[07:11] Good morning [07:12] didrocks: hey! happy to be back home? :-) [07:12] dobey: no :) === asac_ is now known as asac [09:02] dobey: yes empathy have sound support [09:02] dobey: but ubuntu's sound theme is missing almost everything [09:03] afaik on jaunty the only sound we have is incoming-call [09:03] which is the most important IMO [09:03] I'm not a big fan of sound effects [09:03] me neither [09:04] seb128: about MSN file transfer, I don't think we can say pidgin support that [09:04] seb128: I never had more than 4b/s [09:04] no, it's very very slow [09:04] which is totally useless [09:04] some of the other points are good ones [09:04] ie sending message to people not there [09:05] or custom emoticons [09:05] yep [09:06] seb128: IMO it's much much much more important to have xmpp audio/video [09:07] is that working? [09:07] seb128: also, it depends if ubuntu want to promote good support for open protocols (jabber) or closed (msn) [09:07] I bet there's a lot of people who use even the broken msn file xfer we have in Pidgin [09:07] seb128: yes it is working [09:07] cassidy said it was not working fine right now and that it will not working out of the box anyway because it requires codecs which can't be installed by default [09:08] seb128: did he said that? we support speex and theora [09:08] they are installed by default on ubuntu [09:08] it should even work from live CD [09:08] afaik [09:09] seb128: in fact we can use any codec supported by gstreamenr [09:09] " seb128: also note that for google video (interop with the web client), we need H264 (thanks Google...) which can't be shipped by default" [09:10] seb128: ah, that's for google's client [09:10] seb128: I meant for empathy<>empazthy [09:10] ah right, that works using theora [09:11] seb128: yep, google's web plugin for video is a problem, there is not much we can do [09:11] seb128: basically it's up to canonical to go to google's office and shout people until they add support for open codecs [09:12] seb128: but installing ubuntu-restricted-extra should be enough to get it working now [09:12] right [09:12] brb [09:15] Zdra: anyway having ubuntu to ubuntu video working will already be nice [09:16] and we want to promote free protocols but not in detriment of what users need [09:16] ie if other protocols are totally rubish compared to pidgin we will probably roll back before karmic [09:17] the problem with other protocols is nobody actually work on them [09:17] but we will get user feedback anyway before deciding so we know where we stand and what is still required if we are not ready to switch [09:17] we have some work done on MSN level, but not that much afaik [09:18] non free protocols have lots of user, but not a single developer, that's the problem [09:19] well apparently pidgin has people working on it [09:19] you don't get the feature for free by using libpidgin ? [09:27] seb128: for protocols, yes [09:27] libpurple [09:27] so things like sending message to people who are not there or custom emoticons should be working? [09:27] for MSN there is a dilemma because we have a dedicated CM for it [09:28] dedicated cm but nobody working on it you said? [09:28] istaz_: is working on it sometimes [09:28] seb128: and someone is working on audio/video support [09:28] ok, we might want to test msn using the cm and using libpurple [09:29] to see which one is working better [09:30] seb128: we made the choice in empathy to not show pidgin based msn if butterfly (the dedicated CM) is installed. But maybe we should reevaluate that [09:30] I will test both and let you know how they are working there [09:31] Zdra: I think the guys of the papyon project have started to work on it [09:37] hi pitti - i got some positive feedback on my fix for bug 361205, although the package is only in my PPA at the moment. do you want me to prepare a debdiff for jaunty-proposed later today? (I see a lot of other stuff got uploaded this morning) [09:37] Launchpad bug 361205 in tracker "Tracker uses notifications with actions when the index is corrupt" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/361205 [09:38] chrisccoulson: proposed> I saw that, good job! Please prepare an upload and attach it, then I'll sponsor it [09:38] thanks:) === agateau_ is now known as agateau [12:45] hi all. are there plans to replace scim by ibus for karmic or karmic+1? [12:57] ArneGoetje: ^^ [13:32] * asac lunch time === sconklin-gone is now known as sconklin [15:33] seb128: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-karmic-gnome-3 whiteboard still has the discussion notes, and it seems they have much more information than the final wiki spec [15:33] seb128: is that intended? can the whiteboard be flushed now? [15:34] Hey pitti . You're the person who coded the new notifications in gnome-power-manager for notify-osd, right ? [15:34] SiDi: no, that was davidbarth [15:34] aw [15:35] which reminds me that they are broken in Karmic [15:35] I saw your name in the changelogs :) [15:35] Yeh, well, i wrote a quick spec for notify-osd integration in Xubuntu, and there is a note about the power manager [15:35] What id like to get is : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Karmic/NotifyOsd?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=notify-osd-powerinfo-example.png [15:36] I think i can do it for xfce4-power-manager but we're likely to stay on gnome-power-manager. But i really cant write code on this one with so many changes being done to it [15:38] SiDi: yes, I sponsored the changes [15:42] Do you think it's possible to remove half the text and replace the bulb icon with a battery icon indicating the percentage left, in order to make the notification bubble easier to read ? [15:43] SiDi: please discuss this with MacSlow or davidbarth [15:43] pitti, okey, willdo, thanks [15:43] shall i mail ubuntu-desktop, maybe ? [15:45] SiDi: ayatana is probably better for design questions [15:46] Alright [15:54] SiDi: hi, how can i help? [15:54] Hello davidbarth [15:54] Well, it's about notifications for battery state === pochu_ is now known as pochu [15:54] I think they're a bit overloaded and could be optimised a little [15:54] meeting is in 6 minutes? [15:55] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Karmic/NotifyOsd?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=notify-osd-power-current.png & https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Karmic/NotifyOsd?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=notify-osd-powerinfo-example.png [15:55] SiDi: ok, i see (slowly reading the log) [15:55] shall give you an idea of what i want [15:59] SiDi: the mockup is interesting; the only thing we'd like to avoid is to display useless notifications; ie the user should only see them when it makes sense [15:59] davidbarth, thats for the XF86Power triggered notifications [15:59] It's just a little cleanup to make it easier to read, actually [16:00] SiDi: ok, makes sense then, as they are the direct result of a user action [16:00] Sec, gonna upload a video with what i have in mind ;) [16:00] SiDi: that's a good suggestion; would you like to comment on that in the Ayatana list [16:00] Sure [16:00] SiDi: see https://launchpad.net/~ayatana [16:00] Im on it already [16:01] Im Steve Dodier (got a pending mail to send about user activity monitoring too ^^) [16:01] SiDi: cool, be sure to get mpt's attention too, as he lead most of the design/usability aspects of these changes [16:01] Alright [16:02] as for the icons, i spoke with kwwii and mat_t and they seem ok to get them included, already [16:12] re [16:12] pitti: not sure how the whiteboard should be used, should it have the session notes or discussions? [16:12] seb128: it should ideally only have status metadata [16:12] seb128: I left the discussion there for now [16:13] pitti: I didn't feel that having a summary of the softwares, what they are doing etc was having a sense in the spec [16:13] but if there's anythign important which is not covered by the wiki page,it should move into "BoF discussion" section of the wiki page IMHO [16:13] unreleavant stuff can be removed, of course [16:13] seb128: agreed [16:14] I've reviewed the notes and didn't add notes on purpose there is nothing really interesting there [16:14] I will clean the whiteboard and checking it's all correct [16:14] -ing [16:14] seb128: cool, thanks [16:15] you're welcome [16:15] session restart brb [16:20] ok works correctly [16:20] * seb128 does upgrade some components to karmic [16:21] pitti: you mean the file in /etc? /usr/share is not under the admin's control [16:21] they are the same file [16:22] ah, that mess, I remember [16:22] seb128: can we fix the code to read /etc, clean up an unchanged /etc/ file in the postinst, and drop the symlink in /usr ? [16:22] s/postinst/preinst/ of course [16:23] pitti: and for wine, file-roller taking over the mimetype and hijacking the action was one of the things the wine guys complained about in jaunty [16:23] I guess so [16:23] executables should be handled by binfmt-misc [16:24] right now zip-exe are opened in file-roller [16:24] I though that was normal mimetype association [16:24] but I don't know the details, will pick an easier example [16:24] we can probably do upgrade magic and cleaning for the defaults.list yes [16:25] thanks [16:25] np, thank you for the quick review! [16:25] I'm still not clear about design and implementation difference too [16:25] but I guess I will never understand those [16:25] don't worry too much about those [16:26] it's "what" vs. "how" [16:26] but sometimes that's too small a difference [16:26] how, ie "start gedit, code, profit"? ;-) [16:26] Design: [16:27] * Move keyboard handling from hal to udev [16:27] Implementation: [16:27] * Build hal with --disable-keymaps [16:27] * create a migration script to convert hal fdi files to udev rules [16:27] * ship new rules in udev-extras [16:27] killall [16:27] * install udev-extras by default as part of ubuntu-standard [16:28] seb128: that would be an example, as I understand and use it [16:28] I would tend to write the design as a spec summary [16:28] asac: ... humans? [16:28] and use the implementation list for design [16:28] but gotcha, thanks ;-) [16:28] ;) [16:28] * asac is now known as Bender [16:28] pitti: killall sshd ;) [16:29] is meeting now or in 1h ? [16:29] asac: in one week and 1 h [16:30] asac: you should start reading emails ;-) [16:31] err. i read all emails afaik [16:31] guess it was send before allhands? [16:31] in the fridge it says that the meeting is today right now [16:32] asac: check for a procmail rule * ^From: Rick Spencer\n/dev/null [16:32] lol [16:32] asac: was sent yesterday or so [16:32] no. i am really sure rick goes in my inbox [16:35] asac: subject is " team meeting and specs" [16:36] yeah ... did he send with @canonical.com? [16:37] yes [16:37] asac: it has been sent to your canonical email [16:37] and coming from rick's canonical email [16:38] ok thanks. will check on that [16:38] asac: I can bounce you the mail if you want [16:40] seb128: yeah please do. i see it in my procmail log as being pushed into inbox ... but its not there :) [16:40] maybe i hit delete when processing this morning [16:42] asac: sent to your ubuntu email [16:42] ups canonical rather [16:47] thanks. got it [17:03] off getting some food stocks ... bbl [17:44] 'nuff sponsoring for today, I'm off for the evening [17:44] I might come back later, but need to run out for some errands [17:44] * pitti waves [17:46] pitti: see you later! === proppy1 is now known as proppy [18:22] seb128: which ppa was the bluetooth-gnome thing in? u remember? [18:32] pitti: when you get back, could you approve https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-karmic-firefox-3.5 for karmic? [18:32] (not that it matters as i am about to start drafting) [18:34] * rdepends migration (to xulrunner 1.9.1 + webkit) [18:34] webkit ? [18:38] SiDi: yes. the more we can move to webkit the less we have a need to do backporting for xulrunner [18:39] well, that means webkit will be present in ubuntu's default image ? [18:58] seb128: you probably want to sync libgdata from debian/unstable for totem 2.27 (once it's from NEW) [19:07] totem uses google apps? [19:07] for youtube video plugin [19:09] crevette: where did you put your bluetooth updates? in a ppa? which one? [19:09] hey seb128 [19:09] slomo: ok thanks, has libgdata been approved for GNOME now? [19:10] seb128: nome-bluetooth? [19:10] yes [19:11] seb128: no idea, it's an optional dependency of youtube anyway [19:11] ok [19:11] seb128: the bug is https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-bluetooth/+bug/372395 [19:11] Ubuntu bug 372395 in gnome-bluetooth "[karmic] Please sponsor gnome-bluetooth 2.27.5" [Wishlist,New] [19:11] and there is a build in my ppa yes [19:12] seb128: i mean, an optional dependency for totem, required to build the youtube plugin ;) so you really want this in ubuntu... sjoerd already complained to me that i uploaded totem 2.27 without the youtube plugin ;) [19:12] right [19:12] yet another depends [19:12] *shrug*, GNOME starts being really bloated [19:12] well, before it used python-gdata [19:12] you can demote that to universe maybe ;) [19:12] seb128: starts being? [19:13] but all those mini libraries are really annoying [19:13] Tm_T: go troll somewhere else will you? [19:13] Tm_T: that's not the right channel for that [19:13] hmh, and again I did wrong wording [19:14] what I mean is, it's hard to draw a line when something is bloat, so I was asking what is the thing you find now going over the line [19:14] there is no obvious over the line [19:15] but every second day they add a new library nowadays [19:15] where some other people are trying to reduce the number of libs [19:15] seb128: by the way for gnome-bluetooth I tested the workflow with pulseaudio 0.9.15 and this is rallt working fine for me, I was able to connect and play music on my bluetooth audio gateway in few click [19:15] so the issue is not the number but the direction [19:16] asac: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-bluetooth/+bug/372395 <- that? [19:16] Ubuntu bug 372395 in gnome-bluetooth "[karmic] Please sponsor gnome-bluetooth 2.27.5" [Wishlist,New] [19:16] seb128: roger roger, I often have to explain how DE:s are not bloated when compared to WM:s [19:17] seb128: into which other library would you put libgdata btw? ;) [19:17] seb128: I'm looking at it now that I got reminded [19:17] fell off the radar [19:17] crevette: sorry [19:17] slomo: it used to be in e-d-s [19:17] Laney: hey not problem, I know you all have lots of things to do [19:18] seb128: yes, good that it is outside eds now... eds brings in a too large dependency chain for your average google api using application ;) [19:18] feel free to ping me if I forget again :O [19:18] slomo: will the binary was splitted in e-d-s obviously, ie no extra depends [19:18] will -> well [19:18] just longer build to rebuild this one [19:18] but I'm not sure have 15 sources instead of e-d-s will make anything easier [19:19] seb128: well, you could use libgdata on windows but i doubt you'll be able to build eds on windows ;) but i don't think there's anything to argue about here, all those mini libraries only make things more complicated in general ;) [19:20] right [19:22] seb128: do you know what's blocking totem 2.27 in ubuntu? [19:22] uds [19:22] ie just came back this weekend and yesterday was an holiday [19:22] I will have a look tomorrow [19:22] checking [19:22] ok :) [19:28] crevette: You should try to make your changelogs more verbose: where - what - why [19:30] also did you package from scratch? I'm seeing a lot of changes from 0.11.0-0ubuntu4 that aren't in the changelog that I can see [19:46] Laney: 0.11 gnome-bluettoth was a different project [19:46] it used to be only a obex server [19:46] now this feature is provide by gnome-user-sahre [19:47] crevette: you still should have mentioned all the changes imo [19:48] but it's not a blocker [19:50] crevette: Dude you need to update the copyright file [19:51] that is a blocker for me I'm afraid [19:52] ah yeah I remember I didn't know what to do [19:52] should I drop it and replace by a new one [19:52] as long as you keep the copyright of the old debian packager [19:52] unless you completely rewrote it [19:53] it just need to be accurate and up to date [19:53] following dep5 is probably a good idea [19:53] ping me when it's done and I'll have another look [19:54] dep5 ? [19:55] http://dep.debian.net/deps/dep5/ [19:58] Laney: the copyright references gnome-bluetooth tools & gnome-bluetooth library, but there is no tools (I don't know what it meant) and I'm not sure gnome-bluetooth provide a library. should I meantion it applied to previous version until 0.11 [20:00] crevette: delete it and start again if that's easier [20:00] nothing remains from gnome-bluetooth, but as I took bluez-gnome as reference I should perhaps reference this [20:00] it pretty much just needs to list all files, their license and copyright holders [20:00] reference any packagers who worked on this stuff before you [20:01] in the copyright for debian/* [20:09] slomo: working on gtk 2.17 now? [20:10] slomo: some reason is http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gtk+/commit/?id=663bf3db0efde02f96e34bc08846356be3240f7f, see bug http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=578765 [20:10] Gnome bug 578765 in docs "no rule to make manpages" [Normal,Unconfirmed] [20:11] Laney: thanks for the review, sorry to waste your time :/ [20:12] it's not a waste, this is what the process is for [20:12] I could have been more efficient [20:12] let's focus on this [20:25] seb128: no 2.16.2, but thanks :) [20:25] slomo: ok, 2.17 has the same issue [20:26] seb128: hello ! [20:26] How are you ? [20:27] hey huats! [20:27] safe trip back ? [20:27] huats: got a cold but otherwise good, you? [20:27] good too :) [20:27] yes, trip was just fine, I was home for lunch on saturday [20:27] great :) [20:27] I haven't found you at the karaoke :( [20:29] I was not there [20:29] how was it? [20:29] I know ! [20:29] that is what I meant ! [20:30] it was nice [20:30] I don't even had the chance to say you good bye :( [20:30] how do you know, I could have been there but in the middle of all those people not easy to find for example! [20:30] haven't you seen some pics/videos ? [20:30] no, I didn't do too much computer during the weekend [20:31] hehe [20:31] and I've been busy catching up on email, etc today [20:31] I can imagine :) [20:31] so I didn't look for photos online [20:31] we will see each other at next uds probably so that's ok ;-) [20:31] I have made a video just for you, of robert singing ;) [20:32] heh ;-) [20:32] (since I knew you weren't there I wanted to you can see your padawan :P) [20:32] lol [20:32] I haven't post it yet [20:32] I'll let you know once I have [20:32] I had diner with people having ubuntuflu and not wanting to go for party, that was perhaps a mistake since I got a cold now [20:32] ok, cool [20:33] héhé [20:33] no big deal :) [20:34] btw did you start working on some update? [20:35] I was not sure and did some so sorry if I hijacked yours or something [20:35] oh ok [20:35] I have started a bit on evince [20:35] but not a lot [20:35] did you ? [20:36] ok, I did this one [20:36] ok [20:36] I looked for opened bugs first but there was none [20:36] we will use bugs for todolists soon I expect [20:36] is there a list? [20:36] so just get me another one ? [20:36] seb128: ok great [20:36] huats: bug-buddy [20:36] ok [20:36] you can merge on debian and update to 2.27 [20:37] ok [20:37] I'll do that [20:37] Laney: no right now and I think we are mostly updatetoday right now [20:37] huats: cool [20:37] k [20:37] Laney: there is quite some merges and sponsoring to do though [20:37] yeah i looked at the queue [20:38] i'll take some when i can [20:39] Laney: about the changelog do you want I strip all uptream changes ? [20:39] no I like having those there [20:39] I think you should explain *your* changes better [20:39] okay [20:39] I used interdiff -z -p1 old_version_of_gnome_bluetooth.diff.gz your_version.diff.gz to get the diff to review btw [20:39] so that's what I'll look at [20:40] you should make everything in there as easy to understand as possible ;) [20:40] seb128: actually didrocks already did the merge I think :) [20:40] sponsors queue! [20:40] its pretty epic right now [20:42] :) [21:34] hey YokoZar [21:34] hey SiDi [21:34] They didnt record your plenary talk but for sure someone recorded you at karaoke :] [21:35] I have the feeling i went back home too early :( [21:36] SiDi: I heard the plenary talks are on a hard disk on a plane at the moment [21:36] SiDi: the day that Jorge forgot to hit the record button was either Wednesday or Thursday I think [21:36] ahah :D nice [21:37] btw kudos on daring singing alone @ karaoke :D [21:37] I did it 3 times ;) [21:38] I didnt sing at all :P [21:38] That'll be for the next UDS [21:47] * mgunes is about to take the liberty to add a "hundredpapercuts" task for bug #382626 [21:47] Launchpad bug 382626 in nautilus "Nautilus location bar toggle icon implies unrelated function" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/382626 [21:52] mgunes: you can probably do that or ping the dxteam about it [21:53] mgunes: btw short bug descriptions are usually appreciated, verbose one might seem nice but are extra work to read and understand for no real win [21:53] ie you could describe this bug in one line rather than one screen [21:54] seb128, I've done the latter earlier in the day, but there's been no response; the reason I'm going ahead with it this time is that everyone was in agreement at the session. [21:54] I would let those guys bother about those bugs, there is enough bugs to work on already [21:56] lool: do you still need this gnome-keyring arm workaround? (ie building with -O0 to avoid a lock issue) [21:56] that seems to be the only ubuntu diff we still have in karmic [21:58] seb128, point taken, and I normally try to be concise, but I do think the verbosity is justified here. [21:58] well then do a short description and then an user story if you think it adds a value [21:58] but that could be only me [21:59] I get so many bugs that I tend to skip those have over 6 lines of text [21:59] have -> having [22:00] ie "the notepad icon doesn't represent the action in a clear way" is enough [22:00] I don't think upstream picked this one because they think it's good anyway [22:01] there is probably no good icon for this action, the bug is not really useful without a suggestion of what we should be using instead [22:01] seb128, I was fully aware that this was known, and would not take any real triage effort, hence the verbosity. [22:02] alright [22:02] yeah, the gtk+ edit icon is pretty pointless [22:02] and "edit" is a bit too abstract to really have any useful metaphor [22:02] I was just saying that you don't need to bother writing a good user story [22:02] usually it makes the submitter spend quite some time on the bug and not benefit the triagers [22:02] but you decide how you spent your efforts ;-) [22:03] i really don't see why we have a button to toggle between editable ui and list of buttons anyway [22:03] it should just always be editable [22:04] seb128, I don't know if you actually read past the first two sentences, but I would argue that it's somewhat beyond "user story" and closer to "technical substantiation by citation" :) [22:04] because a text entry is confusing to users [22:04] toggling between buttons and a text entry is horrible [22:04] ie they don't know what to enter [22:04] so they want buttons [22:04] i didn't say it should be a GtkEntry always :) [22:04] and powerusers want somewhere they can type the path directly [22:04] well, seth wanted buttons [22:05] because osx had buttons [22:05] and then hackers wanted an entry so they could type stuff [22:05] and now we have the crappy toggle thing [22:05] it looks to me like a typical case of bypassing a real design decision by providing an "option to switch between things" [22:05] mgunes: no I didn't, see my comment about over 6 lines of description ;-) [22:05] seb128, I knew that ;) [22:06] mgunes: yes, there was no real design behind it [22:06] in any case the design team is welcome to suggest a better icon or way [22:07] knowing that we want something easy to use for standard users and a way to enter a path directly [22:07] seb128: I kind of did, but it took, like, two paragraphs :) [22:07] i'm all for having a better gtk-edit icon (because it's used elsewhere as well), and a better way to use the path in the file chooser [22:09] "There's no such thing as a standard user, and if there were, it wouldn't be you." [22:09] :) [22:10] mgunes: right, I read the full bug description now [22:11] Laney: ah, In the meantime, debian had a gnome-bluetooth package so I think we can now just sync it from there [22:11] seb128, thanks :) See, a toggle button looks essentially out of place, which is where the problem only begins. [22:11] mgunes: usually I tend to describe the bug in the description and then add a comment to suggest changes but everyone has its own workflow I guess ;-) [22:11] crevette: wow thats recent [22:11] seb128, right, probably a better way. [22:11] yeah [22:12] crevette: you could help maintain it in that team :) [22:12] mgunes: the issue is that making clear icons for those actions is not trivial [22:12] i'm sure some of your packaging could be of use to them [22:12] sure, now I reviewed all patches [22:12] Laney: we have an additional patch for notification that I jus ported [22:12] cool [22:13] and too bad, I find the package after writing a more verbose changelog :/ [22:13] Laney: is it acceptable to sync the package and then divert it by adding our patch? [22:13] seb128, I know, but the ambiguity of the icon is not the only problem. Even with a better icon, the "pressed vs. non-pressed" state of a lonely toggle button is not a good way to convey mode information and lead people to switch modes in this case. [22:13] crevette: that's called a merge [22:14] mgunes: right [22:14] hence the point the HIG makes about it. [22:14] hmm time to sleep now [22:15] I still have a bug to submit to debian [22:15] good night and thanks so much for help === sconklin is now known as sconklin-afk === Mez_ is now known as Mez