=== lukjad007 is now known as sn === sn is now known as lukjad007 [01:00] huzzah [01:00] Who is leading meeting ? [01:00] cprofitt is the best meeting leader :) [01:00] i agree [01:01] +1 PrivateVoid [01:01] +1 from me :) [01:01] lol [01:01] lol tabfail [01:01] greg-g are you around? [01:02] Vantrax: it isn't a tab fail if you were talking to me [01:02] #startmeeting Ubuntu-Learning [01:02] Meeting started at 19:02. The chair is cprofitt. [01:02] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [01:02] can we post links to license options please ? [01:02] [TOPIC] Licensing [01:02] New Topic: Licensing [01:03] [LINK] http://creativecommons.org/ [01:03] LINK received: http://creativecommons.org/ [01:03] hm, no doctormo [01:03] [LINK] http://creativecommons.org/license/ [01:03] LINK received: http://creativecommons.org/license/ [01:03] http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ [01:03] LINK received: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ [01:03] http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ [01:03] LINK received: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ [01:03] those are the two licenses under consideration [01:04] thank you [01:04] [LINK] http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses [01:04] LINK received: http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses [01:04] the only one I am considering is CC-BY-SA for content created by the team [01:04] and for those of you familiar with the issues, slow down so the others (me?) can follow please :) [01:04] dinda raised some good points about this too. Do we intend for people to be able to use our materials to create a business suppling ubuntu training? [01:04] no Vantrax [01:05] I think any content that is CC-BY-SA-NC should be relicensed or simply linked to and not hosted [01:05] cprofitt: "Attribution Share Alike" [01:05] ? [01:05] Vantrax, intend or not want to prohibit? [01:05] CC-BY-SA allows someone to do that [01:05] which was the reason the Desktop Training materials are NC [01:06] thewrath, that means that if you were to use content I create you have to give me attribution and you have to share your derivative work [01:06] right [01:06] Vantrax, and there are uses that some might consider commercial that I would want to allow [01:06] that is CC BY SA right [01:06] we can supply non-transferable waivers and keep things NC as well as an option [01:06] I have no issue with someone using our material in a in-person course and charging for it. [01:07] as long as they follow the attribution and share their derivative works [01:07] I think including the NC part is pointless as it is not something I or the Ubuntu community is likely to be able to enforce in the first place [01:08] and there are too many 'does this really apply' type questions [01:08] I think we need an agreement of kinds [01:08] work posted on the server is "owned" by the UCLP [01:08] yes [01:08] bodhizazen: +1 [01:09] authors need to agree to that [01:09] bodhizazen, the group had previously voted on and CC-BY-SA [01:09] is that decision null and void? [01:09] I think the decision has been questioned [01:09] no, it is being opened for discussion [01:09] I can not agree to it being owned by the UCLP [01:09] and this meeting is to discuss issues and objections [01:09] cprofitt: in the same way everything posted to UF is 'owned' by UF [01:10] cprofitt: why not? [01:10] I think there are too many complications if the materials are not owned by the UCLP [01:10] Vantrax, actually I am not aware of Ubuntu Forums claiming ownership - please point me to that language [01:10] cprofitt: that could be clarified by UG in a hearbeat [01:11] Vantrax: me as well [01:11] UG? [01:11] Ubuntu Geek [01:11] I would like to see it on the site... in writing. [01:11] I will discontinue use of Ubuntu Forums if they claim ownership [01:11] Ownership and the right to use are two different things. [01:12] Let me see what I can find [01:12] im hunting for it atm [01:12] what is the difference between ownership and right to use that you object to cprofitt ? [01:12] its some legal issue, the same reason MSN Messenger states they own an non transferable license to anything you transmit [01:13] anything published CC-BY-SA should not require UCLP ownership [01:13] If I produce content - I own it - and I choose to license it as CC-BY-SA [01:13] I do not GIVE ownership to Ubuntu or anyone else [01:13] yes, but individuals claiming ownership for a community project, that is messy [01:13] I do not claim ownership of a community project bodhizazen [01:13] claiming you own someghitn on a public server is messy [01:14] I do not agree bodhizazen [01:14] that is the entire purpose of CC [01:14] also worth noting, anything on the ubuntu forums is automatically cc-by-sa [01:14] So if foo posts content [01:14] and then 6 months later claims s/he owns the content and wants it removed [01:14] what happens ? [01:15] it might be better to say that [01:15] if we say everything submitted is by-sa then we can say bad luck [01:15] Vantrax, that I can accept... but that does not mean I relinquish my ownership of the material [01:15] because we hold a valid license to use it, and create derivative works:P [01:15] I think you are not understanding the nature of ownership bodhizazen [01:16] I think not [01:16] we can make the default to give ownership to the project, but allow people to retain it personally [01:16] bodhizazen, have you any legal background? [01:16] if they request it [01:16] not enough aparently cprofitt [01:16] If Greg-g were here he could settle it... [01:16] I am not 100% on this stuff... [01:17] cprofitt: you are correct so far as I understand it [01:17] ill retract my previous statement about the forums, I cant back it up. Ill post a link in our channel later if I find something [01:17] but from the discussions he and I have had... and the seminars I have attended in relation to my job [01:17] well, how can we vote for something if we do not understand it ? [01:17] if a person publishes something as CC-BY-SA they do not relinquish ownership... but they can not stop anyone from using that content as produced as long as the license is followed [01:18] bodhizazen, we can not vote on something we do not understand. [01:18] when the group voted the last time to accept CC-BY-SA Greg-g gave us an explanation [01:18] thanks james_w [01:18] if something is by-sa then all works based on it must be by-sa right? [01:18] well, since that vote the issue has come up again :) [01:18] its inherited? [01:19] the difference with assigning ownership to the team would be with the BY clause [01:19] bodhizazen, why will the vote issue come up again? [01:19] This was already voted on... [01:19] james_w, exactly [01:19] why is assigning ownership to the team a problem ? [01:19] under that clause if you create a derivative work then you have to say that you derived from *me*, but if it is owned by the group then you say you derived from the *group* [01:19] cprofitt: the ones who brought up the issue are not here [01:20] that would be doctormo [01:20] the other thing is that if I own it then I can choose to give the work to someone else under a different license [01:20] I do not think the issue is with our use of BY-CC-SA [01:20] and just because somethign is voted on does not mean it can not be revisited or questioned , lol [01:20] e.g. sell it to a company and allow then to not follow the BY-SA parts [01:20] From my perspective, we request everything be licenced as by-sa but we use materials derived from the desktop training course and license them as by-sa-nc. [01:20] I think the question Martin was asking was concerning how the project would be able to use content that was CC-BY-SA-NC [01:21] ah [01:21] were not commercial [01:21] you can't mix CC-BY-SA-NC and CC-BY-SA [01:21] yeah [01:21] they are incompatible licenses [01:21] so in this case as Vantrax has pointed out the restriction by Canonical on their desktop course [01:21] thats our headache [01:21] doctormo gave the impression he was intending the site to be commercial [01:21] the question is what is our intent [01:21] er no... the oposite [01:22] our intent is not commercial [01:22] he wants it all NC-BY-SA [01:22] we may not be able to use the desktop course ... [01:22] but he also wants it open for people to do 'tutoring' based on it [01:22] Vantrax, I am not aware of him wanting it to be NC [01:22] I think his concern is how to use NC works [01:22] er CC-BY-SA [01:22] lol [01:22] but as he is not here we should move on... and table this until the next time [01:22] and yes, his consern is how to implement NC [01:23] +1 cprofitt [01:23] [TOPIC] Theme / Name [01:23] New Topic: Theme / Name [01:23] I suggest a discussion page ? [01:23] bodhizazen, [01:23] I think its fine as long as it is complete and self contained [01:23] bodhizazen, we can use the mailing list to discuss the license issues [01:23] * bodhizazen looks fo rlink to agenda [01:23] yes [01:23] that will allow Greg-g to give us advice [01:24] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda === asac_ is now known as asac [01:24] you are up bodhizazen with theme and name [01:24] theme is getting there, its blind coded atm so ill need to get it tested and fix lots of bugs [01:24] but it is complete, except for a header image [01:25] as for the name... [01:25] good job Vantrax, bodhizazen do you have a test site and a production site at this time? [01:25] I think that was in regard to the name of the site vs the name of the project? [01:25] sec cprofitt I have one more comment on license :) [01:25] discussion on mailing list is fine BUT [01:25] please take the license discussion to the mailing list. [01:25] and this is a BIG BUT [01:26] so having the name being something like Learn Ubuntu (as it is learn.ubuntu.com) with a tagline as ubuntu community learning etc [01:26] i think that was the naming bit [01:26] 1. It is a technical discussion and please take the time to explain your postion / concerns [01:27] 2. There seems to be some confusion about the issue and I am not sure I am understanding what doctomo is raising, his use of language is confusing at times [01:27] bodhizazen: please send a email to start the discussion with an outline of how it should be done, and reminding everyone of the Ubuntu CoC. I figure this will be a 'lively' debate [01:27] to the lists.ubuntu.com list, please :) [01:27] what to lists.ubuntu.com ? [01:27] the email [01:28] Vantrax, I am looking for our meeting logs... we had agreed on a name... [01:28] but I do agree we need to rethink that now that we have the domain... [01:28] OK, back on topic [01:28] I think sliding the name we had agreed on to the tag line is appropriate [01:28] I think that the agreed on name was "The Ubuntu Learning Project" [01:28] or some such... [01:28] Vantrax was suggesting we use a different name for the moodle site itself [01:28] so our team is called the UCLP [01:29] but our moodle site is called ____ [01:29] something else [01:29] yes... Community was in there... [01:29] id like to note that the name of the site, and the name of the project do not have to be identical [01:29] * dthacker nods [01:29] and its a big ass name to put on a header [01:29] I would say Learn Ubuntu - tag line of Ubuntu Community Learning Project works [01:29] the longer name is too long... [01:29] for a 'branding' graphic [01:30] yeah, that was my opinion when trying to work on it:P [01:30] it also works well with the domain name [01:30] [VOTE] Use shorter name: Learn Ubuntu [01:30] Please vote on: Use shorter name: Learn Ubuntu. [01:30] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [01:30] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [01:30] +1 [01:30] +1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [01:30] so are we going to call the site Learn Ubuntu ? [01:30] 0 [01:30] +1 [01:30] +1 received from Vantrax. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [01:31] who is eligible to vote? [01:31] that is the plan [01:31] +0 [01:31] Abstention received from bodhizazen. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2 [01:31] anyone [01:31] go ahead dthacker [01:31] +1 [01:31] we are a community project... [01:31] dthacker: those issues are on the agenda later , lol [01:31] +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3 [01:31] +1 [01:31] +1 received from dthacker. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4 [01:31] this is a public meeting not a board meeting:P [01:31] any more votes [01:31] I will use Roberts Rules... [01:31] any more votes [01:31] any more votes [01:31] [ENDVOTE] [01:31] Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4 [01:32] [AGREED] Site name: Learn Ubuntu [01:32] AGREED received: Site name: Learn Ubuntu [01:32] [ACTION] Vantrax and Doc to brand site as Learn Ubuntu [01:32] ACTION received: Vantrax and Doc to brand site as Learn Ubuntu [01:32] [TOPIC] Content - How do these various teams contribute ? Each team gets a course ? [01:32] New Topic: Content - How do these various teams contribute ? Each team gets a course ? [01:33] so, I don't really know how moodle works [01:33] I do not think there will be a consensus on this next issue today [01:33] I would assume courses would be created in logical content groups. [01:33] But I would like to start the discussion [01:33] Teams will have multiple courses most likely [01:33] cprofitt: can you explain a bit about "users" and "content groups" and "courses" ? [01:33] im with cprofitt on that [01:33] I can not see limiting them to one course [01:33] cprofitt: mind if i jump in here? [01:33] well -- if you look at the site we have five areas now I think [01:33] sure Vantrax [01:33] I'd suggest building block courses that build on each other. [01:33] I have used Moodle and seen it in use [01:34] cprofitt: I think the question is how to add in a group ? [01:34] Say the development / MOTU team [01:34] are they a group ? [01:34] so, we have outlined programs at this stage, and courses that fit into programs based on logical topic groupings [01:34] how does it work and how should we plan it ? [01:34] this is the company I have worked with -- http://www.professionallearningboard.com/ [01:34] bodhizazen, no. [01:35] content is not grouped on what group creates it... but on how the 'student' will see it [01:35] different teams will have access to and maintain individual courses in the programs, with members from each of the groups forming a moderators group over a program [01:35] thats kinda the way I see that working [01:36] plus one to Vantrax, but beware the orphan courses [01:36] in the case of development / MOTU there are development courses they may teach and course on using launchpad or subversion or other 'team' tools that they may author and instruct [01:36] from the student side its all one [01:36] dthacker: yes, we will have to deal with those, but very few of them will exist because the programs are very broad [01:36] we may also end up with non-motu developers teaching 'entry' programming courses [01:36] OK, well some explanation / road map would help those not familiar with how moodle works [01:36] I see this as a FAQ [01:36] bodhizazen: +1 [01:36] http://professionallearningboard.com/tsd/course/index.php [01:36] LINK received: http://professionallearningboard.com/tsd/course/index.php [01:37] i think bodhizazen is talking in terms of managing the content, as opposed to teaching [01:37] that is the Professional Learning Boards course catalog [01:37] bodhizazen, that is one of the things I am working on.... [01:37] OK [01:37] well, that is what I wanted to understand [01:38] due to the nature of facilitated vs. self-study courses you may have two course covering the same material with a different structure and different course [01:38] when say the wiki team wants to get involved, how do they do that ? [01:38] okies cprofitt and I will work on an FAQ about that [01:38] we need to provide structure [01:38] +1 bodhizazen [01:38] the other thing is that if you have a course that is instructor lead you may have the 'same' course listed multiple times if we have multiple instructors... [01:38] OK, thanks [01:38] I will try to work with Vantrax on the FAQ [01:39] I think not everyone is fluent in how moodle works is all [01:39] thanks [01:39] no, but were getting there [01:39] I agree bodhizazen [01:39] sorry I'm very late [01:39] I would like to have people be able to make 'test' courses on a test server and them move them to a production server when they are 'approved' [01:39] [TOPIC] ext steps? What still needs to be done before we can tell teams they can start using Moodle [01:39] New Topic: ext steps? What still needs to be done before we can tell teams they can start using Moodle [01:40] okies, so were up to pleia now? [01:40] +1 cprofitt [01:40] is instructor-led always a "live" course, such as one given in #ubuntu-classroom? [01:40] this ties in with what we just discussed... [01:40] I can set up a test server [01:40] so I've been talking with lots of teams [01:40] dthacker: yes [01:40] at learn.bodhizazen.net [01:40] some want to know when they can get a login and start going :) [01:40] presumably the last thing we discussed will need to be sorted out, what else? [01:40] If i can revisit the roadmap [01:40] IMHO we need to provide several example courses - some of the ones I uploaded can serve that function. [01:40] We need to discuss tema membership and governance as well pleia2 [01:40] I've just been chugging away with classroom lately, haven't been doing much specific -learning stuff aside from talking with other ubuntu teams [01:40] Were getting the main site themed and the development site up and running [01:41] who can contribute ? [01:41] then we need to have all prospective 'authors' and instructors take the one course on Moodle I uploaded [01:41] Vantrax: +1, can't really do much untilt he site is themed right [01:41] then I would want each prospective author (author team - you can have multiple authors) [01:41] submit a course proposal [01:41] anyone who wants to add stuff can take the courses that cprofitt mentioned and get stuck into doing some testing on the sandbox [01:42] and we would want to 'accept' the proposal (how to be determined) [01:42] Vantrax: ok, cool [01:42] once the theme is done we are going to make an announcement and get more input into our courses as shown on the wiki [01:42] and then have them build it on the sandbox [01:42] We should set up a sandbox and a wiki page we can point prospective teacher to , lol [01:42] bodhizazen: yes :) [01:42] then we will start building [01:42] have it reviewed on the sandbox and approved for production [01:42] does that make sense? [01:42] yes [01:42] sounds good [01:42] Approval done by who [01:42] we need to communicate is all [01:42] TDB Vantrax [01:42] by moderators for the program? [01:42] we need to build that team structure [01:42] or by us more centrally? [01:43] I would really like to have some 'educators' here to help us... [01:43] I think it's too big of a job for us [01:43] some courses will require techical review for accuracy. [01:43] in addition we need to ensure accuracy and relevance [01:43] i was about to say that pleia2 [01:43] I think it shall start centrally, but it needs to grow beyond that [01:43] same as CC did [01:43] How does the forum staff pick the tutorials? [01:43] Think about decentralisation [01:43] we do not pick them [01:44] I thought there was one area of the forum in which tutorials were reviewed and accepted... [01:44] they are submitted and they are reviewed b4 they are approved [01:44] no? [01:44] i figure each program will have a group that takes care of standards for that program made out of the contributing groups [01:44] how are they 'approved' then? [01:44] so some motu, some doc guys, some dev guys etc [01:44] it is getting more difficult as they are becoming more and more techincal [01:44] I would imagine our process will be similar bodhizazen [01:44] someone really has to run through them and test [01:44] If so I can help structure that [01:44] although relevance to our efforts will likely be a key too [01:45] I agree bodhizazen [01:45] [TOPIC] We need to develop team governance. [01:45] New Topic: We need to develop team governance. [01:45] and that segues in to this topic [01:45] Well this fits in with the rest of the discussion [01:45] We need to stop a minute :) [01:45] I do think we need to build the team structure soon so we can move forward in an organized manner [01:45] we are growing too fast [01:46] bodhizazen: +1 [01:46] well, we are about to [01:46] we need at least an outline of how someone becomes a member [01:46] were at the tipping poing [01:46] and how to resolve conflict [01:46] point [01:46] bodhizazen, +1 [01:46] for those not familiar with the BT we have a membership route [01:47] the community has many templates for conduct and governance that can be adopted [01:47] I suggest we adopt something like that with this team [01:47] dthacker: that is not the problem [01:47] I agree... I think we need to have a meeting of the board after we have a vigorous discussion on the mailing list. [01:47] dthacker: yep, we will be adopting them, its more structural [01:47] the problem is - who decides who is a member of the team ? [01:47] I guess the board to start with, people have been grandfathered in up to now [01:47] so far it's been at the decretion of the board [01:48] What are the reasons for exluding people from being members, that's the first question./ [01:48] May I suggest we start by using voice on #ubuntu-learning to identify members ? [01:48] we approve people who we feel can be valueable contributors, or who have proven themselves to be [01:48] Vantrax, there has been little to no reason for some being accepted and others left on the vine [01:48] we really need that process ironed out... [01:48] mogain: well, not exclude per se [01:48] so it's not possible for someone to just join the team and contribute? [01:48] +1 cprofitt, its been very hap hazzard [01:48] more make sure they know how to integrate into the team [01:48] no I think not dthacker [01:48] I do not want people to level accusations of favoritism or indifference [01:48] dthacker: it is, but we want to have the launchpad team showing contributors [01:49] as opposed to anyone who visits [01:49] so we need to discuss the overall process (mailing list) and then vote on it next meeting. [01:49] I would not want us to be so exlusionary, people have to be given the chance to prove themselves a reputation and they can't do that in this modle. [01:49] so being part of the team is an acknowladgement of effort that has meaning [01:49] The team is open, but bringing someone on board and getting the team running is different' [01:49] I agree with bodhizazen we need to have a process for becoming a member, and a guide for new / prospective members as to what is required of a member [01:49] there have been exceptions, I am going to use popey as an example since he knows he's awesome and won't be bothered :) he was added to the team because we know his work and feel he could be a valueable contributor, not because of his involvement [01:49] that is not the point mogain :) [01:50] mogain, Moodle is not the only avenue for contribution. [01:50] may I outline my concerns for those not involved with the BT ? [01:50] certainly bodhizazen but we may have to move some of the other items to the next meeting [01:50] please do bodhizazen [01:51] just keep it short:P [01:51] Basically, a team is a group [01:51] working together [01:51] so, when people want to join [01:51] bodhizazen: please do, beacuse it sound more like a private club [01:51] we need 2 or 3 things [01:51] 1. Most team members want a meet and greet [01:51] ie wiki page, who are they ? [01:51] not everyone knows who popey is :) [01:52] 2. We need people to be brought into the tema [01:52] dthacker: we want everyone to be involved, however we also want a way to acknowladge contributors. [01:52] they need a basic education on how both moodle works and how the team functions [01:52] dthacker, our process would be more like bug-control; people have to provide some samples that they know the process... [01:52] otherwise they get lost [01:52] * dthacker nods at cproffit [01:52] 3. We need to make sure someone is not potentially disruptive [01:53]