[00:41] Whoohoo, new version of warzone2100 out [01:08] sbalneav: hey, what about that ldm fix ? ;) [02:22] I just finished helping my kids install edubuntu.. [02:23] can't wait to sit down with them after school tomorrow and see how it goes... [02:24] :) [02:24] akgraner: how old are they? [02:24] 12 and 13 [02:24] That's a fun age. [02:25] yes fun...yea that's the word for teenagers... [02:25] :-D! [02:25] They love computers and they decided they would put the Macs down and try ubuntu [02:25] going to be their project for the summer [02:27] the docs are very helpful so far...:-) [02:32] If you remind me after the next week is out, I'll have time to dig out some of the activities from the junior high computer club I ran for you. [03:18] stgraber: I'll get to it. In a rush [03:18] ? [03:42] sbalneav: not really but I have releasing a new set of packages for integration in karmic this week [04:01] ok [10:44] Hi derosa [10:45] hi al [10:45] hi all === ogra_ is now known as ogra [10:49] derosa, I'm going to talk with HP to ask them if we can publish the workaround to make possible to use HP ScanJet G2410 in Ubuntu although we can't use it in our schools [10:52] maybe somebody that uses Ubuntu owns one HP G2410 [10:59] hi asanchez [10:59] hi highvoltage [11:00] I talked to LaserJock last night, he thinks that the edubuntu-menus package might solve some problems for you [11:00] there's currently no real documentation on it, so I'll look into it during the week and put some guide together if you'd like to try it [11:00] I'm installing a fresh install of edubuntu right now to analize the diferences between GuadalinexEdu and Edubuntu [11:01] highvoltage, of course [11:01] well, its quite trivial ... just add the users to the right groups [11:02] we looked at edubuntu-menus before but i remember that we can't customize menu items with it [11:02] docs are needed on how to set up new group profiles [11:02] you can, but you need to edit the .menu files [11:03] we had several specs about integrating that functionallity into the menu editor but they were never implemented [11:03] would be a good task for a wannabe edubuntu developer to write the proper patches ;) [11:07] ogra: right, like I said, some documentation is required [12:06] one question: edubuntu-desktop package only adds applications to Education menu? [12:07] no [12:07] or any other application is added to other menus? [12:07] it just uses the shipped .desktop files of the apps ... [12:07] so they show up wherever they register by default with xdg [12:08] ok, I can see TuxMath it's added to Games menu by example [12:09] right [12:10] which is the right thing to do :) [12:12] yes, I know [12:13] sadly kdeedu doesnt agree and adds everything to the education menu [12:13] so you dont know which app does what if you dont know them by name [12:14] ogra: cant u just install a patch on top to put it in the place u want? [12:14] yes, this is the reason we have to organize them in submenus by subject [12:14] saludos asanchez [12:14] hello nubae [12:14] nubae, indeed, but thats evil and hackish [12:14] asanchez, i disagree [12:15] we use dpkg-divert in GuadalinexEdu [12:15] yeah well, without evil, there would be no good, so I say patch away :p [12:15] we overwrite each entry of every package [12:15] apps should go in the right places in the main menu ... the way to do what you want is to have a proper selection of the apps that are *shown* not to add more confusing submenus [12:15] and thats what edubuntu-menus does [12:16] ogra, we have specific requirements of our schools [12:16] the plan was to couple the .menu files with a scheduler [12:16] so you add the student's schedule to the app and the menu selection will change from class to class [12:16] based on what the teacher needs/allows [12:17] ogra: very cool, something I have been asked for more than once by local schools in Austria [12:17] all other ways break the standards [12:17] basically teachers want the menu to be as simple and relevant as possible for the class being taught [12:17] and are essentially just bloating the menus [12:17] we'll chage the way to do it [12:17] seems quite obvious when u think about it, but there is still no good solution for that [12:17] sadly the edubuntu-menus implementation never got to that point [12:18] but that was its final target ... [12:18] what was it a python gui? [12:18] could it be resurected? [12:18] no, there is just the framework yet [12:18] ah ok [12:18] the plan was to implement edubuntu-menu editing in alacarte [12:19] alacarte? rings a bell [12:19] you currently can already make use of it but need to edit the .menu files manually [12:19] alacarte -> the menu editor in ubuntu [12:20] does it only exist for ubuntu? [12:20] for *ubuntu, yes [12:20] but should be portable to any xdg compliant distro [12:20] hmmm, its in the opensuse repos too [12:21] menu editor for gnome [12:21] though i'm not sure anyone ever tested it on KDE [12:21] oh, you mean alacarte [12:21] sbalneav has a working version of sabayon, which I think can apply menus by group. [12:21] yeah [12:21] sabayon is different [12:22] So it would be a matter of customizing the menus and saving to a sabayon profile, and applying this profile to a group (=class) of students [12:22] right, thats what sabayon does [12:22] edubuntu-menus works on the system level without special profiles, just by having system groups [12:23] i.e. if you have a math group and a student is in there she will have the selected math apps in the menu by default [12:24] nowadays we only make difference between teachers and students [12:25] right, but you already have a well working group system in the distro .... [12:25] Also it would be easy to customize the menus by using different XDG_DATA_DIRS (if I remember correctly) env vars on a per group basis. [12:25] while sabayon adds a more complex one on top, the aim of edubuntu-menus was to make simply use of what the distro already offers [12:26] with the advantage that somebody else maintains the core group system ... while in sabayon everything needs to be duplicated (indeed its purpose is wider as well) [12:28] alkisg, thats exactly what edubuntu-menus does ;) [12:28] it just couples the XDG_DATA_DIRS content with the group membership a student is in [12:28] have a look at the package, its trivial ... only a few files [12:29] I doing right now [12:29] Good... nah, we (Greek teachers) don't need custom menus, they're fine as they are now :D [12:30] well, its a common usecase [12:39] I've just add one new user called "matematicas" and I have added it to edubuntu-basic, edubuntu-math and edubuntu-office and when I login with "matematicas" user Evolution appears in two entries at the Applications menu [12:39] one of then at the root of Applications menu and another one under Office submenu of Applications [12:39] that's the right behaviour? [12:40] the one at the root is likely a bug [12:40] ask LaserJock, he did the selection [12:40] ok, I will [12:40] might be that edubuntu-basic puts evo in the root on purpose [12:41] i'm not sure [12:41] you should be able to edit /usr/share/edubuntu-menus/groups/edubuntu-basic.menu though [12:42] ogra: I don't think the guadalinex guys have much of a choice in what the menus should look like, they just have to make it happen to keep the people who make the choices happy [12:43] that's right! [12:43] right, but the way its done atm is not appropriate for ubuntu [12:43] dpkg-divert is never a good solution [12:43] not arguing there :) [12:43] gets you into maintenance hell [12:44] the principle thats used in edubuntu-menus can be used for guadalinex as well ... you can as well move around apps to the edu menu with .menu files [12:44] we have to mantain like looks like nowadays because education community allways uses this organization [12:45] right, but how many packages do you have to touch to make your setup happen ? [12:45] ogra, dpkg-divert is a nightmare, but we didn't have time and knowledge to make a new GuadalinexEdu version possible in 3 months [12:45] compare that to the handfull of files you have to maintain to achieve the same with edubuntu-menus [12:45] right [12:46] I think we maintain 54 packages with dpkg-divert [12:46] Wow, edubuntu-menus is a _really_ small package... very handy :) [12:46] right, and you have to touch them each release [12:46] and make sure the diversions dont break on upgrades etc [12:46] yes [12:47] we have to find a better solution [12:47] while its a quick solution for the moment, its a lot more work if you look at it over time [12:47] I'm going to play with edubuntu-menus [12:48] asanchez: maybe we need to embrace edubuntu-menus... and eventually expand is funcionality [12:49] would be great if someone would finhally finish edubuntu-menus :) [12:49] jbianquetti, i think so [12:49] iirc we specced it at UDS paris, highvoltage might correct me though ... [12:49] now we have 6 months until next release [12:49] before next release [12:50] sounds perfect :) [12:50] now that we use ubuntu as mother distribution we don't have to fight so hard with hardware support that consumes most of our time [12:50] LaserJock is your man for more details on the package ... and there might be a bunch of specs for edubuntu-menus that were worked out but never implemented [12:51] asanchez: u've not carried/looked at sugar till now right? [12:51] they might give you some good ideas [12:51] ogra, are that specs at launchpad? [12:51] yep [12:51] nubae: no. political decisions... [12:51] yeah Laserjock did some more work on edubuntu-menus recently iirc [12:52] I'm going to look for them [12:52] ok, well it will be interesting to look at sugar, its something that can be easily shown off and has some great benefits [12:52] decision makers tend to like it ;-) [12:53] ogra: yes, it was at uds-paris [12:53] and its very localised for Spanish already, since Sud America is heavily involved [12:53] asanchez, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-menus-completion [12:53] thanks === nubae1 is now known as Nubae === You're now known as ubuntulog [15:21] waht is the difference between 'apt-get install edubuntu-server^ [15:21] and 'apt-get install edubuntu-server' ? [15:24] the first one is a task [15:24] the second one is a metapackage [15:24] have a look at tasksel [15:26] ogra: i did [15:39] any guadelinex people around? [15:40] they get off at 15:00, an its now 16:30, so probably not [15:41] I had a guy file a sync request on gcompris [15:42] I was a little to-the-point in my reply but I forgot to thank him [15:47] we really need some more people looking at bugs [15:47] we're now at 280 [15:47] and with ~70 being LTSP [15:47] that's still 200+ that are in apps [16:07] LaserJock, It was me [16:07] derosa: oh [16:07] derosa: hi :-) [16:08] derosa: thanks for the work [16:08] No problem, I asked in #ubuntu-bugs what to do with it, as it seemed to be "forgoten". Someone suggested to request a merge, but I'm afraid I have a long way to go. I get lost with the procedures. [16:08] Hi :) [16:09] heh yeah, I was just saying to Laserjock its not entirely clear what the difference is between a merge and synch [16:10] nubae: well, a sync is when we request a straight copy of the source package from Debian (usually Debian unstable) [16:10] a merge is when we've got changes we've made that we need to keep, so we merge are changes into the newer Debian package and upload that [16:11] *our change [16:11] So, should I have requested a merge? [16:12] ah ok, thanks for the clarification [16:13] derosa: well, the Ubuntu changes need to be looked at, to see what can be dropped and what (if any) needs to stay [16:14] in this case I'm pretty sure that we're going to need a merge [16:14] it looks like Debian has included some of our changes, but not all [16:14] I see [16:16] we also have the added complication that a new build dependency was added by Debian that is not in Main [16:17] heh super... so what happens in cases like that? [16:17] you pull it to main or drop the dependency [16:18] ok [16:25] I'm guessing we'll want to try to get it pulled in [16:25] as I believe it is for an activity [17:00] time to go home, bye [17:05] LaserJock: How hard is it to get contributing developer rank? [17:06] bencrisford: I don't think it takes a ton, certainly much less than MOTU [17:06] bencrisford: how'd it go? [17:06] become member -> attach patches to bugs -> apply for developer -> get approved [17:06] :) [17:07] LaserJock, did you hear that guadalinex is intrested in using edubuntu-menus ? [17:07] ogra: I did [17:07] :) [17:07] LaserJock: Not great :P. Could of been worse, I got +0s. They said it was great what i was doing but they'd like to see a more sustained contribution in a particurlar area [17:07] ogra: I can't imagine modifying all the .desktop files :/ [17:07] yeah, and they even use dpkg-divert [17:07] a "come back in a three months" sort of thing [17:08] bencrisford: ok, yeah. That's about what I was thinking. Not bad though [17:08] Yeah, I guess [17:08] bencrisford: 3 months? I think if you put your mind to it 1 month would probably do [17:08] LaserJock: Really? Oh [17:09] well i knew i almost certainly wasnt gonna get it yesterday [17:09] but i wouldnt know unless i tried [17:09] yep [17:09] and id rather go for it and fail [17:09] than wonder the next day - "what if" [17:09] :) [17:09] the council is there to help you direct your efforts to where they're confident in giving you membership [17:20] LaserJock: Did you see the poster I made last week yet? [17:20] its not finished yet [17:21] and it still looks very messy [17:21] but im very pleased with the footer i came up with ^_^, wanna see? [17:21] Morning all [17:21] evenin sbalneav [17:22] bencrisford: sure [17:24] * LaserJock notes that every Edubuntu package has at least 1 open bug [17:25] LaserJock: I saw a couple without any :/ [17:25] anyway, ive hunted down my poster link on my blog - http://bencrisford.exofire.net/poster-temp1.pdf [17:25] LaserJock: I was looking through the bug list last night. [17:25] and im working on a gcompris bug atm LaserJock [17:25] bencrisford: the translations one? [17:25] When I fix a bug, should I post to my ppa for texting? [17:25] its really tricky yeah :'( [17:25] testing? [17:26] sbalneav: Upload it as a patch, or PPA [17:26] i think [17:26] sbalneav: if it's a trivial fix I wouldn't bother doing the PPA thing [17:27] LaserJock: The gcompris bug is alot trickier than it sounds, whoever made the code needs to learn a bit about consistency, tidiness, and leaving comments [17:27] sbalneav: most fixes should go into Karmic without too much concern, if they're SRUs we have -proposed for testing with [17:28] sbalneav: it's only when you've got some serious work going on (sabayon comes to mind) that the PPA is really needed, IMO [17:28] bencrisford: why is it trickier? [17:29] LaserJock: Well, the person who wrote the code seems to have a naming system, but it seems to not apply to the files i want :( [17:29] bencrisford: what code? [17:29] there is enough comments for a developer of the package, but not for a nooby hacker like me [17:29] LaserJock: gcompris [17:29] bencrisford: why are you messing with gcompris code? [17:30] LaserJock: Im not, im trying to fix the bug, trying to put a little message in to say to download the package thingy [17:30] am i not doing it right? :( [17:30] well, I wouldn't bother with that [17:30] ok, I'm waitning to hear from sabayon upstream on a couple of issues, so I'll probably spend some time over the next couple of days looking at some of the bugs. Any in particular that are a thorn in your side? [17:31] bencrisford: I would look at making the sound packages depend on the the relevant lang pack [17:31] LaserJock: Thats a bit complicated to me. Well it might not be, but i dont really understand what you mean, so i guess it is [17:31] sbalneav: at this point I have no idea, general triage is needed I think [17:32] bencrisford: well, if the user installs gcompris-sound-es that's an indication that they want spanish, right? [17:32] LaserJock: I guess... [17:32] bencrisford: so then shouldn't we also install language-pack-gnome-base-es ? [17:33] errr, but is that a gcompris bug? [17:33] how is it not? [17:33] well, thats about installing packages [17:33] exactly [17:33] and the package install is seperate from gcompris [17:33] which is what *we* do [17:33] which is the whole bug [17:33] no [17:34] the bug is in the way we handle translations [17:34] we extract out the translations and put them in language-pack-gnome-base-* [17:34] so it's our job to make sure that they get installed at the right times [17:34] in this case, it seems to me that we're lacking [17:35] ok, im sort of with you [17:35] but i cant say i fully understand :(, [17:35] im not the brightest spanner in the toolbox, sorry [17:35] well, the gcompris-sound-* packages are the translated sound files [17:35] and language-pack-gnome-base-* have the translated text files [17:36] yeah... [17:36] so it would seem to make sense that they should be installed together, right? [17:36] oooh! [17:36] yeah, i get it [17:36] but how would we tackle that, because the package install is seperate right? but we gotta change that? [17:38] Bug #348764 is probably one I can slay pretty easily. [17:38] well, packages depend on each other [17:38] Launchpad bug 348764 in gpaint "gpaint crashed with SIGSEGV in g_hash_table_foreach()" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/348764 [17:38] sbalneav: excellent [17:38] And one that the kiddies will find disconcerting. [17:38] bencrisford: *we* declare the relationships between packages [17:39] bencrisford: so we just need to declare a new relationship to have gcompris-sound-* depend on language-pack-gnome-base-* [17:41] LaserJock: Ok :) [17:41] how do we declare [17:41] * bencrisford apoligises again, for being such a dumb-ass :P [17:42] bencrisford: using Depends: in debian/control [17:42] ok, so this is in the package gcompris-sound? [17:43] no [17:43] the gcompris source package has it all [17:43] the 1 source package builds all the .debs [17:43] oh! so this - to fix - would take no coding? just packaging LaserJock? [17:44] that is the point, yes [17:44] most bugs are that way [17:44] hi kids [17:44] Hello highvoltage [17:44] I've gone a long time without having to do any coding :-) [17:45] highvoltage: Evenin' [17:45] I don't think I've *ever* had to actually code a patch, I've integrated some, but I've never done it from scratch [17:45] LaserJock: So I just have to add a depends to all the sound packages? [17:45] and submit that as a patch to the bug? [17:45] bencrisford: basically, yeah [17:45] ok :D [17:46] ty for all your help [17:47] LaserJock: What will adding the depends actually "do" though? [17:47] bencrisford: a dependency says, if you install this package you have to also install this other one [17:48] oh, ok [17:48] LaserJock: Am I gonna have to manually add each dependancy, or is there a command i can use? [17:48] bencrisford: you'll want to manually add them. You should make sure that the corresponding lang pack actually exists [17:49] ok, and also, wont this make gcompris a helluvalot bigger LaserJock? [17:49] no [17:50] because it's just doing that when the user installs it [17:50] ok [17:50] the packages are all separate [17:50] so we're just saying "when you install gcompris, these other packages need to also get installed" [17:52] LaserJock: Ok :), thank you so much for all your help. Just one last thing before I let you get on with your own life - http://pastebin.com/m7a2ecca1 - is that correct? as in, providing that package exists, it'll work [17:53] yeah, that's the idea! [17:53] :D yay [17:53] ty again ;) [20:18] highvoltage: Pingaling [20:18] pygi: Pingaling [20:19] bencrisford: yes? [20:19] How's your packaging skills pygi? :D [20:20] what ya need? [20:20] bencrisford: Pongalong [20:20] highvoltage: pygi: I have two helpers :D:D:D [20:20] hi py [20:20] heh [20:20] Well i fixed an edubug in gcompris [20:21] hi highvoltage [20:21] but the diff has like the contents of every file with a + before it [20:21] bencrisford: highvoltage knows his stuff, but him :) [20:21] should it be that cluttered/large? [20:21] i just changed the debian/control [20:22] pygi: highvoltage: ? [20:23] ill be back in 10 minutes or so, brb ;) [20:27] bencrisford: how did you produce the diff? [20:32] hi pygi! [20:33] bencrisford: did you produce a debdiff? A debdiff would be small if you only added a dependency. [20:43] highvoltage: Oh, should I have done a debdiff, i wasnt sure what to do [20:44] and i added a dependancy to every sound package [20:44] and there is *alot* [20:44] heh [20:45] i just did debuild -S [20:45] it gave me a diff.gz [20:45] with the .diff in it [20:53] highvoltage: pygi: sbalneav: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/27468154/gcompris_8.4.4-1.1ubuntu5.diff.gz there's my .diff [20:53] does it look right? [20:54] probably [20:54] diff.gz is a difference from the upstream tarball [20:55] oh [20:55] but did i do it right? will it need to be changed? [20:56] its probably right [20:57] ok, ty :) [20:57] !info gcompris [20:57] gcompris (source: gcompris): Educational games for small children. In component main, is optional. Version 8.4.4-1.1ubuntu4 (jaunty), package size 457 kB, installed size 1568 kB [20:58] !info dosemu [20:58] dosemu (source: dosemu): The Linux DOS Emulator. In component multiverse, is optional. Version 1.4.0+svn.1828-2ubuntu2 (jaunty), package size 2272 kB, installed size 5712 kB (Only available for i386 amd64) [21:00] We include both gcompris and dosemu in GuadalinexEdu :D [21:00] we've just fix one bug about gcompris: https://bugs.launchpad.net/guadalinexedu/+source/gcompris/+bug/371603 [21:00] Ubuntu bug 371603 in gcompris "Administration not available" [Medium,Confirmed] [21:01] what's the right way to include this patch in jaunty-updates? [21:02] asanchez: Dosemu for old dos games, I assume? Does dosemu still "busy wait" and lockup the cpu at 100% when it's not doing anything? Or did they fix that? I used to use dosemu for running Wordperfect 5.1 years ago :) [21:03] sbalneav, i don't remember for what we use dosemu [21:03] I only remember that it was a request from one of our ICT Schools [21:04] could be to run some old school management tool [21:05] sbalneav: dosbox doesn't use 100% cpu when idle [21:05] alkisg: ah, nice. [21:07] * alkisg thinks that after several days of fighting with the Debian policy/packaging tools, bzr and launchpad, he's now almost ready to actually starting coding! :D [21:07] Damn learning curves... [21:07] I know. [21:07] For me, the coding's the EASY part [21:08] it's all the fr*gg*ng rules and regulations of the workflow that takes so long to learn :) [21:08] Yeah, I wrote a couple of hundend lines of shell scripts in an afternoon, and it took me 3-4 days to learn how to correctly use my team's ppa to upload it there... [21:09] Amen, brother. [21:10] yeah, the tools are often the crutch... shouldn't be that way [21:10] thats why I like oBS... but this won't be yet another plug for opensuse :-) [21:11] I'm sure one day, it'll all make perfect sense. But right now, it's like being chained to a deal hippopotomos. I know where I want to go, but getting there is hard work, smelly, and ugly bits keep falling off. :) [21:12] those evil processes are important too [21:13] without them packaging, sharing code and so on will be a caos [21:14] sbalneav: and it tends to want to bite you in the ass along the journey ;-) [21:14] asanchez: yep, it is about distribution in the end... but it can still be made much simpler [21:14] doesnt have to be like a hippo, could be more like a rhino... secure, polished... fierce [21:14] To avoid keeping the ChangeLog twice, once in ChangeLog and once with every bzr commit, I used: `bzr log > ChangeLog` in a script before invoking bzr builddeb, is that ok? [21:14] (I'm _not_ talking about the debian/changelog one ) [21:15] asanchez: Oh, sure. Not disagreeing. It's just a huge learning curve for us old farts who are used to "tar xzvf ..; ./configure && make && make install" :) [21:15] to be honest, the rpm way is slighty easier and faster... [21:15] sbalneav, the last package I made I use "ar -x" [21:16] the same thing in the end... but u can do much more work packaging rpms [21:16] asanchez: lol [21:16] hardcore [21:16] what is ar? [21:16] it's a tool to extract package content [21:17] ah ok [21:17] first time I hear of it... [21:17] learn something new every day :-) [21:18] I make my last package 5 years ago :( [21:19] I'm becoming totally useless (i don't know how to say "inutil" in english) :D [21:20] As in: inutil ldapadd, you can add entried to your ldap database? :) [21:20] hehehe [21:23] inutil = useless [21:23] its correct [21:23] I made my last package about 20 minutes ago :p [21:24] once u get into the flow they tend to pop out like hot cakes [21:24] There is powerful tools today for building packages [21:26]