=== edson is now known as edsoncanto [08:34] [1;3D [11:46] /clear [11:47] (행동) [15:58] * mvo looks around [15:58] * liw looks around [15:58] * robbiew waves [15:59] I got 1 minute! [15:59] morning [15:59] hi [16:00] #startmeeting [16:00] Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew. [16:00] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [16:00] hi liw: mvo: slangasek: cjwatson: [16:00] hi [16:00] Keybuk: around? done crying about your iPhone :P [16:01] ;) [16:01] what happend to it? [16:01] Agenda: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0610#Agenda [16:01] james_w: awake? [16:02] aye aye [16:02] hi [16:02] mterry: howdy [16:03] last one in takes dmraid [16:03] lol [16:03] mvo: nothing interesting, just told me it had core dumped [16:03] heh [16:03] doko: you joining..or just listening :) [16:03] * evand1 knocks over everyone in his path to the entrance [16:04] robbiew: interesting management technique ;) [16:04] thanks for taking dmraid evand1 :P [16:04] robbiew: joining [16:04] okay...let's go! [16:04] [TOPIC] DMRaid [16:04] New Topic: DMRaid [16:05] TheMuso can't take it to Desktop...so I need someone to take it [16:05] Why is it so scary? Just needs special hardware? [16:05] ok, so [16:05] yeah [16:05] as I understand it the hardware is pretty common (part of the usual intel motherboard chipsets that lots of people have) [16:06] dmraid is a system for dealing with low-end hardware raid - but it's not using a proper raid controller, it's basically done in the bios [16:06] well..it's software raid, so I don't think it's that special [16:06] the reason it's a bit scary is that (a) the hardware is nasty (b) the software is nasty [16:06] heh [16:06] TheMuso is willing to help whomever takes it over get up to speed [16:06] nasty + nasty = scary ? [16:06] * slangasek doesn't have the hardware here [16:06] I have the chipset on my desktop machine, but I want to use that machine, and I am not sacrificing its hard disks to dmraid :P [16:07] and (c) scott keeps changing things underneath you [16:07] How do i know if I have the right hardware? [16:07] it basically occupies an uncomfortable halfway house between proper hardware raid and mdadm [16:07] Keybuk, which Scott? :) [16:07] however, dmraid *mostly* works now; the main thing that's missing is that IIRC the desktop installer doesn't yet deal with it [16:07] I'm sure I could appropriate some of the OEM hardware, if we have matching stuff [16:07] but of course it needs maintenance, and I understand that the userspace side is being integrated into mdadm at some point [16:07] mterry, TheMuso gave the specs in a previous meeting, but I can't find it now [16:08] every bios vendor has their own flavour of it so there's a certain amount of whack-a-mole involved [16:08] mterry: the only issue with you taking it...is when you go back to OEM next cycle [16:08] unless you want to keep it :) [16:08] take it, fix it, document it, leave it? :) [16:08] robbiew: But then doko comes back for it, right? I thought it was doko's baby. Maybe I'm misremembering [16:08] robbiew, that's not an issue, that's "distributing knowledge around the company" [16:08] mterry: no..TheMuso's [16:08] Ah [16:08] certainly anyone taking it ought to have the relevant hardware, if only because that provides an incentive to make it work well [16:09] right [16:09] * doko is handling over glibc to mterry [16:09] but I imagine there's some company hardware somewhere with it, as you say [16:09] I also imagine that I could find some from the server team...since we are doing it for them in many ways [16:09] IIRC there hasn't been a lot of Ubuntu community interest in it unfortunately [16:10] (if I'm wrong, sorry, no slight intended) [16:10] maybe we try giving it back to the server team....though I don't have much hope in them taking it [16:11] raid sounds very servery ;) [16:11] Well, if I'm not suitable, maybe OEM could give up some hardware to someone else, if people are worried about frying their stuff [16:11] dmraid does not sound very servery to me ;-) [16:11] * soren concurs with liw :) [16:11] server people hate dmraid because it's cheap [16:12] I'm slightly confused by this being driven by the server team but the last missing piece being integration in ubiquity. [16:12] Everything we have is Intel, and we've got old netbooks [16:12] it's something hot-rod machines sold to gamers use [16:12] anyway, I think it'd be cool for mterry to do it personally [16:12] cjwatson: okay [16:12] * liw votes for mterry [16:12] Again, it's not clear I have the hardware. Will have to talk to TheMuso [16:12] but we'll need to figure out a plan for post-mterry :) [16:13] ok [16:13] [ACTION] mterry to talk to TheMuso about dmraid [16:13] ACTION received: mterry to talk to TheMuso about dmraid [16:13] I assume we're obligated to love it? [16:13] Like, we can't just kick it to universe and wipe our hands? [16:13] yes...but I can't remember why....cjwatson? [16:13] I'd be willing to take it, but the company would need to get me a gaming rig^W^W test machine [16:14] heh [16:14] heh [16:14] largely because lots of real hardware uses it and people get upset when Ubuntu doesn't work right on it [16:14] * ogra puts a "i love hot rods" sticker on mterry's back [16:14] if we aren't dmraid-aware, then if you try to install Ubuntu alongside e.g. an existing Windows installation, then it trashes your Windows installation for you [16:14] (with lots of flames) [16:14] ah...right [16:14] since it desyncs the multiple disks [16:14] I recall TheMuso mentioning tht [16:14] that [16:14] cjwatson: Ah. That just needs marketing as a feature, not a bug. But good point [16:14] * Keybuk hides the Alienware logo on his desktop [16:15] "just" :) [16:15] mterry: I guess just chat with TheMuso later today and let me know if you can do it...thnks [16:16] robbiew: OK [16:16] [TOPIC] Karmic Roadmap [16:16] New Topic: Karmic Roadmap [16:16] http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.10 [16:16] LINK received: http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.10 [16:16] https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&zx=1bwv90j2o1its&shva=1#inbox [16:16] I still need to put in the Medium and Lows...and move over to ubuntu.com [16:16] plars: ???? [16:17] It's becoming clear as I populate the list...that there's NO way we can deliver all this [16:17] at least, in my opinion [16:17] put in the medium and lows?! [16:17] Heh [16:17] can we add e?glibc-2.10 to the roadmap? [16:17] no [16:18] heh [16:18] robbiew: sorry, misfire [16:18] robbiew: do you want to stick with 2.9 for karmic? [16:19] doko: are you saying glibc or eglibc? [16:19] robbiew: do you want multiarch on there as a 'low'? :) [16:19] robbiew: the swap file stuff has two parts [16:19] a boot part and an installer part [16:19] robbiew: parse it as an extended regexp ;) [16:20] slangasek: whatever the blueprint says [16:20] * robbiew forgot to put that in...like i said, it's not done [16:20] Keybuk: right...okay [16:20] the installer part's pretty trivial - I'd be happy for us to do that bit without splitting up the blueprint [16:20] I don't see copyright stuff on that list. Was that not us? [16:20] slangasek: maybe delay that after debconf? [16:21] [ACTION] robbiew to break apart the swapfile into boot and installer [16:21] ACTION received: robbiew to break apart the swapfile into boot and installer [16:21] cjwatson: the boot part is pretty trivial too ;) [16:21] cjwatson: okay [16:21] doko: delay what? after debconf would be too late to start on a spec for karmic... [16:21] that works too [16:21] mterry: it is...just not gotten to it yet [16:21] doko: and I'm trying to get the spec finalized so that Guillem has something to work to [16:21] * mterry is excited about the dep5 future [16:22] you're excited about 4 more months of bikeshedding? :) [16:22] * mterry will be excited to have a bikeshed anyway [16:22] slangasek, I'm excited about four months of bikeshedding that you drive :) [16:23] so, I obviously need to finish this roadmap today/tomorrow, but wanted to let everyone see it now...to start the panic early ;) [16:23] slangasek: wasn't aware that you do want to finish the spec before [16:23] in case people haven't noticed, BTW, this week is listed on the release schedule as the deadline for getting specs written [16:24] robbiew: should we contact you about items that are not on that list yet, or are you aware of the missing specs? [16:24] I would like us to think about putting delivery milestones for our work...using the section in the blueprints [16:24] evand1: no...I'm still building the list [16:24] cjwatson, FeatureDefinitionFreeze? it's not june 18? [16:24] okay [16:24] liw: see the note against the previous week in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicReleaseSchedule [16:25] IOW the specs need to be written up so that we have time to sift through them and agree what we're actually doing [16:25] cjwatson, bah, that should be in the .ics file too, too many places to poll :( [16:25] cjwatson: +1 [16:25] *ick* [16:25] * mvo will have to focus on spec writing today then [16:25] if you already know of work that you simply cannot do...let me know [16:26] I can defer it, until next cycle...or help resolve the conflict of priorities [16:26] * Keybuk hasn't even started writing specs yet [16:27] * liw is still recovering from three weeks of travel [16:27] cry me a river [16:27] lol [16:28] but yeah, finishing the specs I have this week should be reasonably possible, if I stop reading e-mail [16:28] * james_w can finish the specs this week. The work on the other hand... :-) [16:29] okay...moving on [16:29] [TOPIC] Bugs [16:29] New Topic: Bugs [16:29] robbiew: there was precious little agreement on foundations-karmic-ubuntu-one-in-installer, IIRC; the gobby document ends with "we won't change the installer" [16:29] so I think you can safely take that off our list [16:29] cjwatson: yep...good point [16:29] will do [16:29] * Keybuk writes the words "See implementation" in all his specs [16:29] done! [16:30] [ACTION] robbiew to take off ubuntu-one-in-installer [16:30] ACTION received: robbiew to take off ubuntu-one-in-installer [16:30] Alpha 2 is tomorrow [16:30] * slangasek chooses Keybuk as approver for all his specs [16:30] heh [16:31] he's the OTS of spec regulation [16:31] OTS? [16:31] Office of Thrift Supervision :) [16:31] heh [16:31] not much to say about bugs for alpha2...since it's tomorrow [16:31] so moving on to our favorite topic: [16:32] [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue [16:32] New Topic: Sponsorship Queue [16:32] I sucked during my scheduled timeslot yesterday, but rocked this morning to make up for it [16:32] (until I remembered that we were in soft freeze and rapidly switched to universe stuff, whoops) [16:33] FWIW, dholbach has a little website that tries to gather sponsorship stats on each developer [16:33] lol [16:33] * slangasek blames all CD problems today on cjwatson [16:33] slangasek: isn't that the norm? :P [16:33] no, I usually blame them on Keybuk [16:34] somehow that doesn't surprise me [16:34] * james_w sponsored two things this morning, with an hour scheduled on Friday for some more [16:34] anyway, I know you all have tons to do...but please make sure to check the queue when you can [16:35] [TOPIC] Activity report news [16:35] New Topic: Activity report news [16:35] I haven't read them all...but does anyone have something they want to bring up? [16:36] taking the silence as a "No!" [16:36] tomorrow is a public holiday in (my part of) germany [16:36] [TOPIC] Good News [16:36] New Topic: Good News [16:36] mvo: well, that's good news :) [16:36] for you [16:36] heh [16:36] still more merges to be done :) [16:36] :) [16:37] I got a 73" HDTV coming today :D [16:37] only 15 merges left under doko's name [16:37] robbiew: your performance review went well, then! [16:37] lots of my specs appear to be pleasingly small [16:37] Keybuk: lol...no, my realtor gave me back 2% of her 3% commission ;) [16:38] (couple of meaty ones, there's plenty left to do on grub2) [16:38] cjwatson: yeah...I was worried at first [16:38] slangasek: are there some where I should help? [16:38] slangasek: I can help with those as well [16:38] 73"? I have TV envy. [16:38] doko, mvo: don't bother with gawk, I'm going to assert my maintainership of the package in Debian and try to get that into a sync [16:39] 'assert my maintainership' sounds so forceful [16:39] evand1, above 50" are only for managers :P [16:40] apparently! [16:40] mterry: this is slangasek's manly side [16:40] #endmeeting [16:40] Meeting finished at 10:40. [16:40] whoa, I had one AOB [16:40] * mvo is pretty impressed after he calculated what 73" means in centimeter [16:40] heh...i see we've digressed [16:40] oh [16:40] sorry [16:40] anyway, it's quick [16:40] 8.04.3 [16:40] cjwatson: Just like yours is going into the woods without a patch system [16:40] fire away [16:40] mterry: hah [16:40] heh...that's a significant AOB [16:40] there are a few things that I think still ought to be cleared up for .3 if possible [16:41] evand1: bug 219192 [16:41] Launchpad bug 219192 in casper "[hardy] livecd: keyword "persistent" results in busybox and (initramfs)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/219192 [16:41] doko (or somebody who can play him on TV): bug 288279 [16:41] Launchpad bug 288279 in openjdk-6 "Wrong path for dejavu fonts" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/288279 [16:41] sure thing [16:42] mterry: Debian politics... the package was put up for adoption, I adopted it in agreement with the maintainer, someone else is uploading it using maintainer version numbers :) [16:42] and it'd be nice if somebody could look at bug 347303 and bug 246625 [16:42] Launchpad bug 347303 in perl "ENV{TZ} and strftime in perl not working" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/347303 [16:42] Launchpad bug 246625 in xen-3.3 "libc6-xen not used by dynamic linker" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/246625 [16:42] (maybe not for .3 in the latter two cases) [16:43] cjwatson: openjdk-6: I'm tempted to prepare an update for hardy based on the jaunty package [16:44] I have one more of my own to take care of, namely bug 250400 [16:44] Launchpad bug 250400 in ssl-cert "make-ssl-cert fails if HOME is unset or empty" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/250400 [16:45] cjwatson: slangasek: anything else related to 8.04.3? [16:45] doko: I don't think a wholesale packaging update is appropriate, or likely to clear regression verification in time for .3 [16:45] that's all from me, dunno about Steve [16:46] nothing else from me; I'll poke people individually for anything critical [16:46] okay [16:46] #reallyendmeeting [16:46] :) [16:46] thanks all [16:46] thanks! [16:46] thanks [16:46] gracias [16:46] thanks! [17:58] hola! [17:59] Howdy. [17:59] Hi [17:59] hello folks! [17:59] * ogasawara waves [18:00] yo homies [18:00] hey everyone! [18:00] hey [18:00] hi [18:00] yo [18:01] #startmeeting [18:01] Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is heno. [18:01] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [18:02] We have a long agenda: UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro [18:02] well there's was no hug day the last week [18:02] but we are having one tomorrow cof cof [18:02] based on update-manager and update-notifier [18:02] [TOPIC] UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro [18:02] New Topic: UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro [18:02] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090611 [18:02] as always everybody is welcome to join us and clean up those products [18:03] thanks pedro_ [18:04] [TOPIC] New bug control members! -- bdmurray [18:04] New Topic: New bug control members! -- bdmurray [18:04] my pleasure [18:04] Paul Larson was added as a regular bug control member this past week [18:04] update-manager! [18:05] * heno hugs mvo [18:05] * mvo hugs heno and pedro_ [18:05] ara: regarding those bugs found for the update-manager, these might be good leads when writing desktop tests [18:05] * pedro_ hugs mvo back [18:05] cr3: indeed [18:06] how many update-manager bugs are really u-m bugs and how many belong to other packages (typically) [18:06] I'm guessing the u-m GUI itself doesn't have that many real bugs [18:06] heno: hard to say (and I'm biased of course), but I would say > 50% are not really u-m bugs. some are really hard to diagnose though [18:07] I think one problem is that u-m excercises the system a lot during a disk-upgrade so that HW problems show up more likely [18:07] it stresses network, mem and disk-io quite a bit [18:08] at some point I did some statistics, might be worthwhile to redo them [18:09] We should look at doing GUI-driven upgrade testing as part of the dist upgrade spec [18:09] mvo: would it be worthwhile to run a sanity check on hardware before running tests in order to detect those kinds of failures beforehand? [18:09] if that would help flush out such issues [18:09] cr3: a interessting idea [18:09] mvo: luckily, there are plenty of stress test suites out there already for hardware which could be integrated into checkbox [18:09] heno: absolutely, I hope with "update-manager --sandbox" this is easy(ier) now [18:10] mvo: I'm not completely convinced this would be useful so I'm just throwing the idea on the table [18:10] * mvo nods [18:11] fortunately the dist upgrade spec is not complete yet ;) so we can consider this [18:11] we'll look at that in the last agenda item [18:11] moving on ... [18:11] [TOPIC] Fridge Calendar Entry - wrong time -- schwuk [18:11] New Topic: Fridge Calendar Entry - wrong time -- schwuk [18:12] heno: in progress [18:12] ok [18:12] [TOPIC] Official Bug Tags - should apport- stuff be listed? -- bdmurray [18:12] New Topic: Official Bug Tags - should apport- stuff be listed? -- bdmurray [18:13] Launchpad now suggests the official bug tags when one is adding tags to a bug report and this is something that didn't exist when started the official tags list [18:14] I don't believe it useful for tags like apport-crash and apport-bug to be suggested since they should be added automatically [18:14] So I'd like to remove them from the "official" tag list [18:15] And only keep ones that should be added by people [18:15] does "official" status confer anything else to the tag? [18:15] does https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags otherwise map to the LP official list? [18:15] sbeattie: well, they show up in the official portlet vs the "other tags" portlet [18:16] but that's the only other advantage I know of [18:16] bdmurray: you want to remove them from the LP list (are they there?) or just the wiki page? [18:16] heno: some of the ones on the wiki page are experiments (ways to test new tags) [18:17] heno: from the lp list so they aren't recommended when someone is adding tags to a bug report [18:17] bdmurray: makes sense [18:17] heno: they'd stay on the wiki page as they are useful for triagers to understand when or why a tag was added [18:17] we could move them to an automatic section on the wiki page too [18:18] should we also move the experimental ones or highlight them in grey so we get a clear mapping between the two places? [18:19] maybe adding a column for the "official" ones? [18:19] anyway +1 for your original suggestion, bdmurray [18:19] right, or just mark the others with a '*' [18:20] but we're bikesheding ... [18:20] heno: Fridge entry fixed. [18:20] [TOPIC] qa.u.c landing page. Any news? -- ara [18:20] New Topic: qa.u.c landing page. Any news? -- ara [18:20] I just wanted to ask about how this is going [18:20] ok, how about this one :) schwuk ^ [18:21] IS are finally moving on this (after I poked them) but now there's a permissions problem. [18:21] how come the landing page says "ubuntu brainstorm"? [18:21] cr3: It won't soon :) [18:21] schwuk: how come it did in the first place? [18:21] cr3: because it's currently served by brainstorm - we're switching it to static content. [18:22] interesting... thanks for the background info [18:22] heno: I expect this to be complete by next weeks meeting. Hopefully by the end of this week. [18:22] the ISO tracker share code and used to share an instance, cr3 [18:22] schwuk: ok, thanks [18:23] schwuk: can you blog about it when it does? [18:23] schwuk: thanks [18:23] [TOPIC] Testing Days in Karmic -- ara [18:23] New Topic: Testing Days in Karmic -- ara [18:24] I am wondering when should we start again with the testing days [18:24] heno: of course [18:24] do you think we are late enough in the cycle to start with them? [18:25] Might be good time for a Hardy.3 SRU testing day [18:25] or possibly Jaunty SRUs? [18:25] heno: hrm, yeah, makes sense [18:25] sbeattie: which one? :) [18:25] both, honestly. [18:26] :) [18:26] ara: things like grub2 and ext4 default are landing [18:26] though hardy.3 should come soon, given upcoming deadline. [18:26] it's early for Gnome stuff though [18:26] yes, I think there's enough stuff landing already that karmic testing days make sense. [18:26] pedro_: when should we expect the first Gnome drops? [18:27] ara: reminds us of the topic suggestion URL? [18:28] heno: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/UbuntuTestingDay/Features [18:28] ok, let's add our ideas there [18:29] heno: IIRC next week we might have some new packages with Gnome 2.27 on karmic [18:29] should we aim for an SRU testing day next Monday? [18:29] heno: that's reasonable. [18:29] sbeattie: which ever release is most pressing, or both [18:30] pedro_: does it make sense to get formal testing of that or is it too raw? [18:32] it's a bit raw now, I'd wait for 2.27.4 or .5 which is due to July for doing a more formal testing [18:32] ok [18:33] Jul 15 2.27.4 and Jul 29 2.27.5 for being more specific [18:33] ara: is that enough to get us started? [18:33] heno: sure, we can start with srus, then ext4 and/or grub2 and then move to gnome stuff [18:34] ok, great [18:34] sbeattie: for next monday hardy or jaunty? [18:34] there are also some new Karmic features listed here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/RegressionImmunisation [18:34] Right now, hardy, but I may expand it to cover jaunty as well. [18:34] ara ^ [18:35] speaking of which ... [18:35] [TOPIC] SRU Verifications -- sbeattie [18:35] New Topic: SRU Verifications -- sbeattie [18:35] First, thanks to Alexei Mokeev, ZelinskiyIS, gidantribal, medisoft, ded, and Patryk Bajer for testing SRUs and helping to get them out. [18:36] And second, as mentioned above, 8.04.3 is coming (july 9th I believe). [18:36] sbeattie: do we know when the verification deadline is? [18:36] Hrm, no, I'll ask slangasek. [18:37] But I would expect a week or two before. [18:37] ok [18:37] Sine there'll be a run up time of image testing. [18:37] right [18:38] how many images are we doing now, just Ubuntu server? [18:38] hrm, once again, I don't recall if we're spinning desktop images as well. [18:39] The calendar at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule doesn't say [18:39] ok [18:39] next [18:39] [TOPIC] Spec Roadmap review -- heno [18:39] New Topic: Spec Roadmap review -- heno [18:39] see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap [18:40] it's looking better, but there are still gaps [18:40] let's go down the list of non-Approved specs and get some drafting ETAs [18:41] Specialization Within bug-control [18:41] pedro_: ^? [18:41] I'm a bit behind with my spec, since i wasn't around the last week but i hope to have that drafted by the end of the week [18:42] What's the (i) for on that page? [18:42] pedro_: right, do you need some help drafting? [18:42] for hopefully having more opinions on the subject from the community team [18:42] bdmurray: informational [18:42] I should add it to the key :) [18:42] heno: that'd be nice :-) [18:43] ogasawara: Package Greasemonkey Scripts ? [18:43] heno: hoping to get it done by end of the week since I just became the drafter yesterday [18:43] understood [18:44] ogasawara: could you also add the two kernel bug specs to that page? [18:44] I'll be helping out with that one [18:44] heno: will do [18:44] bdmurray: great, thanks [18:44] fader: Extended Audio Testing ? [18:45]