[00:00] <robert_ancell> TheMuso: I agree, not my thing really
[00:00] <TheMuso> Ok. How does one officially claim a package, since I am new to the team in terms of process?
[00:01] <robert_ancell> TheMuso: There is not process at the moment.  Just open a bug for the update, then make the changes
[00:01] <seb128> there is no "official claiming"
[00:02] <seb128> we tend to know who do upgrades usually and let things continue this way
[00:02] <seb128> so feel free to do the update
[00:03] <TheMuso> Ok I'll take care of it then.
[00:03] <robert_ancell> soc1: but the patch is simpler, see debian/gconf-defaults e.g. in totem
[00:05] <soc1> ah thanks, ok
[00:29] <soc1> robert_ancell: mhh ok, totem-common.gconf-defaults ...
[00:29] <soc1> but i guess i need to edit the scheme ... because i don't want to change a particular panel, but every panel which will ever be generated
[00:31] <robert_ancell> soc1: Don't you want to set the default value of the gconf key? So all users who have not chosen a preference will get the ones you want
[00:32] <robert_ancell> soc1: setting gconf-defaults will modify the schema defaults as it is installed
[00:38] <soc1> ah ok
[00:38] <soc1> thanks
[00:40] <soc1>  /schemas/apps/panel/global/panel_show_delay 0 should do it, right?
[00:47] <TheMuso> Whats the usual procedure for updating the autoconf stuff when configure.ac is patched? Is it a matter of installing gnome-common, and running autogen.sh, and turning the resulting autoconf file changes into a patch?
[00:51] <TheMuso> robert_ancell: ^^ are you able to answer my query, given what you've done so far? This is what I would normally do, but I am wondering whether the desktop team has a different procedure.
[00:52] <robert_ancell> TheMuso: Seb showed me to run "autoreconf" and if that doesn't work run "gnome-autogen.sh".  But either is fine as long as it builds
[00:52] <robert_ancell> soc1: Yes
[00:53] <TheMuso> robert_ancell: Ok that helps, thanks.
[07:02] <pitti> Good morning
[07:28] <didrocks> hey robert_ancell!
[07:28] <didrocks> (congrats for releasing gcalctool :D)
[07:29] <pitti> hey didrocks
[07:29] <pitti> robert_ancell: good morning
[07:29] <robert_ancell> pitti: hey, up early!
[07:29] <pitti> robert_ancell: not really, 8:30 here
[07:30] <robert_ancell> didrocks: It was really broken too.  I'm just glad I got it together enough to make a working release!
[07:30] <robert_ancell> pitti: as I said, early :O)
[07:30] <pitti> I'm already here for half an hour :)
[07:30] <didrocks> hi pitti ;)
[07:30] <didrocks> robert_ancell: pitti is watching you ^^
[07:31] <robert_ancell> didrocks: I was wondering who installed the webcam in the corner of my office...
[07:31] <didrocks> robert_ancell: :)
[07:31] <didrocks> robert_ancell: did you update/worked on brasero (and gnome-games?)
[07:32] <robert_ancell> didrocks: not yet, been working on compiz and plan to do some packaging now.  Feel free to do any you want...
[07:33] <didrocks> ok, will begin with brasero. Then, gnome-games if I have some time
[07:36]  * didrocks needs to take a bzr backport as I can't pull from my intrepid server because of repostiroy format...
[08:04] <Amaranth> seb128 is going to kill me
[08:05] <Amaranth> I'm going through paper cut bugs and most of the ones that don't have a package assigned seem to be for either nautilus, gtk+2.0, or gnome-control-center :P
[08:08] <Amaranth> the ux and design teams are getting spammed too :P
[08:18] <didrocks> I'm doing cheese :)
[08:21] <didrocks> robert_ancell: 2.27.2-0ubuntu2 has never been released (you didn't ask for sponsorship). I include it with the new version and upload to universe
[08:21] <didrocks> robert_ancell: btw in changelog: "Fix enviornments typo" <- this is collector :)
[08:22] <robert_ancell> didrocks: collector?
[08:24] <didrocks> robert_ancell: at first glance, I was thinking your wrongly typoed "environment" in changelog but indeed, you was just quoting the typo :)
[08:25] <robert_ancell> didrocks: :)
[08:30] <robert_ancell> didrocks: I'm trying to update the autoreconf patch for evince but running autoreconf is making it huge! how did you make your patch so small?
[08:30] <seb128> hello everybody
[08:30] <robert_ancell> seb128: hi seb
[08:31] <seb128> robert_ancell, evince only requires autoconf
[08:31] <robert_ancell> seb128: how do you know that?
[08:31] <seb128> because only the configure.ac changed
[08:31] <pitti> hey seb128, bonjour
[08:31] <seb128> you need autoreconf when you have changes to makefile.aml for example
[08:31] <seb128> hello pitti
[08:31] <robert_ancell> seb128: ah, i see
[08:31] <seb128> configure update -> autoconf
[08:32] <seb128> that's what we do for most of the launchpad integration changes
[08:32] <robert_ancell> a lot of my patches will be too big...
[08:32] <pitti> IANAAG, but doesn't that sometimes also require aclocal?
[08:32] <seb128> pitti, dunno, I'm running autoconf only for years and it's working
[08:32] <pitti> okay
[08:32] <seb128> pitti, could be technically wrong but that does the job
[08:32] <pitti> well, it should complain/fail if it wants aclocal, anyway
[08:33] <seb128> well usually launchpad integration changes are "launchpad-integration" added to a pkg-config line
[08:33] <pitti> robert_ancell: just make sure to rm -r autom4te.cache/, then it should be okay
[08:33] <seb128> so it's nothing to do with aclocal
[08:33] <robert_ancell> pitti: What is in the cache? I delete that out of the resultant patch file
[08:34] <pitti> robert_ancell: you can do that as well, I just find it easier to rm before I create the patch
[08:34] <robert_ancell> sure
[08:34] <pitti> robert_ancell: it speeds up subsequent auto* runs, but these are huge, and by and large just junk
[08:34]  * robert_ancell doesn't believe there is such a thing as an autoconf guru.  Autoconf is where skynet will come from
[08:34] <seb128> what is in the cache? cache informations, nothing useful for the package to build
[08:35] <pitti> robert_ancell++
[08:35] <pitti> make hazard
[08:35] <seb128> Keybuk is the closer of an autotools guru we have around
[08:40] <didrocks> hey seb128!
[08:40] <seb128> lut didrocks
[08:42]  * seb128 sponsors gcalctool
[08:43] <didrocks> oh brasero is really well integrated with nautilus now
[08:43] <didrocks> seb128: and you didn't sponsored gtkhtml3.14? /me is sad ;)
[08:43] <seb128> didrocks, it's in junk, I only sponsor things on proper components ;-)
[08:44] <didrocks> seb128: :p
[08:44] <seb128> any reason you let it in junk?
[08:44] <seb128> you apparently registered the product
[08:44] <didrocks> seb128: yes, just forgot to push it again :)
[08:44] <didrocks> doing it now
[08:44] <seb128> joke aside if we push it to the ubuntu-desktop bzr would be better to use the right product no?
[08:44] <seb128> thanks
[08:44] <pitti> seb128: it even has to
[08:45] <pitti> there's no +junk for teams, just for individuals
[08:45] <seb128> pitti, there is
[08:45] <pitti> oh, I was told there isn't
[08:45] <pitti> maybe they changed that recently
[08:45] <seb128> pitti, I push versions to ubuntu-desktop/+junk/versions yesterday
[08:45]  * pitti STFU
[08:45] <seb128> I push*ed* versions
[08:45] <seb128> and some people looked at it so apparently that worked
[08:46] <robert_ancell> updating file-roller...
[08:47]  * seb128 reviews gcalctool, gtkhtml, file-roller
[08:47] <robert_ancell> seb128: no-one has done file-roller afaik, I'm about to start
[08:48] <seb128> ah ok
[08:48] <seb128> I though you were uploading it for review
[08:49] <robert_ancell> seb128: do you use bzr for file-roller? it has a bzr link but it doesn't to clone
[08:49] <seb128> I think I planned too by launchpad sucks
[08:49] <robert_ancell> want to clone
[08:50] <chrisccoulson> good morning everyone
[08:50] <seb128> there is no "file-roller" product
[08:50] <seb128> the product is named "fileroller"
[08:50] <chrisccoulson> would anyone object if i took the gnome-terminal and vte updates?
[08:50] <seb128> so I'm not sure if I pushed to "fileroller" and just delayed to get the product renamed and forgot
[08:50] <robert_ancell> seb128: ok, i'll have a look
[08:50] <seb128> chrisccoulson, hey, not at all, they are yours
[08:50] <seb128> robert_ancell, thanks
[08:50] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - thanks
[08:51] <chrisccoulson> i notice gnome-screensaver is out of date too, but vaguely remember you discussing an issue with that last cycle. is that the case, or is it ok to update too?
[08:52] <seb128> there is 2.26 in bzr
[08:52] <seb128> we still didn't resolve this "screen will not unlock after upgrade"
[08:52] <didrocks> yes, I will update it an see if the issue still exists...
[08:52] <seb128> but apparently nobody is going to work on that until we got bitten
[08:52] <seb128> so I'm leaning toward uploading now
[08:53] <chrisccoulson> i thought it was something like that. i'll try and take a look at that when i get the chance if the issue still exists
[08:53] <seb128> didrocks, would be nice to do the 2.27 update ;-)
[08:53] <didrocks> seb128: ok. I'm finishing brasero, uploading cheese and then work on this one :)
[08:56] <didrocks> brasero done
[08:56] <didrocks> testing cheese
[08:56] <seb128> gcalctool uploaded
[08:56] <seb128> reviewing gtkhtml
[08:56] <didrocks> it seems that #ubuntu-destkop is owned by bots :)
[08:57] <seb128> lol
[09:02] <robert_ancell> I've requested fileroller to be renamed to file-roller
[09:03] <seb128> reviewing evince
[09:03] <seb128> robert_ancell, thanks
[09:04] <seb128> brb
[09:17] <didrocks> cheese uploaded, working on gnome-screensaver
[09:17]  * seb128 reviews cheese
[09:18] <didrocks> seb128: hum, cheese is in universe
[09:18] <seb128> didrocks, have you looked at the typo fix sponsoring request for cheese?
[09:18] <didrocks> seb128: yes, I have included it in this update
[09:18] <seb128> ok, feel free to upload then
[09:18] <seb128> since it's in universe and you can do that ;-)
[09:19] <didrocks> that's what I have done already. I must confess ^^
[09:19] <seb128> excellent!
[09:19] <didrocks> that's a way to see if I have still universe access :)
[09:19] <seb128> soon archive reorganisation
[09:20] <didrocks> for permission, at the end of the release, isn't?
[09:20] <seb128> during the cycle was my understanding
[09:20] <seb128> but I might be wrong I didn't follow the details
[09:21] <didrocks> yes, near the end of the cycle IIRC for step 1
[09:22] <seb128> ok, I just noted that it was for this cycle
[09:22] <seb128> I don't care too much since I've upload rights everywhere
[09:22] <didrocks> of course :)
[09:22] <seb128> but it will be good for your guys, you will be able to upload your desktop upgrades ;-)
[09:23] <seb128> robert_ancell, put gnome-games on your todolist for tomorrow if you didn't yet, maybe open a bug to "register" it ;-)
[09:23] <didrocks> yes :-) I saw some people still asks for core-dev, not sure if I should in some monthes (maybe even after archive reorg), if I still upload some server packages... well, will see :)
[09:24] <robert_ancell> didrocks: were you going to do gnome-games? If not I'll do it tomorrow
[09:25] <didrocks> robert_ancell: I had this in my plan. But as there is gnome-screensaver now, I'm delaying it :-) Feel free to do it ;)
[09:25] <robert_ancell> didrocks: that may take some time, ok I claim it then
[09:27] <robert_ancell> seb128: do you know how debian/file-roller.mime was generated?  I need to add some more entries
[09:28] <seb128> robert_ancell, I would say "by hand"
[09:28] <robert_ancell> seb128: :)
[09:29] <seb128> just copy the current lines and replace the mimetype and command
[09:30] <robert_ancell> seb128: I'm trying to work out if they have an executable to test for
[09:44] <didrocks> seb128: the issue is still present
[09:44] <didrocks> (for gnome-screensaver)
[09:44] <seb128> didrocks, not surprised ...
[09:45] <didrocks> we never know :-) Well, no good traces to debug the issue :/
[09:51] <didrocks> seb128: do you think it worthes to dedicate some time to fix it this week-end?
[09:51] <didrocks> or wait for upstream or upload it...
[09:51] <seb128> didrocks, I would say "upload"
[09:52] <seb128> nobody is going to work on it until it's annoying enough
[09:52] <didrocks> seb128: ok, I'm finishing the package so... will see user's returns.
[10:02] <robert_ancell> I'm loving http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/versions.html, so much easier to see where we are behind!
[10:06] <chrisccoulson> lol @ bug 387715
[10:06] <chrisccoulson> some bug reports are quite entertaining
[10:06] <james_w> heh
[10:06] <crevette> :)
[10:07] <didrocks> seiflotfy1: gnome-screensaver is ready, though (and there is a bug with lp inline editor if you click on update description then :))
[10:07] <didrocks> hey james_w, crevette ;)
[10:07] <seiflotfy1> uhm didrocks wrong person?
[10:07] <james_w> hey didrocks
[10:07] <crevette> hey didrocks
[10:07] <didrocks> seiflotfy1: sorry, yes, it was intented to seb128, autocompletion rules ^^
[10:11] <robert_ancell> bye all
[10:16] <crevette> did someon experienced some black flash on the display recently, I seen such flashes while on battery
[10:19] <soc> hi
[10:20] <soc> about https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/387518
[10:26] <soc> i found the values i want to change in both panel-global.schemas.in (where they are marked deprecated) and in panel-toplevel.c (as #defines)
[10:26] <soc> wheere is the right place to change it now?
[10:35] <didrocks> seb128: (between two flickerings :)) gnome-screensaver is ready, though (and there is a bug with lp inline editor if you click on update description then :))
[10:35] <seb128> re
[10:35] <seb128> didrocks: should be back stable now, got some karmic and wireless issues
[10:36] <didrocks> seb128: hum, you told some days ago that karmic was giving you a hard time? Do you think I must upgrade at this point or wait a little bit?
[10:36] <seb128> not so sure
[10:36] <seb128> I'm not quite happy about the intel driver on my laptop
[10:36] <seb128> but my ati desktop works correctly
[10:37] <didrocks> seb128: ok... I have a nvidia one. Might worth a try...
[10:37] <seb128> well it's not too bad
[10:38] <seb128> it's just that when you walk away and come back on intel your screen might not turn on again until reboot
[10:38] <maxb> my i915 seems happy
[10:38] <pitti_> seb128: the most recent kernel enabled KMS on radeon, does that work for you?
[10:38] <seb128> and that after some hours xorg and compiz eat some gigabytes or ram
[10:38] <seb128> of ram rather
[10:38] <didrocks> seb128: hum, that doesn't sound good :/
[10:39] <seb128> I expect those to be intel issues though
[10:39] <seb128> my desktop has no such issues
[10:39] <didrocks> ok. I will try to have some time to upgrade my laptop
[10:49] <seb128> didrocks: I guess you tested gnome-screensaver? ;-)
[10:52] <didrocks> seb128: screen locking and screensaver launch yes (without hw acceleration)
[10:55] <didrocks> I'm uploading hamster-applet before lunch
[10:55] <seb128> ok good
[10:55] <seb128> I'm uploading gnome-screensaver ;-)
[10:55] <didrocks> thanks seb128 :-)
[10:56] <rodrigo_> so, are there step by step instructions on how to submit new packages/new versions of existing packages?
[10:56] <rodrigo_> I've tried using dput on my PPA and had some problems
[10:57] <rodrigo_> about missing files, which are supposed to be in the tarball and files I dput'ed
[10:58] <seb128> how did you build the package you wanted to upload?
[10:58] <seb128> basically go to the source
[10:58] <seb128> and run "debuild -S -sa"
[10:59] <seb128> what error do you get? what version did you use?
[10:59] <rodrigo_> yeah, did that, even built it locally fine, but then dput'ed it, and there are errors always: https://launchpad.net/~rodrigo-moya/+archive/ppa
[11:00] <seb128> ok
[11:00] <seb128> so the upload is not the issue
[11:00] <seb128> but it doesn't build?
[11:00]  * seb128 looks at the build log
[11:01] <crevette> do you have a debian/ folder before doing the debuild ?
[11:01] <rodrigo_> yes
[11:01] <seb128> urg
[11:01] <rodrigo_> it builds fine locally, as I said
[11:01] <rodrigo_> and then dput my-ppa ..source.changes
[11:02] <seb128> rodrigo_: that is a hackish package
[11:02] <seb128> lecon one, you need an orig.tar.gz
[11:02] <crevette> rodrigo_, what is the content of the diff.gz ?
[11:02] <seb128> ie the upstream tarball named tomboy_0.15.1.orig.tar.gz
[11:02] <seb128> so it will put the debian changes in the diff.gz
[11:02] <rodrigo_> seb128: ok
[11:02] <seb128> and you can see easily what you changed
[11:02] <Laney> NOOOOOOOOOOOO
[11:03] <seb128> Laney: ?
[11:03]  * Laney dives in front of the bullet
[11:03] <Laney> I mean, if someone's doing Tomboy, don't
[11:03] <rodrigo_> seb128: I got the tomboy sources via apt-get source, is that the correct way, or should I use something else?
[11:03] <rodrigo_> Laney: why?
[11:03] <Laney> because I already did it
[11:03] <Laney> and it's waiting to be uploaded to experimental
[11:03] <seb128> rodrigo_: that's the correct way
[11:03] <rodrigo_> Laney: I need the very latest, even will do git snapshots
[11:04] <Laney> (there is a bug that I assigned to myself)
[11:04] <rodrigo_> Laney: what version did you package?
[11:04] <Laney> 0.15.1
[11:04] <rodrigo_> Laney: ah, ok
[11:04] <Laney> we got some sexy space savings too
[11:04] <Laney> thanks to meebey
[11:04] <seb128> Laney: rodrigo is doing work on tomboy and that's a learning exercise too
[11:04] <rodrigo_> seb128: so for submitting packages for karmic, what's the process?
[11:04] <Laney> well whatever
[11:04] <Laney> but I was going to sync it soon
[11:05] <crevette> Laney, in that case rodrigo_ is targetting  jaunty apparently
[11:05] <rodrigo_> Laney: I plan to package git snapshots, so unless you really want to do it, please leave tomboy to me
[11:05] <Laney> you want to do them for karmic?
[11:05] <rodrigo_> (once I get this dput thing to work, of course :)
[11:05] <Laney> or some ppa?
[11:05] <rodrigo_> crevette: I'0m just testing on jaunty, but will do for karmic also
[11:06] <seb128> rodrigo_: there is no debian directory in your tarball
[11:06] <rodrigo_> seb128: so, any step-by-step instructions?
[11:06] <seb128> rodrigo_: wget https://edge.launchpad.net/~rodrigo-moya/+archive/ppa/+files/tomboy_0.15.1-0~ppa4.dsc https://edge.launchpad.net/~rodrigo-moya/+archive/ppa/+files/tomboy_0.15.1-0~ppa4.tar.gz
[11:06] <seb128> dpkg-source -x *.dsc
[11:06] <seb128> look to the directory
[11:06] <seb128> so upgrade in a nutshell
[11:06] <seb128>  
[11:06] <rodrigo_> hmm, ok, so having the ..orig,tar,gz will fix it?
[11:07] <seb128> apt-get source tomboy
[11:07] <seb128> wget http://download.gnome.org/sources/tomboy/0.15/tomboy-0.15.2.tar.gz
[11:07] <seb128> mv tomboy-0.15.2.tar.gz tomboy_0.15.2.orig.tar.gz
[11:07] <seb128> (or cd tomboy-ubuntu version; uupdate ../tomboy-0.15.2.tar.gz)
[11:07] <seb128> tar xzf tomboy_0.15.2.orig.tar.gz
[11:07] <seb128> cp -R tomboy-ubuntu/debian tomboy-0.15.2
[11:07] <seb128> cd tomboy-0.15.2
[11:07] <seb128> debuild
[11:07] <seb128> ups
[11:08] <seb128> dch -v 0.15.2-0ubuntu1~rodrigo
[11:08] <seb128> before the debuild
[11:08] <seb128> you might also need to update some patches or build-depends
[11:08] <seb128> but that's the basic
[11:08] <rodrigo_> yeah, I know that part :)
[11:08] <rodrigo_> ok, great, thanks a lot :)
[11:08] <seb128> if you don't have the orig.tar.gz it will create a debian native package
[11:09] <seb128> ie all in a tarball
[11:09] <seb128> you want an upstream tarball and a diff.gz with the ubuntu changes
[11:09] <rodrigo_> I'll try with tomboy 0.15.2, so Laney, please leave that to me
[11:09] <seb128> so make sure you have the upstream tarball correctly named
[11:09] <rodrigo_> that's what dch does, right?
[11:09] <seb128> dunno what you did in your case, the debian directory seems to be a symlink
[11:09] <Laney> rodrigo_: There are some good fixes in Debian git that you probably want
[11:09] <rodrigo_> yeah, right, it is
[11:09] <seb128> that's not due to the orig.tar.gz
[11:09] <Laney> image symlinking and such like
[11:10] <Laney> saves about 3M iirc
[11:10] <rodrigo_> seb128: I was confused about where to put the sources/untar them
[11:10] <rodrigo_> seb128: and so when it builds and works correctly in my PPA, how do I submit it for karmic?
[11:10] <seb128> Laney: cdbs in ubuntu does that automagically if tomboy is using cdbs
[11:10] <seb128> rodrigo_: open a bug and subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors
[11:11] <seb128> add the diff.gz to the bug or a bzr url to your packaging
[11:11] <rodrigo_> ok
[11:11] <rodrigo_> and for new packages, the same?
[11:11] <rodrigo_> packages not existing in karmic, I mean
[11:11] <seb128> ask on #ubuntu-motu for those maybe
[11:11] <Laney> seb128: how big is it installed currently?
[11:11] <rodrigo_> seb128: ok, great, things are clearer now :)
[11:11] <seb128> I would tend to say to do the same but they are a review system named REVU
[11:12] <Laney> he also used pngquant to crush some images too
[11:12] <seb128> Laney: Installed-Size: 12820
[11:12] <seb128> Size: 3630274
[11:12] <Laney> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/t/tomboy/current/changelog
[11:12] <Laney> given, that is against 0.14
[11:12] <seb128> cool
[11:13] <rodrigo_> and last question (for now :) ), is there any way of knowing who is packaging what?
[11:13] <rodrigo_> that is, I don't want to step on Laney's toes if he's doing 0.15.1, for instance
[11:13] <Laney> I set the bug to "In Progress" on LP
[11:13] <rodrigo_> ubuntu-desktop bugs, I guess?
[11:14] <seb128> rodrigo_: open a bug saying you work on the update and use the bug for sponsoring when you are ready
[11:14] <Laney> bug 381101
[11:14] <rodrigo_> seb128: ok, cool
[11:16] <huats> morning everyone !
[11:18] <seb128> lut huats
[11:18] <huats> hey seb128 !
[11:18] <huats> how are you ?
[11:19] <seb128> good, you?
[11:19] <huats> busy I can imagine with 2.27.3
[11:19] <huats> :)
[11:19] <huats> good too
[11:19] <huats> so if you have anything to do, I am your men :)
[11:19] <seb128> that's ok, we have a great team and there is a reasonable number of tarballs
[11:19] <huats> ok
[11:20] <seb128> huats: nothing to do right now but I will ping you if somebody comes ;-)
[11:20] <huats> ok, let's do it :)
[11:20] <huats> I am around
[11:20] <huats> :)
[12:01] <didrocks> seb128: I imagine epiphany tarball, is epiphany-webkit
[12:01] <seb128> yes
[12:01] <seb128> and it's on sync with debian so don't touch ;-)
[12:02] <didrocks> oki :-)
[12:08] <seb128> pitti is back ;-)
[12:08] <pitti> meh, my server is back up (they repaired the VM host), but its networking is still broken
[12:08] <seb128> lunch time, bbl
[12:08] <didrocks> seb128: have a good lunch
[12:08] <seb128> thanks, you too!
[12:10] <didrocks> pitti: so bad :/ That's why I prefer to be self-hosted (appart when you have a power breakage during UDS and you can't access your server ^^): when something bad happens, it's my fault :)
[12:10] <pitti> they are usually very reliable
[12:10] <pitti> much more than I could ever do at home
[12:10]  * pitti sent a support ticket
[13:03] <soc> hi
[13:04] <soc> seb128: https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/387518 any idea how to process with that? i already attached a patch to the upstream bugzilla and i'm hoping they pick that up ...
[13:04] <seb128> Hi soc
[13:04] <seb128> wait for them to reply
[13:04] <seb128> I think that's a duplicate too
[13:05] <seb128> that has been discussed some months ago on the lists too I think
[13:05] <soc> ah ok ...
[13:07] <seb128> soc: you can try pinging vuntz when he's around, he work on gnome-panel for GNOME
[13:19] <didrocks> seb128: can I take gnome-desktop?
[13:19] <seb128> didrocks: if you do it quickly yes
[13:20] <seb128> didrocks: gnome-settings-daemon is broken because it needs new APIs which are in this version
[13:20] <seb128> quickly = during the afternoon
[13:20] <didrocks> seb128: ok. I can do it during the afternoon, I think. The longer is the API breakage check :)
[13:21] <seb128> ;-)
[13:23] <soc> seb128: ah ok thanks
[13:24] <soc> vuntz: are you here?
[13:39] <pitti> yay
[13:40] <seb128> pitti: server back?
[13:40] <pitti> yep
[13:42] <didrocks> seb128: I have to regenerate relibtoolize. So, that comes to my question for gnome-python-desktop, what is relibtoolize and how to generate it ? (it's seems to generate Makefile.in, like autoconf...)
[13:42] <seb128> run autoreconf
[13:44] <didrocks> seb128: but in previous patch, we don't touch to Makefile.am. So, what's the use?
[13:45] <seb128> looking
[13:50] <seb128> didrocks: it's to avoid a rpath issue on amd64 apparently, I don't know enough about autotools to be sure what commands need to be ran and in which order
[13:50] <seb128> you need at least autoconf and alocal I think
[13:50] <seb128> it's easier to just run autoreconf
[13:50] <pitti> if you start using several commands, you should really just use autoreconf IMHO, to avoid breakage
[13:50] <seb128> but feel free to investigate an another way to do that
[13:50] <seb128> pitti: that's what I do but didrocks likes to understand what needs to be done theorically ;-)
[13:50] <pitti> (autoreconf -i, in particular)
[13:51] <didrocks> pitti & seb128 : I will try autoreconf first to run them in the right orders. Thanks :)
[13:51] <pitti> didrocks: you want to _understand_ autotools?
[13:51] <didrocks> seb128: you begin to understand mean :)
[13:51] <didrocks> pitti: I tried... I began a little
[13:51]  * pitti draws a cross and mutters some exorcism spell
[13:51] <didrocks> and see that's a mess ;)
[13:51] <didrocks> ahah
[13:51] <didrocks> seb128: s/mean/me
[13:52] <pitti> if you want to understand what your build system is doing, write Makefiles manually
[13:52] <pitti> :)
[13:52] <pitti> (well, actually I'm half-serious about it)
[13:53] <didrocks> pitti: will think about it... really! :)
[13:53]  * didrocks is already far far away ;)
[13:53] <soc> vuntz: *ping*
[14:00] <crevette> soc, vuntz will reply to you, don't need to ping him several times
[14:01] <Ampelbein> hi there. can i do the eog update?
[14:03] <seb128> Ampelbein: hey, yes sure
[14:09] <asac> awe: already running under full steam or still getting coffee et al;)?
[14:15]  * pitti blinks -- "firefox wifi scanner"?
[14:19] <soc> crevette: ok
[14:21] <rickspencer3> pitti: seb128: kenvandine: Riddell: bryce: asac: I forgot to send the reminder mail for the team meeting and to set up the meeting wiki page
[14:21] <rickspencer3> :(
[14:21] <pitti> hey rickspencer3
[14:22] <kenvandine> no worries
[14:22] <kenvandine> good morning rickspencer3
[14:22] <pitti> rickspencer3: reports were trickling in anyway
[14:22] <seb128> rickspencer3: hi, you still have some hours for that ;-)
[14:22] <rickspencer3> heh
[14:22] <asac> good morning
[14:22] <Riddell> I always need a ping on irc to remember the meeting anyway :)
[14:26] <awe> asac: hey... getting cofffee.  let myself signed in last nite while doing kernel builds.  ;)
[14:27] <awe> s/let/left/
[14:27] <asac> awe: thats good. ;)
[14:55] <didrocks> seb128: gnome-desktop is ready for you :) (had some issues with my pbuilder, which is why it takes longer than planned)
[14:55] <seb128> didrocks: ok thanks
[14:57] <hggdh> pitti, ping re. apport-retrace & package hooks
[14:58] <seb128> hey hggdh, you should ask your question directly ;-)
[14:58] <hggdh> heh
[14:59] <seb128> didrocks: you forgot to update the shlibs version
[14:59] <seb128> didrocks: when new apis are added the shlibs needs to be updated
[14:59] <hggdh> so there it goes: pitti, we are working on anonymising the stacktraces of Evolution (and others). Is there a way to have a package hook called from apport-retrace on the backoffice?
[14:59] <didrocks> seb128: I was thinking dh_shlibdeps was doing it
[15:00] <seb128> didrocks: look to the rules, DEB_DH_MAKESHLIBS_ARGS_libgnome-desktop-2-11 += -V 'libgnome-desktop-2-11 (>= 1:2.25.90)'
[15:00] <seb128> hum there is also still a libgnome-desktop-2-7.install in bzr
[15:02] <Mark__T> tedg: http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/panel-plugins/xfce4-indicator-plugin
[15:02] <seb128> didrocks: I'm not sure to understand your comment
[15:03] <didrocks> seb128: I was thinking that dh_makeshlibs was generating shlibs file and the dh_shlibdeps was reading it
[15:03] <pitti> there we go, "pending approval" specs down to 0
[15:03] <tedg> Mark__T: Cool.  Why does it have a dep on indicator-applet and not something like libindicate?  (or is that a bin packaging vs. source package thing)
[15:03] <pitti> hey hggdh
[15:03] <seb128> didrocks: there is no programmatic way for a build to know if symbols changed and when out of using the new .symbols format
[15:04] <pitti> hggdh: apport doesn't have a feature like this right now
[15:04] <rickspencer3> pitti: do you want specs done and the burn down charts running at the start of Thursday, or end of day Thursday?
[15:04]  * rickspencer3 is preparing meeting agenda
[15:04] <pitti> hggdh: if you need this, can you please create a bug report with the detailled intended behaviour, and we discuss it there? (please subscribe "pitti")
[15:04] <hggdh> pitti, will do, thanks
[15:04] <pitti> rickspencer3: I'm not picky about the exact time
[15:05] <pitti> rickspencer3: but half of the specs are still in drafting, so some effort is in order
[15:05] <rickspencer3> let's say the burn down chart officially starts Friday
[15:05] <pitti> admittedly I sent 2/3 of them back to drafting
[15:05] <rickspencer3> so specs done, work items pulled out eod Thursday
[15:05] <pitti> rickspencer3: Friday> fine for me
[15:06] <rickspencer3> (if they aren't *quite* ready to be "accepted" I'll look the other way, so long as the work is well enough defined for the burndown)
[15:06] <rickspencer3> sound okay?
[15:07] <pitti> rickspencer3: *nod*, work items defined is sufficient for the burndown chart
[15:07] <pitti> but still, all the specs should be drafted by Thursday as well
[15:15] <rickspencer3> pitti: can you paste me a link to the burndown chart again :/?
[15:16] <rickspencer3> when you get moment? (want it for the meeting page)
[15:17] <pitti> http://piware.de/tmp/desktopteam-burndown-karmic.png
[15:17] <pitti> rickspencer3:
[15:17] <pitti> ^
[15:18] <rickspencer3> tx
[15:21] <cj> how's karmic coming?  should I upgrade? :)
[15:21]  * cj pokes eeejay
[15:21] <cj> how you been man?
[15:24] <didrocks> pitti: so, do you think that the ubuntu-project template for quickly shouldn't have launchpad binding?
[15:25] <pitti> didrocks: you certainly do need LP for PPAs and for your user name
[15:25] <pitti> didrocks: but I'm not convinced that it should register projects
[15:26] <didrocks> pitti: ok, so, when first releasing, we would just ask the user to give his/her lp project name?
[15:27] <didrocks> pitti: because when you first use LP, you have a lot to learn. That's why project creation would be an help (but only on release, not on project creation)
[15:28] <rickspencer3> pitti: what if you want to back up your project?
[15:28] <rickspencer3> quickly save?
[15:28] <pitti> rickspencer3: ~username/+junk/project ?
[15:28] <pitti> that's per-user namespace at least
[15:28] <pitti> didrocks: on release> right, makes sense
[15:29] <didrocks> pitti: maybe it was not clear enough in the spec that it was only on release. I thought I detailed that, talking about "dummy project"
[15:29] <pitti> didrocks: it was clear
[15:29] <rickspencer3> didrocks: are you going to be around in two hours? I was going to bring up the idea of regular quickly discussion time in our team meeting
[15:30] <pitti> didrocks: but still, once hundreds of people are using this, we'll get a flood of poorly described LP project, and I doubt that these are meant for that
[15:30] <didrocks> rickspencer3: in two hours, yes, no problem :)
[15:31] <didrocks> pitti: yes, that's risky and that's why it's just a proposal. It's somehow handy... but the flood can be a bad counter-part
[15:31] <didrocks> ok, let's talk in a couple of hours, so :)
[15:32] <pitti> didrocks: I think we should start without remote bzr, or perhaps with +junk
[15:32] <didrocks> pitti: yes, it's maybe wiser
[15:33]  * didrocks comments out his launchpad project creation code :)
[15:34] <seb128> lool: there? do you know about the 003_gdk.pc_privates change in gtk?
[15:46] <vuntz> soc: pong
[15:49] <lool> seb128: I guess
[15:50] <seb128> lool: what is it useful for? ;-)
[15:50] <lool> To reduce linked libraries IIRC
[15:52] <seb128> which ones?
[15:52] <seb128> and why don't we have a bug upstream about that?
[15:52] <seb128> brb
[15:53] <lool> seb128: It was introduced by Josselin with:
[15:53] <lool>   * 003_gdk.pc_privates.patch: generate correct Requires.private for
[15:53] <lool>     gdk-2.0.pc containing all necessary dependencies for static linking.
[15:54] <lool> As you can see, it splits GDK_PACKAGES in GDK_PACKAGES and @GDK_PRIVATE_PACKAGES@
[15:54] <lool> So that only directly needed libs are listed in Requires:, and all libs are listed in Requires.private: (used for static linking)
[15:55] <rodrigo_> seb128: at UDS there were discussions on patching g-about-me for gwibber accounts, do you know who's working on it?
[15:55] <lool> I don't know whether it's sent upstream
[15:55] <seb128> rodrigo_: no idea, ask to kenvandine
[15:55] <kenvandine> rodrigo_: me
[15:55] <lool> I know there's controversy about Requires.private upstream; it's somewhat justified, pkg-config upstream should be trying to clarify the situation, but there's no active upstream anymore
[15:55] <kenvandine> rodrigo_: haven't talked to upstream yet
[15:56] <kenvandine> rodrigo_: opinions?
[15:56] <seb128> lool: ok, I fail to update that to 2.17.2 configure changes since I don't understand the logic, could you have a look?
[15:56] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: I am upstream, so talk to me :)
[15:56] <kenvandine> hehe
[15:56] <kenvandine> planned to
[15:56] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: well, I think it's a good idea to have a central place for accounts, so yeah
[15:56] <lool> seb128: I have a meeting in a couple of minutes, but I could have a look afterwards
[15:56] <kenvandine> everyone in the session agreed about-me was likely the best place
[15:57] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: yes, seems so, specially to make it useful, since right now it's mostly useless
[15:57] <seb128> lool: thanks
[15:57] <kenvandine> rodrigo_: so i was thinking adding a "Social networks" tab, and only display that if gwibber was there
[15:57] <kenvandine> rodrigo_: the design team also plans to look at that UI
[15:57] <kenvandine> and make suggestions
[15:57] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: I'd like, in the long term, to have any kind of accounts (mail, google, etc)
[15:57] <kenvandine> rodrigo_: that would be very cool
[15:57] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: have you started working on it?
[15:57] <kenvandine> nope
[15:58] <kenvandine> rodrigo_: it would be GREAT if you did it :)
[15:58] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: ah, yes, I guess I can, dobey is also looking at something similar
[15:58] <kenvandine> rodrigo_: gwibber's config is being split out into a dbus service
[15:58] <kenvandine> so there will be an API to configure it
[15:58] <rodrigo_> ah, cool
[15:59] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: can't it just read a gconf key set up by g-about-me?
[15:59] <kenvandine> in fact, i think he has finished that
[15:59] <kenvandine> perhaps
[15:59] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: ok then, will be back to you soon, as soon as I finish a couple of things I need to finish
[16:00] <kenvandine> sure
[16:00] <kenvandine> rodrigo_: thx!
[16:00] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: and another question, I've been told to add a couple of blueprints for new packages needed for u1 for karmic, so where should I create those blueprints?
[16:02] <kenvandine> http://blueprints.launchpad.net
[16:02] <dobey> hola
[16:02] <kenvandine> yo dobey
[16:02]  * dobey wonders what he should look at
[16:03] <kenvandine> dobey: you worry about the u1 stuff we need for now :)
[16:03] <kenvandine> but we were talking about gnome-about-me/gwibber
[16:03] <rodrigo_> dobey: scroll back my conversation with kenvandine
[16:03] <kenvandine> rodrigo_ was volunteering you for work ;-D
[16:03] <rodrigo_> :D
[16:04] <kenvandine> fun work of course
[16:04] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: what project should I set for the blueprint? ubuntu?
[16:04] <kenvandine> depends on what you are doing
[16:04] <kenvandine> most likely yes
[16:05] <rodrigo_> it's for new packages for karmic
[16:06] <dobey> oh
[16:07] <dobey> so the gnome-about-me ui is really complicated (probably because it's just the evolution address book contact editor UI, with an additional button to change the password)
[16:07] <dobey> hrmm
[16:07] <rodrigo_> yes, that's why it's mostly useless
[16:07] <dobey> yeah
[16:07] <rodrigo_> only changing the password is the only thing that makes it useful
[16:09] <crevette> rodrigo_, no it can enroll your fingerprint
[16:09] <crevette> +also
[16:09] <rodrigo_> right, that's new also
[16:09] <crevette> it needs fprintd which is not package in ubuntu
[16:09] <dobey> that's just a different metric for 'password' :)
[16:24] <rodrigo_> Laney: where can I get your tomboy 0.15.1 submission?
[16:24] <rodrigo_> Laney: the source package, that is
[16:26] <Laney> rodrigo_: I updated it to 0.15.2 earlier actually
[16:26] <Laney> rodrigo_: It's in the git repository that you'll find linked from the PTS page
[16:26] <Laney> branches master-devel and upstream-devel specifically
[16:32] <Riddell> rickspencer3: what time is the meeting these days?
[16:32] <rickspencer3> Riddell: it's in 58 minutes
[16:33] <Riddell> ok
[16:36] <seb128> didrocks: gnome-desktop uploaded and fixes xrandr thanks
[16:36] <didrocks> seb128: y/w :)
[16:36] <seb128> didrocks: we are good on updates now ;-)
[16:37] <didrocks> seb128: yes, this time, GNOME people don't release enough tarball to beat us! :)
[16:38] <seb128> hehehe ;-)
[16:39] <didrocks> even if they try with libsoup just right now! (taking it, btw ;))
[16:40] <didrocks> seb128: oh, we are in sync with debian. So, I don't touch it :)
[16:40] <seb128> ;-)
[16:40] <pitti> https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html indeed shows a couple of desktop packages with -0ubuntu1 vs. -1, so maybe we can sync even some more
[16:41] <crevette>  didrocks libsoup 2.27.2 comiiiing
[16:41] <seb128> in most case we have diff due to launchpad integration though
[16:41] <crevette> :)
[16:41] <didrocks> crevette: you're lagguing :)
[16:41] <crevette> we know you can't refrain you to package it
[16:43] <didrocks> it was a mistake, I was looking at the wrong package, we are not in sync with debian on libsoup2.4-1. So, doing it :)
[16:44] <pitti> seb128: I meant libraries, like libwnck or pygtksourceview
[16:44] <seb128> ah right
[16:44] <seb128> the first one has probably special changes for compiz but gtksourceview should be syncable
[16:46] <Laney> rodrigo_: Did you manage to get it?
[16:49] <rodrigo_> Laney: I'm busy with other stuff, so will look for it later, so if you give me an URL that would make it easier :)
[16:49] <Laney> easily done
[16:49] <Laney> git clone git://git.debian.org/pkg-cli-apps/packages/tomboy.git
[16:49] <Laney> git branch master-devel origin/master-devel
[16:49] <Laney> git branch upstream-devel origin/upstream-devel
[16:49] <Laney> git checkout master-devel
[16:49] <Laney> git-buildpackage -S
[16:50] <rodrigo_> well, just the git clone command is enough, but thanks :)
[16:50] <Laney> might need a pristine-tar in there somewhere
[16:56] <didrocks> seb128: do we use the "libsoup" lp product or create a libsoup2{,.4} one?
[16:59] <pitti> didrocks: libsoup
[16:59] <didrocks> pitti: ok, thanks :)
[17:00] <pitti> didrocks: if we are ever concerned with libsoup3, 2 and 3 are series of that product
[17:00] <didrocks> pitti: ok, but we don't specify the serie in our bzr branch, just the product, isn't it?
[17:01] <pitti> didrocks: right
[17:01] <didrocks> pitti: thanks for the confirmation :)
[17:01] <pitti> didrocks: well, you can specify it in the branch name, of course
[17:02] <didrocks> pitti: something like ~ubuntu-desktop/libsoup/libsoup2/ubuntu, for instance?
[17:02] <soc> vuntz: sorry, now i'm here!
[17:02] <didrocks> (as LP can now handle more than "3 parts" for branches)
[17:02] <pitti> didrocks: ~u-desktop/libsoup/ubuntu-libsoup2
[17:03] <pitti> didrocks: no, what you mean are package branches
[17:03] <pitti> didrocks: project branches are unchanged (~owner/project/branchname)
[17:03] <pitti> didrocks: package branches are ~owner/ubuntu/karmic/package/branchname
[17:03] <pitti> but we shouldn't use them for our packaging-only branches for now
[17:03] <didrocks> pitti: oh, ok. didn't know there was a difference. ok, let's use /ubuntu atm, we will see if we have to rename later
[17:04] <pitti> didrocks: right, sounds like a plan
[17:04] <didrocks> pitti: right
[17:07]  * pitti yays at his first successful run of PYTHONPATH=. gtk/apport-gtk --symptom camera
[17:07] <bryce> \o/
[17:08] <pitti> hey bryce, how are you?
[17:10] <seb128> didrocks: libsoup should work
[17:12] <bryce> pitti: doing good
[17:15] <rickspencer3> desktop team meeting in 15 minutes
[17:15] <rickspencer3> pitti: very cool!
[17:16]  * pitti invokes "apport-gtk --symptom my-day-only-has-24-hours" and hopes for some solution
[17:17] <didrocks> :)
[17:17] <didrocks> pitti: share the solution if you fond one, please :)
[17:17] <didrocks> s/fond/find/
[17:18] <pitti> rickspencer3: today we got some more work items, I re-ran the collector (see http://piware.de/tmp/desktopteam-burndown-karmic.png)
[17:19] <rickspencer3> huh
[17:19] <pitti> rickspencer3: it seems to have confused pychart utterly, though, wrt. the y scale
[17:19] <rickspencer3> I noticed that
[17:19] <rickspencer3> I wonder what happend?
[17:19] <rickspencer3> in any case, the chart is still readable
[17:20] <rickspencer3> I have to say, the png's produced on your computer are less than beautiful
[17:20] <pitti> I know, I'd prefer svg
[17:20] <rickspencer3> I think it supports svg
[17:20] <rickspencer3> does it not?
[17:20] <pitti> http://piware.de/tmp/desktopteam-burndown-karmic.svg
[17:21] <pitti> rickspencer3: it does, but it's ugly as wel
[17:21] <pitti> l
[17:21] <rickspencer3> lol
[17:21] <pitti> perhaps that's just firefox, though
[17:21] <rickspencer3> what's wrong with it ;) ?
[17:22] <pitti> rickspencer3: (not sure if you are serious); does it look ok for you?
[17:22] <rickspencer3> pitti: I was joking, it looks very oddly assembled to me
[17:23] <pitti> rickspencer3: do PNGs look better on your computer?
[17:23] <rickspencer3> I'll try debugging it later
[17:23] <rickspencer3> hold on
[17:23] <rickspencer3> pitti: I'm not sure, actually
[17:24]  * pitti wonders where the --make-it-look-good option is
[17:24] <rickspencer3> I wonder why the scale is so out of whack
[17:24] <rickspencer3> one thing I can do is make the text and the line thickness a little bigger
[17:24] <rickspencer3> that should be simple formatting options
[17:25] <rickspencer3> pitti: are you passing size parameters to the script?
[17:25] <pitti> no, I don't; I thought it'd infer it automatically
[17:25] <pitti> rickspencer3: btw, I just pulled again, I'm still at rev7 (no hashbang)
[17:25] <rickspencer3> in terms of length and width of the chart, I made up some more or less aribtrary defaults
[17:26] <rickspencer3> pitti: the only change I made was adding the shebang
[17:26] <rickspencer3> pitti: perhaps you can send me your data in a csv file and I can try to debug why the scale is off?
[17:27] <pitti> rickspencer3: http://piware.de/tmp/desktop-workitems.db
[17:27] <pitti> rickspencer3: that's the actual real db
[17:27] <rickspencer3> so I have to query it with sql-lite?
[17:27]  * rickspencer3 downloaded data
[17:28] <pitti> rickspencer3: I added a title now
[17:28] <pitti> rickspencer3: should I use --height as a workaround, or does that just scale the entire image?
[17:28] <lool> seb128: I have a new version of the patch
[17:28] <rickspencer3> height is just the height of the chart, doesn't talk to the scale
[17:28] <lool> Current gdk-2.0.pc:
[17:28] <pitti> oops, yes
[17:28] <lool> Requires: gdk-pixbuf-2.0 pango pangocairo gio-2.0
[17:28] <lool> Requires.private: fontconfig x11 xext xrender xinerama xi xrandr xcursor xfixes xcomposite xdamage cairo-xlib
[17:28] <lool> New gdk-2.0.pc:
[17:29] <lool> Requires: gdk-pixbuf-2.0 pango pangocairo gio-2.0
[17:29] <lool> Requires.private: fontconfig x11 xext xrender xinerama xrandr xcursor xfixes xcomposite xdamage cairo-xlib
[17:29] <lool> This is with x11 target
[17:29] <geser> does gnome-display-properties work for somebody after yesterdays/todays updates in karmic?
[17:29] <rickspencer3> oops, time for the meeting
[17:29] <rickspencer3> in 1 min.
[17:29] <seb128> geser: yes after install libgnome-desktop-2-11 2.27
[17:30] <seb128> installing
[17:30] <lool> Current gdk-directfb-2.0.pc:
[17:30] <lool> Requires: gdk-pixbuf-2.0 pango pangocairo gio-2.0.
[17:30] <lool> Requires.private:.
[17:30]  * rickspencer3 taps gavel
[17:30] <rickspencer3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-06-16
[17:30] <lool> New gdk-directfb-2.0.pc:
[17:30] <rickspencer3> asac: may I edit the wiki page?
[17:30] <lool> Requires: gdk-pixbuf-2.0 pango pangocairo gio-2.0
[17:30] <lool> Requires.private: fontconfig cairo-directfb
[17:30] <lool> So there'sa difference here
[17:31] <rickspencer3> ArneGoetje: asac bryce kenvandine pitti Riddell tkamppeter seb128
[17:31] <rickspencer3> ready?
[17:31] <pitti> o/
[17:31] <Riddell> hi
[17:32] <kenvandine> here
[17:32] <asac> hi
[17:32] <seb128> sorry for that
[17:32] <seb128> I'm there
[17:32] <bryce> heya
[17:32]  * asac will finish activity report in wiki after meeting then
[17:32] <seb128> I was testing the gtk upgrade ;-)
[17:32] <rickspencer3> asac: thanks
[17:32] <asac> (sorry)
[17:32] <ArneGoetje> here
[17:32] <rickspencer3> asac: no apology necessary
[17:32] <rickspencer3> may I edit it now?
[17:32] <ccheney> hi
[17:33]  * rickspencer3 answers own question
[17:33] <rickspencer3> ccheney: hi!
[17:33] <rickspencer3> I was looking for calc :P
[17:33] <tkamppeter> hi
[17:33] <ccheney> rickspencer3: ah yea i changed my nick so xchat alerts could be useful :)
[17:33] <rickspencer3> hi Till ( tkamppeter )
[17:33] <rickspencer3> ccheney: thanks!
[17:33] <rickspencer3> let's go
[17:34] <ccheney> eg every reference to OOo calc in xchat alerted me, heh
[17:34] <kenvandine> hehe
[17:34] <rickspencer3> please note that I changed the meeting template
[17:34] <rickspencer3> I'm going to strive to provide a status summary to the world based on this meeting
[17:35] <rickspencer3> in terms of actions from last meeting, the only one is regarding bug assignement, and I would like to save that until a discussion near the end of the meeting
[17:35] <rickspencer3> so please review the wiki for the status of action items from last week
[17:35] <rickspencer3> so, Feature Definition Freeze
[17:36] <rickspencer3> pitti: any comments?
[17:36] <pitti> well, my current review queue is zero, and you should all have mail with my whimsical comments
[17:36] <pitti> some of them are back to drafting and need some fine-tuning
[17:36] <kenvandine> pitti: humm... you should have my social from the start in your queue again
[17:37] <pitti> kenvandine: no, it's not
[17:37] <asac> pitti: wifi is in your queue again ;)
[17:37] <kenvandine> oh... humm
[17:37] <pitti> asac: right
[17:37] <pitti> so, please try to get them at least into the first review round by Thursday
[17:37]  * kenvandine didn't see a mail
[17:37] <pitti> there are some specs which didn't go to review once yet
[17:38] <pitti> also, please add work items to your blueprints by Thursday, so that we can start making http://piware.de/tmp/desktopteam-burndown-karmic.png actually useful
[17:38] <pitti> sorry for its bad look, will tune by next week
[17:39] <rickspencer3> my expectation that the burndown chart generated on Friday morning will be useful for tracking
[17:39] <rickspencer3> so that gives you until eod Thursday to identify work items in your blue prints
[17:39] <pitti> so if you are ignoring blueprint mail and sent a spec to "pending approval", please check the status of your's on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/people/+me/+specs?role=drafter
[17:39]  * rickspencer3 whip cracking noises
[17:39] <rickspencer3> :)
[17:39] <pitti> from what I saw in the specs so far, Karmic will be a killer release!
[17:40] <rickspencer3> yeah!
[17:40] <rickspencer3> pitti: it sounds like you need:
[17:40] <pitti> so,
[17:40] <rickspencer3> (go ahead, sorry) :P
[17:40] <pitti> TODO: add work items by Thursday
[17:40] <pitti> TODO: finish spec drafting by THursday and set them to "pending approval"
[17:40] <pitti> [done]
[17:41] <rickspencer3> ok
[17:41] <rickspencer3> I would add that the specs should have gone through at least one good round of review by Thursday
[17:41] <rickspencer3> moving on ...
[17:42] <pitti> (mind that the original deadline was today..)
[17:42] <rickspencer3> right
[17:42] <rickspencer3> kenvandine ?
[17:42] <rickspencer3> partner status?
[17:42] <kenvandine> ah
[17:42] <kenvandine> my turn :)
[17:42] <rickspencer3> (thanks pitti :) )
[17:43] <kenvandine> I'll start with online services
[17:43] <kenvandine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/DesktopIntegration/Status
[17:43] <kenvandine> this is a wiki page listing features planned for ubuntuone in karmic
[17:43] <kenvandine> with acceptance criteria, still a WIP
[17:43] <rickspencer3> these are tests that you are running?
[17:44] <kenvandine> this should help us track how things are shaping up before feature freeze
[17:44] <kenvandine> yes
[17:44] <kenvandine> i expect OLS QA will run them as well
[17:44] <kenvandine> but i will track it for us
[17:45] <kenvandine> ubuntuone-client and it's deps are being prepared to go into main now as well
[17:45] <kenvandine> well universe then MIRs for main
[17:45] <kenvandine> hopefully that will go smoothly
[17:45] <pitti> nice
[17:45] <kenvandine> I want to start tracking the DX team work in a similar fashion
[17:45] <pitti> kenvandine: how many of them have automatic tests? (especially for the sync daemon)
[17:45] <kenvandine> they are doing 2 week iterations
[17:45] <kenvandine> pitti: they have unit tests
[17:46] <kenvandine> but no functional tests that are automatic
[17:46] <pitti> kenvandine: are there tests for 2 sync daemons talking to each other?
[17:46] <pitti> okay
[17:46] <kenvandine> that feature isn't done yet :)
[17:46] <rickspencer3> pitti: is that important, should it be added to the acceptance criteria?
[17:46] <pitti> it seems to me that this shouldn't be too hard to set up with some shell scripts
[17:46] <kenvandine> if it is planned by karmic, it should
[17:47] <kenvandine> pitti: sort of...
[17:47] <kenvandine> there are a few gotchas...
[17:47] <kenvandine> like the keyring... etc
[17:47] <pitti> rickspencer3: well, it'd certainly help to run the tests automatically on a daily basis and spot regressions that way
[17:47] <pitti> kenvandine: yeah, the sandboxing certainly needs some work
[17:47] <rickspencer3> pitti: that makes sense, but I was referring to the 2 sync daemon scenario
[17:47] <kenvandine> i was thinking VMs
[17:47] <pitti> kenvandine: not saying that it's easy, just that it would be great to have
[17:47] <kenvandine> :)
[17:48] <kenvandine> pitti: agreed
[17:48] <rickspencer3> well ... the first step of automation is often to define the tests
[17:48] <kenvandine> i will check to see if they have committed to the peer syncing by karmic
[17:48] <pitti> kenvandine: I thought peer syncing was the first and major goal?
[17:48] <kenvandine> last i heard it was something they wanted, but no timeline
[17:48] <kenvandine> pitti: not sure about that... i will confirm
[17:49] <pitti> IOW, if we take away file sharing, there's not much left, is there?
[17:49] <rickspencer3> ACTION kenvandine to define priority and timing of peer syncing, add to acceptance tests if necessary
[17:49] <kenvandine> pitti: well file sharing is there... but not peer to peer
[17:49] <rickspencer3> aah
[17:49] <kenvandine> local network stuff
[17:49] <kenvandine> pitti: that is what you are talking about right?
[17:50] <pitti> kenvandine: right, thanks
[17:50] <kenvandine> i will confirm, but i don't think that was super high
[17:50] <kenvandine> they want more features and the API done
[17:50] <kenvandine> more services
[17:50] <kenvandine> afaik
[17:50] <pitti> so a test script would just use the real cloud
[17:50] <kenvandine> yes
[17:51] <pitti> which is still useful, the test suite could drive the web ui to check for success
[17:51] <kenvandine> ok, DX team now... we are hoping to get them to use the burn downs
[17:51] <kenvandine> but that is still in the works
[17:51] <pitti> kenvandine: how's the general bug situation with u1, getting better?
[17:51] <kenvandine> better
[17:52] <kenvandine> getting quieter :)
[17:52] <kenvandine> i plan to align the integration points for both the DX and OLS teams so they don't both hit us at the same time
[17:52] <kenvandine> define milestones based on that schedule
[17:53] <kenvandine> so hopefully we don't have both teams beating on my door on the same day to get stuff done
[17:53] <kenvandine> more to come on that soon
[17:53] <kenvandine> one thing for us to think about right now, is fusa/gdm
[17:53] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: what is blocking the DXE team from using burndown charts? Can we help?
[17:53] <kenvandine> they are working on the fusa changes for gdm now, and should have something in a ppa for us soon
[17:53] <rickspencer3> oh
[17:54] <kenvandine> rickspencer3: nothing as far as i know
[17:54] <kenvandine> just doing it :)
[17:54] <rickspencer3> do we need to get new GDM into karmic asap for them?
[17:54] <kenvandine> no
[17:54] <kenvandine> we need them to align, land the fusa changes at the same time
[17:54] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to ask davidbarth if the DXE team needs help setting up burndown charts
[17:54] <pitti> well, we need to get gdm-new working at all
[17:54] <pitti> and if it does, move it to karmic as well
[17:54] <pitti> s/if/once/
[17:54] <kenvandine> pitti: it almost works :)
[17:55] <rickspencer3> this sounds like an unmet dependency
[17:55] <kenvandine> but yes, it needs work still
[17:55] <pitti> independently of the DX work we need to get it in ASAP
[17:55] <rickspencer3> the new GDM is triggering the FUSA work, right?
[17:55] <kenvandine> yes
[17:55] <pitti> since a lot of other things (artwork, boot speed, etc.) depend on this
[17:55] <kenvandine> it works well enough for them to do what they are doing
[17:55] <kenvandine> pitti: agreed
[17:55] <kenvandine> seb128: have you looked at that lately?
[17:56] <seb128> kenvandine: no
[17:56] <kenvandine> ted should have fusa changes (proof of concept) code done the end of this week
[17:56] <kenvandine> which can be built into the ppa
[17:56] <seb128> good
[17:56] <kenvandine> and hopefully the end of the next 2 week iteration be ready for karmic
[17:56] <kenvandine> so we should plan to have gdm ready the same time
[17:57] <rickspencer3> seb128: will that align for you?
[17:57] <kenvandine> i installed it in a VM with karmic and it worked after a reboot, restarting the service didn't do it
[17:57] <kenvandine> but it fails like ever 3 boots :/
[17:57] <kenvandine> which is weird
[17:57] <seb128> rickspencer3: yes, the new gdm is mostly ready, I still have an upgrade issue to debug but it's almost good to upload
[17:57] <kenvandine> i think both ted and kwwii is running it on jaunty
[17:57] <seb128> it's in the ubuntu-desktop karmic ppa now
[17:58] <rickspencer3> seb128: ack ... and thanks
[17:58] <kenvandine> i think that is all i have right now
[17:58] <rickspencer3> thanks kenvandine
[17:58] <rickspencer3> Riddell: Kubuntu?
[17:58] <Riddell> Kubuntu Status
[17:58] <Riddell> All specs approved
[17:58] <Riddell> Work items from specs are tracked here https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo/Karmic
[17:59] <Riddell> KDE 4.3 Beta 2 is in and working well
[17:59] <Riddell> Main inclusion reviews needed for arora, kopete-facebook, qjson, enca
[17:59] <Riddell> Big win of the week is elite Kubuntu developer Roman Shtylman had his OpenOffice KDE 4 patches merged http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/ooo-build/2009-June/000036.html  http://shtylman.com/stuff/oo/oo_new.png
[17:59] <Riddell> Big win two, elite Kubuntu developer Yuriy has made an Oxygen icons theme for OpenOffice  http://yktech.us/temp/oo-ox.png
[17:59] <Riddell> Some community handling needing done in one of our local team IRC rooms, am investigating it along with IRC council
[17:59] <Riddell> Kubuntu-DE will be joining KDE and Amarok for a stall at Linux Tag next week
[17:59] <Riddell> Elite Kubuntu developer rgreening is making good progress on the KDE port of USB Creator http://imagebin.ca/view/5E5mIe.html
[17:59] <Riddell> KDE apps Help->Report Bug now uses Apport and reports to Launchpad, hopefully our beastie triagers can forward upstream the ones which belong there
[17:59] <Riddell> end report :)
[18:00] <rickspencer3> Riddell: what's "community handling"?
[18:00] <pitti> Riddell: OOo KDE4> !!!
[18:01] <Riddell> rickspencer3: guy incharge of channel is removing admin rights any lying about it, I need to work out the right way to get him replaced
[18:01] <rickspencer3> also I have the urge to point burndown.py at your todo list :)
[18:01] <rickspencer3> too bad
[18:01] <rickspencer3> thanks for handling that
[18:01] <Riddell> ccheney: do you have any time to look at the open office oxygen stuff?
[18:02] <rickspencer3> a good example of your steady leadership of the community and product
[18:02] <Riddell> rickspencer3: I put the work items: in the spec whiteboards too, although it would be nicer not to have to update two places
[18:02] <ccheney> Riddell: not really until next week I used up my time already this week yesterday
[18:02] <rickspencer3> action: rickspencer3 to investigate slurping work item status from Kubuntu todo list
[18:02] <ccheney> Riddell: it should be fairly straightforward (i hope) may take an hour or so to do due to patching the OOo source, etc
[18:02] <Riddell> ccheney: next week is good.  but let me know if it won't happen for ages and I can try and look at it (although it'll take me longer than it would you presumably)
[18:03] <rickspencer3> don't forget that ccheney is only with us 20% time :)
[18:03] <pitti> Riddell: if every table line is one WI, I'm happy to teach workitems.py about parsing this one
[18:03] <Riddell> pitti: yes it is
[18:03] <rickspencer3> pitti: that might be good, because it would also create another option for people to track work items
[18:03] <rickspencer3> like other teams might want to copy Kubuntu, and the tools would be right there
[18:03] <pitti> seems straightforward then
[18:04] <pitti> make it an action item for me then
[18:04] <rickspencer3> ACTION: pitti to slurp work item status from Kubuntu todo list
[18:04] <rickspencer3> thanks Riddell
[18:04] <Riddell> poke MIR team about those MIRs :)
[18:04] <rickspencer3> Riddell: may I suggest that you go ahead and look at that OOo stuff if you have the time, based on ccheney's limited bandwidth for us this release?
[18:05] <rickspencer3> ACTION: MIR team to consider themselves poked regarding Kubuntu MIRs
[18:05] <rickspencer3> :)
[18:05] <asac> Riddell: feel free to assign me a few
[18:05] <Riddell> will do
[18:05] <ccheney> Riddell: i can point out what you need to do to make it work
[18:06] <rickspencer3> Riddell: good job, Kubuntu seems off to another great start
[18:06] <Riddell> ccheney: that would be useful
[18:06] <rickspencer3> move on?
[18:06] <rickspencer3> What was the outcome of the discussion on assigned bugs?
[18:07] <seb128> we all seem to agree on how to use assignment
[18:07] <pitti> it was by and large violent agreement
[18:07] <kenvandine> :)
[18:07] <rickspencer3> raging agreement works for me
[18:07] <rickspencer3> so does anyone need help *unassigning* bugs
[18:07] <rickspencer3> asac: >
[18:07] <rickspencer3> ?
[18:08] <pitti> (that seems to be a very individual problem to me FWIW)
[18:08] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:08] <rickspencer3> it seems like if someone has a lot to unassign, it could be rather tedious
[18:09] <rickspencer3> so perhaps some teammates could lighten the load
[18:09] <asac> rickspencer3: atm i going through assignedbugs a bit day-by-day. we will see if i need help when i am done with the first round
[18:09] <pitti> rickspencer3: I wouldn't want other people to mess with my bugs TBH
[18:09] <rickspencer3> pitti: ok
[18:09] <rickspencer3> thanks pitti and asac
[18:09] <rickspencer3> moving on ...
[18:10] <rickspencer3> here's a discussion topic ...
[18:10] <rickspencer3> Is there a single or small set of indicators that could communicate our status wrt to incoming and resolving bugs?
[18:10] <pitti> we have those on a global ubuntu level from the QA team
[18:10] <rickspencer3> pitti: right
[18:10] <pitti> splitting it by team seems hard without actually triaging them all
[18:10] <rickspencer3> which are your referring to though?
[18:11] <rickspencer3> on launchpad?
[18:11] <pitti> rickspencer3: resolving bugs should be possible
[18:11] <bryce> one approach could be to have a procmail script or whatever watching the incoming bug mail flow
[18:11] <pitti> we could ask the QA team to do something like http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/jaunty-fixes-report.html for karmic, and split by team
[18:11] <bryce> both NEW bugs, and bugs closed as invalid/fixed/etc. are marked in a machine readable way
[18:12] <pitti> that would work if we define a fixed subset of pacakges to be "ours"
[18:12] <rickspencer3> bryce: hmm
[18:12] <pitti> bryce: QA team parses -changes@ for that list
[18:12] <rickspencer3> what I would like to see is a report on bugs on the product, not necessarily on the team members
[18:12] <bryce> pitti: yeah same idea basically
[18:12] <rickspencer3> pitti: right, is the lack of that list the lynch pin in this whole thing?
[18:12] <pitti> rickspencer3: list of desktop-ish packages?
[18:13] <pitti> rickspencer3: well, we could derive it from the seeds
[18:13] <rickspencer3> pitti: yes
[18:13] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:13] <pitti> "desktop" seed minus platform seed
[18:14] <rickspencer3> pitti: would you have time to work on this with me this week or next?
[18:14] <pitti> that wouldn't handle bugs which are assigned to the wrong package (of which there are a lot)
[18:14] <rickspencer3> (and whoever wants to help)?
[18:14] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[18:14] <rickspencer3> do you think that noise would invalidate the reading>
[18:14] <rickspencer3> ?
[18:14] <pitti> rickspencer3: if it's urgent, yes; I have some other urgent tasks to do, though
[18:14] <rickspencer3> not urgent, but important
[18:14] <pitti> rickspencer3: not invalidate, we should just allow a 20% error margin :)
[18:14] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:15] <pitti> but I don't know germinate very well myself
[18:15] <pitti> so we need to consult cjwatson anyway
[18:15] <rickspencer3> I think we should put this to bed for this week and focus on feature definition, but I'll bring it up again next week
[18:15] <rickspencer3> perhaps not in the meeting though
[18:15] <rickspencer3> anyone else, thoughts?
[18:15] <pitti> bryce: you have X bug stats as well, don't you?
[18:16] <asac> what kind of metric are we trying to get here? all incoming bugs vs. all fixed bugs? that sounds like a game we cannot win
[18:16] <pitti> asac: fixing them all shouldn't be the goal
[18:16] <bryce> pitti: yes that's right
[18:16] <pitti> bryce: you have a fixed list of packages? or you simply count the ones you're a package contact for, and thus receive mail anyway?
[18:16] <asac> pitti: i dont say that fixing all is the goal. just want to understand what the goal is
[18:17] <rickspencer3> asac: what I want is a measure that provides us a sense of the overall current quality, as well as a leading indicator regarding the quality when we ship
[18:17] <pitti> asac: hm, incoming bug rate isn't very good for that
[18:17] <pitti> erm, rickspencer3 ^
[18:17] <cj> how do I tell Jaunty that it's running on a laptop instead of a desktop?  I want it to know to do the power-saving, lid-closing fu
[18:17] <asac> i dont think that bugs are a good measure of quality
[18:17] <rickspencer3> pitti: interesting that you say that, why not?
[18:17] <pitti> I daresay that jaunty's quality is far better than edgy's, and yet we get more bugs
[18:17] <seb128> well, measuring how much of those bugs are read is somewhat a good metric
[18:17] <asac> at least not _all_ bugs
[18:17] <pitti> because bugs primarily correlate with #users, not #problems
[18:18] <asac> we need to narrow those down to bugs we accepted to be something that should be in a metric like this
[18:18] <bryce> asac: for X I've found it useful to understand my rate of incoming vs. rate of closed and how they compare, because if the former is too much higher than the latter, or if there is a sharp change in rate, it serves as a signal something's wrong
[18:18] <rickspencer3> seb128: not sure what you mean
[18:18] <rickspencer3> bryce: good point, it's the incoming *rate* that you measure
[18:18] <rickspencer3> like by what percentage is the list growing
[18:19] <pitti> but for the rate to be useful, you need it on a per-package level?
[18:19] <asac> bryce: so you look for serious regressions through statistics ;)? thats a good idea, but it doesnt serve the goal to understand overall quality imo.
[18:19] <pitti> (and I believe we already have that)
[18:19] <bryce> pitti: right, we take care to ensure ubuntu-x-swat is the package contact for all packages we consider to belong to X, so I can auto-snarf my package list from https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/+packagebugs
[18:20] <seb128> rickspencer3: I mean that we should not aim at triaging all the bugs in a proper way but we should at least look at most of the bugs to pick up real issues and do metric on those
[18:20] <asac> rickspencer3: problem is that growth probably is related to growth in userbase ... which we dont really know any details on
[18:20] <bryce> asac: yeah I would definitely agree #bugs is a measure of popularity, not quality
[18:21] <rickspencer3> but that seems easy to understand
[18:21] <pitti> for spotting regressions, I liked the "3-day subscription after upload" better, I think
[18:21] <rickspencer3> the goal is not to provide a perfect measure, but a sense of the overall quality and trajectory
[18:22] <bryce> quality is a bit harder to quantify...  one idea I've had is now that I'm tagging symptoms on bugs, to compare proportions of bugs with serious symptoms to ones with less serious ones.  If the proportions change, that is meaningful, separate from the overall quantity
[18:22] <rickspencer3> and I think measuring rate of growth attenuates the growing user base noise as well
[18:22] <seb128> well, we want a way to mark real issues we picked
[18:22] <pitti> rickspencer3: hm, I still think that the scaling by users and hardware far outweighs the change of "quality" in the sense of how many bugs we fix and introduce
[18:22] <seb128> and measure how good we are doing on those
[18:22] <rickspencer3> seb128: I agree
[18:23] <rickspencer3> perhaps measuring *confirmed* bugs would be better than *new*
[18:23] <seb128> I tend to measure desktop quality by number of milestoned bugs
[18:23] <pitti> measuring #regressions would be useful, though
[18:23] <rickspencer3> I know it's *hard* to quantify, but that doesn't mean we should shy away from it
[18:23] <bryce> rickspencer3: agreed
[18:23] <rickspencer3> incoming regressions would be a good measure
[18:23] <seb128> ie when we managed to scatch most of the milestoned desktop bugs that's a good sign
[18:23] <rickspencer3> hmm
[18:24] <rickspencer3> incoming milestoned bugs, interesting thought
[18:24] <rickspencer3> and easy to query for
[18:24] <asac> yes. please lets not try to do course grained overall stats. QA team should do those if they theink its important
[18:24] <asac> rather look at things that get pushed on our plate, like milestones, team assignments
[18:24] <asac> etc.
[18:24] <pitti> we could perhaps get some graphs on http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/regression/regression_tracker.html
[18:24] <rickspencer3> asac: hmmm
[18:24] <seb128> I tend to use milestones as a todo for the cycle, ie milestone all the desktop bugs I would like to get fixed for karmic
[18:24] <seb128> and watch this list
[18:24] <rickspencer3> not sure I agree
[18:25] <rickspencer3> again, I am interested in understanding the *product* not just the team workload
[18:25] <rickspencer3> asac: ^^
[18:25] <asac> rickspencer3: what product in particular?
[18:25] <asac> desktop-cd?
[18:25] <seb128> well then we need a standard way to mark that a bug affect the product quality
[18:25] <rickspencer3> bryce: do you think incoming versus resolved regressions would provide a meaningful indicator?
[18:25] <asac> or ubuntu
[18:25] <seb128> and to track the list of those issues
[18:25] <bryce> asac: Ubuntu I gather
[18:25] <rickspencer3> asac: desktop-cd more or less
[18:25] <pitti> I'm just not sure whether it makes sense to do some "desktop" subset here
[18:26] <rickspencer3> pitti: not "desktop team" if that's what you mean
[18:26] <seb128> pitti: well that's the issues our team has to work on?
[18:26] <rickspencer3> but I think "server" and "unr" are probably seperable
[18:26] <asac> i still have the feeling its a Qa team topic
[18:26] <bryce> rickspencer3: incoming vs. resolved would be a meaningful indicator.  (For X, most bugs would classify as 'regressions')
[18:26] <pitti> but foundations/kernel are affecting us as well
[18:26] <pitti> QA team topic> *nod*, at least we should include them in the discsussion
[18:27] <asac> of course we can provide suggestions and ideas and request certain things.
[18:27] <seb128> I think it's good to know where we stand
[18:27] <ccheney> OOo is on target to surpass evolution as the most upstream bugs by karmic release, it seems latelely almost all of the bugs filed are legitimate though maybe not of high enough importance to fully triage (?)
[18:28]  * ccheney isn't clear on what level of bug triage he should be doing (outside of the 20% issue at present)
[18:28] <bryce> rickspencer3: I'm a big believer that "you can't boil everything down to a single metric, without it risking being gamed".  I suggest gathering several different metrics, see what's useful, and use them to calibrate or correlate.  If quality is going up, then several different metrics should all show the same thing.
[18:28] <bryce> also, once you have a tool to gather/graph/etc. one metric, you can adapt and reuse the tool for another metric without too much trouble.
[18:28] <rickspencer3> I propose that close down this discussion now ...
[18:29] <pitti> ccheney: if you watch out for major regressions, that should be enough IMHO
[18:29] <bryce> oh, sorry
[18:29] <rickspencer3> but I feel that I can make some good progress in thinking about it given this feedback
[18:29]  * ccheney takes it offline
[18:29] <rickspencer3> bryce: that wasn't directed at you
[18:29] <rickspencer3> keep going, I'm sorry, I sensed it was drawing to a close (obviously wrong)
[18:30] <rickspencer3> now it's all socially awkward
[18:30] <rickspencer3> way to ruin the party rickspencer3
[18:30] <rickspencer3> :P
[18:30] <seb128> lol
[18:30] <bryce> rickspencer3: only last point, is I suggest using metrics only for our own education, not for measuring our individual performance, else we'll end up gaming it.
[18:30] <asac> i think we all need to think a bit and maybe do some after meeting discussions on this. its really a complex task to find metrics for quality ;)
[18:31] <rickspencer3> bryce: obsolutely
[18:31] <rickspencer3> very well put
[18:31] <rickspencer3> asac: agreed
[18:31] <pitti> or even define what we understand as "quality"
[18:31] <asac> right
[18:31] <rickspencer3> bryce: even if we don't game it, it just wouldn't be meaningful
[18:32] <seb128> pitti: well, "quality" is pretty clear, it define how well user will react to the new version
[18:32] <rickspencer3> hey all
[18:32] <bryce> don't forget we can also look *outside* launchpad for measurable indicators of quality
[18:32] <rickspencer3> bryce: ?
[18:32] <seb128> the topic seems controversial for some reason
[18:33] <seb128> but it seems something clearly defined to me
[18:33] <pitti> seb128: hm, "how well user reacts" is not really quantifyable either :)
[18:33] <rickspencer3> I'd like to give tkamppeter a moment to give us an update on printing
[18:33] <tkamppeter> For the printing all looks nice. After getting a lot of complaints caused by the bad PostScript which the Ghostscript-based pdftops filter has produced, I fixed the upstream bugs in Poppler and switched back to Poppler. This fixed everything.
[18:34] <rickspencer3> tkamppeter: this is in Jaunty?
[18:34] <tkamppeter> I have also considered this as a Jaunty SRU and discussed it by e-mail. I will prepare the SRU in the next days.
[18:35] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:35] <rickspencer3> last topic, I'll just make it an announcement so that you can all go enjoy your dinners and all ...
[18:35] <tkamppeter> I get only positive answers and if someone still complained his problem was something else.
[18:35] <rickspencer3> I've been pestering people about quickly in an ad hoc manner ...
[18:36] <pitti> *nod*, I'm confident enough now to have this SRUed
[18:36] <pitti> rickspencer3: (JFYI, I also have two topics, one of which was in my mail)
[18:36] <rickspencer3> pitti: ok
[18:36] <tkamppeter> pitti, do you mean me?
[18:36] <rickspencer3> tkamppeter: thanks for the update
[18:37] <rickspencer3> moving on to a quick announce, then to pitti for two items
[18:37] <pitti> tkamppeter: right, I meant we should do this as a jaunty SRU and let it sit in -proposed for two weeks or so
[18:37] <rickspencer3> I'll set up a regularly time for discussing quickly, if any one is interested, let me know (I'll move this to the mail list)
[18:37] <rickspencer3> phew
[18:37] <rickspencer3> pitti
[18:37] <rickspencer3> ?
[18:37] <pitti> so, thing 1:
[18:37] <pitti> https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html
[18:38] <didrocks> (rickspencer3: before / after the spec approval? sorry pitti)
[18:38] <pitti> please have a look at which packages still need to be merged
[18:38] <pitti> and tell me if you need help with your merges
[18:38] <pitti> tkamppeter: ^ you have a fair bunch as well
[18:38]  * asac notes ifupdown
[18:38] <pitti> thing 2:
[18:39] <pitti> last week I reviewed the telepathy/empathy MIR bugs
[18:39] <pitti> they are all okay now, except for bug 384677
[18:39] <pitti> it says "will maintain itself", but if we want to make empathy real in karmic, this needs some dedicated maintainership
[18:40] <pitti> audio/video are horribly broken, and it's very crashy
[18:40] <pitti> so I wanted to ask whether someone can adopt this -- kenvandine/seb128/robert_ancell?
[18:40] <seb128> pitti: we have cassidy and Zdra from upstream around
[18:41] <seb128> and there is a bug day planned for empathy already
[18:41] <seb128> pedro is looking at those bugs
[18:41] <kenvandine> yup
[18:41] <seb128> and debian get the new versions
[18:41] <pitti> ah, so we should feel encouraged to file bugs like mad then?
[18:41] <kenvandine> pitti: yes
[18:41] <seb128> what else do you want to get added?
[18:41] <kenvandine> please :)
[18:41] <pitti> okay, good
[18:41] <pitti> thanks, fine for me
[18:41] <seb128> ok good
[18:41] <kenvandine> great
[18:41] <pitti> then I propose we'll switch over karmic this week
[18:41] <rickspencer3> !
[18:41] <kenvandine> :-D
[18:41] <kenvandine> woot
[18:41] <seb128> I will look at those bugs every now and then as I'm doing for pidgin
[18:42] <asac> great
[18:42] <pitti> [done]
[18:42] <seb128> but I don't have the bandwith to take over extra components ;-)
[18:42] <asac> so pidgin off CD?
[18:42] <kenvandine> i am trying to get my MI patch merged upstream
[18:42] <asac> ;)
[18:42] <kenvandine> plan to finish their requirements by tomorrow
[18:42] <pitti> asac: ish; libpurple sucks in pidgin-data, which needs to be fixed
[18:42] <kenvandine> asac: yup
[18:42] <ccheney> is there a way to pull history (logs) from pidgin into empathy?
[18:42] <pitti> wastes 1 MB CD space
[18:42] <asac> pitti: yeah saw that bug.
[18:42] <jcastro> ccheney: I am looking into that (would be nice)
[18:42] <ccheney> jcastro: ok
[18:42] <kenvandine> ccheney: not yet... but i think jorge was going to file a bug
[18:43] <awe> pitti:
[18:43] <asac> (rather discussion fwiw)
[18:43] <pitti> rickspencer3: back to you
[18:43] <rickspencer3> pitti: thanks
[18:43] <rickspencer3> sorry, I didn't see your mail, or I would have put your items earlier in the agenda
[18:43] <pitti> rickspencer3: please note down merges as action item
[18:43] <rickspencer3> my had
[18:44] <rickspencer3> any other business?
[18:44] <seb128> I just want to point http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/versions.html
[18:44] <pitti> note that merges need to be finished by June 25th
[18:44] <seb128> it's working now but not regularly updated yet
[18:44] <seb128> code on ~ubuntu-desktop/+junk/versions
[18:44] <pitti> cool
[18:44] <rickspencer3> ACTION: tkamppeter to review merges
[18:44] <pitti> seb128: now we need a "sync" and a "do merge" button :)
[18:44] <rickspencer3> ACTION: asac to review ifupdown merge
[18:45] <pitti> rickspencer3: s/tkamppeter/everyone/
[18:45] <seb128> pitti: right, coming next
[18:45] <seb128> patches are welcome ;-)
[18:45] <ccheney> i'm uploading a new OOo later today that will have rosetta enabled for export, then later OOo-l10n using rosetta data once i verify it works on that side as well
[18:45] <pitti> seb128: sync-source.py -a -f -F, let's go home
[18:46] <seb128> hehe
[18:46] <rickspencer3> ACTION: Everyone to review merges and ask for help if needed
[18:46] <seb128> action: getting dinner? ;-)
[18:46] <rickspencer3> ACTION seb128 to fix dinner
[18:46] <pitti> mmmm dinner
[18:47]  * rickspencer3 taps gavel
[18:47] <kenvandine> hehe
[18:47] <rickspencer3> thanks all!
[18:47] <bryce> thanks
[18:47] <pitti> thanks everyone
[18:47] <seb128> thanks rickspencer3
[18:47] <awe> see ya
[18:47] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[18:47] <ccheney> thanks
[18:47] <asac> thx
[18:47] <bryce> rickspencer3: btw, upstream has changed how ctrl-alt-backspace works again.  :-P
[18:47] <rickspencer3> bryce: lol
[18:47] <pitti> bryce: !
[18:47] <rickspencer3> what does it do now?
[18:47] <bryce> now it's configurable
[18:47] <jcastro> hah
[18:47] <jcastro> awesome
[18:47] <pitti> bryce: wasn't it configurable before, too?
[18:47] <bryce> er, configurable during runtime
[18:48] <tkamppeter> thanks.
[18:48] <rickspencer3> thanks tkamppeter
[18:48] <pitti> bryce: ctrl+alt+backspace changes the setting? :-)
[18:48] <jcastro> is it alt-sysrq-k-ctrl-alt-backspace? That would be so great.
[18:48] <rickspencer3> lol
[18:48] <bryce> jcastro: :-)
[18:48] <rickspencer3> didrocks: still around?
[18:48] <didrocks> rickspencer3: of course :)
[18:48] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: quickly?
[18:48] <kenvandine> ?
[18:49] <rickspencer3> I was thinking that we should start a quickly mailing list, and perhaps set a regular discussion time
[18:49] <rickspencer3> thoughts?
[18:49] <kenvandine> yes!
[18:49] <didrocks> yes, it will be lot easier!
[18:49] <rickspencer3> lool: ^^^
[18:49] <kenvandine> pitti: i really hope the gwibber spec is good now :)
[18:49] <pitti> NB that launchpad projects support MLs now
[18:49] <rickspencer3> pitti: sweet
[18:49] <rickspencer3> pitti: interested?
[18:49] <jcastro> rickspencer3: appply for a list now and I can approve it
[18:50] <rickspencer3> jcastro: I'll try, hold on
[18:50] <kenvandine> oh know... jcastro has that kind of power?
[18:50] <kenvandine> s/know/no
[18:50] <jcastro> \o/
[18:50] <rickspencer3> jcastro: done
[18:50] <rickspencer3> jcastro: thanks
[18:51] <rickspencer3> didrocks: kenvandine: shall we use that list to discuss a regular time?
[18:51] <kenvandine> great first post :)
[18:51] <rickspencer3> sweet
[18:51] <rickspencer3> enough said
[18:51]  * kenvandine wonders why his laptop is dog slow suddenlhy
[18:51] <rickspencer3> jcastro: why aren't you on the quickly team?
[18:51] <didrocks> rickspencer3: on fundamentals idea, yes (like, do we want quickly to creat project), but a regular meeting is great too :)
[18:52] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: because one of your torrent trackers just picked up like 10 seeders?
[18:52] <jcastro> rickspencer3: dunno, I will apply. (list done)
[18:52] <kenvandine> oh... of course.. .pidgin is making my box swap
[18:52] <kenvandine> hehe
[18:52] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:52] <rickspencer3> great!
[18:52] <kenvandine> pidgin with like 30 channels on irc... not so good
[18:53] <rickspencer3> thanks didrocks, sorry you hung around for nothing :(
[18:53] <didrocks> jcastro: approved
[18:53] <didrocks> rickspencer3: no pb. I think I will try to follow desktop team meeting when I have the time :)
[18:54] <rickspencer3> didrocks: that would be great
[18:54] <didrocks> rickspencer3: will you answer to pitti's concern on the spec?
[18:54] <didrocks> I have not a clear idea on everything (like project creation/interaction between quickly and launchpad we want), to be honest :)
[19:02]  * kenvandine had to reboot to get the load down :/
[19:25] <pmatulis> is it possible to configure the Panel (add icons) and have that config applied to all system users?
[19:26] <chrisccoulson> pmautils - i think thats difficult if users already changed their panel config
[19:26] <chrisccoulson> because they will have custom gconf settings
[19:26] <chrisccoulson> i might be wrong though.
[19:27] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: you can set some of them as mandatory
[19:27] <didrocks> so, user can't override your configuration
[19:28] <ccheney> kenvandine: i ended up using bip with xchat and irssi, xchat just for alerts and irssi for actual irc usage
[19:28] <chrisccoulson> it depends what you're trying to achieve really. if you just want to change the default config and have that flow through to existing users, then i think its pretty difficult
[19:28] <ccheney> kenvandine: it seems to work much better than attempting to use pidgin for real irc
[19:28] <didrocks> pmatulis: http://library.gnome.org/admin/system-admin-guide/stable/ is your friend :)
[19:28] <ccheney> kenvandine: real irc imho being more than 1-2 channels
[19:28] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: yes, for existing user, I don't know how it handles if you change afterwards
[19:29] <kenvandine> ccheney: agreed
[19:29] <kenvandine> pidgin is killing me
[19:29] <chrisccoulson> didrocks - there are some hacks in our gnome-panel package for handling things like that, eg FUSA migration and indicator-applet migration
[19:29] <chrisccoulson> which reminds me - i must finish this gnome-panel package this evening
[19:29] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: :)
[19:29] <ccheney> kenvandine: note that if you do end up using bip with xchat and irssi you may want to get the new bip from karmic as it has a bugfix for that usecase
[19:30] <ccheney> kenvandine: otherwise it prepends weird + and - signs before everyones comments
[19:30] <pmatulis> chrisccoulson: this is in the context of a locked down environment
[19:30] <chrisccoulson> ah, ok - then what didrocks suggested will be most interesting to you
[19:31] <pmatulis> chrisccoulson: i want to force those icons on all users
[19:31] <pmatulis> and then lock the panel
[19:32] <pmatulis> i've gone through that resource, but there is nothing that forces the panel "config" on all users, it's always user-based to my understanding
[19:32] <pmatulis> you can force the panel to be locked for everyone however
[19:34] <pmatulis> unless i try to alter the *default* config
[19:37] <didrocks> pmatulis: did you have a look at that, for locking and setting system-wide: http://library.gnome.org/users/gconf-editor/stable/defaults-mandatory.html.en?
[19:38] <pmatulis> didrocks: yes, but not in the context of trying to alter the default panel config
[19:39] <pmatulis> didrocks: would you happen to know which key provides that?
[19:39] <didrocks> pmatulis: I never tried that, but you tell that if you change an icon place on the panel, the gconf key differs, and you can't put it as mandatory (so locked?)
[19:40] <pmatulis> not sure i follow
[19:41] <didrocks> pmatulis: IIRC, when you change something on the pannel, some gconf key are created/changed
[19:41] <pmatulis> yes
[19:41] <didrocks> so, if you change them system-wide, in /etc/gnome
[19:42] <didrocks> and then put them as mandatory to avoid people changing them in their ~
[19:42] <didrocks> you should get what you want
[19:44] <pmatulis> right
[19:44] <pmatulis> now i'm trying to hunt down what needs to be changed
[19:45] <pmatulis> it's not a single key, keys have to be removed and other added
[19:45] <pmatulis> example: /apps/panel/default_setup/objects/email_launcher
[19:51] <pitti> kenvandine: so you want to keep tightly integrating gwibber accounts into gnome-about-me?
[19:55] <kenvandine> i think so, and there is some unrelated talk about adding things like gmail setup to about me
[19:55] <kenvandine> seems to be the most natural fit
[19:56] <kenvandine> the goal is to disconnect the "being social" from using gwibber
[19:56] <pitti> kenvandine: well, the integration could be much more loose by just adding a "Configure social networks..." button there, which starts gwibber's wizard
[19:56] <kenvandine> like fusa will interacte with it
[19:56] <kenvandine> etc
[19:56] <pitti> kenvandine: did you talk to g-c-c upstream about this?
[19:56] <kenvandine> pitti: yeah, but that feels a little disconnected
[19:56] <pitti> this will be a pretty heavy patch
[19:56] <kenvandine> yes
[19:56] <kenvandine> rodrigo_  might even do the work... or dobey
[19:57] <kenvandine> :)
[19:57] <pitti> okay
[19:58] <pitti> good, approved then
[20:00] <pitti> good night everyone
[20:00] <pitti> I might do some hacking tonight, but off IRC
[20:04] <didrocks> pitti: good night!
[20:06] <kenvandine> :)
[20:06] <kenvandine> good night pitti, thx
[20:14] <ccheney> i am having trouble with jaunty on my desktop system whenever i try to go to a window titlebar (i think that is the correct term?) it turns the cursor into a hand instead of an arrow
[20:14] <ccheney> and i can't drag windows around
[20:15] <ccheney> anyone seen an issue like that before?
[20:15] <ccheney> it seems i can sometimes cause it to show as a insert cursor, but it won't show up as an arrow regardless
[20:16] <ccheney> it thinking i have a stuck key wouldn't cause that would it?
[20:16]  * ccheney isn't sure how to debug this issue
[20:16] <kenvandine> ccheney: no clue
[20:25]  * ccheney wonders wtf is wrong with his desktop system, its pretty much unusable with whatever is going on
[20:25] <ccheney> i'm pretty sure a stuck key couldn't cause this problem
[20:26] <ccheney> bryce: ping
[20:27] <ccheney> whatever is happening also isn't consistent i logged out and back in and its working for the moment, but it seems to keep recurring
[20:35] <bryce> ccheney: yep?
[20:35] <ccheney> bryce: have you heard any reports about mouse getting stuck in weird state
[20:35] <bryce> not like you've described exactly
[20:36] <ccheney> bryce: on jaunty for some reason my mouse seems to get stuck thinking it is in eg text selection mode from gnome-terminal, etc
[20:36] <bryce> ccheney: have you ruled out that it's the window manager? if you use compiz, try metacity; if not then vice versa
[20:36] <ccheney> i'm using metacity, it doesn't happen every time and i'm not doing anything special so i am not sure what is causing it
[20:37] <bryce> ccheney: can you identify when that started happening, and pin it to a particular update in /var/log/dpkg.log?
[20:37] <ccheney> not really sure how to track down what actually is causing it
[20:37] <ccheney> it started happening a month or so ago, i may just need to reinstall jaunty and try to track it down that way
[20:37] <ccheney> i don't use my desktop machine directly that much, mostly through ssh so i don't know more specific than that :-\
[20:38] <bryce> ccheney: video driver?
[20:38] <ccheney> nv
[20:38] <bryce> hmm
[20:38] <bryce> ccheney: single-head or dual-head?
[20:39] <ccheney> bryce: single-head
[20:39] <bryce> hmm, ok so that rules out most of my guesses :-)
[20:40] <ccheney> i seem to see it most often when moving around gnome-terminal window it normally goes from the text selection to hyperlink hand to arrow depending on what you hover over, but it seems to get stuck at times and then even going entirely out of the gnome-terminal area doesn't help restore it to normal behavior
[20:43] <bryce> well, the way this stuff works is that the client applications request cursor state changes through libx11 (usually via a gtk lib wrapper), which puts in the request to the xserver
[20:44] <ccheney> so when leaving a window metacity should be telling it to change (i guess?)
[20:44] <bryce> there's a particular chunk of code in the xserver which handles cursors, separate from most of the other code (which is why when X freezes the mouse cursor still moves)
[20:44] <bryce> ccheney: yeah either the window manager or the client application make the requests
[20:45] <ccheney> bryce: ok
[20:46] <bryce> it's conceivable it's a gnome-terminal bug.  from what you describe it sounds like it might be trying to do something special with it
[20:46] <ccheney> ok
[20:46] <bryce> another option is gtk, if it affects multiple gnome apps
[20:46] <ccheney> yea
[20:47] <bryce> unfortunately on -nv I doubt compiz will be an option, but if it is, that could help identify whether it's a window manager issue or not.  But maybe just experimenting with gnome-terminal and other apps would be easier.
[20:48] <bryce> e.g., like try running xterm or a different terminal program for a while
[20:49] <ccheney> i could try running nvidia to see if the issue goes away from the xserver side i suppose
[20:49] <bryce> if you want to get really hard core, there are some x protocol trace tools (xtrace, xmon, xscope) which will tell you exactly what protocol commands are going through
[20:49] <ccheney> ok
[20:49] <bryce> but probably not useful until after you can reliably reproduce it
[20:49] <ccheney> yea
[20:50] <bryce> another angle would be to test older versions (like you said, reinstall jaunty, and upgrade piece by piece)
[20:50] <bryce> I'd probably take a good look at the gnome-terminal changelog to see if they added/modified any cursor-related code recently, in which case that'd become quite suspicious
[20:50] <ccheney> ok
[20:51] <ccheney> hmm the last entry i see in changelog for gnome-terminal is mar 19, which was quite a while before even jaunty release
[20:51] <bryce> anyway, let me know how it goes; I could probably throw a lot more ideas on how to debug it further, esp. if it starts looking like it really is an X bug
[20:53] <ccheney> hmm are we not getting the gnome .1 release in jaunty this time?
[21:08] <chrisccoulson> ccheney - i think the .1 release of gnome-terminal was considered for SRU but rejected, as the changes didn't meet SRU requirements
[21:08] <ccheney> oh
[21:08] <chrisccoulson> 2.26.1 changes the behaviour of the state saving code for example
[21:08] <ccheney> ok
[21:09] <ccheney> hmm yea after looking on lp in the past it seems the .1 release came out early enough to go in the official releast (without updates)
[21:10] <chrisccoulson> i think it was released in the two weeks prior to release, so everything was pretty much frozen
[21:11] <ccheney> ok
[22:27] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: around?
[22:28] <kenvandine> rodrigo_: yup
[22:28] <kenvandine> rodrigo_: what's up?
[22:29] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: I added the 2 blueprints I told you about: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/couchdb-glib-package-for-karmic and https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/evolution-couchdb-package-for-karmic , could you review them please?
[22:29] <kenvandine> sure!
[22:29] <rodrigo_> thanks :)
[22:29] <kenvandine> is tomorrow morning ok?
[22:29] <kenvandine> i might get to it tonight
[22:29] <kenvandine> but can't promise :)
[22:30] <kenvandine> oh... you need the wiki pages too
[22:30] <kenvandine> :)
[22:30] <kenvandine>                                   Set the URL for this specification
[22:30] <kenvandine> create a wiki page with the actually implementation spec
[22:32] <kenvandine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/SymptomBasedBugReporting
[22:32] <kenvandine> as an example
[22:32] <kenvandine> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-karmic-symptom-based-bug-reporting
[22:32] <kenvandine> rodrigo_: ^^
[22:33] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: yes, will do that, and morning is ok :)
[22:33] <kenvandine> ok
[22:33] <kenvandine> thx
[22:40] <fta> hm, libgtk2.0-dev broken
[22:40] <fta>  /usr/lib/pkgconfig/gdk-2.0.pc not totally substituted
[22:40] <fta> $ pkg-config --cflags --libs gtk+-2.0
[22:40] <fta> Package @GDK_PRIVATE_PACKAGES@ was not found in the pkg-config search path.
[22:40] <fta> Perhaps you should add the directory containing `@GDK_PRIVATE_PACKAGES@.pc'
[22:40] <fta> ...
[22:47] <asac> lool: ^^
[22:48] <asac> hmm. seems seb did the upload
[23:04] <rodrigo_> kenvandine: ok, done an initial version, will review it tomorrow morning, so review it whenever you want