=== asac_ is now known as asac === MaWaLe is now known as Wajih === Wajih is now known as UBot-tn === UBot-tn is now known as MaWaLe === MaWaLe is now known as UBot-tn === UBot-tn is now known as MaWaLe === thekorn_ is now known as thekorn === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson === statik` is now known as statik === dashua_ is now known as dashua [13:40] does PPA use the same buildds that ubuntu archives use? [13:41] gnomefreak, I think not from https://launchpad.net/builders/ but you can get a more detailed answer in #launchpad. [13:41] damn wwring channel [13:41] thanks persia === yofel_ is now known as yofel [15:26] hi, is this the place to complain about code of conduct on planetubuntu? [15:27] gavin___, Probably not. [15:27] gavin___, Whats your issue? [15:28] Guy Van Sanden's recent blog posts attacking mono have all been aimed at hurting the reputation of mono and it's developers [15:28] his most recent claims that mono developers are attacking him [15:28] but in reality, it's him attacking mono devs [15:28] I believe this goes against your code of conduct [15:28] I ask that some authority speak with him and ask that he stop [15:29] or, if worst comes to worst, remove him from the rss feed [15:29] gavin___, It doesn't appear that he is doing anything wrong. [15:29] he is making false accusations [15:29] that is pretty uncool [15:30] I don't see where he is making false accusations. [15:30] "each and every time the mono camp has responded with screaming and insults" [15:30] that is a bold faced lie [15:31] the "mono camp" has never responded to him [15:31] This sounds like a personal issue. [15:31] If you're not happy with something he has said, I would recommend you approach himself yourself via e-mail or some other means and express your opinion. [15:32] I doubt he would be willing to discuss this rationally, it's obvious from his posts that he is out to hurt our reputations [15:33] he wants mono out of ubuntu and he has made it abundantly clear that he is willing to stoop to any level to hurt mono in any way that he can [15:34] I am not opposed to rational debate, but these attacks are not rational [15:35] that would be something you'd need to take up with the CC, to get him removed from planet, but it woudl be advised you take it up with him first. [15:35] all I'm asking is that someone ask him to tone it down/stop/whatever. [15:35] I'm not necessarily asking that he get removed from the planet [15:35] * elky checks the meeting timetable... [15:35] I'm sure he's there because he's a contributor [15:35] gavin___, That someone would need to be you. [15:36] cody: I would if I suspected there was any chance at all that he'd even listen to me [15:37] * ziroday remembers something about you don't know if you don't try [15:39] I've tried talking sense to people like him in the past, and all it got me was personal attacks [15:40] gavin___, People "like" him? [15:40] yea, the Roy Schestowitz Brigade [15:40] gavin___, If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the issue isn't one sided. [15:41] I have not made any eprsonal attacks nor have I plastered anything across the internet [15:42] so while our opinions do differ, I have not tried to ruin his projects reputations or anything else [15:42] * popey tires of the mono argument :( [15:42] in any case, I respect your suggestions but I think if that's all you can offer I'll just continue ignoring the trolls [15:43] and hope they eventually go away [15:43] popey: as do I :( [15:43] gavin___: I'd honestly bring this up with the cc [15:43] get clarification [15:43] how do I contact the cc? [15:43] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil [15:44] either mail them direct, or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda add an item for the next meeting, and attend and put your case [15:44] oh, heh, that's the page that sent me here :p [15:44] I think you have the wrong attitude gavin___. Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone a troll. [15:44] cody: no, you misunderstand me [15:44] disagreeing is fine [15:44] badmouthing mono over misinformation and then saying the mono project devs/contribs are attacking him is just an outright lie [15:45] aimed at hurting our reputations [15:45] this is unfair [15:45] and that is what I'm here about, not a disagreement of opinion [15:45] here isnt the right place I'm afraid gavin___ [15:45] well, it isn't when there isn't a CC meeting in progress at least [15:45] here is where we have meetings, nothing much else happens outside those hours, and no real note will be taken of what you've said here now because a meeting isnt in progress [15:46] popey, nod, understood - I misunderstood the wiki page (which I thought said to come here) [15:46] gavin___: easily done [15:46] james_w: too quick for me ;) [15:46] gavin___: I didn't read the posts as saying the "mono project devs/contribs are attacking him" [15:46] Neither did I [15:47] james_w, well, if he didn't mean us, then I don't know who he's talking about [15:47] for instance he said "the Mono camp" [15:47] anyone "pro-mono", whether you want them on your side or not [15:47] who does that refer to if not us? [15:48] ok, well, then he needs to change his language because it seems to me an attempt to attack Mono's reputation [15:49] in a similar vein to the way you just said "like" Roy, even though someone can have an unfavourable opinion of mono and still think that particular project is outrageous [15:49] unfortunately people feel very passionately about this [15:50] james_w, touche [15:50] I agree that he could be more clear that he is being attacked by just some crazy internet people who argue for mono, rather than by the mono project and its useful contributors [15:50] gavin___, I don't think he needs to change his language. He disagrees/has concerns with the licensing of the Mono technology. He is welcome to express that regardless if it puts Mono in a poor light or not. [15:50] but it's not just mono that suffers from that particular issue [15:51] gavin___, Ubuntu is a great OS but it has its dark spots too. If someone were to choose to discuss them, I couldn't claim they were trying to ruin the reputation of Ubuntu if they were simply being truthful. [15:51] cody-somerville, note that I am not here about the licensing concerns, but about his language [15:52] and his approach (which is very flametastic) [15:52] arguably it's just opinionated [15:52] gavin___, Its inflaming for you because *you* disagree with his opinion. [15:52] not at all [15:53] for example, there was an article a while back by I think ti was Bruce Byfield, who criticized Mono's licensing [15:53] but did it in such as it was not offending [15:53] nor flamey [15:54] is this on topic here? [15:54] Absolutely. [15:54] no scheduled meeting even [15:55] That isn't a prerequisite to have a discussion in this channel when it isn't being used by a party that has scheduled it [15:56] gavin___, I think thats dangerous grounds to try and get into - moderating content based on the possibility it might upset someone. [15:56] if this was the first flametastic post by him, I wouldn't be here :) [15:56] but it's the 4th or 5th [15:56] gavin___, I think you just need to get some thicker skin. :) [15:56] gavin___, Stop reading his posts if need be [15:57] in any case, like you or james stated, perhaps I am reading too much into it because I am a mono contributor [15:57] this is not a productive discussion, and would be better served by an email to the Community Council. [15:57] gavin___: or write opposing coherent blog posts? [15:57] hello [15:57] Good idea popey [15:57] hey [15:57] popey: I'm not an ubuntu contributor and even if I were, I'd rather not turn planet ubuntu into a flamefest [15:58] gavin___: there's a scheduled meeting starting now, I suggest that you email the CC if you still feel you want to raise the issue [15:58] ok, well thanks for your time [15:58] gavin___: "Community Council List" , [15:58] gavin___, Don't let people get to you if you think what you're doing is right ;) [15:58] cody: thanks :) [15:59] * slangasek waves [16:01] * rickspencer3 wave [16:02] * robbiew gives a fist-to-chest pound :P [16:02] pgraner, pitti, Riddell, heno, sbeattie, Hobbsee, ScottK: ping [16:02] * pitti says "hello" again [16:02] hi [16:02] slangasek: here [16:03] hi slangasek [16:03] pitti: oh, yes - sorry, lost you amid another meeting :) [16:04] ok, as this was short notice anyway, let's not idle too long waiting for others to show up; if folks aren't here, we'll fill in the missing pieces later [16:04] hello [16:05] #startmeeting [16:05] Meeting started at 10:05. The chair is slangasek. [16:05] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [16:05] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-06-05 agenda [16:05] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-06-05 agenda [16:05] [TOPIC] QA team [16:05] New Topic: QA team [16:06] Hi [16:06] We have laid out our Karmic road map from the UDS talks [16:06] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap [16:06] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap [16:06] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap [16:07] great :) [16:07] Some cert test are running http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current [16:07] but I don't have a detailed report as fader is on leave today [16:07] [LINK] http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current cert tests for karmic [16:07] LINK received: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current cert tests for karmic [16:08] sbeattie: can you comment on the state of regressions? [16:08] that they're happening at all this early is welcome news, IMHO [16:08] right, we'll just keep the running from here on is the plan [16:08] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential lists only a few bugs filed so far as karmic regressions [16:08] half of them by me, I think :) [16:09] not too early in the cycle for using that tag... [16:09] and will expand cover to Live CDs, upgrades and more VMs this cycle [16:09] (and LP's new UI changes make it easier than ever, yay!) [16:09] is everyone over jet lag and ready for alpha-2 candidate testing next week? [16:09] yay! [16:10] \o/ [16:10] especially since cjwatson heroically fixed the desktop CDs [16:10] yes! [16:10] this morning I did some downsizing of the Ubuntu CDs [16:10] heno: anything else that needs discussing? [16:10] now if only the buildds would work :) [16:10] slangasek: no, that's it thanks [16:10] ok, thank you :) [16:10] [TOPIC] Desktop [16:10] New Topic: Desktop [16:10] pitti, rickspencer3: how goes it? [16:11] I summarized the current karmic plan on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus [16:11] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus [16:11] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus [16:11] of course pitti has crafted a great overview of our plans post-UDS [16:11] we have one a2 RC bug, which has a workaround and Riddell will work on it [16:11] karmic will be a fun cycle, desktop-wise [16:11] changing half of the system [16:12] specs are still drafting, so some bits might get dropped [16:12] wow, banshee by default? doesn't that bring in half of mono again? [16:12] that's one of the less firm changes yet :) [16:12] (we can take that offline, anyway :) [16:12] (pending drafting, approval, etc.) [16:12] there's also concerns about memory usage [16:13] heh, "Halsectomy" [16:13] my current main activity, yes [16:13] making good progress, and earning some credits upstream ;) [16:13] where do acpi events land on that roadmap? [16:13] (hint killing acpi-support hint) [16:13] "input events FTW" [16:14] i. e. they should all be converted to proper input events in the kernel [16:14] and I guess most of them are now [16:14] ah, yes [16:14] it's just tricky to verify without the hw [16:15] * slangasek nods [16:15] no other questions from me at this point; anyone else have questions about the Desktop roadmap? [16:15] pitti: or any other concerns you want to highlight? [16:16] not right now [16:16] once we flip on KMS by default, we need lots of testing [16:16] but that will be properly announced [16:16] in terms of bluetooth ... [16:16] there's kind of split non-ownership of the whole space right now [16:16] * robbiew runs away [16:17] neither the desktop team or the foundations team has the resources to fully drive it [16:17] ah; asac is drafting the spec though? [16:18] I think he's set as drafter now, yes [16:18] but I don't think he has the time to fully own it [16:18] slangasek: but there are clearly non-desktop components to bluetooth [16:18] do we have someone in the community who could own it instead? superm1 has been very good about bluetooth fixes generally [16:18] superm1 was willing to help [16:18] robbiew: sure, the kernel bits ;) [16:18] heh [16:18] yes, I think he is interested in doing that [16:18] * slangasek passes that buck right on down [16:19] foundations = the bridge between desktop and kernel..where the bucks pass by :P [16:19] slangasek: no action needed right now, but I thought you should be aware of the status [16:19] (and everybody else too) [16:19] rickspencer3: perhaps you could talk to him about taking over the spec formally, then, while keeping it on the desktop roadmap? [16:20] slangasek: i can do tat [16:20] that [16:20] I think robbiew already has [16:20] ok [16:20] * robbiew adds to his ToDo list ;) [16:21] [ACTION] robbiew to discuss with superm1 about blueprint:desktop-karmic-bluetooth-stack [16:21] ACTION received: robbiew to discuss with superm1 about blueprint:desktop-karmic-bluetooth-stack [16:21] :) [16:21] pitti, rickspencer3: thanks [16:21] [TOPIC] Mobile [16:21] New Topic: Mobile [16:21] oh, er [16:21] backing up [16:21] slangasek: no mobile ;) [16:22] the desktop roadmap doesn't make any mention of any UI plans from the DX team this cycle [16:22] ah, he dodged that one, didn't he ;) [16:22] oops [16:22] slangasek: okay, I'll talk to dbarth about that [16:23] can they set up their own roadmap? [16:23] they should own their own roadmap this time, I think [16:23] +1 [16:23] but if it's better for them, we can do it [16:23] I know about the U1 integration, and some packaging issues around that [16:23] well, DX isn't an Ubuntu team, it's a Canonical team [16:23] slangasek: will include a report next time [16:23] while I'm happy to have them maintaining their own roadmap, I want to make sure the changes are also in the *Ubuntu* roadmap [16:24] which I guess means desktop :) [16:24] slangasek: let me know how you best like to see it handled [16:24] sure [16:24] we can discuss it offline though, and have it ready for next release meeting [16:24] sounds good, thanks [16:24] anyway, mobile - I do have some notes from Loïc, which I'll dump quickly [16:25] * MID image moving to community maintenance; Emmet and people from the Mer project will coordinate the move; cdimage folks in mobile team will help with the technical changes [16:25] * UNR: karmic: no large update, still 1.0 stuff; jaunty: some SRUs are needed but a couple happened so far [16:25] * ARM: need to move from Babbage 1 (TO1) to Babbage 2 (TO2) -- newer hardware -- implies patching some places simultaneously (kernel, redboot, cdimage); kernel changes expected to land for A3 [16:25] * specs: some drafted, most still drafting [16:26] any concerns about any of that? [16:26] pgraner: your guys are in the loop on the ARM kernel changes needed, I assume? [16:26] slangasek: yep, A3 is the target for the initial FreeScale patches [16:27] ok, good [16:27] slangasek: mobile does the redboot changes [16:27] * slangasek nods [16:27] [TOPIC] Kernel [16:27] New Topic: Kernel [16:27] * ogra is playing with that, might be ready before A2 but without kernel ... [16:27] segging right in, then :) [16:27] slangasek: yea [16:27] 2.6.31 is the kernel target [16:28] how solid is that target at this point? [16:28] hearsay at UDS was varied :) [16:28] No expected issues, 30 will be closing soon and we have an number of patches we are pushing into the .31 merge window [16:28] i.e. AppArmor [16:29] whee [16:29] what was the liveCD benefit that .31 was going to bring us? [16:29] cjwatson: ? [16:29] yes it was... [16:29] the mount --union one? [16:29] probably [16:29] \o/ [16:29] right [16:29] although there was talk of backporting that [16:30] cjwatson: is what we have with 2.6.30 right now viable for release, or is it all rickety and only serving until .31 is in? [16:30] i.e., if the kernel roadmap changes and we don't go with .31 for some reason, what are the implications? [16:30] jury's still out, I think. It's working OK for me in KVM but I haven't heard reports on real hw yet, and I know ogra said unionfs-fuse is pretty slow for him [16:30] TBH I would rather we backported mount --union in that event [16:30] on ltsp though [16:31] ok [16:31] I'm not hugely happy with doing it in userspace and regard it as a stopgap [16:31] might be the nbd/unionfs combo [16:31] pgraner: is that on your guys' radar then, for any .30/.31 decision yet to be made? [16:31] or are you confident at this point that .31 is it? [16:32] we are putting all of our resource into getting .31 into shape. [16:32] ok [16:32] if it starts to become unstable, we are prepared to do what is necessary to make .30 work [16:32] good-o [16:33] are there any major changes in .31 that you think we should get a heads-up on? (or if you don't have them to hand now, perhaps a report on that at a later meeting?) [16:33] we are still churning thru UDS specs once we get done we will have a "plan b" for the kernel [16:33] * slangasek nods [16:33] from the desktop team's perspective, .31 would certainly be a win [16:33] wrt. GEM/KMS improvements, etc. [16:33] we will give you a report, I will be doing a release status wiki for the kernel for this cycle [16:34] excellent :) [16:34] pgraner: thanks much! [16:34] The only other big thing right now is ext4 by default [16:34] with karmic being the Fedora of Ubuntu releases anyway, it might be a good time? [16:34] We talked with Ted upstream and he will be assisting on any issues found [16:34] is that looking good for making the switch in karmic, then? [16:35] have we tested ext4+grub2, btw? [16:35] from the kernel teams perspective ... yes [16:35] Yes but not as much as we would like [16:35] you'll get plenty of testing with a2 ;-) [16:35] cjwatson: is ext4 the default in a2? [16:35] cking is putting together a better testing plan complete with image [16:35] slangasek: yes [16:35] wow, awesome :) [16:36] cjwatson: including for server ? [16:36] cjwatson: grub2 in a2 as well? [16:37] ttx: yes, currently; it's much harder to make that vary than to make it the same [16:37] pitti: let's wait 'til we get to the foundations slot ;-) [16:37] cjwatson: wfm [16:37] (sorry) [16:37] shall we move on to foundations now? :) [16:37] * pitti is in "bring on the crack" mood [16:37] I'm good [16:37] [TOPIC] Foundations [16:37] New Topic: Foundations [16:37] we're done :P [16:38] I think we're a bit behind on spec drafting, although there's been a reasonable amount of activity there; should be in a better position next time to give a more complete report [16:38] agreed [16:38] * robbiew needs to pull together the "list" and then sort it out [16:38] the big things are bzr development, boot speed, KMS support [16:38] grub2 by default [16:38] i586 switch [16:39] in the short term, are there any potentially hairy issues for alpha-2? We have working liveCDs now (thanks, cjwatson!) and need to beat them down to size [16:39] so, for alpha 2, we'll have ext4 by default and will also switch to grub2 (hi, pitti) [16:39] \o/ [16:39] grub2 isn't entirely where we want it to be, but might as well get started [16:39] (we won't be upgrading existing systems to it) [16:39] we need to do _some_ breakage, karmic is way too stable still [16:39] who wants the action item to document grub2 and ext4 for the a2 tech overview? [16:39] I'll take that [16:39] [ACTION] cjwatson to draft a2 tech overview items on grub2 and ext4 by default [16:39] ACTION received: cjwatson to draft a2 tech overview items on grub2 and ext4 by default [16:40] when a2 lands, we need to do matching rebuilds with i486 vs. i586 [16:40] which I'll coordinate with Adam [16:40] cjwatson: is "not doing upgrades" the only thing with grub2 that's lagging? [16:40] that will support the i586 switch decision [16:40] * slangasek nods [16:40] slangasek: various things like DX team support (a "boot this OS next time" selector) [16:40] ah, yes [16:41] I don't think there's anything critical missing, or I wouldn't be suggesting switching [16:41] is password support still outstanding upstream? [16:41] yes, I believe so [16:42] something we should escalate with them? That's the one major feature regression I'm aware of still with grub2 vs. grub1 [16:42] cjwatson: will the results of the i386 vs i586 testing be posted somewhere? [16:42] so not production-ready yet, but we need to start shaking out boot issues [16:42] indeed [16:42] slangasek: I'll do that [16:42] calc: "somewhere", yes [16:42] not much point otherwise :) [16:42] [ACTION] cjwatson to escalate grub2 password support regression with upstream [16:42] ACTION received: cjwatson to escalate grub2 password support regression with upstream [16:42] its i486 vs 586, no ? [16:42] I'm not aware of anything else landing for a2, unless we get enthusiastic and shove in rsyslog too [16:43] half the team has been on holiday anyway :) [16:44] robbiew: anything else you know of? [16:44] no, not really [16:45] will be better prepared next week....wiki page and everything! [16:45] looking forward to it :) [16:45] [TOPIC] Server [16:45] New Topic: Server [16:45] ttx: hi [16:45] hey :) [16:45] Standing in for dendrobates. [16:45] So we are currently drafting our server-karmic-* specs, then dendrobates will prioritize/assign based on https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Roadmaps/9.10/ServerEdition, because we probably won't be able to do everything [16:46] The big thing is Eucalyptus (again) with new version, extra power management features, move to main along with hundreds of deps, fit on CD [16:46] Other cloudy stuff should make it as well, like virtual appliance. [16:46] However we still hope to be able to do some other things as well, like more directory integration. [16:47] ttx: it will be nice to have a public wiki roadmap page at some point too, fwiw [16:47] slangasek: sure, once we have wed out what we won't do. [16:47] yep, that's fair [16:47] On the a2 side of things, the upgrade to Kerberos 1.7 should have broken likewise-open, as planned. It will stay broken until we move to 5.2 (unreleased yet). [16:47] slangasek: I can confirm breakage on Monday if you want to list it in the known issues. [16:48] [ACTION] ttx to confirm whether likewise-open is broken with krb5 1.7, for documentation in the a2 tech overview [16:48] ACTION received: ttx to confirm whether likewise-open is broken with krb5 1.7, for documentation in the a2 tech overview [16:48] ttx: appreciated :) [16:48] We don't expect Likewise to release 5.2 until July at best [16:48] ok [16:49] so I'll make sure to pressure them to avoid Junty-like delays and exceptions [16:49] ttx: anything wrong with packaging a git head snapshot? that'll also help them with testing? [16:49] pitti: the kerberos 1.7 part isn't even written yet, but yes, I'll start with early snapshots [16:50] ttx: ah, I misunderstood then [16:51] sorry guys, I need to run; rickspencer3 will stay around [16:51] ttx: anything else we need to know about? [16:51] pitti: thanks [16:51] slangasek: no. We don't have any a2 bugs [16:52] I saw a couple of specs had been targeted to alpha2 by kirkland [16:52] slangasek: interesting. Checking... [16:52] wow, brave :) [16:52] slangasek: yeah, daily builds of kvm, qemu/kvm repackaging [16:53] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-karmic-kvm-qemu-packaging, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-karmic-pristine-daily-virt-builds [16:53] kirkland: on track? :) [16:53] * heno needs to run too; sbeattie will cover QA [16:53] heno: thanks! [16:53] slangasek: heh, this week was less productive than I previously planned :-) [16:53] slangasek: too much time spec-writing, catching up on 2 weeks of email/bugs :-) [16:53] kirkland: retarget for alpha3 ? [16:53] slangasek: i'm goign to bump those to a-3 [16:53] sounds good [16:54] (I know the feeling...) [16:54] ttx: thanks for standing in [16:54] [TOPIC] MOTU [16:54] New Topic: MOTU [16:54] slangasek: np [16:54] not sure we have a motu-release representative here today [16:54] ScottK: around? [16:54] bad time for him [16:55] and i didnt hear about election of the karmic representatives yet ... that usually happens at some point [16:56] [ACTION] slangasek to touch base with ScottK about universe plans [16:56] ACTION received: slangasek to touch base with ScottK about universe plans [16:56] [TOPIC] Known regressions [16:56] New Topic: Known regressions [16:56] slangasek: pitti asked me to pass on some info about the desktop CD size, is this the time to mention? [16:57] rickspencer3: few more minutes [16:57] k [16:57] [LINK] http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha1#Known issues [16:57] LINK received: http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha1#Known issues [16:57] one relevant issue there, "English language support is not installed by default" [16:57] cjwatson: I assume this is fixed for a2, do you happen to know for sure? [16:58] pretty sure that's fixed, I ripped out the workaround over two weeks ago [16:58] ok [16:58] and openoffice.org-l10n no longer shows up as uninstallable [16:58] so I think we're good there [16:58] other than that then, we just have the usual regression-potential queue; be sure to tag your bugs, etc., etc. [16:59] desktop team is doing quite well at fielding mine :) [16:59] [TOPIC] ISO size [16:59]