[07:11] <pitti> Good morning
[07:12] <pitti> didrocks: hey! happy to be back home? :-)
[07:12] <pitti> dobey: no :)
[09:02] <Zdra> dobey: yes empathy have sound support
[09:02] <Zdra> dobey: but ubuntu's sound theme is missing almost everything
[09:03] <Zdra> afaik on jaunty the only sound we have is incoming-call
[09:03] <Zdra> which is the most important IMO
[09:03] <seb128> I'm not a big fan of sound effects
[09:03] <Zdra> me neither
[09:04] <Zdra> seb128: about MSN file transfer, I don't think we can say pidgin support that
[09:04] <Zdra> seb128: I never had more than 4b/s
[09:04] <seb128> no, it's very very slow
[09:04] <Zdra> which is totally useless
[09:04] <seb128> some of the other points are good ones
[09:04] <seb128> ie sending message to people not there
[09:05] <seb128> or custom emoticons
[09:05] <Zdra> yep
[09:06] <Zdra> seb128: IMO it's much much much more important to have xmpp audio/video
[09:07] <seb128> is that working?
[09:07] <Zdra> seb128: also, it depends if ubuntu want to promote good support for open protocols (jabber) or closed (msn)
[09:07] <Laney> I bet there's a lot of people who use even the broken msn file xfer we have in Pidgin
[09:07] <Zdra> seb128: yes it is working
[09:07] <seb128> cassidy said it was not working fine right now and that it will not working out of the box anyway because it requires codecs which can't be installed by default
[09:08] <Zdra> seb128: did he said that? we support speex and theora
[09:08] <Zdra> they are installed by default on ubuntu
[09:08] <Zdra> it should even work from live CD
[09:08] <Zdra> afaik
[09:09] <Zdra> seb128: in fact we can use any codec supported by gstreamenr
[09:09] <seb128> "<cassidy>	seb128: also note that for google video (interop with the web client), we need H264 (thanks Google...) which can't be shipped by default"
[09:10] <Zdra> seb128: ah, that's for google's client
[09:10] <Zdra> seb128: I meant for empathy<>empazthy
[09:10] <seb128> ah right, that works using theora
[09:11] <Zdra> seb128: yep, google's web plugin for video is a problem, there is not much we can do
[09:11] <Zdra> seb128: basically it's up to canonical to go to google's office and shout people until they add support for open codecs
[09:12] <Zdra> seb128: but installing ubuntu-restricted-extra should be enough to get it working now
[09:12] <seb128> right
[09:12] <seb128> brb
[09:15] <seb128> Zdra: anyway having ubuntu to ubuntu video working will already be nice
[09:16] <seb128> and we want to promote free protocols but not in detriment of what users need
[09:16] <seb128> ie if other protocols are totally rubish compared to pidgin we will probably roll back before karmic
[09:17] <Zdra> the problem with other protocols is nobody actually work on them
[09:17] <seb128> but we will get user feedback anyway before deciding so we know where we stand and what is still required if we are not ready to switch
[09:17] <Zdra> we have some work done on MSN level, but not that much afaik
[09:18] <Zdra> non free protocols have lots of user, but not a single developer, that's the problem
[09:19] <seb128> well apparently pidgin has people working on it
[09:19] <seb128> you don't get the feature for free by using libpidgin ?
[09:27] <Zdra> seb128: for protocols, yes
[09:27] <Zdra> libpurple
[09:27] <seb128> so things like sending message to people who are not there or custom emoticons should be working?
[09:27] <Zdra> for MSN there is a dilemma because we have a dedicated CM for it
[09:28] <seb128> dedicated cm but nobody working on it you said?
[09:28] <Zdra> istaz_: is working on it sometimes
[09:28] <Zdra> seb128: and someone is working on audio/video support
[09:28] <seb128> ok, we might want to test msn using the cm and using libpurple
[09:29] <seb128> to see which one is working better
[09:30] <Zdra> seb128: we made the choice in empathy to not show pidgin based msn if butterfly (the dedicated CM) is installed. But maybe we should reevaluate that
[09:30] <seb128> I will test both and let you know how they are working there
[09:31] <istaz_> Zdra: I think the guys of the papyon project have started to work on it
[09:37] <chrisccoulson> hi pitti - i got some positive feedback on my fix for bug 361205, although the package is only in my PPA at the moment. do you want me to prepare a debdiff for jaunty-proposed later today? (I see a lot of other stuff got uploaded this morning)
[09:38] <pitti> chrisccoulson: proposed> I saw that, good job! Please prepare an upload and attach it, then I'll sponsor it
[09:38] <chrisccoulson> thanks:)
[12:45] <diverse_izzue> hi all. are there plans to replace scim by ibus for karmic or karmic+1?
[12:57] <asac> ArneGoetje: ^^
[13:32]  * asac lunch time
[15:33] <pitti> seb128: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-karmic-gnome-3 whiteboard still has the discussion notes, and it seems they have much more information than the final wiki spec
[15:33] <pitti> seb128: is that intended? can the whiteboard be flushed now?
[15:34] <SiDi> Hey pitti . You're the person who coded the new notifications in gnome-power-manager for notify-osd, right ?
[15:34] <pitti> SiDi: no, that was davidbarth
[15:34] <SiDi> aw
[15:35] <pitti> which reminds me that they are broken in Karmic
[15:35] <SiDi> I saw your name in the changelogs :)
[15:35] <SiDi> Yeh, well, i wrote a quick spec for notify-osd integration in Xubuntu, and there is a note about the power manager
[15:35] <SiDi> What id like to get is : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Karmic/NotifyOsd?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=notify-osd-powerinfo-example.png
[15:36] <SiDi> I think i can do it for xfce4-power-manager but we're likely to stay on gnome-power-manager. But i really cant write code on this one with so many changes being done to it
[15:38] <pitti> SiDi: yes, I sponsored the changes
[15:42] <SiDi> Do you think it's possible to remove half the text and replace the bulb icon with a battery icon indicating the percentage left, in order to make the notification bubble easier to read ?
[15:43] <pitti> SiDi: please discuss this with MacSlow or davidbarth
[15:43] <SiDi> pitti, okey, willdo, thanks
[15:43] <SiDi> shall i mail ubuntu-desktop, maybe ?
[15:45] <pitti> SiDi: ayatana is probably better for design questions
[15:46] <SiDi> Alright
[15:54] <davidbarth> SiDi: hi, how can i help?
[15:54] <SiDi> Hello davidbarth
[15:54] <SiDi> Well, it's about notifications for battery state
[15:54] <SiDi> I think they're a bit overloaded and could be optimised a little
[15:54] <artir> meeting is in 6 minutes?
[15:55] <SiDi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Karmic/NotifyOsd?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=notify-osd-power-current.png & https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Karmic/NotifyOsd?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=notify-osd-powerinfo-example.png
[15:55] <davidbarth> SiDi: ok, i see (slowly reading the log)
[15:55] <SiDi> shall give you an idea of what i want
[15:59] <davidbarth> SiDi: the mockup is interesting; the only thing we'd like to avoid is to display useless notifications; ie the user should only see them when it makes sense
[15:59] <SiDi> davidbarth, thats for the XF86Power triggered notifications
[15:59] <SiDi> It's just a little cleanup to make it easier to read, actually
[16:00] <davidbarth> SiDi: ok, makes sense then, as they are the direct result of a user action
[16:00] <SiDi> Sec, gonna upload a video with what i have in mind ;)
[16:00] <davidbarth> SiDi: that's a good suggestion; would you like to comment on that in the Ayatana list
[16:00] <SiDi> Sure
[16:00] <davidbarth> SiDi: see https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
[16:00] <SiDi> Im on it already
[16:01] <SiDi> Im Steve Dodier (got a pending mail to send about user activity monitoring too ^^)
[16:01] <davidbarth> SiDi: cool, be sure to get mpt's attention too, as he lead most of the design/usability aspects of these changes
[16:01] <SiDi> Alright
[16:02] <SiDi> as for the icons, i spoke with kwwii and mat_t and they seem ok to get them included, already
[16:12] <seb128> re
[16:12] <seb128> pitti: not sure how the whiteboard should be used, should it have the session notes or discussions?
[16:12] <pitti> seb128: it should ideally only have status metadata
[16:12] <pitti> seb128: I left the discussion there for now
[16:13] <seb128> pitti: I didn't feel that having a summary of the softwares, what they are doing etc was having a sense in the spec
[16:13] <pitti> but if there's anythign important which is not covered by the wiki page,it should move into "BoF discussion" section of the wiki page IMHO
[16:13] <pitti> unreleavant stuff can be removed, of course
[16:13] <pitti> seb128: agreed
[16:14] <seb128> I've reviewed the notes and didn't add notes on purpose there is nothing really interesting there
[16:14] <seb128> I will clean the whiteboard and checking it's all correct
[16:14] <seb128> -ing
[16:14] <pitti> seb128: cool, thanks
[16:15] <seb128> you're welcome
[16:15] <seb128> session restart brb
[16:20] <seb128> ok works correctly
[16:20]  * seb128 does upgrade some components to karmic
[16:21] <seb128> pitti: you mean the file in /etc? /usr/share is not under the admin's control
[16:21] <seb128> they are the same file
[16:22] <pitti> ah, that mess, I remember
[16:22] <pitti> seb128: can we fix the code to read /etc, clean up an unchanged /etc/ file in the postinst, and drop the symlink in /usr ?
[16:22] <pitti> s/postinst/preinst/ of course
[16:23] <seb128> pitti: and for wine, file-roller taking over the mimetype and hijacking the action was one of the things the wine guys complained about in jaunty
[16:23] <pitti> I guess so
[16:23] <pitti> executables should be handled by binfmt-misc
[16:24] <seb128> right now zip-exe are opened in file-roller
[16:24] <seb128> I though that was normal mimetype association
[16:24] <seb128> but I don't know the details, will pick an easier example
[16:24] <seb128> we can probably do upgrade magic and cleaning for the defaults.list yes
[16:25] <pitti> thanks
[16:25] <seb128> np, thank you for the quick review!
[16:25] <seb128> I'm still not clear about design and implementation difference too
[16:25] <seb128> but I guess I will never understand those
[16:25] <pitti> don't worry too much about those
[16:26] <pitti> it's "what" vs. "how"
[16:26] <pitti> but sometimes that's too small a difference
[16:26] <seb128> how, ie "start gedit, code, profit"? ;-)
[16:26] <pitti> Design:
[16:27] <pitti>  * Move keyboard handling from hal to udev
[16:27] <pitti> Implementation:
[16:27] <pitti>  * Build hal with --disable-keymaps
[16:27] <pitti>  * create a migration script to convert hal fdi files to udev rules
[16:27] <pitti>  * ship new rules in udev-extras
[16:27] <asac> killall
[16:27] <pitti>  * install udev-extras by default as part of ubuntu-standard
[16:28] <pitti> seb128: that would be an example, as I understand and use it
[16:28] <seb128> I would tend to write the design as a spec summary
[16:28] <pitti> asac: ... humans?
[16:28] <seb128> and use the implementation list for design
[16:28] <seb128> but gotcha, thanks ;-)
[16:28] <asac> ;)
[16:28] <pitti> * asac is now known as Bender
[16:28] <asac> pitti: killall sshd ;)
[16:29] <asac> is meeting now or in 1h ?
[16:29] <pitti> asac: in one week and 1 h
[16:30] <seb128> asac: you should start reading emails ;-)
[16:31] <asac> err. i read all emails afaik
[16:31] <asac> guess it was send before allhands?
[16:31] <artir> in the fridge it says that the meeting is today right now
[16:32] <pitti> asac: check for a procmail rule * ^From: Rick Spencer\n/dev/null
[16:32] <asac> lol
[16:32] <pitti> asac: was sent yesterday or so
[16:32] <asac> no. i am really sure rick goes in my inbox
[16:35] <seb128> asac: subject is "	team meeting and specs"
[16:36] <asac> yeah ... did he send with @canonical.com?
[16:37] <seb128> yes
[16:37] <seb128> asac: it has been sent to your canonical email
[16:37] <seb128> and coming from rick's canonical email
[16:38] <asac> ok thanks. will check on that
[16:38] <seb128> asac: I can bounce you the mail if you want
[16:40] <asac> seb128: yeah please do. i see it in my procmail log as being pushed into inbox ... but its not there :)
[16:40] <asac> maybe i hit delete when processing this morning
[16:42] <seb128> asac: sent to your ubuntu email
[16:42] <seb128> ups canonical rather
[16:47] <asac> thanks. got it
[17:03] <asac> off getting some food stocks ... bbl
[17:44] <pitti> 'nuff sponsoring for today, I'm off for the evening
[17:44] <pitti> I might come back later, but need to run out for some errands
[17:44]  * pitti waves
[17:46] <seb128> pitti: see you later!
[18:22] <asac> seb128: which ppa was the bluetooth-gnome thing in? u remember?
[18:32] <asac> pitti: when you get back, could you approve https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-karmic-firefox-3.5 for karmic?
[18:32] <asac> (not that it matters as i am about to start drafting)
[18:34] <SiDi> * rdepends migration (to xulrunner 1.9.1 + webkit)
[18:34] <SiDi> webkit ?
[18:38] <asac> SiDi: yes. the more we can move to webkit the less we have a need to do backporting for xulrunner
[18:39] <SiDi> well, that means webkit will be present in ubuntu's default image ?
[18:58] <slomo> seb128: you probably want to sync libgdata from debian/unstable for totem 2.27 (once it's from NEW)
[19:07] <dobey> totem uses google apps?
[19:07] <crevette> for youtube video plugin
[19:09] <seb128> crevette: where did you put your bluetooth updates? in a ppa? which one?
[19:09] <crevette> hey seb128
[19:09] <seb128> slomo: ok thanks, has libgdata been approved for GNOME now?
[19:10] <crevette> seb128: nome-bluetooth?
[19:10] <seb128> yes
[19:11] <slomo> seb128: no idea, it's an optional dependency of youtube anyway
[19:11] <seb128> ok
[19:11] <crevette> seb128: the bug is https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-bluetooth/+bug/372395
[19:11] <crevette> and there is a build in my ppa yes
[19:12] <slomo> seb128: i mean, an optional dependency for totem, required to build the youtube plugin ;) so you really want this in ubuntu... sjoerd already complained to me that i uploaded totem 2.27 without the youtube plugin ;)
[19:12] <seb128> right
[19:12] <seb128> yet another depends
[19:12] <seb128> *shrug*, GNOME starts being really bloated
[19:12] <slomo> well, before it used python-gdata
[19:12] <slomo> you can demote that to universe maybe ;)
[19:12] <Tm_T> seb128: starts being?
[19:13] <slomo> but all those mini libraries are really annoying
[19:13] <seb128> Tm_T: go troll somewhere else will you?
[19:13] <seb128> Tm_T: that's not the right channel for that
[19:13] <Tm_T> hmh, and again I did wrong wording
[19:14] <Tm_T> what I mean is, it's hard to draw a line when something is bloat, so I was asking what is the thing you find now going over the line
[19:14] <seb128> there is no obvious over the line
[19:15] <seb128> but every second day they add a new library nowadays
[19:15] <seb128> where some other people are trying to reduce the number of libs
[19:15] <crevette> seb128: by the way for gnome-bluetooth I tested the workflow with pulseaudio 0.9.15 and this is rallt working fine for me, I was able to connect and play music on my bluetooth audio gateway in few click
[19:15] <seb128> so the issue is not the number but the direction
[19:16] <seb128> asac: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-bluetooth/+bug/372395 <- that?
[19:16] <Tm_T> seb128: roger roger, I often have to explain how DE:s are not bloated when compared to WM:s
[19:17] <slomo> seb128: into which other library would you put libgdata btw? ;)
[19:17] <Laney> seb128: I'm looking at it now that I got reminded
[19:17] <Laney> fell off the radar
[19:17] <Laney> crevette: sorry
[19:17] <seb128> slomo: it used to be in e-d-s
[19:17] <crevette> Laney: hey not problem, I know you all have lots of things to do
[19:18] <slomo> seb128: yes, good that it is outside eds now... eds brings in a too large dependency chain for your average google api using application ;)
[19:18] <Laney> feel free to ping me if I forget again :O
[19:18] <seb128> slomo: will the binary was splitted in e-d-s obviously, ie no extra depends
[19:18] <seb128> will -> well
[19:18] <seb128> just longer build to rebuild this one
[19:18] <seb128> but I'm not sure have 15 sources instead of e-d-s will make anything easier
[19:19] <slomo> seb128: well, you could use libgdata on windows but i doubt you'll be able to build eds on windows ;) but i don't think there's anything to argue about here, all those mini libraries only make things more complicated in general ;)
[19:20] <seb128> right
[19:22] <slomo> seb128: do you know what's blocking totem 2.27 in ubuntu?
[19:22] <seb128> uds
[19:22] <seb128> ie just came back this weekend and yesterday was an holiday
[19:22] <seb128> I will have a look tomorrow
[19:22] <asac> checking
[19:22] <slomo> ok :)
[19:28] <Laney> crevette: You should try to make your changelogs more verbose: where - what - why
[19:30] <Laney> also did you package from scratch? I'm seeing a lot of changes from 0.11.0-0ubuntu4 that aren't in the changelog that I can see
[19:46] <crevette> Laney: 0.11 gnome-bluettoth was a different project
[19:46] <crevette> it used to be only a obex server
[19:46] <crevette> now this feature is provide by gnome-user-sahre
[19:47] <Laney> crevette: you still should have mentioned all the changes imo
[19:48] <Laney> but it's not a blocker
[19:50] <Laney> crevette: Dude you need to update the copyright file
[19:51] <Laney> that is a blocker for me I'm afraid
[19:52] <crevette> ah yeah I remember I didn't know what to do
[19:52] <crevette> should I drop it and replace by a new one
[19:52] <Laney> as long as you keep the copyright of the old debian packager
[19:52] <Laney> unless you completely rewrote it
[19:53] <Laney> it just need to be accurate and up to date
[19:53] <Laney> following dep5 is probably a good idea
[19:53] <Laney> ping me when it's done and I'll have another look
[19:54] <crevette> dep5 ?
[19:55] <Laney> http://dep.debian.net/deps/dep5/
[19:58] <crevette> Laney: the copyright references gnome-bluetooth tools & gnome-bluetooth library, but there is no tools (I don't know what it meant) and I'm not sure gnome-bluetooth provide a library. should I meantion it applied to previous version until 0.11
[20:00] <Laney> crevette: delete it and start again if that's easier
[20:00] <crevette> nothing remains from gnome-bluetooth, but as I took bluez-gnome as reference I should perhaps reference this
[20:00] <Laney> it pretty much just needs to list all files, their license and copyright holders
[20:00] <Laney> reference any packagers who worked on this stuff before you
[20:01] <Laney> in the copyright for debian/*
[20:09] <seb128> slomo: working on gtk 2.17 now?
[20:10] <seb128> slomo: some reason is http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gtk+/commit/?id=663bf3db0efde02f96e34bc08846356be3240f7f, see  bug http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=578765
[20:11] <crevette> Laney: thanks for the review, sorry to waste your time :/
[20:12] <Laney> it's not a waste, this is what the process is for
[20:12] <crevette> I could have been more efficient
[20:12] <crevette> let's focus on this
[20:25] <slomo> seb128: no 2.16.2, but thanks :)
[20:25] <seb128> slomo: ok, 2.17 has the same issue
[20:26] <huats> seb128: hello !
[20:26] <huats> How are you ?
[20:27] <seb128> hey huats!
[20:27] <huats> safe trip back ?
[20:27] <seb128> huats: got a cold but otherwise good, you?
[20:27] <huats> good too :)
[20:27] <seb128> yes, trip was just fine, I was home for lunch on saturday
[20:27] <huats> great :)
[20:27] <huats> I haven't found you at the karaoke :(
[20:29] <seb128> I was not there
[20:29] <seb128> how was it?
[20:29] <huats> I know !
[20:29] <huats> that is what I meant !
[20:30] <huats> it was nice
[20:30] <huats> I don't even had the chance to say you good bye :(
[20:30] <seb128> how do you know, I could have been there but in the middle of all those people not easy to find for example!
[20:30] <huats> haven't you seen some pics/videos ?
[20:30] <seb128> no, I didn't do too much computer during the weekend
[20:31] <huats> hehe
[20:31] <seb128> and I've been busy catching up on email, etc today
[20:31] <huats> I can imagine :)
[20:31] <seb128> so I didn't look for photos online
[20:31] <seb128> we will see each other at next uds probably so that's ok ;-)
[20:31] <huats> I have made a video just for you, of robert singing ;)
[20:32] <seb128> heh ;-)
[20:32] <huats> (since I knew you weren't there I wanted to you can see your padawan :P)
[20:32] <seb128> lol
[20:32] <huats> I haven't post it yet
[20:32] <huats> I'll let you know once I have
[20:32] <seb128> I had diner with people having ubuntuflu and not wanting to go for party, that was perhaps a mistake since I got a cold now
[20:32] <seb128> ok, cool
[20:33] <huats> héhé
[20:33] <huats> no big deal :)
[20:34] <seb128> btw did you start working on some update?
[20:35] <seb128> I was not sure and did some so sorry if I hijacked yours or something
[20:35] <huats> oh ok
[20:35] <huats> I have started a bit on evince
[20:35] <huats> but not a lot
[20:35] <huats> did you ?
[20:36] <seb128> ok, I did this one
[20:36] <huats> ok
[20:36] <seb128> I looked for opened bugs first but there was none
[20:36] <seb128> we will use bugs for todolists soon I expect
[20:36] <Laney> is there a list?
[20:36] <huats> so just get me another one ?
[20:36] <huats> seb128: ok great
[20:36] <seb128> huats: bug-buddy
[20:36] <huats> ok
[20:36] <seb128> you can merge on debian and update to 2.27
[20:37] <huats> ok
[20:37] <huats> I'll do that
[20:37] <seb128> Laney: no right now and I think we are mostly updatetoday right now
[20:37] <seb128> huats: cool
[20:37] <Laney> k
[20:37] <seb128> Laney: there is quite some merges and sponsoring to do though
[20:37] <Laney> yeah i looked at the queue
[20:38] <Laney> i'll take some when i can
[20:39] <crevette> Laney: about the changelog do you want I strip all uptream changes ?
[20:39] <Laney> no I like having those there
[20:39] <Laney> I think you should explain *your* changes better
[20:39] <crevette> okay
[20:39] <Laney> I used interdiff -z -p1 old_version_of_gnome_bluetooth.diff.gz your_version.diff.gz to get the diff to review btw
[20:39] <Laney> so that's what I'll look at
[20:40] <Laney> you should make everything in there as easy to understand as possible ;)
[20:40] <huats> seb128: actually didrocks already did the merge I think :)
[20:40] <Laney> sponsors queue!
[20:40] <Laney> its pretty epic right now
[20:42] <crevette> :)
[21:34] <SiDi> hey YokoZar
[21:34] <YokoZar> hey SiDi
[21:34] <SiDi> They didnt record your plenary talk but for sure someone recorded you at karaoke :]
[21:35] <SiDi> I have the feeling i went back home too early :(
[21:36] <YokoZar> SiDi: I heard the plenary talks are on a hard disk on a plane at the moment
[21:36] <YokoZar> SiDi: the day that Jorge forgot to hit the record button was either Wednesday or Thursday I think
[21:36] <SiDi> ahah :D nice
[21:37] <SiDi> btw kudos on daring singing alone @ karaoke :D
[21:37] <YokoZar> I did it 3 times ;)
[21:38] <SiDi> I didnt sing at all :P
[21:38] <SiDi> That'll be for the next UDS
[21:47]  * mgunes is about to take the liberty to add a "hundredpapercuts" task for bug #382626
[21:52] <seb128> mgunes: you can probably do that or ping the dxteam about it
[21:53] <seb128> mgunes: btw short bug descriptions are usually appreciated, verbose one might seem nice but are extra work to read and understand for no real win
[21:53] <seb128> ie you could describe this bug in one line rather than one screen
[21:54] <mgunes> seb128, I've done the latter earlier in the day, but there's been no response; the reason I'm going ahead with it this time is that everyone was in agreement at the session.
[21:54] <seb128> I would let those guys bother about those bugs, there is enough bugs to work on already
[21:56] <seb128> lool: do you still need this gnome-keyring arm workaround? (ie building with -O0 to avoid a lock issue)
[21:56] <seb128> that seems to be the only ubuntu diff we still have in karmic
[21:58] <mgunes> seb128, point taken, and I normally try to be concise, but I do think the verbosity is justified here.
[21:58] <seb128> well then do a short description and then an user story if you think it adds a value
[21:58] <seb128> but that could be only me
[21:59] <seb128> I get so many bugs that I tend to skip those have over 6 lines of text
[21:59] <seb128> have -> having
[22:00] <seb128> ie "the notepad icon doesn't represent the action in a clear way" is enough
[22:00] <seb128> I don't think upstream picked this one because they think it's good anyway
[22:01] <seb128> there is probably no good icon for this action, the bug is not really useful without a suggestion of what we should be using instead
[22:01] <mgunes> seb128, I was fully aware that this was known, and would not take any real triage effort, hence the verbosity.
[22:02] <seb128> alright
[22:02] <dobey> yeah, the gtk+ edit icon is pretty pointless
[22:02] <dobey> and "edit" is a bit too abstract to really have any useful metaphor
[22:02] <seb128> I was just saying that you don't need to bother writing a good user story
[22:02] <seb128> usually it makes the submitter spend quite some time on the bug and not benefit the triagers
[22:02] <seb128> but you decide how you spent your efforts ;-)
[22:03] <dobey> i really don't see why we have a button to toggle between editable ui and list of buttons anyway
[22:03] <dobey> it should just always be editable
[22:04] <mgunes> seb128, I don't know if you actually read past the first two sentences, but I would argue that it's somewhat beyond "user story" and closer to "technical substantiation by citation" :)
[22:04] <seb128> because a text entry is confusing to users
[22:04] <dobey> toggling between buttons and a text entry is horrible
[22:04] <seb128> ie they don't know what to enter
[22:04] <seb128> so they want buttons
[22:04] <dobey> i didn't say it should be a GtkEntry always :)
[22:04] <seb128> and powerusers want somewhere they can type the path directly
[22:04] <dobey> well, seth wanted buttons
[22:05] <dobey> because osx had buttons
[22:05] <dobey> and then hackers wanted an entry so they could type stuff
[22:05] <dobey> and now we have the crappy toggle thing
[22:05] <mgunes> it looks to me like a typical case of bypassing a real design decision by providing an "option to switch between things"
[22:05] <seb128> mgunes: no I didn't, see my comment about over 6 lines of description ;-)
[22:05] <mgunes> seb128, I knew that ;)
[22:06] <dobey> mgunes: yes, there was no real design behind it
[22:06] <seb128> in any case the design team is welcome to suggest a better icon or way
[22:07] <seb128> knowing that we want something easy to use for standard users and a way to enter a path directly
[22:07] <mgunes> seb128: I kind of did, but it took, like, two paragraphs :)
[22:07] <dobey> i'm all for having a better gtk-edit icon (because it's used elsewhere as well), and a better way to use the path in the file chooser
[22:09] <dobey> "There's no such thing as a standard user, and if there were, it wouldn't be you."
[22:09] <dobey> :)
[22:10] <seb128> mgunes: right, I read the full bug description now
[22:11] <crevette> Laney: ah, In the meantime, debian had a gnome-bluetooth package so I think we can now just sync it from there
[22:11] <mgunes> seb128, thanks :) See, a toggle button looks essentially out of place, which is where the problem only begins.
[22:11] <seb128> mgunes: usually I tend to describe the bug in the description and then add a comment to suggest changes but everyone has its own workflow I guess ;-)
[22:11] <Laney> crevette: wow thats recent
[22:11] <mgunes> seb128, right, probably a better way.
[22:11] <crevette> yeah
[22:12] <Laney> crevette: you could help maintain it in that team :)
[22:12] <seb128> mgunes: the issue is that making clear icons for those actions is not trivial
[22:12] <Laney> i'm sure some of your packaging could be of use to them
[22:12] <crevette> sure, now I reviewed all patches
[22:12] <crevette> Laney: we have an additional patch for notification that I jus ported
[22:12] <Laney> cool
[22:13] <crevette> and too bad, I find the package after writing a more verbose changelog :/
[22:13] <crevette> Laney: is it acceptable to sync the package and then divert it by adding our patch?
[22:13] <mgunes> seb128, I know, but the ambiguity of the icon is not the only problem. Even with a better icon, the "pressed vs. non-pressed" state of a lonely toggle button is not a good way to convey mode information and lead people to switch modes in this case.
[22:13] <Laney> crevette: that's called a merge
[22:14] <seb128> mgunes: right
[22:14] <mgunes> hence the point the HIG makes about it.
[22:14] <crevette> hmm time to sleep now
[22:15] <crevette> I still have a bug to submit to debian
[22:15] <crevette> good night and thanks so much for help