[00:13] anyone want to work for Microsoft? I interviewed with them today and they are looking for more open source people (community leaders and developers)...they are a great company! [00:15] nixternal: seriously? [00:15] nixternal: i would take an internship with them [00:15] ya, they just called me with their first offer to hire me [00:15] i just interviewed with them this morning [00:16] wow, that is really quick turn around [00:16] but seriously, if they are looking for a research intern in open source.. i would do it [00:16] an interview that came about due to an argument the guy who interviewed me and I had a couple of weeks ago :p [00:16] I will pass on that info :) [00:16] haha sweet, and congratulations by the way [00:16] where will you be moving to? [00:16] you know though, you can't do nothing for KDE or Ubuntu, or any other open source project right? [00:17] you mean as an intern? [00:17] if I were to take it, right here...they have a nice big campus 15 minutes from my house that has the midwest division of engineers [00:17] wow, you can't beat 15 minutes to work [00:17] seele: as anything...the NDA you sign prohibits you from working in the open source community unless directed to do so by them, and it also prohibits you from working in an open source community for up to 2 years after leaving [00:18] nixternal: interesting. i have a colleague/friend who interned at MS research and she didnt have to stop working on her open source project [00:18] left turn, right turn, left turn, right turn...there :) [00:18] maybe interns don't get hit then [00:18] well if the case, then sign me up [00:19] I will ask about it...I really don't want to work for them...could you imagine the community backlash :) [00:19] but i wouldnt work for microsoft if they disallowed me to work in floss 2 years after leaving.. that's rediculous [00:19] they want to make sure you forget their code I guess [00:20] dear god Riddell.. showing off a bit of chest in those pictures? [00:20] yikes.. there;s some leg too [00:20] * seele removes all her flickr feeds [00:20] seele: nhandler might know, he worked (intern I am guessing) last year [00:20] nixternal: well he is still working in ubuntu so i guess it is safe :) [00:20] yup [00:21] as a matter of fact, he still has the MS laptop don't you nhandler? :p [00:21] hah [00:21] MS doesn't offer that much money initially either... [00:21] it's bugged! [00:21] nixternal: Yep [00:22] Has a nice "MS Asset" on the bottom [00:22] nhandler: what was the extent of the NDA you signed? [00:22] the NDA I was showed would be about the size of the agreement one would sign if they joined Metallica [00:22] first line states, "Please have your lawyer review this with you." [00:22] nixternal: It wasn't much. It was mainly to keep me from revealing any of the personal/private files I might come across than to keep me from talking about what I was working on [00:23] ya, it is funny, the position is for an open source product/project/community manager position...OPEN SOURCE, yet the NDA says I am not allowed to publically state the work I am involved in w/o approval [00:23] haha [00:24] Does it only say you cannot discuss it? Does it prohibit you from releasing the open source code to other people? [00:25] I haven't read it all the way through, and won't get the chance to unless I accept the position [00:25] it was funny, I was actually a bit of an asshole in the interview, calling them on their BS, and their answer was always, "We aren't allowed to talk about that just yet" [00:26] but I do know the position absolutely prohibits me from furthering open source projects not controlled by MS [00:26] * nhandler would never be able to stand a job like that [00:26] imagine though, if you worked for MS, people in the open source world aren't going to trust you working on their projects anyways [00:27] * kb9vqf thinks Microsofts new strategy for killing FOSS is actually kind of funny [00:27] ya, they are trying to hire FOSS people now [00:28] I didn't send them a resume or anything....the guy ran into me, or vice-versa at a recent business thing at the local college [00:28] then he reviewed my website, blog, LP and all of that...he had a list of commits I had since like 2000 [00:28] I was like, "Damn, I don't even remember that stuff" [00:29] * rickspencer3 *cough cough* [00:29] They were probably just making sure they were going to try to buy out someone important enough :wink: [00:30] rickspencer3: you want to work for MS? I can hook you up :p [00:30] uh ... I worked there for almost 10 years [00:30] it was actually a very entertaining experience [00:30] * rickspencer3 ducks [00:30] I quit so I could work in open source [00:30] rickspencer3: haha, I contracted for them for 2, so I know [00:30] * kb9vqf throws an hard CD case of NT server at rickspencer3 [00:30] they weren't real happy about that [00:31] why are their NDAs like freaking major league baseball contracts? [00:31] that thing is insane [00:31] because they fundamentally don't get it [00:31] they think everyone is driven by the same motivations in life that they are [00:32] I did give them the response I was hoping to give, when asked, "What do you expect out of this interview?" I responded with "Some free stuff of course, and how about $1500 to purchase a new PC?" :) [00:32] lol [00:32] :) [00:32] I think they're looking for people to help them compete with *buntu, actually [00:33] nixternal: i dont care. i dont plan on ever working for microsoft. but an internship with them is gold on my c.v. [00:33] 3 months of sin in my life will open opportunities to do more good later on [00:33] seele: are you serious? [00:33] rickspencer3: Red Hat in the server market, but they have Novell, so now they stated they want to help *mold* the open source desktop market [00:33] like doing usability? [00:33] rickspencer3: research, not practicum [00:34] hahaha, you go into microsoft for usability, but leave with disability [00:34] rickspencer3: and yes i am serious that i would go to microsoft for 3 months for a research interhsip [00:34] with MS research? one of my best friends work in the social computing wing of MS research [00:34] i would prefer IBM or Nokia, but a poor PhD student can't be picky :) [00:34] he basically invented twitter like 2 years before twitter, but no one took it seriously [00:34] rickspencer3: seriously? what is his name? [00:34] Scott Counts [00:34] * seele wonders if paula bach worked with him [00:35] I dunno [00:35] hmm.. i'll have to ask her about him tomorrow [00:35] He's like one of my closest buds, actually [00:35] though don't see him much now that they have baby #2 :) [00:35] hmm.. so how much wine do i have to send you to get introduced? :) [00:35] I would do that for you in a heart beat [00:35] no problems [00:35] you know there was a wordpress theme when wordpress came out that provided the same functionality as twitter web...I accidentally came upon it last night, from like 2005 or earlier [00:35] think it was wordpress [00:35] I'll call him right now if you want :) [00:35] maybe one of the Nukes [00:36] rickspencer3: wow, seriously though. it would be greatly appreciated [00:36] (the intro, not the phone call asap ;) [00:36] let me msg you so we can chat [00:36] cool [01:17] with latest intel video drivers, blender acts up like shit again, no menus and so on T_T [01:18] revert back to older version? [01:18] it was more than enough that jaunty sucks hard with intel video cards, hope karmic won't be fail like that as well [01:21] if I wanted to backup and delete my .kde folder to start fresh but didnt want to lost my kopete/kontact settings, how would I go about doing that? What would I NOT want to delete? [01:24] harolddong: ~/.kde/share/config/kopeterc and ~/.kde/share/apps/kopete/ [01:24] for kopete anyway [01:25] kontact is a bit trickier since it's several apps [01:25] similar pattern for kmail, kaddressbook, etc [01:25] but what kontact and all of its related apps? would I just looks the same files for kmail, akregator, kaddressbook, etc? [01:25] yeah [01:26] okay I'll give it a shot thanks [01:26] yw [01:30] <_Groo_> hi/2 all [01:46] how would I backup the tags? where they stored? [01:47] tags? [01:48] nepomuk tags.... is it just .kde/share/apps/nepomuk? [01:50] <_Groo_> harolddong: if im not mistaken they are stored in nepomuk mysql engine [01:51] nepomuk doesn't use mysql [01:51] but it does look like that's the correct dir [01:52] (it uses either redland or sesame2 as of KDE 4.2) [01:54] so if I just backup the folder and any rc files it should work fine when I restore? [01:54] yup [01:54] you might wanna keep a copy of the whole thing in case [01:54] yeah I plan to [01:54] thanks [01:59] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: ah, i was confusing it... you are right... [01:59] it's confusing enough that everything uses a different DB schema [01:59] akonadi uses mysql [01:59] amarok uses mysqle [02:00] nepomuk can use 3 DBs now [02:00] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: btw kde 4.2 , kde 4.3 nepomuk with strigi is broken by default.. you have to symlink libjvm.so to a working jdk [02:00] <_Groo_> or you wont have a fast enough backend, aka sesame2 [02:15] <_Groo_> cant wait for amarok master to open up :) [03:29] * ScottK notes http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/06/building-brand-together.html and hopes some Kubuntu person will take that ball and run with it. [03:36] interesting! [06:57] * seele yawns [06:58] ugh.. 2am? [08:38] seele: that's for my people behind kde interview, I was told I needed something for the ladies === ejat is now known as e-jat [10:00] lex79: what is the news on fotowall? [13:06] Riddell: stable SIP & PyQt4 releases are out, BTW. [14:00] is karmic not yet on KDE 4.3 (beta)? [14:12] it is [15:10] cbr: I see it now on the commit list, thanks. [15:36] Sime: karmic is generally but not kdebindings yet, good about sip and pyqt we'll get cracking on those [15:37] Riddell: I'm trying to figure out polkitqt with Python, and wondered if it would be easy to test on karmic in a virtualbox. [15:38] should be [15:56] updated intel video drivers recently and blender 2.49 started acting up again....can someone restore the drivers to an older commit? [15:57] we're not X I'm afraid, we are but humble KDE packagers [15:58] mhm, i asked in ubuntu devel as well [15:58] ubuntu keeps shitting on it's intel users ffs [16:01] man, i was trying out an opensuse appliance from the web browser... bumped into a virtual keyboard plasmoid.. i was so happy.. [16:01] until i've seen that it loses focus on the field/application when you wanna type in something *sigh* [16:02] useless [16:08] plasmate? [16:09] hmm i think so [16:09] yup [16:09] it loses focus :D [16:09] xD [16:09] too bad, it was looking awesome [16:09] seriously, I will poke the dev [16:10] poke him, linux so sucks with tablet pc's [16:10] linux sucks in most areas actually [16:10] oh well [16:10] I have a revu-ready package but I didn't upload since I haven't tested it yet, and it's so useless [16:10] revu? [16:10] yup, I wanted it to be included :P [16:11] oh i see [16:11] but users would be like "o lol why I can't type" [16:11] no point in that [16:11] i'm trying to poke dragonplayer devs for quite a long time now [16:11] LOL [16:12] http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/Plasmaboard?content=101822 [16:12] check comments [16:12] because that shit application drags kde down, in kde 4.3 even gwenview is a way better video player [16:12] i see [16:13] oh well, it doesn't work even with putting it on panel [16:14] true, i tested it on the panel [16:14] hmm, check changelog [16:14] i checked [16:14] argh [16:14] patch for 4.2.4 [16:15] and I'm running 4.3 beta [16:15] me too [16:15] smplayer should be the default :) [16:15] i don't like smplayer [16:15] valgaav++ [16:15] it's the best nix video player just like amarok is the best audio player :) [16:15] i think vlc should be the default, it's popular, has features and it's cross platform already, best video player [16:16] well new vlc GUI still would need some love from usability specialist [16:16] dragonplayer is so unmaintained and the lamest player of them all, i like simplicity but it's epically buggy.. and lacks subtitles [16:16] it's better then the old wxwidget one [16:16] but still IMHO not htere [16:17] well, vlc gui is OK compared to dragon player, which has a shitty volume control widget.. and controls on the upper part by default [16:17] (i know i can drag those, but would be cooler by default on bottom) [16:18] i think i need to start blogging and flame the crap out of open source, mainly kde and them gnome, along with mockups [16:18] I actually didn't play much with Dragonplayer since it even could't display ass/ssa subs styles [16:19] it can't display any kind of subs as far as i know [16:19] DreadKnight: linuxhater already did that [16:19] valgaav_: i know, but that guy is lame, lacks mockups and he hates this shit [16:19] i'll do things in a more productive style [16:20] * ScottK wonders what any of this has to do with Kubuntu development? [16:21] random chat in #kubuntu-offtopic please [16:22] well, kubuntu includes kde at least :P so not that offtopic [16:22] ok.. whatever [16:35] Quintasan: that plasmoid really should let kvkbd do all the work [16:36] apachelogger: I think the guy will be shocked by this fact :P [16:36] s/the/this [16:36] plasmoids make more sense than some of the applications [16:36] well, obviously :P [16:36] *sob* I get thrown out of kde lately at least once a day after a window pops up saying "could not start ksmserver. please check your installation." [16:37] any ideas what's wrong? [16:37] plasmoids should be ways of visiualization [16:37] it seems to happen pretty randomly [16:37] meaning there should be a common lib for an app and a plasmoid [16:37] apachelogger: i agree [16:37] * Nightrose just lost work because of that again :( [16:37] and if there is not and the plasmoid is just reimplementing the app it is rather wasteful [16:37] Nightrose: happened to a buddy as well [16:37] same applies for apps reimplementing plasmoids though [16:38] Nightrose: upstream screwup it seems [16:38] apachelogger: with that ideology we could kill gnome/gtk devs as well :D [16:38] there is a bug report somewhere [16:38] it is 100% reproducable with 4.2.4 + sudo kate [16:38] rgreening sez it works in 4.3 though [16:38] ok looking for the report [16:38] thx [16:39] this is pretty nasty tbh [16:39] DreadKnight: well, TBH the main reason why gnome was around has been resolved, so .... [16:39] the we-have-a-different-attitude is the only thing left that keeps gnome from imploding :P [16:40] i hope google will just stop throwing money at gnome gsoc projects and fire the ex-mozilla guy making chrome with gtk for linux >_< [16:40] they should just have made their own toolkit anyway [16:41] would be way easier than going half-way into that direction and the other half into having gtk do the work on linux [16:41] i like the croll bar google uses on wave and picasa, kicks ass [16:41] if they would have used qt... release 0.1 for all OS's.. oh well [16:43] well, google isn't much of a gpl fan :P [16:44] scroll* [16:44] well, google wave is going to be one of the best things on the internet soon.. and it's open source [16:45] google do not want to use an toolkit in future they want to do everything in a browser ... IMO. [16:45] it was a gtk vs qt issue [16:46] they picked the wrong toolkit [16:46] But I think we're a bit OT here ... [16:46] y [16:46] DreadKnight: it's not about open source, it is about what kind of open source [16:46] in general google does tend towards more restrictive [16:47] which is one argument pro gtk [16:47] also the ex-mozilla guy knows his way through that [16:47] so that is another pro [16:47] yeah, they shouldn't have hired him for the job [16:47] well [16:47] why not? :P [16:47] since qt is lgpl that shouldn't be a problem nor? [16:47] emonkey: it wasn't at the time [16:47] gnome/gtk needs to die already :P [16:48] i see [16:48] are we talking about chromium? :) [16:48] yeah [16:48] emonkey: the thing is, AFAIK they have a pretty much own toolkit for windows anyway [16:48] competition is good so gtk/gnome is good [16:48] gtk/gnome is not good [16:48] they should just have designed that crossOS to begin with and all would be a lot better :P [16:48] one of the chromium developers knows they picked the wrong toolkit, and because of the toolkit they chose, he backlashed against the open source community [16:49] apachelogger: could be yes [16:49] as long as there are many average toolkits, only confuses people trying to adopt linux, like developers and users alike [16:49] we don't need n toolkits and n DE's, that freedom of choice is retarded, we need one great alternative to closes source / commercial operating systems and software [16:50] it's about what the market needs though :P [16:50] gnome 3 is incredibly epic fail in design atm [16:50] matter of taste [16:50] no matter of taste! [16:51] KDE allows for customization, it's like a toolkit to build your own 'workflow' [16:51] right, it's a matter of requirements [16:51] I agree on that ... competition is good but we already have mac and windows to compete ... then again guess it's offtopic in this chanel [16:51] gnome 3 is just stiff and stupid [16:51] yes! compete with mac and windows; linux desktop share is a fucking joke [16:51] !language [16:51] Please watch your language and topic to help keep this channel family friendly. [16:51] ooh, it worked [16:51] :) [16:52] Riddell: must be the first time ever ;-) [16:53] btw something more on topic ... what's the situation with OOo and kde4 integration ... any hopes for karmic ? [16:54] O_o [16:55] valgaav_: we're hopeful, shtylman_ is working on the code and yuriy is working on the icons [16:55] firefox could use an integration plugin as well, since konqueror is so lame [16:55] oooh [16:55] DreadKnight: can't you do something else than just bashing around? [16:55] if kubuntu has open office and not koffice, it should have pidgin and firefox as well [16:55] Riddell: is that kde4 integration gonna be pushed upstream, or is is kubuntu-specific? [16:56] Sput: of course it will [16:56] Mamarok: i am doing stuff [16:56] cool [16:56] there's no way we're going to maintain part of openoffice on our own [16:56] I was already giving up hope for ooo to gain kde4 integration :) [16:56] that's great :) [16:57] Mamarok++ [16:58] Riddell: yaw :) [17:09] DreadKnight: We're looking into shipping arora as our default browser for Karmic if it gets some needed improvements. [17:11] ScottK: great, too bad rekonq dude likes to duplicate effort and as far as i know, going for kde4 integration as well ... [17:12] ScottK let me know if you guys need mockups or graphic design elements (icons?) [17:12] DreadKnight: It's free software. If people want to scratch an itch in a certain way, I don't think we should complain about it. [17:12] I'm not sure what it was that was needed. It's in a spec somewhere. [17:13] i know, but useless code duplication is not that cool heh [17:16] Personally, I think a certain amount of diversity in the free software ecosystem is a good and healthy thing. [17:18] maybe with a higher market share for the desktop :D [17:19] what I find interesting is we bicker about this stuff quite a bit, and everyone is like "Look and Mac and Windows" in terms of competing. I don't care what side of the fence you are on, code is duplicated everywhere, wheels are constantly reinvented...go through a site like download.com and find a music app, there are probably about 100x more than what we have [17:20] why is this whole "reinventing the wheel" so prevelant in the open source world? why do people keep acting like it is a bad thing all of the time? why do people keep thinking it happens here only? [17:20] I think our time could be better spent working than arguing, as there is no way to have just 1 choice in software, impossible. Nobody has it and nobody will [17:21] because here it's daunting! linux has small market share for the desktop [17:21] you can have one choice of software, as long you can customize it like crap (so that means better qt with time) [17:21] all we need is that 5% to be the winner, because we will never, mark my word, NEVER, fix bug #1 [17:21] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 (Timeout) [17:22] I think it will fix itself in the long run. [17:22] for fixing bug number 1, some choice within foss world must die imho :D [17:22] If you truly believe that FOSS software development works better than proprietary development, then you just need patience. [17:22] more united people = better stuff [17:22] will never happen [17:23] DreadKnight: Impossible to force. When something is enough a better idea, it'll happen naturally. [17:23] I love the fact there are like 5 plan9 WMs right now :) [17:23] ScottK i agree [17:23] Don't sweat it. It'll come in time. [17:23] more united people != better stuff [17:23] the more awesome kde is, the more people will attract .. and word of mouth :) [17:24] nixternal: depends on leadership and management! [17:24] point made, look at the auto manufacturers, look at Microsoft [17:24] and vision/goals [17:24] how are people reacting to Kubuntu Jaunty? [17:24] do they love it? [17:24] rickspencer3: not as bad as Intrepid :) [17:24] rickspencer3: so far I have read great reviews of it [17:24] kubuntu website is ambigue.. not even telling what the heck is kubuntu [17:24] heh [17:24] neversfelde: good [17:24] oops, tab completion error [17:24] hehe [17:24] kubuntu is so dropping down in popularity [17:24] nixternal: good to hear :) [17:24] A fair amount of hate and discontent about kpackagekit and the NM applet. [17:24] Generally good though. [17:25] right, what ScottK said, other than those 2 [17:25] I suppose there's always something that's not as good as the other parts of a system [17:25] though a couple of the reviews were on wired desktops, so we didn't get smashed for NM :) [17:25] heh [17:25] i like kpackagekit but.. no one click install atm in kubuntu, software sources not implemented nicely in kpackagekit and no nice category view [17:25] I like apt-get :p [17:25] apt-get is for geeks, scares market share [17:25] moving to kpackagekit was a bold move [17:26] I think it will pay off in time [17:26] i like kpackagekit, adept was fugly [17:26] I find it odd that I enjoy KDE and GNOME as much as I do, especially when I feel that GUIs get in the way [17:26] yes, it will pay off [17:26] ScottK: any progress on the netbook version? [17:26] rickspencer3: I think we need to be careful as we move forward and KDE moves up out of the KDE 4 transition not to have more stuff like that. [17:26] people like jaunty more than intrepid, many users, who switched to gnome are returning. Well, they do not like kpackagekit and nm, but they see, that there was a need to use something new [17:26] thats good :) [17:26] rickspencer3: Yes. We have a spec now and Tonio is working on some stuff. [17:26] ScottK - coool [17:26] with time kde4 and little will hopefully 'settle down' [17:26] rickspencer3: Also looks like upstream is making good progress on the netbook shell. [17:27] sweet [17:27] and linux* argh [17:27] * nixternal needs a job, a netbook, and some hack time on a Kubuntu Netbook Remix :) [17:27] nixternal: I haven't forgotten about you [17:27] and your netbook [17:27] hehe [17:27] (well actually, I did during UDS unfortunately :( ) [17:28] rickspencer3: http://www.notmart.org/index.php/Software/Plasmanetbook_breaths [17:28] I tried to win a netbook at a recent Novell event, but I never get that lucky :) [17:28] nixternal: Not a remix, the goal is an actual Kubuntu Netbook Edition. [17:28] I want to be like the guy at Ohio Linux Fest that won that monster openSUSE laptop, and then walked right over to the Ubuntu booth to grab a CD :) [17:28] hehe! [17:28] ScottK: right, I just like the word Remix for some strange reason [17:28] lol [17:29] jono, jorge, and I actually felt bad for zonker that day [17:30] But not so bad you actually installed opensuse? [17:30] I am running openSUSE now [17:31] I like to test drive all of the KDE implementations out there [17:31] I don't know if i do that more for Kubuntu or KDE work though [17:32] nixternal: how do you find opensuse overall? [17:32] probably one of the best to be honest [17:32] nixternal: Did you see aseigo's post on distro branding? [17:32] opensuse boot time is whicked fast, I don't get it [17:32] i love kubuntu, but i'm sick of canonical or whoever is shitting intel users with failed graphic drivers [17:32] ScottK: yes I did [17:32] nixternal: Someone (not me, my plate is full) needs to get on that. [17:32] I suggest kwwii to be honest [17:33] DreadKnight: We shipped what Intel gave us. Generally that's a good move, but it's not really (primarily) Canonical's fault. [17:33] i don't get yast, yum and zipper mainly [17:33] Yast isn't bad, zypper is a bit nuts at times, and yum has died except for centos and red hat :p [17:33] and opensuse is more windows/corporate like, bad usability and bloated with settings, even in the installer [17:34] i wish yast was just implemented into kde/gnome control centers... [17:34] I hated the fact I had to do do RPM development at my last job...luckily things like ant rpm make it so much easier [17:34] it is hard for me to call opensuse bloated considering its speed compared to everyone else [17:34] arch has a good kde implementation as well [17:35] i'm not fond of rmps as well, but as far as i know, opensuse uses delta = minimal download time for updates, woot! [17:35] chakra was interesting... but lacks devs... [17:35] though there are a few packages they couldn't figure out how to build on their builders, so someone actually just did a local build and packaged the binaries [17:35] nothing beats the ubuntu/kubuntu live installer... nice and small wizard to get the job done fast and without headackes [17:35] i had no clue that arch was actually started here in chicago and there are a lot of devs here [17:35] though they are all in high school which is pretty neat [17:35] luckily we got nhandler :) [17:36] i think arch is for geeks [17:36] After opensuse 10.1 and being told essentially if I wanted an actual working system I should use SLED, opensus == Never again for me. [17:36] opensus/opensuse [17:36] honestly, fedora is the one to watch out for [17:36] their KDE HIG is very good [17:36] and they are all around a great group of people [17:36] +1 [17:36] linux mint is the most noob friendly atm and it has nice website/community-forum/planet and so on [17:37] nixternal: So great they convinced Linux to run Gnome? [17:37] Linux/Linus [17:37] see, i never paid attention to mint or pclos really [17:37] * ScottK can't type today. [17:37] fedora is not so vanilla, bloaded with stuff and lesser artwork and it's even hard to find what you want to download on their website overall [17:37] ScottK: that's because they made the same decision we did by replacing kde3 so early [17:37] t* [17:37] if Linus was using KUbuntu, the results would have been the same [17:37] +1 [17:37] nixternal: Not the same as we did, they were insane enough to ship 4.0 as default. [17:38] That's my understanding. Is that wrong? [17:38] ScottK: like it was any better with 4.1? [17:38] and like our KDE 3 in hardy is all that good :P [17:38] apachelogger: I found 4.1 pretty usable. [17:38]