[00:00] cprofitt: you going to run the meeting ? [00:00] you do it so well [00:00] Ok... [00:01] #startmeeting [00:01] Meeting started at 18:01. The chair is cprofitt. [00:01] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [00:01] Welcome to the UCLP meeting [00:01] please say present if you are here and attending [00:01] present :) [00:02] please say present if you are here and attending [00:02] present [00:02] welcome dinda ;) [00:02] welcome DougieRichardson [00:03] I am giving doc a bit of time to get in here as the first topic is again his [00:03] hey all [00:03] and pleia has the next two... [00:03] if they are not here soon we can skip to my topics which are rather light [00:04] I have some small issues while we wait if you wish [00:04] sure [00:04] I brought up a test server here : [00:04] http://learn.bodhizazen.net/moodle/ [00:04] LINK received: http://learn.bodhizazen.net/moodle/ [00:05] we can use it any way we wish, although I have not set up openid [00:05] ssh access is available, to upload files [00:06] so if people need it for something, just point them in my direction [00:06] any more bodhi_zazen or should I start with my topics? [00:06] /end side track [00:06] [TOPIC] Opinions on the Moodle Course - Good, Bad or Other. [00:06] New Topic: Opinions on the Moodle Course - Good, Bad or Other. [00:07] [LINK] http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=3 [00:07] LINK received: http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=3 [00:07] there are two other courses I have uploaded [00:07] http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=5 [00:07] LINK received: http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=5 [00:07] http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=6 [00:07] LINK received: http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=6 [00:07] I am curious what people thought of the structure of those courses [00:07] they were 'found' by me, but not created by me. [00:08] any comments at all or should we move on? [00:08] I liked the structure of http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=3 [00:09] the one on OOO looked good, did not look at all of it [00:09] the one on gimp / inkscape was a bit scant [00:09] yes, the GIMP one was small... [00:10] dinda, or DougieRichardson any comments? [00:11] [TOPIC] [00:11] Need for Moodle Instructors to guide other teams. [00:11] New Topic: [00:11] [TOPIC] Need for Moodle Instructors to guide other teams. [00:11] New Topic: Need for Moodle Instructors to guide other teams. [00:11] accident CR there [00:11] o/ [00:11] go ahead Vantrax [00:12] sorry for the delay, hazzards of being at work [00:12] I know those well... [00:12] ok... on the topic of Instructors [00:13] just saying hello, i have no idea whats going on yet:P [00:13] I would like to have us get some people who are willing to do that... [00:13] cprofitt: i see the license is NC [00:13] to teach other teams, etc how to use moodle effectively [00:13] dinda, it is... [00:13] on two of the three I believe [00:13] LOL [00:14] depending on what the group decides we may not want to hosts those [00:14] host [00:14] using Moodle is the easier part to teach, teaching them to build quality courses is another thing [00:14] yes, building quality courses is a big step. [00:14] I am still working on getting come curriculum writers interested in helping us [00:15] can someone catch me up on what has already been covered? [00:15] mechanics of using Moodle is pretty straight forward [00:15] dinda, working with the teachers I do - I would disagree [00:15] I have several educators that have found Moodle a bit of a struggle [00:16] so I think having one course and a 'guide' to assist with just using the tools would be a good idea [00:16] sorry I'm late [00:16] +1 on intro to moodle [00:16] no problem pleia2 we still need Doc for his topic [00:16] it makes it more "user friendly", lol [00:16] can be short [00:16] any other thoughts on intro to Moodle course being necessary? [00:16] I would like to add it officially to out 'to do' list [00:17] only thing is, there are already existing courses/sites that teach Moodle so why do we need to import those courses here instead of just linking to them? [00:17] +1 linky :) [00:17] dinda, linking would be better... if you have the resource links please share them with us [00:18] i agree with that, id like to avoid reinventing the wheel [00:18] cprofitt: the course material you imported - is that on a live site? [00:18] though if we have 'non-standard' modules we may need some material on those [00:18] dinda, I think it is on a live site, but not sure if it is hosted as a course or just as a download [00:18] I doubt there is a 'guide' (as in live person) attached to it [00:20] the details of 'how' we provide can be worked on later... do we agree we need to have some form of intro to using moodle -- be it pointed to or built? [00:20] +1 [00:20] +1 [00:20] [VOTE] UCLP should include a course (or link to a course) on how to use Moodle [00:20] Please vote on: UCLP should include a course (or link to a course) on how to use Moodle. [00:20] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [00:20] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [00:20] +1 [00:20] +1 [00:20] +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [00:20] +1 received from cprofitt. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [00:20] +1 [00:20] +1 received from dinda. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [00:20] +1 [00:20] +1 received from DougieRichardson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [00:21] any more votes? [00:21] * dinda waves to Dougie [00:21] any more votes? [00:21] * cprofitt using Robert's Rules [00:21] hey dinda [00:21] any more votes - last call [00:21] [ENDVOTE] [00:21] Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4 [00:22] \o/ [00:22] [AGREED] UCLP should include a course (or link to a course) on how to use Moodle [00:22] AGREED received: UCLP should include a course (or link to a course) on how to use Moodle [00:22] [TOPIC] Canonical offered to put us in touch with the SFLS, should we take them up on this offer? [00:22] New Topic: Canonical offered to put us in touch with the SFLS, should we take them up on this offer? [00:22] You are up pleia2 [00:22] ok, not much to say with this [00:22] greg-g offered some assistance [00:23] but I think if we remain at a stalemate licensing/legal-wise, we should contact SFLS [00:23] pleia2, I think we should take them up on the offer... and should prepare a list of questions outside of IRC [00:24] * pleia2 nods [00:24] so that there is less 'argument' pre asking them for the advice [00:24] dinda, what is involved in us getting that help? [00:24] I don't want to hold things up if we actually can agree :) I expect SFLS might take a little while [00:24] always good to have them in your back pocket, even if not used immediately [00:24] I just need the team mailing list address or should it just be sent to the project leads? [00:24] +1 , I hope outside advice will make the issue less contentious [00:25] leads would be better at this time I think... [00:25] dinda: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-learning [00:25] so ubuntu-learning@lists.ubuntu.com [00:25] but it is no skin off my nose either way [00:25] yeah, im thinking jsut the board [00:25] i havent actually made the list on the LP for the board [00:25] oh [00:26] and something is eating all my mail from that list, so not sure what is up with that [00:26] do the board members think drafting questions ahead of time would be a good idea? [00:26] yep [00:26] ill give you the LP list for the board contact soon as i have it dinda [00:27] [VOTE] The UCLP board will contact the SFLS and each board member will prepare a list of questions ahead of time [00:27] Please vote on: The UCLP board will contact the SFLS and each board member will prepare a list of questions ahead of time. [00:27] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [00:27] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [00:27] okay, that will work [00:27] +1 [00:27] +1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [00:27] +1 [00:27] +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [00:27] * dinda goes to resubscribe to the list [00:27] +1 [00:27] +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [00:27] +1 [00:27] +1 received from DougieRichardson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [00:27] +1 [00:27] +1 received from dinda. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5 [00:28] +1 [00:28] +1 received from Vantrax. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6 [00:28] any more votes? [00:28] although I am not sure if each member needs a list, perhaps a discussion on mailing list would be better ? [00:28] any more votes? [00:28] yes [00:28] any more votes? [00:28] that is a good idea bodhi [00:28] [ENDVOTE] [00:28] Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6 [00:28] [AGREED] The UCLP board will contact the SFLS and each board member will prepare a list of questions ahead of time [00:28] AGREED received: The UCLP board will contact the SFLS and each board member will prepare a list of questions ahead of time [00:28] but i think we might be better keeping this one on the board list as opposed to the group list. Its going to be painful as it is [00:29] I do not think we each need to send our own list, but I think we should all prepare a list ahead of time [00:29] +1 [00:29] I think mailing list makes it easier [00:29] [TOPIC] Canonical may require us to host on their servers if we want to use the learn.ubuntu.com name - thoughts? [00:29] New Topic: Canonical may require us to host on their servers if we want to use the learn.ubuntu.com name - thoughts? [00:29] you are up again pleia2 [00:29] I am OK with it so long as we have access [00:29] I presume we would all find this acceptable? [00:29] we hadn't really talked about it [00:30] I got a bunch of good info from our lead Sys Admin, James Troup, the infamous elmo [00:30] which means me, unles someone else wants to sys admin [00:30] I can paste relevant bits in here [00:30] thanks dinda [00:30] go ahead dinda [00:30] From James: I'm happy to host their server, in fact I'd really prefer to if it's going to be learn.ubuntu.com. The issues around it are: [00:30] there are some pros that I can think of... the project would more smoothly be able to have a transition in leadership if Canonical hosted. [00:30] 1) them having root on the server [00:31] 2) them having admin access to moodle interface [00:31] 3) them having write access to the running moodle code [00:31] 4) what version of moodle they run [00:31] (1) would be very hard and may be a blocker if they're convinced they need it (but they don't. No one else, forums or loco included have root.) [00:31] (2) is not a problem for me [00:31] (3) and (4) kind of combine. We'd need them to run a stable/released version of moodle for security reasons. [00:32] Even assuming we get agreement on that, we'd really prefer not to do (3) but instead have the code be in a bzr tree that they can request us to pull their changes from after we've review them. That's negotiable though. [00:32] Hope that helps/makes sense. [00:32] end message [00:32] it does make sense [00:32] * DougieRichardson mumbles about the response time of the web team [00:32] I've used bzr on the canonical servers before, the system works out nicely [00:32] dinda: there is one instance we do need scp access to be able to update the theme, its copied directly into a folder in the moodle directory [00:32] exactly dougie, tell us your experiences - might help [00:32] for websites [00:32] so we would need scp or sftp access [00:33] well we deal with them for the wiki/front page [00:33] there is no web admin for adding themes [00:33] how often would that need to be done? [00:33] Vantrax: for both sites I work with on canonical severs, they gave me shell access [00:33] there was a google exploit bug reported last year - still not fixed [00:34] dinda: as often was we change or update the theme, that would be quite alot in the first few months, then slowing down [00:35] could you get to a stable point then update before going live? [00:35] dinda: they don't tend to respond too quickly in general - perhaps not an issue for day to day admin but if there's a big problem, how do we guaruntee uptime [00:35] we could still have our test server... and then release to the hosted server I guess... [00:35] dinda: if we do not have root access, what kind of response time will we have if we need something on the site ? [00:35] sftp / scp access [00:35] moodle settings adjusted [00:35] php adjustments ? [00:35] DougieRichardson: that was one thing they specifically said -uptime would be better if they/Canonical hosted [00:36] bodhi_zazen: honestly, no idea [00:36] dinda: not uptime, response time if root access needed [00:36] it seems to depend on how nice you are to them, where you catch them in the release cycle, IRC [00:37] bodhi_zazen: typically it's somewhat slow, but you can submit an RT ticket and follow up in IRC to get things done more quickly [00:37] pleia2: what are your experiences? [00:37] there is an IRC channel where they lurk, if you have an RT ticket number they tend to be helpful :) [00:37] I would suggest it may be best if we keep the server we have until the site is set up, then transition ? [00:37] +1 [00:37] thats not a bad idea bodhi_zazen [00:37] bodhi_zazen: yeah, plus we won't get learn.ubuntu.com until the project is running anyway :) [00:38] bodhi_zazen, that would be a good plan [00:38] pleia2: define "slow" like a month? weeks? days? [00:38] I still share your fear about issues and having them resolved [00:38] dinda: if you *only* file an RT ticket, could be months [00:38] I would like to see terms spelled out for something like this [00:38] dinda: I can usually get things done in a week if I submit a ticket and followup a few days later [00:38] If i purchase a VPS, there is an agreement on access time [00:39] it the response time is a week, the project will need to be more stable then it is now [00:39] I know the project may not be a priority at first but I guarantee if the forums goes down or needs something it gets attention b/c they have so many users [00:39] and as we are using things such as openid, how would that work ? [00:40] so if the project takes off and visibility is high, then quicker service might be there [00:40] bodhi_zazen: the sysadmins tend to have to approve additional modules to core packages (like drupal), I am sure moodle would be no different [00:40] So those would be the disadvantages of hosting with Canonical then [00:41] bodhi_zazen: is the OpenID module part of the packaged moodle d/l i the repositories? or does it come from elsewhere? [00:41] response time and Canonical would need to approve things such as openid and what not [00:41] I know we already have the module running on our own Moodle server [00:41] welcome doctormo [00:41] Why am I always late [00:41] dinda: it comes from the moodle openid on Launchpad [00:41] * doctormo hits his head against a brick wall [00:41] welcome doctormo [00:41] * dinda hands doctormo a special watch that runs "fast" [00:42] I think we would like to know more about how the hosting would work [00:42] I would have to bow to bodhi_zazen for what we 'need' in terms of running the Moodle server [00:42] as he has done that for us skillfully [00:42] cprofitt: +1 [00:42] cprofitt: perhaps setting up a meeting with you and other project sys admins with elmo would be best? [00:42] welcome doctormo [00:42] I am not really a sysadmin in the project [00:43] the admin side is mostly bodhi, with a little of me [00:43] bodhi_zazen, has been the sole person responsible [00:43] it would have to include bodhi_zazen [00:43] lol [00:43] I have added courses... but my admin has been all through the user interface or asking bodhi_zazen to raise upload limits [00:44] Did we define roles yet? [00:44] upload limits - ugh, yes, had that issue as well [00:44] bodhi_zazen, are you willing to discuss the issues with elmo for us? [00:44] not yet doctormo [00:44] waited for you to get here [00:44] Because I'd vote bodhi_zazen systems guy. [00:44] bodhi_zazen: I'll introduce you to elmo via email and let you two chat via IRC then? [00:44] Thanks for waiting, I'm terribly sorry. [00:45] bodhi_zazen, are you good with that? [00:45] That would be great dinda [00:45] [AGREED] bodhi_zazen will talk with elmo about Canonical hosting [00:45] AGREED received: bodhi_zazen will talk with elmo about Canonical hosting [00:45] elmo was on the CC until all the current memberships expired [00:46] [TOPIC] Licensing [00:46] and he's usually around freenode but located in London for time reference [00:46] New Topic: Licensing [00:46] it sounds as if in the long run we ill move to Canonical if we want learn.ubuntu.com ;) [00:46] cprofitt: add that as a task [00:46] bodhi_zazen: was it decided to use an alternative domain name? [00:46] I would like to move that we table the license discussion until we know more about the hosting and have some contact with the SFLS [00:46] no doctormo [00:47] doctormo: we have to for a while, canonical wants to see quality courses being developed before they give us the l.u.c [00:47] I think we are exploring the options and need more information to be honest [00:47] cprofitt: I would second with the addition that we put it as a task to contact the SFLS for advice. [00:47] * cprofitt motions to table discussion on licensing until the hosting and SFLS have been contacted [00:47] i agree cprofitt [00:47] is there a consensus on licensing ? [00:48] [VOTE] Table licensing discussion until more details are ironed out on hosting and SFLS have been contacted [00:48] Please vote on: Table licensing discussion until more details are ironed out on hosting and SFLS have been contacted. [00:48] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [00:48] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [00:48] +1 [00:48] +1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [00:48] +1 [00:48] +1 received from doctormo. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [00:48] +0 [00:48] Abstention received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2 [00:48] +1 [00:48] +1 received from Vantrax. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3 [00:49] any more votes [00:49] just noting that Canonical has no official recommendation on the topic. . but elmo did offer some advice [00:49] dinda: about licensing? [00:49] what was elmo's advice / [00:49] under his ex-community council hat [00:49] quoting from elmo: IMO (with my (ex-)community council hat on), they can't use CC-BY-SA-NC and be 'learn.ubuntu.com' or an official Ubuntu project - it's not a Free (as defined by Ubuntu) license. [00:50] I'd strongly recommend (we encourage them to/)they go with CC-BY-SA which is a Free license and the most appropriate for this sort of material. [00:50] end quote [00:50] any more votes [00:50] +1 [00:50] +1 received from pleia2. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4 [00:50] +1 [00:50] +1 received from dinda. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5 [00:50] any more votes [00:50] cprofitt: Can I get non commital show of hands for support for CC-BY-SA, and a different show of hands for NC avoidance? [00:50] [ENDVOTE] [00:50] Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 5 [00:50] +0 [00:50] +0 [00:50] doctormo, at this time no [00:51] I would prefer to wait as we have decided until we have more information [00:51] that piece is important [00:51] but I think it is reasonable to wait until we have all the facts previously discussed [00:51] [TOPIC] Governance [00:51] cprofitt: I'm fairly certain that we know what we're doing, but I agree the SFLC should be contacted to be sure. [00:51] New Topic: Governance [00:52] not sure how added that topic [00:52] who [00:52] Sounds like my topic ;) [00:52] bodhi_zazen go ahead [00:53] I would just like to suggest that we give some serious thought to team structure and governance [00:53] +1 bodhi_zazen [00:53] from my experience with the BT , these can become problematic [00:53] issues we have had on the BT - [00:53] I would like to suggest that we build a draft page for people to place their ideas on how to improve the current structure [00:53] 1. people come and want to join the team. [00:54] everyone is happy, until said person starts acting out is some way or upsets people [00:54] how long are the terms of the current project leaders? [00:54] so a process for joining team, and one for removing from the team as well [00:54] we set them as two years dinda [00:54] 2 years, same as other councils [00:54] that too dinda [00:54] but that has not been 'published' [00:55] We need rules for things such as voting, simple majority, super majority ? etc, etc [00:55] how long do you set the regular members LP membership for? [00:55] On the BT I use 1 year [00:56] I do not think that has been determined with this team [00:56] bodhi_zazen, you are correct we have not done that === nellery_ is now known as nellery [00:56] was curious b/c I randomly decided for 1 year on the Texas Loco team [00:56] we formed the board - and the board needs to set those things in motion [00:56] My input here would be: we have to make sure that our governance doesn't follow the service orentated pattern of the BT too closely, I believe what we are doing here is more like the production/product team which should follow a more typical software project structure. [00:56] figured a year was long enough to see if they were going to hang around [00:56] would you agree that having us set a draft page would be a good idea? [00:56] doctormo: +1 [00:57] cprofitt: sounds good [00:57] cprofitt: Can the bot handle multiple options with instant runoff? :-D [00:57] I am merely suggesting we put some structure in place [00:58] bodhi_zazen, does making a draft page work or should we discuss in email? [00:58] doctormo: would you like to start on that ? [00:58] bodhi_zazen, I agree we need structure... but we have to start the conversation and IRC is likely not the best medium for that [00:58] I do not have a strong opinion [00:58] would love to see that draft page, the Doc Team ran into some issues when no one knew or understood the process for joining various levels of teams/internal team projects [00:58] bodhi_zazen: +1, some structure, we have our council for decision making, that's a good start [00:58] doctormo, it does not allow multiple values [00:59] [VOTE] Add a draft page for team structure - how decision and votes will be done, membership, etc [00:59] Please vote on: Add a draft page for team structure - how decision and votes will be done, membership, etc. [00:59] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [00:59] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [00:59] +1 [00:59] +1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [00:59] +1 [00:59] +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [00:59] +1 [00:59] +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [00:59] +1 [00:59] +1 received from doctormo. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [00:59] +1 [00:59] +1 received from dinda. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5 [00:59] I'll add my thoughts there then [00:59] _1 [00:59] +1 [00:59] +1 received from Vantrax. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6 [00:59] +1 [00:59] +1 received from DougieRichardson. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7 [00:59] any more votes [00:59] any more votes [00:59] last call for votes [01:00] [ENDVOTE] [01:00] Final result is 7 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 7 [01:00] [AGREED] Draft page to be created for structure [01:00] AGREED received: Draft page to be created for structure [01:00] Vantrax, can you make the page? [01:00] er yeah, later today, im mad busy at work atm [01:01] Im stuck doing AD migration testing till this afternoon [01:01] AD migration... fun [01:01] I did that years ago... [01:01] I can make the shell then... [01:03] thank you for attending that is the end of our time... === lukjad007 is now known as ShadowChild [01:03] #endmeeting [01:03] Meeting finished at 19:03. [01:03] #ubuntu-learning for more please [01:04] thanks all! [01:04] bye all [01:04] night DougieRichardson === ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae === thekorn is now known as _thekorn === _thekorn is now known as thekorn === ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007 [10:55] * persia peers about [10:56] * andrew_46 also peers about.... [10:57] * talsemgeest wishes andrew_46 luck in this channel as well [10:57] hello [10:57] how do I request a slot to have a meeting in this channel? [10:57] (an Ubuntu Studio team meeting) [10:57] luisbg, Just invite the calendar to an empty slot. [10:58] See http://fridge.ubuntu.com/events [10:58] through Google Calendar? [10:58] persia, you mean http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar :P [10:58]