[10:38] <AnAnt> Hello, I need to discuss the dependencies of velocity, why does velocity depend on ant ?
[10:39] <AnAnt> the dependancy of velocity on ant makes it also pull in the default-jdk package (since default-jdk is Recommended by ant)
[10:39] <AnAnt> although velocity (as far as I know) is just a bunch of classes that can be used by other java software
[10:39] <persia> AnAnt, The trick being not so much that you weren't asking in the right place before, but that perhaps nobody in Ubuntu clearly knows.
[10:39] <AnAnt> persia: haha, you noticed ?
[10:39] <persia> Of course.
[10:39] <AnAnt> persia: ok, I looked at the changelog
[10:40] <AnAnt> I see that in the past velocity depended on a libant
[10:40] <AnAnt> libant1.6-java
[10:40] <AnAnt> then that changed to  ant
[10:40] <persia> Indeed.  The package also contains some stuff that gets installed to usr/share/ant/lib
[10:41] <AnAnt> oh
[10:42] <AnAnt> I still don't get it
[10:43] <persia> I don't know the real reason either.  The dependency was changed in Debian in 2005, without clear comment.
[10:44] <persia> But I suspect it's in part because there exists no libant anymore, and it is required to enable the ant integration to work.
[10:45] <AnAnt_> if it is to enable ant integration to work, then probably ant should be in Suggests
[10:46] <persia> Hrm?  Why?
[10:46] <persia> Perhaps it won't install, or won't work without ant.
[10:47] <persia> Perhaps it uses ant as part of it's JSP management
[10:47] <AnAnt_> what's JSP ?
[10:47] <david_yu> java server pages
[10:48] <persia> AnAnt, Let's look at this a different way.  Why don't you want ant installed?
[10:49] <AnAnt_> persia: ok, ant pulls in default-jdk
[10:49] <AnAnt_> persia: which is a big overhead, although one may only need the velocity.jar from velocity package
[10:50] <AnAnt_> ant Recommends default-jdk, which is understandable
[10:50] <AnAnt_> but I don't quite understand that velocity *Depends* on ant
[10:50] <persia> AnAnt, OK.  For what do you only need velocity.jar?
[10:50] <AnAnt_> persia: a java software depends on velocity, dunno why though, I'm not much a java developer
[10:51] <persia> And do you know that this software operates properly without ant?
[10:52] <AnAnt_> isn't ant just some sort of a make system for java packages ?
[10:52] <AnAnt_> build system
[10:52] <persia> Kinda sorta.
[10:53] <AnAnt__> d/c again
[10:53] <AnAnt__> ok, so ant is only needed in build time
[10:53] <AnAnt__> not runtime
[10:53] <AnAnt__> yes, the software does use ant to build
[10:53] <AnAnt__> probably I need to make sure from upstream if he needs velocity in runtime
[10:54] <persia> Well, except that ant tends to be used for more runtime automation than make.
[10:54] <persia> Yes, that would be a good idea.
[10:54] <AnAnt__> runtime automation ?
[10:56] <persia> Performing scripted tasks at runtime.
[10:57] <persia> Remember, ant is just a collection of java code that is well suited to automating tasks.  This can be used as a build system, and that's the primary use of ant, but it can also be used in other ways.
[11:01] <AnAnt___> ok, the app does need velocity
[11:02] <AnAnt___> and when I removed ant (and kept velocity), the app does work
[11:03] <persia> Well, file a bug asking for ant to be a recommendation rather than a dependency then.
[11:04] <AnAnt___> hmm, probably more testing first
[11:04] <AnAnt___> thanks anyways
[11:28] <AnAnt> persia: recommendation or suggestion ?
[14:16] <AnAnt_> seems that debian bug 506018 is related to what I was talking about
[22:00] <manzur> hola
[22:01] <manzur> alguien sabe java aca?
[22:01] <manzur> javascript
[22:07] <fenn_> where is a good place for a newbee java programmer to get more answers than attitude - especially for graphics programming
[22:07] <fenn_> ?
[22:10] <fenn_> manzur:Sé que algunos de Java - ¿Cuál es su pregunta?