[00:04] <Vantrax> ahh well, guess hes not around
[00:04] <Vantrax> just wanted to look at a few things that have happend while I was indisposed:P
[00:04] <Vantrax> Seems like there has been some intense debate over licensing
[00:05] <Vantrax> It also seems that our organisation needs to be improved and we need to get a structure documented and agreed on
[00:05] <Vantrax> as a matter of priority
[00:06] <cprofitt> Vantrax, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Notes/06182009
[00:06] <Vantrax> it also looks like we need to have someone 'in charge' moderating things within the board to guide discussion and moderate the conflicts.
[00:07] <Vantrax> yeah i saw that cprofitt, its linked on the agenda right?
[00:07] <cprofitt> yep
[00:07] <Vantrax> We have been having a few conflicts lately and things have gotten a bit out of hand a few times
[00:08] <Vantrax> we dont want to create a polarised environment where we each tend to our own extremes, we want to have a sensible discussion with moderated views. Too often lately things seem to be tending toward the extreme rather than meeting in the middle
[00:09] <Vantrax> this especially applies to licencing due to its central and prickly nature
[00:11] <cprofitt> A mediator might help with that...
[00:12] <Vantrax> pleia2: what do you think
[00:13] <cprofitt> I am not sure we can get a mediator that does not have an opinion on this...
[00:15] <Vantrax> I can see the benefit of NC, but it will be harder to work with. I can also see that BY-SA is easier, and better in line with the community standards.
[00:16] <Vantrax> problem is both have a good argument
[00:16] <Vantrax> I dont think it so importaint for the mediator not to have an opinon, but to put aside his or her opinions and play devils advocate if neccesary
[00:20] <cprofitt> I see that argument having more leeway than the one for ownership transfer
[00:24] <pleia2> sorry, got dragged into a phone call, will be back soon
[00:24] <Vantrax> i think the transfer of ownership was a misunderstanding in the way that CC works, we dont need ownership, we can still do everything we want to it except for relicensing it
[00:24] <Vantrax> Im not entirely sure of the need for relicensing
[00:25] <Vantrax> if there is a legal indemnity issue that should be explored with the FSF
[00:26] <Vantrax> thats kinda not the point tho, i think we need to look at having a nominated head of the board to moderate our discussions a bit, and to resolve conflicts
[00:26] <Vantrax> we need to get some proper advice for our licensing, but that can be resolved at the meeting tomorrow.
[00:32] <cprofitt> Vantrax, ownership may have been a misunderstanding...
[00:32] <cprofitt> it may not have.
[00:32] <cprofitt> Vantrax, I would add the nomination suggestion to the agenda
[00:33] <Vantrax> yes, we will need to try and understand what bodhi was getting at. More importaintly the reason behind his position
[00:33] <cprofitt> I can concede that as long as the reverse is true.
[00:34] <cprofitt> I think such exploration may better be done after the advice is given and via the mail list... as it allows for un-interrupted explanation of the position
[00:39] <Vantrax> probably, but it should be started here first. Also I think because we tend to understand everyones position but Bodhi's we should allow him to explain himself fully so we can understand where he is coming from. At this stage I feel I am missing something.
[00:39] <cprofitt> does that sound fair Vantrax ?
[00:43] <Vantrax> cprofitt: it does indeed
[00:44] <cprofitt> k
[00:44] <cprofitt> I am going to log for a bit... be back on in about an hour or so
[00:44] <pleia2> yeah, I think the ownership thing is a misunderstanding too
[00:44] <pleia2> so hopefully that can all get out in the open
[00:46] <Vantrax> yeah, just seems there has been too much fighting, and not enough discussion
[00:48] <pleia2> yeah, that's kinda why I backed off, we hit a few spots where only more information could help, so talking wasn't doing any good
[00:49] <pleia2> I understand and sympathize with the fact that bodhi has legal concerns, but until I understand precisely the nature of them it's hard to have a discussion about it
[00:56] <Vantrax> on that we agree
[00:57] <Vantrax> from what I understand there has been a series of heated arguments that went nowhere
[00:58] <pleia2> I don't know that they were that bad
[00:58] <pleia2> I never felt upset during any of the discussions
[00:59] <pleia2> I did say that I wouldn't give up copyright *and* be forced into an NC license, which I think upset bodhi
[01:01] <pleia2> but that's simply because as an author I like to retain some rights to my own material
[01:01] <pleia2> now that NC is mostly off the table, I don't think it's much of an issue anyway
[01:21] <Vantrax> also worth noting, bodhi hasnt been around since then
[01:22] <pleia2> actually he has, talked with doctormo and dinda quite a bit
[01:22] <pleia2> was asking where you were yesterday
[01:24] <Vantrax> ahh
[01:24] <Vantrax> hopefully he will show up later and i can poke him
[01:24]  * pleia2 nods
[01:56] <doctormo> Hello?
[01:56] <pleia2> hey doctormo
[02:06] <doctormo_> grr damn system76 laptop crashed again as I was reading the backlog
[02:06] <doctormo_> ok poke away
[02:06] <doctormo_> Vantrax: I hope your ok, we should get the theme done but not if you need to rest
[02:07] <Vantrax> heya mo
[02:07] <doctormo_> We should wait for the theme for announcements and such, but a team report so long as it's not blogged wouldn't be too bad I don't think
[02:07] <Vantrax> i need a header graphic and its done, just need a test server to tweak the theme
[02:07] <Vantrax> i havent been able to see what it actually looks like yet
[02:08] <Vantrax> its all blind coded
[02:08] <doctormo_> The copyright stuff has been heated and I think we've all learned a lot from it, but I wouldn't call on a captin for such a thing, if council members can't discuss, then what hope have we got of going with the CoC never mind the leadership CoC
[02:11] <cprofitt> Vantrax, bodhi put up a test server I thought
[02:11] <Vantrax> doctormo: its useful to have someone to moderate when necessary
[02:11] <Vantrax> cprofitt: it went down last i heard, he was rebuilding it
[02:11] <cprofitt> http://learn.bodhizazen.net/moodle/login/index.php
[02:11] <Vantrax> doctormo: ive had to do that with you and bodhi once already
[02:12] <cprofitt> its loading for me now
[02:12] <doctormo_> Vantrax: I thought the idea was that we all could moderate and come into an unfortunate situation as required
[02:12] <Vantrax> soudns good
[02:12] <doctormo_> part of the skills
[02:12] <Vantrax> seems like he did get it back up
[02:13] <Vantrax> doctormo: indeed, but we are also lacking some structure, and organisation which needs to be addressed
[02:14] <Vantrax> as with everything, just an idea. Feel free to shoot me down:P
[02:17] <doctormo_> Vantrax: It's an important idea, and I like the idea of apointed aribors. But I also feel that people like yourself who come into a fight in order to control things and settle the manner of the discussion should be able to do so through self authority, not one invested. This is for timezone reasons as much as it is about people being people and anyone could possibly get into a fight, even one nominated.
[02:18] <Vantrax> good point
[02:18] <doctormo_> Perhaps we should have a declarative, "This discussion seems to be getting heated, I'm going to watch to make sure no one steps out of line"
[02:19] <doctormo_> And then that in it's self gives you the position to manage it without getting embroiled.
[02:20] <doctormo> but again, just ideas, feel free to shoot me down :-D
[02:23] <Vantrax> not a bad idea again
[02:48] <cprofitt> doctormo, do really feel our conversations got that heated?
[03:01] <cprofitt> hey guys... wb
[03:03] <doctormo_> [21:57] <doctormo> Vantrax: OK I have a banner already for the UCLP
[03:03] <doctormo_> [21:57] <doctormo> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/learning/title.png
[03:03] <doctormo_> cprofitt: hey there
[03:04] <cprofitt> doctormo, do really feel our conversations got that heated?
[03:05] <cprofitt> doctormo, Vantrax - is this one of the items we need to do - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/MOTUReleaseCharter
[03:06] <Vantrax> thanks doctormo
[03:06] <doctormo> cprofitt: between me and botzi, or between you and botzi?
[03:07] <cprofitt> doctormo, either... I meant the group in general
[03:07] <cprofitt> so between he and I or you and I or you and him or ...
[03:07] <doctormo> Well, your argument wasn't as bad as mine, I have to admit I fouled up handling that one.
[03:07] <doctormo> Thanks to Vantrax we got it sorted, but I wouldn't like that kind of thing to happen again
[03:13] <cprofitt> k
[03:35] <Vantrax> cprofitt: i think something like that charter is not really required
[03:37] <cprofitt> k
[03:37] <cprofitt> do you have an example or a framework you would like to work from?
[03:37] <Vantrax> I think that will come under the structure & organisational roles stuff I wanted to discuss
[03:38] <Vantrax> We need to outline a structure (ala ubt) with how the team is structured, and the roles and responcibilities
[03:39] <cprofitt> I agree... just curious if there was an example?
[03:39] <Vantrax> dont know of one
[03:40] <cprofitt> k
[03:41] <Vantrax> Id rather do something that works for us instead of using something that worked for someone else
[03:42] <cprofitt> Vantrax, I am not saying straight copy...
[03:42] <Vantrax> i know
[03:42] <cprofitt> I was just thinking it would serve as an example of the type of document you want...
[03:42] <cprofitt> it would help us get on the same page perhaps
[03:44] <pleia2> would help us define some of the basic things that all teams need done, too
[03:45] <pleia2> like meetings and team reports and all that
[04:09] <bodhizazen> Vantrax, poke :)
[04:11] <cprofitt> pleia2, good points
[04:11] <cprofitt> hello bodhizazen
[04:11] <pleia2> evening bodhizazen
[04:12] <bodhizazen> hey everyone
[04:12] <bodhizazen> spent most of the day with my children, hiking and swimming
[04:12] <bodhizazen> you ?
[04:13] <cprofitt> dad's 65th was yesterday
[04:13] <cprofitt> father's day today
[04:15] <Vantrax> hiya bodhi
[04:16] <Vantrax> bodhizazen: lots of good discussion this morning
[04:19] <bodhizazen> Nice :)
[04:30] <doctormo> US Father's day right?
[04:31] <bodhizazen> yes
[04:31] <bodhizazen> my children all made a fathers day shirt
[04:31] <bodhizazen> that they wore, even Myah (almost 2 now)
[04:32] <bodhizazen> they have their # on the back (kid #1, etc) and each did a unique theme
[04:38] <cprofitt> well... good night all... early morning for me tomorrow
[04:38] <cprofitt> see you on the flip side.
[06:32] <dthacker> join #ubuntu-beginners
[06:32] <dthacker> argh.  need coffee
[07:50] <doctormo> dthacker: do you need something?
[09:01] <entered_am> gud day...
[09:02] <entered_am> any one could help me to connect for my ym
[18:03] <bodhi_zazen> 'lo everyone :)
[18:03] <bodhi_zazen> meeting later today ?
[18:05] <pleia2> yep
[18:11] <pleia2> there, sent out reminder :)
[18:11] <pleia2> and the ML seems to be working nicely \o/
[18:12] <doctormo> thanks for the reminder :-)
[21:39] <SAMER> HELLO
[21:39] <SAMER> I WANT TO CONNECT MY COMPUTER TO THE ENTERNET VIA BLUETOOTH
[21:39] <SAMER> ANY ONE CAN HELP
[22:29] <doctormo> no, not here, try #ubuntu
[22:46] <nhandler> doctormo: He left a while ago
[22:46] <doctormo> nhandler: Yea, I know, just wanted to say it as a sigh. Damn shouty, wrong channel people. :-/
[23:32] <cprofitt> hey Vantrax|Work
[23:41] <cprofitt> meeting in 19 minutes
[23:42]  * pleia2 nods
[23:45] <dthacker> argh, thought I had an hour.
[23:52] <pleia2> ok, I'm going to be a few minutes late
[23:52] <pleia2> I forgot about the whole eating thing
[23:54] <cprofitt> Vantrax|Work, did you add your items to the agenda for tonight?