| === Edwin_ is now known as EdwinGrubbs | ||
| henninge | Hi jtv! | 14:59 |
|---|---|---|
| jtv | hi henninge! | 15:00 |
| danilos | hi jtv! | 15:00 |
| danilos | hi henninge! | 15:00 |
| abentley | Hi danilos, jtv, henninge! | 15:00 |
| * mars wonders if he has the right meeting - looks like translations | 15:01 | |
| jtv | hi abentley! | 15:01 |
| danilos | hi abentley! | 15:01 |
| rockstar | Hey, code's here too! | 15:01 |
| jtv | mars: we arrive by team now, like the Olympics | 15:01 |
| henninge | Hi rockstar! | 15:01 |
| danilos | ok, ok, we can stop this :) | 15:01 |
| abentley | Hi rockstar! | 15:01 |
| abentley | Hi mars! | 15:01 |
| mars | jtv, heh, so who gets to light the MootBot flame? | 15:01 |
| danilos | heh | 15:01 |
| mars | hi abentley! | 15:01 |
| * jtv plots out n² for some ballpark values of n | 15:02 | |
| bac | hi barry? | 15:02 |
| rockstar | It's really early for me. This is my least favorite meeting of the week. | 15:02 |
| sinzui1 | barry lost his connection 3 minutes | 15:02 |
| sinzui1 | ago | 15:02 |
| === sinzui1 is now known as sinzui | ||
| mars | rockstar, could be worse - look at thumper's TL calls :) | 15:02 |
| rockstar | mars, yes, those would be even worse. | 15:02 |
| mars | barry! | 15:09 |
| barry | irc sucks for me today | 15:09 |
| barry | sorry | 15:09 |
| sinzui | barry: your back for our meeting? | 15:09 |
| barry | #startmeeting | 15:09 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 09:09. The chair is barry. | 15:09 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 15:09 |
| barry | hi everyone. who's here today? | 15:10 |
| EdwinGrubbs | me | 15:10 |
| jtv | me | 15:10 |
| BjornT | me | 15:10 |
| mars | me | 15:10 |
| bac | me | 15:10 |
| henninge | me | 15:10 |
| abentley | me | 15:10 |
| adeuring | me | 15:10 |
| gary_poster_ | me did not send the email *and* is not around for to give reviews today, again. | 15:10 |
| jtv | and danilos, too | 15:10 |
| gmb | me | 15:10 |
| danilos | me | 15:10 |
| * mars pokes flacoste | 15:11 | |
| flacoste | me | 15:11 |
| barry | gary_poster_: ack | 15:11 |
| salgado | me | 15:11 |
| barry | allenap: ping | 15:12 |
| barry | cprov: ping | 15:12 |
| allenap | me | 15:12 |
| cprov | me | 15:12 |
| sinzui | me | 15:12 |
| barry | gmb: ping | 15:12 |
| barry | oops, gmb sorry | 15:12 |
| gmb | still me... | 15:12 |
| barry | noodles775: ping | 15:12 |
| barry | rockstar: ping | 15:13 |
| noodles775 | me :) | 15:13 |
| rockstar | me | 15:13 |
| barry | [TOPIC] agenda | 15:13 |
| MootBot | New Topic: agenda | 15:13 |
| barry | very light day today i thik | 15:13 |
| barry | * Roll call | 15:13 |
| barry | * Action items | 15:13 |
| barry | * Mentoring update | 15:13 |
| barry | * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda) | 15:13 |
| barry | [TOPIC] mentoring update | 15:13 |
| MootBot | New Topic: mentoring update | 15:14 |
| barry | anything to report ? | 15:14 |
| henninge | I hear I graduated? | 15:14 |
| adeuring | yes, that's at least my proposal | 15:14 |
| henninge | Sorry for missing last week's meeting ... | 15:14 |
| barry | henninge: you did. i will send out the announcement today. congratulations! | 15:14 |
| cprov | barry: noodles775 is almost there. | 15:14 |
| barry | cprov: fantastic | 15:14 |
| henninge | barry, adeuring. Thank you! | 15:15 |
| jtv | barry missed the opportunity for a cruel joke there | 15:15 |
| barry | jtv: :) | 15:15 |
| barry | henninge: you can switch from euro/friday if you want | 15:15 |
| henninge | anybody any suggestion? | 15:15 |
| barry | henninge: we have good euro coverage, so it's up to you. if anyone else wants to switch, that's fine too | 15:15 |
| barry | i just want at least one person for each euro day | 15:16 |
| henninge | I think I had look a Tuesdays | 15:16 |
| barry | and remember al-maisan is on loan to ubuntu | 15:16 |
| barry | henninge: cool, just ping me when you decide | 15:16 |
| henninge | ok | 15:17 |
| barry | who is currently /not/ a reviewer (other than team leads)? i know about deryck and leonardr | 15:17 |
| jtv | barry: I'm a reviewer but without OCR slot | 15:18 |
| jtv | (was holding this for the peanut gallery) | 15:18 |
| barry | jtv: let's get you a slot! | 15:18 |
| henninge | barry: noodles775 and me were the only ones when we started. | 15:18 |
| barry | jtv: what would work for you? | 15:18 |
| henninge | barry: so since onyl deryck has joined lately, I guess that is all. | 15:19 |
| jtv | barry: working day when I'm here starts 06:00 UTC. | 15:19 |
| barry | henninge: right. and deryck has started doing js reviews | 15:19 |
| jtv | any glaring holes in the schedule for the hours after that? | 15:19 |
| barry | jtv: so america probably doesn't work for ya :) | 15:20 |
| jtv | barry: nyet, comrade | 15:20 |
| barry | jtv: we have two wholes in asia on tuesday and wednesday | 15:20 |
| jtv | barry: oh, you're beginning to spell like an Asian | 15:20 |
| barry | jtv: but other than that we have pretty good coverage. you're always welcome to double up on a euro slot | 15:20 |
| danilos | jtv, henninge: it would be nice not to have you guys taken up on the same day to OCR | 15:21 |
| barry | jtv: sorry, i meant too hoales | 15:21 |
| henninge | danilos: I was just thinking that | 15:21 |
| jtv | barry: ohh, hoales | 15:21 |
| intellectronica | me (apologies for joining late) | 15:21 |
| jtv | so we're looking at a swap, not a hole | 15:21 |
| jtv | s/at/for/ | 15:21 |
| gmb | jtv: How about Tuesday? | 15:22 |
| * gmb just wants an easier life ... | 15:22 | |
| barry | gmb: or henninge on tuesday and jtv on friday? | 15:22 |
| jtv | gmb: yes, that would work | 15:22 |
| gmb | Either way works for me. | 15:22 |
| henninge | me on tuesday, jtv on wednesday. | 15:22 |
| jtv | barry: disadvantage of friday is: one needs-reply can bump your branch across my weekend. | 15:23 |
| henninge | friday gets pretty crowded, too. | 15:23 |
| henninge | reviewer-wise | 15:23 |
| jtv | which is just great for week 3's | 15:23 |
| henninge | yeah | 15:23 |
| barry | jtv, henninge why don't you guys work it out. i'm fine with whatever you decide, just let me know | 15:24 |
| barry | i do think friday is well covered either way | 15:24 |
| jtv | barry: aye-aye | 15:24 |
| barry | thanks! | 15:24 |
| henninge | barry: me on tuesday, jtv on wednesday. My favorite. | 15:24 |
| barry | henninge: works for me. jtv? | 15:24 |
| jtv | henninge: shall we do this out-of-channel? | 15:24 |
| jtv | oh | 15:24 |
| jtv | yeah, sure | 15:24 |
| barry | [AGREED] henninge to move to euro/tue, jtv to euro/wed | 15:25 |
| MootBot | AGREED received: henninge to move to euro/tue, jtv to euro/wed | 15:25 |
| * jtv conspicuously fails to race to the needs-review queue Right Now | 15:25 | |
| barry | [TOPIC] peanut gallery | 15:25 |
| MootBot | New Topic: peanut gallery | 15:25 |
| barry | anybody have any topics not on the agenda? | 15:25 |
| flacoste | mars: | 15:26 |
| flacoste | ? | 15:26 |
| noodles775 | Maybe the import error lint (F040...) | 15:26 |
| barry | noodles775: can you elaborate? | 15:26 |
| mars | barry, I have one | 15:26 |
| noodles775 | There seems to be disagreement whether the lint warning about import errors should be disabled or left... | 15:26 |
| barry | mars: you're next | 15:26 |
| noodles775 | Currently many files complain about this (i think after the code-reorgs...) | 15:27 |
| flacoste | noodles775: i think it's more buildout related actually | 15:27 |
| flacoste | i don't kjnow | 15:27 |
| abentley | noodles775 is describing lint failure messages when anything imports from canonical.launchpad | 15:27 |
| flacoste | but i also noticed that pylint is reporting crack error | 15:27 |
| barry | flacoste: maybe pylint doesn't have the correct sys.path? | 15:27 |
| flacoste | barry: it probably doesn't | 15:27 |
| gary_poster_ | I'll look... | 15:28 |
| barry | flacoste: let's fix pylint if possible | 15:28 |
| barry | gary_poster_: thanks! | 15:28 |
| sinzui | We have other pylint issues | 15:28 |
| barry | [ACTION] gary_poster_ to look at bogus pylint import failures | 15:28 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: gary_poster_ to look at bogus pylint import failures | 15:28 |
| danilos | we've seen them before buildout as well | 15:28 |
| sinzui | pylnt is different on jaunty and hardy | 15:28 |
| sinzui | They support different error messages | 15:28 |
| flacoste | yeah the utilities lint script should probably be moved to be generated by buildout | 15:28 |
| flacoste | so that it has the correct sys.path | 15:28 |
| bac | gary_poster_: if you fix the problem please look to remove directives in code which disable that warning | 15:28 |
| barry | flacoste: +1 | 15:28 |
| flacoste | gary_poster is on leave for the next week | 15:29 |
| flacoste | so that will wait for 2 weeks at least | 15:29 |
| gary_poster_ | bac, barry, flacoste, ok. I'm out for a week and a day starting tomorrow, so I was intending to just diagnose | 15:29 |
| barry | gary_poster_: diagnose is fine. please submit a bug report | 15:29 |
| gary_poster_ | barry: ack, cool | 15:29 |
| barry | gary_poster_: thanks | 15:30 |
| === gary_poster_ is now known as gary_poster | ||
| barry | sinzui: as for the other pylint problems. new bug report, or tack onto the one gary_poster 's going to file? | 15:30 |
| gary_poster | the interface stuff sinzui was mentioning in the review channel seemed unrelated, IIUC | 15:31 |
| sinzui | If we control the version of pylint, the we do not need to second guess what warning and suppressions are supported | 15:31 |
| noodles775 | gary_poster: just fyi, an example here: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~michael.nelson/launchpad/bug-376320-add-ppa-name-to-builder-status/+merge/7236 | 15:31 |
| gary_poster | noodles775: gotcha. looks very suspiciously buildout related, yes | 15:31 |
| sinzui | gary_poster: the interface/adapter stuff is not new, but in jaunty the frequency of false positives has increased | 15:32 |
| barry | cool, thanks guys. let's move on to mars's issue | 15:32 |
| gary_poster | gotcha. sounds like a legitimate problem, worthy of a bug report, maybe | 15:32 |
| sinzui | gary_poster: I don't think we can teach pylint about differed_import | 15:32 |
| mars | thanks barry | 15:33 |
| mars | ok, something for the JavaScript writers in the room | 15:33 |
| gary_poster | deferred, maybe not | 15:33 |
| mars | about two weeks ago QA started an experiment to bring manual testing into the JavaScript review pipeline | 15:33 |
| mars | https://wiki.canonical.com/Launchpad/Experiments/JavascriptTesting | 15:33 |
| * sinzui has pondered replacing his navel-lint script with apure python script that only enforces his rules. | 15:33 | |
| mars | the idea is to have QA look at the work in different browsers during the code review step | 15:34 |
| mars | since it should be easier to catch and fix UI and browser issues while the branch is in development, rather than after-the-fact, on staging | 15:35 |
| mars | By the way, this is unrelated to the [js] landing tag | 15:35 |
| barry | mars: since after this cycle, it's all ui from here on out, should we enforce this experiment for the next cycle at least, if not all of the rest of 3.0? | 15:36 |
| mars | barry, I was going to ask for volunteers, rather than a team-wide experiment | 15:36 |
| mars | but it could work both ways | 15:36 |
| mars | the process is pretty simple | 15:36 |
| barry | what do others think? | 15:37 |
| intellectronica | i think it would be better to have everyone participate | 15:37 |
| rockstar | barry, I think it should be enforced now. | 15:37 |
| intellectronica | we don't really have time for partial experimentation. if we find that there are problems, we'll fix them | 15:37 |
| barry | i don't want to start this cycle, but i'd be willing to enforce it for 2.2.7 | 15:37 |
| gmb | One thing to bear in mind here | 15:38 |
| gmb | Is sabdfl's edict at UDS: | 15:38 |
| gmb | UI reviews shouldn't be blockers to landing things. | 15:38 |
| gmb | Does this come under that? | 15:38 |
| intellectronica | that's a different thing | 15:38 |
| intellectronica | and no, it doesn't come under that | 15:38 |
| flacoste | "UI reviews shouldn't be blockers to landing things." | 15:39 |
| barry | gmb: right, separate. and remember we have [ui=rs] (with the understanding that you'll back fill that review later) | 15:39 |
| flacoste | !?! | 15:39 |
| flacoste | that's the first i heard of it | 15:39 |
| flacoste | and not what we are applying now | 15:39 |
| mars | gmb, that's a design review, rather than "I just denied IE users access to the site" | 15:39 |
| rockstar | gmb, yes, this is the first I've heard of it too. | 15:39 |
| intellectronica | imperfect UI can be fixed (and anyway it's often a matter of taste). broken code is really bad and the shortest time to fixing is too long | 15:39 |
| flacoste | beuno's review are blocking | 15:39 |
| gmb | flacoste, rockstar: He said it in a Launchpad gripe session for, IIRC, the community team (could be wrong about which track it was in; it was all a blur). | 15:39 |
| intellectronica | yeah, i also never heard about ui reviews not blocking, b.t.w | 15:39 |
| jtv | flacoste: that's exactly the part that he said we shouldn't be blocking on. | 15:39 |
| gmb | What jtv said | 15:40 |
| flacoste | that's new | 15:40 |
| sinzui | The principle problem with UI reviews blocking is that developers are not submitting designs to beuno *before* they write code | 15:40 |
| flacoste | and should be discussed | 15:40 |
| flacoste | i don't agree | 15:40 |
| rockstar | gmb, I think we need clarification on what he meant, because as it is now, beuno's reviews block. | 15:40 |
| flacoste | we are very bad at fixing thigns later | 15:40 |
| intellectronica | are UI reviews a bottleneck at the moment? i didn't have that impression | 15:40 |
| gmb | So why does ui=rs exist then? | 15:40 |
| flacoste | for trivial stuff | 15:40 |
| gmb | intellectronica: A bit. It depends how much of a fight beuno and kiko get into. | 15:40 |
| flacoste | it's not uised anyway | 15:40 |
| sinzui | gmb: I can get rs if I designed the UI with beuno *first* | 15:41 |
| barry | flacoste: no. ui=rs exists explicitly not to block on beuno's review | 15:41 |
| intellectronica | gmb: for trivial landings or when you absolutely can't get a ui review and are very confident | 15:41 |
| * barry remembers discussion that very fact with the man himself :) | 15:41 | |
| rockstar | flacoste, the fact that we are bad at fixing things later is another issue. | 15:41 |
| intellectronica | gmb: surely if there's a disagreement it's even more important to resolve it before landing | 15:41 |
| sinzui | I am doing UI review *before* code, and I don't start until Martin and seen my proposal | 15:41 |
| rockstar | sinzui, I am doing the same. | 15:41 |
| gmb | intellectronica: Right, but I've had branches wait up to three weeks because of UI disagreements + week 4. | 15:41 |
| gmb | I'm not saying that we should just land things without talking to Martin. | 15:42 |
| jtv | I believe full UI reviews were ultimately to be for "real" design decisions, not for "does it look okay like this." | 15:42 |
| rockstar | sinzui, because often, more code changes happen on UI review than code review. | 15:42 |
| gmb | That's just crackpottery. | 15:42 |
| sinzui | rockstar: :) | 15:42 |
| intellectronica | gmb: sounds like you have to work a bit on your social engineering skills ;) | 15:42 |
| mars | jtv, good point | 15:42 |
| jtv | just repeating... | 15:42 |
| barry | rockstar: yes! it's the 80/20 rule | 15:42 |
| flacoste | gmb: we should do a root-cause-analysis on your experience | 15:42 |
| rockstar | sinzui, also, I dread UI reviews, where I don't dread code reviews, so I do the band-aid thing. | 15:42 |
| barry | or its inverse. or something. | 15:43 |
| flacoste | anwyay, that's kind of besides the current discussion i think | 15:43 |
| flacoste | if we want to discuss UI reviews, we should bring that separately as another topic | 15:43 |
| gmb | flacoste: Well, I've got another big UI branch coming up in the next couple of days, so let's analyse that one rather than rehash my previous experience. | 15:43 |
| barry | flacoste: good point. | 15:43 |
| barry | let's take up ui review issues on the ml please | 15:43 |
| barry | as for js, let's vote on requiring the experiment for all devs in 2.2.7 | 15:44 |
| rockstar | So, with the current QA plan, at least they can defer it. I think we should request a review from them (so they get an email) but not block on it. | 15:44 |
| mars | barry, so! full-team experiment for manual UI testing next cycle? | 15:44 |
| barry | [VOTE] require full-team experiment for manual ui testing in 2.2.7 | 15:44 |
| MootBot | Please vote on: require full-team experiment for manual ui testing in 2.2.7. | 15:44 |
| MootBot | Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot | 15:44 |
| MootBot | E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #launchpad-meeting | 15:44 |
| barry | +1 | 15:44 |
| MootBot | +1 received from barry. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 | 15:44 |
| mars | rockstar, we'll see if they get swamped - it's their call | 15:44 |
| mars | +1 | 15:44 |
| MootBot | +1 received from mars. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 | 15:44 |
| gmb | +0 | 15:45 |
| adeuring | +0 | 15:45 |
| MootBot | Abstention received from gmb. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2 | 15:45 |
| MootBot | Abstention received from adeuring. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2 | 15:45 |
| rockstar | +0 | 15:45 |
| MootBot | Abstention received from rockstar. 2 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2 | 15:45 |
| bac | +0 | 15:45 |
| MootBot | Abstention received from bac. 2 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 2 | 15:45 |
| jtv | +0 | 15:45 |
| MootBot | Abstention received from jtv. 2 for, 0 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 2 | 15:45 |
| gary_poster | +0 | 15:45 |
| MootBot | Abstention received from gary_poster. 2 for, 0 against. 6 have abstained. Count is now 2 | 15:45 |
| noodles775 | +0 | 15:45 |
| MootBot | Abstention received from noodles775. 2 for, 0 against. 7 have abstained. Count is now 2 | 15:45 |
| henninge | +1 | 15:46 |
| MootBot | +1 received from henninge. 3 for, 0 against. 7 have abstained. Count is now 3 | 15:46 |
| jtv | maybe we haven't talked this through enough; I for one don't have a clear picture of how it would fit into the process. | 15:46 |
| intellectronica | +1 | 15:46 |
| MootBot | +1 received from intellectronica. 4 for, 0 against. 7 have abstained. Count is now 4 | 15:46 |
| flacoste | +0 | 15:46 |
| MootBot | Abstention received from flacoste. 4 for, 0 against. 8 have abstained. Count is now 4 | 15:46 |
| flacoste | actually, that should be a +1 | 15:46 |
| sinzui | What really is manual UI testing? What how do I know it is successful | 15:46 |
| flacoste | +1 | 15:46 |
| * sinzui cannot vote, and wants to | 15:46 | |
| mars | sinzui, I was about to get to that, then a car hit my topic :) | 15:47 |
| barry | sinzui: it's outlined on the wiki page | 15:47 |
| * gmb apologises for DUI. | 15:47 | |
| intellectronica | sinzui: ideally, we should prepare test plans with clear predicates, but sometimes it will be just monkeying about with the interface | 15:47 |
| mars | the process is simple: you write up a manual test plan in the cover letter | 15:47 |
| abentley | -0 | 15:47 |
| abentley | +0 | 15:47 |
| MootBot | Abstention received from abentley. 4 for, 0 against. 9 have abstained. Count is now 4 | 15:47 |
| mars | QA follows it for the A and C browsers | 15:47 |
| jtv | mars: who is responsible for making sure the branch goes all the way through the process? Still the reviewee as usual? | 15:48 |
| mars | jtv, yes | 15:48 |
| flacoste | actually, i'm -1 on a full team experiment at this point | 15:48 |
| flacoste | not that it matters :-) | 15:48 |
| sinzui | I don't think this test can be performed by the team if they do not posses all the A-grade browsers | 15:48 |
| intellectronica | flacoste: why? and it does matter | 15:48 |
| mars | jtv, QA handles wrangling the people with the browsers for testing | 15:49 |
| flacoste | well, i don't have a veto :-) | 15:49 |
| mars | sinzui, we do | 15:49 |
| jtv | flacoste: I think that brings you to a total of 3 votes :-) | 15:49 |
| barry | sinzui: devs don't but qa does | 15:49 |
| flacoste | i think the experiment is too vague at this point to make the whole team follow it | 15:49 |
| intellectronica | sinzui: iiuc diogo and ursula have access to all platforms, and it's up to them to delegate the work if and when they feel they can't handle the load | 15:49 |
| mars | sinzui, we do have the browsers. QA has access to them, and to the pool of people who have registered as having the alternative environemnets | 15:49 |
| flacoste | and given that 2.2.7 is all-UI | 15:49 |
| flacoste | it could degenerate | 15:49 |
| * noodles775 is unsure *how* i can go about fixing my branch if it fails for IE6 on XP? XP licenses as per the email? | 15:49 | |
| intellectronica | flacoste: it's clear in my mind. could it be that it's not adequately expressed? | 15:50 |
| flacoste | noodles775: you disable the feature for IE :-) | 15:50 |
| flacoste | intellectronica: probably | 15:50 |
| mars | noodles775, disable the feature, yes | 15:50 |
| flacoste | and we haven't experimented it at all yet | 15:50 |
| flacoste | (i think) | 15:50 |
| sinzui | our China OEMs are using IE6 on XP. They are not permitted to change browser or OS | 15:50 |
| intellectronica | flacoste: that's why experimenting during the remainder of 2.2.6 can help doing the real thing for 2.2.7 | 15:50 |
| sinzui | They do not like Launchpad | 15:50 |
| noodles775 | flacoste, mars: ok, FF3 on OSX? | 15:51 |
| jtv | sinzui: my shoes are broken, I don't like pavements :) | 15:51 |
| mars | sinzui, that's what we are addressing with this | 15:51 |
| barry | intellectronica, mars so perhaps volunteers for 2.2.6 to flesh out the process so everyone understands it? | 15:51 |
| flacoste | intellectronica: so let's do a two-weeks experiment using volunteers | 15:51 |
| mars | noodles775, not a concern, just the browser, not the environment | 15:51 |
| barry | btw, if the experiment is a failure we don't need to keep running it for the whole cycle! | 15:51 |
| noodles775 | ok | 15:51 |
| sinzui | jtv: I bought new All-stars and Doc Martins in London because I had holes in my shoes | 15:51 |
| mars | noodles775, Opera on Linux is fine, no need for Opera on Win/OSX | 15:51 |
| jtv | flacoste: sounds good to me—reviewers could encourage reviewees to participate | 15:51 |
| jtv | flacoste: ...and if people don't want to, note a probable point for improvement | 15:52 |
| flacoste | that's the idea, volunteering reviewers | 15:52 |
| flacoste | are to make sure that the process is followed | 15:52 |
| sinzui | When using safari (Webkit) can we substitute Konqueror or Epiphany-webkit? | 15:53 |
| barry | we've gone over, and i apologize for that. i will really try to fix my irc by next week | 15:53 |
| flacoste | if all the AJAX-team reviewers volunteer | 15:53 |
| mars | flacoste, I'll rely on barry's experiement experience here, but I do agree with your points, there is risk because it hasn't been tried yet | 15:53 |
| intellectronica | i rather do it for the remainder of 2.2.6 rather than two weeks, for simplicity, but either way is fine. i agree that a limited experiment is a good idea | 15:53 |
| flacoste | we kind of have a de-facto whole team experiment | 15:53 |
| * Ursinha reads | 15:53 | |
| mars | sinzui, that I'm not sure about | 15:53 |
| * sinzui want to add small devices to to list | 15:53 | |
| intellectronica | i'll most definitely volunteer, as i'm sure everyone from the bugs team will ;) | 15:53 |
| mars | sinzui, for Konqueror, no, you absolutely can not | 15:53 |
| sinzui | mars: they run the webkit version | 15:53 |
| barry | let's defer the whole-team decision until we see how the volunteer experiment works for the rest of 2.2.6 | 15:54 |
| sinzui | Epiphany is on tip | 15:54 |
| mars | sinzui, heh, nice try, but no, the Webkit Konqueror is *not* Safari | 15:54 |
| flacoste | volunteers should sign up on the JavaScript experiment page | 15:54 |
| mars | I know, I tried it | 15:54 |
| sinzui | mars: 4.2 is I thought | 15:54 |
| barry | flacoste: +1 thanks | 15:54 |
| sinzui | QT | 15:54 |
| flacoste | and | 15:54 |
| jtv | barry: may haev to start a new vote before the bot gets confused | 15:54 |
| flacoste | we should put the link to the experiment in the launchpad-reviews channel | 15:54 |
| flacoste | for OCR | 15:54 |
| mars | sinzui, the engine, sure. But it still doesn't work the same as Safari. | 15:54 |
| barry | #endvote | 15:55 |
| flacoste | so that dev can look if they need to follow-it | 15:55 |
| * barry knows a sure fire way to end the vote... | 15:55 | |
| barry | #endmeeting | 15:55 |
| MootBot | Vote is in progress. Finishing now. | 15:55 |
| MootBot | Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 9 abstained. Total: 4 | 15:55 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 09:55. | 15:55 |
| barry | thanks everybody! | 15:55 |
| intellectronica | thanks barry | 15:55 |
| jtv | thanks barry! | 15:55 |
| EdwinGrubbs | sinzui, mars: I had some good results using Arora to test webkit after I disabled its network caching. | 15:55 |
| sinzui | flacoste: can we engineer a JS oops AJAX lib that run in staging/edge clients and send us reports when our users know we broke something | 15:55 |
| mars | sinzui, yes, we can try. It's on my Todo list | 15:56 |
| mars | sinzui, well, my Todo wishlist :) | 15:56 |
| flacoste | sinzui: we can anything, priorities, priorities, priorities | 15:57 |
| sinzui | flacoste: I think that by putting enough eyes on the problem (per the Open Source mantra) there will not be a problem | 15:59 |
| sinzui | We use automated testing because we do not have enough eyes | 15:59 |
| sinzui | JS + automated testing is painful | 15:59 |
| sinzui | so using oopses might be the best way to verify scripts | 16:00 |
| abentley | sinzui: JS + manual testing is also painful | 16:00 |
| sinzui | abentley: test for the sake of testing is painful. but users of staging and edge do not mind testing for us because we provide them newer services | 16:01 |
| === salgado is now known as salgado-lunch | ||
| === salgado-lunch is now known as salgado | ||
| === Edwin is now known as Guest51667 | ||
| === salgado is now known as salgado-afk | ||
| thumper | hi barry | 23:30 |
| barry | #startmeeting | 23:30 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 17:30. The chair is barry. | 23:30 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 23:30 |
| barry | hi thumper | 23:30 |
| barry | jml, mwhudson hi | 23:30 |
| mwhudson | hello | 23:30 |
| jml | hi | 23:31 |
| barry | [TOPIC] agenda | 23:31 |
| MootBot | New Topic: agenda | 23:31 |
| barry | # Roll call | 23:31 |
| barry | # Action items | 23:31 |
| barry | # Mentoring update | 23:31 |
| barry | # Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda) | 23:31 |
| barry | [TOPIC] mentoring update | 23:31 |
| MootBot | New Topic: mentoring update | 23:31 |
| barry | just wanted to let you know that henninge has graduated | 23:32 |
| thumper | cool | 23:32 |
| barry | [TOPIC] peanut gallery | 23:32 |
| MootBot | New Topic: peanut gallery | 23:32 |
| thumper | I've got a few things | 23:32 |
| barry | thumper: go ahead | 23:33 |
| thumper | the launchpad code team have moved all interface enums to lp.code.enums module | 23:33 |
| thumper | you may want to consider this too | 23:33 |
| thumper | also looking into trying out lp.code.errors for our exceptions | 23:33 |
| thumper | moving the enums reduces circular dependency issues | 23:33 |
| thumper | as they only rely on lazr.enum | 23:33 |
| barry | thumper: very nice | 23:33 |
| * jml has one item. | 23:33 | |
| thumper | it was mentioned in the team lead call this morning | 23:33 |
| thumper | and foundations and registry may do the same | 23:34 |
| thumper | although I don't think foundations has any... | 23:34 |
| barry | thumper: +1 | 23:34 |
| barry | registry has a lot | 23:34 |
| barry | thumper: did you talk at all about making .enums a package? | 23:34 |
| thumper | I'm done | 23:34 |
| thumper | barry: not exactly | 23:35 |
| barry | i'm a little concerned about having really huge modules | 23:35 |
| thumper | why make it a package than a module? | 23:35 |
| thumper | would the enums/__init__.py pull them in? | 23:35 |
| barry | thumper: no, but maybe that would just re-introduce the circs | 23:36 |
| barry | in any event, it's not a big deal for now at least | 23:36 |
| * barry was just curious | 23:36 | |
| * thumper nods | 23:36 | |
| thumper | lets see how it goes | 23:36 |
| barry | thumper: +1. thanks. did you have another issue? | 23:36 |
| thumper | there are advantages to just having one module | 23:36 |
| thumper | to get enums | 23:36 |
| thumper | from | 23:36 |
| thumper | like not having to think :) | 23:36 |
| barry | :) | 23:36 |
| jml | barry: does beuno attend a reviewers meeting? | 23:36 |
| * thumper passes floor to jml | 23:36 | |
| barry | jml: he does not. probably should though | 23:37 |
| thumper | perhaps I should pass the talking-stick to jml | 23:37 |
| jml | barry: even if it's just every second week, it'd probably be useful. | 23:37 |
| barry | jml: +1 i'll ask him to (i think he did at one point) | 23:37 |
| barry | jml: you're up | 23:38 |
| * barry has one when you're done | 23:38 | |
| jml | barry: that was my topic :) | 23:38 |
| barry | jml: cool! | 23:38 |
| barry | at the ameu meeting, mars brought this up: https://wiki.canonical.com/Launchpad/Experiments/JavascriptTesting | 23:38 |
| * thumper looks | 23:39 | |
| barry | the idea is to put qa in the critical path for branch approval. this is manual js testing by qa | 23:39 |
| thumper | hmm.. | 23:39 |
| * mwhudson mutters something about a "fix verified" bug status | 23:39 | |
| barry | mars and company are asking for volunteers for 2.2.6 and we're considering making it mandatory team-wide (as an experiment) for 2.2.7 | 23:39 |
| thumper | seems like a branch blocker | 23:39 |
| barry | that's not decided yet though | 23:40 |
| thumper | "fix confirmed" ? | 23:40 |
| barry | thumper: it could be yes | 23:40 |
| thumper | how would the qa be done? | 23:40 |
| jml | barry: I'll try to have a look at the page later on today | 23:40 |
| thumper | if it wasn't landed on trunk? | 23:40 |
| mwhudson | ec2! | 23:41 |
| barry | thumper: i think qa would run the branch and try it with the A and C browsers | 23:41 |
| jml | barry: my first reaction is "I thought we were trying to improve UI velocity" | 23:41 |
| barry | jml: btw, this is separate from ui=* and the js tags on pqm commits | 23:41 |
| barry | it's also separate from ui reviews | 23:41 |
| thumper | is it going to be a requested review from the qa team that has to be approved? | 23:42 |
| barry | thumper: i believe that's the idea | 23:42 |
| thumper | hmm... | 23:42 |
| jml | barry: this seems to confirm my impression that this will slow down branches :) | 23:42 |
| barry | ;) | 23:42 |
| thumper | I'm with jml on the velocity issue | 23:42 |
| barry | anyway, i just wanted to make you aware of the discussion at ameu :) | 23:43 |
| thumper | I was also going to raise the UI review not being blocking issue | 23:43 |
| jml | barry: thanks. | 23:43 |
| barry | that's all i have | 23:43 |
| jml | barry: I'd like to read this page & send my thoughts on later. | 23:43 |
| barry | jml: please do! | 23:43 |
| mwhudson | maybe we could have something like, if it works, the qa person should submit the branch | 23:43 |
| mwhudson | 1 less handoff | 23:43 |
| barry | that's an interesting idea too | 23:44 |
| mwhudson | or say, it's something the code reviewer should do | 23:44 |
| barry | anything else guys? | 23:45 |
| mwhudson | if we can build tools to make it easy | 23:45 |
| * thumper wants branch merge queues in LP | 23:45 | |
| jml | barry: a low priority thing | 23:45 |
| mwhudson | thumper: yes | 23:45 |
| mwhudson | thumper: also, a pony | 23:45 |
| jml | barry: have you ever looked at the bzr developer docs? | 23:46 |
| barry | jml: it's been a while | 23:46 |
| jml | barry: http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/latest/developers/index.html | 23:46 |
| jml | barry: maybe this is something we can work towards before, during & after open sourcing | 23:46 |
| barry | yes! i'd also like to take a shot at sphinxing our docstrings | 23:47 |
| jml | doctests, itym | 23:47 |
| barry | both actually, as we markup more of our docstrings | 23:47 |
| mwhudson | there's still nightly pydoctor output | 23:47 |
| jml | right. was about to mention :) | 23:48 |
| mwhudson | at https://devpad.canonical.com/~mwh/canonicalapi/ | 23:48 |
| thumper | :( | 23:49 |
| thumper | we don't have much documentation for lp.code | 23:49 |
| jml | barry: anyway, what I mean is -- *I* get lost trying to find our reviewer, developer, testing docs & guidelines | 23:49 |
| jml | barry: it's an oral tradition for me | 23:49 |
| mwhudson | (i get emailed a list of which docstrings aren't valid reST every night...) | 23:49 |
| jml | (which is why these meetings are so valuable) | 23:49 |
| barry | jml: i hear ya | 23:49 |
| barry | mwhudson: any chance you can send those to launchpad@? would make a nice email nag to reduce techdebt | 23:50 |
| jml | better yet, any chance you can get 'make lint' to tell us about them. | 23:50 |
| barry | or that | 23:50 |
| mwhudson | i would really really really like it if it was someone's job to make the developer experience better | 23:50 |
| thumper | foundations? | 23:51 |
| mwhudson | barry/jml: yes, am wary of spamming launchpad@ more | 23:51 |
| jml | me too. | 23:51 |
| mwhudson | thumper: a nice idea, it's not what they actually do though | 23:51 |
| barry | i'm not. i already have too much spam, so a little more won't hurt :) | 23:51 |
| * jml tries. | 23:51 | |
| mwhudson | jml: file a bug about having make lint warn about this? | 23:51 |
| barry | mwhudson: me too. *especially* after we open source. i'm hoping to find time to actually work on that | 23:51 |
| jml | ok. | 23:52 |
| mwhudson | jml: it's not that we don't try, it's that it's noone's main responsibility | 23:52 |
| barry | mwhudson: exactly | 23:53 |
| jml | mwhudson: agreed. | 23:53 |
| jml | I think we're coming to a close here. | 23:53 |
| thumper | agreed | 23:53 |
| barry | and with that... | 23:54 |
| barry | #endmeeting | 23:54 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 17:54. | 23:54 |
| mwhudson | thanks barry | 23:54 |
| barry | thanks guys | 23:54 |
| thumper | thanks barry | 23:54 |
| jml | mwhudson: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/385736 | 23:54 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 385736 in launchpad "'make lint' should warn about invalid docstrings" [Low,Triaged] | 23:55 |
| mwhudson | jml: thanks | 23:55 |
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