/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/06/12/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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vorian@now02:00
st33med@what?02:09
loolNCommander, ogra: I think the thunderbird issue should be findable in the VCS log or a quick bisect, no?03:02
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dholbachhello everybody, we should have persia, soren and nixternal here08:01
dholbachwho's here for the MC meeting?08:01
* stgraber waves08:01
* nellery is here08:01
nixternalyodle yodle yodle08:01
nixternalagenda?08:01
dholbachhi stgraber and nellery :)08:01
dholbachnixternal, persia, soren: who wants to chair?08:02
* persia waves08:02
* persia doesn't today08:02
dholbachok, I understand - I do it :-)08:02
dholbach#startmeeting08:02
MootBotMeeting started at 02:02. The chair is dholbach.08:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]08:02
dholbach[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting08:02
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting08:02
dholbachnixternal: agenda ^ :-)08:02
nixternallooking at it now :)08:03
dholbachvorian, AnAnt: you guys around?08:03
persiaFirst up is AnAnt, who can't make it today.08:03
vorianYUS!08:03
dholbachok great, let's take vorian first then08:03
persiavorian, So, You put MOTU/Core-Dev as your application type.  Which are you seeking today?08:03
dholbach[TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StephenStalcup/CoreDeveloperApplication08:04
MootBotNew Topic:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StephenStalcup/CoreDeveloperApplication08:04
vorianpersia: MOTU08:04
persiaOK.  So we'll ignore the application for now, and just do a MOTU renewal?08:04
vorianYes, if that's okay?08:05
persiaThat's fine.  The other option was to do a application for core-dev recommendation :)08:05
nixternalwhy is it everytime we do a meeting that has to do with membership lp is dead for me?08:05
dholbachnixternal: what do yo umean?08:05
persiaSo, for MOTU renewal, the thing I always want to know is: What do you plan to work on if renewed?08:05
nixternaltakes forever to load up, it is up now08:06
vorianpersia: I plan on continuing to work on KDE related packaging with the Kubuntu team, including most of the KDE stack - and several neet aps in universe.  I also would like to rejoin sponsors08:07
persiaAll areas where you've done great work in the past :)08:07
nixternalCare to explain the reasoning behind jettisoning MOTU originally, and what you plan on doing to prevent that sort of thing from happening again?08:08
vorianthanks :)08:08
* nixternal had to be the ass :)08:08
voriannixternal: fair question08:08
* dholbach learned the word "jettison" today08:08
nixternalplus I wanted to beat persia to the question :)08:08
nixternaldholbach: I used it pretty much every day aboard ship in the navy :)08:08
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vorianI was extremely frustrated with the way the TB meeting went down, frustrated with my responses, the timing of it, the whole thing.  Then there were some other areas in real life that were causing me to be stressed out as well.08:10
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vorianI almost immediatley regretted doing it, and have had a few months to ponder what I could have done differently08:11
nixternalhas it been that long already?08:11
vorianwhich is just to take a step back, and chill out08:11
vorianyeah :/08:11
dholbachvorian: how many areas in Ubuntu do you see right now that are frustrating to you?08:12
nixternalpersonally, since I get to work with you every day, I think that was honestly the best thing you could have done in regards to chilling out, as you have become more all around in the community as well08:12
voriandholbach: none right now.08:12
persiavorian, I can't believe that.  *Something* must frustrate you.08:12
nixternalhe has the art of zen mastered now08:13
persiaOtherwise, there's no reason to make it better :)08:13
vorianwell, yes08:13
nixternalhow about the idiot from openSUSE leaving a shite comment on my blog today? that has to frustrate you :p08:13
vorianComments like a SuSE troll made on nixternals blog frustrate me08:13
nixternalghahahahah08:13
nixternalholy shite08:13
* vorian finds a link08:13
dholbachvorian: is there anything else other than chilling out that you'd recommend to other people who get into a similar position as you did?08:13
voriandholbach: yes, absolutely08:14
nixternalheh, i thought i was the only one who read that :)08:14
voriantake a moment and private message a good friend or two08:14
vorianreach out.  It's what I really should have done.08:14
voriandholbach, persia: yes, actually there are a few Kubuntu things that frustrate me - we seem to have slipped a bit in qa08:15
dholbachthat makes sense, especially as we're a very distributed team and have different cultures, context goes missing on IRC, etc. etc. - it's very easy to take things wrong on a bad day08:16
vorianit's a topic on out "to do" list for Karmic - and I intend to help out on the QA side of things08:16
nixternalfor me, getting back to the development roots has helped curve a current session of burnout I was starting to face...I still love the community, but I had to step back from being so entwined08:16
voriandholbach: agreed08:16
nixternalw00t, vorian and I rocking the QA08:16
persiavorian, So, to get back to the last question you were asking in confirmation procedures: can you share any details on some of the pitfalls involved in changing between different versions of libdb?08:16
persias/asking/asked/08:17
nixternalI have one more apport todo first then it is off to the races with qa and hopefully talking to ara about stuff and polling them for some assistance to get everything kickstarted08:17
* nixternal feels good cop bad cop08:18
vorianpersia: if the transition is not done correctly existing data could be lost.08:19
persiaOr corrupted, but yes.  Thanks :)08:20
persiaIs there a way to check if a given package will suffer that fate?08:20
vorianyes, if 'transation' is in the source code08:21
* persia is done with questions08:21
dholbachnixternal, soren: any more questions?08:21
nixternaldholbach: not from me, I have seen vorian grow since his little break, which really wasn't a break in all honestly...he has rebounded very well from the prior situation and I am so happy that he stuck around08:22
* dholbach is done too08:22
dholbachsoren? :)08:23
voriannixternal: i'm happy to have lurked around, helping too :)08:23
sorenSorry, my phone rang.08:23
* soren catches up.08:23
sorenNah, I think you guys covered it pretty well.08:24
dholbach[VOTE] Shall Stephen Stalcup re-join the MOTU team?08:24
MootBotPlease vote on:  Shall Stephen Stalcup re-join the MOTU team?.08:24
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot08:24
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting08:24
dholbach+108:24
MootBot+1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 108:24
nixternal+108:24
MootBot+1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 208:24
soren+108:24
MootBot+1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 308:24
persia+108:25
MootBot+1 received from persia. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 408:25
dholbach[endvote]08:25
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 408:25
dholbachcongratulations vorian and welcome back08:25
vorianthanks!08:25
dholbach[TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NickEllery/MOTUApplication08:25
MootBotNew Topic:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NickEllery/MOTUApplication08:25
dholbachhiya nellery - still around?08:25
nelleryyup, I'm here08:25
dholbachhow are you doing? everything alright?08:26
nixternalcongrats and welcome back skooter08:26
nelleryI'm pretty good, a bit nervous of course08:26
vorian:)08:26
dholbachnellery: your application lists nhandler and me as endorsements... is there anybody else you worked primarily with?08:27
persianellery, You mention a couple things in "Things I could do better" that worry me: specifically "Ensuring that there no errors in uploads by going out of my way to double and triple check " and "Not to be too overconfident that an upload is perfect as it may blind me from errors ".  How do you intend to protect yourself against these issues without a sponsor?08:27
nellerydholbach: primarily in the karmic cycle, it has been you two who have done most of my sponsorship08:28
nelleryI did get in touch with another sponsor, but they didn't provide any endorsements08:28
nellerypersia: Errors have been nearly non-existant for the past while.  I intend to keep it this way by not rushing, staying within my confidence level, asking questions when necessary, and as mentioned, double checking for small errors08:30
persianellery, So these are things you're already doing better?08:31
e-jatcongrate vorian08:31
nellerypersia: essentially, and I believe that it will only get even better08:32
nixternalnellery: I was going to ask about *rushing* as it seems to be a common pitfull among many these days...one thing I would like to propose is that you do not stick within your confidence level and that you in fact step out of it from time-to-time, it will help you grow not only yourself, but also your level of confidence within yourself08:32
persianellery, One of your sponsors comments that much of your work has been with merges.  Do you have a couple examples of bugfixes you've written that you thought were good?08:33
nixternalin times of going outside the box, it is fine to grab support along the way, a helping hand is always good when building up confidence08:33
nellerynixternal: I absolutely agree with that, but I also believe that without a sponsor, that should not be done over extravagently08:34
nixternaltis why I said a bit of hand holding is fine08:34
dholbachnellery: there's nothing wrong with saying "can somebody take a look at this?" on IRC :-)08:35
\sh4 eyes are better than 2 eyes...even old maintainers do mistakes...and one reviewer more is helping you, me, everybody doing this kind of work08:35
voriani sponsored nellery on a few plasmoids, he did a very solid job08:35
nixternala lot of us MOTU ask others to look over our packages from time-to-time before uploading...it is actually a good thing to do, because after sticking your nose in the same thing all of the time, you start to become lazy or you start missing stuff, especially little thing08:35
nixternals08:35
dholbachnellery: coming back to the question I asked earlier... is there many people (maybe on IRC) that you work with? is kde and science something you'd like to work on in the future or are you going stay "all over the place"? :)08:35
nellerydholbach: personally I wish to stay "all over the place" within universe08:36
nellerywithout any specific areas I restrict myself to08:37
dholbach ... and that with so many interesting packages in main! :-)08:38
nixternalfor instance, on bug 384331 looks like config.sub and config.guess made it into the debdiff...just to point out that even as a MOTU, stepping out and guidance are good, as nhandler did in this situation...I can't tell you how many times I have missed either this sort of thing or the big one that always hit me were translation files ending up in it...and like \sh said, 4 yes are better than 2 at time08:39
ubottuLaunchpad bug 384331 in klogic "Please merge klogic 1.63-5 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/38433108:39
nellerypersia: sorry missed your question.  Back in Jaunty I noticed that some plasmoids were not renamed during the transition, and opened bug #329627 to fix this08:39
ubottuLaunchpad bug 329627 in plasma-widget-tvprogramme "Some unchanged plasmoid source/binary package names" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/32962708:39
nellerynixternal: yes, and without a sponsor, guidance outside of bug reports is definetly something I will look to whenever necessary08:40
persianellery, Any bugfixes involving code changes?08:40
nixternalgroovy08:40
nellerypersia: for the most part I'm not much a coder08:40
nellerygetting better, but still not good enough to make those sort of fixes08:41
dholbachpersia, geser, soren, nixternal: any more questions?08:42
nixternalI am good08:42
nixternalI got him to say exactly what I wanted..I should be a cop or something, I am that darn good :p08:43
persianellery, What classes of differences from Debian should be preserved?08:43
dholbachnixternal: you probably better shouldn't :)08:43
nixternalmy laptop says it is 5:52pm08:43
nixternalbrb08:43
\shnixternal's a Bad Boy ;)08:44
nixternalhad to hop on my other machine08:44
nixternallaptop locked up08:44
sorenI'm good too.08:45
nellerypersia: what do you mean by "classes of differences"?08:45
sorenSorry about being so slow to respond. My laptop seems to be swapping like crazy.08:45
* soren switches to another machine08:46
nixternalhahaha, 2 machines down08:46
persianellery, You say "As a sponsor, I would ensure that everything that should be forwarded is forwarded." when talking about forwarding patches to Debian.  What types of patches should be forwarded, and what type not forwarded?08:46
nixternalthere we go, back to the laptp08:47
nellerypersia: patches which fix bugs which affect both distributions as well as those which add features such as desktop files, watch files, updated dependencies08:49
nellerypatches which are not Ubuntu specific08:50
persiaWell, some of the things you just mentioned often are Ubuntu-specific.  Any idea which might be?08:50
gesernellery: how do you determine if a bug exists in Debian too and is not due to some other changes in Ubuntu?08:51
nixternalpersia: actually 2 of them could be :)08:51
persianixternal, No hints.  I know you are qualified to be a MOTU :)08:52
nixternallol08:52
nellerypersia: updated dependencies may affect only one distribution, for example if the upstream releases are different versions, or that upstream version is only one or the other distribution08:52
persianellery, Right.  Also, Ubuntu sometimes has special dependencies (like for LPintegration).08:53
persiaAnd the other one?08:53
nellerya desktop file may be Ubuntu specific if it uses category not used in Debian08:56
nixternalbooyah08:56
persiaWell, no, because XDG categories are supposed to apply to both, but it was .desktop files.08:57
dholbach(or different names for the app, etc. - right :-))08:57
nixternalor, di...damn dholbach beat me to it08:57
persia(or different defaults for where to show, or whether to show by default)08:57
persiaOK.  I'm done.08:57
nixternalyay, one step closer to taking out the trash and going to bed :)08:58
dholbachgeser, soren: any more questions?08:58
geserno08:58
sorenNope.08:59
dholbach[VOTE] Shall Nick Ellery join the MOTU team?08:59
MootBotPlease vote on:  Shall Nick Ellery join the MOTU team?.08:59
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot08:59
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting08:59
dholbach+108:59
MootBot+1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 108:59
soren+108:59
MootBot+1 received from soren. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 208:59
persia+0 : I'd like a little more variation in work done, or more clear confidence in someone seeking to be a sponsor.09:00
MootBotAbstention received from persia. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 209:00
nixternal+109:00
MootBot+1 received from nixternal. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 309:00
* soren apologises again... was swtiching back to the laptop09:00
nixternalfigured you were, I did mine as I had my desktop up as well09:00
dholbachgeser?09:01
geser+109:01
MootBot+1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 409:01
dholbach[endvote]09:01
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 409:01
dholbachcongratulations nellery!09:01
persianellery, Congratulations!09:01
dholbach[TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stgraber/CoreDeveloperApplication09:01
MootBotNew Topic:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stgraber/CoreDeveloperApplication09:01
nixternalcongrats and welcome nellery...in regards to "sponsoring" I echo persia09:01
dholbachstgraber: still around? :)09:01
* stgraber wakes up09:01
nellerythanks! persia: that's absolutely something I will put much effort into, and you should expect to see change09:01
dholbach:-)09:02
dholbachstgraber: how are you doing?09:02
stgraberdholbach: tired but fine :)09:02
persianellery, Take extra care, because if you're not much of a coder, it's easy to be confused when reviewing a code patch.09:02
sorenstgraber: Sheesh, what time is it at your place now? 4 AM or something?09:02
dholbachsurvived UDS without Ubuflu?09:02
stgraber4am yeah09:02
* ogra looks up09:02
nellerythank you all.. time for some sleep09:02
stgraberdholbach: strangely yes :) first time it happens09:02
dholbachnellery: good night!09:02
dholbachgreat :)09:02
dholbachstgraber: so what kind of packages are you interested in working on specifically?09:03
stgraberwell, other than the packages I already have upload right for, I'd mainly be working on education packages for edubuntu and bug fixing in the server area09:03
soren\o/09:04
persiastgraber, What measures do you think should be taken to make the processes clearer?09:04
ograseein soren cheer, /me sees virtualized LTSP ahead09:04
ogra:)09:05
nixternaloh no, who let ogra in here?09:05
* ogra pokes nixternal in the ribs :)09:05
* nixternal uploaded edubuntu-desktop with kde* only in the meta09:06
stgraberpersia: recently, it was the SRU process that wasn't really clear to a few of my co-workers. It was well described on the wiki but without the "nag someone from the team" part, the bug can stay on launchpad for a while :)09:06
ograheh09:06
nixternalit should be KDE desktop, since all of the apps are :p09:06
persiastgraber, Right.  What should be done to improve that?09:06
stgraberpersia: probably having more motu-sru members would help or document the steps to take if for example you don't get an answer in your sru bug report after x weeks09:07
persiastgraber, How do you expect archive-reorganisation to affect Edubuntu?09:08
stgraberwell, I hope it'll make it a lot easier to get new contributors, though in the meantime we're looking at also having a few packages from universe in Edubuntu (that's in the TB's agenda for next meeting IIRC)09:09
stgrabercurrently it's kind of hard to find new contributors as if they want direct upload rights they need to be core developers09:10
dholbachstgraber: how many packages (roughly) are in edubuntu right now (that are not ubuntu+ltsp+friends)?09:10
stgraberdholbach: ltsp is actually no longer part of edubuntu :) let me find some numbers09:10
dholbachoh really?09:10
nixternalenough packages to make the addon cd full :)09:10
nixternalwell just over half full09:10
stgraberyeah, it's on Ubuntu alternate since Hardy (IIRC)09:10
persiastgraber, you applied for MOTU apparently in large part towads seeking your per-package uploader permissions.  Have you found you worked in many other areas as well, or did you feel that you were mostly concentrated on the packages for which you had per-package upload rights?09:11
ogradholbach, missed the memo, eh ? :)09:12
stgraberpersia: mostly on the packages for which I have the ACL and for a few others but that are also in main09:12
dholbachpersia: good question... stgraber: I was just about to ask what kind of server stuff you'd like to work on09:12
dholbachogra: well... I can't read ALL the memos :)09:12
stgraberwget http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/jaunty/release/edubuntu-9.04-addon-i386.list  -O - -q | grep deb$ | wc -l09:13
stgraber22809:13
stgraberthat's for the edubuntu addon cd09:13
ograLTSP relies on a good bunch of server packages ... to enhance or improve it working on these packages will be required09:13
ogra(and i wasnt actually joking when i said virtualized LTSP as an option of vm builder for example ;) )09:14
stgraberwell, LTSP's dependencies for a start (dhcp, tftp, inetd, ...) if needed and also basically everything else as my company does infrastructure work and so we touch basically every bit of the server stuff :)09:14
ogra... or LTSP in the clouds ;)09:14
stgrabercurrently playing with OpenVZ and libvirt for example09:14
sorenogra: I was about to say just that.09:14
sorenogra: (the cloud thing)09:14
stgraberwell, I'm currently sponsoring highvoltage to get ltsp-cluster in universe09:15
persiastgraber, One of your sponsors mentions that you'll be expected to be working with the Edubuntu seeds.  How are they organised?09:15
ograsoren, i know, i read your mind ... just wanted to be faster ;)09:15
sorenogra: :)09:15
stgraberso we'll have the loadbalancer and control center part for LTSP that could the be used for LTSP in the cloud09:15
dholbachstgraber: is there anything that you'd be too scared to touch in main?09:15
stgraberpersia: we currently have one for each of our meta packages (preschool/primary/secondary/tertiary)  then the ones for the edu packages for both kde and gnome IIRC, also one for the edubuntu content server (moodle basically)09:18
stgraberthough that's on my list of stuff to do soon with the Edubuntu project becoming a lot more active recently, haven't had a chance to look at the details yet09:19
stgraberdholbach: sure :) I'm not going to play with kernel, X, ... unless I get that review by someone else first as these are things I'm not used to touch (although for X I'm getting to know it quite well recently) and so don't know the details and decisions which were taken in the past09:21
dholbachpersia, soren, geser, nixternal: more questions?09:21
stgraberthere's always the difference between having the right to do something and actually doing it without asking :)09:21
sorenNot really.09:22
* soren things this is an easy one :)09:22
sorenthinks, even.09:22
persiaNothing else from me.09:22
nixternalnone here09:22
geserstgraber: for someone applying as core-dev I've expected to see some sponsored uploads to main, but your LP page doesn't show any. any explanations?09:22
ogrageser, he already has limited main uploads rights for various packages ... i (and laserjosk) did sponsor him in intrepid09:23
ogra*laserjock09:23
stgrabergeser: hmm, I already have the rights for most of my uploads, though I recently got libXcb uploaded and compiz (though part of another fix so not mentioned as the uploader)09:24
dholbachgeser: any more questions?09:26
geserI assumed that extending the upload rights to full core-dev implies a broader interested in some other packages which should (hopefully) be also seen in sponsored uploads in this area09:26
stgraberindeed, that'd be edubuntu in my case09:26
stgraberedubuntu wasn't active until last UDS09:26
stgraberwell, it was but not as active as we'd like it to be09:26
geserdholbach: done09:27
dholbach[VOTE] Shall St├ęphane Graber be recommended for core-dev membership?09:27
MootBotPlease vote on:  Shall St├ęphane Graber be recommended for core-dev membership?.09:27
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot09:27
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting09:27
nixternal+109:27
MootBot+1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 109:27
dholbach+109:27
MootBot+1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 209:27
* nixternal can take the garbage out now and go to bed?09:27
soren+1109:27
sorenwhoops09:27
soren+109:28
MootBot+1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 309:28
nixternallol09:28
dholbachsoren: bad call! :)09:28
ogragood call !!09:28
* soren picks up a penalty card09:28
persia+1.  I'd *much* rather recommend as edubuntu-dev, but I don't think we can do that yet, and I think stgraber has the wisdom to restrict himself.09:28
geser+109:28
MootBot+1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 409:28
ograpersia, doesnt help with all the server packages :)09:28
nixternalcongrats and good look on the next step09:28
* ogra hugs stgraber 09:29
dholbachweird... seems like persia's vote was not counted?09:29
persiaogra, I don't see evidence of the server work.09:29
stgraberthanks !09:29
* persia tries again09:29
ograpersia, LTSP uses about 10 server packages that need to be touched often09:29
dholbachpersia: try again with out the '.'09:29
nixternalare we done?09:29
persia+1 although I'd prefer to be recommending for edubuntu-dev09:29
MootBot+1 received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 509:29
dholbach[endvote]09:29
* stgraber looks at his bed and then the clock ... doh ... only 2 hours before having to wake up :)09:29
MootBotFinal result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 509:29
persiaThere we go.  '.' kills it.09:29
dholbachthanks a bunch everybody and congratulations stgraber!09:29
stgraberdholbach: thanks09:30
nixternalalrighty!!! \o/09:30
dholbach[TOPIC] Any other business?09:30
MootBotNew Topic:  Any other business?09:30
* dholbach is happy to do the honours09:30
nixternalnote here09:30
* nixternal needs to go to bed...can barely stay awake09:30
persiaogra, I don't see why that couldn't be covered by an extension of the LTSP ACL, and I think it's separate from the other documented work.09:30
nixternalg'nite!09:30
dholbachnixternal: sleep tight then :)09:30
* ogra adds topic, keeping nixternal busy 09:30
* nixternal hugs everyone!09:30
nixternalexcept for ogra09:30
ograheh09:30
nixternalnite nite09:30
persiaWho volunteers to do the admin for the meeting?09:30
persiaAh.  Thanks dholbach :)09:31
dholbachanything else?09:31
dholbach309:31
dholbach209:31
soren209:31
dholbach109:31
dholbachMeeting adjourned.09:31
soren\o/09:31
dholbach#endmeeting09:31
MootBotMeeting finished at 03:31.09:31
dholbachthanks a lot everybody09:31
dholbachand congratulations to nellery, stgraber and vorian again :)09:31
highvoltageyay stgraber core-dev \o.10:16
highvoltageyay stgraber core-dev \o/10:16
dholbachhighvoltage: recommended, the TB needs to approve still11:05
AnAntHello15:11
AnAntmeeting is over ?15:11
persiaAnAnt, Indeed.  Hours ago.15:14
* slangasek waves16:00
* ttx waves16:00
faderHowdy.16:00
* apw zones in16:00
henohey16:00
pittihello16:01
superm1hai16:01
sbeattiehey16:01
cjwatsonafternoon16:01
slangasekmdz, lool, rickspencer3, Riddell, Hobbsee, ScottK: there?16:05
slangasekrickspencer3: oh, I guess you're here since you just joined :)16:05
slangasekttx: are you sitting in for dendrobates?16:05
ttxslangasek: last minute replacement, yes16:05
slangasekok16:05
dyfetslangasek: i am standing in for lool16:05
rickspencer3slangasek: I'm lurking today, pitti si driving for desktop16:05
rickspencer3(as usual :) )16:05
* apw is sitting in for pgraner 16:05
slangasekrobbiew and pgraner both send their regrets16:06
* pgraner is lurking due to conf call 16:06
robbiewditto16:06
slangasek#startmeeting16:06
MootBotMeeting started at 10:06. The chair is slangasek.16:06
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:06
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-06-12 - agenda16:07
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-06-12 - agenda16:07
slangaseklet's get right into it, then16:07
slangasekI've been asked to bump Foundations up because cjwatson has another conflict, so let's cover that first16:08
slangasek[TOPIC] Foundations team16:08
MootBotNew Topic:  Foundations team16:08
cjwatsonright, sorry about that16:08
cjwatsonRobbie is working through a feature list; for Canonical folks it's at https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.10 but I think he wants to get all the specs into it before putting it on the public wiki16:09
cjwatsonthat should happen shortly16:09
cjwatsoncurrent count is 7 essential, 9 high, 14 medium, 2 low, with several low still to come; draw your own conclusions about delivery :-)16:10
cjwatsonregarding the bugs Steve listed in the agenda: I fixed bug 385995 today, and Michael apparently fixed bug 378997 a little while back but didn't close the bug, so I'll clean up the metadata there16:11
ubottuLaunchpad bug 385995 in grub-installer "sometimes tries to edit menu.lst even with GRUB 2" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/38599516:11
ubottuLaunchpad bug 378997 in cwidget "cwidget FTBFS with g++-4.4" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/37899716:11
slangasekah, nice :)16:12
cjwatsonthe introduction of GRUB 2 in Alpha 2 was a bit rocky, I thought, so personally I'm going to be putting a fair bit of effort for the next milestone on making sure that's more solid16:12
* slangasek goes rummaging for more bugs for next week...16:12
cjwatsonone of our high-priority specs is the switch to building as i58616:13
cjwatsonIIRC we said we'd do test rebuilds after alpha 2 ...16:13
slangasekinfinity poked me about that yesterday in order to take a snapshot16:13
cjwatsonoh, he's on it already? good16:14
cjwatsonother than that I don't think I have anything else to report - anything from others to us?16:15
ttxcjwatson: I see bug 364616 on steve's list for Server16:16
ubottuLaunchpad bug 364616 in ubuntu-release-notes "Wrong iscsistart path in iscsi hook" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/36461616:16
cjwatsonmm, that probably ought to become ours16:17
slangasekok16:17
* ttx hugs cjwatson16:17
apwcjwatson, has the work to make grub 'quiet' fallen anywhere?16:17
cjwatsonit'll be handled as part of our installer/iscsi specification (which is part "fix all the bugs", part development)16:17
cjwatsonapw: part of the foundations-karmic-grub2 spec, as yet incompletely drafted16:17
apwcjwatson, thanks16:17
slangasekcjwatson: should I assign that bug to anyone in particular?16:18
cjwatsonslangasek: if you need an assignee for it right now, it's me; I'm not sure whether that spec is going to stay with me16:18
slangasekdon't need one per se, but it's good to have; assigned16:19
slangasekis that still a realistic target for jaunty SRU, btw?16:19
cjwatsonI think so16:20
slangasekok16:20
cjwatsonpeople won't be able to do installations directly, but still16:20
* slangasek nods16:20
slangasekmoving on16:20
slangasek[TOPIC] QA team16:20
MootBotNew Topic:  QA team16:20
slangasek(thanks, cjwatson)16:21
henohi16:21
slangasekheno, fader, sbeattie: hello16:21
* fader waves.16:21
henofader: HW testing?16:21
faderhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html16:21
MootBotLINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html16:21
faderBug 384861 is interfering with testing the lab servers (it's not initializing Broadcom ethernet cards so the PXE install can't proceed)16:21
ubottuLaunchpad bug 384861 in linux "Broadcom NetXtreme II (BCM5708) not detected by installer [karmic]" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/38486116:21
faderThat's hitting a large number of systems so it's a fairly big blocker for us on server testing16:21
faderThere are a few other systems that haven't reported results that I'm looking into but that is the only big issue I've seen so far.16:21
slangasekapw: can you make sure that bug gets priority attention from the kernel team?16:22
apwthat bug has some proposed patches, and they are out for review on the kernel list16:22
apwit seems to be unassigned, so i will take it and drive those in16:22
slangasekthanks16:22
slangasek[ACTION] apw to drive bug #38486116:22
MootBotACTION received:  apw to drive bug #38486116:22
ubottuLaunchpad bug 384861 in linux "Broadcom NetXtreme II (BCM5708) not detected by installer [karmic]" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/38486116:22
cjwatsonshould mostly be a matter of applying the patches and getting quick testing turnaround at this point16:23
apwyep ... i acked them last night, will hastle others for review and get them in16:23
henosbeattie says nothing to report on regressions this week16:24
henothough I will point out that we are tracking Karmic changes for high risk items: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/RegressionImmunisation16:24
henoso please let us know about major upstream or local changes that can be high risk16:25
heno(we'll also be asking around)16:25
slangasek:)16:25
pittiam I back?16:26
slangasekdidn't know you were gone16:26
pittiI fell off the internet for a while, sorry16:26
henothat's all from QA16:26
slangasekheno, fader: great, thanks much!16:26
slangasek[TOPIC] Desktop team16:27
MootBotNew Topic:  Desktop team16:27
pittias usual, desktop status is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus16:27
pittiTBH I didn't do much in terms of chasing bugs just yet, I just updated their status on the page above16:27
pittifor alpha-3, I hope we can land the following structure changes:16:27
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus16:27
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus16:27
pitti- pidgin -> empathy16:27
pitti- new gdm16:27
pitti- symptom based bug reports16:27
pitti- perhaps gnome-bluetooth16:27
slangasekpitti: bug #341898> should the non-kernel task be closed, in that case?16:30
ubottuLaunchpad bug 341898 in xorg-server "MythTV Frontend does not work with RADEON DRI" [Unknown,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/34189816:30
superm1unfortunately i've got a report that the symptoms of bug 341898 have resurfaced on -vesa.  i'm doubtful it's fixed on -ati as upstream still feels that it's a bug in QT ( even though all other drivers work in jaunty ). there is a proposed patch for jaunty that I saw on the mesa mailing list for -ati that i'm going to try.16:30
pittislangasek: ideally yes, but bryce wanted to keep it open for bug reporters to find it more easily16:30
slangasekpitti: ah16:30
slangasek376396> Riddell tells me this is fixed (which is why I let the alpha-2 milestone for it slide), but I don't know where or how so I haven't closed the bug report16:31
pittislangasek: ah, thanks16:32
slangaseksuperm1: I guess you'll be following up on that then, to make sure it really gets fixed?16:32
* pitti isn't well prepared today admittedly, I didn't expect a meeting today16:32
superm1slangasek, yeah. i'm going to look at it on -vesa first as it's more common (swrast based drivers), but then i'll be revisiting -ati16:32
slangasekso all in all, the set of X reports for this cycle seem fairly mild so far; is that because KMS hasn't been turned on by default yet? :)16:34
pittislangasek: well, we are using UXA/DRI2 by default now16:35
slangasekyes16:35
apwthe next merge, and next kernel will contain a lot of updates, so we may well see more pain after that16:35
pittiI guess that already did a good job of replacing old known bugs with slightly fewer new bugs :)16:35
slangasekyay, progress. :)16:35
pittibut for alpha-3 I want to see KMS by default16:35
slangasekagreed16:36
apwpitti, ack, i think we agreed to that generally16:36
apwi will get with bryce to check we have the x bits and then enable it16:36
apw( for intel )16:36
pittiapw: working fine on a lot of mahcines once you add the modprobe.d blurp16:36
cjwatsonusplash hasn't been updated for KMS yet, I don't think16:36
pitticjwatson: I'm fine with adjusting that16:36
pittiit's just moving it out of initramfs into the normal startup sequence16:37
cjwatsonok, I had a patch to attempt to run it at the native resolution if KMS was available too16:37
pitti(or disabling it completely for the time being, which is the final goal anyway)16:37
cjwatsonbut I had some kind of transient trouble on my machine16:37
cjwatsonhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/194451/16:37
MootBotLINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/194451/16:37
slangasekpitti: erm, the examples of places where usplash was to be kept includes things that run from initramfs16:37
slangasek(decrypting hard drives)16:37
cjwatsonyes, it needs to still have the ability to run in the initramfs16:37
cjwatsonit may not want to do so by default for karmic, but still16:38
pittislangasek: right, but then it will disappear as soon as KMS kicks in16:38
slangaseksure16:38
cjwatsonwhich means that in such cases we need to start KMS in the initramfs, IMO16:38
slangaseksounds like this can probably be taken off-line if needed, though16:38
cjwatsonand *then* start usplash16:38
pittithe details will be discussed with Scott, but for now we could just disable it16:38
slangasekanything else for desktop?16:38
pitticjwatson: or that16:38
pittislangasek: not from me16:38
slangasek[TOPIC] Mobile16:39
MootBotNew Topic:  Mobile16:39
slangasekdyfet: hello16:39
dyfetbeing a late substitute, I did not come with a specific list of bugs or items in advance, however, I would be happy to cover any items others feels needs to be discussed for mobile.16:39
dyfetMy area is in arm development, and of course we are concerned with kernel issues there...but I see kernel is after me :)16:39
AnAntHello16:40
dyfetSo if people have items related to mobile, feel free to introduce them.16:40
slangasekI see armel didn't get a timely d-i build for alpha-2 because of kernel flavor changes; is that something folks knew about, that should have been escalated earlier and given priority for fixing?16:40
dyfetThat is part of the kernel issues I mentioned :)....16:41
apwarmel need love in general.  we have a drive to get karmic up to snuff wtf jaunty support right now16:41
cjwatsonI didn't realise until the build failure, basically - I don't know if I missed a mail about the flavour reduction16:42
slangasekonly somewhat kernel-y - updating d-i is Foundation's bailiwick16:42
apwcjwatson, was that the reducion to one flavour?16:43
cjwatsonyes16:43
cjwatsonI don't see anything on -installer16:43
dyfetyes16:43
slangasekthe ftbfs fix was merged into the d-i repo on the 8th, which wasn't too late for us to have had it uploaded; but the upload didn't happen and I didn't notice it myself until much later16:43
apwhrm sounds like a process failure our end then.  will feed that back as we have flavour changes coming16:43
cjwatsonoh, meh, the lack of upload was probably my fault admittedly16:43
apwas part of the blueprints implementation16:43
cjwatsonI think Michael said he had more ports fixing coming and I was waiting for that16:44
dyfetI will bring this back for others to discuss in mobile too16:44
cjwatsonI'll at least arrange for an upload now, sorry about that16:44
dyfetI am aware of the issue, not the resolution :)16:44
slangasekok, sounds like we have a handle on what went wrong in this case16:45
slangasekeveryone please be sure that issues you know of that would block arm from being in future milestones get escalated / addressed16:45
cjwatsonwe still need to sort out the kernel issue that requires us to hardcode kernel versions in cdimage code16:46
* slangasek nods16:46
cjwatsonthat's essentially a coordinated kernel/installer change16:46
cjwatson(the problem is that the installer udebs are shipped with versions in their vmlinuz etc. filenames, rather unnecessarily16:46
cjwatson)16:47
dyfetdo we have any other arm or mobile issues in general?16:48
slangasekdyfet: that means if you guys know ARM is broken and you don't see it getting resolved by the week of the milestone, yell :)  There are a couple dozen images the release team tracks for the milestone, which means it's unfortunately easy to overlook ARM problems until it's too late given that we're also not doing the testing16:48
cjwatsonI'm not sure I have a bug about it, I think it's basically http://paste.ubuntu.com/194463/ with added coordination16:48
dyfetslangasek: fair enough :)16:48
slangasekcjwatson: ah, the armel udeb naming is inconsistent with other archs?16:49
cjwatsonudeb naming is consistent but not the contents16:49
slangasekah16:49
dyfetoh?16:49
cjwatsonlp_archive@cocoplum:/tmp/cjwatson$ dpkg -c /home/lp_archive/ubuntu/pool/main/l/linux/kernel-image-2.6.30-8-generic-di_2.6.30-8.9_i386.udeb | grep vmlinuz16:50
cjwatson-rw-r--r-- root/root   3703120 2009-06-03 19:23 ./boot/vmlinuz16:50
cjwatsonis basically the root of the problem16:50
cjwatsonlp_archive@cocoplum:/tmp/cjwatson$ dpkg -c /home/lp_archive/ubuntu/pool/main/l/linux/kernel-image-2.6.30-8-imx51-di_2.6.30-8.9_armel.udeb | grep vmlinuz16:50
cjwatson-rw-r--r-- root/root   1894532 2009-06-03 17:27 ./boot/vmlinuz-2.6.30-8-imx5116:50
apwcjwatson, sounds like and easy fix at least16:50
cjwatsonyeah, patch above should fix it if we take care to do that at the same time as installer and cdimage changes16:51
apwi could test that change with your changes16:51
cjwatsonwe noticed in jaunty but didn't have time to do anything about it16:51
apwfor the firmware udebs16:51
cjwatsonand then the release sort of took over16:51
slangasekapw, cjwatson: can be followed up off-line?16:51
apwack16:52
cjwatsonyep16:52
cjwatsonI have to go now anyway16:52
slangasekok - thanks :)16:52
slangasek[ACTION] apw and cjwatson to follow up on clean-up of armel vmlinuz naming16:52
MootBotACTION received:  apw and cjwatson to follow up on clean-up of armel vmlinuz naming16:52
slangasek[TOPIC] Kernel team16:52
MootBotNew Topic:  Kernel team16:52
slangasekapw: and you're on16:52
apwFeatures wise, the majority of the development items are proceeding well, most specs are either done or nearing completion.  The main deliverables which affect the release are proceeding well.  KMS testing is ongoing, using previews of the Intel and ATI trees, in concert with the x-swat team.  Grub2 testing is going well with almost no failures.  Testing of aufs replacements is also ongoing with test kernels available.  Apparmour development is p16:52
apwroceeding with the aim of hitting the .31 merge window.  Arm am51 support is missing, this is being worked as part of the current enablement work should have a timetable by the end of next week.16:52
slangasek9dyfet: thanks)16:52
apwYou called out two bugs for the kernel:16:53
slangasekwhat's am51?  different than imx51?16:53
apwtypeo ... amx5116:53
apwimx51 jez16:53
dyfetimx51? :)16:53
apwlp#359338: apparmour and ecryptfs -- there is a workaround, but its not satisfactory.  No plan currently, need to review this jjohansen16:54
apwlp#357768: inconsistent NETFILTER configuration -- this has been fixed already and the change is in the 2.6.30-9.10 upload which was pushed up today, i've already updated the bug to reflect reality16:54
slangasekgreat!16:54
jjohansenapw: Karmic AppArmor won't have a problem with ecryptfs16:55
jdstrand\o/16:55
apwexcellent news, could you update the bug with that information16:55
jjohansenapw: yeah16:56
slangasekhow soon will .31 show up in karmic?16:56
apwwell the merge window only opened yesterday, so two weeks before an -rc116:56
apwif it goes to -rc9 we should have a released kernel about 3 weeks before beta by my calculations16:57
slangasekbut we'll be switched over in karmic soon after rc1?16:57
apwwe are committed to .31 and will rebase to -rc1 as soon as it drops.  it will take a little longer as -rc1 is a monster16:57
* slangasek nods16:58
apwnothing else from me16:59
slangasekanything else for apw from others?16:59
slangasekapw: thanks17:00
slangasek[TOPIC] Server team17:00
MootBotNew Topic:  Server team17:00
slangasekttx: heya17:00
ttxslangasek: hey!17:00
ttxSo looking at the lists, there sin't so much bugs in the lists for us17:00
pittiapw: yay for rc1 early17:00
ttxWe already talked about bug 36461617:01
ubottuLaunchpad bug 364616 in ubuntu-release-notes "Wrong iscsistart path in iscsi hook" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/36461617:01
ttxFor bug 326768 I just got a status update from mathiaz17:01
ubottuLaunchpad bug 326768 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "mysqld_safe thinks mysqld has crashed when it hasn't" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/32676817:01
ttxFix was uploaded for Jaunty but not yet in Karmic17:01
ttxApparently it might not make sense in the context of moving MySQl 5.1 to main17:02
slangasekmight not make sense, or might not be a priority?17:02
ttxHe needs to get some input from the debian maintainer17:02
ttxmight not make sense.17:03
slangasekok17:03
ttxthere is a comment about how the Jaunty fix is not good at the end of that bug17:03
ttxmathiaz still needs to doublecheck that.17:03
slangasekalright17:03
ttxOn the new features front...17:03
ttxSpecs are currently being reviewed and prioritized17:04
ttxMost of them are linked to upstream work-in-progress (Eucalyptus 1.6, Likewise-Open 5.2...)17:04
ttxso we expect them to hit later rather than sooner17:04
ttx3 specs are being targeted to alpha317:05
slangasekin before feature freeze?17:05
ttxslangasek: sure :)17:05
ttxaccording to Dustin server-karmic-pristine-daily-virt-builds is basically done17:06
ttxserver-karmic-kvm-qemu-packaging  should be doable17:06
kirklandttx: https://edge.launchpad.net/~qemu/+archive/ppa17:06
kirklandttx: daily builds of qemu and libvirt17:06
ttxserver-karmic-automated-kvm-testing hasn't started17:06
ttxkirkland is confident on 2/317:07
ttxslangasek: which brings the question... how accurate should this blueprint targeting be ?17:07
ttxslangasek: things we are reasonably sure to land ? Or that we hope to land ?17:07
slangasekttx: well, targeting them to a milestone makes them fodder for discussion at the release meetings, which is good... they can always be retargeted if necessary17:08
ttxslangasek: then we are good :)17:08
slangasekplenty of blueprints don't get milestone targets at all17:08
ttxNothing else from server side...17:09
slangasekttx: no other bugs that you think should be escalated/tracked from your end?17:09
ttxslangasek: nothing yet.17:10
slangasekI find the server team keeps a low profile when it comes to RC bugs, and I'm never sure if that means the software is bug free or if y'all are just hiding your bugs. ;)17:10
slangasekanyone else have questions for ttx?17:10
slangasek[TOPIC] MOTU17:11
MootBotNew Topic:  MOTU17:11
slangasekScottK also sends his regrets, which I only noticed after the meeting had started17:11
slangasekI haven't had a chance to catch up with him until now, but I'll follow up out-of-band17:12
slangasek[TOPIC] Known regressions17:13
MootBotNew Topic:  Known regressions17:13
slangasekthis is your weekly Public Service Announcement requesting you use the regression-potential tag17:13
slangaseknow easier than ever to add in LP :)17:13
slangasek[TOPIC] ISO size17:13
MootBotNew Topic:  ISO size17:13
slangasekwe should be winning back some CD size soon, at least on alternates, due to OOo-l10n refactoring17:14
slangasekso that should be good17:14
slangasekwe're pretty much langpack-less for alpha-2, however, due to sizing17:14
slangasekso this will need a concerted effort over the course of the cycle to get us back down17:15
ttxslangasek: note that we'll have to start playing games with the Server CD as well, if we want Eucalyptus java dependencies to fit in.17:15
ttxthat's the purpose of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-karmic-eucalyptus-fit-on-cd17:15
slangasekI know there are some pending rosetta improvements that may help here, but as usual if anyone has any ideas for targets, please shout17:15
slangasekttx: how much space do you need to find?17:15
ttxslangasek: if I manage to keep the full JDK and JRE out of the CD we are good.17:16
=== rickspencer3 is now known as rickspencer3-afk
slangasekok :)17:16
ttxslangasek: if not then we are like +40Mb above17:16
* slangasek nods17:16
pittislangasek: there's still some hope that we can get the soyuz support for stripping gnome help files and putting them into langpacks17:17
slangasekpitti: right, that's actually what I meant by "rosetta" above17:17
pittiaah17:17
pittiand cjwatson has some great ideas how to refactor the language-support-* stuff17:17
slangasekapparently I was thinking of the wrong component :)17:18
pittiif we could get gimp-help-* off the CD, that woudl give us 20 MB17:18
slangasekis that actually something we want to do?17:18
pittigimp is next on the "first against the wall" list17:18
slangasekah17:18
pittibut with current l-support we'd still have the English help files by default17:18
pittiso it'd only give us 6 MB17:19
* heno always uses web-based help for gimp17:19
pittiwith the task-based language-support structure we'd get 2617:19
pittiheno: that's another option we took into consideration17:19
pittisee this week's desktop team meeting summary17:19
pittislangasek: so in summary, we still have some options up our sleeve17:19
pittiI don't want to release karmic without any langpacks at all17:19
slangasekindeed17:20
slangasekso we'll keep hammering at it17:20
slangasekpitti: btw, are translations open for karmic yet?17:20
pittino, unfortuantely not17:20
slangasekhave you heard an ETA?17:20
pittirosetta is currently in sort of hibernation17:20
pittifor sorting out the shared messaging stuff17:20
pittiboth jaunty and karmic are on ice right now17:20
slangasekI remember "June"; I'd have to check my notes to see if we were given anything more exact17:21
pittislangasek: I just know "june"17:21
pittiit was supposed to work already, but it broke the firefox translations17:21
ttxslangasek: got to go now17:21
pittiso I'm not sure there's a precise ETA right now17:21
slangasekttx: ok, thanks17:21
pittislangasek: I'll ask danilo17:21
slangasek[ACTION] pitti to follow up with danilo regarding ETA of translation opening for karmic17:22
MootBotACTION received:  pitti to follow up with danilo regarding ETA of translation opening for karmic17:22
slangasek[TOPIC] AOB17:22
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB17:22
slangasekanything else we need to get out?  floor's open17:22
pittibeer for slangasek for a successful alpha-2!17:22
slangasekheh :)17:23
slangasek#endmeeting17:23
MootBotMeeting finished at 11:23.17:23
slangasekthanks, all :)17:23
apwslangasek, thanks :)17:24
pittithanks all17:25
loolslangasek: heya; just a quick note that imx51 is expected broken until we merge updated patches; that's currently targetted at A3 according to Brad; probably th eonly flavor we'll look into for armel will be versatile's netboot images for now, all the others should be dropped as the toolchain doesn't allow them anymore17:43
slangaseklool: ok17:43
loolslangasek: We will also add flavors in the next alphas, one I think17:43
slangaseklool: does the new flavor have a name yet, and will you relay this to stgraber so we get it on the iso tracker in advance?17:44
loolIt's not clear when the kernel drops will appear, so I can't tell which alpha17:44
loolslangasek: I should relay to stgraber; the name is still undecided yet17:44
=== olujicz_ is now known as olujicz
=== mikrox is now known as mikro
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=== mc44_ is now known as mc44

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