LaserJockLns: the problem with red hat's tools are they are fairly red hat-specific00:16
LnsLaserJock: sure, but that's the case for any distro mostly00:16
Lnsno reason to avoid making it more distro agnostic00:16
LaserJocksure, it just makes it non-trivial to use their stuff00:16
Lnsunless people put the pressure on them to split up parts of the app so others can use it00:17
LaserJocki.e. I believe the Desktop Team has already looked at it and said it was iffy if it'd be worth using over starting from scratch00:17
Lnsjeez...that's too bad00:17
Lnswell at least we can use their UI? =)00:17
LaserJocklong term it sounded like maybe that's what will end up happening (using their tool)00:18
nubaemost opensuse stuff is totally gpl00:18
nubaehave u looked at some of their stuff?00:18
LaserJockbut it was going to take more work than the Desktop Team had00:18
nubaeI know its kinda integrated with yast00:18
LaserJocknot me personally00:18
nubaebut user managament might be able to be ripped out00:18
LaserJockbut I've talked with people who've looked at it00:18
LaserJockand Yast was worse than Fedora's stuff for being distro-specific00:18
LaserJockthe question might be how much we actually need00:19
nubaeI believe that... it works so well, it has to be reallly tied into the system00:19
LaserJockif we want to reuse lots of code then it makes sense00:19
LaserJockbut if we only want a small part it's maybe more trouble than it's worth00:19
LaserJockeither way it's not trivial but really needs to be worked on00:19
nubaethough yast used to be horrible, but one of the great things is its usable from teh command line as much as from the gui00:19
nubaewe'd need something like that for ubuntu... a terminal window based thingy a la midnight commander00:20
nubaeor gui based00:20
nubaethat way it works great for server and desktop environments00:21
LaserJockright yes00:21
LaserJockthat's why you have backend scripts/library00:21
LaserJockand then you can have either GUI or CLI UI00:21
nubaethe real problem comes with integration with 3rd party stuff though like ldap and samba00:21
nubaeboth of which are pretty much required00:22
nubaeand both of which are horrible with ubuntu00:22
Lnswell the thing is there's no "standard" for ldap groups, thats why you have so many different implementations00:22
nubaeI mean really really horrible00:22
LaserJockUsers and Groups is not great for that at all00:22
nubaeyeah but both redhat and novell seem to have done a good job00:22
Lnsany gui attempt to be completely general would fail at the hands of "you might as well craft your own from the shell"00:22
nubaejust picking one works ok I think00:22
LaserJockyes, they have the luxury of having paid peiole00:23
nubaesure but if their stuff is gpl, it can be copied and reused00:23
Lnswell it doesn't necessarily help the overall community when you tie your tools to your distro..but whatareyagonnado i guess00:23
LaserJockexcept it's often distro-specific00:23
nubaeI thik there its just a vanity thing... ubuntu wants to do its own thing00:23
LaserJockwe have the GPL'd software00:23
Lnsnubae: nah, *everyone* wants to do their own thing00:23
nubaesure, I'm just saying thats not always a good thing00:24
nubaereinventing the damn wheel all the time00:24
LaserJockthe Ubuntu Server Team is looking a lot at ldap/samba I believe00:24
LaserJockyeah, it sucks to have to keep doing this stuff over and over00:24
LaserJockpart of that whole "Linux is choice" bit00:24
Lnsif only there were GNU gui tools00:25
Lnsof course they'd probably all be written in the oldest widget set imaginable ;)00:25
Lnsremember linuxconf?00:25
Lnsi'd favor ncurses over gui00:26
LaserJockI like gui's :-)00:27
LaserJockor just plain CLI00:27
LaserJockI never really got into curses stuff very much00:27
LaserJockgranted most of my "UI" development has been curses ;-)00:28
nubaencurses and gui00:28
nubaewhy choose?00:29
LaserJockmy lovely data acquisition program is curses + pgplot00:29
LnsThe catch 22 is, once you have a 'universal gui' you become monolithic in nature, and that hinders development of new, possibly better ways of doing things00:29
LaserJockyou don't have to be universal00:29
LaserJockjust flexible00:29
nubaedamn damn... have to wake up in 3 hours... train ride at 5 in the morning :-(00:29
LaserJocknubae: cya00:29
Lnshahaha, by nubae =)00:29
LnsLaserJock: I guess so, huh.. it's all about 'parting out' the functions so anyone can get to them00:30
LaserJockI think a lot of it is looking at what you're doing and especially the assumptions you're making00:30
Lnsyeah..cater to your environment00:31
LaserJockif you're doing something and you need to make a big assumption00:31
LaserJockyou should perhaps look at a more generalized approach00:31
LaserJockbut for sure there's a balance00:32
Lnsof course00:32
LaserJockif you overgeneralize it's no use to anybody because you haven't gotten anything done :-000:32
Lnshopefully most of the generalization can be done 'under the hood'00:32
Lnshence the gnu tools we already have, and have had for ages00:32
LaserJocka lot of the unix/GNU philosophy has been to have small programs that do a specific task very well00:33
LaserJockand then later writing "glue" that pulls together the small tasks to do what you ultimately want to do00:34
LaserJockso I'd like to start with "add a user", "remove a user", "modify a user" ....00:34
LaserJockthen as things build we can use a CLI and/or GUI to put it all together into a Control Panel type thing00:35
LaserJockof course that's assuming we ever get that far ;-)00:35
Lnsso maybe write scripts to do the specifics we want (mass user add/modify/remove, etc.) that are simply wrapping around useradd/mod/del00:36
Lnsin the spirit of those underlying tools00:36
LaserJockright, that would be a first step00:37
Lnsthen making a gui around THAT would be that much easier00:37
LaserJockor perhaps use a python library instead of useradd/mod/del directly00:37
LaserJockwe know how to add/remove/modify users individually00:38
LaserJockwhat we're missing is how to do it on a mass scale00:38
LaserJockand from there how to do it in a user/teacher/admin friendly way00:38
Lnssure..well what about the simple 'for i in foo' method?00:38
Lnsi dunno, i'm thinking on a higher level than i should be probably00:39
Lnsi dont' know much of anything about the underlying libs00:39
LaserJockwell, you just need to check your assumptions00:39
LaserJockuseradd, etc. don't do LDAP, right?00:39
LaserJockso you're assuming local users, but given a set of usernames and passwords it exactly a for i in foo00:40
Lnsright...well you have to start somewhere00:41
Lnsyou can't assume everyone will use ldap either ;)00:41
LaserJockso that's why I want to collect the scripts that people are actually using00:41
Lnsldap users is such a mess00:41
LaserJockthen we can find commonalities and generalize00:41
Lnsfor sure00:41
erosaHi.I think it'd b a good idea to have al least a mentor in https://bugs.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+mentoring07:54
erosaI have the will to learn and help, but the few tries I made didn't have any sucess.07:56
tallis this a place for technical question about open office in Ubuntu 9.04 ?08:44
alkisgtall, I think it's more suited for #ubuntu08:45
alkisgBut you can also ask here, I don't think anyone would mind, I just don't know if you'll have enough feedback :)08:46
=== ogra_ is now known as ogra
stgraberhighvoltage: ping15:52
=== alkisg1 is now known as alkisg
jonathan1Has anyone recently upgraded to 9.04 with an on-board intel graphics chipset and have the graphics go crazy.  My graphics, and I am using that term loosely because it could be the video driver, looks like it it is only covering the top 2 inches of my monitor and it repeats a good half dozen times across.  Any ideas how to fix it anyone?18:26
jonathan1I understand that ubuntu, in general, has a long running issue with intel chipset.  Was curious if anyone else had the same problem that I did/do.18:32

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