[08:33] hi all! [08:33] hola nubae [08:53] hola asanchez [08:55] are you planning to flight to Spain? [08:55] yup, el 30 tengo entrevista en Sevilla [08:55] espero que vaya todo bien [09:40] nubae, be ready for 40ºC [09:47] gah [09:47] bueno, I'm used to it [09:47] at least its not 50c [20:50] nubae: ping [20:51] Hey all [20:52] LaserJock: haha, looks like you gave nubae the ping of death [20:52] Lns: heh [20:52] LaserJock: I really like the idea of the script repo [20:52] that's one thing that would be really nice to build up [20:52] I thought you might [20:53] I was talking with highvoltage about it this morning [20:53] Hey Lns, LaserJock.... LaserJock, a question please, how could I try to get an "ltsp-server-dnsmasq" package to universe, that only satisfies the dependencies to use dnsmasq instead of the usual dhcp3-server that ubuntu uses? - no code whatsoever? [20:53] I think it could easy to implement, give something easy people can contribute to [20:53] it's the lack of automation that makes linux hard for schools right now..they have processes during the year that could be easily automated but no tools exist for it [20:53] script repo??? I'm in!!! :) [20:53] and I think it would help us get feedback on what's lacking [20:54] I've just finished the school-scripts for Greek schools using ubuntu/ltsp [20:54] Lns: I think it would be good to generalize and document these scripts [20:54] Lns: people often have a good idea, but they have a specific itch to scratch. A collaborative repo would help to make scripts more useful to the whole community, IMO [20:55] alkisg: well, you'll want to upload the package to REVU [20:55] alkisg: nice [20:55] exactly [20:55] * alkisg googles about REVU [20:55] alkisg: it's a tad overkill for a simple metapackage, but that's the usual place to put packages up for review [20:56] And what's nice, too, would be that these scripts can take many different forms - for instance, we can take the ideas of some of these things and put them into what i'm developing (the thin-client-manager gui) [20:56] alkisg: basically you need 2 MOTU to approve the package [20:56] alkisg: you could maybe get stgraber and myself to do it [20:56] OK, LaserJock & stgraber? :P :D [20:56] Heh!!! :D [20:56] heh [20:56] alkisg: if you put it up on REVU and let me know the URL I'll review it [20:56] Thanks man, I'll do that. [20:57] Lns: yeah, I sort of see it as an incubation area as well [20:57] Totally [20:57] hey LaserJock [20:57] Lns: if scripts turn out to be really useful, etc. then they can get picked up by Edubuntu/LTSP proper I think [20:57] bencrisford: hi [20:57] bencrisford: did you send out the meeting minutes? [20:58] Where did you talk about the scripts? In the meeting? [20:58] LaserJock: =S, No, sorry, I thought you were gonna? [20:58] shall i send em now? [20:58] bencrisford: I sent you an email with revisions [20:58] alkisg: on the list [20:58] bencrisford: but it's your deal dude, send 'em off when you think they're ready :-) [20:59] * LaserJock is kickin' back and letting everybody else do the work ;-p [20:59] * alkisg curses his slow mail... just got it [20:59] LaserJock: Haaaang on, I have the minutes for the 5th june meeting [20:59] wasnt there one on the 11th? [21:00] hmm [21:00] i wouldnt of been here that night [21:00] it might have been canceled, I don't remember [21:00] k [21:00] so on a technical level here's what I think might work: [21:00] 1) create an LP project, edubuntu-community-tools [21:01] 2) make ~edubuntu-members the driver [21:01] the LP Project will allow people to just bzr branch lp:edubuntu-community-tools to get the scripts [21:01] and allows people to file bugs against them [21:02] * Lns loves that idea [21:02] ~edubuntu-members gives some QA, a little perk to being a member, and some incentive to becoming a Member [21:02] what scripts? [21:02] * bencrisford scrolls up [21:02] *eventually* if this works out we could even package it up [21:02] bencrisford: read your edubuntu email [21:03] bencrisford: the ones that mostly aren't created yet ;) [21:03] cool :) [21:03] ill send those minutes now? [21:03] thats why i cant read my inbox :P [21:03] bencrisford: sure [21:03] Lns: https://launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/+archive/ppa => sch-scripts package. The interface is in Greek, but the code comments are in English, so I think you'll be able to reuse some code. E.g. for locking down firefox settings, for adding applets to the panel for all users, for initial configuration of chroot & updating later on etc. [21:03] ncurses driven, I want to improve the interface in the summer. [21:04] hmm [21:04] LaserJock: Scripts that do like what? [21:04] alkisg: wow [21:04] Basically I took my 100 pages UbuntuLTSP installation/configuration manual and turned it into scripts [21:05] (still halfway there, though) [21:05] ah [21:05] back in an hour or so [21:05] minutes sent [21:08] alkisg: right, that's the kind of stuff I'm thinking of [21:08] I'm totally in for this! :) [21:09] ...and if we could get sbalneav or some other good dev with a little spare time to organize us (=define the "framework" of the scripts - not the implementation), we'd get a good start [21:10] exactly [21:19] I might have a dev resource for helping out with that [21:21] Hmmm... that's a nice idea [21:26] Lns, ask him if it would be possible to have a python GUI with an "embedded terminal" for the scripts to run in. [21:26] E.g. I would go to a menu (or a search dialog), locate the "update-chroot" script, and then the script would run inside the embedded terminal - so if user input was needed, it would be asked in a usual way inside the program interface... [21:27] alkisg: that's a novel idea, i'm sure some generic terminal could be created as a plugin or some such [21:27] to make scripts run inside the gui easier [21:28] that aren't gui based that is [21:28] I think the update-manager does that, it has an "expand to see the terminal" button somewhere [21:28] alkisg: it's very easy to embed ipython into an app [21:29] well [21:30] in general it would be good to separate frontend and backend [21:30] ah, there he is ;) [21:30] so scripts do their thing [21:30] but shouldn't make assumptions about frontend necessarily [21:31] then a GUI can be placed to feed the backend scripts the parameters they need [21:31] yeah, it would probably be better to use whiptail/gdialog/xdialog for user input from scripts [21:31] then the python program just has to system() the script [21:31] yanqui: that's what I use now (whiptail), and I don't really like the result [21:32] I've never used whiptail, I used zenity before I started just doing everything in python [21:32] Because if I didn't take into account something when I execute e.g. apt-get update, and user input is needed, then it's not nice to drop from whiptail to plain terminal [21:33] alkisg: the idea is to not need a terminal [21:34] alkisg: how does update manager and the add/remove thing do it in Ubuntu? [21:34] * yanqui kind of agrees with LaserJock [21:35] Do you think we'll have as experienced programmers involved as update-manager does? [21:35] and I'd lean toward having plugins be written in python with maybe something to run bash scripts... [21:35] update-manager does some funky stuff, not huge [21:36] alkisg: well if we can just snag that part out then we don't need anything else [21:36] but having the terminal there is considered bad usability [21:36] * Lns hasn't ever seen update-manager require user input *from* it's terminal interface [21:36] and people have wanted to get rid of it forever [21:36] * yanqui has [21:36] Lns: yes, generally you get a GUI [21:36] yeah, I agree with LaserJock [21:36] it's an implementation detail of Debian packages [21:36] ah [21:36] *most* packages use debconf [21:36] Well, if it's gonna be all-gui, then it should be python programs, not shell scripts... [21:36] which has a number of frontends depending on what you're using [21:37] however, Debian Policy didn't strictly say you have to use debconf [21:37] some some older packages actually just use stdin [21:37] hence the need for the terminal there [21:38] well, generally I'd see it as [21:38] well who is forcing the use of the terminal? aren't we talking about plugins for a gui to allow extended functionality? [21:38] as in, not in the core code of the gui [21:38] 1) start out with bash/perl/python/whatever people used [21:38] 2) as the tools become generalized and improved move towards a more standard framework [21:39] 3) apply an appropriate UI (not always GUI) and make sure it's consistent with the rest of the tools [21:39] Lns: I was just saying why Update Manager has the terminal [21:39] oh gotcha [21:40] in terms of usability for our target users (who may or may not be familiar with terminals) I think it's good to shoot for GUI when possible [21:40] we could just use .desktop files for our script plugin system [21:41] but python will be what's primarily supported, everything else will be secondary [21:41] yeah [21:42] python/bash [21:42] sometimes a shell script makes a lot of sense [21:42] and it's easily callable from a python GUI [21:42] in any case, this is somewhat getting the cart before the horse [21:43] there is not repository or code exactly yet :-) [21:43] well...there is a repo and code, but it's just....embryonic [21:43] or maybe more of a zygote [21:43] I don't think .desktop files would be enough, a framework would be needed. E.g. some scripts may be able to "act" on files, others on users... So the "framework" would know which scripts to show when right-clicking on a users list. (ok I now that's not gonna be implemented really soon :D) [21:44] yanqui: i think he's talking about the edubuntu script repo [21:45] alkisg: well, what you would have is a .desktop file that points to a wrapper [21:45] I mean: the python gui shows a groups list, the admin selects two groups, and then goes to the menu that activates a script that does something with the users that belong to these 2 groups [21:45] The "responsibility" to get the users that belong to these scripts would be on the framework, not on the script [21:45] so you have a .desktop file that points to a _wrapper.py file that defines input/output [21:46] LaserJock: or we could put some of that stuff into enviornmental vars [21:46] before exec() a couple of vars get set and there you go [21:46] first though I'd focus on the actual scripts [21:47] first we need something that works [21:47] I mean something like this (*one* of the front-ends, the users one): http://users.sch.gr/alkisg/temp/users-manager.png [21:49] well, we'll see... right now we're still trying to get up to the level we were before we started clearning the code [21:49] I like alkisg's stuff [21:49] I'm wondering if it needs maybe more generalization or something [21:49] alkisg: wow, that looks slick =) [21:49] There are scripts that just run without needing any parameters, scripts that run on users, scripts that run on groups, scripts that run on files etc [21:50] for the "do X to user Y" it's good [21:50] LaserJock: see on the bottom, there are 3 tabs [21:50] There should be more there [21:50] alkisg: what is this? [21:50] But the idea is that the "admin" could switch to the file view and call a script that acts on a file (e.g.) [21:51] well, I just wonder about more generalization and thinking about what we're trying to accomplish [21:51] I'm not convinced it should all be in 1 GUI [21:51] yanqui: a prototype I started making, but I left if for the summer due to lack of time [21:51] alkisg: I'd love it if you would work with us on our tcm project [21:51] what's it written in? [21:51] python/gtk [21:51] a lot of these goals seem to overlap [21:51] do you have a repo I could look at? [21:52] Lns, sure, I'd like that. [21:52] yanqui: I could send you the code, but it's not much - it's just the prototype [21:52] * Lns invites alkisg to #lns if he'd like to collaborate [21:52] Lns - gimme a few weeks to finish the things I've started - I'll dive into tcm in July [21:53] alkisg: can you send it to hex [at] neg9.org? [21:53] Anyway, as LaserJock says, I think we should start with defining what we're trying to accomplish [21:53] yanqui: will do [21:53] well we actually have a roadmap [21:53] I'm envisioning something more like an "Education Control Panel" [21:54] education control panel isn't general enough [21:54] where you can install education software, manage LTSP tasks, or do lock-down [21:54] LaserJock: this could be used in biz too [21:54] well, I don't want to generalize too much [21:54] as we then lose educational focus [21:55] one of the major faults of TCM was that it was focused too much on education [21:55] I thought it's major fault was it focused too much on LTSP :-) [21:55] I want something LTSP-agnostic [21:56] the commonground here is that it should be able to be used for *everything* [21:56] LaserJock: ltsp agnostic? [21:56] the LTSP parts can be used for ltsp, the user/group/file parts can be used for other stuff...it can all be easily separated in sections/plugins/what have you [21:57] Lns: I don't know about *everything* [21:57] but it can be developed without lock-in yes [21:57] yanqui: LTSP neutral [21:57] LaserJock: I mean, you want something that focuses more on user management or what? [21:57] but for Edubuntu the obvious focus is Education [21:57] I mean anything to do with Education on Ubuntu [21:58] so I'd like to see an Educational Software installer [21:58] I'd like to see Content Management [21:58] that's far outside the focus of this porject [21:58] User Management [21:58] project [21:58] Thin Client Managmenet [21:58] i think we've got some wires crossed =D [21:58] those are the things that people need [21:59] we're focused on thin client managment and user management, if someone wants an educational install I'd be glad to have that as a plugin [21:59] LaserJock: what we're talking about is the TCM project we're reviving.. it can definitely be used for things other than education. I think you're talking about the scripts repo for educational use, which is different [21:59] oh, yes [21:59] but both projects can share all sorts of stuff [21:59] but I see them as all sort of the same deal [21:59] because the goals overlap [22:00] sure [22:00] TCM is the Thin Client Managmenet component [22:00] but they should be maintained separately [22:00] but I want to see a whole Education Control Panel thingy [22:00] sure [22:00] that can be its own project [22:00] well wait here for a sec [22:00] well [22:00] sub-projects of a larger I think [22:01] I don't think TCM is in a vacuum neccesarily [22:01] we want to have tcm and user managment merged into a single control panel, but they're sort of different at the same time [22:01] then need to be separate [22:01] *they [22:01] because a lot of people don't use LTSP but need user managment [22:02] but there are overlapping parts that need to be interoperable [22:02] exactly [22:02] so that's why I'm saying sub-projects of a larger goal [22:02] integrated, but distinct programs [22:02] hmmmm [22:02] the Education Control Panel just pull them together into a easy-to-get-at interface [22:02] LaserJock: modular so they could be plugged into a central console but also separated from eachother [22:03] so like take the Gnome Control Center [22:03] +1 yanqui [22:03] right [22:03] it's a single interface to get you where you need to go [22:03] gnome-system-tools [22:03] but the apps are separate [22:03] right [22:03] maybe we can integrate with that project?? [22:03] ok, yeah [22:03] Lns: it's dead, that's why I'm trying to get this going [22:03] wha? gnome-system-tools is dead? [22:04] yes [22:04] * Lns gasps [22:04] * yanqui raises an eyebrow [22:04] how? [22:04] all of it is being ripped out but Users and Groups for Karmic [22:04] and Users and Groups will be replace as soon as possible [22:04] LaserJock: replaced with what? [22:05] so perhaps by the next LTS gnome-system-tools will be completely gone from Ubuntu [22:05] Lns: nobody knows yet [22:05] .... [22:05] hence why I'm trying to get stuff going [22:05] so it's dead, but they don't know what its successor will be [22:05] it's dead because nobody cared to continue it [22:05] so there's nobody to replace it [22:05] ... [22:05] hmmmmm [22:05] the problem was that each of the distros made their own tools [22:05] Fedora, Mandriva, openSUSE [22:06] not even distros, GUIs, etc [22:06] so nobody cared for g-s-t [22:06] i don't get it though, network-admin is a huge tool used in ubuntu [22:06] how is that just gonna be replaced [22:06] no, that's been long gone [22:06] replaced by Network Manager [22:06] I think there was talk about getting the fedora's user management tool to ubuntu [22:06] well, maybe not *long* gone [22:06] oh..they kinda look the same =D [22:07] I think it was removed for 8.10 [22:07] alkisg: right, yes [22:07] alkisg: but apparently it's pretty fedora-specific so will take a lot of work [22:07] is the system tools backend still going to be around? [22:07] alkisg: not fds .. ? [22:07] yanqui: I'm guessing no [22:07] yanqui: no, I've heard they're leaving, too :) [22:08] g-s-t-backend is mostly perl and nobody wanted to work on it [22:08] well.... if it's perl [22:08] that's a good reason [22:08] A C front-end for a perl back-end... terrific :P [22:08] It's usually the other way around [22:09] well, at least it's not mono :p [22:09] it should be a C backend and a python frontend [22:09] hahhaa [22:09] * yanqui nods [22:09] LaserJock: don't tell that to the easy-ltsp maintainer ;) wel lactually she's porting it to python as well [22:09] oh yeah, I need to talk to her [22:09] what if *we* pick up the project? [22:09] * yanqui opens up his notes [22:09] at least the parts that make sense to us? [22:09] Lns: what project? [22:10] LaserJock: gst [22:10] Lns, which one, easy-ltsp? [22:10] nono [22:10] Lns: nononono [22:10] * yanqui is going to head out for a smoke [22:10] brb [22:10] Lns: I honestly think we're better off starting from scratch [22:10] alkisg: well, what if we rewrite in pygtk? [22:10] in python probably [22:10] well yeah..i guess that's whta i meant [22:10] Lns, yup, that's fedora's tool [22:10] A good base in pygtk [22:10] hrm [22:11] * Lns goes to look at fedora [22:11] I mean, nobody really like Users and Groups that much for educational purposes [22:11] I kinda think this is our chance to design something that really works well for our users [22:11] * alkisg wishes KDE and Gnome were _one_, and we could use kuser :) [22:11] +1 laserjock [22:12] alkisg: you can use kuser outside of kde, i do it all the time [22:12] diversity is the spice of life [22:12] err...variety =p [22:12] right, but that's clearly not optimal [22:12] I think it even supports NIS and LDAP, doesn't it? [22:12] alkisg: yeah, ldap at least [22:12] additionally, I'd like to see an Educational Software Manager of some kind [22:13] as we're going to DVD I don't think it's really going to be possible for us to just drop every app on the user's machine [22:13] LaserJock: like the add-remove-programs but only for educational software? [22:13] kinda yea [22:13] as a first iteration we can use Add/Remove with a custom menu [22:14] I think Add/Remove is on it's way out too [22:14] not sure how long that will take [22:14] back [22:14] but something we'll probably have to keep in mind eventually [22:15] hows the project going? [22:16] i've often wondered why linuxes don't offer a basic os and then a add/remove program. OEM windows loads their computers up with software that "clutters" the drive and requires removal [22:17] Ahmuck: I guess you answered your question [22:17] well [22:18] Linux does offer that, almost every distro [22:18] hence why Ubuntu is one 1 CD [22:18] but if you consider having to download 1GB of software post-install, who wants that? :-) [22:22] LaserJock: so whats wrong with using add/remove programs for educational progs? [22:22] why a special manager? [22:23] * alkisg gotta go... Goodnight all [22:23] alkisg: later [22:24] yanqui: well, because Add/Remove just has a flat "Education" menu [22:24] LaserJock: how's the disertation? [22:24] yanqui: and many of the apps that we want to give people are scattered in other categories [22:24] Ahmuck: pretty good [22:24] ahh [22:24] Ahmuck: getting close to done I think [22:25] LaserJock: what about using metapackages? [22:25] so, last i knew, edubuntu was trying to "find itself". Has it found itself yet? [22:26] yanqui: well, we already do [22:26] yanqui: but again, you have to find them, etc. [22:26] and meta-packages don't offer a very clear view of the broader stuff [22:26] we can define core sets, etc. [22:26] * yanqui nods [22:26] but beyond that meta-packages become sort of tricky [22:27] because you have hard dependencies and somebody is bound to not like something [22:27] right [22:27] and even if you go with Recommends instead of Depends it's you still end up having to install a bunch of stuff you may-or-may-not want [22:27] Ahmuck: I think it's getting there yes [22:28] Ahmuck: there's been a fair amount of activity [22:28] Ahmuck: for instance, we talked to the Technical Board and they were fine with us going to a full distro and DVD [22:28] and also using Universe packages [22:32] !info kino [22:32] kino (source: kino): Non-linear editor for Digital Video data. In component main, is extra. Version 1.3.0-2.1ubuntu4 (jaunty), package size 4262 kB, installed size 9428 kB [22:32] LaserJock: How come kino is in the edubunut bugsquad packages [22:33] because it was a part of Edubuntu [22:33] oh [22:33] im'a get some sleep [22:33] night LaserJock [22:34] bencrisford: night [22:36] btw... cinelerra is a really good video editing suite, rivaling kino in many ways... should defintely be carried by edubuntu (at least as universe app) [22:36] btw... u guys see teh site I just launched.... linux for education [22:36] I think we need to do something about the GST suite going away..this would be perfect for us to cater to larger installations and do other neat tasks with other tools [22:37] Lns: we need to think about the scope of our goals and the resources we have avaliable [22:37] I know it might seem opensuse centric at the moment, but its meant to be for all distros... [22:37] is there anyone here who't like to be an admin and hlep edubuntize it a bit? [22:37] yanqui: yeah... :) well at least we should be keeping in touch with whoever is going to take over the project so we can contribute and hopefully get some of our stuff out there that way too [22:37] that doesnt mean replacing all opensuse terms with edubuntu, but to make sure its distro-agnostic [22:37] nubae: i saw your post, good work! =) [22:38] Lns: I agree, lets talk about this in the lns channel for a moment [22:38] nubae: yeah, I took a look [22:38] yanqui: k [22:38] Ive already got a couple of folks helping out, but would like to have the site carrying at least 100 courses by end of the month [22:38] nubae: interestingly we've got similar opportunities with the Ubuntu Learning Project [22:39] I'm not sure how to deal with the possibility of having 2 different places for similar content [22:39] well, lets not try to redevlop the wheel, lets cooperate and get a damn good portal for education [22:39] well, how is it similar [22:39] is ubuntu learning project moodle? [22:40] the main thing we are working on right now is restring moodle courses from open university [22:40] all of which are creative commons [22:42] yes, it's moodle [22:42] the Ubuntu Learning Project is primarily about learning how to use Ubuntu [22:43] but they consider learning about how to use Ubuntu in learning a part of that as well [22:44] linux-for-education seems much more specific to the subject [22:46] nubae: who's hosting this project? [22:46] cool so its like a subsection of linux for education... can we export the courses and put them under the Ubuntu based courses? [22:47] an individual heavily involved with openSuse... but I'd like to create mirrors [22:47] currently though, I do believe its private... ie, not direclty affiliated to any one company [22:47] it would be awesome to have it co-sponsored by the main Edu distros [22:48] You can see we filled up the IT courses [22:48] RichEd was wanting to do this a couple years ago [22:48] as a part of his Ubuntu in Education thing [22:48] 25 courses just on IT [22:48] but it never really got off the ground [22:48] then we platform specific stuff [22:49] well, its about putting ones nose to the grindstone [22:49] which I did for a week [22:49] check out the perfect suse desktop [22:49] that ook me a good 12 hours to do [22:50] but its abolutely great now, easily adaptable when needed [22:50] anyway, one could easily adapt that to edubuntu [22:50] nubae: did you get the emails about the Technical Board meeting? [22:50] ie.... its a guide to expand the base edubuntu/opensuse-edu [22:51] yes... but how do they affect me? wasnt quite sure about that [22:53]