| nhaines | Is file storage the only planned feature in the karmic timeframe? | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| dobey | no | 00:03 |
| nhaines | Ooh. Are other details available yet? | 00:04 |
| dobey | some things were discussed at UDS, yes | 00:05 |
| nhaines | Hrm. I'll have to dig around, then. | 00:06 |
| dobey | the big thing being the 'structured storage' stuff (horribly confusing name that is) | 00:06 |
| nhaines | Structured storage? | 00:06 |
| dobey | i think there are some blueprints for it | 00:06 |
| dobey | syncing and storage of contacts for example, with the ability to replicate your contacts to other PCs on your LAN easily | 00:07 |
| greg-g | ok, quick yes/no question: Does U1 sync folders that are symlinks to a folder outside of ~/Ubuntu One (it appears it is not syncing that right now) | 00:08 |
| nhaines | greg-g: no, it doesn't. | 00:08 |
| greg-g | nhaines: thanks. | 00:08 |
| dobey | i think we ignore symlinks because doing The Right Thing (TM) with them is insanely difficult | 00:08 |
| nhaines | greg-g: no prob. Best way is to do it the other way around: symlinks *into* ~Ubuntu One | 00:08 |
| nhaines | I remember hearing a bit about integrated contacts but I thught it was further off. | 00:09 |
| greg-g | nhaines: yeah, right now that is all set up in my ~/Dropbox folder. I was hoping I could just make one newsymlink instead of updating many old ones :) | 00:09 |
| dobey | we're trying to do as much as we can, as fast as we can | 00:09 |
| greg-g | dobey: makes sense | 00:10 |
| nhaines | dobey: frankly, I thought cloud file synchronization was pretty compelling by itself. | 00:10 |
| nhaines | On the other hand, I'm looking forward to other projected features such as screen sharing. | 00:10 |
| dobey | the most compelling feature is the desktop integration, really | 00:11 |
| dobey | although, i really wish i had the Pre SDK right now | 00:12 |
| nhaines | Does desktop integration refer to the client and the Nautilus extensions? | 00:15 |
| dobey | currently, that is what we have, yes | 00:16 |
| dobey | but moreso, it refers to things we'll hopefully be doing in the relatively near future :) | 00:17 |
| dobey | anyway, must go now... later | 00:20 |
| nhaines | dobey: later. :) | 00:24 |
| VK7HSE | Thanks to all the developers for the update on the website for removing shares !!! \o/ | 03:32 |
| jblount | VK7HSE: :) | 03:33 |
| dobey | heh | 03:35 |
| VK7HSE | dobey: I just read the update from twitter !!! | 03:36 |
| dobey | ah | 03:38 |
| dobey | i blame jblount | 03:38 |
| jblount | dobey: I'm guessing you're right. I'm also sneaking people in the back door on twitter. | 03:39 |
| dobey | that's something you'll have to discuss with your wife, not me | 03:39 |
| jblount | dobey: ZOMGROFLMAO!@$! | 03:40 |
| VK7HSE | :-/ (lol) | 03:40 |
| dobey | heh | 03:41 |
| dobey | oi. must get some sleep | 03:59 |
| === jamesh_ is now known as jamesh | ||
| [Puck] | hi everyone | 08:30 |
| sladen | dobey: say "Your openID" and "View your subscriptions" | 10:27 |
| sladen | greg-g: swap the directory and the symlink around | 10:28 |
| sladen | dobey: __lucio__: tcole: Comments about scope (rather than naming) are welcomed at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne#Technical%20details (SteveA has already approached me with a few changes/suggestions) | 15:35 |
| __lucio__ | sladen: hi, good morning. looking now. | 15:35 |
| __lucio__ | sladen: re updown. updown server is not the web app, is the service that just handles the uploads and downloads. just that. gets and puts. | 15:36 |
| __lucio__ | (ive seen a web ui bug tagged updown) | 15:36 |
| sladen | __lucio__: yeah, stevea mentiond that too. | 15:38 |
| sladen | __lucio__: does storagefsd also talk to updown ? | 15:39 |
| __lucio__ | sladen: no, they just share some code | 15:40 |
| sladen | oh, hold on. Is the uploading and downloading out of band from the u1storage protocol channel | 15:40 |
| __lucio__ | sladen: only for web | 15:40 |
| sladen | __lucio__: so when you upload using the web, the page is served by a machine in the canonical datacentre, but the file itself comes directly from fs-1.ubuntuone.com ? | 15:41 |
| __lucio__ | sladen: no. syncdaemon talks with the api server. for everything. the web browser talks to the web ui server and the updown server | 15:42 |
| __lucio__ | just to make sure i dont misname things, i kept the names i know | 15:43 |
| sladen | and the instance of updown runs on the same macine as the instance of the ubuntuone-file-storage-api-server | 15:46 |
| sladen | and the instance of unamed-serivce-at-www.ubuntuone.com/files is on a separate machine (in the Canonical datacentre IP address space) | 15:47 |
| __lucio__ | sladen: i dont think they run on the same machine, no. | 15:48 |
| sladen | okay, but the unamed-serivce-at-www.ubuntuone.com/files is on a separate machine to the instance of updown | 15:50 |
| __lucio__ | sladen: again, im not sure, but i think it is. | 15:50 |
| sladen | is there a better name for "the unamed-serivce-at-www.ubuntuone.com/files" | 15:50 |
| Chipaca | no, updown runs on separate machines | 15:51 |
| Chipaca | from api, I mean | 15:51 |
| dobey | sladen: better name than? | 15:53 |
| sladen | Chipaca: nod. Is there a name/term for the front end part of www.ubuntuone.com specifically related to the "Ubuntu One Storage" | 15:53 |
| dobey | sladen: it is the web ui for file storage service | 15:53 |
| sladen | web ui. k. | 15:54 |
| Chipaca | sladen: webui :) | 15:54 |
| facundobatista | Hi all | 16:01 |
| __lucio__ | facundobatista: hey! welcome back! youre late :P | 16:02 |
| facundobatista | __lucio__, indeed | 16:02 |
| __lucio__ | facundobatista: when did you arrive? how was it? | 16:02 |
| facundobatista | __lucio__, a few hours ago... the plane landed with fog, too much fog | 16:03 |
| statik | hello world | 16:20 |
| facundobatista | Hi statik | 16:25 |
| dobey | hola | 16:26 |
| === chs is now known as chris17 | ||
| === kklimonda_ is now known as kklimonda | ||
| sladen | tcole: I clashed with you splitting updown and webui. Which of those does webstorage correspond to? | 17:37 |
| tcole | ah | 17:40 |
| tcole | webui | 17:40 |
| tcole | updown is barely a user-visible thing | 17:40 |
| sladen | tcole: what's the name of the server that 'updown' runs on? | 17:50 |
| sladen | eg. something-1.ubuntuone.com | 17:50 |
| sladen | tcole: yeah, storagfs, u1storage, u1sync-agent .... they're all non-user visible. But that doesn't mean they're not equal parts of the jigsaw | 17:52 |
| tcole | that's actually a good question | 17:53 |
| * tcole checks | 17:53 | |
| tcole | updown.ubuntuone.com | 17:53 |
| sladen | tcole: can yu check that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne?action=diff&rev2=17&rev1=15 is correct | 17:59 |
| statik | hi sladen, i just noticed on your website a link about british sign language, thats intriguing! i am fluent in american sign language but have never learned BSL | 17:59 |
| tcole | sladen: yes, that's just about right | 18:01 |
| sladen | statik: oh it's difference, we need both hands to spell the alphabet :) | 18:01 |
| tcole | sladen: updown is quite simple, it just checks access permissions in the database and basically does passthru to S3 as you describe | 18:01 |
| sladen | have we got a better way to phrase "It is possible to share a view (called a "Share") to a particular subtree to one or more individual users on a read-only or a read-write basis." so that it includes the word "directory" | 18:02 |
| tcole | sladen: hmm, not sure. it is important that shares are understood to apply to an entire subtree rooted at the shared directory, not simply the shared directory itself | 18:03 |
| sladen | it introducs too many concepts ("view" "share" "subtree") in the same sentence without giving them familiar equivalents | 18:03 |
| sladen | maybe I'll try to introduce that at the top. When you mirror stuff, you can choose to just mirror a sub-tree | 18:04 |
| sladen | and read-only is basically one-way mirroring | 18:04 |
| tcole | that sounds good | 18:06 |
| tcole | while it isn't terribly important to most users, that fits well with the way u1sync works, too | 18:06 |
| sladen | that's simple commandline/vcs/ftp-like tool? | 18:08 |
| tcole | yes | 18:08 |
| __lucio__ | mmh. not so much as ftp but maybe rsync. | 18:08 |
| tcole | it lives somewhere between bzr and rsync I think | 18:09 |
| __lucio__ | yes | 18:09 |
| dobey | under a bridge. and it demands payment for passage when you approach it | 18:10 |
| tcole | no, that's u1troll | 18:11 |
| tcole | for our previously unannounced automated trolling service | 18:11 |
| tcole | it's a bit like Amazon's Mechanical Turk, only focused on serving the Internet trolling community | 18:12 |
| tcole | *crickets* | 18:13 |
| tcole | (well, the joke seemed funny at the time...) | 18:13 |
| __lucio__ | we are going to leave so many people with nothing to do that its going to be amazing. a bit dangerous tough. | 18:13 |
| tcole | well, it's more about giving them an opportunity to monetize their trolling skills | 18:14 |
| sladen | when I add a new version of a file, that creates a new object, and a reference is also inserted into a directory object, | 18:16 |
| tcole | hm, not precisely | 18:16 |
| sladen | now, do each of the directory objects further up the chain, right the way to the top of the Share get updated too | 18:16 |
| tcole | no | 18:16 |
| tcole | new versions of a file are (at least in theory) the same object | 18:17 |
| sladen | pointing to a different blob? | 18:17 |
| tcole | yes | 18:17 |
| sladen | okay. So how do you find out what to re-mirror | 18:17 |
| tcole | though if the rename+create done by text editors and the like gets propagated to the server, obviously that ends up being a new object | 18:17 |
| tcole | I forget offhand whether we filter such rename + creates out at the moment or not | 18:17 |
| tcole | sladen: from the POV of clients talking the storage protocol, they get push notifications when particular nodes change | 18:18 |
| sladen | is any history kept, or is it the blob reference just overwritten straight | 18:18 |
| tcole | lucio: does syncdaemon transfer file identity on rename+replace yet? | 18:18 |
| tcole | right now it's overwritten, though that will change | 18:19 |
| tcole | well, it'll still be overwritten | 18:19 |
| tcole | but there will be a log alongside | 18:19 |
| tcole | maintaining history | 18:19 |
| sladen | tcole: so if I connect and in between, 20 objects were updates, the client gets 20 notifcations delivered at once? | 18:19 |
| tcole | sladen: when you connect, the client is responsible for spidering the tree and identifying changes on its own | 18:19 |
| tcole | sladen: since the server doesn't (can't, really..) keep track of "what you missed since you last connected" | 18:20 |
| tcole | a fully content-aware tree would make this easier (since you could trivially prune subtrees which haven't changed to avoid having to rescan them), but that isn't the current design | 18:20 |
| tcole | the push notifications are just for changes since the client connected | 18:21 |
| sladen | Ah, so the unsolicated push notifications are merely a convenience feature. They aren't actually essential to the operation | 18:21 |
| sladen | convience/optimisation | 18:21 |
| tcole | more or less | 18:22 |
| tcole | clients could poll but that would be pretty slow | 18:22 |
| tcole | u1sync doesn't bother with the push notifications since it's more of a one-shot deal | 18:22 |
| tcole | rather than something which stays connected persistently | 18:23 |
| tcole | __lucio__: ping | 18:23 |
| __lucio__ | tcole: here | 18:24 |
| tcole | __lucio__: did we ever do that thing in syncdaemon with recognizing text editor moves/renames when updating files? | 18:25 |
| tcole | it doesn't matter terribly now, but we're going to care about it when we implement history | 18:25 |
| __lucio__ | tcole: nope. i want to do that of not uploading open files. but never did | 18:25 |
| tcole | not uploading open files is something distinct | 18:26 |
| __lucio__ | tcole: i think will have to do something about it when we do history | 18:26 |
| tcole | yes | 18:26 |
| sladen | tcole: what about 'u1r' it sort of rhymes with 'bee-zed-arr' | 18:57 |
| tcole | for what? | 18:57 |
| sladen | tcole: the commandline one-shot tool that you are likely to need to type repetively | 18:58 |
| tcole | u1sync seems fine to me | 18:58 |
| sladen | the name 'u1ftp' I've given it at the moment is not quite right | 18:58 |
| tcole | definitely not | 18:59 |
| tcole | well, from my point of view | 18:59 |
| sladen | and u1sync is confusing as it is separate from/incompatible with the the rest of the u1sync infrastructure | 18:59 |
| tcole | u1sync is the one component with a specific, short name | 18:59 |
| sladen | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne#General%20concepts | 19:00 |
| tcole | I'm not renaming the program :P | 19:01 |
| sladen | yeah... | 19:02 |
| sladen | I think for clarity, I'll rename it in the doc though | 19:02 |
| tcole | I'm not sure that will bring clarity | 19:03 |
| tcole | people will be looking for a u1ftp command or whatever | 19:03 |
| sladen | how does having the same name as something unrelated help? | 19:03 |
| tcole | it didn't until you gave something else a colliding name | 19:03 |
| tcole | I appreciate what you're doing | 19:04 |
| tcole | but I'm concerned by the lack of correspondence between what things are actually called and what you're calling them in the FQ | 19:04 |
| tcole | er, FAQ | 19:04 |
| sladen | Duely noted | 19:06 |
| dobey | yeah, i don't understand why you want to rename things in the FAQ | 19:06 |
| dobey | it's not really a fitting thing for documentation to do | 19:06 |
| tcole | I think it would be best, if you're giving things alternate names | 19:07 |
| tcole | to make it clear that the names are alternate names by using spaces and titlecase | 19:07 |
| tcole | rather than making them look like program names | 19:07 |
| tcole | and then mentioning the actual program names in the relevant sections | 19:07 |
| tcole | rather than leaving it for a table at the end | 19:07 |
| sladen | To take "ubuntuoneapiserver" as an example. "Ubuntu one" is a brand name that has nothing to do with file-sharing. The "API" is actually in an misnamed other python library, and "Server" is a generic name, (eg. the machine its running on). Nothing in there stated *anything* to do with filehandling or storage. It's confusing to somebody who is not familar with the project | 19:09 |
| tcole | I have less objection to renaming that | 19:09 |
| tcole | but when you call the user-visible program u1sync u1r or u1ftp or something else in the documentation, and it's really actually called u1sync, and u1sync is the command a user runs | 19:10 |
| tcole | there's a big disconnect there between the documentation and the actual user view | 19:10 |
| tcole | and if you're calling it that because you've already called something else u1sync ... maybe you shouldn't be doing that | 19:11 |
| tcole | we do need to give users names to call things | 19:11 |
| tcole | but what we don't want to do is create an extra layer of indirection | 19:12 |
| tcole | between the documentation and the user-visible system | 19:12 |
| sladen | okay, got an alternative suggestion for 'u1sync' (IIRC, I found the term "u1sync" used in components of the agent and its tool/applet. But I could be wrong | 19:12 |
| tcole | any of the code under canonical.ubuntuone.storage.u1sync is specific to the u1sync CLI tool | 19:13 |
| sladen | u1syncdaemon-agent | 19:13 |
| sladen | u1syncdaemon-tool | 19:13 |
| sladen | gnome-u1syncdaemon-applet then? | 19:13 |
| dobey | you are confusing even me | 19:13 |
| dobey | and i wrote this stuff :) | 19:13 |
| sladen | dobey: those follow the standard naming of similar processs (eg. run 'ps') | 19:14 |
| tcole | we can discuss renaming the processes themselves | 19:14 |
| tcole | but the documentation should reflect what they are actually called | 19:15 |
| tcole | things are a bit different for the server components, where the user doesn't see what they're actually called (and they don't even necessarily have real names themselves) | 19:15 |
| sladen | indeed. And I flook forward to reading documentation that isn't th result of reverse-engineering | 19:15 |
| sladen | the u1ftp/u1sycn pick was a bad one. I agree | 19:16 |
| dobey | sladen: no they don't | 19:16 |
| dobey | the processes are ubuntuone-syncdaemon and ubuntuone-client-applet | 19:16 |
| sladen | dobey: eh? Are you running KDE? | 19:16 |
| dobey | uh, no | 19:17 |
| sladen | "ubuntuone-client-applet" <--- another example of something that doesn't mention either filesharing/syncronisation in its name | 19:17 |
| tcole | in the case of ubuntuone-client-applet, it's possible that it may not be specific to filesharing | 19:17 |
| tcole | in the future | 19:17 |
| tcole | at least in principle | 19:17 |
| tcole | I think in practice it's probably going to eventually go away as a distinct entity | 19:17 |
| dobey | sladen: yes, because it's not specific to file sharing/storage | 19:18 |
| dobey | in fact, most of the work it does, is authentication | 19:18 |
| sladen | I can imagine that with a rewite, non of this stuff would be specific to fielsharing. | 19:18 |
| dobey | well the sync daemon is always going to be specific to filesharingstorage | 19:18 |
| dobey | the applet itself is mostly going away | 19:19 |
| tcole | anyway, to sum up | 19:20 |
| tcole | if the process is running on the user's machine and has a user-visible process name, we ought to use that process name in documentation referring to the process | 19:20 |
| tcole | whether or not the name is well-chosen | 19:20 |
| tcole | if it's a bad or confusing name, then we should discuss renaming the actual process | 19:21 |
| sladen | excllent | 19:21 |
| dobey | yes | 19:22 |
| tcole | (but in the meantime I think it's important that the documentation reflect what things are currently called) | 19:28 |
| sladen | it's a wiki. I won't revert it. I might even do it self. Although it's not as higher a priority as documenting other bits | 19:29 |
| sladen | s/self/myself/ | 19:29 |
| tcole | I won't twist your arm :) | 19:34 |
| tcole | thank you again for undertaking this | 19:38 |
| tcole | btw | 19:38 |
| === yofel_ is now known as yofel | ||
| sladen | tcole: I've done u1ftp->u1sync | 20:40 |
| sladen | tcole: I think I'll leave the others for the mo | 20:41 |
| sladen | tcole: there is nothing "wrong" with the 'u1sync' name, whereas with the others (that I introducd the clash with), there "is" | 20:42 |
| sladen | (where "wrong" is of course, entirely my own humble opinion) | 20:43 |
| tcole | well, I would agree that they are suboptimial in some respects | 20:45 |
| sladen | suboptimial is a bettter word, yes | 20:46 |
| BUGabundo | boas noites | 21:17 |
| facundobatista | Hola BUGabundo | 22:31 |
| BUGabundo | ola facundobatista | 22:31 |
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