[00:23] <djsiegel__> beuno: macvr: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaperCut
[00:29] <macvr> djsiegel_: is it possible to edit this page > https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+filebug#form-start < rather than "Read more here" at the bottom , placing it just below the guidelines with a label : "Papercuts can help Ubuntu"
[00:30] <macvr> OR some other label to make it interesting for the users to look at the wiki?
[00:30] <djsiegel__> macvr: huh?
[00:30] <djsiegel__> if you want to write better copy to go there, do it and I can paste it there
[00:31] <djsiegel__> macvr: my mind is starting to go -- end of the day ;)
[00:31] <macvr> I'm not sure how to edit launchpad... i'll try and figure it out...
[00:32] <macvr> oh... i found the prob with the link!
[00:33] <macvr> djsiegel_: https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+filebug-advanced < this is the link
[00:35] <macvr> i'm literally having a headache going through the rants! so was just wondering if there was someway to prevent new bugs , by luring the users to read the wiki first... well ... gonna take a break ;p
[00:36] <djsiegel__> macvr: no, unfortunately there isn't
[00:36] <djsiegel__> take a break if you are getting a headache :)
[00:36] <macvr> :(
[00:36] <djsiegel__> can you point me at some of these rants?
[00:37] <macvr> ah pls.... i dont want to look back.:(
[00:37] <djsiegel__> ok :)
[00:39] <macvr> its more because i'v subscribed to the papercuts project, so i get every mail in the project, some i get interested, and jump in... 
[09:11] <macvr> beuno: hi... does this seem like a simple papercut?https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rdesktop/+bug/251709 . its more of a non-regular user issue , can i mark it as invalid only in papaercuts ?
[12:02]  * MacSlow -> lunch
[13:43] <mpt> macvr, you're correct, that's not a paper cut in our current definition
[13:43] <macvr> thanx :)
[13:44] <macvr> mpt: are you also part of papercuts?
[13:44] <mpt> macvr, I wish I had time to, but I don't really :-]
[13:45] <macvr> this thing is getting out of hand!
[13:45] <macvr> people keep assigning old bugs to this project! :(
[16:59] <macvr> djsiegel_: hi... something you might be interested in > https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/388121
[16:59]  * djsiegel_ looks
[16:59] <djsiegel_> macvr: yes, I love this bug
[17:00] <macvr> :)
[17:07] <tedg> djsiegel_: Not really a papercut though.  Upstream for gnome-session is convinced it shouldn't really do this and that all programs should be rewritten to always save data instantly.  It will take use implementing it well in gnome-session to get it fixed.  There was some (very late) work for Jaunty, but I'm not sure if it'll continue.
[17:07] <djsiegel_> tedg: Oh, for sure it's not a paper cut
[17:08] <djsiegel_> and I am more interested in the visual behavior of shutdown (see my comment)
[17:56] <djsiegel_> macvr: keep up the great work on paper cuts! :)
[17:56] <macvr> djsiegel_: i'm getting addicted to nuking... :)
[17:56] <djsiegel_> hehe
[17:56] <djsiegel_> be careful
[17:57] <djsiegel_> one day I did a few hundred bugs
[17:57] <djsiegel_> with each bug, I got faster
[17:57] <djsiegel_> more curt
[17:57] <macvr> :)
[17:57] <djsiegel_> by the end of the day, I was marking invalid with very little explanation or gratitude to the reporter
[17:57] <djsiegel_> but you seem to be doing a very good job with your comment template approach
[17:58] <djsiegel_> macvr: oh, and one thing to look out for
[17:58] <macvr> I give an explanation , why this isnt a papercut...
[17:58] <djsiegel_> hundredpapercuts is drawing a lot of new blood into our community
[17:58] <djsiegel_> User experience *professionals* who want to help out in open source for the first time
[17:58] <macvr> djsiegel_: haha^
[17:58] <djsiegel_> if you find a person like that reporting a bug (you may be able to tell from how they report it)
[17:58] <djsiegel_> handle them with kid gloves
[17:59] <djsiegel_> we don't want them to be discouraged
[17:59] <macvr> :)
[17:59] <djsiegel_> we *really* need them to stick around, they are really valuable
[17:59] <macvr> yeah...
[17:59] <djsiegel_> in a few years, we could have hundredpapercuts projects springing up all over the place
[17:59] <djsiegel_> just like regular OSS projects
[17:59] <djsiegel_> but complementary \
[18:00] <macvr>  I mostly nuke the simple ones, rarely the bigger ones...
[18:00] <djsiegel_> heck, we could have that in a few months
[18:00] <macvr> djsiegel_: i wonder who's idea this was?
[18:00] <macvr> yours?
[18:00] <djsiegel_> I don't think it was mine
[18:00] <djsiegel_> I did a project like with with GNOME Do
[18:00] <macvr> naming?
[18:00] <djsiegel_> like this*
[18:01] <djsiegel_> I think it was conceived by the canonical design team
[18:01] <macvr> i really digg the name , i think it has drawn more attention to the unique name
[18:01] <macvr> due to^
[18:02] <djsiegel_> the power of branding
[18:02] <macvr> yeah... 
[18:03] <djsiegel_> macvr: here is my ideal way hundredpapercuts would work
[18:03] <djsiegel_> we have a pool of thousands of confirmed paper cuts
[18:03] <djsiegel_> each cycle, we pick 100
[18:03] <djsiegel_> then, 100 community members step up, and each person claims a paper cut
[18:03] <macvr> nice
[18:03] <djsiegel_> they go out and do some user testing, gather data, and make a design suggestion
[18:03] <djsiegel_> it gets fixed, and they blog about it
[18:04] <djsiegel_> we get everyone really interested in user-centered design, and Linux usability grows by leaps and bounds
[18:05] <macvr> :) happy days
[18:05] <djsiegel_> if we had 100 people driving user testing each cycle...
[18:05] <djsiegel_> wow
[18:05] <djsiegel_> maybe that can be a goal for ayatana
[18:06] <djsiegel_> we could create a UCD certification
[18:06] <djsiegel_> and have our goal be to get 100 people certified
[18:06] <djsiegel_> and create an ayatana planet where all of their blog posts about open source usability in Ubuntu are collected
[18:06] <djsiegel_> wow
[18:06] <macvr> i think UCD already exists
[18:06] <djsiegel_> yes, it does
[18:07] <djsiegel_> we just want to put the spotlight on it
[18:07] <macvr> but sometimes too many cooks, could be bad too... ;p
[18:07] <djsiegel_> right now, design concerns take a back seat to technical concerns, because s/he who commits the patch makes the rules.
[18:08] <djsiegel_> but I have to get going
[18:08] <macvr> djsiegel_: apart from papercuts... there is one issue which is a big bother > when users upgrade from old releases to new , cruft from previous releases remain , these traces of the old config do not allow proper functioning of the new features in the new release... something needs to be done about that...
[18:09] <macvr> ok...
[18:09] <djsiegel_> yeah, that doesn't seem like an ayatana issue
[18:09] <djsiegel_> but an issue for sure
[18:10] <djsiegel_> I think Ubuntu's ability to freely and massively update every 6 months is one of our greatest incentives for users to pick Ubuntu over  Mac OS or Windows
[18:10] <macvr> thats what drew me in :)
[18:10] <djsiegel_> if we could ensure that a single install could update seamlessly, every six months, for a decade, that would be a great victory
[18:11] <macvr> that would be great ^
[18:11] <djsiegel_> Apple and Microsoft simply will never be able to move that fast
[18:12] <djsiegel_> Whenever I take a 5 or 6-year old Dell that barely works, and put the latest and greatest release of Ubuntu on it for friends, they go wild
[18:12] <djsiegel_> "wow, it's fast"
[18:12] <djsiegel_> "wow, this software is all up-to-date"
[18:13] <djsiegel_> "Buy a PC with Ubuntu, and your software will never be more than 6 months old, and will never cost you anything"
[18:13] <macvr> ^ yeah i get the same reactions
[18:14] <djsiegel_> ivanka: ^ brand proposition
[18:14] <macvr> djsiegel_: i just brought this up with you, so that you could bring it up in a related meeting/discussion sometime.... IF you remember... :)
[18:14] <djsiegel_> I will remember, it's part of my job :)
[18:15] <macvr> :)
[18:46] <macvr> djsiegel_: you were mentioning about >  User experience *professionals* , i dont think i'v encountered them yet... but do you know who they are? a heads up would be nice... so that i could add more specific info to the comments...
[20:57] <macvr> https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/392241 ...lol!
[21:14] <djsiegel_> macvr: don't use SCREAMING CAPS
[21:14] <djsiegel_> please
[21:14] <djsiegel_> macvr: also, you have some weird indentation in some of your sentences
[21:15] <macvr> screaming caps? where? 
[21:17] <macvr> sometimes... i use it more to highlight... ,  i think that full caps sentences are screaming.. i didnt intend as screaming...  i will wbe more careful though :)
[21:18] <macvr> djsiegel_: could you give me an example where i did this? so that i could correct?
[21:19] <djsiegel_> "ONLY" "IF" and "BUT"
[21:19] <djsiegel_> some people might find it patronizing
[21:19] <macvr> oh... ok.
[21:19] <macvr> i was just trying that as highlight, since formatting isnt possible..
[21:20] <macvr> djsiegel_: Also, you were mentioning about >  User experience *professionals* , i dont think i'v encountered them yet... but do you know who they are? a heads up would be nice... so that i could add more specific info to the comments...
[21:20] <djsiegel_> just be on the lookout for someone who seems new, who genuinely wants to gather data or do user testing
[21:20] <djsiegel_> if they cite a source, for example, they probably have some experience
[21:20] <macvr> ok...
[21:20] <djsiegel_> if they say "we did a study and found that..."
[21:21] <djsiegel_> some people use language like "I think" or "I would like"
[21:21] <macvr> I'v never encountered those yet... , but i saw 1 blogger , and made sure i was very informative :)
[21:21] <djsiegel_> that's a sign that they are just giving their opinion
[21:21] <djsiegel_> and maybe not considering the needs of users
[21:22] <macvr> will watch out... :)
[21:51] <mrooney> macvr: also I don't see why that couldn't be a bug, windows don't need to be on top to have focus
[21:54] <macvr> mrooney: the option is "Always on top" , correct me if I'm wrong, AFAIK  it means always display the window on top...  
[21:54] <mrooney> macvr: but the bug report is about focus not z-order
[21:55] <mrooney> I have windows focused below other windows all the time
[21:55] <mrooney> just mark a window as always on top, then click in a window under it, it will have focus
[21:55] <mrooney> the report is just saying that it should get focus from the beginning
[21:56] <macvr> mrooney: oh.. ok.. 
[21:56] <macvr> mrooney: thats why i had mentioned that if he still felt it was a bug , to assign it to the package :)
[21:57] <mrooney> macvr: okay but "This is not a bug , because the user clearly has turned on the always on top feature. So the window IS going to be on top. And no window can make it loose focus." is objectively wrong
[21:58] <mrooney> I'll open a compiz task and add a comment mentioning that
[21:59] <macvr> mrooney: i have tried to reproduce the bug, the Alt +F2  has the focus, not the window on top...
[21:59] <macvr> mrooney: you might want to try and reproduce it...
[22:00] <mrooney> right, I can't reproduce it, my comments weren't about that
[22:00] <mrooney> I just wanted to point you were confusing z-order and focus and gave the reporter incorrect information :)
[22:00] <macvr> got it..