[00:00] <robert_ancell> chrisccoulson: yeah, it's a bit complex!!
[00:00] <chrisccoulson> it is. i've nearly finished it, but the delta to debian is huge
[07:06] <pitti> Good morning
[08:08] <didrocks> Guten Tag pitti
[08:20] <seb128> hello there
[08:22] <didrocks> hey seb128
[08:22] <seb128> hey didrocks
[08:23] <pitti> hey didrocks, moin seb128
[08:23] <seb128> hey pitti
[08:29] <pitti> seb128: BTW, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PolicyKitOne shows that they mean it with the polkit-1 migration
[08:30] <pitti> so hopefully we can get rid of the old policykit during karmic
[08:31] <seb128> pitti, I was pondering forwarding this email too ;-)
[08:31] <seb128> pitti, subscribed to the GNOME d-d-l list too? ;-)
[08:31] <pitti> seb128: I'm not, no; davidz pointed it out to me yesterday evening, when I talked to him
[08:31] <pitti> seb128: what's d-d-l?
[08:32] <seb128> pitti, http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2009-June/msg00069.html for the record then it has details
[08:32] <seb128> pitti, the GNOME list where discussions about GNOME happen usually
[08:33] <didrocks> I have also bookmarked this link yesterday :)
[08:33] <pitti> seb128: thanks for the link, interesting
[08:33] <seb128> pitti, you're welcome
[08:51] <seb128> robert_ancell, hi
[08:51] <robert_ancell> seb128, hi
[08:51] <seb128> robert_ancell, is your anjuta sponsoring request ready to review?
[08:51] <seb128> robert_ancell, you let the bug as incomplete so it's not on the sponsoring list etc
[08:52] <robert_ancell> seb128: huats is going to finish it off
[08:52] <seb128> robert_ancell, and gnome-menus? you opened a bug, is that to claim work?
[08:52] <seb128> ok
[08:53] <robert_ancell> I opened gnome-menus by accident.  It needs someone more experience with the code to fix (I had a go but got lost quickly)
[08:53] <seb128> what is broken?
[08:54] <robert_ancell> seb128, just needs merging with Debian
[08:54] <seb128> hum ok, there is nothing special in the ubuntu changes I think but I can have a look
[08:54] <seb128> would be nice if you commented on those bugs if somebody needs to pick up so we know where we stand ;-)
[09:00] <seb128> robert_ancell, in any case the versions page is very useful ;-)
[09:01] <robert_ancell> seb128, I'm loving it, makes my life a lot easier to see what needs working on
[09:01] <seb128> indeed
[09:01] <seb128> it took a while to get the update on the server though since the box is still running dappetr
[09:01] <seb128> dapper
[09:01] <seb128> and there was no launchpadlib etc there
[09:01] <seb128> but didrocks fixed that to magically work now ;-)
[09:11] <didrocks> seb128: :-)
[09:11]  * seb128 hugs didrocks
[09:11] <didrocks> seb128: I added a little feature yesterday, but if you don't want to pull daily, there is no need :)
[09:11]  * didrocks hugs seb128 back
[09:11] <seb128> I'm pondering doing a bzr pull in the cron job
[09:11] <seb128> but I think it's better to do that manually for now
[09:12] <seb128> so we don't pull broken versions while nobody is there to look at the update etc
[09:12] <didrocks> yes, as we don't have a test suite to check trunk before updating it
[09:12] <seb128> updated
[09:12] <seb128> I don't think it's worth doing a testsuite
[09:12] <didrocks> seb128: thanks :)
[09:12] <seb128> it's not a production tool
[09:13] <didrocks> yes, it doesn't worth a testsuite
[09:13] <seb128> robert_ancell keeps adding components apparently ;-)
[09:13] <seb128> +                "gnome-desktio-sharp2":"gnome-desktop-sharp",
[09:13] <seb128> robert_ancell, ^ typo? ;-)
[09:13] <robert_ancell> seb128, err
[09:14] <robert_ancell> it's a new package. honest.
[09:14] <seb128> ahah
[09:14] <robert_ancell> as you said, not a production tool!
[09:14] <didrocks> seb128: talking about gnome-desktop-* do you have any time to review my split?
[09:14] <didrocks> robert_ancell: :)
[09:14] <seb128> didrocks, sure, where is it?
[09:14] <seb128> didrocks, you pinged me about it some time ago but it's not on the sponsoring list
[09:15] <didrocks> seb128: really? bug #223671
[09:16] <didrocks> u-m-s is subscribed :)
[09:16] <seb128> didrocks, nice title ...
[09:16] <seb128> didrocks, it's well down the list since the bug is not recent and the title is not clear
[09:16] <didrocks> seb128: I prefered to take an existing bug than opening a new one :)
[09:16] <seb128> ok, which explains why it slipped out
[09:16] <seb128> I will review it today
[09:16] <seb128> did you have questions on the merge?
[09:17] <didrocks> seb128: yes, the pastebin is here http://paste.ubuntu.com/201932/
[09:17] <seb128> didrocks, "- The debian maintainer only put a "Conflicts:" tags (not the usual conflicts/replaces). This seems logical, but how would you handle it?"
[09:17] <didrocks> you qnszered the "debug question"
[09:17] <seb128> what do you mean?
[09:17] <seb128> Conflicts,Replaces is correct as far as I know
[09:17] <seb128> didrocks, QWERTYERROR
[09:18] <seb128> ;-)
[09:18]  * didrocks hates his windows desktop :/
[09:18] <seb128> mvo, ^ is Conflicts,Replaces required when files move between binaries or Conflicts is enough?
[09:18] <didrocks> so, in azerty, the question was: the DM only used conflicts, not replaces
[09:19] <seb128> I would use Replaces
[09:19] <didrocks> so, adding extra diff to debian adding Replaces?
[09:19] <seb128> to avoid races in unpacking leading to overwrite errors
[09:19] <seb128> let's wait for mvo to reply, maybe it's not required nowadays
[09:20] <didrocks> ok
[09:20] <robert_ancell> bye all
[09:20] <didrocks> good night robert_ancell
[09:21] <seb128> didrocks, btw, http://packages.qa.debian.org/g/gnome-python-desktop/news/20090620T184326Z.html
[09:21] <seb128> didrocks, you might want to rebase on this one, they added python-evince too
[09:21] <mvo> seb128: replaces is enough usually if its just a file moving from on to the other
[09:21] <mvo> replaces: foo-data (<< version-where-the-split-happend)
[09:22] <didrocks> mvo: the DM only added "Conflicts" in splitting a package
[09:23] <didrocks> seb128: look at the control.in file. I added python-evince :)
[09:24] <didrocks> (so, I probably based the package in the right time ;))
[09:24] <didrocks> seb128: no libevince-dev btw. So, I have to add it
[09:25] <didrocks> (as a build-dep)
[09:25] <seb128> didrocks, no, I think you did that yourself before them
[09:25] <seb128> didrocks, they splitted evince differently
[09:25] <seb128> we don't have a libevince-dev
[09:25] <didrocks> oh, right, we have libevdocument-dev and libevview-dev
[09:26] <didrocks> (coffee time, see you in 10 min :))
[09:27] <seb128> see you
[09:28] <seb128> didrocks, "(__init__.py for instance in python-totem-plparser)" seems a debian bug
[09:28] <seb128> "- what is relibtoolize?" ... a way to update autotools generated files  in the source?
[09:28] <seb128> dunno about the .defs exactly, is that revelant for the update?
[09:38] <seb128> didrocks, sorry for the duplicated comments on the bug launchpad is not smart about retries as bugzilla is
[09:49] <didrocks> seb128: they only remove empty __init__.py files (0.90.2 in http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/p/python-support/python-support_1.0.3/changelog)
[09:50] <didrocks> .defs was for general understanding, no matter :)
[09:50] <seb128> didrocks, ok, your current package looks ok to me, could you rebase on the current version and maybe make python-gnome-desktop depends on python-evince?
[09:50] <didrocks> and "relibtoolize patches" are just regenerated by autoreconf
[09:50] <didrocks> seb128: of course, I saw you comment. will do :)
[09:50] <seb128> thanks!
[09:50] <didrocks> so, I kept the -doc package?
[09:50] <seb128> do you still have some questions I didn't reply to?
[09:51] <didrocks> just the one before :)
[09:51] <seb128> what is debian doing for this one?
[09:51] <didrocks> they put the doc in each package
[09:51] <seb128> hum
[09:51] <didrocks> (3 packages IIRC have the doc)
[09:51] <seb128> it's small enough?
[09:52] <seb128> hum
[09:52] <didrocks> yes, it's rather small
[09:52] <seb128> thinking
[09:52] <didrocks> take your time, I will have the time only this evening :)
[09:52] <seb128> I would say to keep it things the way you did now
[09:52] <didrocks> ok, just rebase it for now
[09:52] <seb128> the documentation coverage will probably improve
[09:52] <seb128> and we don't want to use CD space for that
[09:53] <didrocks> it's understandable :)
[09:53] <seb128> it's easy enough to install the extra binary
[09:53] <seb128> we can change later if required
[09:53] <didrocks> ok, perfect. That's what I thought and why I kept it :)
[09:54] <didrocks> I will ping you when done
[09:54] <seb128> good job!
[09:54] <didrocks> thanks ;)
[09:54] <seb128> ok, changing box to my laptop and doing some testing, be back in 15 minutes or so
[09:54] <seb128> brb
[10:05] <mat_t> asac, ping
[10:05] <asac> mat_t: hi!
[10:06] <asac> dobey: is your ping still active?
[10:07] <asac> mat_t: so whats the experience teams suggestion for bug 386900
[10:08] <mat_t> asac: I think the notify-osd spec suggests "Wired network" as a generic title for wired connections...
[10:09]  * mat_t looks it up
[10:10] <asac> mat_t: quite a lot desktop systems have two NICs by default
[10:12] <mat_t> asac: I'm not sure if  it is important for most users to know which one established the connection...
[10:12] <mat_t> asac: if I understand that correctly
[10:14] <mat_t> asac: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD#network-manager Once you are connected to a wired network, a notification bubble should appear with the connected wired icon, title ?Wired network?, and body ?Connection established?. (Launchpad #330571)
[10:15] <mat_t> asac: so what are the exact implications of a 2-NIC situation?
[10:17] <asac> mat_t: i dont know. i just think that we cannot just name it "Wired network" ... because if you plug in two cables you need a second name ;)
[10:18] <mat_t> asac: I see, in this case it should just be: Wired network 2, Wired network 3 etc
[10:21] <andreasn> you can connect two cables? where do you buy those machines?
[10:22] <Laney> my machine is on two networks
[10:22] <Laney> one is called "the internet" :)
[10:24] <mat_t> Laney: we're discussing the case when the network name is assigned automatically, and is meaningless for most users: https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/386900
[10:26] <Laney> mat_t: Yeah, I was addressing andreasn there. I agree with you, fwiw.
[10:26] <Laney> a nice addition would be some kind of indication that a network connection gets you to the internet
[10:27] <asac> Laney: its hard to figure that out
[10:27] <asac> unless you do high level pinging
[10:27] <Laney> yeah no doubt
[10:28] <asac> anyway. i will talk to NM folks and see what they think
[10:28] <mat_t> asac: cool, thanks
[10:28] <Laney> vista does it, but I don't know how their implementation works
[10:29] <mat_t> Laney: yes it would be nice to have, but only if we can be dead-accurate
[10:30] <Laney> I can't think of a good way besides pinging
[10:35] <Laney> "The Encoding key is deprecated. It was used to specify whether keys of type localestring were encoded in UTF-8 or in the specified locale" from the desktop entry spec
[10:35] <Laney> are we following this?
[10:36] <seb128> Laney: in which sense?
[10:36] <Laney> we have changes over debian to do this
[10:36] <Laney> should I drop them?
[10:36] <seb128> it's not worth a distro delta if that's the question
[10:36] <Laney> to add encoding
[10:36] <seb128> adding the encoding is the wrong way
[10:37] <Laney> no, we had previously added the encoding as an ubuntu-specific change
[10:37] <seb128> things are encoding in utf-8 nowadays and the key is not useful
[10:37] <seb128> that's wrong
[10:37] <Laney> so I'll drop those changes now
[10:37] <seb128> yes
[10:37] <Laney> ok thanks
[10:37] <seb128> you're welcome
[10:37] <seb128> huats: lut!
[10:37] <huats> hello everyone !
[10:37] <lool> pitti: Do you have .debs for http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20520 ?
[10:37] <huats> seb128:  o/
[10:38] <pitti> lool: no, just built it locally with the patch
[10:38] <lool> pitti: I'm running amd64 and my bug relates to this one, but it's not 100% clear it's the same one
[10:38] <lool> pitti: Pristine linux tree, or Ubuntu's?
[10:38] <pitti> lool: took me a while to figure out the best/fastest way how to build this, I documented it at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelCustomBuild
[10:38] <pitti> lool: against ubuntu tree (-10.12)
[10:38] <pitti> lool: want that .ko from me?
[10:39] <lool> Sure
[10:39] <pitti> http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/tmp/i915.ko
[10:39] <pitti> lool: amd64, 2.6.30-10.12
[10:39] <pitti> I just NEWed that, you  might not have it yet
[10:44] <lool> pitti: Thanks
[11:13] <pitti> lool: works for you?
[11:14] <asac> Riddell: so konqueror cannot read slashdot? ;) fun!
[11:14] <lool> pitti: Still upgrading
[11:14] <lool> Didn't do my daily laptop update this morning and lots of updates + slow DSL
[11:21] <pitti> inbox zero!
[11:21] <lool> I wish
[11:21]  * pitti phews
[11:25] <Laney> pidgin isn't on versions.html
[11:25] <seb128> Laney: it is, click on the "+"
[11:25] <Laney> oh, what does that mean?
[11:25] <seb128> "show extra packages"
[11:26] <seb128> is somebody else having issue on edge recently?
[11:26] <Laney> what kind of issues?
[11:26] <seb128> combo boxes values can't be changed often
[11:26] <seb128> I've to refresh the page to be able to use those
[11:26] <Laney> I have some icon overlapping problem
[11:26] <seb128> that too
[11:26] <Laney> not seen the other one
[11:29] <lool> pitti: Doesn't work for me
[11:29] <lool> I'm not really surprized as someone claimed it worked in rc5, but it didn't for me
[11:38] <pitti> it worked well for me during allhands/UDS
[13:17] <mpt> mvo, did that bug with update-manager appearing very shortly after you dismiss it get an SRU in the end?
[13:17] <mvo> mpt: yes
[13:18] <mpt> mvo, do you have the number handy or some search terms? I tried to find it a couple of days ago and didn't
[13:21] <mvo> mpt: should be bug #369198
[13:21] <mpt> thanks!
[13:23] <mpt> mvo, why is it "Fix Committed" rather than Released? Does that mean it's still in jaunty-proposed?
[13:23] <mvo> mpt: each sru needs someone doing a sru-verification
[13:23] <mvo> mpt: looks like none was performed here
[13:24] <huats> seb128: 390616 for bug-buddy ... I am back on board :)
[13:24] <seb128> huats: excellent!
[13:25] <huats> otherwise : i have noticed that when you create a bug using the version.html page, it creates a bug saying : "Update to 2.27.1" by instance but it might be better to have : "update package_name to 2.27.1"
[13:26] <mpt> mvo, looks like it's not in Release yet <https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/update-notifier>
[13:26] <mvo> mpt: it should be in jaunty-proposed
[13:27] <mpt> it is
[13:28] <seb128> huats: why, the bug is already on the right component?
[13:33] <huats> seb128: yes, but when you read the email bug activity  it makes more sense to me
[13:33] <seb128> emails should perhaps have "[component] title" as title
[13:34] <huats> indeed in that case it is not necessary, but  I think the reference is quite useful
[13:35] <SiDi> mpt: will the auto-open behaviour really be kept ?
[13:36] <seb128> huats: I've no strong opinion but I think the issue is not specific to upgrade bugs and we use the webpage not email to track sponsoring
[13:36] <mpt> SiDi, "really"?
[13:36] <seb128> huats: you are welcome to send a patch though :-à
[13:36] <seb128> ;-)
[13:37] <SiDi> mpt: i find it way too intrusive to have update-manager appearing from nowhere
[13:37] <SiDi> i understand that canonical may want to "force" users to do security updates
[13:37] <chrisccoulson> SiDi - you can still disable it and restore the old behaviour
[13:37] <SiDi> but imo it should open after a much more important delay
[13:37] <huats> seb128: sure
[13:38] <huats> it was just my opinion when I have used it :)
[13:38] <tgpraveen> SiDi: mpt I agree it is a bad way to behave for update mgr
[13:38] <SiDi> chrisccoulson: average end user wont restore the old behaviour by using gconf, average end user will remove update-notifier and forget about his updates
[13:39] <SiDi> its just what happened with vista's UAC.
[13:39] <tgpraveen> SiDi: +1
[13:39] <huats> seb128: any thing  to be done ?
[13:39] <chrisccoulson> well, i can't comment on that, because i don't really know what the "average user" will do, and there doesn't seem to be any hard figures to back up what you say
[13:39] <seb128> huats: I've bee told you are still updating anjuta?
[13:39] <mpt> SiDi, slow down, you're saying incorrect things too quickly to correct them all :-)
[13:39] <huats> or can I do give a look at anjuta to help robert
[13:39] <huats> seb128:  let me finish my sentences :)
[13:39] <chrisccoulson> i just disabled the old behaviour because i detest the new behaviour
[13:40] <chrisccoulson> **enabled
[13:40] <seb128> huats: lol
[13:40] <SiDi> mpt: i let you correct me on all of them then :p
[13:40] <seb128> huats: doing anjuta would be useful, it's not installable right now due to the gdl changes
[13:40] <huats> seb128: so I'll give a look at it
[13:40] <mpt> SiDi, Canonical does not want to "force" users to do anything, the "average end user" has no idea that something called "update-notifier" even exists, and nothing similar happened with UAC.
[13:40] <seb128> huats: excellent!
[13:42] <SiDi> mpt: the comparisation with UAC is because UAC is also a feature meant to "enhance security" (cause i suppose the goal here is to make users aware of security updates as fast as possible), but an intrusive feature
[13:43] <mpt> SiDi, UAC is much more similar to gksudo than it is to update-manager.
[13:45] <SiDi> mpt: except its easier to disable uac than gksudo :p my point is that if someone finds out that disabling update-notifier stops this behaviour, he'll spread the word, while  the correct thing to do (for this user who doesnt want popups) would be to turn the behaviour to the old one instead of disabling update notifications
[13:51] <kenvandine> pitti, ping
[13:52] <pitti> hey kenvandine
[13:52] <kenvandine> wanted to talk about the empathy/farsight issue
[13:52] <kenvandine> so it isn't optional, that dep has to be there... they only need two plugins from -bad
[13:52] <kenvandine> both are likely candidates to move to -good soonish
[13:53] <kenvandine> but not likely to be before karmic
[13:53] <kenvandine> how do you feel about creating -plugins-bad-liveadder type packages?
[13:53] <kenvandine> and make -plugins-bad recommend them?
[13:53] <kenvandine> so then we only pull in the little pieces we need
[13:54] <pitti> kenvandine: that doesn't help, because it would still pull in a plethora of bad packages into main as build dependencies
[13:54] <kenvandine> sigh
[13:54] <pitti> assuming that yuo want to split them out into separate binary packages
[13:54] <kenvandine> that was my thought
[13:54] <kenvandine> but yeah...
[13:54] <pitti> kenvandine: would we have the option to split out the entire farsight support?
[13:54] <kenvandine> no
[13:55] <kenvandine> i asked already
[13:55] <pitti> I wondered why everything else is so modular, but farsight is tightly depended on by empathy itself
[13:55] <kenvandine> they aren't willing to do that
[13:55] <kenvandine> they want it to be voip... no matter what
[13:56] <pitti> hm, so they firmly depend on something that the gstreamer upstreams explicitly consider bad
[13:56] <kenvandine> yeah
[13:56] <kenvandine> well
[13:56] <kenvandine> they are pretty well supported
[13:56] <kenvandine> those two
[13:56] <kenvandine> and destined for -good
[13:57] <pitti> kenvandine: can we split the source of -bad and only build these two codecs, with avoiding all those build deps for the other codecs in main?
[13:57] <kenvandine> maybe
[13:57] <kenvandine> let me give that a try
[13:58] <kenvandine> how would you name the source?
[13:58] <pitti> gstreamer-plugins-farsight or so?
[13:58] <pitti> or just like the actual codec names
[13:58] <kenvandine> ok
[13:59] <kenvandine> individual plugins then
[13:59] <pitti> it's a PITA to maintain, though
[13:59] <kenvandine> yeah
[13:59] <kenvandine> but shouldn't be permanent... famous last words :)
[14:00] <pitti> we also need gstreamer0.10-nice, but that doesn't sound so bad
[14:00] <Zdra> at least gst-nice in not in gst-ugly package... /me --> []
[14:02] <seb128> kenvandine, pitti: can we try helping upstream on the move to good?
[14:03] <pitti> that would certainly be nice, but isn't that a matter of "JFDI"?
[14:03] <kenvandine> seb128, they want to make an API change before them
[14:03] <kenvandine> then
[14:03] <pitti> or is there more to it than just moving the source?
[14:03] <kenvandine> more to it
[14:03] <kenvandine> they are getting to where they are well supported... but want to make API changes before moving it to -good
[14:03] <kenvandine> they have more latitude to change stuff in -bad :)
[14:04] <seb128> right
[14:04] <seb128> that change start being a lot of efforts I'm wondering if that's worth the work
[14:05] <seb128> indications so far seems to indicate pidgin is still nearer of user expectations
[14:08] <tgpraveen> seb128: if that is in karmic, then empathy would provide awesome features by the time of lts
[14:09] <seb128> karmic is not a lts and which ones?
[14:10] <tgpraveen> video chat using solely floss software, telepathy tubes brings in a lot of potential features,etc etc. I was talking abt karmic+1
[14:10] <tgpraveen> as lts
[14:11] <seb128> lts is probably not a cycle to add those things
[14:11] <seb128> the framework is good and modular for sure
[14:11] <seb128> and I'm sure lot of cool things will come
[14:12] <seb128> but right now there is no real use of it and empathy sucks at basic IM features sometime
[14:12] <seb128> I'm not sure the focus is right, ie adding cool mapping things and new libraries is cool
[14:12] <seb128> but that's probably not what IM users are looking for to chat
[14:14] <dobey> asac: nah. i think i got the answer. thanks
[14:14] <cassidy> pitti: kenvandine: gstreamer-plugins-farsight is a really poor name. That's the name of an old (farsight 1 related) package
[14:15]  * asac lunch time
[14:15] <tgpraveen> seb128: while I agree that mapping should not have been the focus right now, but like you say lts cycle is not good to add new software
[14:15] <tgpraveen> that is why it is being done in karmic cycle
[14:16] <seb128> thanks but I know that, I'm the one who drafted this spec
[14:16] <seb128> and I'm working on the ubuntu desktop since warty
[14:16] <tgpraveen> so that by karmic+1(which is most probably) lts we will have a im client
[14:16] <tgpraveen> which will get basic im features by then
[14:16] <tgpraveen> ok
[14:16] <seb128> I see no indication right now that efforts are spent on making empathy work great for all small im feature on msn, yahoo, etc
[14:17] <seb128> I see rather work done on adding new things, ie mapping, vnc, etc
[14:17] <pitti> well, I don't think the -bad issue alone should stop us; we can solve this, and the workaround, although ugly, will be temporary
[14:17] <seb128> which are cool but should come at the next step imho
[14:17] <pitti> what is "mapping"?
[14:17] <pitti> geolocation?
[14:18] <seb128> yes
[14:18] <seb128> sorry for the incorrect wording
[14:18] <seb128> btw that's a new extra depends coming
[14:18] <pitti> (yeah, saw that)
[14:18] <pitti> msn isn't working still? I thought that would work through libpurple?
[14:18] <cassidy> seb128: we made a telepathy-butterfly release last week fixing lot of nasty issues
[14:18] <seb128> libchamplain depends on clutter too
[14:19] <seb128> that start being an explosion of depends for an im client
[14:19] <kenvandine> seb128, we don't have to enable the champlain stuff...
[14:19] <seb128> yet
[14:20] <kenvandine> cassidy, yeah... i was naming it gst-plugins-liveadder
[14:20] <kenvandine> etc
[14:20] <cassidy> note that Empathy is more than a simple IM client and all these deps are optional and part of the GNOME stack (or should reach it soonish)
[14:21] <Zdra> seb128: part of the problem is that msn/yahoo has only users, no sane developer care about those protocols
[14:22] <seb128> Zdra: but they work mostly fine in pidgin
[14:22] <seb128> cassidy: being part of GNOME doesn't mean we have CD space for everything
[14:23] <cassidy> seb128: I know that. My point was: expect more GNOME apps depending on them in the futur
[14:24] <seb128> I'm aware of that and tracking changes ;-)
[14:24] <seb128> gnome-games is going to clutter too for example
[14:25] <cassidy> note that I'm not advocating Empathy by default at all cost. I prefer to have a full package (with all deps) available in universe than a crippled one installed by default
[14:25] <kenvandine> cassidy, we should be able to work around the farsight problem
[14:26] <kenvandine> but it seems it is more of a concern about the msn support
[14:26] <cassidy> MSN support is indeed, far to be as good as it should be
[14:26] <kenvandine> cassidy, since the last release of butterfly, is it better than haze?
[14:26] <cassidy> kenvandine: since the last release it actually works with recent empathy :)
[14:26] <kenvandine> a couple weeks ago it didn't work at all for me
[14:27] <cassidy> any idea when this pkg will be synced with Debian btw ?
[14:27] <kenvandine> butterfly?
[14:27] <cassidy> yep
[14:27] <kenvandine> seb128: ^^
[14:27] <kenvandine> could you do that so we can test it?
[14:28] <kenvandine> hey rickspencer3
[14:28] <seb128> I did an autosync run this morning but it stopped just before that one
[14:28] <seb128> will do the second part now
[14:28] <kenvandine> thx
[14:28] <Zdra> kenvandine: +1 for having Empathy in universe if moving in main means droping features
[14:28] <rickspencer3> good morning kenvandine
[14:29] <cassidy> kenvandine: lot of components need sync actually: http://people.collabora.co.uk/~cassidy/tp-versions.html
[14:29] <kenvandine> Zdra, i don't want to drop versions
[14:29] <kenvandine> seb128, can you also sponsor my empathy bump that includes the indicator patch?
[14:30] <seb128> kenvandine: somebody else did the update rebased on the new version from debian I think
[14:30] <seb128> I need to look at that
[14:31] <kenvandine> doesn't look like it has been done
[14:31] <kenvandine> it is still old
[14:31] <kenvandine> 2.27.3 is much better
[14:31] <kenvandine> and of course we prefer having the indicator :)
[14:32] <cassidy> seb128: yeah bigon did it
[14:32] <kenvandine> damn... i really need to look at my email filters...
[14:36] <pitti> rickspencer3: hello
[14:36] <pitti> rickspencer3: unfortunately I have an appointment this evening, so that I have to leave at 1830 (i. e. when the meeting starts)
[14:36] <rickspencer3> pitti: ok
[14:36] <rickspencer3> that iwll give us a chance to discuss you
[14:36] <rickspencer3> j/k
[14:36] <pitti> rickspencer3: would that be okay?
[14:37] <pitti> heh
[14:49] <seb128> cassidy: telepathy* synced now
[14:49] <cassidy> seb128: awesome, thanks!
[14:49] <seb128> you're welcome
[14:50] <seb128> cassidy: do you know if there is some stats on what protocol are most used by county or something similar online?
[14:50] <cassidy> seb128: no idea
[15:00] <seb128> would somebody here be interested to work on sru updates for pidgin to fix the yahoo issue?
[15:01] <seb128> Laney: I sponsoring your karmic update
[15:01] <Laney> seb128: At work now, and got friends over tonight.
[15:01] <Laney> maybe much later, or tomorrow
[15:01] <Laney> unless someone else does
[15:01] <seb128> ok
[15:01] <Laney> thanks for sponsoring
[15:02] <seb128> you're welcome, thanks for the update ;-)
[15:03] <seb128> huats: there?
[15:04] <seb128> huats: is your bug-buddy dfsg tarball somewhere?
[15:11] <huats> seb128: here :)
[15:12] <huats> seb128: let me put it somewhere :)
[15:12] <seb128> thanks
[15:13] <huats> seb128: http://www.reponses.net/ubuntu/bug-buddy_2.27.1+dfsg.orig.tar.gz
[15:14] <huats> seb128: I should have put it in the bug ?
[15:14] <huats> (just to know I mean)
[15:14] <seb128> huats: no that's ok
[15:14] <seb128> you mean the tarball?
[15:14] <seb128> yes because that's not the upstream one
[15:14] <huats> yep
[15:14] <huats> ok
[15:15] <huats> I'll remember that
[15:15] <seb128> you repacked it to drop the non dfsg files right?
[15:15] <huats> exactly
[15:15] <seb128> ok so yes add the tarball to the bug next time ;-)
[15:15] <Laney> or add a get-orig-source rule
[15:17] <seb128> Laney: the upstream tarball is no dfsg free so it get repacked, how do the get-orig-source will get the tarball from huat's disk?
[15:18] <Laney> seb128: The get-orig-source gets it from GNOME and then does whatever it needs to do to make it dfsg free
[15:18] <Laney> and then repacks back into a tarball
[15:18] <Laney> s/GNOME/upstream/
[15:19] <seb128> Laney: how does it work?
[15:19] <Laney> it's just a makefile target in rules
[15:19] <seb128> Laney: ie how do you describe the changes to do to the tarball?
[15:20] <seb128> ok, could be something to consider for the next update
[15:20] <Laney> rm bug-buddy-x.y.x/blah/blah.c
[15:20] <Laney> it's useful for people to be able to recreate the tarball, and as documentation
[15:20] <seb128> seems so indeed
[15:31] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i'll finally have the gnome-panel update ready for you to check later when i finish work
[15:31] <chrisccoulson> i did it late last night but havent tried installing it or testing it yet
[15:48] <dobey> pitti: this guy can't be serious about listing all the autotools files and crap in debian/copright eh? i'm looking at nautilus-cd-burner and it totally doesn't do that...
[15:50] <pitti> dobey: no, autotools generated files are generally not mentioned in copyright
[15:51] <dobey> and i don't generally see people specifying a license for the "debian packaging"
[15:51] <dobey> which he suggests also
[15:51] <dobey> (and which makes absolutely no sense at all to me)
[15:52] <Laney> that does generally happen IME
[15:53] <Laney> people usually release their packaging contributions under the same license as the software itself
[15:53] <kenvandine> dobey, yes... there should be license for the debian packaging
[15:54] <dobey> Laney: i have very rarely seen any explicit mention as such
[15:54] <Laney> really?
[15:55] <dobey> and it makes absolutely no sense as there is almost nothing in the packaging which would really be protected under a copyright
[15:56] <dobey> and it's only this one package i've done that i've even had someone mention it
[15:56] <dobey> none of the others have done that
[15:58] <Laney> how do you know it's not copyrightable everywhere?
[15:58] <Laney> I just picked some random packages from my work directory and they all had this info
[16:00] <dobey> i mean, any N independent people creating packages are going to come up with almost exactly the same bytes. the only pieces that are really going to differe are the Maintainer: and Description: fields of the control file.
[16:00] <Laney> I don't think that matters
[16:00] <Laney> but I'm not an archive admin or ftpmaster
[16:01] <pitti> dobey: don't worry about copyright too much
[16:02] <pitti> dobey: dholbach's fourth point is the most important (list of copyright/authors and gpl stub), the rest is "nitpicks"
[16:02] <dobey> right
[16:02] <dobey> well i fixed per dholbach's comments
[16:02] <Laney> I usually put "The Debian packaging is (c) Iain Lane <laney@ubuntu.com>, and is licensed under the whatever, see /usr/share/common-licenses/blah'
[16:02] <Laney> + year ofc
[16:02] <Laney> anyway, bye bye
[16:03] <pitti> right, and the GPL stub
[16:23] <asac> awe: hi
[16:25] <seb128> chrisccoulson: ok cool
[16:40] <mvo> seb128: what was the command to get the text config for the current stuff that gnome-keyboard-propoerties sets?
[16:40]  * mvo knew it ones, but forgot it again
[16:42] <seb128> mvo: (on phone)
[16:48] <seb128> mvo: re
[16:49] <jcastro> hey seb128
[16:49] <seb128> mvo: gconftool -R /desktop/gnome/peripherals/keyboard/kbd ?
[16:49] <seb128> jcastro: hello!
[16:49] <jcastro> seb128: daniel, pedro, and I were thinking about how best to get people to "adopt an upstream"
[16:49] <jcastro> that is, having a place where people can learn to get involved with a certain package they care about
[16:50] <jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream/Contacts
[16:50] <mvo> thanks seb128!
[16:50] <jcastro> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream/Banshee
[16:50] <jcastro> the idea would be that these pages would be where we could work with an upstream on whatever
[16:50] <jcastro> and have a place where you can say "if you want to work on empathy start here, read this, them come back to me when you're ready" kind of thing
[16:51] <seb128> hum
[16:51] <seb128> I'm not sure
[16:52] <jcastro> seb128: ok, I will do these three, and then we'll see how it works out
[16:52] <jcastro> I don't want it stepping on like those working grid pages you guys keep of all the desktop stuff
[16:52] <seb128> the hard part is not really to get those informations, I would say that if you don't the projects enough to find those informations you probably don't know it enough to act as a gateway between distro and upstream on it either
[16:53] <jcastro> well, the list o links is just what we came up with, ideally that would be like best practice
[16:53] <seb128> ie the hard part is to know upstream and ubuntu well enough to do the gateway work
[16:53] <seb128> figuring the bug tracker etc is a 5 minutes work
[16:53] <seb128> if you are not motivated enough to figure that chance are low that you will do good work there
[16:53]  * jcastro nods
[16:54] <seb128> jcastro: the desktop grid is just an indicator of where we stand
[16:54] <seb128> that's orthogonal, people can easily join and let us know they focus on something
[16:54] <jcastro> seb128: I am willing to bet that some people would be willing to do this work but just don't know how.
[16:55] <jcastro> seb128: I think it's worth investigating to see if people can get into this.
[16:55] <seb128> don't worry about stepping on other people workspace
[16:55] <seb128> right
[16:55] <seb128> but I would not do project specific pages
[16:56] <seb128> rather let people joining do that
[16:56] <seb128> you could get a guideline with steps
[16:56] <seb128> - subscribe to the ubuntu product
[16:56] <seb128> - find the upstream bug tracker
[16:56] <jcastro> this is the start of the non-project specific stuff: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream/Contacts
[16:56] <seb128> - figure if upstream does IRC, has wiki instruction for debugging, etc
[16:56] <jcastro> I have a bunch to add to that
[16:56] <jcastro> right
[16:56] <jcastro> I see what you're saying.
[16:57] <seb128> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream/Contacts is a good start
[16:57] <Laney> people should get integrated with the upstream communities early
[16:57] <seb128> but don't try to write page for project
[16:57] <seb128> let people joining do that they will learn while write the page
[16:57] <seb128> maybe a sort of template for it
[16:58] <seb128> that will make them look for the bug tracker, look to the launchpad project page, etc
[16:58] <jcastro> seb128: I am making a template, I just happened to do the first page (along with another guy)
[16:58] <jcastro> but I see what you mean
[16:58] <seb128> good learning exercise
[16:58] <jcastro> good point, we hadn't thought of that
[17:00] <bryce> morning
[17:02] <bryce> jcastro, interesting; in Inkscape we called such people liaisons
[17:04] <jcastro> bryce: I have been struggling to find a name for it
[17:04] <jcastro> "ambassadors" is taken by fedora
[17:04] <kenvandine> jcastro: pimps?
[17:04] <kenvandine> :)
[17:05] <jcastro> I wanted something like "brutal upstream metal heads"
[17:05] <jcastro> but no one ever likes my ideas
[17:05] <kenvandine> hehe
[17:05] <kenvandine> jcastro, me either )
[17:05] <kenvandine> :)
[17:05] <evanrmurphy> morning
[17:05] <dobey> jcastro: is that sort of like BOFH?
[17:06] <hggdh> jcastro, must the upstream contact be an Ubuntu member?
[17:06] <hggdh> it does not scale...
[17:07] <jcastro> hggdh: ideally, if the person is representing ubuntu to an upstream then they should at least be involved with the project
[17:07] <evanrmurphy> meeting in 25 minutes, right?
[17:07] <kenvandine> member is the best way to identify involvement
[17:07] <kenvandine> evanrmurphy, yup
[17:07] <jcastro> I'm not going to complain if someone is doing it but doesn't want to become a member
[17:07] <hggdh> the point is we have about 500 members, and thousands of projects
[17:08] <jcastro> hggdh: well, we can concentrate on the big ones
[17:08] <kenvandine> hggdh, not all projects need them
[17:08] <kenvandine> many of them just take care of themselves
[17:08] <dobey> pitti: hey. just uploaded new ubuntuone-storage-protocol to REVU with the watch file
[17:08] <hggdh> k
[17:08] <kenvandine> dobey, great
[17:08] <dobey> pitti: and ubuntuone-client with a watch file and a few more nitpick fixes
[17:10] <pitti> dobey: cool, thanks; will review ASAP (tomorrow morning, need to leave soon)
[17:11] <dobey> ok, cool
[17:13] <seb128> hggdh: there is no real need to get a contact for packages which didn't get updated for years and have 0 bugs ;-)
[17:13] <pitti> ok, I'm off for today
[17:14] <pitti> see you tomorrow!
[17:14] <hggdh> seb128, oh, I agree with that. My point is that we might be setting the bar too high. There are others, active, that are not members.
[17:14] <asac> pitti: cu
[17:14] <seb128> pitti: have fun, see you tomorrow
[17:14] <hggdh> motus, for example
[17:14] <seb128> hggdh: right, nobody said you have to be official member but better to work on ubuntu to be ubuntu contact ...
[17:15] <seb128> hggdh: I don't think anybody discussed that or suggested that motu would not be good for the job ;-)
[17:15] <hggdh> seb128, well, jcastro has it in the wiki as a prereq
[17:16] <hggdh> the very first one, in fact
[17:16] <seb128> what do you call ubuntu member?
[17:16] <seb128> is there motus which are not members?
[17:16] <huats> seb128: no
[17:16] <seb128> huats: what I though ;-)
[17:16] <huats> motus get membership automatically
[17:17]  * hggdh learns ;-)\
[17:17] <huats> ubuntu membership is granted for a certain level of work in the community
[17:17] <huats> it was granted by the CC and now it is granted by the various regional boards
[17:18] <seb128> hggdh: it basically means that you know the project and code of conduct and contributed to ubuntu
[17:18] <asac> awe: RE VPN plugins: so was the move of the autotools.mk and the other thing i asked about intentional?
[17:18] <huats> you need to have signed the CoC indeed
[17:18] <hggdh> seb128, OK. So I will bite one or two projects
[17:18] <seb128> excellent!
[17:19] <seb128> hggdh: evolution? ;-)
[17:19] <hggdh> :-)
[17:19] <hggdh> yes, evo and, methinks, coreutisl
[17:19] <seb128> \o/
[17:19] <asac> ArneGoetje: do you know if the moz rosetta import problem we talked about a while back is fixed now?
[17:20] <hggdh> So. jcastro, how do I apply to be a contact?
[17:21] <rickspencer3> team meeting in 10 mins!
[17:21] <rickspencer3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-06-23
[17:28]  * bryce grabs coffee
[17:29] <asac> awe: i updated the comparison table and added MM cols ... also added two more rows can you check the ? and see if you know about that?
[17:30] <rickspencer3> everybody, ready?
[17:30]  * evanrmurphy prepares to audit
[17:30] <awe> asac: sure, will do
[17:30]  * asac runs and gets a coffee (30 sec)
[17:31] <asac> awe: also i changed bluetooth rows
[17:31] <asac> ok i am ready :)
[17:31]  * asac waves
[17:31] <ArneGoetje> asac: not yet... will land tomorrow
[17:32] <asac> great
[17:32] <rickspencer3> yoinks
[17:32] <rickspencer3> looks like we're ready to go
[17:32] <kenvandine> yup
[17:32] <rickspencer3> so pitti (who's not here) asked me to make a couple of announcements for him
[17:33] <rickspencer3> "gentle reminders" as he put it
[17:33] <rickspencer3> pitti: Reminder: do you merges (https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html)
[17:33] <rickspencer3> also, spec status
[17:33] <rickspencer3> are there any specs that aren't approved yet, but should be, or will be soon?
[17:34] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, only ones i know of are the DX ones
[17:34] <asac> i think the network-ui isnt approved. we have to resubmit it after doing some minor adjustments pitti wanted to see
[17:34] <kenvandine> which should happen this week
[17:34]  * asac pushes this high on his list
[17:34] <ccheney> hi
[17:34] <asac> but tasks are already in there and so on.
[17:34] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: looks like there is "integrating with U1, and also couchdb on the list)
[17:34] <kenvandine> oh right
[17:34] <rickspencer3> asac: ack
[17:35] <kenvandine> those aren't approved yet
[17:35] <asac> (so just a formal signoff thing)
[17:35] <ArneGoetje> rickspencer3: language-selector. waiting for mpt to update the mockup. but it's reviewd by pitti already.
[17:35] <rickspencer3> looks like we're close to having it all apporved
[17:35] <asac> kenvandine: does couchdb involve getting it in main?
[17:35] <kenvandine> yes
[17:35] <asac> too bad. means we have to open flood gates for consumers of not exported mozjs api :(
[17:36] <kenvandine> asac, ?
[17:36] <asac> kenvandine: previously we didnt let things in that linked against mozjs
[17:36] <asac> (in main)
[17:36] <kenvandine> ah
[17:36] <asac> because there is no upstreawm ABI/API policy
[17:36] <kenvandine> eek
[17:37] <asac> even though in practice they dont break it in security update, they dont rally commit to it
[17:37] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: is this an issue that you need to sort out for the MIR?
[17:37] <asac> kenvandine: you can probably see that in the ugly LD_LIBRARY_PATH hack i added to it in my upload (last week?)
[17:37] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, looks like it
[17:38] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, we will obviously need to discuss that
[17:38] <kenvandine> asac, i will ping you when we do that MIR
[17:38] <asac> yes. lets put that as an action item
[17:38] <rickspencer3> ACTION: kenvandine to investigate mozjz linkage and ABI/API policy
[17:38] <kenvandine> mozjs
[17:38] <rickspencer3> hehe
[17:38] <kenvandine> :)
[17:38] <rickspencer3> java zcript
[17:38] <rickspencer3> http://piware.de/tmp/desktopteam-burndown-karmic.png
[17:38] <rickspencer3> looks like someone pulled a bunch of work out of Karmic yesterday?
[17:39] <asac> wow ... someone flipped a bunch of things to done ;)
[17:39] <rickspencer3> asac: not really, they just removed the work items
[17:39] <asac> hmm. guess the trend line needs to get adjustment when that happens?
[17:39] <rickspencer3> changes in scope are reflected by changes in the total height of the bar
[17:39] <rickspencer3> asac: changing scope is a valid way to stay below the trend line
[17:39] <seb128> is the trend bar the target or the current speed?
[17:40] <rickspencer3> however, I suspect that the scope did not truly change, and that someone broke it somehow
[17:40] <asac> rickspencer3: yeah. but if you adjust it by offset changing scope will also narrow gap.
[17:40] <rickspencer3> seb128: closer to target ... it's the speed at which you would have to resolve items to exactly fill capacity but still be ontime
[17:41] <asac> but ok ;)
[17:41] <rickspencer3> in any case, if you changed work items on your blueprint, please check to make sure that you didn't break the burndown chart script
[17:41]  * rickspencer3 wonders if the link to kubuntu todo broke
[17:41] <rickspencer3> ok, next announcement:
[17:42] <rickspencer3> The location of the Karmic sprint was confirmed last week
[17:42] <rickspencer3> did anyone *not* see that?
[17:42]  * seb128 did see that
[17:42]  * asac too
[17:42]  * ArneGoetje too
[17:42] <awe> +1
[17:43] <rickspencer3> ok
[17:43] <rickspencer3> so get your airfare, etc...
[17:43] <kenvandine> working on it already :)
[17:43] <bryce> rickspencer3, hmm, that drop in the curve might have been me marking the xorg blueprint "Completed"?  All the work items were done so I figured that was safe to do now?
[17:43] <rickspencer3> bryce: interesting
[17:44] <bryce> rickspencer3, I had assumed that they'd still show up on the graph though... script bug?
[17:44] <rickspencer3> bryce: could be
[17:44] <rickspencer3> we can look at the database later, and see what's not in there, etc...
[17:44] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: partner status update?
[17:44] <bryce> ok
[17:45] <kenvandine> ok
[17:45] <bryce> (maybe I'm wrong; xorg had only 7 tasks, but ~30 are missing)
[17:45] <kenvandine> i have updated the ubuntuone status page
[17:46] <kenvandine> to reflect the spec the u1 team created for karmic integration
[17:46] <kenvandine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/DesktopIntegration/Status
[17:46] <kenvandine> i also added some desktop stuff at the bottom that i care about as well
[17:46] <kenvandine> i am still working on getting a view into the DX team's iterations
[17:47] <kenvandine> so we can get a similar wiki page
[17:47] <kenvandine> or ideally work items with a burn down chart for them
[17:47] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: I think they are still working on their planning and plan to be done eow, right?
[17:47] <kenvandine> dbarth promised that this week
[17:47] <kenvandine> yes
[17:47] <kenvandine> that is all i have right now
[17:48] <rickspencer3> so for U1, it looks like file sharing and desktop integration are in good shape
[17:48] <kenvandine> yup
[17:48] <rickspencer3> great
[17:48] <rickspencer3> I think that Riddell is canoeing today
[17:48] <rickspencer3> so no Kubuntu update
[17:48] <rickspencer3> bryce: X?
[17:48] <asac> (kenvandine: could you remind ubuntuone folks to get in touch with you/me/mvo for the third party whitelisting application (for < karmic) ?)
[17:49] <kenvandine> whitelisting?
[17:49] <bryce> rickspencer3, shall I paste or just discuss what's on the meeting summary page?
[17:49] <rickspencer3> bryce, just discuss, Ithink
[17:50] <rickspencer3> but first ...
[17:50] <rickspencer3> asac: kenvandine: is the whitelisting for Jaunty?
[17:50] <asac> kenvandine: they wanted to apply to whitelist their ppa for single click install through apturl -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyRepositoryApplicationProcess; lets talk after meeting
[17:50] <bryce> merges - we're ahead of the curve.  Most stuff merged in; remaining priorities in PPAs.
[17:50] <kenvandine> ah
[17:50] <kenvandine> asac, yeah... lets talk about that
[17:50] <rickspencer3> ACTION: kenvandine to work with asac regarding white listing of U1
[17:51] <rickspencer3> bryce: how do you know you are ahead?
[17:51] <bryce> xorg overall stability is good, bugs have leveled off.  However we've got a few merges and changes (kms by default on -intel) coming in that should destabilize things a bit.
[17:51] <bryce> rickspencer3, we track outstanding merges here - http://www2.bryceharrington.org:8080/X/PkgList/versions_current.html ; plus based on prior releases we're generally not to this point until closer to alpha-3
[17:52] <bryce> rickspencer3, that's the highlights; rest of the details are in the meeting minutes
[17:52] <rickspencer3> so you can tell from that list that you'll need to do a certain number of merges per week, and you are ahead of that number? nice
[17:53] <bryce> essentially, yes
[17:54] <rickspencer3> great that the kernel updates have relieved Jaunty intel users!
[17:54] <rickspencer3> that was quite a long row to hoe!
[17:54] <bryce> yeah
[17:54] <rickspencer3> congrats
[17:54] <bryce> also, we're doing things a little differently this time around by using PPAs more heavily
[17:54] <bryce> so if anyone here is bored with X being too stable in karmic, you're encouraged to load the xorg-edgers PPA
[17:54] <rickspencer3> lol
[17:54] <kenvandine> hehe
[17:55] <bryce> we have new versions of -nvidia, -fglrx, -intel... pretty much everything
[17:55] <seb128> will it fix xorg eating gigabytes of memory a day? ;-)
[17:55] <rickspencer3> bryce: nice job on xorg-edgers, btw
[17:55] <bryce> as we get testing feedback, those bits will then be loaded into karmic
[17:55] <kenvandine> i switched to vesa because of the memory issue on 965
[17:55] <kenvandine> :)
[17:55] <rickspencer3> while we're looking at bryce's versions list, as an aside:
[17:55] <rickspencer3> http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/versions.html
[17:55] <bryce> seb128, mm, there is a patch for that I believe.  Not sure on the status at the moment
[17:56] <seb128> is the edgers ppa crack of the day or candidate updates?
[17:57] <bryce> seb128, primarily git snapshots, but there are candidate updates mixed in as well
[17:57] <seb128> ok
[17:57] <bryce> we considered breaking those out, but it's too many ppas to manage already
[17:57] <rickspencer3> thanks bryce
[17:57] <rickspencer3> good update
[17:58] <rickspencer3> moving on ...
[17:58] <rickspencer3> paper cut bugs
[17:58] <seb128> you can click on the "+" need to the package column title to get extra components on versions.html
[17:58] <seb128> feel free to discuss extra components to add if you are interested to see something else there
[17:58] <rickspencer3> check that out
[17:58] <pedro_> i was going to ask for empathy but it's already there, nice :-)
[17:59] <seb128> we could maybe split the tables
[17:59] <seb128> ie have a telepathy* table too
[17:59] <seb128> anyway we can discuss that out of the meeting
[17:59] <rickspencer3> seb128: could you programitically create a list of *all* the packages?
[18:00] <seb128> "all"?
[18:00] <rickspencer3> (in a seperate list, of course)
[18:00] <rickspencer3> versions looks like all the gnome packages that you actively maintain
[18:00] <seb128> well we need somebody to define the upstream tarballs location to get the upstream versions
[18:00] <rickspencer3> ah
[18:00] <rickspencer3> so, no
[18:00] <seb128> and it would probably take a while to pull versions for the whole universe
[18:00] <rickspencer3> but if someone from the community was interested in a package, they could ask you
[18:01] <seb128> but we could do a page daily updated with a broader scope
[18:01] <seb128> yes
[18:01] <seb128> everything we would like to make sure is updated should be added
[18:01] <seb128> maybe a core page for what we work on (ie what is on the CD)
[18:02] <rickspencer3> that would be a good idea
[18:02] <seb128> and a community page listing all the nice desktopish applications we would like to get uptodate too
[18:02] <rickspencer3> and a page of "needs community updater"
[18:02] <rickspencer3> schweet
[18:02] <seb128> right
[18:02] <rickspencer3> and for the second page, folks can just ask you for items for that page
[18:02] <seb128> anyway code is available on launchpad and we will keep tweaking it
[18:02] <rickspencer3> this is very cool
[18:03] <seb128> we might add the components list in a public place so anybody can add a component to the second table
[18:03] <rickspencer3> great collaboration tool, plus provides transparency
[18:03] <seb128> and it makes much easier for us to know what to do
[18:03] <seb128> anyway enough of the topic for the meeting I guess ;-)
[18:03] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:03] <rickspencer3> moving on
[18:03] <rickspencer3> paper cut bugs
[18:04] <rickspencer3> anyone pick any off for this week?
[18:04] <kenvandine> not yet... but plan to
[18:04] <rickspencer3> okay
[18:04] <rickspencer3> I'd like everyone to shoot for one paper cut bug every two weeks
[18:04] <rickspencer3> but one per week would be better
[18:04] <rickspencer3> :)
[18:05] <rickspencer3> any other business?
[18:05] <awe> seb128 didn't you pick off the gnome-keyring?
[18:05] <awe> bug
[18:05] <rickspencer3> lol
[18:05] <seb128> which one?
[18:05] <asac> thought that too
[18:05] <asac> NM + keyring
[18:05] <awe> bug #162710
[18:05] <asac> + auto login
[18:05] <rickspencer3> seb128: did you really?
[18:05] <seb128> I like the papercut idea
[18:06] <awe> the sync fixed it
[18:06] <seb128> but they picked not so easy bugs in many cases
[18:06] <awe> +!
[18:06] <seb128> rickspencer3: no
[18:06] <rickspencer3> seb128: ok
[18:06] <rickspencer3> you rocked that
[18:06] <rickspencer3> hold on
[18:06] <seb128> the sync fixed the password change issue
[18:06] <seb128> autologin is not the same issue
[18:06] <rickspencer3> cool
[18:06] <seb128> and I doubt we will fix this one easily
[18:06] <rickspencer3> so if the bug is not easy to fix, it's not a paper cut
[18:07] <seb128> well, we should define how easy it has to be
[18:07] <rickspencer3> just say in the comment "not easy to fix", maybe a little bit about why, and set it to invalid in the paper cuts project
[18:07] <seb128> lot of those bugs are at least one day of work
[18:07] <bryce> rickspencer3, sometimes a bug can be trivial to fix, but only if you know the package already; if you're coming in cold, coming up to speed learning the codebase structure can consume quite a bit of time
[18:07] <seb128> right, I started doing that
[18:07] <seb128> but I declared bankrupt there
[18:07] <seb128> there got over 900 bugs in a week
[18:07] <ccheney> some bugs may be easier to fix for some people than others, such as artwork change requests
[18:07] <rickspencer3> bryce: right, that's why defining "easy" is hard
[18:07] <seb128> they flooded my inbox so much that I stopped reading bug emails mostly now
[18:07] <bryce> rickspencer3, indeed
[18:07]  * ccheney isn't an artist by any stretch ;-)
[18:08] <rickspencer3> ccheney: you should never get an art bug without attached art
[18:08] <ccheney> rickspencer3: ah so these papercut bugs are just papercut bugs that are also assigned to you?
[18:08] <rickspencer3> I think we need to be flexible with how we approach this
[18:08] <pedro_> seb128: i've created a special vfolder for those, otherwise it's really too much to read :-/
[18:08] <asac> seb128: traffic - just by adding the papercuts task? or because they explicitly asked for your input?
[18:08]  * ccheney has seen lots of papercut bugs in OOo in general
[18:08] <rickspencer3> ccheney: they will be in the paper cuts projects
[18:09] <ccheney> rickspencer3: ok
[18:09] <rickspencer3> ccheney: yes, that's because OOo is very important to people, and they use it a lot
[18:09] <ccheney> rickspencer3: ok, will look through the list some more
[18:10] <seb128> asac: because people started adding hundrerpapercut tasks randomly to any bug they want to get looked at by somebody
[18:10] <asac> is there any way to query for papercut tasks bugs filed against specific package?
[18:10] <seb128> asac: and then arguing why it should be a hundredpapercut and why other have been wrong to not accept it as being one
[18:10] <rickspencer3> hmm
[18:11] <seb128> asac: I got over a thousand "spams" due to it this week
[18:11] <asac> yeah. maybe suggestion should have been done by individual bugs first and only those accepted should get that task
[18:11] <rickspencer3> they have batched up the paper cuts in sets of 10
[18:11] <rickspencer3> 10 for each week
[18:11] <rickspencer3> I would ignore anything that has not made it onto that list
[18:11] <seb128> rickspencer3: well to reach that I got over a thousand noise emails before
[18:11] <bryce> rickspencer3, where is the listing of the 100?  The bug tracker seems to have several hundred bugs in it
[18:11] <seb128> and people keep complaining on lot of bugs about their bug not having been accepted as hundredpapercut now
[18:11] <seb128> is a bit like people arguing over bug closing
[18:12] <awe> 442 open
[18:12] <rickspencer3> the project drew much more interest than was anticipated
[18:12] <seb128> bryce: look for round-n milestones
[18:12] <rickspencer3> the design team is sending a mail each week to #ubuntu-devel that has the list for that week
[18:12] <rickspencer3> I would probably ignore anything except the list on that email
[18:12] <seb128> rickspencer3: well, I sort of expected it would turn this way when they blogged about it and told them but they said they were fine with filtering the noise as long as they get the 100
[18:13] <awe> https://edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+milestones
[18:13] <seb128> rickspencer3: well the things is that they are using standard ubuntu bugs so you can't ignore those easily
[18:13] <seb128> ie they take an open bug and anybody can add an hundredpapercut task
[18:14] <seb128> which turn the bug which was quiet for years to a discussion forum where people argue on why it should be an hundredpapercut
[18:14] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:14] <rickspencer3> the important thing is that there exists a good list of bugs, and now it's time to get 100 fixe
[18:14] <rickspencer3> d
[18:14] <seb128> anyway something to consider for the next cycle we might want to use a different medium to discuss those
[18:14] <seb128> right
[18:14] <rickspencer3> :)
[18:14] <seb128> should we spend some work time on those goals?
[18:15] <rickspencer3> if they repeat this process, we should certainly figure a better way
[18:15] <seb128> or rather consider it as a community project?
[18:15] <rickspencer3> work time
[18:15] <rickspencer3> I would say if you see a bug that you think you are the best person to fix
[18:15] <seb128> higher rating than spec work?
[18:15] <bryce> rickspencer3, also if this is something our team is taking the responsibility to commit time to doing, it would have been nice to have had some input into how the project was set up at the outset.
[18:15] <seb128> I will have difficulties to make space for those and all my specs ... what should be focus on?
[18:15] <Amaranth> yeah, an old compiz bug about how show desktop works has one guy basically saying "patch it to do what I want or remove it from Ubuntu"
[18:16] <Amaranth> good times
[18:16] <seb128> (I guess I'm not alone in this case)
[18:16] <rickspencer3> I would say it's as important as spec work
[18:16] <bryce> rickspencer3, seb128's comments about people just using it to flag their pet bugs troubles me.
[18:16] <rickspencer3> bryce: this was all discussed at UDS, etc...
[18:16] <rickspencer3> the design team is carefully vetting the input
[18:16] <rickspencer3> and anyway, it's too late now
[18:16] <seb128> bryce: as rickspencer3 said the design team pick 10 a week and email the official list
[18:17] <seb128> so we should work on those selected
[18:17] <seb128> they use milestones for the "official" lists too
[18:17] <Amaranth> back when there were only ~250 bugs reported as paper cuts I went through all of them and tried to filter out junk and assign things to the right place
[18:17] <rickspencer3> so I would suggest budgeting about half a day every two weeks or so
[18:17] <Amaranth> people are opening bugs against only the paper cuts project, not an ubuntu package
[18:17] <ccheney> looks like 50% of them are nautilus bugs, heh
[18:17] <kenvandine> interesting
[18:17] <seb128> Amaranth: some people have been "fixing" that
[18:17] <rickspencer3> in two weeks we can check in and see how it's working
[18:18] <seb128> right
[18:18] <rickspencer3> keep the big picture in mind ... it's important that we help the design team to succeed with this
[18:19] <rickspencer3> of course, we won't have time to fix all the bugs, but it looks like a lot of community support is flowing in as well
[18:19] <awe> rickspencer3: hmmm... if people are using the project wrong ( ie. creating direct bugs ), shouldn't that be prevented?
[18:19] <rickspencer3> awe: unfortunately, launchpad does not have the means of preventing that now, but should in the future
[18:19] <seb128> let's not discuss the bug flow now, they nominated most bugs now anyway
[18:19] <rickspencer3> seb128: right
[18:19] <seb128> that's not a concern until next cycle if we do that again
[18:19] <rickspencer3> any other business?
[18:20] <rickspencer3> meeting adjourned?
[18:20] <seb128> thanks rickspencer3
[18:20] <kenvandine> yup
[18:20] <kenvandine> thx
[18:20] <awe> see ya
[18:20] <rickspencer3> thanks all!
[18:20] <Amaranth> oops, was a meeting :P
[18:20] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[18:20] <asac> thx
[18:20] <ccheney> thanks
[18:20] <bryce> thanks
[18:21] <evanrmurphy> thanks
[18:21] <tkamppeter> thanks
[18:21] <rickspencer3> hi tkamppeter!
[18:21] <tkamppeter> rickspencer3: hi
[18:26] <superm1> asac, with the next upstream release of bluez we should be able to drop the bluetooth init script in favor of udev rules for spawning it.  could you make sure that whatever the solution ends up being (gnome-bluetooth/blueman etc) handles this properly? eg doesn't show an icon unless bluetoothd is actually running?
[18:26] <awe> rickspencer3: question for you on the papercuts.  if the fix would take more than 1/2 day, it should get pushed from the list?
[18:26] <rickspencer3> awe: not necessarily
[18:26] <rickspencer3> BUT
[18:26] <rickspencer3> if it will take *you* more than half a day, probably don't fix it
[18:27] <seb128> I think we should have both easy and challenging targets
[18:27] <asac> superm1: for NM not showing the icon was rather confusing. blueman etc. should show an error in the tray i think
[18:27] <rickspencer3> someone else may want to spend a day or two onit
[18:27] <seb128> challenging targets might not get fixed but if they do they are usually worth it
[18:27] <asac> superm1: which is what we do for NM now too
[18:27] <awe> sure, maybe it should get moved to a different milestone?
[18:27] <superm1> asac, but what if you don't have any BT hardware in the system?  should the BT icon really be there?
[18:27] <rickspencer3> if you think it will take anyone more than a day to fix, I would set it to invalid
[18:27] <asac> superm1: will that cause bluetoothd not being running?
[18:28] <asac> i would think that it runs anyway, just doesnt find adapters
[18:28] <superm1> asac, exactly. it will only run when you have something that identifies as using the bluetooth subsystem to udev
[18:29] <asac> superm1: oh you wrote udev rules ok
[18:29] <asac> i thought you ment dbus activation
[18:29] <asac> superm1: when will the upstream release happen?
[18:29] <awe> rickspencer3: who's running the 100 papercuts?  so you're essentially saying if it'll take more than a day to fix, then mark the PaperCut portion of the bug as Invalid with an explanation of why
[18:30] <superm1> they're pretty frequent, probably within 2-3 weeks
[18:30] <rickspencer3> awe: djsiegel1 is running it
[18:30] <superm1> it was  exactly 2 weeks between the last two releases
[18:30] <awe> duh, i should've known that by now after reading all the bug reports recently
[18:30] <rickspencer3> and yes, that is my guidance, though it's guidance, not a hard and firm rule
[18:31] <rickspencer3> I would suggest that we approach the project flexibly, as it is the first time doing something like this, the correct processes and such will not be clear until we are done
[18:31] <awe> ok.  i'll add a comment and let him move it to another milestone or mark invalid at his discretion.  diplomacy never hurts the 1st time around
[18:31] <rickspencer3> hehe
[18:33]  * kenvandine heads to lunch... bbiab
[18:34]  * rickspencer3-afk time for a cup of tea
[18:34] <Tm_T> rickspencer3-afk: why this public away?
[18:34] <rickspencer3-afk> Tm_T: why is what public?
[18:34] <Tm_T> rickspencer3-afk: awaynick and stuff (:
[18:35] <rickspencer3-afk> Tm_T: it's just a habit so that our teammates are aware of our status
[18:36] <hggdh> seb128, have you seen http://mail.gnome.org/archives/release-team/2009-June/msg00018.html?
[18:36] <Tm_T> rickspencer3-afk: interesting
[18:38] <seb128> hggdh: no, thanks*
[18:38] <djsiegel1> awe: hey
[18:38] <djsiegel1> awe: that heuristic is rough
[18:39] <hggdh> discussion is still going on, and I will not be able to make it to the next meeting this Thursday (srag has rescheduled it)
[18:39] <awe> djsiegel1: hey, one sec.. in a kernel discussion
[18:39] <djsiegel1> ok
[18:39] <seb128> hggdh: things can be discussed out of the meeting though ;-)
[18:39] <hggdh> :-)
[18:40] <djsiegel1> (awe: for example, if a bug would take a week to fix, it might not be a paper cut, but if there's already a 250-line patch and it would only take a day to update and merge it, then it could be a paper cut) I've got to run, sorry!
[18:41] <awe> djsiegel1: np, i'll update the bug in question...
[18:43] <djsiegel1> awe: which one?
[18:44] <awe> bug # 386900
[18:44] <djsiegel1> yes, mt commented that it may be fixed later in the cycle by nm work
[18:44] <djsiegel1> ?
[18:45] <djsiegel1> Make a comment with what you know, I will try to reschedule it
[18:45] <awe> it might be, maybe it should be moved to a later milestone?
[18:45] <djsiegel1> yeah, sounds good
[18:45] <djsiegel1> we can push it to round-10, there are some trivial ones on round-10 we can swap
[18:46] <awe> that'd be great
[18:46] <djsiegel1> if you can change the milestone, feel free, or I can, but I have to run! thanks for the input
[18:46] <awe> i'll add comments, as there's a related bug that i entered recently about the "auto" prefix being used for network names in other places
[18:47] <bryce> heh, firefox crashes when I try attaching a file and the file dialog tries to autocomplete a filename.
[18:54] <hggdh> seb128, so... how to deal with srag's proposal?
[18:56] <asac> awe: so what do those {1} {2} ... things mean in the comparison table?
[18:59] <awe> asac: notes that i need to add
[18:59] <awe> just short 1-liners that explain things briefly
[18:59] <asac> k
[19:06] <seb128> hggdh: discussion on the upstream irc channel
[19:08] <ccheney> asac: do you have a plan of when to switch default firefox package over to 3.5?
[19:12] <bryce> ccheney, wow, you're right, well over half these papercuts are to nautilus
[19:13]  * awalton__ is not surprised.
[19:13] <bryce> unfortunately the only one I saw that looked like an xorg bug, wasn't a valid papercut (and not reported well enough to do anything on) :-(
[19:15] <chrisccoulson> does the "About Ubuntu" shortcut appear in the system menu for anyone in Karmic?
[19:15] <bryce> chrisccoulson, I see only About GNOME
[19:15] <chrisccoulson> bryce - thanks
[19:16] <chrisccoulson> i wonder why that is then :-/
[19:29] <ccheney> bryce: same for me on one of the OOo bugs, i just asked the design team in the bug what to do about it :)
[19:30] <bryce> ccheney, yeah seems to be quite a few where there needs to be a design decision made first
[19:30] <bryce> e.g. #295989 doesn't look hard to implement, but there are half a dozen different names proposed to change *to*, so how to pick which to use?
[19:31] <bryce> guess I'll mark it incomplete and ask for a design decision
[19:32] <tgpraveen> bug 295989
[19:33] <asac> ccheney: we have the firefox 3.5 transition spec
[19:33]  * ccheney just switched over to 3.5 today to try it out
[19:33] <asac> ccheney: but go ahead and use the current firefox-3.5
[19:33] <asac> cool
[19:34] <asac> use that as default. its the release candidate
[19:34] <asac> branding my still be unofficial for a bit
[19:34] <awalton__> bryce, not sure anyone upstream cares very much what it gets changed to...
[19:34] <asac> might
[19:34] <awalton__> just need someone to propose a name, I guess.
[19:35] <ccheney> asac: ok
[19:35] <awalton__> bryce, btw, that bug is a gvfs bug, not nautilus
[19:39] <bryce> awalton__, mm, in a way it's a dupe of bug 15495.  Sounds like it needs some code rearchitecting.  maybe it's not a papercut
[19:39] <awalton__> bryce, needs quite a lot of love. is ubuntu even shipping it enabled these days?
[19:40] <awalton__> I remember at one point it wasn't, but that might have changed
[19:40] <bryce> well I can reproduce the issue on karmic if that's what you mean
[19:43] <awalton__> wonder when that changed then
[19:43] <awalton__> it's a better way to interact with archives, but really, it's usefulness is quite limited by what libarchive can do
[19:48] <kenvandine> pedro_, ping
[19:48] <pedro_> kenvandine: hey
[19:48] <kenvandine> hey pedro_, got a request for a bug/hug day
[19:48] <kenvandine> empathy related, but focus on msn support
[19:49] <kenvandine> using the latest telepathy-butterfly
[19:49] <pedro_> kenvandine: sure so butterfly or haze?
[19:49] <kenvandine> get some meaningful but reports
[19:49] <kenvandine> bug
[19:49] <kenvandine> butterfly
[19:49] <kenvandine> there are lots of complaints about that
[19:49] <kenvandine> and looking at upstream bug reports... there just aren't very many
[19:49] <pedro_> was the latest one uploaded to karmic ?
[19:50] <kenvandine> yeah, not built yet
[19:50] <kenvandine> i can get it in a ppa for jaunty as well
[19:50] <kenvandine> if that helps get more eyes on it
[19:50] <pedro_> would be nice if the ppa could get the latest one as well so people with jaunty can give us feedback as well
[19:50] <pedro_> that'd rock!
[19:50] <kenvandine> i already have the latest empathy in my ppa
[19:50] <kenvandine> with indicator support :)
[19:51] <pedro_> awesome!
[19:51] <pedro_> ok let me add it to the planning page then
[19:51] <kenvandine> great
[19:51] <kenvandine> thx
[19:51] <kenvandine> let me know when you need the desired bits in a ppa... and i can make sure we have the latest stuff
[19:51] <pedro_> my pleasure
[19:51] <kenvandine> msn is the biggest complaint we get
[19:51] <pedro_> alright will do it ;-)
[19:52] <kenvandine> lets help upstream fix it
[19:52] <kenvandine> ideally in time for karmic :)
[19:52] <pedro_> indeed
[19:53] <hyperair> what's up with empathy and msn?
[19:53] <kenvandine> hyperair, most of our complaints about empathy is msn support
[19:53] <kenvandine> but looking upstream, there aren't very many bugs...
[19:53] <tgpraveen> kenvandine: please upload latest empathy ver to ppa for jaunty users really would like to test it and file bugs
[19:54] <hyperair> kenvandine: doesn't empathy support msn?
[19:54] <kenvandine> tgpraveen, already done... one sec
[19:54] <kenvandine> hyperair, yes... but it is buggy
[19:54] <kenvandine> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ken-vandine/+archive/empathy
[19:55] <kenvandine> tgpraveen, please report bugs!
[19:55] <hyperair> ah i see
[19:55] <kenvandine> hyperair, evidently it is far from as good as it is in pidgin
[19:55] <kenvandine> there are only 23 open bugs in upstreams bugzilla
[19:59] <tgpraveen> kenvandine: from what I heard the latest release of empathy and butterfly fixed most of the issues
[19:59] <kenvandine> well it kind of works now for chat
[19:59] <kenvandine> it is a little crashy
[20:00] <tgpraveen> kenvandine: if I install 27.3 from ur ppa and then I remove ur ppa then I can resinstall the older version from synaptic right?
[20:00] <kenvandine> yes
[20:01] <tgpraveen> kenvandine: did you build with adium themes support?
[20:01] <kenvandine> yes
[20:01] <tgpraveen> kenvandine: k. cool .thx
[20:01] <kenvandine> the webkit version you need for jaunty is in the same ppa
[20:02] <tgpraveen> will running update mgr after adding ur ppa be enough for adium support or do I manually have to install webkit?
[20:03] <kenvandine> it will grab it for you
[20:03] <tgpraveen> nice
[20:08] <bryce> ccheney, eh, too many of these papercuts need design decisions made first.
[20:08] <ccheney> bryce: yea
[20:09] <bryce> well, I posted a couple patches where the task was clear, but I think I'm wasting my time on too many that are still stuck in committee :-)
[20:10] <djsiegel1> bryce: any in particular you want design team feedback on?
[20:10] <bryce> plus my 2 hrs is up
[20:10] <bryce> djsiegel1, yeah I put comments on the ones I thought needed feedback on
[20:10] <djsiegel1> ok
[20:10] <bryce> djsiegel1, even the two patches I put up probably need design review to make sure that's what you want them to be
[20:11] <djsiegel1> right
[20:11] <bryce> (plus the gnome team has to accept them and add them to bzr, etc.)
[20:11] <djsiegel1> any improvements are welcome, they don't have to be the perfect solution or have design team approval
[20:11] <djsiegel1> but we are happy to help the ones that need design work
[20:11] <djsiegel1> or user testing
[20:12] <bryce> djsiegel1, well, the things I was looking at was just string changes, so they really are quite trivial, but most of the work is deciding *what* string to use
[20:12] <djsiegel1> oh, cool
[20:12] <bryce> so those really are mostly design work
[20:12] <bryce> once the decision is made, the actual coding is a one liner (usually)
[20:13] <djsiegel1> bryce: mind if I schedule the 'Clean Up by Name' -> 'Arrange by Name' bug for this week?
[20:13] <djsiegel1> I need to move a round-1 paper cut to round-10
[20:14] <djsiegel1> and vice versa
[20:14] <bryce> djsiegel1, sure
[20:14] <djsiegel1> cool
[20:14] <bryce> djsiegel1, btw one procedural thing I'd suggest that might help
[20:14] <bryce> djsiegel1, do a search against all papercut bugs with more than >N comments, and then re-review those
[20:15] <bryce> I suspect many papercut bugs with large numbers of comments have some dissent about design approach, that will need some decision made
[20:15] <djsiegel1> because that many comments may indicate unsettled design issues?
[20:15] <djsiegel1> ok
[20:15] <bryce> right
[20:15] <djsiegel1> good idea
[20:15]  * bryce -> lunch
[20:25] <djsiegel1> bryce: I will look into the calendar applet -- we definitely want clicking on the desktop to dismiss that menu, which doesn't work in Jaunty.
[20:27] <seb128> djsiegel1: not really no
[20:27] <kenvandine> djsiegel1, it is a window... which is why it behaves that way
[20:27] <seb128> some users keep that menu open while working
[20:27] <djsiegel1> right, I meant click on the desktop wallpaper
[20:27] <seb128> it's a calendar with weather informations
[20:28] <seb128> well right, some people don't want it to close when clicking on the wallpaper
[20:28] <seb128> it doesn't seem so obvious
[20:28] <ccheney> asac: is there a way to have gnome use ff3.5 as default browser, it seems to not show up in the web browser list
[20:28] <djsiegel1> kenvandine: it's a window as kind of coincidental
[20:28] <kenvandine> djsiegel1, i think there was a reason... i don't recall
[20:28] <djsiegel1> it uses a window because it was easier to implement that way, we should let the fact that it is a window decide how it should be used
[20:28] <djsiegel1> should not let*
[20:29] <kenvandine> djsiegel1, agreed
[20:29] <djsiegel1> seb128: some people will always be upset by the design decisions, we will have to figure out which decision to make
[20:29] <djsiegel1> right now, it doesn't behave like the indicator applet
[20:29] <djsiegel1> or the volume
[20:30] <djsiegel1> I understand that it's a huge widget with more uses
[20:30] <seb128> djsiegel1: I don't think we got lot of complain about the calendar applet if any, that doesn't seem an obvious target for change
[20:30] <djsiegel1> do you have an alternate suggestion?
[20:31] <seb128> other bugs to work on or about this applet?
[20:31] <djsiegel1> other bugs
[20:31] <djsiegel1> I can replace it if you want to overrule it
[20:31] <djsiegel1> let me run it by mpt tomorrow
[20:31] <djsiegel1> panel is his deal
[20:31] <seb128> I don't overrule it, I've just joined in the middle of the discussion
[20:32] <seb128> I just know it's not something users complain about
[20:32] <djsiegel1> someone complained about it
[20:32] <seb128> and I know some people make use of the current behaviour
[20:32] <djsiegel1> that's true
[20:33] <tgpraveen> kenvandine: so i got working 2.2.7.3 working .thx for that
[20:33] <tgpraveen> though i was wondering that with the messaging indicator support
[20:33] <kenvandine> great
[20:33] <tgpraveen> how will things like
[20:34] <tgpraveen> voice chat, video chat work
[20:34] <kenvandine> i tink they show up there, and you have to click them
[20:34] <Nafallo> seb128: are you the NEW guy today?
[20:34] <seb128> not today but I can do newing if required
[20:34] <tgpraveen> previously when a voice chat came to activate the voice chat dialogue the flashing icon of empathy had to be clicked upon what now?
[20:35] <djsiegel1> bryce, please don't invalidate paper cuts just because there is a lot of discussion. Nowhere have we decided that paper cuts must have a design decision on them before they can be marked confirmed.
[20:35] <seb128> Nafallo: do you need to get anything newed?
[20:35] <Nafallo> seb128: python-configglue binaries. ubuntuone-client is broken based on them.
[20:35] <seb128> looking
[20:35] <kenvandine> tgpraveen, i think it shows up in the indicator
[20:35] <Nafallo> seb128: thanks mate :-)
[20:37] <seb128> Nafallo: it has only .py files is there any reason it's not arch all?
[20:38] <seb128> oh it is
[20:38] <seb128> the script log is confusing
[20:38] <seb128> looks ok
[20:38] <seb128> Nafallo: accepted
[20:38] <Nafallo> seb128: thanks :-)
[20:38] <seb128> you're welcome
[20:38] <Nafallo> seb128: and you're awesome! :-)
[20:39] <seb128> thanks ;-)
[20:39] <seb128> hum
[20:39] <seb128> so the empathy notification area icon does nothing if you click on it and the list is open somewhere else
[20:40] <kenvandine> it should toggle... i don't get the icon though... using the messaging indicator
[20:40] <seb128> I'm still using 2.27.2
[20:40] <seb128> but it doesn't toggle, it does nothing
[20:40] <seb128> I clicked several time on it I though it was hanging
[20:41] <kenvandine> i think it does actually toggle in .3
[20:41] <kenvandine> it definately toggles with the indicator in .3
[20:41] <seb128> ok, I need to sponsor the new version ;-)
[20:41] <tgpraveen> yes it toggles with .3
[20:42] <kenvandine> seb128, please... a bunch of people are using it from my ppa now :)
[20:42] <seb128> kenvandine: did you rebase on debian or did somebody else did that?
[20:42] <kenvandine> someone else did
[20:42] <kenvandine> but their patch includes my patch
[20:42] <seb128> kenvandine: dholbach commented on your bug because you didn't change the binaries for the soname change or something
[20:42] <seb128> ok good
[20:42] <seb128> I will do sponsoring in a bit
[20:42] <kenvandine> thx
[20:53] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i notice that gnome-panel build-depends on liblaunchpad-integration-dev, but there is no launchpad integration AFAICT. do you want me to drop the depends?
[20:53] <seb128> chrisccoulson: yes
[20:54] <seb128> it used to use it but we stopped because people were using that to open bugs on anything
[20:54] <chrisccoulson> cool, i'll do that
[20:54] <chrisccoulson> yeah, that could be quite annoying
[21:15] <asac> ccheney: currently set your custom command. we will add a .xml file that will add the app
[21:16] <ccheney> asac: ok
[21:17] <djsiegel1> what is the mailinglist for this team?
[21:18] <seb128> ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com is what we use usually
[21:19] <djsiegel1> so, can I email to that?
[21:20] <seb128> yes
[21:20] <djsiegel1> do I need to join the desktop team, am I allowed to?
[21:20] <seb128> the list is moderated but we will accept the email
[21:20] <djsiegel1> ok, will send, thank you so much!
[21:20] <seb128> you're welcome
[21:21] <Nafallo> djsiegel1: just don't send them spam ;-)
[21:22] <djsiegel1> Nafallo: no spam, but my rich NIgerian uncle want put you money order you send credit card account I wire you $50 milliion united state dollars
[21:22] <Nafallo> djsiegel1: \☺/
[21:28] <Nafallo> hmm
[21:51] <ccheney> bryce: is poulsbo going to be supported in karmic?
[21:52]  * ccheney is eyeing a tiny desktop system that uses it and only consumes 8w under load
[21:52] <bryce> ccheney, that's a tseliot question
[21:52] <ccheney> bryce: ah ok
[21:52]  * ccheney may wait and see what happens with the next gen due out in Oct
[21:53] <bryce> ccheney, but even if it is supported, I'd recommend picking something -intel-ish, esp. if you plan to run karmic
[21:53] <bryce> the dell mini 10v looks pretty sweet
[21:53] <bryce> esp. with ssd and upgraded battery
[21:53] <ccheney> bryce: what i was looking at is the fit-pc2
[21:54] <ccheney> whatever they replace poulsbo with for low power hopefully will have less issues with linux :-\
[21:55] <bryce> cute
[21:55] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i've done the gnome-panel update. i pushed it to lp:~chrisccoulson/gnome-panel/ubuntu for now, as I wasn't sure whether to push it to ubuntu-desktop now or wait until you took a look at it
[21:56] <seb128> chrisccoulson: you can use the ubuntu-desktop vcs directly it's easier for whoever does the review
[21:56] <ccheney> bryce: using something that low power would save me a few hundred dollars a year for my desktop due to electricity costs
[21:56] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - ok, i'll do that now. thanks:)
[21:56] <seb128> you're welcome
[21:57] <bryce> ccheney, but don't you live in Texas?
[21:57] <Nafallo> seb128: how well do you know busybox? (#u-desktop) ;-)
[21:57] <ccheney> bryce: er yea?
[21:57]  * ccheney pays ~ $0.15/kw
[21:57] <seb128> Nafallo: not at all
[21:58] <bryce> ccheney, I'm just hassling you ;-)
[21:58] <ccheney> bryce: heh :)
[21:59] <bryce> ccheney, fwiw I think the mini 10v has pretty good power usage even though it's a i945 video.  At least, the battery life on it is phenomenal
[21:59] <ccheney> bryce: ah, i have a regular mini 10 at the moment, i think it will be replaced with 10v sometime soon
[22:00] <bryce> how's the power usage on the one you have?
[22:00] <ccheney> not sure, i forgot to hook it up to my killawatt
[22:02]  * ccheney boots it up to see
[22:02] <ccheney> hits 14w during bootup at least
[22:07] <chrisccoulson> heh. i wish my desktop got that low;)
[22:09] <ccheney> looks like its hard to make it go over 14w
[22:09] <ccheney> idle ~ 11w at full bright screen
[22:10] <ccheney> idle full dim screen ~ 9w
[22:10] <chrisccoulson> ccheney - does your power metre measure power factor too?
[22:10] <ccheney> yea
[22:10] <ccheney> was between 0.4 and 0.5
[22:11] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i think most power supplies would struggle to do better than that when not loaded very high
[22:12] <chrisccoulson> my desktop idles at 95W :(
[22:12] <chrisccoulson> without the monitor on
[22:12] <chrisccoulson> it's like an oven in here
[22:12] <ccheney> my laptop at regular load shows at full dim as 13w with spikes to 22w probably due to flash in the background
[22:13] <chrisccoulson> thats not bad
[22:13] <ccheney> at full bright it goes between 18w and 25w
[22:13] <chrisccoulson> i think i might need to invest in a slightly more efficient device
[22:13] <ccheney> its a dual core 2.4ghz which is a bit faster than an atom ;-)
[22:13] <chrisccoulson> nice:)
[22:15] <ccheney> supposedly under windows people have managed to get this laptop down to ~ 6w idle
[22:15] <ccheney> thinkpad x200
[22:17] <Nafallo> bryce: how involved are you in the KMS stuff?
[22:17] <bryce> Nafallo, tangentially, not deeply
[22:17] <Nafallo> bryce: reason I'm asking is because I seem to have the wrong resolution, and can't see my buttons ;-)
[22:18] <bryce> Nafallo, filed a bug?
[22:18] <Nafallo> bryce: trying to figure out why first :-)
[22:18] <Nafallo> why?
[22:18] <Nafallo> where even!
[22:19] <bryce> Nafallo, file against linux.  `ubuntu-bug linux`
[22:19] <Nafallo> meh. you and your shiny toys :-P
[22:19] <bryce> if you tag it "xorg-needs-kernel-fix" then it'll show up in the list of priorities for KMS work
[22:19] <Nafallo> haha! kewl
[22:20] <bryce> it might be helpful to run `xrandr --verbose > xrandr.txt` and attach that, to show what resolutions you have / don't have
[22:21] <chrisccoulson> wow, there's not many desktop upgrades to do
[22:21] <chrisccoulson> ah
[22:21] <chrisccoulson> i didnt expand the package list
[22:21] <seb128> chrisccoulson: you though we were slackers? ;-)
[22:22] <Nafallo> bryce: hmm. I'll do some more digging before I file the bug anyway. I'm not sure what resolution I should have for starters :-P
[22:22] <bryce> Nafallo, there are also some troubleshooting guides for resolution issues at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/, which may still be of use for figuring out KMS resolution issues
[22:22] <Nafallo> bryce: eeepc 701 ;-)
[22:22] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - i don't think you and didrocks ever sleep ;)
[22:22] <seb128> lol
[22:23] <Nafallo> chrisccoulson: seb128 is french. he doesn't need sleep!
[22:23] <Nafallo> they have frog legs to compensate :-)
[22:23] <seb128> didrocks is french too
[22:23] <Nafallo> see!
[22:23] <bryce> Nafallo, mmm, one thing that comes to mind is that we had to quirk a few of the eeepc's in X to work around resolution detection problems.  But I suspect those quirks have not yet been ported to the kernel (they'd need to be rewritten a bit to fit with the code in the kernel aiui)
[22:23] <chrisccoulson> i see a pattern emerging here ;)
[22:24] <Nafallo> bryce: so yeah. totally confirmed I can't see the full screen :-)
[22:26] <Nafallo> bryce: 800×480 is what I should have, 800x600 is what I have. totally bug time! ;-)
[22:37] <Nafallo> bryce: bug 391354
[22:38] <Nafallo> s/have/has/ fixed
[22:40] <ccheney> oh so KMS is enabled now in karmic?
[22:40]  * ccheney should reboot and see if his works now
[22:41]  * ajmitch should probably upgrade the laptop from hardy at some point then
[22:45] <bryce> ccheney, has the new kernel upload gone through then?
[22:45] <ccheney> bryce: oh i thought it had based on what Nafallo said in his bug report
[22:46] <Nafallo> well. there was a new kernel. and the changelog talked about KMS I'm pretty sure :-)
[22:46] <ccheney> i don't see anything in changlog for 2.6.30-10.12 about KMS
[22:46] <ccheney> i see something in 10.11 about it but not sure what it means
[22:47] <bryce> ok yeah andy said last week it would be enabled by default in the next upload
[22:47] <ccheney>   * Revert "SAUCE: Default to i915.modeset=0 if CONFIG_DRM_I915_KMS=y"
[22:47] <Nafallo> actually. that was a lie indeed. just double checked :-P
[22:47] <ccheney> i think that is where it was turned on Jun 15 (?)
[22:47] <Nafallo> SOME changelog talked about it at least ;-)
[22:49] <Nafallo> ccheney: initramfs-tools changelog
[22:49] <ccheney> oh ok
[23:06] <awe> asac, jono: either of you guys around?
[23:13] <asac> awe: ?
[23:14] <awe> wow, you still up?
[23:14] <awe> ;)
[23:14] <asac> sure
[23:36] <Nafallo> awe: you really meant to say "wow, is your wifi still up?" right? ;-)
[23:39] <awe> Nafallo: ;)