iso for karmic
[18:50] <LaserJock> well, there are some apps I would drop to Universe if we did
[18:50] <highvoltage> LaserJock: but of course it won't hurt getting all the groundwork done ASAP
[18:50] <LaserJock> what did we say?
[18:51] <highvoltage> ehm... full iso for karmic?
[18:51] <highvoltage> (or at least not earlier...)
[18:52] <LaserJock> really?
[18:52] <LaserJock> I thought we were talking about karmic+1 maybe since it's LTS
[18:52] <nubae> I'm here now
[18:52] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ugh, I suck
[18:52] <nubae> I scrolled up and saw my name mentioned
[18:52] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I meant karmic+1
[18:52] <LaserJock> I still think we need to discuss the release strategy here
[18:52] <LaserJock> the consensus seems to be that we focus on LTS releases
[18:52] <LaserJock> which sounds good
[18:53] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure how that's going to work out in practice
[18:53] <highvoltage> LaserJock: yes, sorry I meant loopy not karmic
[18:53] <nubae> I thought I'd mention that its likely I start working for the Junta de Andalucia next month (Guadalinex) which is based on edubuntu and ubuntu and they want much closer ties to the edubuntu project
[18:53] <nubae> u guys have spoken to asanchez I take it
[18:53] <LaserJock> nubae: awesome news!
[18:53] <highvoltage> nubae: congrats!
[18:53] <nubae> yeah indeed, dream job... stupid pay, but dream job
[18:54] <nubae> so they say its the biggest edu linux deployment world wide
[18:54] <nubae> dont know how they are basing that, but sounds like one hell of a test pilot
[18:54] <highvoltage> LaserJock: so karmic = add-on disc, karmic+1 = full distro + addon disc (or some variation of this based on future discussion)
[18:54] <LaserJock> I'm not sure you can do both
[18:54] <highvoltage> nubae: test pilot?
[18:55] <LaserJock> nubae: Guadalinex has been a long time, but distant friend
[18:55] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I think add-on is important for people who want to support some apps from the edubuntu collection on something other than gnome
[18:55] <LaserJock> highvoltage: right, but I don't think we can get the hosting for both
[18:55] <nubae> well, right now, they are simply installing guadalinex directly on the machines
[18:55] <LaserJock> I think Edubuntu will get 1 image/.iso
[18:55] <highvoltage> LaserJock: asanches is actually hanging out here and wants to be a full edubuntu developer!
[18:55] <nubae> no distribution method, no ltsp
[18:55] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ok
[18:56] <highvoltage> LaserJock: well, it's possible to have a live CD repositories on it, the ubuntu live cd is like that currently
[18:56] <highvoltage> LaserJock: so perhaps it should just be a combined disc if possible?
[18:56] <LaserJock> highvoltage: I think we need to get some good AptOnCD instructions and have a good metapackage system for internet installs
[18:57] <LaserJock> well, we might be able to do some
[18:57] <LaserJock> but again, the problem is space
[18:57] <nubae> anyway I think I'll recommend to ditch guadalinex and localise edubuntu
[18:57] <highvoltage> LaserJock: hosting space?
[18:57] <nubae> so that work isnt done 10 times
[18:57] <LaserJock> highvoltage: we got bumped off of releases.ubuntu.com due to space
[18:57] <highvoltage> nubae: asanchez said that they'll use Edubuntu if we sort out the menu problems
[18:58] <LaserJock> highvoltage: we're gonna have to fight to get back on as it is, adding another GB or so will be very difficult
[18:58] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I feel strongly that it's totally, totally wrong for us to cripple ourselves in terms of features and what our users want because there's not space on a server
[18:58] <LaserJock> highvoltage: well, I know, but it *is* a limitation, it always has been in Ubuntu
[18:58] <nubae> highvoltage: +10
[18:59] <LaserJock> we can talk with Mark and slangasek to see what can be done
[18:59] <LaserJock> my impression was that Edubuntu was dropped because it wasn't being used much
[18:59] <highvoltage> LaserJock: don't we have the option of hosting it elsewhere or buying some disks for them?
[18:59] <nubae> LaserJock: that kind of thinking will take us back to the stone age... take a look at how opensuse-edu is succeding because of their multiple image systems
[18:59] <nubae> they have images for usb/dvd/cd/virtual machine appliances
[18:59] <nubae> and it just really helps
[18:59] <highvoltage> nubae: heh, don't get LaserJock started
[19:00] <LaserJock> nubae: I totally realize that
[19:00] <LaserJock> I'm just being practical and realistic here
[19:00] <LaserJock> Ubuntu's mirror system is *very* nice to have
[19:01] <LaserJock> if we have to make a few compromises I think it could be worth it
[19:01] <highvoltage> LaserJock: you're right
[19:01] <Svenstaro> Ubuntu's mirroring system isn't the end-of-all. There are many people who can and would provide free mirrors for us in case we host elsewhere.
[19:01] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I mean, canonical obviously has some restraints and it's not necessarilly their fault, and we need to work with them where we can to make things easier for everybody
[19:01] <LaserJock> well, it's not the end-of-all
[19:01] <nubae> Svenstaro: right, thats whats happened with sugar
[19:01] <nubae> grass roots mirrors
[19:01] <LaserJock> but Ubuntu does have mirrors in  just about *every* country
[19:01] <nubae> works like a charm
[19:02] <Svenstaro> we don't *need* mirrors in just about every country
[19:02] <nubae> look, what I see is that canonical should put SOME commitment to support edubuntu
[19:02] <LaserJock> they do
[19:02] <nubae> not enough
[19:02] <LaserJock> we just need to see how much we can get out of the pie
[19:03] <nubae> all the other distros have MUCH more support from their sponsors
[19:03] <LaserJock> when I mentioned to Mark that we got dropped he was pretty upset
[19:03] <highvoltage> in my strong opinion, edubuntu needs to be a DVD in order to be successful
[19:03] <Svenstaro> highvoltage, I fully agree.
[19:03] <LaserJock> I think we could talk with him and see if we can get something going
[19:03] <nubae> well, there was all this talk about how important education was and we all know what happened
[19:03] <LaserJock> *but* somebody needs to do it
[19:03] <highvoltage> I can't think of any other way how we'll be able to meet the needs of our users by sticking to a CD
[19:03] <LaserJock> let's not just ditch everything without trying
[19:03] <nubae> I don't wanna beat a dead horse, but...
[19:03] <highvoltage> nubae: please, please don't say opensuse
[19:04] <LaserJock> well, here's my point
[19:04] <nubae> hehe, I wasnt going to, but now that u mention it...
[19:04] <nubae> :-) :p
[19:04] <LaserJock> with the exception of highvoltage talking with colin
[19:04] <LaserJock> I've yet to see anybody here talk to Ubuntu/Canonical about it
[19:04] <highvoltage> it was stgraber who talked to cjwatson
[19:04] <LaserJock> so we have *no* idea what's possible
[19:04] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ok, so we need to open some communication channels
[19:04] <LaserJock> so please exhaust the existing resources before heading outside Ubuntu
[19:05] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, can't we just go ahead and assume that we ARE being hosted by Canonical and that they will continue?
[19:05] <LaserJock> because it really is preferable to use Ubuntu resources where possible
[19:05] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I feel confident that if we explain to them what we need and why that we'll get a good response
[19:05] <nubae> of course it is
[19:05] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: well, the only thing is that we're currently being hosted at ~ 300MB
[19:05] <nubae> right, it would be ludicrous for them to not take edubuntu seriously... but... they need to know that we still care
[19:05] <LaserJock> right
[19:06] <nubae> from the emails I've seen from other teams, it seems many think edubuntu is dead
[19:06] <nubae> and should be buried
[19:06] <nubae> that notion needs to dissapear
[19:06] <highvoltage> nubae: links please
[19:06] <LaserJock> I am confident that if Edubuntu turns around and we build a user base Canonical will be more than happy to host the .isos
[19:06] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, I can take over the hosting, it's a non-issue. I'm not a good mirror at just 1TB of traffic but others will do that. Also we have bittorrent.
[19:06] <LaserJock> they're frankly just not going to spend resources on a failed project
[19:06] <highvoltage> *nod*
[19:07] <highvoltage> and recently edubuntu *has* been a failed project
[19:07] <LaserJock> *but* somebody does need to ask the release team if it'd be OK for us to work towards getting a DVD
[19:07] <LaserJock> last time I talked with slangasek he said no
[19:07] <LaserJock> but I think with a good plan of what we're doing with it
[19:07] <LaserJock> that there might be more motivation
[19:08] <highvoltage> yes, let's just do it through official channels and as formally as possible this time, along with a proposal of what we want on the dvd and how much space it will consume (more or less, of course)
[19:08] <nubae> I see no point in making anything BUT a cd/usb image
[19:08] <nubae> the education packages require that
[19:08] <nubae> sorry... DVD, not cd
[19:08] <LaserJock> I totally agree
[19:08] <LaserJock> there's no doubt that we need to move towards DVD/usb images
[19:09] <highvoltage> if the response is that it absolutely can't happen, and we can't change their mind, then we can create a wiki page explaining why we can't do certain things along with that response
[19:09] <LaserJock> *or* just do internet-only
[19:09] <Svenstaro> highvoltage, why not just go ahead doing what we want on our own, if that happens?
[19:09] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I was surprised at UDS to discover that .za isn't the only country with heavy bandwidth issues, there were other people who also said that a dvd/usb disk would be beneficial because they have no bandwidth at the schools
[19:10] <LaserJock> yeah
[19:10] <sbalneav> Wondered why things were quiet
[19:10] <sbalneav> apparently I disconnected.
[19:10] <LaserJock> even in the US a DVD is nice to have
[19:10] <sbalneav> Afternoon all
[19:10] <highvoltage> Svenstaro: that's kind of what we're doing, but we want to do it properly, and we want to do it the ubuntu way and work with canonical to produce something supportable
[19:10] <highvoltage> Svenstaro: we're not currently limited to do much, really
[19:10] <LaserJock> ZaReason said that a DVD would be most helpful in them selling machines with pre-installed Edubuntu
[19:11] <highvoltage> afternoon sbalneav, welcome back
[19:11] <LaserJock> well, let's be clear here
[19:11] <nubae> have to go eat, biab
[19:11] <LaserJock> Canonical is *not* doing a lot of things
[19:11] <LaserJock> but Canonical still does a lot of stuff for Ubuntu as a whole
[19:12] <sbalneav> So, I had a look last night at ldapscripts
[19:12] <highvoltage> totally, Canonical does great work on and for Ubuntu, I don't have a slightest doubt about that
[19:12] <sbalneav> which does probably 85% of what we want.
[19:13] <highvoltage> sbalneav: have you been in touch with the ubuntu server team or followed the authentication server discussions that took place at UDS?
[19:13] <LaserJock> I don't know why Guadalinex isn't using edubuntu-menus
[19:13] <coz_> hey all
[19:13] <LaserJock> it's been around since like Edgy
[19:14] <highvoltage> sbalneav: there are plans for automating a lot of the ldappy stuff in karmic, but perhaps they can benefit from some of the stuff you work on?
[19:14] <coz_> have any issues popped up with edubuntu and compiz?
[19:14] <highvoltage> LaserJock: can the edubuntu-menus sort the applications by grade like they have it?
[19:14] <sbalneav> highvoltage: haven't seen a spec yet
[19:14] <LaserJock> highvoltage: it can do whatever you want
[19:14] <sbalneav> is there one?
[19:14] <highvoltage> coz_: edubuntu+compiz is exactly the same as ubuntu+compiz
[19:14] <LaserJock> coz_: specifically what?
[19:14] <highvoltage> sbalneav: I'm searching for it...
[19:15] <coz_> nothing in particular guys just wondering
[19:15] <LaserJock> I don't know of any particular issues
[19:15] <LaserJock> some apps work better than others with compositing
[19:16] <highvoltage> coz_: LTSP is doing work on getting compiz in LTSP working nicely, but that's about it in terms of compiz and edubuntu
[19:16] <coz_> highvoltage,  ok cool
[19:17] <coz_> no one has come into #compiz with edubuntu so I was just wondering if you guys had anyone withissues  no biggie :)
[19:17] <highvoltage> sbalneav: here's one, I'm sure there's more on it... looking... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkDirectoryUserLogin
[19:18] <highvoltage> sbalneav: ah here's the other one: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-karmic-directory-enabled-services
[19:23] <highvoltage> LaserJock: can I find documentation on edubuntu-menus anywhere?
[19:23] <LaserJock> no
[19:24] <LaserJock> the package itself is fairly simple and self-explanatory
[19:24] <highvoltage> ok
[19:24] <LaserJock> if we really want to make a push for it we'll want documentation of course
[19:24] <LaserJock> but right now it's basically proof-of-concept
[19:24] <LaserJock> however
[19:24] <highvoltage> ok, I just want to investigate whether it would be useful for guadalinex
[19:25] <LaserJock> Ubuntu Studio did use it for the basis of their menus
[19:25] <LaserJock> of course it would be :-)
[19:25] <highvoltage> currently they modify 43 packages to change the .desktop files to get to what they want
[19:25] <LaserJock> the guadalinex case is the *exact* reason I built it
[19:25] <LaserJock> yeah, that's really nuts
[19:25] <highvoltage> ok cool
[19:25] <LaserJock> I have no idea why they did that
[19:25] <LaserJock> :-)
[19:25] <highvoltage> well I'll try to figure out how it works and will ping you if I get stuck, I'll put together a guide that they can test out
[19:25] <LaserJock> basically they're modifying the menu at the .desktop file level, at the menu items themselves
[19:26] <highvoltage> LaserJock: they said that they'd use plain edubuntu if we can get that right
[19:26] <LaserJock> what i did was to modify the way in which the menu gets built in the first place
[19:26] <highvoltage> LaserJock: that's a *big* win imho
[19:26] <LaserJock> huge!
[19:26] <highvoltage> LaserJock: if canonical still wants to shun us after that they can go... erm (pm)
[19:27] <sbalneav> highvoltage: I've subscribed to both of them, but I have a sinking feeling that, like a lot of previous attempts to "get the ldap situation in ubuntu fixed", they're too ambitious, and won't be met.
[19:27] <LaserJock> I don't think Canonical shuns us
[19:28] <LaserJock> they're just not putting resources into projects that aren't working
[19:28] <LaserJock> they've made some mistakes in the past, no doubt
[19:28] <LaserJock> but I believe Mark wants Edubuntu to succeed very much
[19:29] <highvoltage> sbalneav: indeed. I do find it encouraging though that there is renewed energy on the issue, and if you have breakthroughs then it would be cool if you shared it on the spec/wiki, imho
[19:29] <sbalneav> Sure.
[19:30] <sbalneav> One of the big things that would help, is fixing up ldap scripts
[19:30] <sbalneav> sorry, ldapscripts
[19:30] <sbalneav> it needs 3 things to be useful to us, and should be easy to patch.
[19:31] <sbalneav> 1) adherance to the "users primary group is same as userid" standard method of doing groups in Linux
[19:32] <sbalneav> 2) default addition of support for shadow password support (i.e. expiry, passwd aging, disabling, etc.)
[19:32] <highvoltage> LaserJock: at the risk of sounding like a broken record, they really should make a plan for server space for us if there's a problem there currently. it's not like disk space is expensive, it's not like we're asking to host some weird bebibuntu derivative or something
[19:32] <LaserJock> highvoltage: right, but we need to request it
[19:32] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, I had a peek at all the info you gave me, and it seems the only thing I would have to do is write a 'seed', a package selection and pass it onto the ubuntu release folks?
[19:32] <sbalneav> 3) a tie in to the systems-tools-backends package.
[19:32] <highvoltage> sbalneav: how about adding that to the wiki page/spec?
[19:32] <LaserJock> highvoltage: we got dropped I believe at the last minute because of UNR
[19:33] <LaserJock> highvoltage: but Mark told me that he was surprised about it and that we should get our space back
[19:33] <LaserJock> highvoltage: we just need to make our case and *communicate* with them
[19:33] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ok, we're going over things we've been through before, let's move on
[19:33] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: we already have seeds
[19:33] <highvoltage> LaserJock: what channel should we follow? should we take this up with the TB?
[19:34] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: so it would basically just be a matter of modifying or adding a new seed
[19:34] <pygi> highvoltage: bleh
[19:34] <pygi> why is the meeting at that time :(
[19:34] <LaserJock> but there are some bits that do need to be changed so that the current addon disk can be made into a DVD
[19:34] <LaserJock> highvoltage: I would maybe start with cjwatson/slangasek and see
[19:34] <Svenstaro> LaserJock, I wasn't able to find the existing seeds. Where would they be?
[19:35] <highvoltage> LaserJock: ok
[19:36] <highvoltage> pygi: we asked in the channel and that suited people in the euro and american timezones well
[19:36] <pygi> highvoltage: :(
[19:36] <pygi> I am traveling to my hometown
[19:36] <LaserJock> Svenstaro: the seeds for karmic are at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/edubuntu.karmic
[19:36] <highvoltage> LaserJock: how do you want to approach it, should we start a conversation with them on IRC? or e-mail for records?
[19:37] <LaserJock> IRC would be fine for initial conversations
[19:37] <LaserJock> to see what needs to be done
[19:37] <highvoltage> pygi: we wanted to give enough notice since it will be an EC meeting, but we can schedule an EC meeting again for later this month
[19:37] <LaserJock> we just don't know
[19:37] <LaserJock> it could be trivial
[19:38] <highvoltage> pygi: we'll have other edubuntu meetings at least weekly
[19:38] <pygi> highvoltage: translate EC?
[19:38] <pygi> council?
[19:38] <highvoltage> pygi: si
[19:38] <pygi> oh well, you have fun then, I have nothing to do here :p
[19:38] <alkisg> sbalneav: woah! http://system-tools-backends.freedesktop.org/dbus-spec.html => are these specs actually implemented?
[19:40] <highvoltage> sbalneav: btw, it's not that I'm not interested, I just think your input would be really useful to the server team who wants to implement these things
[19:46] <sbalneav> alkisg: argh
[19:47] <sbalneav> yeah, and THEY don't have anything in there for shadow support either.
[19:47] <sbalneav> criminy
[19:47] <sbalneav> I had to add shadow support to pam-ldap, I've had to add it to ltsp :)
[19:47] <sbalneav> Seems like my whole life is spent getting people to support a standard that's been around for yonks and yonks.
[19:48] <alkisg> They do have a field named "User Encrypted Password"
[19:48] <sbalneav> password last changed
[19:48] <alkisg> And I like the network interfaces dbus interface
[19:48] <sbalneav> min password age
[19:48] <sbalneav> max password age
[19:48] <sbalneav> etc.
[19:49] <sbalneav> If you can't expire passwords, you will never, EVER be considered even remotely applicable for most corporate, school, or government institutions.
[19:49] <sbalneav> Most government/corporate places want password aging every 90 days
[19:50] <sbalneav> schools want accounts to auto-expire at the end of the term
[19:50] <sbalneav> etc.
[19:50] <alkisg> Yes, what you're saying is reasonable... I wonder why they didn't put support for that in the spec.
[19:52] <sbalneav> Because everyone forgets it.
[19:52] <LaserJock> highvoltage: well, that's about what I figured
[19:54] <LaserJock> it sucks losing the Ubuntu mirrors
[19:54] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I'm ok with the answer we have from him, just having it on cdimage is better than nothing, we'll just manually have to arrange some mirrors, if we can get 2 per continent that would already be ok, but let's not get ahead of ourselves
[19:54] <LaserJock> yeah
[19:54] <LaserJock> we could put out a call
[19:54] <LaserJock> and lean on bittorrent a lot
[19:54] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I think the old edubuntu versions and gobuntu can really be removed, but I won't go into that with slangasek now
[19:55] <sbalneav> Ah, looks as if upstream for systems-tools-backend has support for it.
[19:56] <LaserJock> highvoltage: can you take care of the TB agenda item?
[19:56] <highvoltage> LaserJock: just added it
[19:56] <highvoltage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[19:56] <LaserJock> ok awesome
[19:56] <LaserJock> that's progress!
[19:56] <highvoltage> well, my connection is slow so it might still be posting :)
[19:57] <highvoltage> LaserJock: egh, we missed a TB meeting today
[19:57] <LaserJock> yeah
[19:57] <highvoltage> we'll just have to catch the next one
[19:58] <LaserJock> we're not in a huge rush
[20:00] <highvoltage> I'm anxious for us to make progress though
[20:00] <highvoltage> people are keeping an eye on the project wondering whether it will flourish of flounder
[20:01] <highvoltage> I'd like to show real, steady and constant progress
[20:01] <highvoltage> but I agree, we don't have to rush it
[20:11] <bencrisford> stgraber: I have 50 minutes until the meeting right?
[20:13] <pygi> highvoltage: patience my friend, patience is the virtue
[20:14] <highvoltage> pygi: that's the best thing I ever heard you say
[20:14] <pygi> highvoltage: I am not sure if I should feel insulted or honored :p
[20:16] <highvoltage> pygi: hehe
[20:16] <pygi> highvoltage: I'll post the video of you singing now!
[20:17] <highvoltage> pygi: you're bluffing!
[20:17] <pygi> wanna bet? :D
[20:17] <highvoltage> no, I'll just stay quiet then.
[20:17]  * highvoltage looks through the CoC to see if there's anything about blackmail
[20:19] <pygi> highvoltage: ha! :)
[20:19] <pygi> I think I revoked my CoC signature, not sure xD
[20:20]  * bencrisford looks through the CoC to see if there is anything about bribing people for membership testimonials
[20:20] <pygi> bencrisford: there is
[20:20]  * bencrisford grins :D
[20:20] <bencrisford> oh :(
[20:20] <pygi> can I give you one advice?
[20:20]  * bencrisford revokes signiture, bribes, then signs again :D
[20:21] <bencrisford> pygi: Can you give me one advice?  Sorry, I don't understand..?
[20:21] <pygi> I think I decided after two years of contribution to go for membership
[20:21] <bencrisford> oh ?
[20:21] <pygi> the reason is that I had all the doors open without even being a member
[20:21] <pygi> in that time I also got some of the packages uploaded in main
[20:21] <bencrisford> well technically i have
[20:21] <bencrisford> as documentation is in main]
[20:22] <bencrisford> :), but i guess that dont count
[20:22] <pygi> people will listen if you have something to say, even if you're member
[20:22] <pygi> not*
[20:22] <highvoltage> pygi +1
[20:22] <pygi> guadelinux folks are great example, I think highvoltage and stgraber will agree that we've learned a lot from them
[20:23] <highvoltage> they are good people
[20:23] <pygi> highvoltage: ^_^
[20:23] <pygi> better then you for sure :p
[20:23]  * pygi hides from highvoltage's rage
[20:25]  * bencrisford disagrees!
[20:25]  * bencrisford is a proud subsriber of highvoltage's blog
[20:25]  * bencrisford warns pygi not to cross him
[20:25] <bencrisford> or there will be consequences...
[20:25] <pygi> bencrisford: nah, he's great actually, I just love to joke him around :p
[20:25] <bencrisford> :P hehe
[20:26] <bencrisford> if you guys were on the membership board, would you say yes or no to me? :/
[20:29] <pygi> bencrisford: highvoltage is on the membership board(edubuntu one) but I'd say no
[20:29] <pygi> I want you to become a member as well as you, but I don't want you to become a member just for the sake of being a member
[20:29] <bencrisford> this is ubuntu membership pygi, not edubuntu
[20:30] <pygi> oh :P still, the same answer :)
[20:30] <bencrisford> and i resent that im being a member for the sake of it, thats far from the truth :P
[20:30] <LaserJock> bencrisford: how many testimonials do you have?
[20:30]  * bencrisford mutters...  "two.."
[20:31] <bencrisford> but i haven't told many people i work with on ubuntu about my membership application
[20:32] <bencrisford> maybe i shoulda done, but i didnt wanna make people feel they had to give me testimonials because im so beautifal and lovely :) :P
[20:33] <LaserJock> I don't know, I think it'd be close for me
[20:33] <bencrisford> :S
[20:33] <LaserJock> but I have no idea how the member boards have been doing things for the last year or so
[20:33] <LaserJock> bencrisford: you'll certainly get there, it's just a matter of when the time is right
[20:34] <bencrisford> but in ubuntu, you kind of need it in order to start development according to the wiki...
[20:34] <bencrisford> people just dont get taken seriously without the status
[20:34] <bencrisford> the system sucks IMO
[20:34] <bencrisford> i would be happier if it werent there at all
[20:35] <Svenstaro> huh, you need recommendations to be a edubuntu member?
[20:35]  * Svenstaro overhears something after reconnecting
[20:35] <pygi> Svenstaro: yes :p
[20:35] <Svenstaro> Now that's very open and welcoming for people who want to help out.
[20:36] <pygi> heh
[20:36] <pygi> I already told you
[20:36] <pygi> you don't have to be a member to contribute
[20:36] <bencrisford> im not becoming an edubuntu member Svenstaro, lol id have no chance of getting that :P
[20:36] <bencrisford> im up for ubuntu membership
[20:36] <Svenstaro> Like there was no shortage of contributors or anything :D
[20:37] <highvoltage> bencrisford: how long have you been contributing to ubuntu?
[20:37] <Svenstaro> pygi, that's like, yeah sure we'll take your stuff. What, you want privileges in return? Screw you! Worthless contributor!
[20:37] <pygi> Svenstaro: its not like that
[20:37] <bencrisford> dunno, a while :P, but I spend most of my time nowadays on ubuntu stuff highvoltage, looking at the criteria - i, personally think I deserve it.  but it doesnt matter what i think :P
[20:38] <highvoltage> bencrisford: 6 months? more than a year?
[20:38] <LaserJock> bencrisford: there is *absolutely* no requirement for you to be a Member to contribute to development
[20:38] <LaserJock> Ubuntu Membership is a recognition of effort, not a status symbol
[20:39] <pygi> Svenstaro: being a member is just a recognition of your contribution
[20:39] <pygi> yes
[20:39] <pygi> LaserJock: ++
[20:39] <bencrisford> LaserJock: Not to contribute, but to start joining teams, and incrementing your development roles...  universe-contributors allows people with ubuntu membership or ready for it, its a requirement
[20:40] <highvoltage> members also get IRC cloaks, @ubuntu.com e-mail addresses, get to post onto the ubuntu planet, in short, they become reprasentatives of ubuntu and you can't hand that out like sweeties
[20:40] <LaserJock> bencrisford: I don't think it is a requirement
[20:40] <highvoltage> you need to know that someone can be trusted and that they are in it for the long hauls
[20:40] <bencrisford> you need to be ready for it at least LaserJock
[20:40] <LaserJock> bencrisford: Ubuntu Membership is require for MOTU
[20:40] <bencrisford> and contributors
[20:40] <LaserJock> no
[20:40] <bencrisford> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers#ContribDev
[20:40] <LaserJock> Contributors is how you can get Membership
[20:40] <LaserJock> like what we do with Edubuntu
[20:41] <bencrisford> the universe contributors is an official team
[20:41] <LaserJock> yes
[20:41] <bencrisford> its half way from prospective to motu
[20:41] <bencrisford> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers#ContribDev
[20:41] <LaserJock> I helped create it, I'm aware of what it is
[20:41] <bencrisford> oh, well even if you didnt, i know you'd know more than me :), but it does say there
[20:42] <LaserJock> when you become a Contributing Developer you *get* Membership
[20:42] <bencrisford> i know
[20:42] <LaserJock> but it's not a pre-condition
[20:42] <bencrisford> well you need to be ready for it
[20:42] <LaserJock> and in fact Contributing Developer is not required for anything
[20:43] <LaserJock> the point is, with the exception of some advanced teams, Ubuntu Membership is not required to join teams
[20:43] <bencrisford> well, i guess, but my point is that ubuntu membership is like a qualification for the ubuntu community
[20:43] <LaserJock> and it is flat out not required to contribute
[20:43] <pygi> ...
[20:44] <highvoltage> bencrisford: I just looked at your wiki page, it's very nice all the things you've been getting involved with
[20:44] <LaserJock> like take dchen
[20:44] <pygi> bencrisford: haven't I told you that I didn't *WANT* to become a member for two years?
[20:44] <bencrisford> pygi: I don't care if i don't get membership
[20:44] <highvoltage> bencrisford: but it seems that it's all very recent things, you might have trouble proving the sustainability part yet
[20:44] <bencrisford> it would just be a nice recognition
[20:44] <pygi> highvoltage: it used to be two months sustained contribution
[20:45] <bencrisford> highvoltage: I'm definately here to stay, and ive had more than two months...
[20:45] <highvoltage> pygi: yeah there was a loco session at the UDS where they discussed that there was a perception that membership was given too easily and that it should be fixed
[20:46] <LaserJock> agreed
[20:46] <highvoltage> bencrisford: I'm not putting you down, just giving some advice. I'm definitely not going to stop you from going for membership
[20:46] <LaserJock> for sure
[20:46] <bencrisford> im not gonna be all that bothered if i don't get membership, you're saying i want it too bad, i dont want it that much at all, it would just be a nice recognition of the nights ive been up in the early hours of the morning triaging bugs :P:P:P
[20:46] <pygi> highvoltage: I agree
[20:47] <highvoltage> bencrisford: I'm convinced that if you don't get it the first time round, you'll certainly get it in the future if you keep at it
[20:47] <pygi> bencrisford: I've been up not sleeping for three years now :)
[20:47] <pygi> (And joking everyone around me :p)
[20:47] <bencrisford> pygi: Haha :P :)
[20:47] <highvoltage> talking of which, I really need to get some sleep myself
[20:47] <highvoltage> g'night edub
[20:47] <bencrisford> night ;)
[20:47] <pygi> night highvoltage
[20:47] <highvoltage> *edubuntu (see the stuff I try to autocomplete when I'm sleepy)
[20:48] <pygi> highvoltage: cheers dude
[20:48] <sbalneav> Night highvoltage
[20:59] <sbalneav> All the server stuff depends on getting Kerberos set up.  Not an insurmountable problem, but puts a LOT more work for the small-time sysadmin to try to learn krb5 concepts.
[21:01] <LaserJock> can that be overcome at all with education/documentation?
[21:01] <bencrisford> Well, wish me luck with the membership meeting ;).  But i'm sixth, so you never know i might not even get fitted in today!
[21:02] <LaserJock> bencrisford: good luck!
[21:02] <bencrisford> ty :)
[21:02] <bencrisford> but i can only stay an hour
[21:02] <bencrisford> and im sixth :/
[21:39] <bencrisford> In case anyone's interested.  I went to the membership meeting, got straight +0s.  So it coulda been worse :).  Nevermind, :/.
[21:45] <bencrisford> haha!  45 minutes after my membership meeting, my phone reminder for it goes off
[21:45] <bencrisford> typical :P:P:P
[21:46] <sbalneav> straight +0's?
[21:47] <bencrisford> yep
[21:47] <bencrisford> they werent -1s
[21:47] <bencrisford> so its not that bad
[21:48] <bencrisford> sbalneav: they just needed more evidence of sustained contribution
[21:48] <bencrisford> and right now i have a wide spread of contributions all over the place, they would like a more sustained contribution in one or two areas
[21:49] <sbalneav> Takes a while.  I've been contributing to Free Software for 15 years :)
[21:50] <bencrisford> yeah, and nice :)
[21:52] <pygi> sbalneav: and you still didnt implement burning over iscsi :P
[21:53] <sbalneav> pygi: not a priority for me :)
[21:53] <sbalneav> I scratch my own itches :)
[21:54] <pygi> how rude :p
[21:54] <sbalneav> No, just practial :)
[21:54] <sbalneav> Practical
[21:54] <sbalneav> maybe by retirement, I'll learn how to type
[22:11] <sbalneav> Well, I think I'll put in some more work on Sabayon tonight.
[22:11] <sbalneav> After a week, I've received no feedback on any of my packages.
[22:14] <bencrisford> Night everyone, pygi ;), sbalneav ;), stgraber ;)
[22:17] <sbalneav> Good night.
[22:30] <sbalneav> Off home for the day.  On later tonight.
[22:30] <asanchez> Hi all