[15:00] <mdz> Keybuk: hi
[15:01] <cody-somerville> :)
[15:01] <Keybuk> mdz: sorry, major technical failure
[15:01] <Keybuk> mouse just froze
[15:02] <mdz> Keybuk: will you be able to chair the meeting or do you need to hand it off?
[15:02] <Keybuk> I shall chair
[15:02] <Keybuk> I've just recovered it
[15:02] <Keybuk> hardware failure
[15:02] <mdz> ok
[15:02] <cjwatson> hello
[15:02] <Keybuk> cjwatson:
[15:02] <Keybuk> ah, there you are
[15:03] <Keybuk> #startmeeting
[15:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:03. The chair is Keybuk.
[15:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:03] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] # IRC Council ops privileges in #ubuntu-devel (Jussi Schultink)
[15:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  # IRC Council ops privileges in #ubuntu-devel (Jussi Schultink)
[15:03] <Keybuk> Jussi Schultink requested that the IRC Council operators be added to the Access Control List for #ubuntu-devel
[15:03] <Keybuk> which is currently the TB members
[15:03] <Keybuk> is Jussi here?
[15:04] <mdz> randa said that Jussi would be here
[15:04] <sabdfl> i'm +1 that the irc council governance should include #ubuntu-devel
[15:04] <randa> jussi01 ^^
[15:04] <jussi01> Oh, sorry, Im here
[15:04] <sabdfl> happy for TB to have additional privileges there, as we have in other channels that are mainly driven by a particular team
[15:05] <cjwatson> I have to say I tended to agree with Scott's e-mail response; #ubuntu-devel's governance has traditionally been separate and AFAICS this has actually been healthy
[15:05] <cjwatson> it wasn't clear to me what problem we were trying to solve
[15:05] <Keybuk> as should be clear from my mail, I'm -1
[15:05] <mdz> I am neutral on this so far; I don't have much experience with the IRC council, nor am I informed about the problem that needs solving here (if there is one)
[15:06] <mdz> Keybuk: I think your mail only went to t-b@, so perhaps you'd like to summarize here?
[15:06] <Keybuk> mdz:  my mail was deliberately private
[15:06] <jussi01> Yeah, was just going to comment I didnt see any additional mail
[15:06] <Keybuk> in summary: I do not trust the IRC Council, I think they create more problems, and I don't think we have a problem that needs solving
[15:07] <jono> Keybuk, have you shared your concerns with the IRC Council?
[15:07] <Keybuk> jono: yes, repeatedly
[15:07] <cjwatson> I don't see a problem with granting individuals additional access; the current list is certainly not just the technical board
[15:07] <Keybuk> my concerns include the fact that the IRC Council are currently ignoring a recommendation by the CC and SABDFL over their policing of channels
[15:08] <cody-somerville> Didn't the IRC Council use to have access to #ubuntu-devel but it got intentionally revoked due to a particular incident or something?
[15:08] <cjwatson> cody-somerville: not in my memory
[15:08] <Keybuk> cody-somerville: no, they have never had access
[15:08] <sabdfl> having the IRC council exercise their authority in #ubuntu-devel would give us a better sense of how they handle IRC elsewhere
[15:08] <Keybuk> #ubuntu-devel (obviously) predates its formation
[15:09] <cody-somerville> Or sorry, not the IRC Council but members from the IRC op team
[15:09] <sabdfl> i strongly dislike carving out "special" territory as a workaround to a lack of trust
[15:09] <cjwatson> I'm concerned that any time we do see policing from non-developers on #ubuntu-devel, it seems to simply make the situation worse
[15:09] <mdz> jussi01: when you originally raised this, you mentioned that there had been some problems which had come to the attention of -ops, which you couldn't respond to due to lack of privileges
[15:09] <jussi01> The original reason I borught the up was we had a few ops calls that were not dealt with, and I wanted to make sure they were being dealt with.
[15:09] <mdz> jussi01: can you tell us about those problems?
[15:09] <cjwatson> I feel that the people who moderate a channel ought to be participants in that channels
[15:09] <cjwatson> channel
[15:09] <jono> is it necessary to have further ops in #ubuntu-devel?
[15:10] <mdz> jono: if the ops = TB, then we are all in the same time zone most of the time, which is not ideal
[15:10] <cjwatson> my observation *has* been that our timezone coverage in #ubuntu-devel has not always been as good as it ought to be
[15:10] <sabdfl> cjwatson: is that different for #ubuntu-devel, or does it mean we should rethink the IRC council? (speaking with my CC hat on)
[15:10] <Keybuk> jono: I am not aware of any ops-level problem that was not solved by those we do have
[15:10] <cody-somerville> I'm in #ubuntu-devel every day almost 24/7. There is rarely an issue that doesn't get immediately resolved.
[15:11] <jussi01> mdz: I havent the issues right at hand atm, but they were not overly serious, mainly just a nuisance from memory.
[15:11] <Keybuk> jono: indeed, I can think of at least two incidents when ubuntu developers have been accused of being offtopic
[15:11] <jono> mdz, agreed, but I thought other people were ops too
[15:11]  * ogra thought that too
[15:11] <sabdfl> cody-somerville: nevertheless, in Ubuntu we have setup the IRC council to lead IRC infrastructure, and I think it's destructive to carve out areas from that leadership
[15:11] <Keybuk> jono: they are
[15:11] <cjwatson> sabdfl: #ubuntu-devel is maybe more ... concentrated? ... than some, but I do think it's a general issue
[15:11] <mdz> Keybuk: you said earlier that it was just TB members
[15:11] <cody-somerville> sabdfl, I'm not disagreeing. I just want to point out that #ubuntu-devel is generally well kept.
[15:12] <Keybuk> mdz: the ownership is TB members
[15:12] <Keybuk> the access list is a bunch of developers
[15:12] <Keybuk> including a couple of irc council people
[15:12] <mdz> Keybuk: oh, I see
[15:12] <cjwatson> I would be happy for the IRC council to have access if we had a commitment from the IRC council to not institute radically different channel policies from those that exist right now without developer consensus
[15:12] <Keybuk> -ChanServ- Entry Nickname/Host          Flags
[15:12] <Keybuk>  ----- ---------------------- -----
[15:12] <Keybuk>  1     *!*@freenode/staff/*   +votiA [modified ? ago]
[15:12] <Keybuk>  2     mneptok                +votriRA [modified 1 year, 0 weeks, 0 days, 19:04:08 ago]
[15:12] <Keybuk>  3     cjwatson               +votsriRfAF [modified 1 year, 0 weeks, 0 days, 19:05:26 ago]
[15:12] <Keybuk>  4     Mithrandir             +votsriRA [modified ? ago]
[15:12] <Keybuk>  5     infinity               +votsriRA [modified ? ago]
[15:12] <cjwatson> (which IMO ought to be general practice anyway, with s/developer/general channel population/)
[15:12] <Keybuk>  6     Hobbsee                +votriRA [modified 1 year, 0 weeks, 0 days, 19:03:56 ago]
[15:12] <Keybuk>  7     thom                   +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
[15:12] <Keybuk>  8     mdz                    +votsriRfAF [modified 1 year, 0 weeks, 0 days, 19:05:18 ago]
[15:12] <Keybuk>  9     lamont                 +votriRA [modified ? ago]
[15:12] <Keybuk>  10    Keybuk                 +votsriRfAF [modified ? ago]
[15:12] <Keybuk>  ----- ---------------------- -----#
[15:12] <jussi01> none of those are on the IRC council
[15:12] <sabdfl> thombot!
[15:12] <Keybuk> cjwatson: I have an objection to the IRC Council's current policies
[15:13] <jussi01> with the exception we have 2 freenode staff on the council
[15:13] <mdz> it sounds to me like #ubuntu-devel might not have a problem which needs solving at the moment
[15:13] <Keybuk> jussi01: mneptok used to be, no?
[15:13] <Pici> Keybuk: no
[15:13] <jussi01> Keybuk: no
[15:13] <jono> one solution would be to identify the key concerns from the CC with the IRC Council and then provide ops access to #ubuntu-devel when those concerns have been tended to
[15:13]  * sabdfl thinks to nominate keybuk to the IRC council
[15:13] <jono> heh
[15:13] <mdz> for reference, the IRC council is:
[15:13] <cody-somerville> Is the IRC Council looking to staff the op list in #ubuntu-devel or just add that special nick that is shared between members of the IRC Council?
[15:13] <mdz> [LINK] https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-council
[15:13] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-council
[15:14] <cjwatson> cody-somerville: the request was for the latter
[15:14] <mdz>  Benjamin Rubin
[15:14] <mdz> Joseph Price
[15:14] <mdz> Jussi Schultink
[15:14] <mdz> Marek Spruell
[15:14] <mdz> Melissa Draper
[15:14] <mdz> Nick Ali
[15:14] <cody-somerville> Are they looking for just op access or founder access? (ie. ownership of the channel)
[15:14] <mdz> cody-somerville: +votriRA
[15:14] <jussi01> cody-somerville: just op access
[15:15] <cody-somerville> Doesn't the IRC Council generally seek founder access for Ubuntu channels? Why not in this case?
[15:16] <cjwatson> I do tend to agree with sabdfl that it's bad to work around broken processes in one place in the project in another place, rather than fixing the process; I find the comment that the existing governance chain (i.e. a CC recommendation) is not working in this case to be disturbing, though, and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with "experimenting" on #ubuntu-devel
[15:16] <cjwatson> I'd like to have a reference for the recommendation that's currently unimplemented
[15:16] <jono> cjwatson, agreed
[15:16] <mdz> any matter of general concern with regard to the IRC council should go to the CC
[15:16] <mdz> and this discussion should be limited to the matter of #ubuntu-devel
[15:16] <cjwatson> indeed, but it is germane
[15:17] <mdz> consensus would appear to be that the situation in #ubuntu-devel is stable
[15:17] <mdz> I'm inclined to leave it alone if it is working fine, and thus to redirect to the CC
[15:18] <sabdfl> i don't think of it as experimentation - the IRC council are trusted in the project, just as the TB council are
[15:18] <jono> if the situation is stable right now, why don't we focus on fixing the IRC Council problems and then review the request again later?
[15:18] <jono> maybe in 2 months
[15:18] <sabdfl> it would be better to invite them into this house to see how they do, than to judge them prematurely
[15:18] <sabdfl> issues can be addressed if they arise, and that would be improving ubuntu as a whole
[15:19] <sabdfl> i think it's very bad form for one part of the project - especially the development team in a floss project - to carve out its own turf
[15:19] <cody-somerville> If the IRC Council is going to get ops in #ubuntu-devel, they should probably get ownership as well like they do normally.
[15:19] <sabdfl> jono: hard to work with an IRC council while we are saying they are not trusted. better to demonstrate faith, and hold those in charge accountable to a high standard
[15:20] <sabdfl> cody-somerville: what's the difference between ops and ownership?
[15:20] <cjwatson> what is our fallback option if the situation in #ubuntu-devel starts deteriorating noticeably?
[15:20] <sabdfl> cjwatson: replace the IRC council
[15:20] <nalioth> cody-somerville: the main goal is to have more ops available.  this is why we strongly suggest to all the *buntu* channels to add freenode staff to the ACL
[15:20] <jussi01> Which #ubuntu-devel has
[15:20] <cody-somerville> sabdfl, They can manage channel options and administravia and what not with the founder flag.
[15:20] <jono> sabdfl, I agree, but the impression I get is that there are enough concerns being raised to focus on fixing these issues before their mandate is expanded
[15:21] <Keybuk> we have two suggestions
[15:21] <cody-somerville> sabdfl, For example, for #xubuntu, the resolution was to give ubuntuirccounci1 +fF
[15:21] <nalioth> i'm not sure i'm on the same sheet of music as you guys, but what "issues" involving the ircc are we discussing?
[15:21] <Keybuk> 1. replace #ubuntu-devel ownership with the IRC Council now
[15:21] <cody-somerville> Keybuk, Multiple people can have ownership of a channel
[15:22] <Keybuk> 2. examine and resolve current issues with the IRC Council and review afterwards
[15:22] <cjwatson> sabdfl: if it were merely "we disagree", I'd be with you; I am specifically concerned by the comment that there are *already* CC recommendations being ignored, which if true means that the governance process is ineffective
[15:22] <Keybuk> cody-somerville: Mark's opinion seems to be strongly that IRC Council should have absolute rule, with no special cases
[15:22] <cjwatson> which is why I'd like to see a reference for that
[15:22] <sabdfl> Keybuk: don't put words in my mouth
[15:22] <cody-somerville> Keybuk, sabdfl: For #xubuntu, the irccouncil isn't the only person with founder access. I also have founder access.
[15:22] <sabdfl> having ops is not "absolute rule", it's permission to collaborate with the other people who have ops in that channel
[15:22] <Keybuk> sabdfl: sorry, I was merely trying to summarise your opinion?
[15:23] <sabdfl> we've established that most channels do, and should, have domain-specific owners / ops
[15:23] <sabdfl> and i think that's a good pattern
[15:23] <jono> another option is to provide access for the IRCC and then review their work there in a month?
[15:23] <sabdfl> i think the people driving a particular thread (kubuntu, xubuntu, tb, core dev, desktop team) should be able to put ops up
[15:23] <cjwatson> does op access include the ability (technically or socially) to establish on-join messages, change policies, etc.?
[15:23] <jono> that might be a more appropriate position to take
[15:23] <sabdfl> but i think the irc council should be able to manage a team of ops across the whole project too
[15:24] <nalioth> cjwatson: no
[15:24] <sabdfl> jono: +1
[15:24] <jussi01> sabdfl: the thing that Im trying to get across is that the IRC council should be on that access list, as a safety net, similar to the freenode staff on there.
[15:24] <sabdfl> i'd like to draw this ops work into a very visible space, and see how it goes
[15:24] <sabdfl> jussi01: agreed
[15:24] <persia> For most channels, IRC Council has shared ownership, but may not have ops, depending on the activity of the existing ops in the channel, and their ability to cover any outstanding issues.
[15:25] <jussi01> We dont want to come in and change the dynamic of a channel, nor change anything really, just have the ability to deal with a situation if it arises
[15:26] <cjwatson> what do the +r and +R modes do? those are differences between what freenode staff have and what's being asked for for the ircc
[15:26] <\sh> TBH..i never saw a situation inside #ubuntu-devel or #ubuntu-motu which was similar to other *ubuntu-* mass channels...i could be wrong...and other things freenode staff was very fast in reacting (regarding to irc spam)
[15:26] <nalioth> we get requests in #ubuntu-ops and #freenode that "trolls are in #ubuntu-whatever" and would like the ability to respond, is all this is about.  we're not wanting to get involved in the daily operation of any groups channel(s)
[15:26] <jono> can I recommend taking a temperature vote so the TB can move on to the other agenda items?
[15:27] <Keybuk> jono: we don't have a yes/no to vote on
[15:27] <Keybuk> except for the original question
[15:27] <Keybuk> would the TB members be happy to vote on that at this point?
[15:27] <sabdfl> i would suggest i'm +1 on giving ops to the irc council nick
[15:27] <sabdfl> erk
[15:27] <sabdfl> that was two different sentences
[15:28] <jono> oh I thought it was a vote on whether the TB approved operator access for the IRCC
[15:28] <Keybuk> [VOTE] give ops to the IRC Council nickname
[15:28] <MootBot> Please vote on:  give ops to the IRC Council nickname.
[15:28] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:28] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:28] <sabdfl> I'm definitely +1 on giving ops to the irc council nick
[15:28] <sabdfl> +1
[15:28] <MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:28] <Keybuk> -1
[15:28] <MootBot> -1 received from Keybuk. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[15:28] <mdz> +0
[15:28] <MootBot> Abstention received from mdz. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[15:28] <cjwatson> +0 - I'm still uncomfortable with the governance claims that have been made but will not oppose if we can review in a month
[15:28] <MootBot> Abstention received from cjwatson. 1 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
[15:29] <Keybuk> how do you end a vote? :p
[15:29] <cjwatson> #endvote
[15:29] <sabdfl> we should review in a month and escalate to CC if we feel the permissions are not being well handled
[15:29] <Keybuk> #endvote
[15:29] <jono> sabdfl, agreed
[15:29] <dholbach> [endvote] I think
[15:29] <mdz> Keybuk: [ENDVOTE] I think
[15:29] <Keybuk> [ENDVOTE]
[15:29] <MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 1 against. 2 abstained. Total: 0
[15:29] <cjwatson> huh, it used to be #endvote
[15:29] <sabdfl> how do I tell mootbot about a casting vote? ;-)
[15:29] <mdz> cjwatson: yes, it changed
[15:29] <Keybuk> [VOTE] review the IRC ops situation in a month
[15:29] <MootBot> Please vote on:  review the IRC ops situation in a month.
[15:29] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:29] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:29] <sabdfl> +1
[15:29] <MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:29] <cjwatson> +1
[15:29] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:30] <Keybuk> +1
[15:30] <MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:30] <mdz> +0
[15:30] <MootBot> Abstention received from mdz. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:30] <Keybuk> [ENDVOTE]
[15:30] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 3
[15:30] <Keybuk> ok, carried
[15:30] <sabdfl> to be clear, that was "grant ops now, review in a month"?
[15:30] <Keybuk> [AGREED] we shall review the situation with the IRC Council in one month's time and take it up with the CC if we are not happy
[15:30] <MootBot> AGREED received:  we shall review the situation with the IRC Council in one month's time and take it up with the CC if we are not happy
[15:30] <mdz> sabdfl: I think Keybuk was attempting to emulate a  multiple choice vote
[15:30] <Keybuk> sabdfl: not that I could tell, there was no vote for granting ops now
[15:31]  * Keybuk wonders how you do un-AGREED with mootbot
[15:31] <sabdfl> frankly, wearing my CC hat, i think it's inappropriate for a group to carve itself out
[15:31] <persia> Keybuk, no such feature, unfortunately.
[15:32] <Keybuk> sabdfl: you are privy to the concerns I raised with the CC over the IRC Council
[15:32] <Keybuk> and you, as well as other CC members, recommended a course of action that the IRC Council has thus far refused to follow
[15:32] <Keybuk> so you can probably see why I'm against this ;)
[15:33] <sabdfl> i do see that
[15:33] <cjwatson> in the case of #ubuntu-devel I think it's more un-grandfathering that carving itself out, but sure, I'd prefer uniformity if we can get there
[15:33] <sabdfl> but i think this just makes the problem worse
[15:33] <cjwatson> s/that/than/ # sorry my typing sucks today
[15:33] <Keybuk> for the TB record, this is over a blanket ban on discussion about "sexuality" in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[15:33] <Keybuk> (as well as religion, race, etc.)
[15:33] <sabdfl> it's not the irc council you are critiquing, it's the CC
[15:33] <sabdfl> Keybuk: in which you are personally involved
[15:33] <mdz> folks, we are more than halfway through our time and have not wrapped the first agenda item yet
[15:34] <sabdfl> I didn't realise the IRC council had not adapted their position, i will take care of that now
[15:34] <Keybuk> my concern is the fact that the IRC Council are not allowing themselves to be governed by the CC
[15:34] <sabdfl> however, i think it's inappropriate for you to translate that concern, about #ubuntu-offtopic, into a secession in #ubuntu-devel
[15:34] <mdz> if there are outstanding concerns from the developer community regarding the IRC council, it seems reasonable to assess those and respond before we make a decision on #ubuntu-devel ops
[15:34] <sabdfl> Keybuk: the CC will replace them if they don't sort that out
[15:35] <sabdfl> now, i'd like to put it to the TB that we either add the IRC council to the ops in #ubuntu-devel, or escalate it to the CC, where I will argue that we should do just that
[15:35] <sabdfl> deferring for a month, and doing nothing, isn't an option
[15:35] <mdz> I thought the latter was exactly what we had agreed
[15:35] <cjwatson> I thought that's what we just voted on, and got a tie which I assumed you were going to break with your casting vote
[15:36] <Keybuk> we agreed that, no?
[15:36] <cjwatson> the exact wording was "give ops to the IRC Council nickname"
[15:36] <Keybuk> sorry, with all the back and forth, the log is a bit confusing
[15:36] <Keybuk> but we tied on adding them immediately
[15:36] <Keybuk> so then agreed to add them for a month and review
[15:36] <Keybuk> taking it up with the CC after
[15:36] <cjwatson> that matches my understanding
[15:36] <sabdfl> ok, i misunderstood the fallout
[15:36] <sabdfl> i didn't want to use a casting vote
[15:37] <sabdfl> thought the latter vote was +1 for adding now, reviewing in a month and escalating to the CC if unsatisfactory then
[15:37] <sabdfl> in which case i'm happy
[15:37] <Keybuk> it was :D
[15:37] <sabdfl> i asked to confirm that, and it got complicated
[15:37] <sabdfl> i was confused by:
[15:37] <cjwatson> regardless of the exact voting mechanics, I think that seems to be more or less what we're agreed on
[15:37] <sabdfl> (04:30:43 PM) Keybuk: sabdfl: not that I could tell, there was no vote for granting ops now
[15:37] <mdz> it was 0 on adding the irc council as ops, and +3 on reviewing the situation later (which I thought implied working to address Keybuk and cjwatson's concerns in the interim)
[15:37] <Keybuk> sabdfl: ohh, that was on the casting vote bit
[15:38] <Keybuk> ie. mootbot has no facility for it
[15:38] <sabdfl> so thought that you were voting for NOT granting ops now, and just waiting to see if the IRC council went away :-)
[15:38] <cody-somerville> lol
[15:38] <sabdfl> ok, so we were all voting for different things. lucky we all agreed then ;-)
[15:38] <Keybuk> the second vote was your suggestion
[15:38] <ogra> heh
[15:38] <jono> anyone need a coffee?
[15:38] <jono> :)
[15:38]  * ogra looks at the wallclock
[15:38] <Keybuk> anyyyyway
[15:38] <mdz> sounds like we need a re-vote on a clearer proposition
[15:38] <Keybuk> next agenda item
[15:39] <sabdfl> can we agree to add them now, and review in a month, escalating if they have not done a job we are satisfied with?
[15:39] <pan1nx> what meeting am I in now? CC or Kernel-Team?
[15:39] <cjwatson> sabdfl: yes
[15:39] <sabdfl> Keybuk: can we vote on that if needed?
[15:39]  * pan1nx confussed...
[15:39] <Keybuk> sabdfl: I agree with that
[15:39] <ogra> pan1nx, TB
[15:39] <mdz> pan1nx: technical board
[15:39] <jono> pan1nx, TB
[15:39] <Keybuk> mdz: I think we all agreed with that while trying to figure out what we agreed
[15:39] <Keybuk> let's be clear
[15:39] <Keybuk> [VOTE] give the IRC Council ops now, review in one month, raising any concerns with the CC
[15:39] <MootBot> Please vote on:  give the IRC Council ops now, review in one month, raising any concerns with the CC.
[15:39] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:39] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:39] <Keybuk> +1
[15:39] <cjwatson> +1
[15:39] <MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:39] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:39]  * pan1nx slaps himself...total ahead of time...
[15:40] <cjwatson> *headdesk*
[15:40] <sabdfl> +1
[15:40] <MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:40] <sabdfl> \o/ democracy is complicated
[15:40] <mdz> -1
[15:40] <MootBot> -1 received from mdz. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:40] <Keybuk> [ENDVOTE]
[15:40] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 1 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
[15:40] <Keybuk> sabdfl: condorcet TB voting?
[15:40] <Keybuk> [AGREED] give the IRC Council ops now, review in one month, raising any concerns with the CC
[15:40] <MootBot> AGREED received:  give the IRC Council ops now, review in one month, raising any concerns with the CC
[15:40] <sabdfl> none of the above
[15:40] <Keybuk> moving on
[15:40] <Keybuk> QUICKLY!
[15:40] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Codecs in ffmpeg
[15:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Codecs in ffmpeg
[15:40] <Keybuk> siretart: ?
[15:41] <cjwatson> siretart said he couldn't be here
[15:41] <cjwatson> there was a discussion in #ubuntu-devel earlier today
[15:41] <Keybuk> should this be carried over to the next meeting or deferred until he re-proposes it?
[15:41] <cjwatson> 13:36 <mdz> siretart`: I haven't spoken to him about it recently, but he is here and will be at the meeting
[15:41] <cjwatson> 13:37 <mdz> siretart`: if there's nothing to discuss, we can skip it.  is it resolved?
[15:41] <cjwatson> 13:37 <siretart`> mdz: IIRC, you wanted to check with sabdfl if what we discussed (not munging the ffmpeg source anymore) was OK and if yes, to proceed so in karmic
[15:41] <cjwatson> 13:38 <siretart`> I'm unsure if we discussed enabling the encoders, but TBH, the more interesting ones are in the multiverse package anyways..
[15:41] <cjwatson> 13:38 <mdz> siretart`: I was pretty sure we resolved that in a meeting, that munging the source was unnecessary
[15:41] <cjwatson> 13:38 <siretart`> though h263 would certainly be interesting to users of ekiga
[15:42] <cjwatson> I think it's only being carried over on the agenda because nobody has removed it, and the chair should probably remove it after this meeting until there is a new concrete question
[15:42] <Keybuk> ok, sounds like it's resolved unless sabdfl has anything to add?
[15:43] <sabdfl> nothing further from me
[15:43] <mdz> nor me
[15:43] <Keybuk> ok
[15:43] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] The ubuntu-drivers team - document, restructure or retire? (MattZimmerman)
[15:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  The ubuntu-drivers team - document, restructure or retire? (MattZimmerman)
[15:44] <Keybuk> sabdfl: I sent you and Kiko a mail after the last TB meeting
[15:44] <Keybuk> At the Technical Board meeting this week, the purpose of the Ubuntu
[15:44] <Keybuk> Drivers team was raised.
[15:44] <Keybuk>  - What privileges are granted by membership of this team?
[15:44] <Keybuk>  - Can we split those privileges out and grant them to more specific
[15:44] <Keybuk>    teams?
[15:44] <Keybuk> I guess this agenda item consists of a chase for that information ;)
[15:44] <mdz> recap from the previous meeting:
[15:45] <mdz> == ubuntu-drivers ==
[15:45] <mdz> The ubuntu-drivers team exists with various people and other teams
[15:45] <mdz> attached to it, and itself is used as the driver of the Ubuntu
[15:45] <mdz> distribution and the current development release.  However it's not
[15:45] <mdz> clear what this is actually used for, and whether there are better
[15:45] <mdz> alternatives to using this team.
[15:45] <mdz> We agreed that Mark should investigate, Scott will begin the process by
[15:45] <mdz> mailing him and the LP lead.
[15:46] <Keybuk> sabdfl: ? :)
[15:46] <sabdfl> reading
[15:47] <sabdfl> the original intent was for drivers to be the folsk who make commitments regarding release goals and blockers
[15:47] <sabdfl> i.e., the folks who separate the list of bugs into "things we are tracking closely" and "things that would be nice to have"
[15:48] <sabdfl> it's clear that for something as complex as ubuntu, having one set of folks for both blueprints and bugs was a mistake
[15:48] <sabdfl> that's the extent of my knowledge on the subject
[15:48] <cjwatson> we've found in Ubuntu that this tends to precipitate itself out into those two separate functions, indeed
[15:48] <cjwatson> high-level vs. nuts-and-bolts
[15:48] <sabdfl> one thing i've noticed is that the team is more interested now in having "release goals" as a managed list, separate from everything else
[15:49] <sabdfl> so there's value in the nomination-and-decision cycle, even if there are flaws in the implementation
[15:49] <sabdfl> i'm open to proposals on how we could re-architect the permissions and processes
[15:49] <cjwatson> one thing which has been resolved recently is that per-package uploaders are at least able to accept nominations, which takes a bit of the immediate pressure off
[15:49] <mdz> sabdfl: how can we find out exactly what privileges the ubuntu-drivers team currently has?
[15:49] <mdz> we need more information in order to be able to make a decision on this
[15:49] <sabdfl> ideally, a proposal which starts out well for a tiny project and scales well to a very large one
[15:50] <sabdfl> use the source, luke ;-)
[15:50] <sabdfl> cjwatson: nominations for bugs, you mean?
[15:50] <cjwatson> (but the per-package uploaders bit only affects stable releases; for the development release, accepting nominations is currently reserved only to drivers, not to developers too)
[15:50] <cjwatson> sabdfl: yes
[15:50] <sabdfl> are those bugs being used to track SRU fixes in queue?
[15:51] <cjwatson> i.e. /ubuntu's driver is ~ubuntu-drivers, while /ubuntu/{dapper,hardy,intrepid,jaunty} have developers as an additional driver
[15:51] <cjwatson> at least IIRC
[15:51] <sabdfl> at least originally, you could have a core team on /ubuntu, and supplemental folks in additional teams on each of the releases
[15:51] <cjwatson> yes, they are, and it's part of the SRU process to get the bugs targeted, which is why this has been an issue chiefly for the kernel team who have a very high throughput there
[15:51] <cjwatson> yes, that's what we're doing
[15:51] <mdz> sabdfl: the source, even if I had the gumption to search through the whole thing, is not sufficient
[15:51] <mdz> sabdfl: I can't tell from the source where "ubuntu-drivers" has been granted privileges in the production instance of LP
[15:51] <cjwatson> but it's still pretty unclear what's going on for karmic
[15:52] <mdz> it's potentially more than just the driver slot on /ubuntu
[15:52] <sabdfl> mdz: iirc it's programmatic - if you are in the set of drivers for a series (combination of project drivers and series drivers) you get The Powers
[15:53] <sabdfl> and the powers are mainly, iirc, accepting nominations of blueprints and bugs as release-targets
[15:53] <mdz> it would be nice if /~ubuntu-drivers showed where it was being used
[15:53] <wgrant> cjwatson: There's nothing special about the development series - it seems anybody with upload rights to a package can approve release nominations throughout the distro.
[15:53] <sabdfl> yes, LP should tell this more explicitly
[15:53] <wgrant> cjwatson: Throughout all distroseries, that is.
[15:53] <cjwatson> wgrant: there is, in that NewReleaseCycleProcess involves setting ~ubuntu-core-dev as a series driver for the series that just went stable
[15:54]  * cody-somerville nods.
[15:54] <mdz> could someone from LP give us a few paragraphs explaining how it works, and then we can review the way it's set up and make adjustments if necessary?
[15:54] <cody-somerville> A distroseries can have a driver similar to project series can have a driver.
[15:54] <cjwatson> I mean, yes there's nothing special about the development series per code but there is per the policy that we're currently applying (constructed largely by accretion)
[15:54] <Keybuk> sabdfl: could you follow up with kiko to find the most appropraite LP person to give us an answer to mdz's question?
[15:54] <cjwatson> we'd like to actually understand our policy so that we can fix it when it seems broken
[15:54] <sabdfl> bjornt is that person
[15:54] <wgrant> cjwatson: That's not used in most cases.
[15:54] <cjwatson> hence this agenda item
[15:55] <Keybuk> mdz: would you be happy to talk to bjornt directly?
[15:55] <sabdfl> all the developers have been pulled off blueprints in order to accelerate codehosting and bugs development
[15:55] <mdz> sabdfl: the drivers slot is only used for bugs?
[15:55] <sabdfl> i think the permissions system in LP needs a rethink, but that will require kiko's leadership
[15:56] <sabdfl> drivers used to be used for bugs and blueprints targeting
[15:56] <mdz> Keybuk: ok, I will take the action to chase it
[15:56] <Keybuk> great
[15:56] <mdz> I have a call with kiko in 5 minutes anyway
[15:56] <sabdfl> both bugs and blueprints had the same principle - you could nominate it to a release, and the drivers would say yay or nay
[15:56] <Keybuk> [ACTION] mdz to talk to kiko/bjornt to investigate drivers powers
[15:56] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to talk to kiko/bjornt to investigate drivers powers
[15:56] <mdz> in practice, bug targeting has turned out NOT to be a centralized function
[15:56] <Keybuk> we're running very low on time
[15:56] <sabdfl> unless you were actually a driver, in which case you were deemed to ack your own nomination, which turned out to be a problem
[15:56] <Keybuk> Corey is not here, and did not mail the TB list with what he wanted to discuss, so we can skip that item
[15:57] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Archive Reorg
[15:57] <MootBot> New Topic:  Archive Reorg
[15:57] <cjwatson> the specific items here should have been removed after the last meeting; they were covered last time. I do have one specific plea to make
[15:57] <cjwatson> I sent a mail "Subject: Archive reorganisation: announcement of pending work" on 29 April, which nobody else from the TB has yet replied to
[15:57] <cjwatson> we need to get an announcement out to developers about what we're doing, and it's getting increasingly urgent
[15:57] <Keybuk> cjwatson: I had no comments ;)
[15:57] <cjwatson> could each of the other TB members please take ten minutes to read and at least +1/-1 this mail?
[15:58] <Keybuk> so +1
[15:58] <cjwatson> Keybuk: thanks
[15:58] <cjwatson> (dholbach has pinged twice after my original mail with no response)
[15:58] <Keybuk> you technically called for comments, not replies <g>
[15:58] <mdz> there are a lot of mails I haven't replied to since 29 April
[15:59] <mdz> even my inbox is only up to about 17 april at the moment
[15:59] <Keybuk> I propose we defer the Mono discussion until a later date, as I believe this room is booked
[15:59] <cjwatson> consider this a request to move this one up the queue a bit, if you can ...
[15:59] <Keybuk> alternatively we could begin it on the ML
[15:59] <cjwatson> let's do that
[15:59] <Keybuk> cjwatson: do you want to kick it off?
[15:59] <cjwatson> suckered
[16:00] <Keybuk> [ACTION] cjwatson to begin mono discussion on ML
[16:00] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to begin mono discussion on ML
[16:00] <Keybuk> [ACTION] mdz and sabdfl to review archive reorg mail sent on 29 April
[16:00] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz and sabdfl to review archive reorg mail sent on 29 April
[16:00] <Keybuk> AOB?
[16:00] <mdz> cjwatson: is my response to that email blocking anyone's work?
[16:01] <mdz> if so, I will prioritize it, otherwise it will come around as I work through my backlog
[16:01] <cjwatson> mdz: yes, we can't meaningfully start interviewing developers whose permissions ought to change without telling them what's going on
[16:01] <Keybuk> one AOB item from me: this will be my last TB meeting, my membership expires this week.  If there is desire for me to do so, I'd like to stand alongside other developers for renomination as part of an effort to increase the size of the group as we discussed last week - rather than just being added back in directly
[16:01] <cjwatson> unless you simply want to tell me to go ahead of course
[16:01] <mdz> cjwatson: ok, I'll have a look
[16:01] <cjwatson> thanks
[16:02] <sabdfl> cjwatson: +1 on that email
[16:02] <cjwatson> sabdfl: thank you
[16:02] <cjwatson> Keybuk: personally I'd like to see you stand for renomination
[16:02] <sabdfl> me too
[16:02] <cjwatson> (though I'd also have no objection to you being added straight back in, but that isn't my call :-) )
[16:03] <cjwatson> I suggest that perhaps Keybuk's term should be extended until the election?
[16:03]  * mdz wonders if anyone else is expiring soon
[16:03] <mdz> mine is up in August
[16:03] <cjwatson> mdz: well, it *is* kind of hot here
[16:03] <mdz> cjwatson: har
[16:03] <mdz> cjwatson: you're due in 2011
[16:03] <persia> Based on recent experience from MOTU Council, it is *very* useful to extend memberships through to elections.
[16:04] <mdz> sabdfl: your membership has no expiry at all, which seems odd
[16:04] <sabdfl> on that note, i'm off to the design team
[16:04] <sabdfl> ;-)
[16:04] <Keybuk> thanks all
[16:04] <Keybuk> #endmeeting
[16:04] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:04.
[16:04] <sabdfl> thanks all
[16:04] <Keybuk> and apologies to the server team ;)
[16:04] <ttx> Keybuk: :)
[16:05] <cjwatson> sorry, whose action is the decision on whether to extend Keybuk's membership?
[16:05] <cjwatson> shall I take that to mail?
[16:05] <ttx> Ok, who is here for the server team meeting ?
[16:05] <ivoks> o/
[16:05] <nealmcb> o/
[16:05] <zul> o/
[16:05] <ivoks> standard crew ;)
[16:05] <MenZa> oh dear.
[16:05] <alex_muntada> o/
[16:05] <aruetten> o/
[16:05] <sommer> o//
[16:06]  * \sh is lurking ;)
[16:06] <artir> \o/
[16:06] <thewrath>  o/
[16:06] <ttx> lots of new heads
[16:06] <ivoks> lots of new people...
[16:06]  * MenZa will be idling, although not *present*
[16:06] <ttx> ok, let's get started, then
[16:06] <ttx> #startmeeting
[16:06] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:06. The chair is ttx.
[16:06] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:07] <ttx> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:07] <ttx> last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090512
[16:08] <ttx> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:08] <ttx> Hm, not so much action points from the rpevious meeting... Did anyone manage to find dendrobates at UDS and have him buy you a beer ?
[16:09] <kirkland> ttx: ack
[16:09] <kirkland> dendrobates: thanks!
[16:09] <sommer> <- this guy :-)
[16:09] <ttx> Lucky you :)
[16:09] <ivoks> hehe
[16:09] <ttx> which brings us to...
[16:09] <ttx> [TOPIC] UDS local/remote participation feedback
[16:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  UDS local/remote participation feedback
[16:10] <ttx> Is there any feedback from local and remote participants to the Server track at UDS ?
[16:10] <ivoks> RoAkSoAx: ?
[16:10] <ttx> Did anyone here try to participate remotely ? How did it go ?
[16:10] <RoAkSoAx> I did
[16:10] <artir> The gobby server sucked
[16:10] <artir> big time
[16:11] <artir> 1/3 of the time it was down :(
[16:11] <ttx> artir: yes, we mentioned that during the local feedback session. The end result is that the notes taken during the sessions are less useful than usual
[16:11] <artir> ok
[16:12] <jbianquetti> dual gobby servers (gobby.conference and gobby.ubuntu.com) was a pain
[16:12] <RoAkSoAx> Listening to the meetings: They had a pretty good sound quality. Good use of #uds-server channel. Gobby was not the best thing though
[16:12] <ivoks> right, couple of people reported great sound quality
[16:12] <ttx> yes, that's positive, usually you couldn't really hear anything
[16:13] <ttx> that said, it's a little scary, given the jokes and private talks near the mikes :)
[16:13] <ttx> ok, anyone else has UDS feedback ? Were the sessions interesting / boring ?
[16:13] <alex_muntada> i for one learnt a lot, it was my first uds
[16:14] <ivoks> very interesting :)
[16:14] <ivoks> except the cloud spam :)
[16:14] <nealmcb> was there any audio or video recording?
[16:14] <ttx> nealmcb: yes, several sessions were videotaped
[16:14] <nealmcb> :)
[16:14] <artir> icecast servers for audio
[16:14] <ttx> nealmcb: videos need to be synced/uploaded, should be ready in a couple weeks
[16:14] <artir> I want to see those vids :)
[16:15]  * zul needs to learn not to get sick before a uds
[16:15] <cody-somerville> zul, You're the one that infected me with this!
[16:15] <ttx> OK, anything else on the UDS topic ?
[16:16] <ttx> cody-somerville: hug culture has some drawbacks
[16:16] <artir> lol hug culture
[16:16] <cody-somerville> I made a point of not hugging anyone
[16:16] <cody-somerville> Or wait, thats not true :(
[16:16] <ttx> ok, moving on to...
[16:16] <ttx> [TOPIC] Review progress made on the specification listed on the Roadmap
[16:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review progress made on the specification listed on the Roadmap
[16:17] <ttx> Anyone has any progress to report ? Or new items they want added to that page ?
[16:17] <ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
[16:18] <ttx> I saw that merging was under way for several packages
[16:18] <ttx> RoAkSoAx: you need a main sponsor for your openvpn merge, right
[16:19] <RoAkSoAx> ttx, i do
[16:20] <ttx> ok, someone might hear you. I already reviewed the merge so it's more a second review + upload, for anyone interested
[16:20] <ivoks> any main sponsors here?
[16:21] <ttx> mathiaz reviewed the merge very early in the process, he will probably sponsor it when he'll be back to work
[16:21] <ttx> I guess we'll have more on the Roadmap once we'll have digested UDS and started pumping out specs !
[16:21] <ivoks> right
[16:21] <ttx> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
[16:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
[16:22] <ttx> Anyone / Anything ?
[16:22] <ivoks> it was nice seeing you all again at uds
[16:22] <zul> ditto
[16:23] <sommer> yes very good times :)
[16:24] <ttx> For the newcomers to the server team meeting, could you describe your areas of interest ?
[16:24] <ttx> alex_muntada, artir: ^
[16:25] <alex_muntada> i'm a sysadmin in an university in barcelona, and i'm quite interested in config management right now
[16:25] <snth> By new comers .. do you mean people that want to join .. or people that have mentors and all?
[16:25] <ivoks> snth: all
[16:25] <ttx> I mean, people I don't know that fallow this meeting :) So basically, anyone
[16:25] <alex_muntada> but i'm also interested in cloud stuff since we have a couple of clusters and a new one is on the way
[16:26] <ttx> alex_muntada: you were present at UDS last week, I gather
[16:26] <alex_muntada> yes, i was one of the local team guys
[16:26] <alex_muntada> i was wearing that perl mongers t-shirt on thursday ;-)
[16:26] <ttx> cool :)
[16:26]  * artir lurks everywhere :)
[16:27] <snth> I work as a software developer and interested in config management .. and the little things that make the user experience much cooler. If this makes any sense.
[16:27] <alex_muntada> i'd like to join the ubuntu-server team, since servers are mostly my everyday work
[16:27] <ivoks> nice... new people
[16:27] <ttx> alex_muntada: well, the team is very open :)
[16:28] <snth> So, how do we join? what's the process?
[16:28] <ttx> See at the end of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved
[16:29] <ttx> Don't hesitate to talk to us to see where you prefer to fit in the big family picture
[16:29] <jbianquetti> Hello, I'm newbie to ubuntu-server too.
[16:29] <alex_muntada> i'm already on the list since uds and just requested membership
[16:29] <ivoks> if you want to work on packaging, you should check out motu mentoring process
[16:29] <ivoks> you could also help us triage bugs
[16:29] <asanchez> jbianquetti and me both work for the Advanced Center for ICT Schools Management in Andalusia, Spain and we mantain all the servers of schools (that currently are running Debian). We are highly interested in all the things that Ubuntu server could offer to us.
[16:30] <ttx> the GettingInvolved page I mentioned details all the kinds of contribution
[16:30] <snth> ttx: I signed up for launchpad and found some bugs that I think I can help with. Should I just go ahead and make a patch and send it to the assignee?
[16:30] <ivoks> asanchez: and we are interested in your experience and knowledge; so that toghether we can bring peace to the world...
[16:30] <ivoks> er... wrong line
[16:30] <jbianquetti> or what can we offer to Ubuntu...
[16:31] <ttx> snth: yes, working on pathes would be great
[16:31] <ttx> patches, even
[16:31] <asanchez> We'll be very proud to collaborate with ubuntu-server
[16:31] <ivoks> snth: add it to the bug
[16:32] <ivoks> ok, idea
[16:32] <snth> Oh OK .. If I have questions, do I ask the assignee or in #ubuntu-devel or here? or I should try everywhere :)?
[16:32] <ttx> so please have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved and see where you can help. For the next meeting I'll add an item to the agenda so that we can discuss your interest more
[16:32] <ivoks> we should have a defined path on bug triaging
[16:33] <ttx> snth: I'd try #ubuntu-server first
[16:33] <snth> ttx: Cool .. thanks man
[16:34] <ttx> this brings us to...
[16:34] <ttx> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:34] <nealmcb> Sorry to miss uds.  But I had a great time at Google I/O (where they gave us free android phones :) and should soon get an account on their internal alpha of Google Wave.  I expect wave to be a big deal - combination of mail, wiki, chat, gobby and other forms of collaboration with a cool new open federation algorithm.   See e.g. http://wave.google.com/ and  http://mashable.com/2009/05/28/google-wave-guide/
[16:35] <ttx> same time, same channel, next week ?
[16:35] <ivoks> sure
[16:36] <sommer> works for me :)
[16:36] <nealmcb> but I don't expect wave to be ready for karmic.....
[16:37] <alex_muntada> it's ok for me too
[16:37] <ttx> I hope to see all those new members of the team again next week !
[16:37] <ttx> mathiaz will have processed your applications to the ~ubuntu-server Launchpad team
[16:38] <ttx> #endmeeting
[16:38] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:38.
[16:38] <sommer> thanks ttx
[16:38] <ttx> more ubuntu-server discussion on #ubuntu-server
[16:38] <ttx> sommer: \o/
[16:38] <snth> ttx: What applications?
[16:39] <ttx> snth: applications for ubuntu-server team membership on Lunchpad
[16:39] <ttx> as described on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved#becomemember
[16:40] <snth> Thanks
[16:41] <ivoks> ttx rulez
[17:57] <pochu> popey, Pricey, Seveas, stgraber: I don't think I'll be able to attend tonight's meeting, so just in case, I want you to know I completely support stani's application; he's doing (for a long time already) a great work as an upstream and also in Ubuntu and Debian by taking care of his packages. He also once told me if I ever went to the Netherlands he would host me :-) so a big +1 from me! go stani!
[17:57] <stgraber> pochu: noted
[17:58] <pochu> thanks :) feel free to quote that during his application :)
[17:59] <popey> thanks pochu
[18:00] <pochu> thanks to you guys
[18:00] <pochu> popey: I didn't see you at UDS
[18:01] <popey> pochu: i wasnt there :)
[18:02] <bjf> rollcall!
[18:02]  * apw fades in ...
[18:02] <pochu> that explains it :)
[18:02]  * cking is here
[18:02]  * apw fades in ...
[18:02]  * amitk is here
[18:02]  * smb arrives
[18:02]  * ogasawara waves
[18:02]  * jjohansen1 here
[18:02]  * ogra lurks
[18:02]  * lieb looks about
[18:02] <bjf> #startmeeting
[18:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is bjf.
[18:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:02] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[18:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[18:03] <bjf> [TOPIC] Open Items: "ogasawara smb_tp apw to discuss regression lists"
[18:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "ogasawara smb_tp apw to discuss regression lists"
[18:03] <apw> that discussion got side tracked onto bug process
[18:03] <apw> and i think we'll be using some magic from bryce in here
[18:04] <apw> but that does leave the disucssion on what our bug list should contain which we still need
[18:04] <apw> and now need to re-discuss
[18:04] <smb> Saw you where starting generically. Guess in generall this sounded reasonable
[18:04] <ogasawara> I'm going to write up a wiki etc outlining the new process/policy
[18:04] <apw> ogasawara, smb, we do still need to get together on the phone perhaps and discuss how the new stuff affects us
[18:04] <smb> ogasawara, apw Should we get together on skype somewhen this week
[18:04] <apw> ogasawara, soundslike a good starting point to me
[18:04] <ogasawara> smb: works for me
[18:05] <apw> smb, ack
[18:05] <bjf> [ACTION] apw, smb, ogasawara to phone conference about regression lists
[18:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  apw, smb, ogasawara to phone conference about regression lists
[18:05] <apw> ack
[18:05] <bjf> [ACTION] remove this item from the next agenda
[18:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  remove this item from the next agenda
[18:05] <bjf> [TOPIC] Open Items: "manjo to formulate mail on HW list"
[18:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "manjo to formulate mail on HW list"
[18:05] <bjf> is manjo even here?
[18:06] <apw> i believe that action was done, so drop it
[18:06] <amitk> doesn't look like it
[18:06] <cking> probably moving house
[18:06] <smb> maybe moving his house
[18:06] <jjohansen1> IIRC he took today as a swap day
[18:06] <bjf> [TOPIC] Open Items: "apw, update the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KermicKoala/TechnicalOverview page with our bits?"
[18:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "apw, update the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KermicKoala/TechnicalOverview page with our bits?"
[18:06] <smb> (or better the contents)
[18:06] <apw> that one was completed
[18:06] <apw> updated in time for alpha-1 announcement
[18:07] <apw> you can drop that too
[18:07] <bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels: Jaunty
[18:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels: Jaunty
[18:08] <bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels: Intrepid
[18:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels: Intrepid
[18:08] <apw> smb, ?
[18:08] <smb> pulling text
[18:08] <smb> Dapper:   idle
[18:08] <smb> Hardy:    In preparation of proposed upload
[18:08] <smb> Intrepid: linux-2.6.27-14.34 and lrm have been uploaded but not yet accepted.
[18:08] <smb>           Those will be the last updates to Intrepid, except for OMG and CVE
[18:08] <smb>           updates.
[18:08] <smb> Jaunty:   Uploaded linux-2.6.28-13.44, lbm-2.6.28-13.14 and
[18:08] <smb>           lrm-2.6.28-13.17. Those are intended to move to updates
[18:08] <smb>           soon to allow the next proposed kernel which includes the
[18:08] <smb>           stable updates.
[18:09] <bjf> [TOPIC] Karmic Status: Alpha-2 June 11th
[18:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Status: Alpha-2 June 11th
[18:09] <apw> (we should consider having one item for 'Stable Kernels' for you to report gainst
[18:09] <apw> we have just uploaded an 2.6.30-rc7 based kernel
[18:09] <apw> we are working on vfs union-mount as an option for live cd's too
[18:09] <bjf> [ACTION] Add single item for 'Stable Kernels' for smb to report against
[18:09] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Add single item for 'Stable Kernels' for smb to report against
[18:09] <apw> otherwise ticking along nicely expecting a real 2.6.30 next week
[18:10] <bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Tree: status
[18:10] <apw> as the kernel plan is officially 2.6.31 we will track the linus' head onto 2.6.31-rc1 as it comes out
[18:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Tree: status
[18:10] <apw> bjf ?  :)
[18:10]  * ogra listens up
[18:10] <apw> amitk, ?
[18:11] <bjf> I'm off to visit folks next week with davidm
[18:11] <apw> sounds promising
[18:11] <ogra> is there a chance we'll see the babbage2 imx51 kernel for A2 ?
[18:11] <bjf> I also have a bunch of new imx51 patches to incorporate into the karmic kernel tree
[18:11] <bjf> ogra, no
[18:11] <ogra> :(
[18:12] <bjf> the babbage2 patches are to be available for A3
[18:12] <amitk> ogra: what are the differences from babbage 1? are the mem addresses different?
[18:12] <ogra> amitk, no idea, the babbage1 kernel doesnt boot on the 2 hardware is all i know
[18:13] <bjf> amitk, you have any status?
[18:13] <ogra> if we keep the babbage1 stuff in until A3 i can test on the B1 though
[18:13] <apw> yay for compatibility
[18:13] <amitk> bjf: just working on rewriteing some bits for upstream
[18:13] <amitk> *rewriting, even
[18:13] <bjf> [TOPIC] LPIA Tree: status
[18:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  LPIA Tree: status
[18:14] <sconklin> I'm continuing to review the patches we took as the delta to hardy distro
[18:14] <sconklin> Have reviewed about 2/3 of the 150 or so patches that aren't just touching changelog, etc
[18:15] <apw> i hope we are planning on only pulling them forward when they are clearly needed
[18:15] <sconklin> The vast majority were backported from later kernels, so no actions required. I've only found a handful of ata wuirky things to be pushed upstream
[18:15] <apw> excellent news
[18:15] <smb> indeed
[18:15]  * cking is pleased t hear that
[18:15] <sconklin> apw: yes. So far the only thing to be pulled forward are the things not yet upstrem
[18:16]  * apw smiles
[18:16] <bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions / Bug day report
[18:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions / Bug day report
[18:16] <ogasawara> I emailed you guys a new bug list this week, no new regressions.
[18:16] <ogasawara> stats from last bug day is at http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20090512.html
[18:16] <smb> \o/
[18:16] <ogasawara> I'd also like to hold the next bug day next Tuesday June 9 since we missed having one during AllHands/UDS.  I'll send email later this week.
[18:17] <ogasawara> bjf: that's it
[18:17] <bjf> TOPIC] Summary of Kernel decisions made at UDS
[18:17] <bjf> [TOPIC] Summary of Kernel decisions made at UDS
[18:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Summary of Kernel decisions made at UDS
[18:17] <bjf> that's me, give me a sec
[18:17] <bjf> Karmic Kernel SRU discussion
[18:17] <bjf>         The major change here is that we will not be picking up as many patches from the stable tree.
[18:17] <bjf>         Mostly Stefan has been given authority to rule as he sees fit.
[18:18]  * amitk bows to smb 
[18:18] <smb> Actually we will no more picking up patches from the stable tree by default
[18:18] <apw> we should likely review the policy docs in this area and ensure they match the updated reality
[18:18]  * smb blushes
[18:19] <bjf> "Remove Ubuntu Drivers" Evaluate Ubuntu Drivers
[18:19] <bjf>         aufs                     - DISABLE/DROP
[18:19] <bjf>         compcache                - UPSTREAM direct
[18:19] <bjf>         dm-loop                  - DISABLE/DROP
[18:19] <bjf>         dm-raid4-5               - STAGING? REFRESH?
[18:19] <bjf>         drbd                     - looks to be going upstream
[18:19] <bjf>         gfs                      - DISABLE
[18:19] <bjf>         iscsitarget              - RESEARCH
[18:19] <bjf>         lenovo-sl-laptop         - DISABLE
[18:19] <bjf>         ndiswrapper              - REFRESH
[18:19] <bjf>         rfkill/av5100            - STAGING pronto
[18:19] <bjf>         rfkill/pbe5              - STAGING pronto
[18:19] <smb> bjf, Can you make that review a task
[18:19] <bjf>         tlsup                    - DISABLE/DROP
[18:19] <bjf>         appleir.c                - REFRESH/RESEARCH removal
[18:19] <bjf>         fsam7400.c               - STAGING pronto
[18:19] <bjf>         lmpcm_usb.c              - REFRESH
[18:19] <bjf>         thinkpad_ec.c,tp_smapi.c - Legal issues
[18:19] <bjf>         misc/media/ov511         - * RESEARCH: is this covered by the video framwork already??
[18:19] <bjf>         misc/media/snd-bt-sco.c  - DISABLE/DROP
[18:19] <bjf>         misc/wireless/acx        - DISABLE/DROP
[18:20] <bjf> [ACTION] Review the policy docs w.r.t. SRU and ensure they matche the updated reality
[18:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Review the policy docs w.r.t. SRU and ensure they matche the updated reality
[18:20] <bjf> KMS
[18:20] <bjf>         Already available for Intel graphics. ATI and Nvidia open source drivers will support it.
[18:20] <bjf>         Make a testing distro each release to help with calls for testing
[18:20] <ogra> "compcache                - UPSTREAM direct" can you elaborate what that means ?
[18:21] <apw> ogra, that driver is not staging material really and was recommended for direct merge
[18:21] <ogra> ah
[18:21] <bjf> Suspend / Resume testing
[18:21] <bjf>         ACTIONS
[18:21] <bjf>          * produce a proceedure for handling
[18:21] <bjf>          * look at a targetted calls for testing
[18:21] <bjf>          * current debuging page needs updates
[18:21] <bjf>          * suspend/resume failure debug should report on suspend inhibit triggering
[18:21] <bjf>          * get with the hardware labs for testing here
[18:21] <bjf>          * detection of cirtain failures may be pertinant always
[18:22] <bjf> Kernel Flavours
[18:22] <bjf>         x86/x86_64
[18:22] <bjf>          * 64 bit space pretty much unchanged (generic and server)
[18:22] <bjf>          * Drop 32-bit server flavour
[18:22] <bjf>          * Add 32-bit pae flavour
[18:22] <bjf>         Ports
[18:22] <bjf>          * There is desire to pull back ports kernels into the main kernel.
[18:22] <bjf>          
[18:22] <bjf>         ARM
[18:22] <bjf>          * all ARM will move to armv6, imx51 will be the only flavour
[18:22] <bjf>         ACTIONS
[18:22] <bjf>          * look at pulling back the ports kernel, how big is the delta
[18:22] <bjf>          * evaluate NUMA for desktop for 64 in general
[18:22] <bjf>          * confirm EC2 can use our kernels
[18:23] <bjf> Kernel Wifi Goodness
[18:23] <bjf>         Discussion centered around better debugging of wifi issues. Possibly add a wifi wiki page similar to Bryce's X11 page.
[18:23]  * ogra doesnt think that ARM assumption is right ... there is another non imx51 board we'll support 
[18:23] <amitk> ogra: for now
[18:23] <ogra> right
[18:24] <bjf> Android
[18:24] <bjf>         targetting Karmic with 2.6.29 android trees
[18:25] <apw> so thats us testing an essentially virgin tree with karmic right?
[18:25] <bjf> The session on "Kernel SSD" and Using new kernels with old userspace I have not dug through yet so there is no summary
[18:25] <bjf> apw, I'm not exactly sure what that means
[18:25] <apw> we are going to look at common block alignments for all devices
[18:26] <apw> at the installer level
[18:26] <cking> as a speed optimisation
[18:27] <apw> bjf is that all the sessions ?
[18:27] <bjf> apw, yup
[18:27] <bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
[18:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
[18:28] <apw> take that as a no
[18:28] <bjf> guess not
[18:28] <bjf> [TOPIC] Next Meeting Chair Selection
[18:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Next Meeting Chair Selection
[18:28] <apw> i can take it
[18:28] <bjf> I can't do next Tues. as I'll be traveling
[18:28] <bjf> apw, it's yours
[18:28] <bjf> #endmeeting
[18:28] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:28.
[18:28] <apw> bjf send me on the moot bot output
[18:28] <bjf> thanks everyone
[18:29] <apw> bjf, thanks
[18:29] <bjf> apw, be just a sec
[18:29] <smb> bjf, bye
[18:29] <bjf> smb, bye
[19:02] <Frippe> exit
[21:01] <zaafouri> hi all
[21:01] <Lathund> hi
[21:01] <markvandenborre> hi
[21:01] <bencrisford> Hey
[21:01] <sakjur> Hi
[21:01] <bcurtiswx> hi
[21:01] <Frippe> hi
[21:01] <forumsmatthew> hello
[21:01] <stani> hi
[21:01] <juanje> hi
[21:01] <MaWaLe> hi filks
[21:01] <MaWaLe> s/filks/folks
[21:01] <czajkowski> aloha
[21:02] <simosx> ηι
[21:02] <simosx> hi ;-)
[21:02] <zaafouri> salam =)
[21:02] <phanatic> hello
[21:02] <popey> o/
[21:03] <forumsmatthew> السلام عليكم
[21:03] <popey> ooo get you
[21:03]  * popey pokes Seveas 
[21:03] <Phantomas> γεια σας
[21:03] <Seveas> hey
[21:03] <zaafouri> و عليكم السلام
[21:03] <forumsmatthew> :)
[21:04] <Seveas> who's missing?
[21:04] <Seveas> Pricey, prod!
[21:04] <MaWaLe> و علكم السلام و رحمة الله و بركاته
[21:04] <markvandenborre> Seveas: me here
[21:05] <Seveas> markvandenborre, it's been a long time :)
[21:05] <markvandenborre> yeah
[21:05] <Seveas> stgraber, prod
[21:05] <zaafouri> ALAYA,
[21:05] <forumsmatthew> I noticed we aren't listed on the fridge, and there is a meeting in an hour, so we'll have to keep it moving once we get going.
[21:05] <zaafouri> salam =)
[21:06] <ALAYA> salam zaafouri
[21:06] <zaafouri> MaWaLe,  السلام
[21:06] <MaWaLe> hi ALAYA
[21:06] <MaWaLe> hi zaafouri
[21:06] <MaWaLe> hi nizarus
[21:06] <ALAYA> hanen: thx for the wiki eg
[21:06] <popey> good to see you markvandenborre
[21:06] <MaWaLe> hi hanen
[21:06] <Seveas> please be quiet, there's a meeting in progress starting *now*
[21:06] <hanen> hey MaWaLe
[21:06] <Seveas> Frippe, you're first on the list, please introduce yourself to us
[21:06] <hanen> MaWaLe seems u liked him ;)
[21:07] <Seveas> other candidates: please prepare a 3-line introduction in a text editor ready to paste when it's your turn
[21:07]  * stgraber waves
[21:07] <popey> \o/
[21:07] <Frippe> Well, i am 17 yearsm, soon 18. I study at IT-Gymnasiet Södertörn in Sweden. I have use linux for while. about 2-3 years. I have programming skils in C# and python and some more.
[21:07] <hanen> ALAYA everyone is taking advantage of it, ill ask for percentage per usage ;)
[21:07] <Seveas> hanen, be quiet.
[21:08] <hanen> Seveas ok :'(
[21:09] <forumsmatthew> Okay, I'll say it. Frippe, there isn't much on your wiki page for us to use to determine your qualifications for membership.
[21:09] <Seveas> I'm going for a -1 due to no preparation. Wiki shows no info, launchpad no info of contributions
[21:09] <forumsmatthew> Sorry. -1 here as well.
[21:09] <markvandenborre> -1, same reasons
[21:09] <Seveas> Frippe, please read http://blogs.ubuntu-nl.org/dennis/2009/05/13/how-to-become-an-ubuntu-member-the-easy-way/ -- it is vital that you prepare for these meetings
[21:10] <markvandenborre> but please don't let that discourage you!
[21:10] <popey> I see some translations which is great, but they're over a very short period, and kinda stop around the time you went for membership. I'd like to see a more sustained effort. -1
[21:10] <forumsmatthew> We would welcome your return when you are better prepared!
[21:10] <stgraber> -1 for the already stated reasons
[21:10] <Frippe> Okey :)
[21:10] <Seveas> Lathund, you're up next!
[21:11] <Lathund> My name is Johan Eriksson and I live in Sweden, I'm 25 years old. I started using Linux in January 2007 and has since then been using Ubuntu. I'm currently a very active member at our swedish LoCo.
[21:12] <Seveas> any live cheers for Lathund today?
[21:12] <sakjur> Yeah
[21:12] <sakjur> :D
[21:12] <Seveas> sakjur, tell us something about Lathund
[21:12] <phanatic> Lathund: you have mentioned on your wikipage that you're a moderator of the swedish ubuntu forums. do you have a link to your profile page there?
[21:12] <sakjur> He've been an active administrator whom have taken care of the swedish Ubuntu LoCo forums well
[21:13] <popey> I see a cheer from Lars who is also an Ubuntu member
[21:13] <Seveas> and from yaeger
[21:13] <popey> would have been useful if we had links to the home pages of the people who cheered
[21:14] <Lathund> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/larslj theres Lars
[21:14] <popey> yeah, I found him :)
[21:14] <Seveas> Lathund, why xbmc and not elisa (Just curious, I'm trying out media centers)
[21:14] <popey> its the others I was looking for
[21:15] <sakjur> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/yeager Yeager
[21:15] <Lathund> Seveas: The functions, like VDPAU, a lot of plugins like streaming TV etc. And I like the look of it. :)
[21:16] <Seveas> k
[21:16] <maco> Seveas, LOL you're looking for setup advice during membership vetting?
[21:16] <Seveas> maco, it's a thinly disguised plot to see how people interact with competition :)
[21:16] <forumsmatthew> Um, he's testing the applicant's knowledge...yeah, that's it...
[21:17] <Seveas> Anyway i'm going for +1 based on testimonials from .se members and knowing that Lathund has been around for a while
[21:18] <sakjur> At a quick glance at his latest post i can see that he takes well care of beginners, often
[21:18] <forumsmatthew> I agree. +1
[21:18] <markvandenborre> +1
[21:18] <stgraber> +1 too
[21:18] <phanatic> lot of testimonials, +1
[21:19] <Seveas> popey, ?
[21:19] <popey> Yes, I agree, a few good testimonials from ubuntu members means +1 from me too
[21:19] <Seveas> cool
[21:19] <Seveas> +6 it is, welcome aboard the Ubuntu boat
[21:19] <forumsmatthew> congratulations
[21:19] <Lathund> Thank you very much!
[21:19]  * bencrisford congratulates Lathund
[21:19] <bcurtiswx> congrats
[21:19] <Lathund> Thx all! :)
[21:19] <Seveas> czajkowski, you're up next. Haven't we seen you before?
[21:19] <MaWaLe> congrats Lathund
[21:19] <czajkowski> Seveas: coudknt make it to the other meeting]
[21:20] <Mean-Machine> czajkowski, yay!
[21:20] <Mean-Machine> rock on!
[21:20] <Mean-Machine> \o/
[21:20] <czajkowski> Aloha, I'm Laura Czajkowski, and I'm involved in the running and helping to organise events for the ubuntu-ie LoCo here in Dublin with the rest of the community. I've been involed with the LoCo since I moved to Dublin in January 2008, taking part in face to face meets up and giving a hand at the drop in centre.  I'd been involved in my computer society back home in the university of limerick with Skynet and been running events there for a whil
[21:20] <popey> -1
[21:20] <popey> KIDDING!
[21:20] <popey> +1 from me.
[21:20] <Mean-Machine> rofl
[21:21] <czajkowski> popey: thansk for the heart attack there.
[21:21] <maco> popey, you confused me!
[21:21] <Seveas> popey, care to elaborate on that +1? (still reading wikipage...)
[21:22]  * maco guesses it's something to do with him hanging out in #ubuntu-women and getting to know her through there
[21:22]  * bencrisford giggles at maco's sugestion :P
[21:22] <phanatic> outstanding wiki page imho, this is how it should look like. +1
[21:22] <markvandenborre> +1
[21:22] <popey> she does good work for her loco, is enthusiastic and always eager to help, and knows her limits when she is stuck
[21:22] <forumsmatthew> I am very pleased by the testimonials
[21:22] <forumsmatthew> +1
[21:23] <Seveas> I'm impressed with the amount of work and the testimonials
[21:23] <Seveas> +2
[21:23] <czajkowski> thanks :) folks
[21:23] <maco> czajkowski, dont need your cheering section after all?
[21:23] <Mean-Machine> czajkowski, you go girl!
[21:23] <Seveas> stgraber, ?
[21:23] <stgraber> +1 based on the testimonials and popey's comment
[21:23] <forumsmatthew> I wish every applicant made it this easy
[21:23] <Seveas> forumsmatthew, indeed!
[21:23] <bencrisford> lol, forumsmatthew feel free to treat me like that ;)
[21:23] <Seveas> czajkowski, welcome aboard, please continue the good work!
[21:23] <czajkowski> aww ye just made my evening
[21:23] <forumsmatthew> congratulations
[21:23] <markvandenborre> without a single drop of doubt
[21:23] <markvandenborre> congratulations
[21:23] <maco> congrats czajkowski!
[21:23]  * bencrisford congratulates
[21:23] <Mean-Machine> czajkowski 'our man in Barcelona' ;-]
[21:24] <popey> czajkowski: party in moderation ;)
[21:24] <bcurtiswx> congrats czajkowski!
[21:24] <Mean-Machine> czajkowski, congrats!
[21:24] <zaafouri> congrats czajkowski
[21:24] <maco> Mean-Machine, our man in barcelona?
[21:24] <MaWaLe> congrats czajkowski
[21:24] <Seveas> bencrisford, you're next
[21:24] <Mamarok> congrats czajkowski :)
[21:24] <maco> she was one of the handful of us ladyfolk there
[21:24] <Mean-Machine> wooooooo man ;-]
[21:24] <Seveas> if we keep up the pace we can actually finish this meeting in time!
[21:24] <bencrisford> Hey!  My name is Ben.  I have been using and contributing to ubuntu for a while now in *many* different areas, mainly bug triaging and marketing.  I feel that membership is the next, appropriate stage in my ubuntu adventure, as I feel it would be a nice recognition to what I have put into ubuntu.  My wiki page is mostly up to date, there is a couple of testimonials there too :D.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BenCrisford  ht
[21:24] <bcurtiswx> czajkowski, putting the pressure on us other applicants :D
[21:24] <maco> bencrisford, you cut off just after the url
[21:25] <maco> er, the first url (looks like another http:// was coming)
[21:25] <bencrisford> maco: Theres nothing after the url, dont worry ;)
[21:25] <maco> oh ok
[21:25] <bencrisford> its just wiki page links
[21:27] <Seveas> bencrisford, it looks like you're doing work all over the place. Wouldn't it be better to focus a bit more on a specific area?
[21:27] <bencrisford> Seveas: Perhaps, its just I like doing a bit of everything, but im planning to settle more in one area
[21:27] <bencrisford> ill try and keep up my other contributions though
[21:27] <Seveas> bencrisford, which area will that be?
[21:28] <bencrisford> Well, im still pondering ;), perhaps bug triage, it is afterall where i started
[21:28] <maco> aw nothing wrong in my mind with a Renaissance Man...
[21:28] <markvandenborre> bencrisford: you seem to speak a little dutch, and even made a translation... have you worked with the dutch translation team?
[21:28] <bencrisford> Not much im afraid
[21:28] <bencrisford> but id certainly like to!
[21:28] <forumsmatthew> https://translations.launchpad.net/~bencrisford
[21:28] <bencrisford> I know it looks a bit lonely at the moment
[21:28] <Seveas> I see you joined the forums and launchpad in february. That, combined with the jumping all over the place makes me a bit nervous
[21:29] <popey> http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/files/ubuntu-poster.jpg like the poster :)
[21:29] <bencrisford> Seveas: I am a jumpy person, but im certainly sticking with ubuntu
[21:29] <bencrisford> popey: Thank you :)
[21:29] <Seveas> I'd like to see you focus on one area and deliver a significant and sustained contribution in it
[21:29] <bencrisford> Seveas: Ok...  Well, ill keep that in mind
[21:29] <bencrisford> that is one of my better qualities
[21:29] <Seveas> Not saying that your work is bad, but I find it hard to judge the quality if your work is spread out all over the place
[21:30] <Seveas> so +0 from me
[21:30] <popey> agreed
[21:30] <forumsmatthew> I'm okay with participation in multiple areas, but I would like to see some sustained presence and participation in at least one area combined with evidence in the form of multiple testimonials from others involved in that area
[21:30] <bencrisford> forumsmatthew: Understood :/ :)
[21:30] <markvandenborre> same thing here, I can't really say + or -
[21:30] <popey> yes, I'm inclined to agree. Your wiki page shows a very short history, and there's little evidence in launchpad. You're _clearly_ keen, and we'd like to encourage you to continue to contribute, but it's a +0 from me.
[21:30] <forumsmatthew> I'm not going to say "no," but I do think a "not yet" is in order. I'll +0 for now and hope to see you again later.
[21:31] <popey> yes, +0 in my mind is "come back in 3 months"
[21:31] <bencrisford> ok, fair enough ;)
[21:31] <Seveas> ok, see you then!
[21:31] <Seveas> stani, you're up
[21:31] <stani> I've been using Ubuntu since Hoary Hedgehog. I'm a bit active on various spots in the Ubuntu eco system, both downstream, upstream, launchpad and on the ubuntu forums. I'm active in the Dutch/Belgian loco (cd distribution, release parties, forums, ...) I also work within the Debian PAPT team in order that the packages get properly synced to Ubuntu.
[21:31] <stani> Not much of my cheers could attend this meeting, but left a testimonial on my wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Stani.
[21:32] <stgraber> I agree with what was said earlier, I like you involvment especially in edubuntu but would like to wait for a bit first to see how things goes.
[21:32] <stgraber> (that was for bencrisford of course)
[21:32] <bencrisford> stgraber: Yeah, ok thats cool :)
[21:32] <stgraber> < pochu> popey, Pricey, Seveas, stgraber: I don't think I'll be able to attend tonight's meeting, so just in case, I want you to know I completely support stani's application; he's doing (for a long  time already) a great work as an upstream and also in Ubuntu and Debian by taking care of his packages. He also once told me if I ever went to the Netherlands he would host me :-) so a big +1
[21:32] <stgraber>  frm me!i go stani!
[21:32] <markvandenborre> do notice my +1 on his wiki page
[21:33] <Seveas> I didn't get around to adding my +1 on his page
[21:33] <Seveas> I've known him for a while and he does Good Things, as you can read there
[21:33] <stgraber> I personaly met him at LGM2009 and discussed a bit on IRC, I like what he did and his relationship with Ubuntu, so a big +1 from me
[21:33] <forumsmatthew> I"m only halfway through the page, but I've seen enough to give a +1 (and now I'm reading for pleasure)
[21:33] <persia> While development is only a very small part of what stani does, I can't say enough about how much he does in that area.
[21:33] <phanatic> a very impressive wiki page (both contributions and testimonials) again, +1
[21:34] <markvandenborre> he presented some of his graph dev work at a release party here in Belgium... nice!
[21:34] <Seveas> popey, ?
[21:34] <JanC> Stani has been doing great things
[21:35] <popey> +1
[21:35] <Seveas> excellent!
[21:35] <sakjur> Be right back
[21:36] <Seveas> stani, welcome aboard!
[21:36] <bcurtiswx> congrats stani!
[21:36] <Seveas> ALAYA, you're next
[21:36] <stani> Thank you all very much!
[21:36]  * stani goes on working on phatch ;-)
[21:36] <Seveas> sakjur, pm me when you're back please
[21:36] <forumsmatthew> congratulations
[21:36] <JanC> \o/ stani
[21:36] <ALAYA> hello every body
[21:37] <ALAYA> I'm « Zied ALAYA » from Tunisia.
[21:37] <ALAYA> I'm a teacher: C and C++ programming courses and some time Linux courses.
[21:37] <ALAYA> I really like Ubuntu and most students in the school know that.
[21:37] <ALAYA> I m an active member in the Tunisian LoCo team.
[21:37] <ALAYA> I partcipate in most discussion in our mailing list and in ubuntu-tn events when I have time.
[21:37] <ALAYA> I'm a member in the Management Committee of our LoCo team (secretary group). My job is to preparate our irc meetings and propably the Management Committee election for this month.
[21:37] <sakjur> back
[21:37] <Seveas> the wiki is being a pain again today
[21:38] <ALAYA> Seveas: I wanna to thx hanen for that
[21:38] <ALAYA> she give me an example
[21:39] <Seveas> ALAYA, well, if it's not loading I can't see it :)
[21:39] <zaafouri> I'm ubuntu member & I support membership of ALAYA
[21:39] <Seveas> zaafouri, tell us something about his contribution to the team
[21:39] <zaafouri> he help us for many events
[21:40] <zaafouri> ALAYA is an active member in our locoteam
[21:40] <ALAYA> Seveas: i can give you the old one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Zied_ALAYA/old_main but it's not well finished
[21:40] <nizarus> hello, im the tunisian loco team contact and i support ALAYA membership
[21:41] <zaafouri> ALAYA contribute with us to extend ubuntu community in univesities too
[21:41] <Seveas> ALAYA, that's not it, firefox just keeps telling me it's loading the page :S
[21:41] <Seveas> can anyone pastebin a copy of the contents for me?
[21:41] <nizarus> Seveas, i'm ok with the wiki page
[21:41] <sakjur> certainly
[21:41] <Seveas> ooh, wiki is behind apache mod_proxy :)
[21:42] <Seveas> I just got a shiny error
[21:42] <sakjur> http://pastebin.com/db8cf115
[21:42] <forumsmatthew> There is a lot on the wiki page that shows solid and consistent involvement in the loco and with other events. The testimonials are good. I'm happy to +1.
[21:42] <nizarus> Seveas, http://paste.ubuntu.com/186929/
[21:42] <phanatic> based on the wikipage, the contributions and the cheers here, i'd give a +1
[21:42] <forumsmatthew> Seveas, weird, the wiki is loading great for me
[21:42] <Seveas> yeah, working for me again too now. Flaky crappy Ubuntu :-)
[21:42] <ALAYA> Seveas: http://paste.ubuntu.com/186931/
[21:43] <ALAYA> thx forumsmatthew
[21:43] <ALAYA> thx phanatic
[21:43] <Seveas> +1 from me
[21:43] <ALAYA> thx Seveas
[21:43]  * ALAYA is counting :)
[21:43] <Seveas> I count 3
[21:44] <Seveas> popey, markvandenborre, stgraber ?
[21:44] <stgraber> +1 for loco involvement
[21:44] <zaafouri> ALAYA, congrats "مبروك" =)))
[21:44] <markvandenborre> +1
[21:44] <MaWaLe> congrats ALAYA
[21:44] <bcurtiswx> congrats ALAYA!
[21:44] <ALAYA> thx stgraber
[21:44] <ALAYA> thx markvandenborre
[21:44] <Seveas> one to go
[21:44] <popey> Agreed, +1 :)
[21:44] <nizarus> ALAYA, mabrouk
[21:44] <forumsmatthew> marhaba wa mabrook!
[21:44] <Seveas> :)
[21:45] <ALAYA> thx every body thx a lot :)
[21:45] <Seveas> congrats!
[21:45] <Seveas> sakjur, you're next
[21:45] <hanen> mabroul ALAYA :)
[21:45] <ALAYA> thx popey zaafouri nizarus
[21:45] <Seveas> hmm
[21:45] <hanen> mabrouk*
[21:45] <sakjur> Hello, my name's Emil Tullstedt and I'm 15 years old
[21:45] <sakjur> I'm a student at Kunskapsskolan Västerås in Sweden and I've used Ubuntu since March 2007.
[21:45] <sakjur> I'm a member of the Server Team and have a focus on deploying Ubuntu in production enviorments ( http://duds.asci.se/coconut ).
[21:45] <sakjur> This week I'm working at http://www.truesec.com/en/ as a part of my education.
[21:45] <ALAYA> thx hanen
[21:45] <sakjur> (Congrats ALAYA)
[21:45] <Seveas> As with Frippe I'm going for an immediate -1 due to lack of preparation. Wiki contains practically no info
[21:45]  * ALAYA thx sakjur
[21:46] <Seveas> please read http://blogs.ubuntu-nl.org/dennis/2009/05/13/how-to-become-an-ubuntu-member-the-easy-way/ -- it is vital that you prepare for these meetings
[21:46] <forumsmatthew> I agree. Please come back when you are better prepared.
[21:46] <forumsmatthew> -1
[21:46] <sakjur> Seveas: I didn't have enough time to prepare so I'll prepare the wikipage and come back next month :D
[21:47] <markvandenborre> perfect
[21:47] <sakjur> I thought that was the way it was going to be
[21:47] <popey> -1 also
[21:47] <stgraber> not enough information on the wiki page, please complete it, get some testimonials and come back. -1
[21:47] <markvandenborre> sakjur: if you thought so, it might have been a good idea to put it off to next month yourself too
[21:48] <Seveas> MaWaLe, you're up next
[21:48] <MaWaLe> I'm Wajih from tunisia
[21:48] <sakjur> markvandenborre: well, i thought i was going to make it this week...
[21:48] <sakjur> xD
[21:48] <MaWaLe> I'm an IT manager in a governmental Organism and SENIOR consultant.
[21:48] <MaWaLe> I am working hardly to promote and maintain Ubuntu in Tunisia.
[21:48] <MaWaLe> Member of the Web&Tech sub-team which is in charge of developping, administrating the official site and forum of the community.
[21:48] <MaWaLe> In this team I actively participate in configuring and maintaining the server and in the redaction of the content of the site and its implementation.
[21:48] <MaWaLe> At the 4th meeting of the Management committee, I was elected as a coordinator of the Redaction Group. Since then i supervised all the LoCo Team events and also particpated in most of them with presentations, animations and intall-parties. In all the event, I promote Ubuntu and hold a conference about Ubuntu and his use.
[21:48] <MaWaLe> The ENIS EVENT 9.01 leads to migrate over than 1000 PCs and Laptops to Ubuntu and to provide assistance to the technical staff of the Tunisian National School of Engineers.
[21:48] <MaWaLe> I actively participate in the other activities of the tunisian team.
[21:48] <MaWaLe> I actively participate to promote Ubuntu in the professional sector.
[21:48] <MaWaLe> I try to be present as more as possible in ubuntu-tn irc channel and on the ML, to assist or help Tunisian users
[21:48] <MaWaLe> I contribute in writing documents and some WiKi pages
[21:48] <MaWaLe> I collaborate closely to the creation of the Drafting Team which is a sub-team of the redaction group. I also participate to draft the guidelines of the job description and the rules specifications of this sub-team.
[21:49] <zaafouri> Me again, I am here to FULLY support the membership of MaWaLe
[21:49] <Seveas> MaWaLe, please, a *short* intro
[21:49] <nizarus> hello again, im the tunisian loco team contact and i support MaWaLe membership
[21:49] <zaafouri> Mawale is leader in our Locoteam. He help many people and he answer to many request on ML and IRC. Mawale is an UBUNTERO and he's the example to follow.
[21:49] <Seveas> MaWaLe, I heard that you went to the AsiaOceania board a few times before and were not approved but refered to the CC. Why did you decide to come to us instead?
[21:50] <Mez> what's the current meeting?
[21:50] <MaWaLe> i decide to come here after consulting with members of my community
[21:50] <stgraber> Mez: EMEA membership board
[21:50] <MaWaLe> because my membership takes too long in the other RB
[21:50] <Mez> stgraber: ah, ok, it's not on the fridge! :D I was here ready for CC meeting :D
[21:50] <MaWaLe> so i wait until some times and then i'm back for the first meeting
[21:50] <nizarus> Seveas, we got an advice to be here ase we are close to the EMEA borad
[21:50] <MaWaLe> i'm also marked on the Asian Board and i applied for the first one
[21:51] <Seveas> well, if other boards have not accepted you as member but refered you to the CC, I'm very hesitant to give a +1
[21:51]  * ALAYA is supporting MaWaLe, he is the most active member in our LoCo team events (more then 10 events): his the men
[21:51] <Seveas> What was the reason your application was not accepted at the time?
[21:51] <zaafouri> Seveas, MaWaLe is a best tunisian ubuntu member and really he help ubuntu to grow in Tunisia
[21:52] <MaWaLe> Seveas : because we had a former member who is accusing some members of our community with unfounded allegations
[21:52] <Seveas> zaafouri, ALAYA: plaease. We know your opinions but I am trying to get some questions answered
[21:52] <MaWaLe> there was a meeting with popey where our loco contact explain the misunderstanding and we think that the problem is closed
[21:53] <popey> Yes, the loco council got involved
[21:53] <forumsmatthew> popey, comments?
[21:53] <popey> There should be no further issues regarding that conflict
[21:53] <popey> it was dealt with semi-amicably on both sides as I recall
[21:54] <Seveas> popey, ok. That was the only thing holding me back. The wikipage looks good so +1 from me
[21:54] <popey> I dont think it has a bearing on ALAYAs membership application which should stand on its own merit
[21:54] <forumsmatthew> thanks, popey
[21:54] <popey> np
[21:54] <Seveas> popey, MaWaLe's application :)
[21:54] <popey> duh
[21:54] <forumsmatthew> After that, I'm +1 for the wiki and the testimonials
[21:54] <popey> sorry,
[21:54] <popey> yes, +1 from me also
[21:54] <stgraber> +1
[21:55] <phanatic> +1
[21:55] <zaafouri> MaWaLe, congrats " alf مبروك" =)))
[21:55] <MaWaLe> thanks all
[21:55] <nizarus> alf alf mabrouk MaWaLe
[21:55] <bcurtiswx> congrats MaWaLe!
[21:55] <ALAYA> congrats MaWaLe :)
[21:55] <Seveas> markvandenborre, ?
[21:55] <zaafouri> =)
[21:55] <MaWaLe> hope to continue with my team :)
[21:56] <markvandenborre> +1
[21:56] <MaWaLe> and hope to be a MOTU someday :)
[21:56] <popey> good luck MaWaLe, keep up the good work!
[21:56] <Seveas> good, that's +6
[21:56] <Seveas> welcome aboard
[21:56] <forumsmatthew> mabrook
[21:56] <zaafouri> MaWaLe, together forever
[21:56] <stgraber> I think we have to leave the room for the CC
[21:56] <nizarus> gooooooooooooood job MaWaLe
[21:56] <hanen> alf marbouk MaWaLe wel 3al9ba lma aham sidi :)
[21:56] <Seveas> let's move to #ubuntu-membership-board emea for the last 3 candidates
[21:56] <Seveas> the CC will want this room in a minute
[21:56] <Seveas>  #ubuntu-membership-board-emea that is
[21:56] <markvandenborre> ok
[21:57] <stgraber> I also have to leave, sorry for that but i stop working in 4 minutes.
[21:57] <jono> hi all
[21:57] <stgraber> (and have to pack all my stuff ;))
[21:57] <Mez> stgraber: overtime ? :P
[21:57]  * Mez waves @ jono
[21:57] <jono> hey Mean-Machine
[21:57] <jono> Mez,
[21:57] <stgraber> Mez: not that easy (unless I want to walk back home ;))
[21:57] <forumsmatthew> welcome, CC. We will give you the room now.
[21:57] <forumsmatthew> :)
[21:57] <Mez> stgraber: I know that feeling
[21:58] <Mean-Machine> jono, hiya
[21:58] <jono> hey elmo
[21:58] <MaWaLe> popey : special thank for you for the clarification
[21:58] <nhandler> Hi jono and elmo
[21:58] <nhandler> Before the CC meeting starts, elmo, do you have any more info on people.ubuntu.com ?
[21:59]  * mako waves
[21:59] <Mez> nhandler: people.ubuntu.com = canonical employees only, IIRC
[21:59] <elmo> nhandler: we're making slow progress; running into fun corner cases around renaming accounts in LP, quotas inside of chroots, libnss-db and multiple dbs etc.
[21:59] <elmo> Mez: no, that's being fixed
[21:59] <Mez> elmo: ah, cool...
[21:59]  * Mez just uses people.debian.org - more exclusive :D
[21:59] <elmo> nhandler: it's getting there.  much more slowly than I would hope, but it is progressing
[21:59] <nhandler> Sounds lots of fun elmo
[22:00] <jono> heya mako dholbach
[22:00] <Mez> anyone have a link for the CC agenda?
[22:00] <Technoviking> hi
[22:00] <dholbach> Mez: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[22:00] <dholbach> hi mdke, hi Technoviking
[22:01] <Mez> dholbach: cheers :D
[22:01] <mdke> hi everyone
[22:01] <Technoviking> only got an half an hour, sorry about that
[22:01] <jono> hi mdke
[22:01] <mdke> hi dholbach, jono
[22:01]  * nhandler waves to everyone
[22:01] <Mez> hmm, agenda is asking for 23:00 UTC? isn't that when the meeting ends?
[22:02] <popey> it's 21:00 UTC now
[22:02] <popey> ish
[22:02] <Mez> yeah, but look at the first 2 agenda items...
[22:02] <Mez> BodhiZazen & Learning Team - June 2nd - 23:00 UTC thank you =)
[22:03] <Vantrax> lol
[22:03] <bodhi_zazen> oops :)
[22:03] <elmo> well, I'm afraid I can't make it to a 23:00 meeting... :-P
[22:03] <Mez> bodhi_zazen: ah, you're hear now ?
[22:03] <Mez> here *
[22:03] <bodhi_zazen> yes Mez
[22:03] <sladen> bodhi_zazen: and is 21:00 UTC (now) going to be okay for you?
[22:04] <bodhi_zazen> yes, thank you
[22:04] <bodhi_zazen> sorry I appear to be UTC impaired
[22:04] <Mez> bodhi_zazen: date --utc :D
[22:05] <bodhi_zazen> I would like to introduce the Ubuntu Community Learning Project
[22:05] <bodhi_zazen> =)
[22:05] <mdke> I'm having some initial signs of internet issues, so fingers crossed
[22:05] <jono> so is the meeting happening now?
[22:05] <bodhi_zazen> when the CC is ready
[22:05] <jono> mdke, pull the yoghurt put and string a little tighter, my friend :)
[22:05] <nhandler> Looks like it jono
[22:05] <Mez> mdke: I should switch off the DDoS then ?
[22:05] <Mez> :P
[22:05] <mdke> heh
[22:05] <mdke> do we have sabdfl or mako?
[22:05] <elmo> mako's here
[22:06] <elmo> sabdfl's client here, but I don't think he is
[22:06] <elmo> did anyone remind clan?
[22:06] <jono> elmo, not sure
[22:06] <mako> yep, i'm here
[22:06] <jono> it's in his calendar
[22:07] <dholbach> I talked to clan today
[22:07] <elmo> his laptop's on his desk
[22:08] <elmo> so I think we can assume he won't be here; but I'll SMS him anyway
[22:08] <sladen> echo 'CC @ #ubuntu-meeting' | sms +44...388
[22:08] <Mez> sladen: E_INVALID_NUMBER for me :D
[22:09] <Mez> (but then I can't expect my script to work properly!)
[22:09] <elmo> done - shall we carry on in the meantime?
[22:10]  * cprofitt nods
[22:11] <sladen> #startmeeting
[22:11] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:11. The chair is sladen.
[22:11] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[22:12] <elmo> ok, bodhi_zazen , I guess you're up?
[22:12] <bodhi_zazen> Thank you
[22:12] <mdke> thanks elmo
[22:12] <bodhi_zazen> We would like to introduce a new project to the community
[22:12] <bodhi_zazen> The UCLP
[22:12] <sladen> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Community Learning Project
[22:12] <bodhi_zazen> Home page ; https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
[22:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Community Learning Project
[22:13] <cprofitt> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/
[22:13] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/
[22:13] <bodhi_zazen> The goals of the project are to provide and educational venue for people to teach and learn Ubuntu
[22:13] <bodhi_zazen> Outlined here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/StrategyDocument
[22:13] <cprofitt> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/StrategyDocument
[22:13] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/StrategyDocument
[22:14] <bodhi_zazen> We have established a server here : http://learn.ufbt.net/
[22:14] <cprofitt> [LINK] http://learn.ufbt.net/
[22:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://learn.ufbt.net/
[22:15] <bodhi_zazen> The idea seems to have taken off a bit faster then I had anticipated and we are collaborating with many of the other community groups / projects
[22:15] <dholbach> bodhi_zazen: maybe you can explain a bit what the members of your team are doing at the moment and what kind of help you require
[22:16] <bodhi_zazen> We are just starting so we are in the process of establishing the team structure
[22:16] <dholbach> bodhi_zazen: what will your team members be working on soon?
[22:16] <bodhi_zazen> working though administrative issues 9establishing and testing the server, licensing) etc
[22:17] <Vantrax> If i can jump in bodhi?
[22:17] <bodhi_zazen> pleas Vantrax
[22:18] <Vantrax> Shortly after this we will be requesting feedback from the community on what they would like to see covered to augment the list of topics that have been building off the bottom of the wiki page linked earlier
[22:18] <Vantrax> we are busy getting a propper theme together for our moodle installation in the ubuntu colors and style.
[22:18] <dholbach> so once you got feedback you'll be writing the content for proper courses based on the feedback?
[22:18] <Vantrax> correct
[22:19] <bodhi_zazen> The team is fairly large and we are colaborating with other efforts, such as development
[22:19] <Vantrax> we have already had feedback from many different teams including doc, bugsquad, motu, edubuntu etc
[22:19] <cprofitt> dholbach, there are some courses which will not be based on feedback... the courses on how to use Moodle to deliver content for example.
[22:19] <dholbach> does that also mean you'll improve documentation that we already have?
[22:19] <bodhi_zazen> We have proposed content listed here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
[22:20] <Vantrax> they will also be helping to develop courses, supplying the material to build it with to start, then helping develop as time goes on
[22:20] <bodhi_zazen> on the links , such as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
[22:20] <nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
[22:20] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
[22:20] <Vantrax> We plan to release new version for each LTS, with minor updates noted for changes in other releases
[22:20] <bodhi_zazen> We will be using available content, such as wiki, forums posts, etc as much as possible
[22:21] <dholbach> great
[22:21] <bodhi_zazen> and we will contribute to content as well
[22:21] <cprofitt> dholbach, the 'vision' that we have is to use and improve existing material as a 'brick and mortar' classroom would use a book. The beauty of the on-line world is that it will result in 'review' of existing material and hopefully improvements to it
[22:21] <Vantrax> Canonical has allowed us to use the Desktop Training course materials as well
[22:21] <bodhi_zazen> but out intent is also to present the content, not merely write it
[22:21] <bodhi_zazen> So, for example, the wiki would be the textbook
[22:21] <dholbach> what kind of help do you need?
[22:21] <bodhi_zazen> we are providing a classroom and teachers
[22:21] <dholbach> mdke: did the learning team get in touch with the doc team already?
[22:21] <elmo> the CC-BY-NC-SA thing worries me a little bit; could someone explain the rationale behind that?
[22:22] <mdke> yes
[22:22] <cprofitt> The courses would organize the existing material, created a 'lesson plan' (rubric) for students to follow so that their learning is 'guided'
[22:22] <Vantrax> at the moment a mailing list at list.ubuntu.com would be nice:P
[22:22] <bodhi_zazen> We could use some help with liscencing
[22:22] <cprofitt> elmo, we are intending CC-BY-SA
[22:22] <cprofitt> not NC
[22:22] <Vantrax> elmo most of the materials, including canonical ones are release under that license
[22:22] <bodhi_zazen> and in time I was hoping we could use learn.ubuntu.com
[22:22] <mdke> I had quite a long chat with bodhi_zazen in #ubuntu-doc a few weeks back, and raised some concerns about how to handle potential overlap with the documentation team
[22:22] <cprofitt> but we are still working through the details of that with some legal folks
[22:22] <Vantrax> there is some items that will be relesed under that license regardless because of that issue
[22:22] <cprofitt> +1 Vantrax
[22:23] <elmo> cprofitt: ok, I thought the wiki page said NC
[22:23] <cprofitt> elmo, we are still working through that... our 'desire' is to drop the NC
[22:23] <elmo> cprofitt: ok
[22:23] <Vantrax> It does say both elmo, because we have to use both as some source materials are NC, such as the Desktop Training course
[22:23] <elmo> +, great
[22:23] <mdke> to be honest, I have been quite concerned about that since the idea was announced. I think that on the basis of the wish to reuse and collaborate in terms of content with other teams, they have the right approach
[22:23] <bodhi_zazen> We would like to coordinate efforts within the community, so establising contacts with interested parties in the Ubuntu community would also help
[22:23] <pleia2> mdke: we've been working with teams (we have a rep from the doc team) so we don't duplicate effort
[22:24] <sladen> cprofitt: it would be highly-preference, -NC is vague, causes issues and effectively makes things non-free
[22:24] <mdke> pleia2: right, that's what I mean
[22:24] <Vantrax> mdke DougieRichardson has offered to help with working with the doc team
[22:24] <cprofitt> sladen, agreed
[22:24] <mdke> Vantrax: that's great
[22:24] <mdke> I'm happy with the way the project is shaping up on the basis of my conversations with bodhi_zazen and what has been said this evening
[22:25] <cprofitt> mdke, the real difference is we are not looking to 'create' documentation in places it exists. We want to make courses that guide people through the process of learning.
[22:25] <Vantrax> So, as you may or may not know, we have already had approval from Canonical to use  the ubuntu name as well as learn.ubuntu.com
[22:25] <bodhi_zazen> thank you mdke =)
[22:25] <elmo> Vantrax: hmm
[22:25] <elmo> Vantrax: I'd like to talk to someone about that, without my CC hat on
[22:25] <mdke> I think focus on collaboration and avoiding overlap should be a key future goal, and something to keep an eye on
[22:25] <Mez> elmo: which hat will you be wearing? your pimp hat?
[22:25] <elmo> Vantrax: (not in 'not doing it' sense, more in  a 'logistics of how we do it' sense)
[22:26] <cprofitt> mdke, if there are 'holes' in the documentation we would want to work with the doc team to create it... if there are inaccuracies we would want to work with the doc team to correct them... but I the vision is to have courses that guide users on where all the knowledge is.
[22:26] <bodhi_zazen> elmo: I could use help with logistics
[22:26] <Vantrax> elmo, we have been working with dinda so far
[22:26] <mdke> the licensing obviously raises big issues, as the documentation is licensed under cc-by-sa, and the training project material is -nc, so it will be difficult for the project to use those materials in the same place
[22:26] <sladen> elmo: is the non-CC hat concern, about naming, or server issues, or domain names, or something else?
[22:27] <cprofitt> mdke, the license we want to use on courses is cc-by-sa - but if material references included the -nc we need to note that
[22:27] <Vantrax> We have had a couple meetings with Billy and Belinda to sort things out early on
[22:27] <elmo> sladen: hosting issues
[22:27] <cprofitt> there should not be any conflict of license
[22:27] <Vantrax> elmo, we have our own dedicated server
[22:27] <Vantrax> we just need a subdomain redirection
[22:27] <bodhi_zazen> elmo: I have provided a server + hosting
[22:27] <Mez> mdke: isn't BY-SA non-free ?
[22:27] <bodhi_zazen> I have an IP
[22:27] <elmo> Mez: no
[22:27] <mdke> cprofitt: you can't use material with incompatible licenses in a single document, but no doubt you can find a way around it
[22:27] <mako> Mez: no
[22:27] <bodhi_zazen> need to direct learn.ubuntu.com to my server
[22:27] <Vantrax> Mex BY-SA is the free license
[22:28] <bodhi_zazen> and discuss if we wish to make it ssl (https) as is the wiki
[22:28] <cprofitt> mdke we would not use the -NC material in a single document...
[22:28] <mako> Vantrax: BY-SA, BY, and now CC0
[22:28] <pleia2> luckily we've had greg-g around to help us out with licensing, and it will continue to be something we pay close attention to
[22:28] <Mez> elmo/mdke: http://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses#CreativeCommonsAttributionLicense.28CC-by.29.2Cv1.0
[22:28] <mdke> the team wiki still remains unlicensed
[22:28]  * greg-g waves
[22:28] <cprofitt> again... the courses reference the material but do not use it.
[22:28] <mdke> Mez: this isn't Debian
[22:28] <greg-g> Mez: see http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses
[22:28] <mdke> so we will probably have to address the licensing of the team wiki at some stage :) yay!
[22:28] <cprofitt> yes, greg-g is helping us through all that.
[22:28] <Vantrax> We have been having headaches over the licencing already
[22:29] <elmo> so, Mark is having some "key issues"
[22:29] <elmo> he should be with us shortly
[22:29] <Mez> mdke: I tought they were the definition of "free" though
[22:29] <elmo> Mez: it's free for Ubuntu
[22:29] <mdke> nope
[22:29] <greg-g> Mez: also, the 3.0 version of the CC licenses fix those concerns, see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Version_3
[22:29] <elmo> Mez: we differ from Debian on some points about what constitutes 'free', especially around documentation, images, firmware and the like
[22:29] <mdke> I don't think we need to question cc-by-sa, most Ubuntu documentation and artwork uses it
[22:29] <elmo> what mdke said
[22:29] <cprofitt> mdke, think of the courses in the same manner a high school course is taught... the book is copyright material, but the course need not be.
[22:30] <mako> greg-g: i was just going to paste that :)
[22:30] <greg-g> mako: :)
[22:30] <cprofitt> +1 greg-g
[22:30] <elmo> vantrax/bodhi: I'll take up the learn.u.c thing out of band, it's really not a CC concern, or a blocker
[22:30] <Technoviking> Sorry I have to go folk, have a "real life" meeting I could not schedule. I think there is still a quoram.
[22:30] <dholbach> Vantrax, cprofitt, bodhi_zazen: what kind of help do you need from the CC?
[22:30] <bodhi_zazen> OK elmo
[22:30] <elmo> Technoviking: thanks
[22:30] <dholbach> Technoviking: thanks for attending
[22:30] <mdke> cprofitt: well, you need to make sure you have permission to reuse material, that's all it is
[22:30] <bodhi_zazen> dholbach: at the moment we can not think of any direct assistance we need
[22:30] <cprofitt> dholbach, we are looking for approval from the community to continue... to make sure that we have your blessing...
[22:30] <mdke> and it's a good excuse to resolve the issue of the licensing of wiki.ubuntu.com
[22:30] <Vantrax> at the moment its just about letting you know what we are up to, and getting some sort of approval
[22:30]  * cprofitt smiles
[22:31] <mdke> which remains unresolved
[22:31] <bodhi_zazen> we merely wanted to bring the project to your attention
[22:31] <Technoviking> I will review the logs and give any feedback if needed:)
[22:31] <cprofitt> we are kind of asking to marry your daughter by using the Ubuntu name...
[22:31] <bodhi_zazen> and give you all some contact information
[22:31] <pleia2> and we need a mailing ilst :)
[22:31] <Vantrax> also we would like a list at lists.ubuntu.com too
[22:31] <mdke> have you applied for one?
[22:31] <sladen> [ACTION] elmo to take up learn.ubuntu.com thing out of band
[22:31] <Vantrax> goest to rt@ubuntu right?
[22:31] <MootBot> ACTION received:  elmo to take up learn.ubuntu.com thing out of band
[22:31] <elmo> wow, that bot thing is nosiy
[22:31] <elmo> Vantrax: right
[22:32] <Mez>  elmo /mode #ubuntu-meeting +q MootBot
[22:32] <Mez> :P
[22:32] <bodhi_zazen> They should call it interruptbot :)
[22:32] <Vantrax> sent an email asking about it on the 30th of April
[22:32] <Vantrax> to rt, cced to belinda lopez
[22:33] <mdke> I think strictly speaking it's mailman@lists.ubuntu.com
[22:33] <Vantrax> i sent mail to there before that
[22:33] <mdke> that way it goes to jorge for approval, is that correct elmo?
[22:33] <Vantrax> then asked belinda, and she said try rt
[22:33] <elmo> Vantrax: I'll dig up the email and find out where it is the pipeline
[22:33] <Vantrax> thank you elmo
[22:33] <mdke> ok, great
[22:33] <jono> sorry, network troubles here
[22:34] <mdke> thanks guys for turning up here with the project, I'm very pleased to see that happening and I think more teams should do it
[22:34] <Mez> jono: screen + irssi :D
[22:34] <mdke> you definitely did the right thing
[22:34] <sladen> must say, it has a very impressive list of recognisable names involved, so I hope it successfully goes places
[22:34] <Vantrax> We are hoping more teams will, and we hope that this setup will become a platform for other teams to use to run training
[22:34] <cprofitt> mdke, you are most welcome... if we want it to grow we must educate it
[22:35] <bodhi_zazen> mdke: Thank you for the wiki =)
[22:35] <jono> Mez, :)
[22:35] <bodhi_zazen> we certainly could not educate without it
[22:35] <mdke> well, you can thank the whole community for that :) and elmo, ultimately, as with all things :D
[22:35] <sladen> the secret is not to educate people, but inspire them to investigate and experiment for themselves...
[22:35] <mdke> ok, shall we move on?
[22:35] <sladen> [TOPIC] The Ubuntu Forums Beginner's Team
[22:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  The Ubuntu Forums Beginner's Team
[22:36] <bodhi_zazen> On a similar note ...
[22:36] <bodhi_zazen> The NUN has disbanded
[22:36] <bodhi_zazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu#New%20User%20Network
[22:36] <sladen> NUN == New Users Network
[22:36] <dholbach> do we have anybody from the new users network here?
[22:36] <mdke> Mez was involved with it, iirc
[22:36] <Mez> yep, that's why I'm here.
[22:36] <bodhi_zazen> The Ubuntu Fourms Beginners Team would like to take on their role with new users =)
[22:36] <dholbach> Mez: what's the state of things there?
[22:37] <Mez> myself and nalioth formed the NUN. As far as I'm aware, the project is now defunct. Nothing's happened with it for a long time - apart from some arguing over -classroom
[22:37] <bodhi_zazen> Or at least it is my understanding the NUN is no longer active ?
[22:37] <pleia2> classroom is now working pretty closely with UFBT (rather than NUN)
[22:38] <Mez> pleia2: it changed hands a few times
[22:38] <pleia2> Mez: yep, classroom is in my court these days
[22:38] <dholbach> JanC: still something going on in the NuN project?
[22:38]  * dholbach just checked https://launchpad.net/~newusernetwork/+members to see who's still in the team
[22:38] <Mez> I'm personally happy for the NUN to be disbanded, though I would suggest that the Forums Beginner team maybe make some move towards something outside of the forums
[22:39] <bodhi_zazen> So, if the NUN is no longer functioning the UFBT would like to take it's place here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
[22:39] <Vantrax> Mez the learing project just reviewed came out of the UFBT
[22:39] <Vantrax> They also have Launchpad and IRC teams
[22:39] <Mez> dholbach: JanC is just a member IIRC.
[22:39] <elmo> bodhi_zazen: do you have a link to UFBT?
[22:39] <bodhi_zazen> Mez: The UFBT is fairly active outsdie the fourms
[22:39] <Mez> Vantrax: yes, but NuN was also trying to focus on stuff like an IRC presence, etc etc
[22:39] <nhandler> [LINK] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam
[22:39] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam
[22:39] <bodhi_zazen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Team/FocusGroups/Launchpad
[22:40] <dholbach> Mez: you said "move outside of the forums" - how do you mean that?
[22:40] <mdke> Vantrax: he's not saying that the UFBT isn't doing awesome work; it clearly is. The point is that if a project is spawning some community wide projects, then maybe it should think about a rebrand as a community wide project itself.
[22:40] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: That link is outdated
[22:40] <mdke> just to make it clear that the projects are open to those outside of the forums as well as inside
[22:40] <Mez> dholbach: I'm not aware of the UFBT's presence, but limiting a "new user" support group to one medium is fruitless, IMHO
[22:40] <nhandler> mdke: We have been discussing the possibility of renaming the team for a while now
[22:40] <bodhi_zazen> The UFBT has members who contribute to wiki, MOTU, irc, to name a few
[22:40] <sabdfl1> hello all. that was an adventure, sorry for being late
[22:40] <bodhi_zazen> and we have been working with classroom :)
[22:41]  * nhandler waves to sabdfl1
[22:41] <Vantrax> There was a push to rename recently, we might revisit that again
[22:41] <mdke> I've also come across the UFBT doing good work in the docteam
[22:41] <pleia2> yeah, they've done some great classroom sessions over the past few months :)
[22:41] <JanC> FWIW: I try to be helpful to new users, but don't want to pull a complete project about that...
[22:41] <mdke> so I think there is a clear influence outside the forums, along with the Learning project and the Classroom work
[22:41] <Mez> bodhi_zazen: as I said, I'm not aware of what it does, but the "F" makes me think of it as forums ... a name change maybe?
[22:41] <mdke> so maybe it's time to talk about a rebrand :)
[22:41] <mdke> evening sabdfl1
[22:41] <Mez> mdke: I agree, my research purely consisted of reading the name :D
[22:42] <bodhi_zazen> Mez: we have discussed a name change before
[22:42]  * Vantrax waves to the big cheese
[22:42] <Joeb454> Mez: I think ufbt keeps the roots of the team though
[22:42] <bodhi_zazen> but that involved changing wiki pages, mailing lists, LP pages, etc
[22:42] <Joeb454> ubt doesn't roll off the tongue as well ;)
[22:42] <bodhi_zazen> and well the team likes the forums :)
[22:42] <dholbach> do you think it'd make sense to make a list of all the documentation that needs changing, get in touch with former members of the NUN and see if some of them would like to help out outside of the UBFT?
[22:42] <dholbach> maybe even ask on ubuntu-users@?
[22:43] <Mez> dholbach: I'm quite happy with that ... and if someone wants to delete the -nun mailing list :d it'll make my inbox nicer
[22:43] <dholbach> then see what the feedback is like and then change the documentation / name?
[22:43] <ibuclaw> Joeb454, or perhaps just a generic sounding "BT" ?
[22:43] <mdke> I think the ubuntu beginners team would sound great
[22:43] <bodhi_zazen> Well we should change to ET
[22:43] <Joeb454> ibuclaw: I'm sure as most seem to know, BT is a british ISP
[22:43] <Vantrax> me too
[22:43] <Mez> mdke +1
[22:43] <bodhi_zazen> Education Team
[22:43] <mdke> i understand it' sometimes difficult to make changes to one's roots like that
[22:43] <sladen> [IDED] Forums' New User Network disbanded;  delete -nun mailing list
[22:43] <dholbach> it'd just be nice to pull all the threads together
[22:43] <sladen> [IDEA] Forums' New User Network disbanded;  delete -nun mailing list
[22:43] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Forums' New User Network disbanded;  delete -nun mailing list
[22:44] <Mez> Joeb454: not just an ISP
[22:44] <mdke> so I'd just suggest maybe that the team discusses it in the future, nothing decided now
[22:44] <Mez> +1 for the idea :D
[22:44] <Joeb454> Mez: well yeah, I know :P
[22:44] <Mez> +1 for less administrivia mails :D
[22:44] <mdke> anyway, +1 for the agenda item, and for dholbach' suggestion about how to effect it
[22:44] <bodhi_zazen> I will bring the question of a name change to the UFBT again ;)
[22:45] <Vantrax> We have a meeting after this one
[22:45] <sabdfl> great to see such positive work around new users; the onramp to Ubuntu just got smoother and broader
[22:45] <mdke> are you guys happy to follow dholbach' suggested process?
[22:45] <bodhi_zazen> any suggestions on a name change from the CC ?
[22:45] <Mez> [ACTION] Discuss UBFT rename to UBT
[22:45] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: mdke said he liked Ubuntu Beginners Team
[22:45] <mdke> bodhi_zazen: mine is Ubuntu Beginners Team
[22:45] <Mez> ah, not chair :D
[22:45] <dholbach> I'd strongly encourage to reach out and define the scope before naming, renaming and replacing
[22:46] <mdke> +1
[22:46] <JanC> BTW: I'm happy to moderate any mailing list related to new users if other people don't like to do it
[22:46] <sladen> [ACTION] Discuss UBFT rename to UBT
[22:46] <bodhi_zazen> +1 dholbach
[22:46] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Discuss UBFT rename to UBT
[22:46] <bodhi_zazen> that is why I suggest ET
[22:46] <bodhi_zazen> Education Team ?
[22:46] <Joeb454> at the end of the day, I'm not fussed. However UBT encompasses the fact that the team is no longer forums only
[22:46] <nhandler> JanC: The BT mailing list is currently on LP and does not really get a lot of mail to moderate. But thanks for the offer
[22:46] <mdke> bodhi_zazen: the renaming issue is separate to the question of whether the NUN can be replaced
[22:46] <Joeb454> though I still like UFBT, perhaps that's just familiarity though...
[22:46] <bodhi_zazen> yes
[22:46] <mdke> bodhi_zazen: if you can follow dholbach's suggestion for the latter, that would be a greaet start
[22:46] <bodhi_zazen> indeed
[22:46] <Mez> JanC: wanna take over -backports ML admin ? :P
[22:46] <sladen> Ubuntu Wecome Team?
[22:47] <Vantrax> education is already largely wrapped up by edubuntu, hence why its the ubuntu community learning project
[22:47] <mdke> bodhi_zazen: then you can think about the name of your team in due course, without rushing it
[22:47] <sladen> *Welcome*
[22:47] <bodhi_zazen> Well, the team is not just about beginners either :)
[22:47]  * cprofitt waves to sabdfl1 
[22:47] <Vantrax> not wtih st33meds python training
[22:47] <JanC> Mez: depends on what that means...
[22:48] <ibuclaw> Vantrax++
[22:48] <bodhi_zazen> OK, well the UFBT, as we now call ourselves, would like to take the place of the NUN ;)
[22:48] <Mez> JanC: about 4000 in moderation ?
[22:48] <mdke> ok, so the real action point for you is to follow up dholbach' suggestion as follows:
[22:48] <ibuclaw> Vantrax, also, I like to see ourselves as a team who helps push people who want to contribute to Ubuntu in the right direction too.
[22:48] <mdke> 22:42:44 < dholbach> do you think it'd make sense to make a list of all the documentation that needs changing, get in touch with former members of the NUN and see if  some of them would like to help out outside of the UBFT?
[22:48] <bodhi_zazen> I will discuss name change with forums staff and the UFBT , see what we come up with
[22:48] <mdke> is that ok in terms of resolving the agenda item?
[22:49]  * Joeb454 is interested on what sabdfl thinks of this too, as the team has the potential of becoming very large
[22:49] <Mez> mdke: sounds good to me :D
[22:49] <JanC> Mez: if it's spam, that's no problem, if I have to do technical approvals, that's omething entirely else ;)
[22:49] <Mez> Joeb454: I think sabdfl probably thinks "Error: Connection reset by peer"
[22:49] <sabdfl> Joeb454: large is OK, if it's well run, and this group seems energetic and directed
[22:49] <Joeb454> Mez: I know, and here's me thinking that be* are a good ISP
[22:49] <bodhi_zazen> mdke: that works for me, is there a way of getting a lilsting of the documentation that need updating easily ?
[22:50] <sabdfl> Mez: first i left my keys at the office, then i hit "restart now" after an upgrade
[22:50]  * cprofitt smiles at sabdfl we are well run... bodhi_zazen deserves credit for that
[22:50] <sabdfl> sigh, not my night
[22:50] <Vantrax> it happens sabdfl
[22:50] <mdke> bodhi_zazen: not that I'm aware of, except for wiki and google searching
[22:50] <Mez> Joeb454: I did poke one of be's sysadmins to "set traffic shaping to uber" for sabdfl's connection :D
[22:50] <bodhi_zazen> OK
[22:50] <Joeb454> sabdfl: bodhi_zazen is a good leader, and the team is very dedicated, not to mention energetic
[22:50] <bodhi_zazen> we can discuss the technical details later ?
[22:50] <sabdfl> it comes in 3's, so there's another one out there waiting ;-)
[22:50] <mdke> bodhi_zazen: yes
[22:50] <bodhi_zazen> kk :)
[22:51]  * bodhi_zazen waves at sabdfl 
[22:51] <sladen> sabdfl: you need to get the in-wall star trek computer system upgraded with iris recognition
[22:51] <mdke> good job
[22:51] <Vantrax> if you do I demand pictures:P
[22:51] <bodhi_zazen> you are too kind in your complements Joeb454 and cprofitt ;)
[22:51] <mdke> I won't be able to hang around much longer, shall we try the next agenda item?
[22:51] <mako> ditto
[22:51] <Joeb454> bodhi_zazen: I tried lying and saying you were rubbish, but as it was sabdfl I thought I'd better be truthful :)
[22:51] <bodhi_zazen> thank you mdke =)
[22:52] <bodhi_zazen> LOL Joeb454
[22:52] <Mez> sabdfl: I suggest you "accidentally" smash a vase :D get #3 out of the way :D
[22:52] <sladen> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One.  Brand issues - followup.
[22:52] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One.  Brand issues - followup.
[22:52] <ibuclaw> Joeb454, truthful is a very vague word in Leicester ...
[22:52] <Vantrax> oh boy >.<
[22:52] <sladen> mako: did have an email reply;  did you get some notes/summry together?
[22:52] <mdke> let's try and keep the discussion limited to agenda items guys, we don't have much time
[22:52] <Joeb454> ibuclaw: I like to keep my presence low ;)
[22:52] <sabdfl> mako: did you gather your thoughts on this?
[22:53] <sabdfl> i saw sladen's commentary mdke moved to the /talk page
[22:53] <jono> btw folks, sketchy net here, I might drop out
[22:53] <Mez> jono: screen + irssi :D :P
[22:53] <jono> Mez, yeah yeah :)
[22:54] <ibuclaw> Mez, and that will help how ? ;)
[22:54] <Mez> ibuclaw: he'll be able to read backlog
[22:54] <ibuclaw> ah, forgot about that.
[22:54] <sladen> interestingly the bug report has been quiet in the week since, which could indicate that the issue has died down---or that people are content that it is being looked at
[22:55] <mdke> a bit of both, I suspect
[22:55] <mako> sabdfl: so i've not written anything up. i think my general position is a little half baked
[22:55] <sabdfl> i have meant to reply to mdke's response, and one other set of questions that i thought was illuminating (forget the nick of the commenter)
[22:55] <mako> in general, i think i agree completely with mdke's objection as written in the bug
[22:55] <sladen> mako: what would it be if it was fully cooked?
[22:56] <mako> but with a different justification that i think he is working from
[22:56] <mako> which stems from empirical social science work that i've been doing on large free software projects
[22:56] <Mez> mako: link to mdke's objections?
[22:56] <mako> Mez: they are on the bug
[22:56] <sabdfl> since we last discussed this, i've been thinking more about whether we can articulate a set of guidelines on tastefulness / appropriateness
[22:56]  * Mez read "blog"
[22:57] <sladen> sabdfl: I found  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubunet/+bug/375345/comments/71  illuminating, is that the same set of questions that you had in mind?
[22:57] <sabdfl> franklin street won't work, i'm afraid, since i don't have confidence we could make a commercial success of it
[22:57] <Mez> [LINK] http://launchpad.net/bugs/375345
[22:57] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/bugs/375345
[22:57] <sabdfl> and as crass as it may sound, that's important to the sustainability of ubuntu
[22:57] <mako> so my concerns are, one level, orthogonal to issues of freedom (although obviously, i care a lot about this)
[22:57] <mdke> sabdfl: I completely agree that Canonical's success is important to the sustainability of Ubuntu, I think everyone sensible realises that.
[22:58] <nixternal> sabdfl: I don't think that sounds crass at all, and actually I think that is a very valid point, probably something many could really stand to know...
[22:58] <cprofitt> not to interject, but Microsoft called their disk space 'SkyDrive'
[22:58] <mako> i'm increasingly confident saying that simples of centralized ownership over a project result in an increased concentration of contributions from the firm
[22:58] <sladen> sabdfl: is this related to the sync app, or the app-store/online brand in general?
[22:58] <sabdfl> i don't agree with the sentiment that this is a major issue - there are already so many cases of linkage between free software on the desktop / server and semi/completely proprietary cloud services, that i don't accept that canonical should be held to a different standard
[22:58] <mako> basically, if a project seems owned by a firm, volunteers ar eless likely to contribute (i think this makes intuitive sense)
[22:58] <cprofitt> and hardly anyone knows about it... so picking a name is important... and 'brand' ID is important as well.
[22:58] <mako> things like trademarks, control over trademarks, copyright assignments, and more all might be important indicators
[22:59] <sabdfl> on the trademark issue, i also have firmed up in resolve that "ubuntu" can't be redefined to mean "free only" (we started out with restricted too, remember); we want it to stand for the best possible sustainable experience that can be delivered on a free platform
[22:59] <mako> as i said last time, i think the fact that canonical is not called ubuntu ltd remains the smartest move in this regard to that canonical made, and i think that protecting this division is important to the health of our volunteer community
[22:59] <sabdfl> we also want it to be a "force for good", which means pushing the envelope
[23:00] <sabdfl> but it would be irresponsible to push it beyond where we have confidence it can survive
[23:00] <sladen> sabdfl: 'restricted' exists to enable areas where a Free equivalent does not (yet) exist.
[23:00] <sabdfl> mako: i agree, but it also makes it easier for folks to oversimplify the case, because it's easier to forget the symbiosis
[23:01] <sladen> sabdfl: which is a Good Thing(tm) because it enables more people to use Ubuntu
[23:01] <sabdfl> sladen: define enable ;-)
[23:01] <mdke> sabdfl: the point that Ubuntu isn't wholly free just doesn't fly, for me
[23:01] <sladen> sabdfl: ...this is the choice that the user _chooses_ to accept
[23:01] <mdke> in the past, when ubuntu has decided to go with non-free things, it's always been a carefully discussed issue, that was justified according to Ubuntu's other aims and principal goals
[23:01] <mako> sabdfl: so i'm talking about perceptions here
[23:02] <sabdfl> anyhow, i was wanting to see if there were more useful boundaries or guidelines that would help us shape the relationship between the desktop and U1
[23:02] <sladen> sabdfl: more crashes, and there's nothing that can be done about it, because it's in restrictied
[23:02] <mdke> UbuntuOne hasn't been like that at all, it's a project that is not produced by or open to the Ubuntu community
[23:02] <mdke> and I can't really see how Canonical couldn't make money out of it with a name that doesn't blur the distinction between it, and Ubuntu as a project
[23:02] <sabdfl> mdke: it's been discussed at two UDS's in succession, albeit under a different working title
[23:03] <mako> i still think it's worth dealing with the smaller subset of issues that mdke and i are raising first
[23:03] <sabdfl> mdke: as i said previously, a seamless experience is a plus, not a minus
[23:03] <mdke> sabdfl: right, as I hope I made clear in the bug, I think the idea is very exciting, and the implementation (except for the name) good
[23:03] <mdke> sabdfl: I don't understand that statement
[23:03] <sabdfl> we modelled out the experience with "Canonical One", and it felt jarring to the user
[23:03] <mdke> where did the "One" come from?
[23:04] <Mez> sabdfl: "Canonical One" just sounds like a space shuttle
[23:04] <nixternal> Mez: airplane
[23:04] <sabdfl> mdke: a long list of options :-)
[23:04] <cprofitt> sabdfl, sorry if I am talking out of turn, but will Ubuntu One be something that non-Ubuntu users will be able to make use of as well?
[23:04] <mdke> sabdfl: but it doesn't mean anything
[23:04] <Mez> nixternal: hush :D
[23:04] <mako> i'm not happy trading "jarring for the user" for "sense of institutional independence of the community"
[23:04] <sladen> sabdfl: hypothetical question;  should a Free (but costing $20/month) alternative to CanonicalSync come along;  are you happy if (hypothetically) the CC choose to ship the Free one as part of UbuntuOne?
[23:04] <mako> i understand that it's a trade-off we may need to make
[23:04] <sabdfl> cprofitt: there are web-based interfaces to the current set of services, yes
[23:05] <mdke> I'm pretty sure that all these clever guys can think of a name that tells the user what the product is effectively, and doesn't blur it with the Ubuntu project itself
[23:05] <nixternal> would something like Ubu One still be an issue? mdke | mako?
[23:05] <mako> and i understand that people in canonical (who stand to benefit in ways that i and others in the community do not) might feel different about this
[23:05] <mako> that's not to say that community people won't benefit
[23:05] <mako> but they clearly won't benefit in the same way
[23:05] <sabdfl> mako: it's also not useful to create a false sense of independence. that symbiosis is real, but for many people it's not obvious, and that hurts
[23:06] <cprofitt> sabdfl, I would be concerned that Ubuntu One may confuse those from other distros then...
[23:06] <cody-somerville> I think whats most confusing is that a product using Ubuntu One and that actual platform Ubuntu one have the same name.
[23:06] <mdke> nixternal: I would like something that actually describes what the product is, because it would clearly differentiate the project from Ubuntu.
[23:06] <mako> i'm not suggesting creating a false sense of independence! i am suggesting reinforcing a real sense of independence!
[23:06] <sabdfl> mako: i think it's difficult to say that Ubuntu One's success would benefit folks at Canonical more than folks who are not at Canonical
[23:06] <sabdfl> for example, if Canonical is not a success, a lot of the fun of Ubuntu goes away
[23:06] <elmo> mdke: ubuntu one is a platform as well as a product; a name describing the platform is not particularly easy to find
[23:07] <mako> i wouldn't support renaming canonical ubuntu ltd for the same reasons. they're not the same organization
[23:07] <gregknicholson> If Ubuntu One is so well integrated, does it need its own branding? Can it not just be “the Ubuntu sync service”?
[23:07] <cody-somerville> sabdfl, When Canonical develops other products using the Ubuntu One platform, will they be called Ubuntu One as well or will they have their own distinct name?
[23:07] <sabdfl> gregknicholson: i think we end up there, indeed
[23:07] <gregknicholson> For example, Nautilus is usually just “the Ubuntu file browser”. The code itself could still have a separate codename.
[23:07] <mdke> elmo: this is probably a rather uninformed question, but what is the difference, from a branding perspective?
[23:07] <mako> sabdfl: sure, and i really want canonical to be a success for that and for other reasons
[23:08] <cody-somerville> sabdfl, And what will the trademark policy be for third parties developing a product leveraging Ubuntu One? Will they be able to use the Ubuntu One trademark as a part of their product's branding?
[23:08] <mako> but i think that canonical's success is dependent on an empowered, distinct, community around ubuntu
[23:08] <mako> i believe that deeply, as i always have :)
[23:08] <sabdfl> cody-somerville: yes, in the same way that you can say your product uses libnotify
[23:08] <mdke> elmo: I mean, a good name is a good name, I would have thought
[23:09] <nixternal> sabdfl: was it ever discussed about possibly opening up a service like this to more than just Ubuntu?
[23:09] <mdke> ubunet is a good name, for example
[23:09] <sabdfl> nixternal: yes, and that remains a possibility. all the client code is open source, hard (and silly) for us to stop it being used in interesting ways
[23:09]  * nixternal likes Us, like you and I us, as in Ubuntu Syncro or something
[23:09] <mako> so if pressed, yes, i also think the name is ultimately bad for canonical. but it's not my business to make business decisions for canonical. my job here on this council is to represent what i think is best for the ubuntu community
[23:10] <nixternal> sabdfl: right, just asked from a naming perspective really, as what I remember you talking about at the last UDS in Mt. View would be super cool to have in the Linux world
[23:10] <sladen> sabdfl: I'm assuming that in a case of Canonical being laid down, and because of the integration, Ubuntu One would be carried on by the same (your) insurance policy that would allow (the) Ubuntu (Project) to continue in some manner.  If that's not the case, perhaps it should not be so closely integrated and named as such   [nb. I would like it to be tightly integrated, because otherwise there is potential being missed out on]
[23:11] <sabdfl> sladen: for clarity, continue == meet maintenance commitments for existing releases
[23:11] <sabdfl> not "stay as much fun" ;-)
[23:11] <sabdfl> but yes, that raises the key point that a failure would actually affect people's daily experience
[23:11] <sabdfl> in the same way that Google shutting down a service does
[23:11] <jono> I am wondering whether we are going in circles with the discussion
[23:12] <sladen> sabdfl: same as my definition.  [If] Ubuntu One is integrated to the potential it can be;  it will need to be [for existing commitments]
[23:12] <elmo> mdke: (think it's drifting off topic, but the platform will run a huge range of services eventually, the initial service is simple to describe.  I personally find it harder to name the platform, maybe that's just me.  (And in case it wasn't obvious I wasn't involved in branding of U1))
[23:12] <nixternal> how about a naming contest :)
[23:12]  * mdke nods at elmo
[23:12] <sabdfl> there's no upside to a naming contest - the name is settled. what would be useful is a broader discussion of boundaries in the area of services rendered from the cloud to the desktop
[23:12] <gregknicholson> I think the community would be happier with a code/product naming split; like identi.ca vs. laconi.ca and Chromium vs. Google Chrome (and a bit like Gecko/Firefox, or historically Mozilla/Netscape).
[23:12] <sladen> elmo: so it's this Product != Platform != OS confusion
[23:13] <sabdfl> it's a complicated topic, but this is a smart group, ideas would be welcome
[23:13] <jono> I think what we need is a clarification of what U1 means to the ubuntu ethos
[23:13] <sabdfl> i want us to be in the lead on this. if I thought that could include Franklin Street, we'd be there
[23:13] <cody-somerville> Do people object to the open source platform thats been developed as being called Ubuntu One or the new file syncing service that Canonical has built on top of it?
[23:13]  * popey quite likes "U1" as a name, without alluding to what it previously/actually stands/stood for
[23:13] <sabdfl> popey: noted :-)
[23:13] <Mez> popey: you try buying u1.com
[23:13] <jono> sabdfl, maybe we could better document this on ubuntu.com
[23:13] <persia> cody-somerville, I don't think that at the time the bug was filed it was clear to most that there was a distinction between the platform and the file sharing service.
[23:14] <sladen> cody-somerville: Ubuntu One is a great name.  Everyone can upload (high quality) packages to Ubuntu.  The same should be true of Ubuntu One
[23:14] <popey> Mez: u1.ubuntu.com :)
[23:14] <sabdfl> Mez: bono still can't afford it ;-)
[23:14] <Mez> sabdfl: *groans*
[23:14]  * Mez wonders who's higher up the "rich list" - sabdfl or bono :D
[23:14] <mdke> what concerns me most is sabdfl's "the name is settled" statement
[23:14] <sladen> and Ubuntu One should be moved under the .ubuntu.com domainname (IMHO).  At the moment, ubuntuone.com doesn't even bother to link to ubuntu.com   [*except in a legal notice]
[23:14] <mako> ok, so it is worth clarifying what exactly we're talking about
[23:15] <mdke> it kind of makes me feel like I've been putting effort into a useless discussion
[23:15]  * mako nods to mdke
[23:15] <mdke> and it identifies what bothers me the most about this whole affair
[23:15] <mdke> which is that everything was settled well before the Ubuntu community as a community had a look in
[23:15] <popey> one.ubuntu.com is nice
[23:15] <sabdfl> mdke: we've had several weeks of discussions on the bugtracker, and a CC meeting on the topic, and there hasn't been an argument that I warrant sufficiently compelling to change course on
[23:15] <mdke> and that the branding of the project will be changed as a result
[23:15] <sladen> [IDEA] move Ubuntu One to  one.ubuntu.com
[23:15] <MootBot> IDEA received:  move Ubuntu One to  one.ubuntu.com
[23:15] <mako> if the name is settled, than canonical is basically saying that the community council's potential disapporval doesn't matter to how canonical is going to use the mark
[23:16] <greg-g> if anything, it should be ubuntuone.canonical.com, for the reasons outlined above regarding the community's representation
[23:16] <sabdfl> sladen: i agree - one.ubuntu.com is how i imagined it
[23:16] <mako> which makes me feel like (as mdke says) we've been wasting our time and energy
[23:16] <mdke> sabdfl: sorry, it's just how I feel, and I can see that mako feels the same
[23:16] <sladen> sabdfl: excellent.  So I'm not completely 180^ from other people!
[23:16] <Mez> I agree with mako and mdke :D
[23:16] <sabdfl> mako, mdke, i understand that you feel this way. it was an open question when we started the discussion, there are no new arguments today
[23:16] <mdke> well
[23:16] <cody-somerville> Why isn't there a website or anything for the platform?
[23:17] <sabdfl> cody-somerville: good idea, pitch in and make one!
[23:17] <mdke> the main reason I wanted to comment on this meeting was the make the point I have made in response to Mark's "Ubuntu is already non-free" point
[23:17] <mako> sabdfl: the argument is that, at the very least, that decisions to license the ubuntu brand in ways that will affect the community (for better or for use) should be up for review by the community
[23:17] <cody-somerville> I'd be happy to assist.
[23:17] <sladen> sabdfl: now, it being at one.ubuntu.com;  what expectation are now expected about its freeness, and openness to contribution by other Ubuntu contributors
[23:17] <mdke> I haven't seen that point made in the past
[23:17] <mako> and, "we get to tell canonical how we feel" is a little hollow
[23:18] <sabdfl> mako: "should be"? i think it would be good not to have massive dissonance, and we clearly have some dissonance here, but creating a false expectation is a recipe for unhappiness later
[23:18] <sladen> sabdfl: I'd like to work on the right integration of services and Ubuntu.  Would the only way for me to do that, be to go and work for Canonical?
[23:18] <mdke> I do accept that Mark gets the final say on stuff, because independently, on Canonical's role in the community, he is the sabdfl
[23:18] <mdke> but I don't feel like the arguments on the brand point have been compelling, to say the least
[23:18] <cody-somerville> Will the Ubuntu One platform be a product that is owned, managed, and developed by the distribution?
[23:18] <sabdfl> sladen: no, contributing to the discussions at UDS and on lists on the subject would work. as would contributing to the code where it actually gets integrated
[23:19] <mako> going with the community governance bodies when everyone agrees is easy
[23:19] <Mez> sabdfl: A thought: If Dell were the people behind ubuntu one instead of canonical, would you be happy for them to use the name (assuming that it was exactly the same services etc etc)
[23:19] <mdke> not going to them at all when you know there might be disagreement is also easy
[23:19] <mako> going with them with everyone in the community disagrees
[23:19] <mdke> but it's wrong
[23:19] <sladen> sabdfl: is the code going to be open enough to effectively contribute to?
[23:19] <jono> what I find a bit disappointing about this issue is that the name has received criticism purely because Ubuntu is used with a commercial affiliation from a single company, without actually assessing the risk associated
[23:20] <mako> we see an (imperfect) but pretty real split between the canonical and non-canonical members on the cc
[23:20] <sabdfl> mdke: +1
[23:20] <jono> I would say the last four years of Canonical has proven Canonical to be trustworthy, and to provide a commercial service with Ubuntu in the name seems reasonable to me
[23:20] <sabdfl> i think the traffic on the bug has died down because people have assessed the lay of the land and are now waiting to see how it actually works out
[23:20] <Mez> sabdfl: and if not, why, with respects to the brand, why should canonical be able to do that becase of their affilliation?
[23:20] <jono> whereas it seems this issue is the black/white discussion of 'Ubuntu' attached to a commercial offering
[23:20] <mako> sabdfl: i have told people as much
[23:20] <sladen> sabdfl: (the protocols and local cleints are already---which to me is probably enough)
[23:21] <sabdfl> and how it works out has a LOT more to do with the tastefulness and boundaries of what gets integrated, where, and how, than it does the name
[23:21] <mako> sabdfl: i have told upset people on non-ubuntu lists to write down new arguments and to let the cc discuss this
[23:21] <mdke> jono: I'm surprised by that too. I thought the response to my post on the bug would be "no, you're wrong that the brand will be affected by this, people won't notice". Instead, it's been "Ubuntu being branded as non-free and closed for participation doesn't matter, because it already has that in some areas"
[23:21] <dinda> jono:  true we already offer Canonical's training under the Ubuntu Training brand
[23:21] <jono> in my mind, the actions of the commercial entity should be a huge signifier when it comes to their trust in the brand
[23:21] <sabdfl> so i feel this group could help shape the future interplay of services and software, or it could spend hours arguing about the name
[23:21] <cody-somerville> mako, mdke: If the file sync service was named "FileSync powered by UbuntuOne", would you still be unhappy?
[23:21]  * mako nods to mdke 
[23:21] <sabdfl> clearly, you can see where I think this group's energy would be serve the interests of freedom and beauty :-)
[23:22] <jono> dinda, exactly
[23:22] <Mez> cody-somerville: I would be.
[23:22] <mako> i think it's clear that nobody here wants to argue about the name
[23:22] <Technoviking> back:)
[23:22] <sabdfl> mdke: it's not true to phrase this as "branded non-free and closed for participation"
[23:22] <Mez> sabdfl: did you spot my question scrolling by in the mass debate?
[23:22] <jono> mdke, indeed
[23:22] <mako> dinda: if it is an exclusive deal (i.e., nobody else can offer u ubntu training) i think i would objec
[23:22] <sabdfl> we just had our biggest-ever UDS, where more upstreams flew in at their own expense to participate than ever before
[23:22] <ibuclaw> o/ Technoviking
[23:22] <sabdfl> Mez: missed it
[23:22] <Mez> sabdfl: A thought: If Dell were the people behind ubuntu one instead of canonical, would you be happy for them to use the name (assuming that it was exactly the same services etc etc)
[23:23] <dinda> mako: it is exclusive to us and partners
[23:23] <mako> and i agree with mdke. we've probably made mistakes and been sloppy before. which is not a reason to contineu :)
[23:23] <mako> dinda: which partners get to run ubuntuone?
[23:23] <mdke> sabdfl: I was rather crudely summarising my concern, rather than saying that this is an actual perception of Ubuntu here and now
[23:23] <Mez> (Dell is just an example)
[23:23] <dinda> mako: sorry, training partners
[23:23] <sabdfl> Mez: we do already outsource services, i.e. brand other people's services "Ubuntu"
[23:23] <mako> and in general, i'm great with that statement with "us" == ubuntu community
[23:23] <Mez> sabdfl: any examples that you can share ?
[23:24] <mako> it's worth distinguishing between projects which are using the name largely descriptively and those that are claiming to actually be ubuntu
[23:24] <mako> i want to the trademark to be licensed as widely as possible in the first sense
[23:24] <mako> i want to see lots of people building businesses on ubuntu
[23:24] <sladen> mez: probably the swag store.  Ubuntu name, but out-sourced
[23:24] <JanC> I think all this is mostly perception, not in the least because no other company has done an "Ubuntu branded" service... (or at least not a very public one)
[23:24] <sabdfl> Mez: training - as per the thread between dinda and mako
[23:24] <mako> but we need to be able to disentangle their business from the ubuntu project proper
[23:25] <mako> that really is the beginning and end of my litmus test
[23:25] <cody-somerville> What I find confusing is that the platform and the first ever service built on top of it have the same name.
[23:25] <sabdfl> the ubuntu magazine.
[23:25] <jono> mako, do we?
[23:25] <JanC> the ubuntu-user magazine is brand new, and almost nobody saw it  ;)
[23:26] <Mez> JanC: if it wasn't for Technoviking twittering it :D
[23:26] <greg-g> jono: I think we should, but that is just me.
[23:26] <Mez> :D
[23:26] <sabdfl> as a thought experiment, imagine the name was FooNet
[23:26] <mdke> sabdfl: as far as I can see, all existing uses of the brand have a clear description that doesn't cause me to worry that it might be confused with Ubuntu
[23:26]  * ibuclaw saw it in WHSmith, and read Technoviking 's "answer man" section with glee :P
[23:26] <JanC> almost nobody uses twitter (relatively speaking compared to Ubuntu users)
[23:26] <mdke> the Ubuntu Magazine, I'm guessing, must be a magazine
[23:26]  * Technoviking blushes
[23:26] <elmo> mdke: good guess
[23:26] <mdke> Ubuntu Training, ditto, etc etc
[23:27] <sabdfl> for people who have the view that *any* linking or association with non-free (where the goalposts of "free" move regularly), Ubuntu would still be tainted if it integrated FooNet
[23:27] <Mez> mdke: Ubuntu Store could be confused :D (oscommerce anyone?)
[23:27] <mako> jono: if we belonging to our community feel like working for canonical for free, we are in trouble. this is an issue we already struggle with. a clear distinction between ubuntu and the firms that work on it (and canonical in particular) is essential to that
[23:27] <sabdfl> mortally tainted
[23:27] <mdke> elmo: whoops, that came across a bit silly
[23:27] <sabdfl> so, renaming will not address that potential problem
[23:27] <jono> mako, I am not suggesting that, I am suggesting we need to clearly define the commercial line sand community lines
[23:27] <Mez> sabdfl: Depends on your definition of free. By the same concensus, any twitter client is non-free
[23:27] <sabdfl> we are in that world, boots and all
[23:27] <jono> mako, and I think Ubuntu One is clear in that regard
[23:27] <persia> I don't think it's about freeness, but about identity by participants.
[23:27] <mako> jono: oh, that was my point
[23:28] <sabdfl> now, how do we provide leadership?
[23:28] <greg-g> however, if the server code were AGPL (or GPL) the naming issue wouldn't be as big an issue, if any.
[23:28]  * jono high fives mako 
[23:28] <sabdfl> and how do we do that, grounded in commercial reality?
[23:28] <mdke> persia: that's also a concern for me
[23:28] <mako> jono: really? you think ubuntu one is clearly not a product of the ubuntu community?
[23:28] <sladen> sabdfl: mentioning Foo Net is good;  helps to start separating out what is what
[23:28] <sabdfl> i'm delighted for others to address this problem in theory - but i want to address it in practice
[23:28] <jono> mako, I think Ubuntu One from my perspective is a Canonical product made available to the Ubuntu community and customers
[23:28] <mako> jono: i mean, demonstrably, it is not a product of the ubuntu community. it is a for-profit non-free service of canonical
[23:28] <Technoviking> mako: but people in the community with be able to contribute plugin to U1 with the api
[23:28] <RoAkSoAx> jono, +1
[23:29] <Mez> jono: "from my perspective" being the key words... you are, after all, a canonical employee!
[23:29] <JanC> mako: I think you have point there, several people feel the tension between working for the community and working for Canonical for free
[23:29] <sabdfl> as far as I know, none of the critique has come from people who are in the position of building sustainable operations
[23:29] <sladen> jono: the platform, or the sync service?
[23:29] <jono> mako, and I think as a heavy commercial invester in Ubuntu, Canonical have a reasonable right to provide a service, under the premise it does not force the community into it
[23:29] <mako> Technoviking: sure, call the client ubuntu
[23:29] <JanC> of course, Canonical employs peopel t owork for the community too  ;)
[23:29] <greg-g> sabdfl: except Evan P.
[23:29] <jono> Mez, that doesnt matter, that doesnt make me a drone
[23:29] <sladen> this is as bad as the mess that started with all the papers thinking that UNR was called simply "Remix"
[23:29] <mako> Technoviking: the parts that are free and institutional indepdent can be called ubuntu. the parts that are a proprietary canonical service are not (and should not be called it)
[23:29] <mdke> jono: it's not at all clear - I think my first thought as an Ubuntu user hitting the website or reading about the service would be that this is a product of the Ubuntu community
[23:30] <gregknicholson> sabdfl, you said “i want us to be in the lead on this. if I thought that could include Franklin Street, we'd be there”. In your opinion, is it commercially not viable to make Ubuntu One Franklin Street Free?
[23:30] <cody-somerville> I thought Ubuntu One wasn't a service but a platform.
[23:30] <Mez> jono, ok, think the same thing. KDE One... would you think that was a service provided by Nokia?
[23:30] <mako> jono: i think that's all right. but i do not believe that it is in the best interest of the community to call it ubuntu, even if it may be in the best interest of canonical
[23:30] <jono> mdke, you could argue that in many places Official Ubuntu Book, Ubuntu Training...
[23:30] <sabdfl> gregknicholson: yes. that's purely a judgement call, i have no evidence to back it up other than i can't think of anyone doing it in practice
[23:30] <sladen> (bad int he sense that it is hard to discuss an issue where a name is being used in a vague/blurry fashion---simply because it's hard to pin-point what exactly is being talked about)
[23:31] <popey> jono: both of those _were_ made by community members though
[23:31] <popey> jono: u1 wasnt
[23:31] <sabdfl> i think there will be SOME things that work that way (the business lies elsewhere from the service, the server code is an enabler to the network which drives the business)
[23:31] <mdke> jono: those are all descriptive names (and have community member participation, and are at least *nearly* free)
[23:31] <mako> jono: we said the (as you'll recall) that the book coulnd't be official unless it was free
[23:31] <greg-g> well see how status.net goes (the laconi.ca based for-fee service). Evan surely believes he'll be able to be sustainable for a FNS
[23:31] <Mez> jono: or would you think of it as something by KDE e.V
[23:31] <Mez> (or the KDE project, whatever you want to call it)
[23:31] <nixternal> Cohesive FT makes a great living by leveraging the power of Ubuntu and delivering open source solutions
[23:31] <jono> mako, entirely agree
[23:31] <sabdfl> but i don't see it being viable to make a blanket up-front commitment to the franklin street code, and still be confident of a reasonable chance of success
[23:31] <mdke> UbuntuOne doesn't have a descriptive name, isn't free and doesn't have community participation
[23:32] <jono> mdke, neither is Ubuntu User magazine
[23:32] <mako> jono: and even if they were exactly the same in type, that doesn't they were necessary the right choice then or that they make this the right choice now
[23:32] <nixternal> if I didn't get laid off at Cleversafe, we would have leveraged Ubuntu while creating revenue with an open source solution
[23:32] <sladen> mdke: and doesn't even bother to link to Ubuntu  (unlike every other training company/magazine etc)
[23:32] <gregknicholson> sabdfl, thanks.
[23:32] <jono> so, I think everyone has valid points, but we are spinning in circles
[23:32] <mdke> jono: it's clear to me that that isn't part of Ubuntu as a product though, because it's got "Magazine" in the brand
[23:32] <mako> jono: you helped write the forward that explained the way that the book had earned its name because it was in fact a product of the community and ownable by it
[23:32] <jono> we need to think of a way forward on the issue
[23:32] <Technoviking> mdke: I disagree, the UbuntuOne team is asking for community feedback, I don't view the process as closed
[23:32] <mako> jono: that's my test, and i don't see ubuntu one passing it
[23:33] <persia> For the avoidance of confusion, could we separate freeness from the other aspects?  Regardless of anything else, I think most of us could agree that Canonical has the right to make a business decision as to whether an offered service happens to be free (whether Franklin Street Free or otherwise).
[23:33] <sladen> Technoviking: +1
[23:33] <cody-somerville> jono, I think the biggest problem is that the platform, which is open source and open to contribution, has the same name as the first service built on top of that platform which happens to be proprietary.
[23:33] <mako> persia: yes
[23:33] <sladen> cody-somerville: +1 well summarised
[23:34] <JanC> does the magazine release its articles under a "free" (CC?) license?
[23:34] <sabdfl> not AFAIK
[23:34] <mdke> Technoviking: it has a bug tracker, yeah. But that doesn't take things very far
[23:34] <mdke> Technoviking: it's not in any way a product that can be considered as produced by the Community
[23:34] <Mez_> damned netsplit
[23:34] <Technoviking> I don't see anything the UbuntuOne has planned as hurting the reputation that Ubuntu has built up, but folk we are playing with the big boys now.
[23:34] <jono> so as this was raised at a CC meeting, are we expecting the CC to vote on this topic?
[23:34] <mako> JanC: if it doesn't, i'd support the cc making doing so a requirement for using the name going forward
[23:34] <nixternal> sabdfl: Cleversafe, a storage solutions company, leverages GPL, and they have somewhat been successful even though they are still young...the entire system is open source, except for some of the storage type algorithms they use...it can be done
[23:34] <Mez_> was there an answer to my question about KDE One?
[23:35] <mdke> jono: there's nothing to vote about, really
[23:35] <jono> I am just concious that it is late in Europe and this meeting might go on until 6am
[23:35] <sabdfl> nixternal: ...except for some of the storage type algorithms they use...
[23:35] <jono> :)
[23:35] <elmo> thank you freenode
[23:35] <nixternal> with Ubuntu one, right now it is Storage as a service, but that will grow, and charging a membership fee could very well work....
[23:35] <nixternal> sabdfl: right, and the only reason for that is silly patents
[23:35] <mako> jono: sabdfl has already said (AIUI) it isn't up for discussion
[23:35] <Mez_> jono, ok, think the same thing. KDE One... would you think that was a service provided by Nokia?
[23:35] <Mez_> jono: or would you think of it as something by KDE?
[23:35] <JanC> mako: I can see why they would want "NC", but otherwise i see no point in hiding their content   ツ
[23:36] <mdke> one thing the CC might be able to have a productive discussion about is whether and how it could be possible to avoid things like this happening in the future
[23:36] <dholbach> jono: as far as I recall the only ideas that came up until now were "rename Ubuntu One" and "involve the CC in trademarks decisions"
[23:36] <sabdfl> mako: it was up for discussion, we've had extensive public conversations, i'm now of the view that it's a settled matter
[23:36] <cody-somerville> sabdfl, Are you open to the idea of rebranding the file sync service so that there isn't any confusion as to what Ubuntu One actually is?
[23:36] <mdke> we've voiced our discontent and sabdfl has made the call, as is his right
[23:36] <sladen> jono: probably had to vote as the questions are unclear.  "Something" is topical (otherwise people woudn't be here at this hour).  But it's unclear what's actually at issue (one of the contributing factors (probably) being the vagueness of platform/product/OS)
[23:36] <Technoviking> jono: no vote, the community express a concern and the CC does need to keep an eye on UbuntuOne as it develops and make sure to does not do anything that would harm the community
[23:36] <sladen> hard
[23:36] <mako> so it's not an CC issue
[23:36] <mdke> but I'd still like to figure out how to fix things like this going forward
[23:37] <mdke> I'm astonished if Canonical didn't foresee some protestation about this, and very disappointed that we weren't involved in the discussion about the use of the mark
[23:37] <sabdfl> welcome back other half :-)
[23:37] <cody-somerville> sabdfl, It seems evident that folks keep confusing the Ubuntu One Platform with the filesync service that is built on top of it by Canonical.
[23:38]  * Mez_ can only assume his question has been missed... again
[23:38] <JanC> mdke: I would be surprised if they didn't foresee this
[23:38] <ajmitch> cody-somerville: probably because it's not clear what the platform is
[23:38] <mdke> JanC: sure, they have a whole community team :)
[23:38] <mako> if the role of the CC is to act as the sounding board for decisions that canonical (and sabdfl in particular) will make about the mark, i think i was operating under the impression that the community (and CC in particular) was more empowered than it is
[23:38] <mako> at least in this particular regard
[23:39]  * Mez decides to goto bed. This is turning into a circular conversation.
[23:39] <sabdfl> the CC and TB have certainly changed the course of Ubuntu, in several cases where I and others at canonical wanted a particular outcome
[23:39] <Mez> and I have to be in work early in the morning and hope I don't get made redundant !
[23:39] <sabdfl> in this case, i think we are missing the opportunity to figure out a richer set of guidelines for online services integration
[23:40] <JanC> Mez: slaapwel  ツ
[23:40] <sabdfl> we are arguing about the colour of the nuke power station, rather than the elements of its design
[23:40] <sabdfl> but, that's nature
[23:40] <mako> except that nobody on the cc has objected to the product or its functionality
[23:40] <sladen> sabdfl: bingo;  this is what I tried to explore at  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda/talk#Ubuntu%20One
[23:40] <RoAkSoAx> In the way how i see things (and how many other ppl see it around me) U1 is only a Storage Service rather than a platform, and a service for Ubuntu Users. In my opinion is a good name because it familiarize users and let them know that there are services (or advantages for some) if they use Ubuntu
[23:40] <sabdfl> we are set on an interesting path, and i intend to try and walk a balanced line, and would appreciate support from community leaders on that
[23:41] <Technoviking> I'm think maybe the CC needs a clear policy from Canonical on Ubuntu One, certain gurentees for the community
[23:41] <sabdfl> Technoviking: the shape of that code of conduct, effectively, is what i think would be interesting to discuss
[23:42] <sladen> Technoviking: I'm not sure that gaurantees would help;  but out of interest, what would you (specfically) have in mind?
[23:42] <sabdfl> at the moment, we're stuck on two things that aren't that productive for discussion:
[23:42] <mdke> sabdfl: I don't object to the idea of guidelines for online services integration, but find it difficult to understand what it might look like in the absence of a specific proposal
[23:42] <Technoviking> 1. The client is free and open. 2. The API is open, no special hooks for vendors who pay, etc...
[23:42] <sabdfl>  - can Canonical commit to open source all the code it ever produces (no)
[23:42] <sabdfl>  - should this be renamed to avoid the Ubuntu name (at this point, the decision is that would provide no real benefit)
[23:42] <sabdfl> but there's surely more to discuss
[23:43] <sladen> sabdfl: yet again, is "this" the platform, or the sync?
[23:43] <sabdfl> 2 is interesting, what if there's real cost to providing the hooks?
[23:43] <JanC> I think nobody complains about U1 functionality, but many complain about the use of "Ubuntu" by Canonical without clear guidelines for (other) companies to use that name too
[23:43]  * pygi thinks that the server side could always be re-implemented in open-source manner 
[23:43] <mdke> I've been talking about that second question because I feel strongly about it, but I agree that the discussion has been taken about as far as it can be, and will move on
[23:44] <dholbach> Technoviking: it's interesting that you're mentioning guarantees right now - I just got the feeling that for me it was easier to trust the Ubuntu One team at Canonical and see how (in a commercial sense) it's in line with the Ubuntu Ethos, because I talked to these people already
[23:44] <silner> Why isn't it called Canonical One? I suppose it's just not a very catchy name?
[23:44] <JanC> and I don't say clear guidelines are eay  ;)
[23:44] <JanC> easy
[23:44] <mako> sabdfl: and that's a decision you've made that 1/2 of the CC (before Corey left at least, not 2/5 now assuming dholbach is in support) seems to disagree with
[23:44] <mako> s/not/now/
[23:44] <elmo> mako: why 1/2 ?
[23:45] <Technoviking> sabdfl: I'm not much of a programmer, I'm sure I don't understand all the innards of a api set
[23:45] <persia> I think there are two interesting components.  One is the platform.  The implementation may be closed, but if access is open, I don't imagine an issue with using "Ubuntu": consider shipit, or Soyuz.  The other is particular services: I'd suggest that if a given service is both commercial and closed, that such a service not carry the name "Ubuntu".
[23:45] <JanC> silner: "Canonical One" is the nickname of sabdfl's plane  ;)
[23:45] <elmo> mako: by my count it's 4/2 who don't have a problem
[23:45] <mdke> mako: 3/7 anyway :)
[23:45] <mako> whoops, i was looking at the list of recently added rather than current
[23:45] <Technoviking> But I think the API should be a level playing field between community  plugins and commerical
[23:45] <elmo> or 4 to 2, to be less confusing
[23:45] <sladen> silner: Fippant: "Canonical One" is aready spoken for.  Longer answer: Ubuntu has the brand value here.  Ubuntu has the potential for integriation of the {platform,app} (See IRC logs from last week)
[23:45] <mako> elmo: for some reason, youre the only person not on that list
[23:45] <elmo> mako: oh, I just expired
[23:46] <mdke> heh, back to 1/2 then :p
[23:46] <mdke> oh no, that doesn't work either
[23:46] <mdke> anyway, the numbers aren't important
[23:46] <silner> sladen, fair enough.
[23:46] <elmo> mako: but when we had the first meeting, my understanding was: neutral or positive: sabdfl, dholbach, elmo, technoviking.  negative: mako, mdke
[23:46] <mako> and with the exception of Technoviking, it was a perfect canonical/non-canonical split
[23:46] <elmo> fwiw
[23:46] <mdke> I'm not at all surprised at the canonical/non-canonical split
[23:47] <Technoviking> dholbach: I definite think Canonical has earned the trust to do Ubuntu One'
[23:47] <elmo> mako/mdke: I think it'd be nice to assume us Canonical folks know how to wear hats
[23:47] <mdke> I don't think it's a negative thing
[23:47] <popey> Technoviking: +1
[23:47] <mako> elmo: corey filed the bug, so i'm assuming he was against it. he was on the cc when he raised the issue
[23:47] <sladen> Technoviking: same question, the platform or the sync app?
[23:47] <silner> At the risk of ordinary user naivety, why is this such a big issue?
[23:47] <sabdfl> neither am i. but i had hoped to make more progress last time, and this time, on the areas which are less well defined
[23:47] <mdke> elmo: I don't believe in hats, and actually, this isn't about hats
[23:47] <Technoviking> I'm only trying to find a middle ground so we can move on
[23:47] <elmo> mako/mdke: I'm not neutral/positive because I'm employed by Canonical; even if Mark were to fire me tomorrow, it wouldn't change my vote
[23:47]  * mako nods to elmo 
[23:47] <elmo> (not that we're voting, per se)
[23:47] <sabdfl> elmo: it's very nearly tomorrow!
[23:47] <sabdfl> ;-)
[23:48] <elmo> sabdfl: awesome, shall I torch the office on my way out? ;-P
[23:48] <Technoviking> I hope that is clearer
[23:48] <sabdfl> elmo: no, just change the hand-scanner details ;-)
[23:48] <mdke> elmo: no, but there are all sorts of much more subtle reasons that you might form that view; better knowledge/trust of the individuals taking the decisions, on our side, more (healthy) distrust, etc
[23:48] <JanC> I think it would be useful if there were guidelines for ubuntu-branded services
[23:49] <mdke> that's why we have a split membership of the CC
[23:49] <mako> i'm actually pretty bothered by the way this process has gone on. i didn't realize this wasn't part of the cc's purview until mark mentioned it in this meeting
[23:49] <sabdfl> we don't have consensus, which is a pity
[23:49] <sabdfl> it's also a pity that the split is largely along canonical / non-canonical lines
[23:49] <sabdfl> but i'm proud of the fact that we have this forum, and this discussion is being held here
[23:49] <jono> ditto
[23:49] <sladen> sabdfl: can I pin you down on this platform/applications-built-on issue.  To what extent is the blurring intentional
[23:49] <mdke> it's a shame it is being held now though
[23:50] <jono> sorry folks, I need to get onto a call in a few mins
[23:50] <sabdfl> i don't feel we're generating great ideas and suggestions, because i think we're stuck on the name, which is imo a false issue
[23:50] <RoAkSoAx> why don't you just set up a survey for all the Ubuntu Community and see if they agree/disagree with the name.. and other possible Ubuntu Branded services, rather than just keeping this issue between the CC? This way, you'll have the opinion of pretty much all the community.
[23:50] <sabdfl> because solving it won't change the sense of "this is dangerous territory indeed"
[23:50] <jono> RoAkSoAx, that turns it into a popularity contest, which is not the best determining factor
[23:50] <mdke> I think you could easily solve both those issues
[23:50] <popey> i think it's fair to say that if the cc was comprised of 10x the number it currently is, the split between canonical/non-canonical would be considerably less apparent. I'm sure there's many community folk out there who trust Canonical to "Do the right thing", and that it will pan out well, whether they contribute to the discussion or not.
[23:50] <sabdfl> we are better off acknowledging that we are on dangerous and uncharted territory, and finding our footing, caregfully
[23:51] <JanC> sabdfl: why not set a minimal set of rules for companies to use the Ubuntu brand for services?
[23:51] <sabdfl> RoAkSoAx: because this is not a democracy, and allowing things to turn into herd affairs and flamewars is not constructive
[23:51] <silner> popey, that's my feeling as normal user. Canonical have done enough to deserve my trust.
[23:51] <jono> ok folks, heading to this call, ping me if I can help with anything
[23:51] <RoAkSoAx> jono, right, but that will point out if the name Ubuntu One has affected users or community members. Since many people here say that's a fact that using Ubuntu Branded names for services will affect the community
[23:51] <mako> popey: for god sakes man, i trust canonical
[23:51] <JanC> if that's public, it would be much easier for Canonical...
[23:52] <popey> oh, I'm not implying you dont mako, sorry if that's how it came across.
[23:52] <mdke> popey: just to be clear, I have a good deal of trust for Canonical too; I just think this was a (rare) wrong decision
[23:52] <mako> for me, this is about the effect on voluntary contributions of visible symbols of single-firm ownership
[23:52] <sabdfl> JanC: we do have criteria, and we have the flexibility to decide how they are applied, and so far i think we've done a good job of building the brand accordingly
[23:52] <mako> and there's empirical work to back me up here (in the the general sense, at least)
[23:53] <sabdfl> mdke: i accept that it may be a wrong decision, and if so, that we have the savvy to correct it graciously
[23:53] <sabdfl> it wouldn't be the first time. nekkid people, anyone?
[23:53] <sladen> sabdfl: platform vs. app?  It will make this easier to discuss
[23:53] <popey> :)
[23:53] <mdke> hah
[23:53] <silner> I can also see that Canonical need a way of making money.
[23:53] <JanC> sabdfl: but currently those rules are set by canonical (which is your legal right), but they aren't really public IMHO
[23:53] <sabdfl> anyhow, i think we are out of time. i need more beauty sleep than this council allows
[23:53] <dholbach> just to clarify my position a bit: I personally feel that Ubuntu One follows a lot of ideals that we have in the Ubuntu community: stuff-made-to-just-work, being pragmatic, being transparent (open protocol), being useful (2G free for everybody) and being inviting (API, etc.) - all of that in a commercial setting that works a bit differently
[23:53] <Technoviking> sabdfl: :)
[23:53] <mdke> sabdfl: thanks for that statement. However, this *will* be a big project and a successful one, so if it starts on the wrong foot in terms of brand, that won't be reversible
[23:54] <RoAkSoAx> sabdfl, off course. Though since many people say the name affects the community, it would be nice to to see if they actually are affected by the use of UBuntu Branded services.. and In my opinion... it just doesn't affect us (the entire Ubuntu community) at all
[23:54] <mako> dholbach: so i agree with that statement
[23:54] <silner> So I'm prepared to cut them some slack on this. I think many ordinary users feel the same.
[23:54] <sabdfl> mdke: we are already on that foot, and the starting gun is echoing from the walls of the stadium
[23:54] <mdke> sabdfl: what do you mean?
[23:55] <sabdfl> if it's a horrible misjudgement, then we have paid the price for it already
[23:55] <mdke> I don't think so
[23:55] <stani> sabdfl: would you be willing to provide Ubuntu One free as beer (more than 2G) for open source projects?
[23:55] <sabdfl> (i had an image of an athlete launching themselves from the starting blocks, on that "wrong foot")
[23:56] <sladen> stani: the service or the app?
[23:56] <sabdfl> stani: we certainly have that option, we do that sort of thing in LP too
[23:56] <sladen> stani: the platform or the app?
[23:56] <sabdfl> and for ubuntumembers, for example
[23:56] <silner> sabdfl, Nor me. I don't think it's serious enough to harm the wider community at all.
[23:56] <sabdfl> but that blurs the line between principle and "club", right
[23:56] <stani> sladen: whatever an open source project needs
[23:57] <mdke> I definitely see this as being very successful, and welcome that. What I'm concerned about is its effect by association on Ubuntu; and the way that it has been handled
[23:57]  * mako nods to mdke 
[23:57] <sabdfl> silner: it's certainly a significant issue, and could well have a major negative impact, so we have to watch it closely
[23:57] <mdke> in the round, the name will play a very small part in the success of the project
[23:57] <JanC> well, Ubuntu One also involves Amazon AFAIK...
[23:57] <sladen> stani: right, the question is vague, I think you need to define it, otherwise we're all being vague and going around in circles
[23:57] <mdke> I feel passionately that it would have made Canonical a lot of money with a name that would have satisfied me
[23:58] <sladen> mdke: focus less on money, and more on the global success of Ubuntu.  One leads to the other.
[23:58] <mako> yes, i agree
[23:58] <sabdfl> mdke: i can only say that i reviewed a lot of names, some with and some without "Ubuntu" in them, and I think the team picked the best one
[23:58] <mdke> sladen: I'm fully aware of that
[23:58] <sabdfl> it was suggested, in fact, by one of the biggest project contributors of all
[23:58] <mdke> sabdfl: to be honest, I am ok with names with "Ubuntu" in them (see the magazine).
[23:58] <sabdfl> but to name them would be to draw them into this debate
[23:58] <mdke> heh
[23:59] <mdke> ok, I need to go to bed
[23:59] <popey> i wont be able to sleep now!
[23:59] <Technoviking> Getting the name Ubuntu out more I feel will only benefit Ubuntu as a whole
[23:59]  * popey prints out the ubuntumembers page
[23:59]  * popey gets a pin
[23:59] <mako> sabdfl: and i think if that if an empowered community is a goal, the decision to choose that name should be one that is ultimately up to the community
[23:59] <mdke> thanks everyone for the discussion; feel free to carry on without me