[01:25] <bodhizazen> wb doctormo and nhandler :)
[01:25] <doctormo> hello bodhizazen
[01:26] <doctormo> interesting form post I notted the other day
[01:26] <bodhizazen> nhandler: they fixed my php bug :)
[01:26] <bodhizazen> The source now builds
[01:26] <bodhizazen> which one doctormo ?
[01:31] <nhandler> Great bodhizazen
[01:33] <bodhizazen> but so far the server team seems oblivious to my request on how to package php-fpm
[01:33] <bodhizazen> lol
[01:45] <doctormo> bodhizazen: the one about the Mono rage.
[01:53] <bodhizazen> on the forums doctormo ?
[01:59] <bodhizazen> linky please doctormo
[02:00] <doctormo> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1169322&page=2
[02:15] <bodhizazen> Ah, thanks doctormo :)
[02:16] <bodhizazen>  / me is tired of the open-source nazis telling me what is open and what I can run on my box :)
[02:18] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, nhandler and others - take a look at the Open Office course... let me know what you think
[02:18] <cprofitt> open-source nazis - for example Stallmanettes?
[02:18] <bodhizazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1169322&page=2
[02:19] <bodhizazen> Stallman wanna bes :)
[02:19] <nhandler> cprofitt: Do you have a link?
[02:21] <cprofitt> learn.ubft.com
[02:21] <cprofitt> or .org
[02:21] <cprofitt> or .net
[02:21] <cprofitt> yeah.. learn.ufbt.net
[02:21] <bodhizazen> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=5
[02:21] <bodhizazen> what I have looked at look nice
[02:21] <bodhizazen> it is long cprofitt
[02:23]  * nhandler is now making his 3rd, 4th, or 5th account on learn.ufbt.net
[02:23] <cprofitt> read it all
[02:23] <cprofitt> nhandler, just use openID
[02:23] <cprofitt> that guy is amazing
[02:23] <cprofitt> or did you mean the course is long bodhizazen
[02:24] <nhandler> cprofitt: I am, but that still requires you to fill out the registration form
[02:25] <nhandler> bodhizazen: The emails it sends out are messed up
[02:25] <nhandler> They say "Dear  ,"
[02:26] <doctormo> bodhizazen: That seems rather insulting to Stallman, you know I'm freindly with the FSF as their HQ is in Boston.
[02:26] <doctormo> I won't have a bad word said about them in that regard, you can't mistake Stallmans position on anything and he'll change positions given new data.
[02:27] <doctormo> cprofitt: I'm waiting for the announcement about the 'how to do courses' and 'how to teach' sections so we can have a big media blow out
[02:27] <power885> hello can anybody help me.....
[02:28] <doctormo> power885: don't ask to ask, people are friendly and naturally helpful.
[02:28] <doctormo> so that would be, yes
[02:28] <power885> sory am just a newbie o ubuntu and programming
[02:29] <nhandler> When viewing the OO.o lesson, the header has a scrollbar
[02:29] <doctormo> power885: Welcome
[02:29] <doctormo> I'd really like to get the theme sorted out, damn it
[02:30] <power885> i am very much interested in programming so plz guide me wat knowlege i should get for doing developmnt in ubuntu system
[02:32] <bodhizazen> doctormo: I really do not have a problem with Stallman
[02:32] <bodhizazen> at least not that I know of
[02:32] <bodhizazen> I do have a problem with anyone telling me what I can use on my computer
[02:32] <bodhizazen> no matter if it comes from microsoft or stallman
[02:32] <power885> doctormo: hello u der??
[02:33] <doctormo> power885: tes
[02:33] <doctormo> yes
[02:33] <doctormo> bodhizazen: the conflict is not about inderviduals, it's one of those blasted social problems, I'll pm you a link
[02:33] <power885> doctormo:i am very much interested in programming so plz guide me wat knowlege i should get for doing developmnt in ubuntu system
[02:34] <doctormo> power885: yes, hang on
[02:34] <bodhizazen> power885: what kind of programming ?
[02:34] <doctormo> power885: OK the first thing is, do you know how to do any programming at all?
[02:34] <bodhizazen> your question is quite broad :)
[02:34] <cprofitt> doctormo, cool... have you taken a look at the two courses I uploaded?
[02:35] <doctormo> cprofitt: Yes, so far it looks good, there are some aspects of the designt hat need attention, how much control do we have over presentation of courses?
[02:35] <bodhizazen> doctormo: I am not sure I want to delve into the politics of open source
[02:35] <cprofitt> well... those courses are CC
[02:35] <power885> doctormo:ya i know little basics of C and c++
[02:35] <cprofitt> so I think we can adapt them
[02:36] <cprofitt> I have not had a chance to adapt them yet...
[02:36] <bodhizazen> I prefer opensource for a varitey of reasons, but the simple fact is, the open source community does not as of yet provide the full functionality I need
[02:36] <doctormo> bodhizazen: politics just means city, it's the thought and argument of community and society, rejection of politics is a rejection of community :-(
[02:36] <cprofitt> and I want to design my own 'course' on UFW as an example doctormo
[02:36] <doctormo> cprofitt: sounds good
[02:36] <bodhizazen> For example, one of many, I want this application : http://www.smartmusic.com/
[02:37] <doctormo> power885: The best place to start is getting to grips with python, if you can do some useful things in a script and fromt he python shell then you can learn packaging and deployment for your python programs.
[02:37] <bodhizazen> it is a music program to teach violin, and others, to children
[02:37] <bodhizazen> it will not run on Linux
[02:37] <pwnguin> once audio works on linux
[02:37] <pwnguin> stuff like that might be doable
[02:37] <bodhizazen> so I do not really want the open source community blabbing to me about booting Vista to run it
[02:38] <bodhizazen> pwnguin: It runs in wine
[02:38] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, I agree
[02:38] <bodhizazen> but functionality is limited
[02:38] <cprofitt> I just wish OS X was open source
[02:38] <pwnguin> osx is half open
[02:38] <cprofitt> then...
[02:38] <bodhizazen> the wine drives do not recognize the microphone for example
[02:38] <cprofitt> pwnguin, not the important parts
[02:38] <doctormo> bodhizazen: Yes, I understand, it's a tightrope walk I won't deny. But I wouldn't reject FOSS politics because they don't disapear just because of your need. You have to be able to hold more than one idea and goal at the same time.
[02:38] <pwnguin> but im guessing you're not interested in the darwin part
[02:39] <doctormo> Especially as a community leader
[02:39] <bodhizazen> I do not personally have any problem with that doctormo
[02:39] <cprofitt> pwnguin, when talking about apps like bodhizazen is... the darwin part does not help
[02:39] <pwnguin> music tutors?
[02:40] <pwnguin> which part of OSX has that?
[02:40] <bodhizazen> I think people need to stop thinking of open source as free as in free beer
[02:40] <doctormo> bodhizazen: Perhaps if you can form a solid community of users with a strong desire to FOSSate that functionality you can some how fund development of an alternative between you.
[02:40] <power885> doctormo:can u plz tell me name of good book so dat i can master it as fast as possible
[02:40] <bodhizazen> I have no respect for the free as in free beer arguremnt
[02:40] <bodhizazen> we need free as in freedom
[02:40] <doctormo> At the moment, as Stallman says, your divided and conqured.
[02:41] <bodhizazen> and if that means I pay developers to code I am OK with that
[02:41] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, I agree -- Free = freedom not 'no cost'
[02:41] <bodhizazen> And if people take the code and re-comile I am OK with that too
[02:41] <doctormo> power885: http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Python-Mark-Lutz/dp/0596009259
[02:42] <pwnguin> what about dive into python?
[02:42] <bodhizazen> I consider myself an advocate for open source
[02:42] <doctormo> bodhizazen: You must have been reading my recent blog posts about funding then?
[02:42] <pwnguin> http://www.diveintopython.org/
[02:42] <bodhizazen> but not to the point where I can not run a closed source program, that is just silly
[02:42] <doctormo> bodhizazen: I don't know why you do, I consider myself an advocate of Free and Open Source Software FOSS, not just the devel method.
[02:42] <bodhizazen> and certainly not to the point where I can not user a closed source program to accomplish day to day tasks
[02:43] <pwnguin> open source is a strategy for improving the quality of software than would otherwise be produced
[02:43] <bodhizazen> I think the disagreement comes when the open source community starts dictating what I can run
[02:44] <bodhizazen> what business is it what application I use ?
[02:44] <doctormo> bodhizazen: Indervidual choices and social consiquences, it's one of those tricky group problems.
[02:44] <pwnguin> people eschew closed software are worshiping a false idol; if open source produces crappy software, there's no point
[02:44] <bodhizazen> It is not a choice unless there is more then one option
[02:45] <doctormo> bodhizazen: I use the nvidia closed driver, but I put money into the novou driver to replace it because while my use is required right now, I'm prepared to try and dig everyone else out of the mess too.
[02:45] <pwnguin> anyways, none of this has much to do with the state of ubuntu-learning
[02:45] <bodhizazen> it is not as if the open source community has an application like SmartMusic
[02:45] <bodhizazen> to you can not call it a choice
[02:45] <doctormo> cprofitt: feedback for you: [21:44] <guinea-pig> doctormo: okay, but first, to view the link i have to 1) create an account and then 2) now the link merely asks if i want to enrol (sic) in the course, but doesn't tell me anything about it.
[02:46] <bodhizazen> It is only a choice when the open source community has an option - call it OpenMusic
[02:46] <bodhizazen> then one can choose OpenMusic vs SmartMusic
[02:46] <pwnguin> doctormo: part of the reason for that is a historically shitty sound system and fake sound cards
[02:46] <doctormo> bodhizazen: The first thing that is required is a solid design of the features required out of the program. It's dificult for you to drum up interest in a replacement project with solid specifics.
[02:47] <bodhizazen> Why is it my responsibility to drum up interest ?
[02:47] <bodhizazen> It is not
[02:47] <bodhizazen> I am happy with the product I have
[02:47] <doctormo> bodhizazen: It's your responsbility to a) serve your own needs and b) prevent harm to others.
[02:47] <pwnguin> if you build it, they will come
[02:47] <bodhizazen> It is your interest to change my behavior
[02:47] <bodhizazen> and that is different
[02:48] <pwnguin> doctormo: since the subject isn't changing, i have a proposal
[02:48] <Vantrax> doctormo, the announcement is now waiting on a proper theme, hopefully ill have something temp done this week
[02:48] <pwnguin> doctormo: Direct Funding of Google SoC-like projects
[02:48] <doctormo> Vantrax: are you working on a theme or am I?
[02:48] <Vantrax> both:P
[02:48] <doctormo> pwnguin: direct funding of any projects would be much better
[02:48] <Vantrax> im doing a hack job >.<
[02:48] <doctormo> Vantrax: I don't even have a devel to work from, I tried hacking the css and utterly failed
[02:48] <doctormo> scrapped it
[02:49] <pwnguin> doctormo: the challenge appears to be paperwork
[02:49] <bodhizazen> IMO it is the open source community who has the responsibility
[02:49] <pwnguin> surely, there are 5 people out there willing to pay 1000 each to see inkscape's diagram tool improved
[02:50] <doctormo> pwnguin: indeed, organisation, reputationed and authoritative esrco and a cultural shift away from leaching and towards seeding.
[02:50] <bodhizazen> If they want to challenge the closed source community they need to look at what and how they provide a product and match it
[02:50] <pwnguin> doctormo: i dont see a cultural shift so much as a vacuum
[02:50] <doctormo> bodhizazen: You ARE a PART of the open source community. The resposibility is yours.
[02:50] <Vantrax> dont worry doctormo im sure I can hack up the CSS, ive done it before for Joomla and its not too different
[02:51] <bodhizazen> not so doctormo
[02:51] <doctormo> Who is this 'they' you keep on mentioning.
[02:51] <Vantrax> I could  use some pretty graphics later tho
[02:51] <bodhizazen> They is the open source community
[02:51] <doctormo> Vantrax: Yes but I want to apply my style and design skill to the problem :-( can you hack up a css and some stand alone html pages that can be used to drop in?
[02:52] <doctormo> Vantrax: so instead of working on a theme, work on a devel enviroment for me
[02:52] <Vantrax> lol
[02:52] <Vantrax> no I cant do that, but I know enough about css that i can visualise how it looks and edit it blind:P
[02:52] <doctormo> bodhizazen: What makes you think the open source community is such a coherent entity that 1) you are not a member of it and 2) it bares any resposibility at all?
[02:52] <bodhizazen> Just because I am a part of the open source community does not mean I have the kind of responsibilities you are pushing on me :)
[02:53] <bodhizazen> It is you who are pushing responsibility, not I
[02:53] <doctormo> Vantrax: All it would take it saving off each page and merging the resulting directories and css files.
[02:53] <Vantrax> the problem with doing that for this situation is the theme assumes that there are all sorts of calls not there unless your running moodle
[02:53] <Vantrax> so the layout is actually defined partly by moodle, not by the theme
[02:53] <doctormo> bodhizazen: I'm not actually pushing, I'm showing you were the burden lies already, I'm not moving a thing, I'm trying to reveal to you the status.
[02:53] <bodhizazen> I am perfectly happy to use a closed source application where no open source option exists
[02:54] <pwnguin> doctormo: the nouveau pledge drive demonstrated, i think, a community's willingness to pay. it may have also demonstrated the inability to organize
[02:54] <bodhizazen> and it is the open source community, ie you and stallman, who feel I am doing something immoral
[02:54] <doctormo> pwnguin: I leanred a lot from organising that ;-)
[02:54] <pwnguin> transaction costs are brutal
[02:55] <doctormo> pwnguin: yep
[02:55] <doctormo> bodhizazen: I and Stallman are not in the open source community
[02:55] <emacs> doctormo :thanks alot and after studying python den what should i do
[02:56] <bodhizazen> well, it is you now telling me I can not use a closed source application and that I have some kind of responsibilty to some kind of community
[02:56] <bodhizazen> define it how you wish
[02:56] <pwnguin> emacs: study zope and apache
[02:56] <bodhizazen> once you define the terms we can use them consistantly, according to your definition
[02:57] <bodhizazen> but please do not shift terms or argue semantics with me ;)
[02:57] <bodhizazen> my definition is simple
[02:57] <bodhizazen> I prefer open source apps, I think we know what that means
[02:57] <pwnguin> hmm. i guess dive into python isn't a good beginner book
zope??am hearing for first time wats that
[02:58] <doctormo> bodhizazen: You've already been corrected on which communities you put Stallman in and I already explained what I'm in. Stallman is Free Software and I'm FOSS. not open source.
[02:58] <bodhizazen> When no open source app is available I use close source
[02:58] <doctormo> It's not symantics
[02:58] <pwnguin> emacs: it's a set of python tools to build websites
[02:58] <bodhizazen> whatever you say doctormo
[02:58] <emacs> ok
[02:59] <bodhizazen> I still use closed source apps and there is still nothing wrong with that
[02:59] <doctormo> I can't force people to consider their community or be kind and thoughtful about what they do in that context, obviously we all have our needs. But please, I think you've been pushed into some sort of corner and are fighting an argument I'm not making.
[02:59] <bodhizazen> what community are we talking about doctormo ?
[02:59] <pwnguin> In an ideal world, a highly competitive market for software would exist
[03:00] <bodhizazen> mine ?
[03:00] <bodhizazen> yours ?
[03:00] <bodhizazen> open source
[03:00] <bodhizazen> FOSS >
[03:00] <pwnguin> instead, we have exactly 1 smartmusic
[03:00] <doctormo> bodhizazen: Are you not a leader in Ubuntu in several respects as well as being on this board?
[03:00] <bodhizazen> Are we talking about the moodle project ?
[03:00] <doctormo> The moodle project? no, this is Ubuntu Learning.
actually i also want to study kernel development...but i dont no wer i hav to start
[03:01] <emacs> can u plz guide me
[03:01] <pwnguin> emacs: in that case
[03:01] <pwnguin> heh
[03:01]  * pwnguin used to TA for Operating systems
[03:01] <doctormo> emacs: you want to be into kernel development?
[03:01] <pwnguin> emacs: tell me about your academic background
[03:01] <emacs> ya
[03:01] <bodhizazen> I am talking about using a closed source application when no open source application is avilable, whatever community that make me in your definition I do not know
[03:02] <emacs> actually am btech in cs
[03:02] <pwnguin> btech?
[03:02] <emacs> BE
[03:02] <bodhizazen> and you , or FOSS, or stallman, or microsoft, or whoever is telling me I am somehow wrong ;)
[03:03] <bodhizazen> for any variety of self interetst
[03:03] <pwnguin> this sounds like either a foreign degree, or a bullshit domestic degree ;)
[03:03] <bodhizazen> but I do not buy into any of that
[03:03] <pwnguin> anyways
 Engineering grad in cs
[03:04] <pwnguin> emacs: so have you studied computer architecture?
[03:04] <bodhizazen> I buy into , It is my computer, and so long as I am not violating any laws , I can run what I please for whatever reason I wish
[03:04] <bodhizazen> and that decision harms no one :)
[03:04] <bodhizazen> whatever groups you want to define from that , be my guest
[03:05] <pwnguin> emacs: fundamentally, a kernel is the glue between normal programs and computer hardware. to do this, you need to know about the concrete fundamentals of computers.
[03:05] <emacs> to be frank i was just lazy...i havent go to dat depth..but after using linux system am very much interseted
[03:06] <pwnguin> emacs: if you've completed coursework in CS, and have an understanding of C, then I reccommend the minix book
[03:07] <pwnguin> it has chapters on computer architecture, kernel design
[03:07] <emacs> basics in C
[03:07] <emacs> ok
[03:07] <pwnguin> and it has actual homework
[03:07] <emacs> ok can u plz give me d name of that book
[03:07] <pwnguin> i'll give you a referral link
[03:07] <emacs> ok
[03:09] <doctormo> bodhizazen: Are we not because of our community? do we not thrive when our brothers and sisters thrive? Why have you run into your computer, slamming the door and brandished your spear to the rest of the community that is _trying_ to help you? why do you not want to be a part of the community that you are a part of? do you not like being human?
[03:09] <pwnguin> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0131429388?ie=UTF8&tag=jlduggesblog-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0131429388
[03:09] <pwnguin> that's the minix 3 book
[03:10] <bodhizazen> what community are we talking about now doctormo ?
[03:10] <pwnguin> i have the minix 2 book, but minix 3 is modernized as i understand it
[03:10] <bodhizazen> what is "our community"
[03:10] <pwnguin> minix is the book that torvalds read before writing linux
[03:10] <doctormo> bodhizazen: You would exlude people from your community?
[03:10] <bodhizazen> and why is "our community" so intolerant ?
[03:11] <bodhizazen> I am not sure I wish to be associated with such an intolerant community
[03:11] <doctormo> bodhizazen: They don't like social harm, I can't say I blame them.
[03:11] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: that intolerance actually does alot of harm
[03:11] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, doctormo um... are we going in circles?
[03:11] <bodhizazen> a community which monitors what I run on my computer ?
[03:11] <bodhizazen> no thank you
[03:11] <pwnguin> of course it's going in circles. you don't resolve things like "free software" vs "good software" on IRC
[03:12] <cprofitt> People should be free to choose what software they want or need
[03:12] <doctormo> cprofitt: possibly, but this is interesting.
[03:12] <Vantrax> As someone who uses alot of linux, i use both FOSS, and closed applications. A fair bit of the reason is just that FOSS doesnt cut it in alot of areas and a free closed source solution is better
[03:12] <Vantrax> who is to say I shouldnt use the better solution?
ok after going through dis book ....wat should i do...from wer i hav to start ma journey
[03:12] <bodhizazen> doctormo: you have not specified what community you are referring to
[03:12] <doctormo> There are two right answers but it requires that your able to think in two different modes.
[03:12] <pwnguin> emacs: just how long do you think it's going to take?
[03:13] <cprofitt> perhaps we should talk about Ubuntu One
[03:13]  * cprofitt runs and hides
[03:13] <Vantrax> ... bad cprofitt
[03:13] <doctormo> cprofitt: I used to work on that ;-) lets not
[03:13] <pwnguin> emacs: this book is grad level material; and without a guide, it'll take a while. once you go through the book, go through it again1
[03:13] <pwnguin> !
[03:14] <pwnguin> it has plenty of references to reading materials
[03:14] <doctormo> bodhizazen: The community I refer to is the Ubuntu community, part of that community is FOSS and all the politics and social perspectivies that comes with it.
[03:14] <cprofitt> Lets just say I like all of you guys...
[03:14] <cprofitt> and I respect all of your opinions
[03:14] <cprofitt> but I reserve the right to have my own opinions
[03:14] <emacs>  as fast as possible.....am just thrilled to start with kernal programming.
[03:14] <cprofitt> and the only company I hate with a venom is Apple
[03:15] <pwnguin> emacs: you should plan on spending at least two or three months on it
[03:15] <Vantrax> doctormo: Ubuntu is not FOSS, not in the strictest definition
[03:15] <pwnguin> emacs: i hope you werent trying to fake it until you make it or something
[03:15] <cprofitt> though Apple did lower the 'entry' point $$$ for their MacBook Pro
[03:16] <doctormo> That's the phraise I was after: Social Perspective, the right answer is considering both your self perspective and your social perspective. when they are in conflict as in the closed source question then sometimes the answer is to try and solve one while accepting the other.
[03:16] <emacs> pwnguin :sorry i cant get u
[03:17] <bodhizazen> so is there a consensus in this commuinty that I am wrong to use a closed source application, or is that an opinion of FOSS, or a smaller group of individuals, or just doctormo ?
[03:17] <doctormo> Vantrax: I said part, besides Ubuntu holds the correct perspectives, they don't encourage none FOSS development do they? I'd argue that that made FOSS a core principle of the culture.
[03:17] <Vantrax> Ubuntu exists to make Linux successfull in the home, workstation, and server markets. Its goal is not to be FOSS, but it is to be Free.
[03:17] <pwnguin> emacs: I think you have deadline you're not mentioning to us. Did you promise somebody you'd do something without knowing how to do it at the time?
[03:17] <doctormo> bodhizazen: No, your right to use the closed source app, your wrong to not think about the posibilities and weigh up the costs of a viable replacement to serve yourself and others in the community.
[03:18] <doctormo> Instead of considering the community as some other external thing that has all the responsiblity
[03:18] <bodhizazen> why am I wrong and who says so ?
[03:18] <bodhizazen> do you speak for yourself ?
[03:18] <Vantrax> doctormo: just there you made a huge assumption
[03:18] <bodhizazen> FOSS ?
[03:18] <doctormo> Vantrax: I know
[03:18] <bodhizazen> the ubuntu community ?
[03:18] <bodhizazen> I think you speak now for yourself
[03:18] <doctormo> This is like trying to educate someone in the art of zen, unless you see the new horizon it won't make sense.
[03:19] <Vantrax> doctormo: you just assumed that it is the responcibility of every person using Ubuntu to be part of the community, and to contribute and give back to it
[03:19] <cprofitt> doctormo, speaking of Zen with bodhizazen may be a mistake
[03:19] <bodhizazen> and you are trying to use the greater ubuntu community as a venue to  push your opinion
no  will put day and night to get this knowledge..am very happy dat somebody is der to help
[03:20] <bodhizazen> You are not speaking for the Ubuntu community
[03:20] <doctormo> Vantrax: Those not involved in the community are invisible to it, bodhizazen is not invisible in this community is he?
[03:20] <bodhizazen> you may be speaking for yourself
[03:20] <bodhizazen> who do you speak for doctormo ?
[03:20] <bodhizazen> who or what group  is speaking when you tell me I am wrong ?
[03:20] <Vantrax> doctormo: I can see where you are coming from, and you are right that people should evaluate FOSS solutions as well as free, and propriatary solutions, but adding in an implicit demand to do so is wrong
[03:20] <bodhizazen> what horizon is this ?
[03:20] <cprofitt> doctormo, there are many ways to give back are there not?
[03:21] <cprofitt> using one 'non Free Software' app is not a cardinal sin, or is it?
[03:21] <bodhizazen> and what makes you think it is "better" or that I owe it something ?
[03:21] <Vantrax> if it is.. im screwed:P
 hello u der??
[03:21] <pwnguin> emacs: yes
[03:21] <doctormo> Did I make a demand? no, I said that it was socially harmful to not consider the community and social perspectivies, I didn't say people should be hung for ignoring that perspective.
[03:21] <Vantrax> yes, that statement is correct
[03:21] <bodhizazen> So you are speaking for yourself ?
[03:21] <doctormo> cprofitt: no it's not wrong to use clsoe source, I use them myself
[03:22] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, I think I see what he is saying...
[03:22] <Vantrax> the implication of a requirement to is the problem
[03:22] <cprofitt> he is just not sure that you weighed the options...
[03:22] <bodhizazen> if so, then please do not add in FOSS, the ubuntu community , or me as a part of your community of one
[03:22] <cprofitt> and you are coming from a person slamming Mono because of his mis-perceptions
[03:22] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: chill bud:P hes expressing a valid opinion, just not quite in the right way
i hav one doubt...i heard kernel programing is some wat tough is it so??
[03:23] <bodhizazen> no, he is doing it in a  very bad way
[03:23] <cprofitt> I think this topic has gone astray... I think you are both in the same camp... but not expressing it well in words...
[03:23] <bodhizazen> mixing his personal opinions with the ubutnu community
[03:23] <Vantrax> cprofitt: yep
[03:23] <bodhizazen> speaking as he is an authorative voice in some larger community
[03:23] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, unless I missed it I do not think he has stated that he speaks for the community
[03:23] <bodhizazen> making himself seem somehow more important or superior
[03:23] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: hes mixing different voices from different parts of the greater community into the ubuntu community
[03:23] <doctormo> Actually my personal opinions are completly different, I'm only discussing my social perspective here.
[03:24] <Vantrax> specifically those that follow stalman
[03:24] <cprofitt> just that you need to consider the impact on the community when you decide to not use Free Software
[03:24] <bodhizazen> doctormo	Did I make a demand? no, I said that it was socially harmful to not consider the community and social perspectivies, I didn't say people should be hung for ignoring that perspective.
[03:24] <Vantrax> cprofitt: +1 that is exactly what both of you are saying
[03:24] <bodhizazen> what community is that ^^
[03:24] <doctormo> Vantrax: actually not quite, he would argue that it's wrong to use closed source in any situation, I'm just calling for consideration of social responsibilities, I'm not saying people have to follow them.
can u plz get me ur email id......so dat hav  a touch wid u
[03:24] <Vantrax> the FOSS community, bodhizazen even I can agree with that one
[03:24] <bodhizazen> what comminity is "the community"
[03:24] <doctormo> cprofitt: +1
[03:25] <cprofitt> he is using the word community bodhizazen , but not that he is speaking for it...
[03:25] <pwnguin> emacs: well, it's publicly available as jldugger@ubuntu.com
[03:25] <bodhizazen> what community ?
[03:25] <cprofitt> he is saying that in being a community leader, which you are, that you bear a greater burden when making choices
[03:25] <pwnguin> emacs: but you migth be better served seeking out the minix community
[03:25] <bodhizazen> cprofitt	just that you need to consider the impact on the community when you decide to not use Free Software
[03:25] <cprofitt> dues to the visibility to the ubuntu community
[03:25] <cprofitt> if I am reading this correctly
[03:25] <Vantrax> I think its fair to say that the general consensus from the Ubuntu Community is that  you need to consider the impact on the community when you decide to not use Free Software
[03:25] <pwnguin> emacs: #minix
[03:25] <bodhizazen> what community is "the community"
[03:25] <bodhizazen> FOSS ?
[03:25] <cprofitt> I assume the Ubuntu community bodhizazen
[03:26] <bodhizazen> Ubuntu ?
[03:26] <bodhizazen> doctormo ?
[03:26] <cprofitt> but he has not clarified that
[03:26] <pwnguin> emacs: they'll be better able to help you than I
[03:26] <doctormo> bodhizazen: If I said the human community would you feel like you were a part of it?
[03:26] <bodhizazen> probably not in the way you wish to use it doctormo
[03:26] <Vantrax> no, bodhi is a robot...
[03:26] <Vantrax> :P
[03:26] <bodhizazen> you want to start with a borad community
[03:26] <Vantrax> both of you need to take a step back
[03:26] <bodhizazen> "the human community"
[03:27] <bodhizazen> or "the Ubuntu community"
[03:27] <doctormo> It's really hard to debate metafore and philosophy like this...
[03:27] <Vantrax> seriously...
[03:27] <Vantrax> metaphor:P
[03:27] <bodhizazen> and then you want to push your ideas as if they come from that larger community
[03:27] <bodhizazen> which they do not
[03:27] <bodhizazen> your ideas come from a small group
[03:27] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: tell me if you would agree to this statement:  its fair to say that the general consensus from the Ubuntu Community is that  you need to consider the impact on the community when you decide to not use Free Software
[03:28] <Vantrax> as a leader in the community
[03:28] <bodhizazen> a sub group of humans / Ubutnu / FOSS / possibly as small as doctormo
[03:28] <bodhizazen> I disagree with that Vantrax
[03:28] <Vantrax> why?
[03:28] <doctormo> bodhizazen: That is a lrge assuption and may even be classes as an insult.
[03:28] <bodhizazen> I do not see that anywhere in the Ubutn documentation
[03:28] <emacs> thanks alot <pwnguin>before i should to go for further details i like to study dat book.......
[03:29] <bodhizazen> it is just as insulting you asking me if I am a member of the human community
[03:29] <doctormo> bodhizazen: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct sections 1 and 3
[03:29] <bodhizazen> you keep using this term "the community" without definign it
[03:30] <bodhizazen> what about it doctormo ?
[03:31] <doctormo> I keep on not defining 'community' because I'm not being specific, I'm talking about communities in community language with social group theory and it's very hard to translate that into indervidual terms.
[03:31] <Vantrax> doctormo did you do sociology somewhere in there...
i only know the basics of C but kernel programming demands advanced programming...can u plz help me
[03:31] <bodhizazen> you shift the word community into whatever purpose you want
[03:31] <Vantrax> I can kinda get what your saying from some of the research I did in anthropology
[03:32] <doctormo> bodhizazen: It only seems like that, I'm not out to get you and I don't want to control you.
[03:32] <bodhizazen> you say I harm "the community" or that I need to consider "the community" when I run a closed source application
[03:32] <pwnguin> emacs: i dont know of any books; that's the sort of stuff we make undergrads spend a semester on
[03:32] <bodhizazen> what community is that doctormo ?
[03:32] <Vantrax> community is a word that has no implicit meaning other than to say a group of people
[03:32] <bodhizazen> you don't want to control me ?
[03:32] <doctormo> bodhizazen: nope
[03:32] <bodhizazen> why then do you care what program I run ?
[03:32] <Vantrax> bodhi, so you think other people look up to you in the community?
[03:32] <pwnguin> doctormo doesn't want to control you, just judge you
[03:33] <bodhizazen> and why do you tell me I have some kind of responsibility to some unspecified community ?
[03:33] <Vantrax> in our community I know alot of people that look up to you
[03:33] <Vantrax> our community being defined as UBT to make it easier
[03:33] <bodhizazen> I have never been a part of Ubuntu to earn respect :)
or you v=can give name of good sites
[03:34] <Vantrax> Many who make decisions at least partly based on you
plz dont tell no
[03:34] <Vantrax> that includes the example you set
[03:34] <pwnguin> emacs: sorry, I really don't know of any. it's a major deficiency of mine. you might ask #minix that question
[03:34] <Vantrax> Take mono as an example, I never considering using it until you talked about it
[03:35] <Vantrax> the fact that you do, made me consider something that I previously had dismissed
[03:35] <pwnguin> emacs: my undergrad class in that was all homework, handouts and lectures, no book
[03:35] <Vantrax> Not that that should stop you from using it, but you should be aware that you have an impact on people
[03:35] <bodhizazen> Well, I reject setting the example of telling people what they can run on their computers
[03:36] <Vantrax> Definately not, that is a very extreme way of making a point
[03:36] <doctormo> bodhizazen: That example only exists on stallman's website, not in any of my thoughts.
[03:36] <Vantrax> you can see my point can you not bodhi?
[03:36] <emacs> ok thanks alot<pwnguin>
[03:36] <doctormo> I tried to type a few resonses, but I decided that I couldn't really word things right yet.
[03:36] <bodhizazen> doctormo: then you should probably not suggest the kinds of things you suggest
[03:37] <doctormo> sorry if it appears I'm not answering your questions.
[03:37] <bodhizazen> I think it is best to supoprt the open source community by teaching and supporting alternate solutions where they exist
[03:38] <bodhizazen> and improving where they do not
[03:38] <doctormo> bodhizazen: yes!
[03:38] <doctormo> [22:38] <bodhizazen> and improving where they do not *CHEEER*
[03:38] <doctormo> So you agree that you should improve the situation for music teaching software in the open source community?
[03:38] <bodhizazen> I really thing telling people what they can and can not run on their computers did not work for Microsoft and it works less sell fo rFOSS
[03:39] <bodhizazen> no
[03:39] <bodhizazen> why should I
[03:39] <doctormo> But you just said why
[03:39] <bodhizazen> you really can not impose or dictate what I should or should not do
[03:39] <bodhizazen> the term is much better used
[03:39] <bodhizazen> are you willing to assist the open mucsic community ?
[03:40] <bodhizazen> you should be inviting people, not telling they should be a member
[03:40] <bodhizazen> big difference
[03:41] <doctormo> This is about social ettiquet, consideration and community. It has nothing to do with my opinions and my dictations. I order you to make me a damned sandwich and then you can scrub my feet!
[03:41] <bodhizazen> Look at the difference in these tow statements
[03:41] <bodhizazen> If you use Ubuntu, we invite you to give back to the community.
[03:41] <doctormo> the problem is, you invite yourself into the community and then start exluding parts of it for your own social norms to be acceptable.
[03:41] <bodhizazen> You can do this by contributing code, documentation, etc ...
[03:41] <bodhizazen> vs
[03:42] <bodhizazen> If you use Ubuntu, you must give back to the community ....
[03:42] <bodhizazen> and doctormo I have done no such thing
[03:42] <doctormo> bodhizazen: And you'll note it does not say "You can contribute to the Ubuntu community by using closed software and not helping your fellow community members"
[03:43] <bodhizazen> when you make that statement, you are not speaking for the Ubuntu community
[03:43] <bodhizazen> I can not tell if you are speaking for yourself or FOSS
[03:43] <cprofitt> If Ubuntu were so closed it would be more like Fedora and not include restricted drivers... yes?
[03:44] <bodhizazen> but you are applying what you think should be social norms and are intolerant of any who have different social norma
[03:44] <bodhizazen> *norms*
[03:45] <bodhizazen> not everyone has the same standards for "norms" as you do doctormo
[03:46] <doctormo> indeed, it's apparent that I'm not welcome in this community any more.
[03:46] <bodhizazen> and I am willing to bet it is a minority of people in the Ubuntu community that feel I am in some way harming the community by usign a closed source application
[03:46] <Vantrax> I think the only problem here is doctormo tends to the very catagorial in his statements, from what I can see the intention is the same
[03:47] <bodhizazen> I am concerned doctormo has an agenda that is not a part of what I envision for this project and I prefer to root it out before it goes too far :)
[03:47] <bodhizazen> which is the only reason I engaged in this "debate"
[03:48] <bodhizazen> It appears it is his way or no way
[03:48] <bodhizazen> apparently if we do not agree with his mandates he is unwelcome
[03:48] <bodhizazen> frankly I have a problem with that
[03:49] <Vantrax> bodhizazen he didnt say that
[03:49] <bodhizazen> yes he did
[03:49] <bodhizazen> doctormo	indeed, it's apparent that I'm not welcome in this community any more.
[03:49] <bodhizazen> *** doctormo left #ubuntu-learning ("Konversation terminated!")
[03:49] <Vantrax> you have changed several things he said, he often makes categorical statements when his position is somewhat less
[03:49] <Vantrax> again, its a cultural thing too
[03:50] <bodhizazen> whatever it is, it is not welcome here
[03:50]  * bodhizazen is intolerant of intolerance
[03:51] <bodhizazen> doctormo: if you wish to be a part of this community, meaning the UCLP, I would appreciate it if :
[03:51] <pwnguin> well that conversation was less than unproductive
[03:51] <Vantrax> before this goes any further, you both have a valid opinion from completely different perspectives
[03:51] <bodhizazen> 1. You were more tolerant / respectful of those who you do not agree with
[03:51] <bodhizazen> 2. did not push your personal agenda onto this project
[03:52] <bodhizazen> this project is not about dictating what people should run on their computers
[03:53] <Vantrax> bodhi everyone has a personal agenda in this project, including you, that is an unrealistic expectation. The best we can ask is that everyones agenda be compatable with the same overal goals and be willing to discuss things
[03:53] <pwnguin> is someone proposing courseware on closed source software?
[03:53] <Vantrax> You can run whatever you want on your computer, but as the community is about open source, that is preferred.
[03:54] <bodhizazen> It is incompatible when people start telling me what I can run on my computer
[03:54] <pwnguin> if not, I'm at a total loss about what the point of the last hour of conversation.
[03:54] <pwnguin> was.
[03:54] <bodhizazen> pwnguin: It is about freedom
[03:54] <doctormo> We are in this thing together, we have all blunted our agendas in order to meet in an agreeable, focused middle ground. I will not drop my agenda because it would mean me dropping my participation. My agenda is "To create materials and lesson plans suitable for teaching systems administration to community center administrators"
[03:54] <bodhizazen> freedom to use one's computer they way the wish
[03:55] <Vantrax> bodhizazen, your opinions do matter more than you might realise.
[03:55] <cprofitt> I need to get some sleep folks... night
[03:55] <doctormo> cprofitt: good night, good work on the lessons
[03:55] <Vantrax> We all need to be careful as our comments can appear to be advocating someting rather than just explaining a position, either your own, or more what you view of the community
[03:56] <bodhizazen> doctormo: you are welcome to participate on this team
[03:56] <bodhizazen> but you are not welcome to push a political or social agenda
[03:56] <pwnguin> People should use Ubuntu!
[03:56] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: hes on the board, as are you, of course he is welcome
[03:56] <pwnguin> no agenda? don't be ridiculus
[03:56] <doctormo> I'm all politics and social, would you exclude me?
[03:56] <bodhizazen> or to mandate / dictate what people must or should run on their compters
[03:56] <Vantrax> he is also allowed to push and agenda, as we all, but that agenda must be moderated
[03:57] <pwnguin> is this the ubuntu learning project or the "whatever, we don't care, learning project"
[03:57] <Vantrax> arguments must be controlled and polite and disagreements resolved
[03:58] <Vantrax> We all have a social agenda with this, doctormo's is as he said:To create materials and lesson plans suitable for teaching systems administration to community center administrators
[03:58] <bodhizazen> no, I do not really agree with pushing agendas in that way Vantrax
[03:58] <bodhizazen> I think that will not work
[03:58] <Vantrax> Im more new users and sysadmins in my focus
[03:58] <doctormo> bodhizazen: I think you are confusing me with someone or something else. :-/
[03:58] <bodhizazen> promoting to teaching Ubuntu is one thing
[03:58] <bodhizazen> mandating that people MUST use Ubuntu is another
[03:59] <Vantrax> Im very sure that doctormo does not hold that opinion and there has been a miscommunication
[03:59] <power885> pwnguin u der??
[03:59] <doctormo> Vantrax: I do not you are correct
[03:59] <pwnguin> power885: i am
[03:59] <Vantrax> I belive doctormo belives strongly that if you are a member of the community you should contribute
[04:00] <Vantrax> I belive that doctormo has also made statements that were more catagorical than intended that resulted in him seeming rather extreme
[04:00] <pwnguin> question: contributing is the definition of community membership, no?
[04:00] <Vantrax> I belive his position is that you should consider using and supporting an open source project before chosing a closed or propriatary solution
[04:00] <Vantrax> pwnguin: in a formal sense yes
my previous name was emacs ...i checked minix but no body is der to help me ...i just disappointed
[04:01] <Vantrax> Not that you cant, but that you should consider them
[04:01] <pwnguin> power885: IRC is a hit and miss system. #ubuntu-learning is idle a lot of the time
[04:01] <doctormo> power885: The forums are a good resource.
[04:02] <pwnguin> for minix?
[04:02] <doctormo> pwnguin: I didn't say which forums ;-)
[04:02] <Vantrax> I belive he is also worried that as you are well known in the community your decisions will (and do) impact on other peoples decisions and that you should be careful on how you portray those decisions.
[04:02] <bodhizazen> I would very much like to use an opne source project for say SmartMusic, voice recogintion, and say accounting
[04:02] <doctormo> I think we believe the same things.
[04:03] <bodhizazen> by accounting I mean serious business accounting, not "home accounting" or ballancing a checkbook
[04:03] <pwnguin> power885: it may take 24 hours observing when an IRC channel is active
[04:03] <pwnguin> power885: or you can find a mailing list
[04:03] <bodhizazen> with those 3 examples, there is no open source option
so now i decided to kick start with that book which u hav given to me...l
[04:03] <pwnguin> and wait 24 hours for replies to a question
[04:03] <Vantrax> And that is fine, but if there was I know you would support it
[04:03] <bodhizazen> and I can not put my life on hold waiting for open source optins
[04:03] <pwnguin> power885: which book?
[04:03] <bodhizazen> so, that leaves closed source
[04:03] <Vantrax> I think that is all doctormo wanted to hear
[04:04] <Vantrax> There are many areas like that
[04:04] <bodhizazen> and I really do not believe doctormo or anyone else has the right to criticize that choice
Operating Systems Design and Implementation (3rd Edition)
[04:04] <pwnguin> gnucash is actually better suited to serious business accounting
[04:04] <pwnguin> power885: ok.
[04:04] <bodhizazen> not pwnguin it is not
[04:04] <bodhizazen> it appears to be
[04:04] <bodhizazen> but it is not
[04:05] <bodhizazen> there are huge areas of business accounting that do not exist in gnucash
[04:05] <pwnguin> i will admit, it's missing some loan wizards and amortization schedules, but this is wildly off-topic
[04:05] <doctormo> bodhizazen: I don't think it's my right to criticize your personal choices, they yours to make.
is der any problem in using linux...rather minix
[04:05] <bodhizazen> it is missing, or it was last time I looked, payroll for example
[04:06] <bodhizazen> and , again last time I looked, there really is no way to import and existing project from say Quickbooks to gnucash
[04:06] <pwnguin> power885: minix is instructional, linux is not. this can make it hard to get started, and hard to understand
[04:06] <pwnguin> im pretty sure it supports QIX
[04:07] <pwnguin> err
[04:07] <power885> sorry i havent used minix...from wer i will get minix
[04:07] <doctormo> pwnguin: It supports quicken but not quick books, it's a horrible thing to have to tell new ubuntu users that their stuffed
[04:07] <Vantrax> I think the critisisim was more the case of doctormo's habit of making catagorical statements more than anything. I tend to do that now and then too, my wife is working hard to beat it out of me
[04:07] <bodhizazen> have you tried to import a busness from quickbooks to gnucash ?
[04:07] <pwnguin> nope; clearly i speak from a position of ignorance
[04:08] <pwnguin> i see import QIF and QFX
[04:08] <pwnguin> and some others
[04:08] <bodhizazen> Well, you really should try it then before you spead as if it is a viable option
[04:08] <doctormo> Vantrax: be careful she doesn't beat it out of you too much, otherwise we'd never be able to debate socioledgy.
[04:08] <pwnguin> i wonder why it's not better
[04:08] <bodhizazen> It is like claiming the gimp is an acceptable tool for professional photography, which it is not
[04:08] <doctormo> ;-)
 sorry i havent used minix...from wer i will get minix
[04:08] <Vantrax> That is probably a fair comment
[04:09] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: it is fair to say it is a useful tool and to check it out
[04:09] <Vantrax> but that it might not satify professional requirements.
[04:09] <pwnguin> power885: minix is very similar to linux
[04:10] <pwnguin> power885: its advantage is that it doesn't change over time, so you can say "the process scheduler is in scheuder.c and contains a queue of ready to run processes" etc
[04:11] <bodhizazen> pwnguin: are you suggesting that if I use gnucash it will improve ?
[04:11] <bodhizazen> because that has not worked with the gimp
[04:11] <bodhizazen> I use the gimp exclusively ,have done so for years
[04:11] <doctormo> bodhizazen: That's the theory, but it's based on the voting idea, one vote isn't worth much, but a few thousand are.
[04:12] <pwnguin> bodhizazen: im suggesting that there's enough people who need it, that there might be some upstream hurdles
[04:12] <bodhizazen> but it is no closer to a professional photography then it was several years ago
[04:12] <pwnguin> i recall reading about a budgeting bruhaha
[04:12] <pwnguin> where someone wanted to make a personal budget, and someone else wanted to make a prospective investment budget tool
[04:12] <pwnguin> and it just sat there and died
[04:13] <bodhizazen> and doctormo I am suggesting that I is perfectly reasonable to, after evaluating the options, go with closed source as well
wats sys req needed for installing
[04:13] <power885> minix
[04:13] <pwnguin> heh
[04:13] <pwnguin> minix 2.0 required a 286
[04:14] <pwnguin> you should be able to run minix in a virtual machine like qemu
[04:14] <doctormo> bodhizazen: But perhaps it's also reasonable to give $5 towards making the open option better while you choose the closed one.
[04:14] <bodhizazen> doctormo: you are making a number of assumptions , and you know what happens when you do such things ?
[04:15] <doctormo> bodhizazen: We get into a fight where neither of us gets anything useful out of it.
[04:15] <pwnguin> what happens when a professional photographer uses gimp anyways?
[04:15] <bodhizazen> first you are assuming that I have not made any cash contributions
[04:15] <bodhizazen> depends on what the photographer wants to do
[04:15] <power885> is der any packages in ubuntu for minix
[04:15] <pwnguin> power885: ... no
[04:16] <doctormo> I do lots of searches on deviantArt for gimp, inkscape, ubuntu and other foss tools, support is growing and it has it's fans.
[04:16] <pwnguin> inkscape rocks
[04:17] <doctormo> pwnguin: indeed it does! :-D
[04:17] <pwnguin> my mom uses it to make paper cuts for her crafts machine
[04:17] <Vantrax> yeah i like inkscape too
[04:17] <bodhizazen> so , when the gimp meets the needs of a professional photographer, professional photographers will use it
[04:18] <bodhizazen> the gimp project would need to set that as a goal and work at it
 is  der any packages 4 qemu in ubuntu
[04:18] <pwnguin> power885: yes
[04:18] <bodhizazen> but in the mean time, what is a professional to to ?
[04:18] <bodhizazen> and how does shaming him or her help the cause of the gimp ?
[04:19] <pwnguin> power885: i will teach you a great ubuntu tip
[04:19] <pwnguin> power885: open a terminal
[04:19] <power885> after installing qemu wat should i do
[04:19] <pwnguin> power885: apt-cache search qemu
[04:19] <pwnguin> or apt-cache search <anything>
[04:20] <pwnguin> power885: im not gonna be around 24/7
[04:20] <pwnguin> power885: a good academic in this day and age needs to be able to do preliminary research with google and whatnot
[04:21] <power885> sorry... <pwnguin> if really disturbed u
[04:22] <pwnguin> power885: well, I just don't want to be on the hook as your personal instructor
[04:23] <pwnguin> if i wanted students, i would have applied for the CS dept position
[04:24] <bodhizazen> I wonder if "ambassadors" of the open source community undermine it when they tell people what that should and should not run on their computers
[04:24] <pwnguin> occasional questions are fine, but you should try finding a wider audience to answer questions
[04:24] <bodhizazen> and  I wonder if holding out open source projects as if they are viable solutions, without acknowledging the shortcomings leads to disappointment ?
[04:25] <doctormo> huh where did he go?
[04:26] <doctormo> I'm the leader of a LoCo, I have a ton of experence in balancing people's expectations.
[04:27] <Vantrax> he quit
[04:29] <pwnguin> time to go play metriod
[04:29] <pwnguin> hope nobody tries to shame me while I'm away
[04:29] <Vantrax> lol
[04:30] <Vantrax> pwnguin: it was all a misunderstanding taken way out of context into ideology land
[04:35] <doctormo> pwnguin: I thought yours points were very insightful during the debate.
[04:36] <pwnguin> honestly i wasnt paying attention
[04:37] <pwnguin> its words are meaningless in the echo chamber
[04:40] <pwnguin> s/its//
[04:43] <doctormo> http://www.hulu.com/watch/60290/futurama-lower-case
[04:52] <Vantrax> so, now that that fun is all over:P How is everyone
[04:53] <doctormo> OK, shaken at the agresivness of the missunderstanding, but ok.
[04:55] <bodhizazen> fortunately it is a short drive home :)
[04:55] <pwnguin> i dont think anyone expected you to quit IRC
[04:55] <bodhizazen> I would like to apologize if I offended people in this channel earlier
[04:55] <bodhizazen> naw, I am an IRC junky
[04:56] <pwnguin> what i mean is
[04:56] <pwnguin> it was wierd to see you drop
[04:56] <pwnguin> 21:31 -!- bodhizazen [i=ce7f4f8a@ubuntu/memer/bodhizazen] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"]
[04:56] <pwnguin> 21:31 < doctormo> huh where did he go?
[04:56] <bodhizazen> yea, such is life on a windows box :(
[04:56] <bodhizazen> I find they are not as reliable
[04:57] <pwnguin> i have it on good authority that windows has ssh clients
[04:57] <pwnguin> such that you may enjoy the benefits of screen+irssi
[04:57] <bodhizazen> and this one likes what is known is some circles as the blue screen of death
[04:57] <bodhizazen> yea, but that would almost certainly be against policies
[04:58] <Vantrax> lol
[04:58] <pwnguin> as opposed to mibbit
[04:58] <bodhizazen> mibbit is on port 80 and is allowed
[04:58] <doctormo> Damn politics, always gets in the way
[04:58] <bodhizazen> they do not allow use of other ports
[04:58] <pwnguin> well, run ssh on port 80
[04:58] <bodhizazen> while that could be done, it would be a violation of policy
[04:59] <pwnguin> then run it on port 443
[04:59] <bodhizazen> you see, it is not a technical problem
[04:59] <bodhizazen> why do any of that ?
[05:00] <bodhizazen> simply tunnel traffic over port 22
[05:00] <doctormo> pwnguin: That's a technical solution begging for a political one.
[05:00] <pwnguin> of course it is
[05:00] <pwnguin> but last i checked, ganhdi didn't run for parliment
[05:01] <bodhizazen> but circumvention of the coroporate firewall is not a good idea :)
[05:01] <pwnguin> and i dont see how mibbit is okay but telnet is not
[05:01] <Vantrax> ganhdi didnt work in a practice with legal implications on client data
[05:01] <pwnguin> yes he did
[05:01] <pwnguin> he was a lawyer
[05:01] <bodhizazen> and not a good thing to promote to young impressionable minds who do not understand the consequences either ;)
[05:02] <pwnguin> im just saying if your policy forbids encrypted tunnels
[05:02] <Vantrax> i was speaking medical but fair enough, the second point still applied
[05:03] <pwnguin> then it should probably prohibit mibbit as well
[05:03] <bodhizazen> Well , I understand why they have such policies
[05:03] <bodhizazen> and that is not the same as saying I agree with them
[05:03] <bodhizazen> I also believe it is wrong to violate them
[05:03] <pwnguin> anyways
[05:04] <bodhizazen> and the repercussions are larger then you imagine, or you would not suggest such a thing
[05:05] <pwnguin> i mean, mibbit itself is a technical workaround
[05:05] <pwnguin> its an http tunnel for chat
[05:05] <bodhizazen> yes, but it is like stock car racing
[05:05] <bodhizazen> Client side it is http traffic
[05:06] <bodhizazen> which is allowed
[05:06] <pwnguin> so then you don't use the https port?
[05:06] <bodhizazen> and while stock cars may use jet fuel (I don't know), that does not mean they can use jet engines :):
[05:07] <pwnguin> stock cars use stock engines
[05:07] <pwnguin> and
[05:07] <pwnguin> their history is about smuggling
[05:07] <pwnguin> beer, not data
[05:07] <doctormo> bodhizazen: you could use a translation and do an ssh to http bridge, bit of programming to pull off but not totally daft.
[05:07] <Vantrax> ...
[05:07] <Vantrax> talk about over engineering...
[05:08] <bodhizazen> yea I could, but I should not as I have been forbidden my my IT department
[05:08] <pwnguin> should i email your iT department a link to mibbit?
[05:08] <Vantrax> lol NOOO
[05:08] <Vantrax> then he cant come on at all
[05:08] <bodhizazen> you can, does not matter
[05:08] <doctormo> bodhizazen: You have been forbidden to run http?
[05:08] <bodhizazen> they monitor everything already
[05:09] <bodhizazen> which is why I like to feed them CK links
[05:09] <doctormo> weird, anyway I understand your position and I salute your none agrieve policy.
[05:09] <pwnguin> i just dont understand the policy
[05:09] <bodhizazen> well, they are a bunch of Windows types who think they know how to sys admin because they can click a mouse
[05:10] <pwnguin> if you don't want disclosure, allowing port 80 and 443 doesn't solve it
[05:10] <pwnguin> heh
[05:10] <bodhizazen> They got their "degrees" in the days before CS was a major in college
[05:10] <pwnguin> i doubt that
[05:10] <pwnguin> my dad majored in CS in 1980
[05:10] <Vantrax> lol
[05:10] <bodhizazen> and they think that they know how to secure a network
[05:10] <pwnguin> well, 1976
[05:11] <pwnguin> secure a network from what?
[05:11] <Vantrax> run port sec and tell people they can do whatever they can get away with
[05:11] <bodhizazen> which involves putting a VNX server on every work station, running a web proxy , and monitoring all traffic in an out
[05:11] <Vantrax> or just use layer3 switches and use the management tools build in...
[05:11] <Vantrax> muppets...
[05:12] <pwnguin> im still lost on the ssl thing: do they just block port 443?
[05:12] <bodhizazen> And they do not like port forwarding because they they either can not monitor activity or they more likely see the traffic as irregular and feel they have an intruder
[05:12] <pwnguin> also, their solution to protecting client data is to forbid encrypting it?
[05:12] <bodhizazen> you are assuming that they know of encryption
[05:13] <bodhizazen> They know VNC
[05:13] <Vantrax> ...
[05:13] <bodhizazen> not VNC + encryption, just VNC
[05:13] <bodhizazen> And they think VNC servers on every workstation is secure
[05:13] <Vantrax> and they pay these roookies?
[05:14] <Vantrax> my labbies know more than this...
[05:14] <pwnguin> you know, the recent blackboard+angel merger has a lot of colleges looking at moodle
[05:14] <Vantrax> were using blackboard atm
[05:14] <pwnguin> we're using both =(
[05:14] <Vantrax> I hope they move to moodle
[05:14]  * pwnguin == they
[05:15] <doctormo> I'm a programmer and I know more than that
[05:15] <bodhizazen> Anyways, I am sure you have heard it all before
[05:15]  * bodhizazen puts on dad hat
[05:16] <Vantrax> i have, we have had this conversation a few times:P
[05:16] <bodhizazen> now children, please do not teach people to punch holes in private firewalls (school, corporate, military, or pr0n) :)
[05:16] <pwnguin> bah
[05:16]  * bodhizazen takes of daddy hat
[05:16] <pwnguin> we used to have a policy against running putty.exe
[05:16] <pwnguin> if you renamed it putt.exe, everything workie!
[05:17] <bodhizazen> yea, just change the name to not_putty.exe :)
[05:17] <bodhizazen> Doh !
[05:17] <pwnguin> i did that, and showed it to coworkers
[05:17] <doctormo> Bah, they used to have security running from Novell Netware in college, it was but a vba script away from being dismantled.
[05:17] <pwnguin> a firewall is not security
[05:18] <bodhizazen> you know the funny thing about that ?
[05:18] <pwnguin> and there was 0 need for the rule anyways
[05:18] <bodhizazen> windows users feel more secure because they can firewall applications, lol
[05:18] <pwnguin> it was a public workstation with no access to anything sensetive
[05:18] <Vantrax> if you run a network and you want it secure you run port security on layer 3 switches so you can manage things at the infastruture level, not the desktop level
[05:19] <Vantrax> you could do ANYTHING to your desktop, and I could still block you
[05:19] <Vantrax> well... a USB WAP dongle from a cellular company would work.. but aside from that...
[05:20] <doctormo> Well I think I've learned a lot about openwrt this evening ;-) now that I have a working jabber server locally with hairpin routing,
[05:20] <Vantrax> openwrt is awsome
[05:20] <pwnguin> i liked tomato's interface
[05:20] <Vantrax> if you want to learn about it hit up pauldotcom.com
[05:20] <pwnguin> too bad the thing's basically a "don't put this in openwrt" license
[05:21]  * bodhizazen puts on dad hat again
[05:21] <Vantrax> lol
[05:21] <doctormo> Where did bodhizazen get this hat?
[05:21] <bodhizazen> Sorry I do not mean to imply that you are children,
[05:21] <Vantrax> I need one...
[05:21] <Vantrax> do they get issued at the hospital?
[05:21] <doctormo> I have a wizzard hat, it's only fair
[05:21] <Vantrax> ahh
[05:21] <bodhizazen> merely that I am acting overly paternalistic
[05:21]  * bodhizazen takes hat off again
[05:22]  * doctormo looks to see if anyone got the spelling
[05:22] <Vantrax> embedded device hacking with openwrt... FUN
[05:22] <pwnguin> openWRT is a bit lightweight
[05:22] <Vantrax> set up a remote pentester:P
[05:22] <pwnguin> heh
[05:22] <Vantrax> plug it in and walk away
[05:22] <Vantrax> watch the security boys go nuts because they cant find it
[05:23] <Vantrax> no guy with a laptop, just a modified router in the roof
[05:23] <pwnguin> Garmin actually has a guest network set up
[05:23]  * Vantrax loves the powerpoints left in the roof above the floating ceilings
[05:25] <pwnguin> anyways, that place is crazy. i hate their parking garage
[05:25] <pwnguin> designed to sell GPS units, i say
[13:35] <cprofitt> pleia2, I added another course to the Moodle install
[13:35] <cprofitt> nhandler, let me know what you think
[13:35] <pleia2> cprofitt: awesome!
[13:35]  * pleia2 takes a look
[13:38] <pleia2> nice :)
[14:14] <cprofitt> good... next I need to make my own pleia2
[14:14] <pleia2> cprofitt: where are these from?>
[14:16] <cprofitt> They are from various Moodle sites I was familiar with...
[14:16] <pleia2> ah :)
[14:16] <cprofitt> and they are CC of some variation in all cases
[14:17]  * pleia2 nods
[15:09] <cprofitt> hey doctormo dinda
[15:10] <cprofitt> added some courses to our Moodle install
[15:10] <cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=6
[15:11] <cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=5
[15:11] <cprofitt> I will be making a sample course from scratch as well.
[15:11] <doctormo> cprofitt: sounds great
[15:12] <cprofitt> doctormo, let me know what you think of those courses
[15:13] <doctormo> That is AWESOME
[15:14] <doctormo> All of the graphics and tutorials on this site are free to use and redistribute.  Creative Commons LicenseThey are licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.
[15:14] <doctormo> Er,
[15:16] <doctormo> Not only is it wrong is portraying the entire ubuntu-learning site as being CC-BY-NC-SA, but shouldn't the NC be re-licensed?
[15:42] <doctormo> cprofitt: ping
[16:58] <cprofitt> hey doctormo
[16:59] <cprofitt> sorry had to start an emergency server install thanks to a miscommunication from a vendor
[16:59] <cprofitt> doctormo, I think so...
[16:59] <cprofitt> our site is only NC where the previous content was NC and we could not relicense
[17:29] <bodhizazen> cprofitt: thank you for your work on the site
[17:30] <bodhizazen> how do you back up courses ?
[17:30] <bodhizazen> is that as option within moodle ?
[17:35] <dinda> bodhizazen: yes, moodle allows you to zip and archive entire courses
[18:09] <pwnguin> does the moodle video training course have actual videos?
[18:09] <pwnguin> oh, wow
[18:09] <pwnguin> world's smallest controls
[18:11] <bodhizazen> thanks dinda :)
[18:11] <bodhizazen> dinda: any advice on version of moodle to run ?
[18:11] <bodhizazen> should I upgrade to the weekly build ?
[19:32] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, yes it is an option to backup the course.
[19:32] <cprofitt> ah.. Dinda got that answered for you.
[19:33] <dinda> bodhizazen: elmo was recommeding you use a more stable version of moodle and not the latest builds
[19:34] <dinda> bodhizazen: he said for security purposes it's really bad to use latest builds
[19:34] <dinda> bodhizazen: he was going to contact you to discuss
[19:34] <cprofitt> bodhizazen, the option for backup is in the Administration menu when you are an admin for a course
[19:35] <cprofitt> course authors will have the ability to backup their own work and download the file as well.
[19:37] <doctormo> cprofitt: Right, and that content was limited to a single area as far as I knew, one that teaches people how to use moodle
[19:38] <dinda> doctormo: if there are any plans to start charging folks to use the materials or pay instructors, that could be a problem
[19:42] <doctormo> dinda: Indeed, in fact there are incidental issues where a teacher can no charge a binding fee (a small nomial fee to make people stick to comming to lessons) and the fact that it isn't open source and isn't in the spirit of how we do things in this community.
[19:42] <bodhizazen> thanks dinda
[19:43] <bodhizazen> the current version of moodle is from the 9.04 repositories
[19:53] <doctormo> cprofitt, pleia2: Can I get an anwser why a new course has NC restrictions on it?
[20:20] <dinda> doctormo: I'm not sure I'm understanding your last statement - are you saying you want to be able to charge fees?
[20:27] <doctormo> dinda: Of course, it a part of the four freedoms, I don't work on things that are NC because it's a pointless quagmire and legal grey that just puts everyone off.
[20:28] <dinda> doctormo: not sure then about including such materials in this environment - it would be like people in IRC charging fees for their time
[20:29] <doctormo> dinda: Yes, and?
[20:29] <doctormo> There is nothing wrong with them doing so if there was a mechanism for it
[20:29] <doctormo> Preventing them from doing so by legal means, that a whole other ball game.
[20:31] <dinda> yes but if you want to work on commercial training products and then ask Canonical to host them or point our domain to that site, that's a problem for us
[20:32] <bodhizazen> poke cprofitt :)
[20:32] <doctormo> dinda: Yes, didn't someone already come to you and explain this?
[20:33] <doctormo> I thought it had been communicated that we really couldn't do NC, we had meetings and everything
[20:33] <dinda> doctormo: no, our understanding was that the licensing was not settled, we were still waiting to hear final policy decisions
[20:34] <bodhizazen> doctormo: I am not sure that is correct
[20:34] <bodhizazen> I do not think licensing issues have been resolved
[20:34] <doctormo> And they won't be, because no one wants to talk about them. We already set CC-BY-SA as our default license.
[20:35] <doctormo> dinda: And this isn't about us creating commercial products at all, this is about preserving the feedoms of the people that use the materials we produce.
[20:37] <bodhizazen> doctormo: I am not sure you speak for the group on this issue
[20:38] <doctormo> bodhizazen: I'm sure I don't
[20:38] <doctormo> But if this is the kind of communication that's been going on, god help us.
[20:38] <bodhizazen> And as I said last night I have serious concerns about you pushing your personal agenda on this team
[20:38] <bodhizazen> Well, do not speak to dinda as if you speak for the group then
[20:39] <doctormo> I'll try and make myself clearer then, sorry.
[20:39] <doctormo> The group did decide to use CC-BY-SA as the default license.
[20:39] <bodhizazen> As far as I know , no decision has been made
[20:39] <doctormo> I have been pushing my pro open source agenda to get NC banned.
[20:40] <bodhizazen> and we certainly are not out to create conflicts
[20:40] <dinda> doctormo: I just don't see how you can propose to possibly charge fees for course materials within this project
[20:40] <bodhizazen> and there are no plans to charge for our "product"
[20:40] <doctormo> dinda: We don't want to, we just don't want to create legal barriers.
[20:41] <dinda> how is NC a barrier?
[20:41] <doctormo> And we certainly don't want conflict
[20:41] <bodhizazen> doctormo: take care of who you mean by "we"
[20:41] <doctormo> bodhizazen: sorry, I
[20:41] <bodhizazen> you use the term we when you mean I ;)
[20:42] <doctormo> dinda: Why bother having it? Have you ever tried to relicense an NC creative work that's been touched by 5 people?
[20:43] <doctormo> We could really do with cprofitt, pleia2 and Vantrax here right now.
[20:44] <dinda> doctormo: yes, we do it with the desktop course regularly
[20:44] <pleia2> dinda: greg-g could expand upon this (he works with licenses as his day job, where does he work again?) but he strongly cautioned that NC is a very vague term and it can be troublesome legally
[20:45] <pleia2> honestly I don't agree with doctormo that we should charge for courses ever, but I do worry about the NC issues
[20:45] <doctormo> I don't agree with doctormo that we should charge for courses either
[20:46] <pleia2> oh ok
[20:48] <doctormo> pleia2: I was making a hash of trying to explain that others who run physical courses over multiple sessions tend to charge small amounts to encourage people to stick the whole course out. It'd also ban plenty of other third parties from taking advantage of our materials, including Canonical.
[20:50] <dinda> not sure how charging would benefit the project and would veyr much muddy up the project's focus
[20:50] <dinda> it would be like charging for the forums
[20:50] <doctormo> dinda: It wouldn't, and we weon
[20:50] <doctormo> won't
[21:01] <dinda> pleia2: when is the next meeting scheduled?
[21:02] <pleia2> there we go
[21:03] <pleia2> and FWIW, as I told bodhizazen - I'd like to see us do CC-BY-SA whenever possible so anyone can use it, even encourage it! but "we'll accept CC-BY-SA-NC too as is useful"
[21:04] <bodhizazen> doctormo: I will say this in the channel one last time
[21:04] <bodhizazen> your personal agenda is not welcome here
[21:05] <bodhizazen> do not use this team to push it
[21:05] <bodhizazen> This is a serious issue and I am going to ask you be removed from a leadership role
[21:06] <bodhizazen> At least until this can be resolved to my satisfaction
[21:06] <pleia2> dinda: Monday June 15th @ 8pm EDT (00:00 UTC May 19th)
[21:07] <doctormo> bodhizazen: If you are upset that I believe in freedom that much, then I will gladdly remove myself and my involvement from this project.
[21:07] <doctormo> Although it does mean that I will have to create my systems admin course somewhere else, which will be an incredibly wasteful endevour.
[21:08] <bodhizazen> I am upset not with your personal beliefs, yo are welcome to them
[21:08] <doctormo> But I would also like to ask that you step down bodhizazen for your witch hunt and your agenda against open source.
[21:08] <bodhizazen> I am upset you are using this team to push your personal beliefs
[21:09] <bodhizazen> and I do not believe you are giving dinda accurate information about the team
[21:09] <doctormo> Look, I'm trying to look out for the best of the group
[21:09] <doctormo> And while I can mess up how I explain things, that's no need your your attacks
[21:10] <bodhizazen> It is not an attack
[21:10] <doctormo> Yes it is,
[21:10] <bodhizazen> and it is not a witch hunt
[21:10] <bodhizazen> it is a simple fact that you use the term "we" when you mean "I"
[21:10] <bodhizazen> and I do not believe you when you say it is accidental
[21:11] <doctormo> Just because my personal philosophies coincide with the best policies for the group, doesn't mean I'm delibratly trying to get all political
[21:11] <doctormo> I believe that you've taking a grudge against me since last night, one that isn't based on reason
[21:12] <bodhizazen> I believe you are pushing a personal agenda on this project and that it is damaging our relations with canonical
[21:12] <bodhizazen> you are creating conflict
[21:13] <doctormo> I'm not trying to, I'm trying to look after the best interests of the group, and that is with clear and consise licensing. It's not like I'm a lone mad man with these views either.
[21:13] <doctormo> and although you keep on calling me out on some personal agenda, I'd call you out on a personal vendeta.
[21:13] <bodhizazen> Your input is appreciated
[21:13] <bodhizazen> however you go too far sometimes
[21:13] <bodhizazen> and I am deeply concerned
[21:14] <bodhizazen> now you are just being insulting
[21:14] <doctormo> As I am about you bodhizazen, this isn't right, the way your going about this conflict with me is wrong.
[21:14] <bodhizazen> If you have a concern, please bring them to the group so they may be discussed
[21:15] <bodhizazen> How do you propose to resolve our differences ?
[21:15] <dinda> I have to run soon but I hope we can work something out
[21:15] <doctormo> bodhizazen: We should talk, I'm not mad and nor are you, this conflict is rediculous.
[21:16] <bodhizazen> I propose you use the term "I" when you are speaking for yourself
[21:16] <bodhizazen> and not "we"
[21:16] <doctormo> I appologied when you corrected me, what more could I possibly do for you bodhizazen
[21:17] <dinda> doctormo: there's no witch hunt but this is worth exploring, pretty sure Canonical is not going to allow pointing one of our own subdomains to a site that competes directly with our own products
[21:17] <bodhizazen> Please do not create conflict with Canonical
[21:17] <doctormo> dinda: We should take with Canonical too because I don't want to see Canonical excluded from derivitive works
[21:17] <bodhizazen> We are working with Canonical not against Canonical
[21:18] <dinda> doctormo: if you want to create a sys admin course and charge for it, you're welcome but asking us to host it or point to it under this project just doesn't seem right
[21:18] <bodhizazen> Canonical is not our enemy and I will not have you clashing with them
[21:18] <doctormo> dinda: We need to talk seriously and clearly, I don't intent to charge for a course.
[21:18] <dinda> doctormo: and I'm speaking as a community member on that, not as an employee
[21:19] <bodhizazen> +1 dinda
[21:19] <doctormo> I intent to not have materials subject to limitations that are not right and not future proof.
[21:20] <dinda> I want to contribute to this project as a community member myself, so I'm riding the same line b/c it can't conflict with my day job either  ;)
[21:20] <bodhizazen> doctormo: you will need to either agree to the licensing we use on this project, once it has been determined
[21:20] <bodhizazen> or withdraw your work
[21:20] <doctormo> If it's NC I will withdraw, because I don't intend for my work to be abused.
[21:21] <bodhizazen> but I find your dictating to the group how licensing is to work is not in anyone's interest
[21:21] <doctormo> bodhizazen: I'm not,
[21:21] <bodhizazen> doctormo	If it's NC I will withdraw, because I don't intend for my work to be abused.
[21:21] <doctormo> your putting words and thoughts into my mouth that I never have had
[21:21] <pwnguin> i don't understand how NC will cause your work to be abused
[21:21] <pwnguin> however
[21:21] <bodhizazen> seems threatening ^^
[21:21] <bodhizazen> like a 2 year old
[21:21] <dinda> doctormo: me either pwnguin
[21:21] <pwnguin> i dont like NC
[21:21] <bodhizazen> If you do not do what I want I am going to hold my breath until I turn blue
[21:22] <doctormo> bodhizazen: This is turning into personal attacks, please don't
[21:22] <bodhizazen> please
[21:22] <bodhizazen> this is a team
[21:22] <doctormo> Even if I'm 2 I don't deserve it
[21:22] <bodhizazen> then act like an adult
[21:22] <dinda> doctormo: he's restating how he's interpreting your statement
[21:22] <bodhizazen> doctormo	If it's NC I will withdraw, because I don't intend for my work to be abused.
[21:22] <doctormo> Stop with this political nonesense
[21:22] <dinda> hard to tell tone over IRC
[21:22] <bodhizazen> seems awfully immature ^^
[21:23] <dinda> doctormo: don't understand how NC will lead to problems with your your work within this project
[21:23] <bodhizazen> If you have an issue, please bring it to the group to discuss
[21:23] <doctormo> Your attempting to throw me out because of my views and my experenced opinion in the matter of licensing and the fact that it conflicts with Canonical's
[21:23] <pwnguin> personally, i think NC is stupid. if i publish coursework
[21:24] <pwnguin> i can use it in commercial training
[21:24] <dinda> doctormo: not b/c it conflicts with Canonical, but b/c it conflicts with what the project aims to do
[21:24] <bodhizazen> I am asking you to tone down the personal agenda and rhetoric
[21:24] <pwnguin> if someone else publishes coursework, and improves it
[21:24] <pwnguin> suddenly that NC is a real problem
[21:24] <doctormo> bodhizazen: I don't have an agenda, you keep trying to pin one on me though
[21:24] <dinda> pwnguin: you can but if you do that, then we ask that you not ask Canonical to host the original work
[21:25] <bodhizazen> you dont ?
[21:25] <pwnguin> dinda: then i really don't understand the point of ubuntu-learning
[21:25] <bodhizazen> what is this then ?
[21:25] <bodhizazen> doctormo	If it's NC I will withdraw, because I don't intend for my work to be abused.
[21:25] <doctormo> bodhizazen: No, as I've said before, I'm considering what is best for the group
[21:25] <pwnguin> did canonical buy the hardware?
[21:25] <bodhizazen> well, you do not speak for the group
[21:25] <dinda> pwnguin: I thought it was to be like the forums in policy
[21:25] <bodhizazen> you speak for yourself
[21:25] <doctormo> bodhizazen: -1, this is a witch hunt and I won't be party to this abuse
[21:26] <dinda> pwnguin: Canonical is being asked to point our subdomain to your hardware
[21:26] <bodhizazen> and you will need to bring your concerns to the group and abide by a group decision
[21:26] <bodhizazen> just liek everyone else
[21:26] <dinda> pwnguin: how can we do that when the project has plans to let those who want charge fees for their materials?
[21:26] <doctormo> As I will, I could leave and let you win with this rediculousness, but I think you've proven how unfit you are at following the leaders code of conduct.
[21:26] <pwnguin> dinda: well, its not my hardware (didn't bohdi buy it), but whatever.
[21:27] <bodhizazen> dinda: please do not take this incident out of content
[21:27] <dinda> doctormo: that's pretty harsh, don't see any of this as a COC issue
[21:27] <bodhizazen> this project is not going in that direction
[21:28] <bodhizazen> doctormo: I think I have been quite respectful to you
[21:28] <pwnguin> dinda: i dont understand; im not asking to charge money for courseware run on uclp
[21:28] <dinda> pwnguin: then that's fine, the project can continue under its current domain, sys admin setup but I doubt if Canonical will then approve pointing learn.ubuntu.com to that site
[21:28] <bodhizazen> please do not call my concerns a witch hunt
[21:28] <doctormo> bodhizazen: I would disagree, the level of intimidation I feel from you is very high
[21:28] <dinda> pwnguin: that is what doctormo is possibly proposing
[21:29] <dinda> the NC in the licensing prohibits that but he doesn't want that in the licensing
[21:29] <bodhizazen> Perhaps that is because you do not wish to abide by group decisions ?
[21:29] <pwnguin> and i agree with him
[21:29] <pwnguin> NC is a major pita
[21:29] <doctormo> dinda: We can't really tal about the licensing issues until we've gotten this personal issue out of the way
[21:29] <pwnguin> regardless of whether or not learn.ubuntu charges money, NC is still a pita
[21:29] <bodhizazen> doctormo: as I have said
[21:30] <doctormo> bodhizazen: I will need you to cite that please.
[21:30] <bodhizazen> please bring your concerns to the group for discussion
[21:30] <dinda> pwnguin: could be but as I said, if you are asking Canonical to point our subdomain to a potentially competing site with our own partners, then that's a major problem
[21:31] <bodhizazen> dinda: I appreciate what you are saying
[21:31] <pwnguin> dinda: a problem for who?
[21:31] <pwnguin> studnets?
[21:31] <dinda> pwnguin: for Canonical
[21:31] <bodhizazen> I do not believe either pwnguin or doctormo speaks for the group on this issue
[21:31] <dinda> we have agreements with existing training partners
[21:32] <bodhizazen> I believe this issue is one of personal politics for both of them
[21:32] <pwnguin> yikes
[21:32] <doctormo> Man, this is ugly
[21:32] <doctormo> bodhizazen: Your personal agenda is showing.
[21:32] <dinda> pwnguin: i'm trying to think of another area of "community" support/irc/forums/etc where a community project wants to charge fees
[21:33] <pwnguin> you can't?
[21:33] <pwnguin> i can
[21:33] <pwnguin> bestpratical
[21:33] <pwnguin> launchpad.net/bounties
[21:33] <dinda> I can go on the forums or IRC and get free support, or I can buy support from Canonical
[21:33] <doctormo> LoCo, schools, community organisations, Canonical,
[21:33] <pwnguin> ubuntu.com/employment
[21:34] <dinda> if the ubuntu website lists someone in the marketplace or partner place, it's b/c they have a relationship with Canonical
[21:35] <dinda> we don't point to individuals who offer commercial support, only our partners on our sites
[21:35] <pwnguin> lets say i place courseware on learn.ubuntu.com
[21:35] <pwnguin> and i run moodle on a personal server that also has the courseware
[21:36] <pwnguin> does it really matter whether learn.ubuntu.com is NC or not?
[21:37] <pwnguin> i own the copyright, i can publish it and use as i see fit
[21:37] <dinda> not if the learn.ubuntu.com site is under an NC license you can't
[21:38] <doctormo> dinda: I don't believe that's true.
[21:38] <pwnguin> unless you're requiring copyright assignment, that's probably an incorrect statement
[21:39] <dinda> pwnguin: then why even put anyting on the learn.ubuntu.com site if your aims are commercial anyways?
[21:40] <dinda> just develop your own site - plenty of others have
[21:40] <pwnguin> dinda: because collaboration is nice
[21:40] <bodhizazen> +1 dinda
[21:41] <dinda> pwnguin: you can collaborate under an NC license as well as other
[21:42] <bodhizazen> collaboration means abiding by group consensus, not mandating how the group will function
[21:42] <pwnguin> heh
[21:42] <doctormo> dinda: Not if your being paid to do it, and any dervivitive works will be, tricky.
[21:42] <pwnguin> i have seen zero consensus
[21:42] <dinda> anwyways all, i have a printing and shipping deadline so I have to meet so I have to run
[21:42] <pwnguin> i have seen some mandates from canonical
[21:42] <doctormo> Thanks dinda, we should talk more
[21:42] <pwnguin> (as expressed by dinda)
[21:42] <doctormo> pleia2: when's the next meeting? this comming sunday?
[21:42] <dinda> pwnguin: only b/c the project is asking us to point to their site
[21:43] <pleia2> doctormo: monday
[21:43] <pwnguin> but i haven't seen anything approximating consensus
[21:43] <doctormo> pleia2: thanks
[21:43] <dinda> pwnguin: as i said anyone can run their own servers/projects
[21:43] <dinda> later folks!
[21:43] <pleia2> later dinda :)
[21:44] <pwnguin> you can have free unpaid self paced courses (is that not the goal of learn.ubuntu.com?)
[21:44] <bodhizazen> pwnguin: that is why you and doctormo should not speak to dinda as if there is a consensus or that you speak for the group
[21:44] <pwnguin> did I?
[21:44] <doctormo> bodhizazen: Nor can you though
[21:44] <bodhizazen> no, and I appreciate that
[21:44] <bodhizazen> did I doctormo ?
[21:44] <doctormo> [16:27] <bodhizazen> this project is not going in that direction
[21:44] <pwnguin> bodhizazen: i did see you declare what the consensus wasn't
[21:46] <pwnguin> if the learning-project is unpaid and self-paced, i don't see a problem with copying it to a self-hosted site and running courses with instructors behind it
[21:55] <bodhizazen> Well, not to be rude, since the project is running on my server I think I have some say
[21:55] <pwnguin> i guess
[21:55] <pwnguin> what's your say?
[21:55] <bodhizazen> Such is the privilege of running one's own server
[21:55] <bodhizazen> As I have indicated
[21:55] <bodhizazen> I would like to see less personal politics here
[21:56] <bodhizazen> issues need to be discussed and agreed on, like adults
[21:56] <pwnguin> then name a license and see what's left
[21:56] <bodhizazen> When the team is ready to do so I presume that is what will happen
[21:56] <bodhizazen> If you can not agree to that perhaps best to leave now
[21:57] <pwnguin> i can't agree to terms i haven't seen
[21:57] <pwnguin> and who constitutes the team?
[21:57] <bodhizazen> I did not ask you to do so
[21:57] <bodhizazen> I am asking you to work with the team and abide by team decisions
[21:58] <bodhizazen> I do not think we have gotten as far as to have an official list of team members or determine how one joins the team
[21:58] <bodhizazen> It has not come up as of yet
[21:58] <bodhizazen> and this project is still young
[22:00] <bodhizazen> As of right now we have 5 "project board members"
[22:00] <bodhizazen> listed here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
[22:00] <bodhizazen> I presume the 5 will listen to concerns and opinions on issues, such as licensing
[22:00] <bodhizazen> and make a decision
[22:01] <bodhizazen> It that general process is too nebulous, well we can work on better structure and management then
[22:02] <bodhizazen> The point is , we do have a process to function as a team
[22:02] <bodhizazen> One of the goals of this project is in fact to work with Canonical
[22:03] <bodhizazen> As well as other teams, such as the MOTU and Wiki teams to name a few
[22:03] <pwnguin> of course
[22:04] <bodhizazen> So it is not appreciated when you (not you, the proverbial you, ie anyone) disrupts our good relations with the community , including dlinda
[22:05] <bodhizazen> This project has worked very hard to establish good relations with other groups / teams in the community, as well as Canonical
[22:05] <pwnguin> sure
[22:06] <pwnguin> i don't know exactly is on the table
[22:07] <bodhizazen> What are you asking ?
[22:07] <pwnguin> but if a unilateral "CC-BY-SA-NC" mandate is on there, I'm not convinced the Community Council will be enthusiastic
[22:07] <pwnguin> i know a noncommercial clause is killer in MOTU
[22:07] <bodhizazen> At the moment, licensing is up for discussion
[22:08] <bodhizazen> It may be that some projects have different licenses , I really do not know how it will turn out
[22:08] <bodhizazen> It may be we can not please everyone and we will need to decide what to include / exclude
[22:09] <pwnguin> alright. well, without concrete proposals, there's really no point talking in circles
[22:09] <bodhizazen> I agree, no point in talking in circles
[22:09] <bodhizazen> but, there is a point
[22:09] <bodhizazen> and it is important
[22:09] <bodhizazen> the point is, we function as a group
[22:10] <pwnguin> a group of what?
[22:10] <pwnguin> employees, or volunteers?
[22:10] <bodhizazen> we are all volunteers
[22:10] <bodhizazen> there are no employees on this team
[22:10] <bodhizazen> or at least this team does not employee anyone
[22:10] <pwnguin> well don't expect volunteers to be on board with something they emphatically don't like then
[22:10] <bodhizazen> No I do not
[22:11] <bodhizazen> and as such you are free to leave :)
[22:11] <bodhizazen> you are free to assist and discuss topics on this channel
[22:12] <pwnguin> that's not the general impression i got from the discussion between you and doctormo, but fine
[22:12] <bodhizazen> Well doctormo is pushing his own agenda
[22:12] <bodhizazen> and that is different
[22:13] <bodhizazen> I expect doctormo to participate and abide by team decisions
[22:14] <bodhizazen> and I do not appreciate when he presents personal opinions as defacto decisions of this team or project
[22:16] <pwnguin> well, time to pay attention to work again
[22:21] <doctormo> I have the sinking feeling that this team is owned by bodhizazen and what ever he doesn't like will not stick.
[22:21] <doctormo> This isn't good, he's pushing his own agenda and at the same time calling me out on mine.
[22:22] <doctormo> I feel like crap and this conflict has killed my day, I feel threatened, intimidated and not very welcome.
[22:35] <pwnguin> the channel's still logged
[22:40] <bodhizazen> It appears I lost mibbit :(
[22:42] <pwnguin> http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses/NC
[22:42] <pwnguin> some background information on NC (albeit from a biased source)
[22:49] <pwnguin> frankly, im still confused about the viability of courseware under CC at all
[22:51] <pwnguin> if your courseware includes a quiz or exam, are you required to give students the exact answers upon request, before the exam?
[22:52] <doctormo> pwnguin: A very interesting point
[22:52] <pwnguin> i brought this up at the openweek i think
[22:53] <doctormo> Although surely that points to a problem with the idea of exams? I mean we want to promote collaberation and such and the kinds of tests I give my students are practicals
[22:53] <pwnguin> and does a university qualify as noncommercial?
[22:53] <doctormo> pwnguin: I don't believe so
[22:53] <pwnguin> what about a state run university?
[23:00] <doctormo> pwnguin: Commercial is not very well defined, that's one of the problems.
[23:02] <bodhizazen> I think one of the problems we have is that everyone has a strong opinion regarding the issue :)
[23:02] <Vantrax> http://gizmodo.com/343348/confessions-the-meanest-thing-gizmodo-did-at-ces
[23:02] <Vantrax> everyone must watch that:P
[23:02] <bodhizazen> if we can not resolve it or it is beyond this team we may need to discuss it with canonical and the CC
[23:02] <Vantrax> whoha... whats going on?
[23:10] <Vantrax> okies doctormo and bodhizazen we need to clean this up now.
[23:10] <Vantrax> Ive read enough of the logs to get and idea of what happened
[23:11] <bodhizazen> I am open to suggestions
[23:12] <Vantrax> ive seen improvement in some things doctormo from the argument yesterday which is good, but there is a ways to go in how you express your opinions. You can have an opinion, but you must be flexible. Bodhi you arent that different, just at the other end of the spectrum. It is why you are both so valuable to the project.
[23:13] <bodhizazen> My concern is not with doctormo ' s opinions
[23:13] <bodhizazen> my concern is that he is expressing his opinion as if the team is in full support of his position
[23:14] <Vantrax> As far as licensing goes im starting to get sick of the argument. We are going to be going CC-BY-SA for all content we produce interally. HOWEVER we will be using content that is CC-BY-NC-SA where neccesary, specifically in regards to the Desktop Training materials and the how to moodle course
[23:14] <bodhizazen> and that is causing problems with our relations with other teams or groups such as canonical
[23:14] <bodhizazen> If that has been decided, I think that needs to be clear with doctormo
[23:15] <Vantrax> he has a point there doctormo, you do tend to use collective terms a little too much but your input is valuable if you make sure to show its your personal opinion
[23:15] <bodhizazen> because that is not what doctormo has been telling people
[23:15] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: we did agree that where at all possible we would not use NC work, and ask for permission to relicence before putting it up.
[23:16] <Vantrax> HOWEVER we did agree that this is not always a possiblility and to be rational and accept what we are given
[23:16] <bodhizazen> Has that been discussed with canonical ?
[23:16] <doctormo> I tried to be specific with my claims, there was group agreement at a meeting to use CC-BY-SA and at the same meeting I accepted that NC works from two sources had been allowed in because of their imense value to the project.
[23:17] <Vantrax> correct doctormo
[23:17] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: no it has not, we have to formalize it with a project board meeting
[23:18] <Vantrax> I was waiting till after people had a chance to think on it and agree before moving forward with that arrangement.
[23:18] <bodhizazen> Well, we need to work with other teams on this
[23:18] <bodhizazen> especially if the issue is going to be this contentious
[23:19] <Vantrax> Also bodhizazen you do need to be aware that this team is not UBT, and is not run or owned by UBT. You do tend to default to that position and other people have noticed it.
[23:19] <pwnguin> UBT?
[23:19] <Vantrax> Just something to be aware of.
[23:19] <Vantrax> Ubuntu Beginners Team
[23:20] <doctormo> bodhizazen: I do not believe Canonical are actually willing peers on this project, they are working with us, but I fear that there may be a tendancy to pander to their business requirements to the detriment of both the project and to Canonical in the end.
[23:20] <Vantrax> After we agree on this approach to try and keep as much of the materials as CC-BY-SA as possible we will ask for comment from each of the representatives listed
[23:21] <Vantrax> doctormo: canonical have been incredably supportive on this.
[23:21] <Vantrax> they have not tried to influence us in any way
[23:21] <doctormo> Vantrax: Then I'm wrong
[23:21] <Vantrax> mark has emailed me on more than one occasion to say how pleased he is that we are doing this
[23:22] <Vantrax> Now ive noticed that at one point doctormo seemed to be implying he was going to sell or profit from the project
[23:22] <bodhizazen> doctormo: I am deeply concerned you are damaging our relations with canonical
[23:22] <Vantrax> im not sure if i read that right, can you comment on that mo?
[23:22] <doctormo> Vantrax: I don't intend to make a profit from the project.
[23:23] <doctormo> I don't intend to charge for any part of my or anyone elses participation
[23:23] <Vantrax> ok, just for the record no one will ever make a profit from the work we do here.
[23:23] <bodhizazen> That was not the impression you gave to me or dlinda doctormo
[23:23] <pwnguin> ever?
[23:23] <doctormo> ever?
[23:23] <Vantrax> BY-NC-SA someone else can take the work and make a profit.
[23:23] <Vantrax> We will not
[23:24] <pwnguin> ok
[23:24] <Vantrax> probably should watch my wordign
[23:24] <Vantrax> This team will never make a profit from this.
[23:24] <pwnguin> actually
[23:24] <doctormo> CC-BY-SA you mean?
[23:24] <pwnguin> heh
[23:24] <pwnguin> yes, you should probably watch the wording :)
[23:24] <Vantrax> >.< my bad, sorry guys
[23:25] <Vantrax> The one type of finacial support I would not object to is donations to help with the cost of bandwidth, and to possibly one day repay bodhi for buying a server for the project.
[23:26] <Vantrax> that is as far as i would think to go in that area.
[23:26] <doctormo> Vantrax: which would be in violation of NC, so we can't
[23:26] <pwnguin> i think i'd request legal council before making that claim, or refuting it
[23:27] <Vantrax> ahh doctormo that doesnt violate NC
[23:27] <doctormo> pwnguin: Best to consult with greg-g I agree, but I've seen cases of even support adverts been taken down because of that reason. It could be misguidence.
[23:27] <pwnguin> greg-g isn't legal council
[23:27] <doctormo> pwnguin: No but he is experenced
[23:28] <Vantrax> greg-g has done alot of work with CC before
[23:28] <doctormo> Vantrax: He works for the Creative Commons AFAIK
[23:28] <Vantrax> yeah, that was my understanding too
[23:28] <pwnguin> and the first thing i imagine he'll tell you is, "IANAL" :)
[23:29] <Vantrax> anyway, that is something to be worked out later by the board. but that is as far as I would consider going, if it is possible
[23:29] <doctormo> Yes, unemployed programmers do not as a rule have access to lawyers pwnguin. ;-)
[23:29] <pwnguin> here's a scenario to consider
[23:29] <pwnguin> ubuntu-learning is wildly successful; material is posted and available
[23:29] <pwnguin> tons of people use it
[23:29] <Vantrax> yay
[23:30] <Vantrax> I like this so far
[23:30] <pwnguin> far more than there are people to answer questions
[23:30] <pwnguin> how does ubuntu-learning feel about paid tutoring?
[23:31] <Vantrax> as this project no, if canonical decided to do so as a community service thats another story
[23:31] <pwnguin> what i mean is
[23:32] <Vantrax> This is a community volunteer service, ususally a natural equilibrium is reached
[23:32] <pwnguin> students hiring tutors
[23:32] <Vantrax> that is ok, but not as part of this team.
[23:33] <Vantrax> imo that would be a good thing, but we do not need the responsibility for it
[23:33] <pwnguin> how is that line drawn? do you have to quit to participate in making courses or becoming a board member?
[23:33] <Vantrax> the materials are free, people can use them for that purpose, we can even advertise that there is an external service available
[23:33] <Vantrax> I would say no, unless there is a conflict of interest
[23:34] <pwnguin> so "not as part of this team" you mean it's not an obligation or official
[23:34] <Vantrax> then again, i am one of 5, the others can disagree and overrule me
[23:34] <Vantrax> yes
[23:34] <pwnguin> ok
[23:35] <Vantrax> imo as long as it is done outside of the project, it can be acknowladged and advertised as an external service.
[23:35] <doctormo> Vantrax: Canonical would not be able to use our materials
[23:35] <pwnguin> what materials?
[23:35] <pwnguin> oh right
[23:35] <doctormo> pwnguin: Any derivitive or new works
[23:36] <pwnguin> i guess their position is they'll renegotiate if they want to go commercial
[23:36] <pwnguin> since they have some stake in the original
[23:36] <Vantrax> that is correct, but I do not belive they will want to.
[23:36] <Vantrax> If anything our training will create interest in the official training
[23:36] <doctormo> I hope so
[23:36] <Vantrax> that was one of the suggested long term goals for this project
[23:37] <doctormo> Vantrax: you should bring that up at the meeting, I would vote against it unless Canonical are going to pay us.
[23:37] <pwnguin> ?
[23:38] <Vantrax> how does that work doctormo, we dont supply content for them, we have no official relationship
[23:38] <Vantrax> however, we also do not provide certification
[23:38] <Vantrax> they do, so if someone does the training and wants certification they do the canonical training
[23:38] <doctormo> Vantrax: We do if one of our goals is to help them in their commercial endevours, I don't mind linking in, but as an offical goal?
[23:41] <doctormo> Anyway, I gotta go and teach my physical class, funny enough :-D
[23:42] <doctormo> I think what we do here is valuable and I would rather see us serving the Ubuntu community before we start serving Canonical's business interests. they may not always be the same thing.
[23:42] <Vantrax|Work> okies...
[23:42] <Vantrax|Work> that was fun...
[23:42] <Vantrax|Work> that will definately need to be discused at the meeting
[23:43] <pwnguin> you're back!
[23:44] <Vantrax|Work> yer
[23:44] <Vantrax|Work> so, valid point, but needs to be expressed better:P
[23:45] <pwnguin> i think people have an expectation that simply isn't true
[23:45] <pwnguin> people expect Canonical to be a commercial enterprise and Ubuntu to be some non-profit wing
[23:46] <pwnguin> the Ubuntu Foundation really didn't help that
[23:47] <Vantrax|Work> there will always be a synergy between the two and both are importaint
[23:47] <pwnguin> there aren't two
[23:47] <pwnguin> there's one
[23:47] <pwnguin> the Ubuntu Foundation is a life insurance policy contract sitting in safety deposit box
[23:48] <Vantrax|Work> i was referring to canonical and ubuntu
[23:48] <Vantrax|Work> the foundation is kinda set aside there
[23:50] <pwnguin> in some sense, canonical owns ubuntu. they own the trademark, they own the domain, they dominate the TB and CC. people expect that these things are more seperate than they are
[23:51] <Vantrax|Work> that is true, and has caused problems recently
[23:51] <bodhizazen> I do not expect them to be separate :)
[23:51] <pwnguin> another example comes to mind: artwork
[23:52] <bodhizazen> doctormo: poke :)
[23:52] <bodhizazen> is doctormo still here ?
[23:52] <pwnguin> he went to teach a class
[23:52] <bodhizazen> that is what I thought
[23:52] <bodhizazen> pwnguin: I do not know if we formally met
[23:52] <bodhizazen> ;)
[23:53] <bodhizazen> and I always assume people know who I am
[23:53] <pwnguin> bodhizazen: you gave me an account on the test server
[23:53] <Vantrax|Work> nots not like your an unknown in the community
[23:53] <bodhizazen> I believe I have seen your nick, but I do not recall the detalis
[23:53] <bodhizazen> would you mind telling me of your background or do you have a wiki page ?
[23:54] <pwnguin> wiki.ubuntu.com/JustinDugger
[23:54] <pwnguin> probably old
[23:55] <pwnguin> right now i work for a college in town
[23:55] <bodhizazen> thank you
[23:55] <bodhizazen> I will apologize to doctormo when I see him next
[23:55] <bodhizazen> but I will apologize to you now
[23:56] <bodhizazen> I would like to be clear about my motives
[23:56] <bodhizazen> I do view this as "my project" as I have been working twords it for some time now
[23:56] <bodhizazen> so I feel possessive at times
[23:57] <bodhizazen> with that said, this is a young project and I do not want to see it fail
[23:57] <pwnguin> heh
[23:57] <pwnguin> "you'd be surprised how far you can go as long as you don't care who gets credit for it"
[23:58] <bodhizazen> It is not my nature to do so
[23:58] <bodhizazen> as many who know me will tell you
[23:59] <bodhizazen> This project is going through growing pains and has grown very very fast