=== lukjad007 is now known as ShadowChild
luisbg_hello guys01:50
luisbg__MMA_, hey, long time no see01:50
luisbg_anybody besides TheMuso and ScottL around?01:59
TheMusoOk. Who do we have here for the UbuntuStudio meeting?01:59
* luisbg_ raises his hand02:00
TheMusoI know stochastic wanted to try and make this meeting.02:00
ScottLI'm here for the Ubuntu Studio meeting02:00
luisbg_hello Scott02:00
luisbg_TheMuso, want to run the show?02:00
luisbg_or wait for more people to attend?02:00
TheMusoSure. Do we have an agenda documented anywhere?02:00
ScottLhello luis...brb02:00
luisbg_TheMuso, not really, more an open forum... imprompta02:01
TheMusoI'll give stochastic a few minutes to show up.02:01
TheMusofair enough02:01
luisbg_talk about the future first02:01
luisbg_and then follow that02:01
TheMusoOk will if stochastic shows up, he can jump in.02:03
luisbg_we can wait till past 10 maybe?02:03
TheMusoOk, so I think we need to start by looking at the jaunty release, and how it was received, and identify what was good, and what was not so good.02:03
TheMusoI'll start, the RT kernel was bad.02:03
luisbg_the key thing is to figure out how the development process can be improved02:04
TheMusoYeah, and the kernel is something I want to bring up a bit later.02:04
TheMusoSupporting firewire hardware was good.02:05
ScottLhow was the integration between pulseaudio and jack?02:05
TheMusoThanks to rexbron's great work.02:05
TheMusoScottL: Not sure, I don't remember seeing any user reports about that, but it should have been ok.02:05
luisbg_I dont recall any words about pa/jack02:06
TheMusoIf we can get the right bits to land for karmic, it should be even better.02:06
luisbg_pulseaudio gives generic problems to all linux users02:06
TheMusoWell, its more that pulse exposes bugs in ALA, for the msot part at least.02:07
luisbg_I see02:07
TheMusoThe good thing is that pulseaudio is being developed so rapidly that things are always improving.02:07
TheMusoI still think we need pulseaudio in the studio desktop, but as I said, work is ongoing upstrea to improve the communication/integration between pulse and jack.02:08
luisbg_TheMuso, I agree02:08
luisbg_majority of users want to be able to skype in the same machine they play with ardour/blender02:09
TheMusoThe other thing that was good last release is the desktop task not being shown on install, as it just gets installed now.02:09
TheMusoluisbg_: Yeah, but pulse and skype is going to be an ongoing issue till skype fix their broken use of alsa, or support pulseaudio.02:09
luisbg_it was just an example02:09
TheMusoThere is also bluetooth to consider, but thats more a consumer use case.02:10
luisbg_more good and bad features?02:10
luisbg_art was even better02:10
luisbg_lot of people gave me kudos about that02:10
TheMusoScottL: Do you have anything else to mention?02:11
TheMusoluisbg_: Cool.02:11
ScottLTheMuso: not really since I still Hardy02:11
TheMusoScottL: Right.02:11
TheMusoOk well I think we02:11
TheMusoOk well I think we'll move on02:11
TheMusoThe important thing to me at the moment is what do we do about RT. Unfortunately, the RT patches are always somewhat behind the latest mainline kernel upstream release. We tried getting patches for RT for kernel 2.6.28, which failed badly./02:12
luisbg_sadly Im not aware of the details involved02:13
luisbg_never got time to learn how the process works02:13
luisbg_and do it myself for once02:13
TheMusoWe now look at a situation for karmic, where the main kernel will be 2.6.31. We don't even have 2.6.30 RT patches yet, and I don't want to go down the same route we did for jaunty.02:13
luisbg_so I think in this room you are the expert02:13
luisbg_I will follow what you think is best02:13
luisbg_do you see any solution?02:13
TheMusoOk, I am just laying everything out. I wish there were a few more here to have input on this, but anyway.02:13
TheMusoOriginally, I was thinking that we ship the latest kernel version that has upstrea supported RT patches. However this has been thrown into doubt, as we start getting pieces into the desktop that will require kernel 2.6.31 or better.02:14
ScottLWouldn't it be better to have older patched RT kernel than current generic kernel?02:14
ScottLsorry, typed too slow02:14
TheMusoSo at this point, I think we keep an eye on the RT patches as the cycle progresses, and we should find out whether 2.6.30 patches are coming, or even if 2.6.31 patches are planned.02:15
TheMusoI think we will no longer have Alessio Abogani's help as I think he has more real life concerns to deal with.02:15
luisbg_TheMuso, is there any problem if Studio doesnt have the same version of the kernel than main Ubuntu?02:15
luisbg_I recall there was02:15
luisbg_packaging probems and more02:15
persiaI believe having a different version of the kernel will only add to the burden.02:15
TheMusoluisbg_: Not really, but it may cause unusual/weird breakage with desktop components, particularly pulseaudio.02:16
TheMusopersia: I am in agreement I think./02:16
luisbg_hello persia02:16
TheMusoThen there is the question of whether RT is still needed. Some users have reported that the generic kernel has been fine for their audio latency needs.02:17
ScottLwhat is the differential between RT latency and generic kernel latency?02:17
ScottLsorry again, typed too slow02:17
luisbg_TheMuso, hmmmmmm02:17
TheMusoI haven't measured it myself, so I can't say for sure, but I think generic wouldn't allow people with older hardware to get as good performance with their hardware.02:18
luisbg_it is an interesting topic (that of dropping RT)02:18
TheMusoI think we need to ask users to do some testing for us, to get an answer as to whether we should drop RT.02:18
ScottLTheMuso: would a single core computer be considered "older hardware"?02:18
persiaTheMuso, It's more than that.  RT generally gives better performance than generic even on newer hardware.  That most people can't hear the difference isn't always what is discussed.02:18
TheMusoScottL: Depends on how old that machine is.02:19
TheMusopersia: Right, I think we still need to get users to test for us though.02:19
luisbg_persia, and a lot of users want RT02:19
luisbg_even if they dont need it02:19
luisbg_they feel better with themselves :P02:19
persialuisbg, Right, which is the tricky bit.02:19
TheMusoSo given the mess we are in with trying to stay at the same version as Ubuntu, and not having RT patches, I am not sure where to go from here.02:20
luisbg_TheMuso, what do you reckon?02:21
luisbg_ask users02:21
TheMusopersia is right in what he says about RT giving better performance regardless of hardware.02:21
TheMusoAnd I think those users who tested generic may have not tested performance with a full session load, i.e ardour with multiple plugins and other apps.02:21
persiaAnd people always want to try to get more out of their hardware.02:22
TheMusoI think we just have to track upstream RT as well as we can, short of finding someone who knows the patches well enough to help us forward port them again.02:22
ScottLthis RT kernel availability issue will continue to be a problem, will it not?02:22
luisbg_TheMuso, Im sorry the burden of RT is going to fall into your workload02:22
TheMusoScottL: I think it will be, particularly if we want to track Ubuntu's kernel version, yes.02:22
persiaI don't think it's a useful thing to ask users.  On the other hand, I think it is a useful thing to offer RT iff we can get RT patches for the current kernel.02:22
luisbg_so if you want to deal with it02:22
luisbg_Im not going to say "No" :)02:22
TheMusoWell, if I deal with it, I'll be able to do less of other things. I am interested in getting an RT kernel happening, and integrating jack and pulse. I am happy to sponsor other work from others who work on other things, but my focus from here on out I think will be the core pieces.02:23
TheMusoWhich brings us to the next topic I think, which is manpower... Unless anyone has anything else to add about RT.02:24
luisbg_I know this is going to sound weird but...02:25
luisbg_RT is a big element in the "what differs Studio from main Ubuntu"02:25
luisbg_everytime somebody asks me about what is the difference02:25
luisbg_the conversation gets to a point where the question follows to02:25
TheMusoThat doesn't sound weird to me.02:26
luisbg_"so what is the difference of grabing main ubuntu and installing the metas (or a list of cool creative apps)?"02:26
luisbg_and RT falls into the "ok, that is a big difference"02:26
persiaInstalling the metas would install RT anyway.02:26
ScottLFWIW, I'd rather have a machine that records music well than supports latest kernel/apps02:26
ScottL*than* not that02:26
luisbg_ScottL, :)02:26
luisbg_persia, I agree, yes02:27
persiaThe difference between installing Desktop and Studio metas and installing Studio is mostly about the default theme.02:27
luisbg_but without RT the need for a separate install disk is very little02:27
persiaOh, and stuff like Network Manager vs. Network Utilities.02:27
luisbg_luckily Canonical helps us with the builds of the disks02:27
persiaI disagree.  I believe there is utility to having a disk with the applications.02:27
luisbg_so it doesnt really matter that much02:28
luisbg_oh yeah02:28
persiaMany people don't have optimised network connections in their studios.02:28
luisbg_off course having a 15 minute install and ready02:28
luisbg_is way better than 15 minute install, plus downloading and installing all the metas02:28
luisbg_if you can download off course02:28
persiaBut we've focused on RT for a while, to the detriment of other things.02:29
ScottLspeaking of manpower...I want to help, but limited with experience02:30
persiaI think we ought leave RT this cycle, to see what we can get from upstream, and call it best-effort.  Let's focus on polishing the other stuff (which takes us to manpower)02:30
ScottLI've only been using LInux for two years02:30
TheMusoI think we use the altest rt patches from upstream, and either work around, drop, or backport the patches we need for 2.6.31 desktop pieces. If that makes sense.02:30
luisbg_persia, we can have RT in the LTS and no RT in the other ones02:30
TheMusopersia: right02:30
persiaTheMuso, That does make sense.  I just don't think we should consider not having RT a blocker.02:30
persialuisbg, Having an RT requirement for LTS makes sense to me.02:30
luisbg_persia, and we can focus manpower into other stuff in non-LTS releases02:31
persia(There are also plenty of non-Studio RT users who would be served by that)02:31
luisbg_kinda like working in stages to a powerful LTS02:31
luisbg_I want to talk about manpower later btw ;)02:31
persiaWhat comes before manpower for our agenda then?02:32
luisbg_finishing with RT02:32
TheMusoI don't think there is anything else.02:32
TheMusoThats decided I think, best effort is all we can do.02:32
TheMusoI'll keep on it as well as I can.02:32
luisbg_trying to do RT in all releases as best as we can?02:33
TheMusoYep, but we don't attempt to forward port/backport RT patches unless we have someone who knows them intimately, and can be certain that there will be little to no problems;/02:34
TheMusoi.e we track upstream's available patches.02:34
TheMusoOk, so man power, and how we can recruit more help.,02:34
TheMusoThis is what it all comes down to.02:34
luisbg_and current developers and how much time they have for the project02:36
TheMusoI think the first place to start, is to get users testing the alphas at a minimum, and testing dailies at best.02:36
TheMusoluisbg_: Right.02:36
luisbg_with more responsabilities at work02:36
luisbg_and a full employee02:36
luisbg_as you guys have noticed probably... have less time than a year ago02:37
TheMusoluisbg_: Yep, and thats understandable.02:37
luisbg_I'm happy to offer the lead position to Luke02:37
luisbg_specially since he has more direct relations with the rest of community and canonical staff02:37
ScottLI'm dying to help with stuff if someone points me in the right direction02:37
TheMusoluisbg_: If you really don't think you can reliably take care of that position, and if there is nobody else who is interested in leading the project, then I may consider accepting.02:38
ScottLand willing to answer questions when I get stuck02:38
persiaScottL, I think you've hit the most critical bit.  Building a task list.02:38
luisbg_TheMuso, I will be available02:38
luisbg_just not as much02:38
persiaWe need some clear direction on goals, and some organisation of stuff needing doing.02:38
luisbg_and as you know slightly unmotivated after the whole UDS/OVC fiasco02:38
TheMusoluisbg_: Right.02:38
* ScottK wonders who this ScottL is?02:39
luisbg_TheMuso, I will tell you about OVC in an other moment02:39
TheMusoOk, I'll sit down this weekend and see if I can come up with a task list, and some bits on how people can get stuck into that task list to help.02:39
luisbg_TheMuso, dont worry about this... we will work something out02:39
ScottKSorry to interrupt, but it seemed funny from here.02:39
luisbg_TheMuso, about recruiting02:39
TheMusoluisbg_: ok02:40
luisbg_we should blog and shoot at the mailing lists soon02:40
luisbg_this is an approach we can take02:40
luisbg_ScottL, want to help recruiting?02:40
TheMusoSince my recent rekindling interest in producing music, I want to keep the project alive, and will do what I can to keep it that way.02:40
luisbg_TheMuso, Im aware of that02:41
luisbg_and I want to hear that music of yours02:41
luisbg_and will help to get to listen to it :P02:41
luisbg_TheMuso, you prepare that task list02:41
TheMusoheh, it will be a while yet, but it will happen.02:41
luisbg_I will shout in blog and mailing lists02:41
luisbg_and ScottL will grab the task list and the people interested at my shouts02:41
TheMusoluisbg_: Ok sounds good, will have a look at it on the weekend.02:41
luisbg_and gather a work force :)02:41
luisbg_TheMuso, yeah... I will be in the middle of the ocean with no internet connection for the next week02:42
ScottLluisbg_: sounds like a plan02:42
luisbg_until Guadec starts (2nd of July)02:42
TheMusoluisbg_: right, I saw your message.02:42
luisbg_TheMuso, so staying with the manpower and managing of the project02:42
luisbg_something I want to change is making things a little more serious02:42
luisbg_I will grab the tasklist and write it as action items in a wikipage02:43
TheMusoI was thinking of wikifying it myself.02:43
luisbg_then with the help of Scott assign action items to people02:43
luisbg_TheMuso, perfect!02:43
TheMusoWhen I do the list, I'll put it on the wiki, and will let everyone know on the list.02:43
luisbg_then we can keep track of who is doing what02:44
luisbg_what is being done by whom02:44
persiaScheduling is always inconvenient, but regular meetings can often help with visibility and task tracking.02:44
luisbg_persia, I agree02:44
luisbg_my atempts of general meetings failed02:44
luisbg_so having a more person to person tracking system02:44
luisbg_will help me have one-to-one meetings02:44
persialuisbg, If you have the time to coordinate that...02:45
luisbg_and keeping track (I will have a file for myself in a project tracking app)02:45
luisbg_persia, I think it will take me the same time, it will just be more optimized02:45
luisbg_right now there is a lot of running around :P02:45
TheMusoluisbg_: If you feel thats all you can do for the project atm, thats fine by me at least.02:46
TheMusoWe just need some coordination and assigning of tasks, as already stated.02:46
luisbg_TheMuso, I will try to assign some action items to myself too02:46
luisbg_specially stuff related to parts of the project that Im experienced with02:46
luisbg_as I can do changes in the menu/controls quicker02:47
luisbg_TheMuso, going slightly off topic02:47
luisbg_but you and me need to decide a time that suits us both to talk every once in a while02:47
TheMusoluisbg_: Certainly, I'm happy for that to be a weekend if that suits you better.02:47
luisbg_right now it seams that every time I arrive at the office you are heading to bed, and when I leave the office you are waking up02:48
luisbg_what is your usual on-line time each day02:48
luisbg_if I know you are going to be online when it's 11pm here, Im happy to jump in to talk and then continue with my night02:49
TheMusoWorking week, from about 8:00AM/22:00UTC through to 5:00PM/0700:UTC02:49
TheMusoWeekends, it can vary.02:49
TheMusoBut if it has to be a weekend, I can make the time.02:50
TheMusoEven if thats the only studio thing I do for that weekend.02:50
luisbg_forget about weekends02:50
luisbg_let me check that 8-22 in respect to time difference02:51
TheMusoOk, we are almost out of time. Is there anything else?02:51
ScottLre: meetings, I personally prefer group meetings so I can understand what all is going on02:51
ScottLbut i understand that the two of you will need to discuss things02:51
TheMusoAnd with the existing team members so spread, thats not very easy. Look at the hassle we had getting this meeting going.02:52
luisbg_TheMuso, your 8am is my 11pm02:52
TheMusoluisbg_: Right, sounds good.02:52
luisbg_I will just ping you at 8:30 or around that time02:53
TheMusoOk sounds fine by me.02:53
luisbg_ScottL, do you have skype?02:53
ScottLluisbg_: not at the moment, haven't really had a need atm02:54
luisbg_not for now now02:54
luisbg_will might be calling you in a few weeks though :)02:54
luisbg_just something you should have in mind to get sorted02:54
ScottLit will be done02:54
luisbg_always easier to talk one-to-one on voice than chat chat chat :)02:54
luisbg_persia, any other topic you want to bring to the floor?02:55
TheMusoNews just to hand, 2.6.31-rc1 is out.02:55
persiaTheMuso, cool!02:57
persialuisbg, No.02:57
luisbg_Im happy we have a plan now :)02:57
luisbg_lets put it in motion02:57
luisbg_anything else before we close the meeting people?02:59
* luisbg_ has a plane to catch tomorrow :)02:59
TheMusoHave fun, and nothing from me.03:00
luisbg_TheMuso, talk to you soon and see you in August also \m/03:00
ScottLI have nothing more to add at this time03:00
luisbg_persia, are you coming to guadec by any chance?03:00
luisbg_ScottL, what is your time zone btw?03:01
persialuisbg, I'm not.03:01
ScottLcentral in the US03:01
luisbg_I lived 9 months in Denver03:01
TheMusoOk, till later folks.03:03
luisbg_hello cody-somerville03:03
luisbg_Meeting adjourned03:03
cody-somervilleHi luisbg_03:03
ScottLbye, talk to you soon03:03
luisbg_how is all cody?03:03
cody-somervilleluisbg_, all cody is well, thanks. yourself?03:04
luisbg_doing good03:04
luisbg_in hollidays :)03:04
luisbg_gotta go to sleep03:05
luisbg_night everybody!03:05
nextstepusrLong live Fedora03:37
nextstepusrcan we do something about maybe making a TV ad on Ubuntu03:39
bazhang!brainstorm > nextstepusr03:39
ubottunextstepusr, please see my private message03:39
nextstepusrI know about brainstorm but none of the users ideas are ever implements03:40
nextstepusrPeople please state their countey03:45
bazhangnextstepusr, chat in #ubuntu-offtopic03:45
slangasekcjwatson: yeah, I think I missed one of the implications from the conversation we had. :)09:11
=== cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson
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=== randa is now known as randa-lunch
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
persiadholbach, geser, nixternal, jpds, nhandler, soren: Are enough of you going to be about that I can miss the meeting in a bit?16:40
dholbachsoren and jpds wanted to be around16:41
dholbachnhandler is not going to be here16:41
dholbachdunno about geser and nixternal16:41
dholbachhello AnAnt16:42
* geser waves16:51
dholbachpersia: ^ :)16:51
dholbachhello everybody16:59
gaspauh, fridge and wiki are not coherent about the meeting start...17:00
gaspadholbach: is fridge right?17:00
dholbachgeser, jpds, soren: around?17:00
dholbachgaspa: we moved AnAnt a bit earlier because he couldn't attend the later meeting17:00
MootBotMeeting started at 11:00. The chair is dholbach.17:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]17:00
gesergaspa: we moved the meeting one hour before to suit AnAnt better17:00
gaspauops... so I should run home.17:01
dholbach[TOPIC] Contributing Developer application: أحمد المحمودي (Ahmed El-Mahmoudy)17:01
MootBotNew Topic:  Contributing Developer application: #-E/ 'DE-EH/J (Ahmed El-Mahmoudy)17:01
dholbachMootBot: you fail! :)17:01
dholbach[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%D8%A3%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AF%D9%8A/UniverseContributorApplication17:01
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%D8%A3%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AF%D9%8A/UniverseContributorApplication17:01
AnAntUTF8 problem ?17:01
dholbachlooks like, yes :)17:01
dholbachAnAnt: how are you doing?17:01
AnAntfine, thanks, how are you ?17:02
dholbacha bit tired... but generally alright :)17:02
dholbachAnAnt: what have you mostly been focusing ubuntu-wise in the last time? was it sabily?17:02
AnAntsome Debian packages17:03
AnAntbut a couple of months ago it was sabily17:03
AnAntlately dico got accepted17:03
dholbachwhat has the response been like regarding sabily?17:03
AnAntwhat response ?17:03
dholbachfrom users17:04
dholbachdid you see a great uptake after the sabily release?17:04
AnAntyes, I see many happy with it17:04
AnAntexcept for the web control software17:04
AnAntI noticed on the blueprints that Ubuntu is working on one, so probably we may use that17:05
dholbachwhat was the biggest challenge when you worked on sabily?17:05
AnAntother than that, users are happy with the applications we ship by default, and the themes17:05
dholbachI had a look at a few screenshots - it looked great :-)17:05
AnAnthmmm, the artwork packages were the biggest challenge I think17:06
AnAntthe reason, is that to make our themes the default themes, one had to do stuff with gconf & so17:06
AnAntbefore I worked on it, they used to do things in a way that is against Debian policy17:06
AnAntlike manually editing conf files & so17:07
dholbach*nod* that's what I heard from a few other derivatives too, that branding wasn't the easiest thing17:07
AnAntcurrently there is still one thing that is against the policy (that's the main reason that we didn't try to push it to Ubuntu repos yet)17:07
AnAntbut hopefully that would change after grub217:07
dholbachhow is the effort behind non-solar-based calendars coming on? to me it seems like there's quite a few components that would need changing17:08
AnAntdholbach: well, I only know of two software doing so: libitl0 & python-hijri17:08
AnAntpython-hijri isn't in Debian/Ubuntu yet, because of the copyright, there's a difference in opinion wether it is DFSG compliant or not17:09
AnAntpython-hijri is on the PPA though17:09
AnAntI just looked at POSIX 2008 standard yesterday17:09
dholbachright... I was just asking because I know that bugs for this in glib and glibc have been open for years17:10
AnAntI still don't find any support for non-solar-based calendars17:10
dholbachAnAnt: you could ask for a review by the archive admins to find out if it's suitable for inclusion in Ubuntu17:10
dholbachit sounds like it would solve a bunch of problems17:10
AnAntdholbach: really ? please give me links to those bugs17:10
* soren is around now as well, after kicking his X server around a bit :(17:10
AnAntbut I still think that this should better be in glibc not in some libraries17:11
dholbachAnAnt: I'll try to find them17:11
AnAntfor example I use mutt17:11
AnAntam I going to make mutt use libitl0 to support hijri17:11
AnAntif we do this for every app that would be just too much !17:11
dholbachsoren, geser, jpds: more questions?17:12
sorenNo, I was going to ask about the calendar thing as well :)17:12
dholbachAnAnt: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=344005 (glib)17:12
AnAntdholbach: thanks17:12
ubottuError: Could not parse XML returned by Gnome: timed out (http://bugzilla.gnome.org/xml.cgi?id=344005)17:12
jpdsNone from me.17:12
dholbachsoren: any more questions from you?17:13
dholbach[vote] Shall Ahmed El-Mahmoudy become Contributing Developer?17:13
MootBotPlease vote on:  Shall Ahmed El-Mahmoudy become Contributing Developer?.17:13
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot17:13
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting17:13
MootBot+1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 117:14
MootBot+1 received from soren. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 217:14
MootBot+1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 317:14
dholbachjpds: the suspense is killing us17:15
dholbachI'm sure it's something about broken X servers again17:15
AnAntKMS stuff17:15
dholbachI don't know - it all works for me :)17:15
AnAntok, till he comes back, where can I ask about glib ? I never knew glib has to do with calendar stuff17:16
MootBot+1 received from jpds. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 417:19
dholbachAnAnt: I think it makes sense in glib, but probably would even make more sense further down the stack, to make timestamps and dates work in various calendars17:19
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 417:19
dholbachcongratulations AnAnt!17:19
AnAntthanks guys17:19
dholbachAnAnt: but I'm no expert when it comes to calendars and stuff - I just stumbled over the bug :)17:19
dholbachAnAnt: well done17:20
dholbachgeser, jpds, soren: shall we go on and see who of our applicants is here?17:20
jpdsCongrats AnAnt.17:20
jpdsAmpelbein: Are you around?17:21
AnAntjpds: thanks17:21
geserdholbach: sure, instead of idling for 39 minutes, we can also ask question to the next applicants :)17:21
dholbach[TOPIC] MOTU Application: Andreas Moog17:21
=== Claudinux is now known as Claudinux_One
MootBotNew Topic:  MOTU Application: Andreas Moog17:21
dholbach[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreasMoog/MOTUApplication17:21
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreasMoog/MOTUApplication17:21
dholbachAmpelbein: how are you doing?17:21
=== Claudinux_One is now known as Claudinux
dholbachoops, sorry - I thought he replied17:23
dholbachttx: around?17:23
ttxdholbach: yes17:23
dholbach[TOPIC] Core-Dev Application: Thierry Carrez17:23
MootBotNew Topic:  Core-Dev Application: Thierry Carrez17:23
dholbach[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThierryCarrez/CoreDevApplication17:23
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThierryCarrez/CoreDevApplication17:23
dholbachttx: how's life in France?17:24
ttxIt's nice and sunny. I've a baby screaming on my lap so my answers might get delayed sometimes17:24
ttxwas kinda expecting the meeting at 1700utc17:24
dholbachttx: AnAnt couldn't make it later on17:25
ttxI should be ok :)17:25
dholbachttx: the most pressing question I have is the following:17:25
dholbachMathias Gug said you should eat more cheese, what are your plans with that?17:25
ttxdholbach: well, its a kind of phobia. But I can work around it with cooked cheese17:26
ttxas long as it's not really raw. So I expect improvements in this area for the next cycles17:26
dholbachttx: how has your experience with Java packaging and integration changed in the last time?17:27
ttxdholbach: I would say I encounter two types of actions now. One is packaging missing packages... the other is wide changes to the state of Java library packages in general17:28
ttxJava packages don't get updated a lot so there are lots of old deps that need to be cleaned out17:28
ttxotherwise you get unwanted dependencies, that sort of things17:29
ttxso I look forward using core-dev powers to extend my reach to main Java library packages.17:29
dholbachttx: do you think we're in a better position nowadays (with a few people working on it and having skills and knowledge) to train new people to start working on them?17:29
dholbachI'm asking because you said you'd like to do more mentoring and sponsoring :-)))17:30
ttxdholbach: yes. And we'll restart the Java team meetings very shortly to try to build a new momentum around that17:30
geserttx: what's your impression about the current status of the several java packages in the archive?17:30
dholbachthat makes me happy17:30
ttxdholbach: same space, next week, 0900UTC17:31
ttxgeser: I'm currently working on cleaning up  lots of them, as part of eucalyptus-in-main and eucalyptus-on-cd blueprints17:32
ttxgeser: so I'd say not that good, but improving.17:32
ttxgeser: main problem at that point is hard dependency on a non-headless JRE17:32
ttxwhich pulls full JDKs on otherwise server-only installs.17:32
ttxI covered like 20 of them recently... more coming :)17:33
sorenttx: I remember there were a lot of things up in the air about how to deal with java packages some months ago. Is there a grand plan for dealing with embedded jar's and API incompatibility and all that jazz going forward?17:33
sorenttx: Example:17:33
ttxsoren: not really. We are still at a point where if more software is added, there is a risk that the stack underneath will not support all software17:34
sorenSay there turns out to be a bug in a java library, like Bouncycastle. Is everything in the archive that uses bouncycastle already using a separately packaged Bouncycastle?17:34
ttxthere are workarounds, but the best is to convince upstream projects to have a saner approach to depends17:35
ttxsoren: they should. there are a few black sheeps, but I'm tracking them through my java-Contents files, which allow to spot code duplication in java packages17:35
ttxI hope we can set up something more formal within the java team in the near future17:36
sorenCool. So we have an overview of packages that need to be fixed up in case there's a security problem?17:36
ttxYes. Just grep for the affected class and the thing should tell you where it was unduly packaged17:36
sorenAh, neat. I didn't know.17:37
dholbachsoren, jpds, geser: more questions?17:37
geserttx: have you any ideas how to resolve this self-build-depending of some java packages?17:38
geserI remember fighting with jboss and now maven-plugin-tools :(17:38
ttxgeser: I hit that issue with a Eucalyptus dependency. The "solution" was to push it to multiverse first and have it build from source + JAR (like Java projects like to do)17:39
ttxthen upgrade it to build-depend on itself17:39
ttxthen move to universe once it is properly bootstrapped17:39
dholbachttx: does that info live in JavaTeam/FAQ or something? :)17:40
ttxIt's still dirty, but it was the least dirty way I could find.17:40
ttxdholbach: you got me. Not yet :)17:40
dholbachI just thought "that's something that probably more than one person wondered already..." .-)17:41
* dholbach is done with questions17:41
geserI've was about to repeat the cup stunt (include the debian deb uuencoded in the .diff.gz for bootstrapping) but got stopped by an other build-dependency17:41
* soren has no more questions17:41
* geser neither17:41
dholbachgeser: wow17:41
jpdsNone from me.17:42
dholbach[vote] Shall we recommend Thierry Carrez for Ubuntu Core Developer?17:42
MootBotPlease vote on:  Shall we recommend Thierry Carrez for Ubuntu Core Developer?.17:42
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot17:42
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting17:42
MootBot+1 received from jpds. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 117:42
MootBot+1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 217:42
MootBot+1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 317:42
sorenWorth a try.17:42
MootBot+1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 417:42
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 417:42
dholbachwell done, ttx17:42
ttx\o/ thanks everyone :)17:43
dholbachsoren: I think that feature is only implemented for sabdfl :)17:43
dholbachgaspa: around? :)17:43
gaspadholbach: here I am.17:43
dholbach[TOPIC] MOTU Application: Andrea Gasparini17:43
MootBotNew Topic:  MOTU Application: Andrea Gasparini17:43
dholbach[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gaspa2/MotuApplication17:43
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gaspa2/MotuApplication17:43
dholbachgaspa: how are you doing?17:43
gaspaquite tired. :P I've a little child that doesn't let me sleep too much :p17:44
jpdsvideo survaillance? Interesting...17:44
gaspajpds: of course :) i actually like what I'm doing.17:45
dholbachgaspa: who were the people you worked mostly with in the ubuntu developer community ... that were not Italian? :-)17:45
gaspawell, it depends...17:45
dholbachlooks like the whole Ubuntu Italian developer mafia^Wgroup replied to your application :-)17:45
gaspaI started working with pitti, for usplash, but that was some time ago.17:46
* warp10 chuckles17:46
gaspaabout bug fixing, I didn't had contacts with any one in particular...17:46
gaspasimply asking for sponsoring...17:47
dholbachjpds, soren, geser: questions?17:47
jpdsDo you currently work with the QA team?17:47
gaspajpds: i'm countinuosly work for QA.17:48
gaspathe thing I like most is writing script to find subtle bugs. :P17:48
jpdsOh, within the -it team? I was think more #ubuntu-testing :(17:49
dholbachgaspa: do you think there's lessons the other parts of the community can learn from the Italian community? there's lots and lots and lots of you guys :-)17:49
gaspathere's  ever a lot of new people in the -it channel...17:50
gaspaand we're simply trying to 'catch' them up :P17:50
dholbachwe should have a separate discussion about that :)17:51
gaspasome times ago we tried an -it bug day, but it doesn't ends with much people. :P17:51
gaspadholbach: sure :)17:51
jpdsHave you ever run a local bug/packaging jam in your area?17:51
gaspajpds: http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoSviluppo/BugDay17:52
jpdsOh, nice work.17:52
gaspaonly one, with only me, dktrantz, and other two/three contributor...17:52
dholbachgaspa: you said you're interested in training new motu.... do you think there's anything generally missing?17:52
gaspabut that's only the first :P17:53
gaspadholbach: oh, well, we lack of mentors, it seems.17:53
dholbachgaspa: who mentored you... when you started?17:53
gaspadholbach: I hadn't any mentor.17:54
AnAntwhat a coincidence , 3 of us got babies17:54
gaspaAnAnt: :D LOL17:54
gaspadholbach: I asked one a month ago, but without response.17:54
geserpreparing the next generation of Ubuntu developers?17:54
* gaspa hoping17:54
dholbachgaspa: I know... it's a tough one... we're not big enough for one-to-one mentoring17:55
dholbachgaspa: but generally you feel we're on the right track?17:55
gaspadholbach: oh, I appreciated a lot the split in junior/senior mentoring,17:55
gaspaperhaps do we need more people on -reception?17:56
gaspadon't know, just guessing17:56
dholbachno more questions from me17:56
dholbachjpds, geser, soren: ^17:56
geserno questions17:57
Ampelbeinhi. sorry i'm late. i think i confused utc again17:59
geserAmpelbein: no, we just started an hour earlier18:00
Ampelbeinah, ok. well, i guess this meeting is over?18:01
dholbachAmpelbein: no, we're waiting for soren to ask gaspa a question18:01
geserAmpelbein: no worry, your application will be processed18:02
Ampelbeinok, i'm here18:03
geserdholbach is hopefully currently looking for soren so we can finish gaspa's application18:04
gaspageser: around berlin? :P18:04
dholbachgaspa: sure... from Berlin to Denmark it's not that far ;-)18:05
gaspadholbach: wow, you're so fast :D18:05
dholbachhum... I have no idea what happened to soren18:06
dholbachnixternal does not seem to be around yet18:07
dholbachand persia hopefully went to bed18:07
geserdholbach: should we start with questioning Ampelbein till soren comes back?18:08
dholbachmaybe not a bad idea18:08
dholbachgaspa: we'll get back to you in a bit18:08
gaspano probs.18:08
dholbach[TOPIC] MOTU Application: Andreas Moog18:09
MootBotNew Topic:  MOTU Application: Andreas Moog18:09
dholbach[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreasMoog/MOTUApplication18:09
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreasMoog/MOTUApplication18:09
dholbachhey Ampelbein... sorry for the confusion - how are you doing?18:09
Ampelbeindholbach: i'm fine, thanks18:09
Ampelbeindholbach: little nervous though18:10
dholbachAmpelbein: don't worry :)18:10
dholbachAmpelbein: you said that there's heaps of bugs in older versions of Ubuntu... what has your experience been trying to get them fixed (be it through -updates or -backports)?18:10
Ampelbeindholbach: there were 2 SRU i managed to get into proposed/updates.18:11
dholbachAmpelbein: was it a lot of work? were you happy with how it all went?18:12
Ampelbeindholbach: but there was no successful backport, mostly because i did not have enough drive to do it.18:12
dholbachis it a lot of work to go through that process?18:13
jpdsHow do you feel PPA have affected backports?18:14
Ampelbeindholbach: the biggest problem was to find the one fix for the issue and get it done.18:14
dholbachAmpelbein: ah ok, I see18:14
Ampelbeindholbach: its a lot documentation, but i don't think its unneccessary work. we must ensure that the stable releases are good at all times18:15
Ampelbeinjpds: in a negative way. more fixes are just uploaded to ppa but no one bothers to do a SRU/backport18:16
geserAmpelbein: as you mentioned that there a many unfixed bugs in the released ubuntu version, so we should do more SRUs? on the other hand I've read "complains" that Ubuntu does to many updates. Any idea how we can serve both sides?18:16
Ampelbeinjpds: which is not bad in itself, when the ppa is used to preliminary test fixes, but the regular process should be undergone also18:16
dholbachAmpelbein: what would you say is your biggest interest going to be in the next months? desktop?18:17
Ampelbeingeser: no idea atm. i don't think having many updates is bad, those who don't want them can just disable -updates/backports and rely on security alone18:18
Ampelbeindholbach: yeah, desktop and some python related stuff. but no particular package18:19
Ampelbeinwhen there is nothing else to do, i will do some sponsoring/regular bug fixing.18:20
dholbachthat sounds good to me :)18:21
dholbach"sponsoring" is music to my ears :)18:21
geserAmpelbein: there is never a "nothing else to do"18:22
Ampelbeinbut i must be careful. i tend to overlook some packaging flaws (mainly the LP:XXXX-thing)18:22
dholbachAmpelbein: what was your experience with working with debian?18:23
Ampelbeindholbach: good, i sent patches there and some were accepted.18:23
Ampelbeindholbach: some were not, i never received an response and have not asked again in the bug report18:24
Ampelbeinfor example the nzb-package had a remaining diff over debian, i sent it there and it got accepted -> sync18:24
* soren is here now. 18:25
dholbachI hope we can make the sponsoring work so well that we don't keep people hanging there :)18:25
sorenSorry, the real world demanded my attention.18:25
dholbachI don't have any more questions for Ampelbein18:25
dholbachhow about you geser and jpds, while soren catches up18:25
Ampelbeingeser: yeah, i imagine that (nothing else to do happens quite rarely)18:26
jpdsAmpelbein: Do you plan to start working with the backporters team at some point maybe?18:26
Ampelbeinjpds: i honestly don't know yet. i don't want to start working on everything and then realising i dont make things right.18:27
Ampelbeinjpds: i'd rather go one step for another.18:27
jpdsGood plan :)18:27
sorenNo more questions for gaspa.18:27
* soren catches up, slowly.18:27
geserAmpelbein: you mentioned earlier that people tend to upload a fix to their PPA and don't bother to do a SRU/backport. Is there a flaw in our processes that makes a SRU/backport too unattractive/hard?18:28
Ampelbeingeser: i don't think it's something we can change. we should encourage users to do sru/backport. but most stop at the "works for me" point18:29
Ampelbeingeser: maybe there should be an easy interface to request a sru from a ppa.18:30
Ampelbeingeser: like bugzillas have their bug filing interface, we should have something similar for backports/srus18:30
Ampelbeinof course that would mean to spend more time on those, as i can imagine the number of requests grows large18:31
dholbachgeser, soren, jpds: any more questions for Ampelbein?18:31
sorenNope, I'm fine.18:32
dholbach[vote] Shall Andreas Moog become a MOTU?18:32
MootBotPlease vote on:  Shall Andreas Moog become a MOTU?.18:32
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot18:32
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting18:32
MootBot+1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 118:32
MootBot+1 received from jpds. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 218:32
MootBot+1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 318:32
MootBot+1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 418:32
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 418:32
dholbachcongratulations Ampelbein!18:33
jpdsWell done Ampelbein!18:33
dholbach[vote] Shall Andrea Gasparini become a MOTU?18:33
MootBotPlease vote on:  Shall Andrea Gasparini become a MOTU?.18:33
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot18:33
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting18:33
MootBot+1 received from soren. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 118:33
MootBot+1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 218:33
MootBot+1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 318:33
MootBot+1 received from jpds. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 418:33
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 418:33
Ampelbeinthank you all very much!18:33
dholbachcongratulations gaspa!18:33
dholbachYEEEHAW! :-)18:33
gaspaAmpelbein: congratulations . :)18:33
Ampelbeingaspa: yeah, congrats!18:33
gaspathanks all! :D18:33
warp10gaspa, Ampelbein : rock on! :D18:33
Ampelbeinwarp10: will do! ;-)18:34
dholbach[TOPIC] Any other business?18:34
MootBotNew Topic:  Any other business?18:34
dholbachjpds, geser, soren: anybody of you up for doing the honours?18:34
dholbachif nobody does, I'd do it in the morning18:34
dholbachI really need to head out in a bit18:35
* soren has a foot out the door (literally)18:35
dholbachI guess that means that I do it in the morning... :-)18:35
dholbachok... thanks a lot everybody18:35
MootBotMeeting finished at 12:35.18:35
* warp10 and the other picciotti of the Italian Developers Mafia Group get back to the famiglia with a bottle of prosecco. Everyone's invited to the party, this is an offer you can't refuse...18:35
dholbachthanks again everybody18:36
dholbachwarp10:  :-)))18:36
warp10dholbach: ;)18:36
dholbachgaspa, AnAnt, Ampelbein, ttx: I promise, I do it real early tomorrow :)18:36
gaspa \o/18:37
dholbachrock on everybody18:37
=== ShadowChild is now known as lukjad007
=== nxvl_ is now known as nxvl
* lool appears21:55
mhall119|workdo it again21:57
=== ogra__ is now known as ogra_
MootBotMeeting started at 16:00. The chair is NCommander.22:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]22:00
NCommander[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap22:00
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap22:00
NCommander[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/2009062522:00
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/2009062522:00
ogra_sigh, NCommander are you sure there is no piece of german in you_22:00
NCommander[link] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~canonical-mobile?show=all22:01
MootBotLINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~canonical-mobile?show=all22:01
ogra_#startmeeing at the moment where my clock flips 22:59 to 23:00 ...22:01
NCommanderogra_, :-)22:01
* ogra_ heard lool wants to replace the roadmap with something cooler22:02
NCommanderWho's here?22:02
* StevenK isn't22:02
* ogra_ pretends to be22:02
* plars has melted into a puddle of mush due to extreme heat22:02
* GrueMaster is not.22:02
* NCommander puts plars in the freezer22:03
* ajmitch lurks & watches22:03
* NCommander blinks22:03
loologra_: it's done!22:04
NCommanderThere we go22:04
NCommanderdavidm won't be here22:04
ogra_right, post the link :)22:04
NCommanderogra_, I did22:04
* ogra_ is to distracted by other channels :P22:05
* NCommander is too22:05
NCommander[topic] Action Item Review22:05
MootBotNew Topic:  Action Item Review22:05
NCommander[topic] ogra to investigate pm-dashboard (co)22:05
MootBotNew Topic:  ogra to investigate pm-dashboard (co)22:05
loologra_: It's the same wiki page but the list of specs is from blueprints.lp.net instead of duplicated?22:05
loologra_: So we don't have to maintain both22:05
looland it's always up-to-date22:06
loolJust keep your spec up-to-date basically :)22:06
ogra_lool, we have other stuff on the roadmap page22:06
NCommanderogra, the rest of its there22:06
loologra_: that's still there22:06
ogra_like specs of other teams we care about and bugs22:06
loologra_: Why don't you just *read* the current Roadmap page?   :-)22:06
NCommanderogra, so, pm-dashboard ...22:06
ogra_i spent my day with it22:07
ogra_saldy it doesnt fit our requirements22:07
ogra_i filed bug 39209822:07
ubottuLaunchpad bug 392098 in pm-dashboard "please add option to filter by tags" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/39209822:07
ogra_and bug 39209422:07
ubottuLaunchpad bug 392094 in pm-dashboard "needs search option for bugs a team is subscribed to" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/39209422:07
ogra_(there are other usability issues i didnt file yet, these two are critical for us to use the dashboard)22:08
NCommanderCool, ogra, why don't you add those to a wishlist section of the roadmap so we can track it22:08
ogra_good idea !22:08
NCommander[topic] NCommander to investigate https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vnc4/+bug/338148 (co)22:08
MootBotNew Topic:  NCommander to investigate https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vnc4/+bug/338148 (co)22:08
ubottuUbuntu bug 338148 in vnc4 "Needs new version from Debian: fails to build with removal of mesa-swx11-source" [High,Triaged]22:08
NCommanderc/o. Might get to this if I clone myself in the near future.22:08
NCommander[topic] GrueMaster to retest on i386 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/33780922:09
MootBotNew Topic:  GrueMaster to retest on i386 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/33780922:09
ubottuUbuntu bug 337809 in linux "APIC error on CPU 0" [Medium,Triaged]22:09
NCommander[topic] NCommander to investigate thunderbird segfaults on ARM (https://launchpad.net/bugs/340595)22:09
MootBotNew Topic:  NCommander to investigate thunderbird segfaults on ARM (https://launchpad.net/bugs/340595)22:09
ubottuUbuntu bug 340595 in thunderbird "thunderbird-bin failed to start: burned lots of CPU crashed with SIGSEGV (dup-of: 385325)" [Undecided,Invalid]22:09
ubottuUbuntu bug 385325 in thunderbird "[armel] thunderbird-bin crashed with SIGSEGVI" [Medium,Confirmed]22:09
NCommanderHad a breakthrough with heavy assistance with asac, lool, fta, and a bunch of other people22:09
NCommanderIts fix committed now in karmic22:09
NCommanderWe're pending a test build22:10
NCommanderIf anyone got an ARM karmic system beside me and feels like helping, shoot me a ping, I'd like to get one other person to test this before we shove it int he archive22:10
NCommander[topic] GrueMaster to ask StevenK to review mobile-unr-karmic-applications spec22:10
MootBotNew Topic:  GrueMaster to ask StevenK to review mobile-unr-karmic-applications spec22:10
GrueMastermoot at this point.22:11
loolNCommander: Well done on the TB stuff22:11
NCommanderlool, you were a major help on that entire project. :-). asac going to handle putting it into karmic so while I think we need to keep tracking this, I think we're more or less done here22:11
NCommander[topic] ogra to get clarification on the 2D UNR spec22:12
MootBotNew Topic:  ogra to get clarification on the 2D UNR spec22:12
loolNCommander: asac does the jaunty backport as well?  nice22:12
NCommanderlool, well, he wants to upstream it, then put into jaunty-security ...22:12
* ogra_ applauds NCommander 22:12
loolOh ehehe22:12
loolvia upstream, that's nice22:13
NCommanderlool, it helps when asac has upstream commit rights22:13
ogra_NCommander, now earn your rupert and get us mono-debugger22:13
NCommander[action] NCommander to investigate mono-debugger on ARM22:13
MootBotACTION received:  NCommander to investigate mono-debugger on ARM22:13
* ogra_ hugs NCommander 22:13
NCommander[topic] unr-karmic-accessibility to be reviewed and assigned22:13
MootBotNew Topic:  unr-karmic-accessibility to be reviewed and assigned22:13
ogra_[action] NCommander find out what a rupert is :)22:14
NCommanderogra, that only works for me ;-)22:14
NCommander(try [idea])22:14
ogra_i know22:14
ogra_nah, i dont want to log it22:14
NCommanderso who put this action item down last week22:14
NCommanderoh wait22:14
NCommanderI didn't paste it22:14
NCommander[topic] unr-karmic-accessibility to be reviewed and assigned22:14
MootBotNew Topic:  unr-karmic-accessibility to be reviewed and assigned22:14
* NCommander looks around22:15
plarsI think we concluded that unr-karmic-accessibility work would likely come from the dx team22:15
NCommanderok c/o22:15
NCommandercool, then I don't need to care22:15
NCommander[topic] ogra to get clarification on the 2D UNR spec22:15
MootBotNew Topic:  ogra to get clarification on the 2D UNR spec22:15
plarsthat's not to say that they have officially agreed to it, at least not that I know of22:16
ogra_lool assigned it to bfiller today22:16
ogra_so its done22:16
NCommanderOSG works fast22:16
ogra_apart from that there is a prototype22:16
ogra_very cool thing22:16
NCommander[topic] NCommander to confirm list of specs to be in Review and Approved and have davidm set LP status accordingly22:16
MootBotNew Topic:  NCommander to confirm list of specs to be in Review and Approved and have davidm set LP status accordingly22:16
NCommanderI think I got everything22:16
NCommanderIf you see a spec that isn't set right, bug davidm22:16
StevenK-translations ?22:17
loolThe two informational one seem bogus, see the Roadmap section22:17
NCommanderStevenK, that one is a special case I think22:17
lool"Specifications which might be informational and need to be sorted out"22:17
StevenKNCommander: It is?22:17
NCommanderStevenK, I heard that it isn't ours, but I might be misremembering22:17
NCommanderDoes someone want to take this?22:17
loolI think we want to clarify these22:18
loolStevenK: You were assigned as drafter22:18
loolStevenK: Can you clarify what's happening with them?22:18
NCommander[action] StevenK to clarify informational specs and -translations22:18
MootBotACTION received:  StevenK to clarify informational specs and -translations22:18
StevenKWhy informational?22:18
ogra_they were in the list of the ones SteveA wanted to get rid of iirc22:18
StevenKI was just about to say I'm not 100% clear on -translations, and would like some help22:19
ogra_pitti might be good for that one22:19
ogra_he wrote a lot of the code to get translations going in ubuntu22:19
StevenKI think pitti has enough specs to write, I just want someone to draft it22:19
ogra_ah, i thought more for assistance22:20
loolStevenK: What about kyleN?22:20
StevenKOnce I know what to do, I can get it done, it's figuring out what to do22:20
StevenKlool: I can prod him harder22:20
loolStevenK: Was the consensus to do translations in Ubuntu?22:20
loolISTR it was, but please confirm22:21
ogra_it wshould22:21
StevenKI think it was to do them "upstream"22:21
ogra_so we get LP love22:21
loolStevenK: Really?22:21
StevenKEr, in the upstream projects22:21
StevenKlool: Lets deal with this offline out of the meeting22:21
loolStevenK: Ack22:21
loolStevenK: What about the other one?22:22
NCommander[action] StevenK and lool to collobrate on -translations and to report back next week22:22
MootBotACTION received:  StevenK and lool to collobrate on -translations and to report back next week22:22
StevenKWhich other spec?22:22
StevenKIt's 7:20, I've not had tea, and Firefox doesn't love me22:22
loolStevenK: The one I pinged about earlier while you were sleeping!!  :)22:22
loolpaulliu: I think it's yours22:22
loolpaulliu: I think we discussed it shortly; is it something davidm agreed we should do this cycle?22:22
* GrueMaster wonders who does love StevenK?22:22
loolStevenK: Yup22:23
paulliulool: Not sure. I haven't ask him.22:23
StevenKGrueMaster: Careful ...22:23
ogra_lool, you really need a dream-connector for StevenK :)22:23
loolpaulliu: Could you chekc with him?  I'm pretty sure it's ok22:23
paulliulool: ok.22:23
loolpaulliu: It's just that the spec seemed in limbo22:23
loolpaulliu: Will you take drafting as well?22:23
paulliulool: yes.22:23
loolpaulliu: I'll make you drafter22:23
NCommanderogra_, no, having dreams with your coworkers are bad enough. I think I would flip if I started getting assigned stuff in my dreams22:23
* NCommander already had a TB related nightmare this week22:23
paulliulool: no problem.22:23
loolStevenK: One down for you :)22:23
loolpaulliu: Thanks22:24
ogra_NCommander, just an IRC to dreams portal ;)22:24
ogra_we can use a special channel22:24
loolBack to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~canonical-mobile?show=all22:24
loolI wonder about the two unassigned specs22:24
NCommanderlool, actually, I want to do meeting time first22:24
StevenKIf lool starts giving me work in my dreams, I'm going to seek professional help22:24
NCommanderStevenK, +122:24
loolkarmic-freescale-desktop and karmic-marvell-desktop22:24
loolNCommander: I'm still discussing sorting out specs status?22:25
ogra_and HW enablement :)22:25
NCommanderoh, you are?22:25
loolNCommander: But we can defer to later in the meeting if you prefer22:25
ogra_they are all team assigned22:25
NCommanderlool, no, go for it22:25
StevenKOh, hardware-enablement needs drafting too?22:25
loologra_: These are targetted at karmic22:25
NCommanderWe're going to run over, we have too much to do this meeting, so I"m not super picky ...22:25
loolStevenK: it's approved22:25
ogra_HW enablement isnt ?22:25
StevenKOh it is?22:25
loolBut right, hw enablement needs an assigneed as well22:25
StevenKLike I said, Firefox doesn't love me22:26
loolSo concerning the two desktop specs, we need to split work22:26
NCommanderlool, in which way22:27
loolI was also surprized by UNR/FSL ending on dyfet's plate as he doesn't have B2, but since we have no 2D UNR nor OpenGL drivers, it's not an issue right now22:27
ogra_well, they are closely hardware bound22:27
loolNCommander: We need to have people implement FSL desktop and Marvell desktop22:27
dyfetI was surprised too ;)22:27
NCommanderlool, well yes, but I think we can break that into mini-specs22:28
loolI think it's a collection of small things; for FSL it's probably just an update on what we have, and for Marvell it's a new image with uboot and all22:28
NCommanderOr tasks22:28
NCommanderand then individually assign those22:28
* ogra_ hast read the specs, does it need special seeds ?22:28
StevenKI think that one will require physical hardware access22:28
NCommander(and then have one lead person to report progress)22:28
loolNCommander: Each spec can be broken down in work items, yes, but we need a responsible person for each22:28
loolNCommander: exactly22:28
loolI'm looking for such persons   :-)22:28
StevenKI'm happy to be the RP for UNR/FSL22:28
ogra_RP ?22:28
StevenKOh dear god, did I just say that22:28
NCommanderlool, that's asking a lot22:28
loolStevenK: Hmm this is not exactly the ones we were discussing, but we could discuss that22:29
loolLet me recap22:29
NCommanderI can take Marvell or FSL desktop22:29
StevenKRP == Responisble Person, it's a DNS thing22:29
loolWe have desktop FSL, desktop marvell, UNR marvell, UNR FSL, hardware enablement22:29
ogra_to long ago22:29
loolThe UNR ones are irrelevant as long as we don't have OpenGL drivers OR a 2D UNR launcher, so no hurry22:29
loolCurrently these are assigned to dyfet22:29
StevenKRight, okay22:29
loolStevenK: i'm happy if you help dyfet with UNR stuff though22:30
NCommanderI think we can leave both UNR ones assigned to canonical-mobile22:30
loolThen, we have the two desktop ones22:30
NCommander(as it stands in LP, both are dependent on their desktop specs)22:30
loolNCommander: The UNR ones are /already/ assigned22:30
ogra_which is the default22:30
StevenKI think dyfet would be happy, too22:30
loolNCommander: And don't need to move to canonical-mobile22:30
loolHmm ok22:30
ogra_i dont expect much apart from fixing remaining jaunty bugs for FSL22:30
dyfetStevenK: yes :)22:30
loolActually you folks are correct, no need to assign them to dyfet now22:30
NCommanderJust for sanity sake22:31
ogra_(new kernel and redboot aside here indeed)22:31
NCommanderWHo currently has TO2 hardware, and who is getting Marvell hardware?22:31
* ogra_ raises hands for both22:31
loolI removed assignees for these two22:31
* NCommander raises hand for both (and two B1s that work, and another thats a brick)22:31
ogra_but marvell should be lead by someone else22:32
dyfetNCommander: I am on the Marvell "list"...22:32
GrueMasterAccording to davidm_'s email earlier, we should al be getting marvel boards "soon".22:32
ogra_i'm fine keeping babbage22:32
loolNow there's hw enablement, and the two desktop ones22:32
NCommanderTHat's fine22:32
NCommanderthen I'll take Marvell22:32
ogra_and help with marvell22:32
NCommanderand help with FSL22:32
NCommanderlool, is that fine by you?22:32
loolNCommander: marvell desktop?  that's ok with me22:32
ogra_lool, i think they go hand in hand for each HW22:32
NCommander[action] ogra to lead freescale-desktop specification and projection implementation22:32
MootBotACTION received:  ogra to lead freescale-desktop specification and projection implementation22:32
ogra_(the desktop ones)22:32
loolNCommander: Actually there are two things22:32
loolNCommander: One is FSL needs B2 hardware22:33
looland cdimage capability (as discussed earlier)22:33
loolthe other is that Marvell needs Marvell hardware and cdimage capability22:33
StevenKWhy cdimage?22:33
NCommanderStevenK, we need subarchitectures22:33
ogra_for adding the image specific stuff22:33
loolStevenK: Because we need to write cdimage scripts to output images22:33
NCommanderStevenK, we fudged it and make imx51 the only armel image22:33
loolThat's most of the work actually22:33
NCommanderStevenK, to avoid another ps3 hack22:34
StevenKI'll just say 'ewww'22:34
NCommanderStevenK, well put22:34
loolSo either we keep NCommander as assignee, and he asks for help, or we put cdimage folks as assignees and they ask NCommander for help22:34
StevenKI like the former22:34
NCommanderlool, I have cdimage setup, so I can work on that22:34
NCommanderlool, someone from cdimage will have to do the merge to antiomony22:35
loolNCommander: The cdimage cdimage is a bit different from the public cdimage22:35
NCommanderlool, that's not what I was told.22:35
ogra_and needs review usually from slangasek or cjwatson22:35
NCommanderOk ...22:35
StevenKHysterical raisins22:35
* NCommander looks at StevenK 22:35
loolNCommander: But there are other tasks: packaging of uboot, kernel + image testing etc.22:35
loolNCommander: So you're tacking marvell desktop?22:35
NCommanderYeah, I'll take it22:35
loolNext is FSL desktop22:36
NCommander[action] NCommander to lead marvell-desktop specification and project implementation22:36
MootBotACTION received:  NCommander to lead marvell-desktop specification and project implementation22:36
loolIt's relatively easy, but it needs splitting out FSL stuff of armel into armel+imx5122:36
loolThen updates to redboot + kernel22:36
ogra_lool, as i said before i thing HW enablement, image building and basic desktop are one task22:36
ogra_so i'm fine to take that22:36
loologra_: hw enablement covers a shitload of netbooks22:36
ogra_HW enablement for FSL i meant :)22:37
loologra_: Are you talking of the hw enablement spec or just of the FSL spec?22:37
loolI think it's an easy one yeah22:37
loolOk, I'll assign to you22:37
loolFinal one is hw enablement for QA22:37
NCommanderI already have that action item for ogra22:37
StevenKSounds like plars22:37
* StevenK hides22:37
loolI think I'd like someone from QA to pick that up   :-)22:37
plarslool: what's that?22:37
ogra_your task :P22:38
loolplars: The hwenablement spec22:38
plarsah, I haven't looked at that one yet22:38
loolneeds an assignee to drive it; looks like it would be nice to have someone from QA pick it up22:38
loolor GrueMaster perhaps?22:38
* GrueMaster hides22:38
GrueMasterWhat would I need to do?22:39
ogra_work ?22:39
plarsactually, is this for the certification stuff?22:39
GrueMasterogra_ Pfft!22:39
plarsif so, that portion of it might already be covered by another blueprint22:39
loolplars, GrueMaster: it still needs implementation + design drafting at least22:39
GrueMasterI think I saw something on this earlier.22:40
loolBasically, one responsability of the mobile team is to make sure these netbooks work22:40
GrueMasterI only have one netbook.  This is something the QA team should look at as they have a bunch in MA.22:40
GrueMasterAnd it was discussed in UDS.22:40
plarslool: but is that with the assumption that it's going to go into the lab for official certification? or that it's going to be tested in cycle by this team?22:41
loolSo if someone would be to drive this, I'd suggest coming up with a good way to ensure stuff works (test plan / test cases / checkbox etc.) and collecting results from people who have the hardware22:41
loolIf something doesn't work, tracking bugs and progress on the resolution22:41
loolFinally, outputting release notes covering the actual level of support22:41
GrueMasterLike I said, the QA team already has a process for this in place I believe.22:41
plarslool: ok, give it to me then I guess, and we can hash out the details later... sounds like it shares a lot withe the mobile karmic qa UNR one that I already have22:42
loolplars: I know nothing more than you do, I wasn't at the discussion (you were I think?), it's just my guesses22:42
loolplars: Okay22:42
loolStevenK: You're drafter on that one22:42
StevenKDo I have to be? :-)22:42
loolStevenK: Will you complete drafting, or perhaps you can discuss this with plars out of band?22:43
StevenKYeah, I'll talk to plars into it^W^Wabout it22:43
NCommanderStevenK, you really need to fix your terminal settings22:43
loolOk; I think that's all I had on blueprints triage; unless someone sees any other issue?22:43
plarsbribery will get you everywhere22:43
plarshttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting doesn't seem to show up on the current list22:44
loolplars: It wasn't on the Roadmap wiki page22:44
plarslool: yeah, it just got thrown at me yesterday22:45
loolplars: It should appear now22:45
plarslool: ah, I see it now... it wasn't there a few min ago when I checked22:45
NCommanderso is that everything on specification assignments?22:45
loolplars: So you'll draft and implement that?22:45
NCommander[action] plars to draft and implement mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting22:46
loolplars: It appeared because I sub-ed canonical-mobile to the spec just seconds ago22:46
MootBotACTION received:  plars to draft and implement mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting22:46
loolplars: I've assigned you to the spec as well; let me know offline if that's incorrect22:46
ogra_13mins ...22:47
NCommander[topic] Meeting Time Discussion22:47
MootBotNew Topic:  Meeting Time Discussion22:47
loolplars: as I was saying I've assigned you to the spec as well; let me know offline if that's incorrect22:47
GrueMasterI kind of like it where it is.22:47
NCommanderIf you have an idea, please use [idea] to submit it, we'll individually vote on each one22:47
NCommanderEach member can vote multiple times on each timeslot22:48
plarsyeesh, just got dumped... it's drafted, needs review if someone is up for it22:48
NCommanderThe one with the most votes wins22:48
* ogra_ agrees with GrueMaster 22:48
NCommanderIn case of tie, it goes to David to decide22:48
GrueMaster[idea] current time works.22:48
MootBotIDEA received:  current time works.22:48
NCommander[idea] current time22:48
MootBotIDEA received:  current time22:48
NCommandergruemaster beat me to it22:48
ogra_[ides] agreeing on current time22:48
ogra_[idea] agreeing on current time22:48
MootBotIDEA received:  agreeing on current time22:48
NCommanderogra, no, I'll do a vote on it :-)22:48
loolI don't mind the current time22:48
loolExcept it conflicts with a moving meeting on Fridays22:48
StevenK[idea] current time, peer pressure22:49
MootBotIDEA received:  current time, peer pressure22:49
NCommanderWell, do we have any other good candidates?22:49
loolSo I'd like to move the *day* of the IRC meeting22:49
loolto keep at least two days away of that other meeting22:49
NCommanderlool, to Friday?22:49
StevenKI'd like to move the time22:49
NCommanderStevenK, [idea] a time and day22:49
looli'd personally recommend Tuesday for the IRC meeting and Thursday for that other meeting22:49
NCommanderStevenK, it will be consider and reject^W voted22:50
ogra_paulliu, you are suffering from the time as well, dont you ?22:50
* GrueMaster likes to watch StevenK squirm22:50
paulliuogra_, yes a bit.22:50
NCommanderand persia22:50
loolI don't think persia suffers this cycle, we can revisit in karmic + 122:50
lool(for persia)22:50
* StevenK books flights to OR22:50
loolDoes someone object with moving to Tuesday/Thursday?22:50
ogra_well, given that paulliu replaces him, that doesnt mean much22:51
NCommanderStevenK, bring a video camera, I want to watch22:51
ogra_bad time is the same22:51
NCommander[idea] Moving the meeting to Tuesday, same time22:51
MootBotIDEA received:  Moving the meeting to Tuesday, same time22:51
NCommander[idea] Moving the meeting to Thursday, same time22:51
MootBotIDEA received:  Moving the meeting to Thursday, same time22:51
loolI'm fine with that22:51
StevenKTuesday UTC?22:51
paulliuogra, yes, Japan time is only +1 of Taiwan Ttime.22:51
NCommanderso three candidate ideas22:51
lool9pm UTC22:51
ogra_move it earlier for the asian and au people ? or later ?22:52
slangaseklool: anything that you can find the code for in the public cdimage should be committed there first, anyway... :)22:52
StevenKEarlier is bad22:52
StevenK7am is already early enough22:52
NCommanderWait, today is thursday22:52
loolslangasek: I wish :)22:52
loolNCommander: We are thursday22:53
NCommanderlool, yeah, I realize this, but I was thinking we had three different candidates for time22:53
paulliuStevenK: How about one hour later.22:53
paulliuSo it's 6AM for me. Better than 5AM.22:53
StevenKpaulliu: Then it's 1am for ogra_ and lool22:53
NCommanderI think that causes issues for the Europeans22:53
loolI think there's no match for UTC+2 / UTC - 4 / UTC - 5 / UTC - 7 / paulliy22:53
NCommanderI dunno, maybe its easier to move the team to one location22:54
StevenK+2, -4, -5, -7, +8, +1022:54
ogra_1h later is 11pm for me22:54
ogra_not 1am22:54
StevenKmidnight-1am is a bit much, though22:54
loologra_: ends at 1am though22:54
ogra_i could live with that22:54
* plars proposes that all countries eliminate DST and move to UTC22:54
NCommanderplars, +122:54
NCommanderIts a pity, ALaska used to do that, then they brought it back. Its the only flaw in that place :-/22:54
loolWhat about moving it /slightly/22:55
StevenKThen you get, "Why is sunrise at 10pm?"22:55
* GrueMaster votes for Mark buying an island in the south pacific and moving the mobile team there.22:55
NCommander[idea] Moving the meeting ahead one hour to 22:00 UTC22:55
MootBotIDEA received:  Moving the meeting ahead one hour to 22:00 UTC22:55
loole.g. half the time 8pm UTC then 10pm UTC22:55
StevenKThen we can't bai^Wtalk to the Europeans22:56
loolStevenK: We'd attend, we'd just be pained one time out of two22:56
* ogra_ can easily live with a 12pm meeting22:56
loolAnd you would too22:56
loologra_: that's because you don't have the living 7am alarm clock22:56
* NCommander notes that neither dyfet nor myself would be badly affected by that.22:56
ogra_every second week is even better22:56
StevenKOh yuck, two meetings, one at 6am and 8am?22:56
loolStevenK: No, one week 6am the other 8am22:57
dyfetNCommander: true22:57
ogra_lool, alarm clock ?22:57
loolor one month, one month22:57
ogra_whats that ?22:57
loologra_: my son22:57
ogra_i know :)22:57
* NCommander notes his dog used to do that.22:57
StevenKIf we're going to do that, can we at least pick a better time?22:57
loologra_: I'll send him to germany for some time :)22:57
NCommanderStevenK, we could flip it by 12 hours22:57
ogra_feel free, susie would be happy22:57
NCommanderSO us states folks get boned22:57
NCommanderI figure if we're going to bone people, we should be an equal opportunity boner.22:57
loolI'm fine with moving 12 hours22:58
loolOk; 2 minutes left in all timezones22:58
ogra_NCommander, you get all the other privileges alreaday ... like easy travelling22:58
loolI don't see why we should bother with NCommander's schedule anyway  ;-)22:58
NCommanderlool, we have this room until tomorrow mornin22:58
NCommanderlool, I have a schelude?22:59
paulliuOK. I'm ok with same time.22:59
ogra_NCommander, thats the point22:59
NCommander[vote] Keep the meeting where it is22:59
MootBotPlease vote on:  Keep the meeting where it is.22:59
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot22:59
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting22:59
MootBot+1 received from NCommander. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 122:59
MootBot+1 received from plars. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 222:59
MootBot+1 received from GrueMaster. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 322:59
MootBot+1 received from lool. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 422:59
MootBot+1 received from paulliu. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 522:59
NCommanderStevenK, its +022:59
MootBotAbstention received from StevenK. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 522:59
StevenKStupid bot22:59
NCommanderOk, I think that's everyone22:59
loolpaulliu: You should be voting -123:00
NCommanderOr not23:00
MootBotAbstention received from ogra_. 5 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 523:00
GrueMasterlool: can't vote twice.23:00
StevenKWhere abstention == i don't care for it, really23:00
loolGrueMaster: I'd like to change my vote!  :)23:00
ogra_lool, you said +1 before23:00
paulliulool: I'm ok.23:00
NCommanderVote is 4 for, 3 abstain23:00
* NCommander will mentally not it23:00
loolOk; done23:00
GrueMasterYou're not in Florida.  No changing.23:01
MootBotFinal result is 5 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 523:01
loolSorry I'm all caps23:01
plarsI'm fine with tuesday23:01
NCommander[vote] Moving the meeting to Tuesday, same time23:01
MootBotPlease vote on:  Moving the meeting to Tuesday, same time.23:01
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot23:01
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting23:01
MootBot+1 received from lool. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 123:01
MootBot+1 received from plars. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 223:01
GrueMasterTuesday or Thursday makes no diff for me.23:01
MootBotAbstention received from ogra_. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 223:01
MootBotAbstention received from StevenK. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 223:01
MootBot+1 received from paulliu. 3 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 323:01
MootBotAbstention received from GrueMaster. 3 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 323:01
MootBot+1 received from dyfet. 4 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 423:01
loolSounds good23:01
loolOk; done deal23:01
* NCommander isn't sure hot o vote23:01
NCommanderlool, not quite :-)23:01
loolResult is clear23:02
NCommanderIt is?23:02
StevenKUnless NCommander votes -5 ?23:02
loolThe only thing is that we'll probably be having meetings on #ubuntu-mobile as there's a meeting every two weeks23:02
* StevenK smirks23:02
NCommanderI didn't think that would work.23:02
loolNCommander: [endvote]23:02
MootBotAbstention received from NCommander. 4 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 423:02
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 4 abstained. Total: 423:02
loolOk; moving on23:03
NCommanderBoth votes are now tied.23:03
loolNCommander: We can check that offline for the actual IRC channel23:03
NCommander(for keeping, and for moving)23:03
loolWorst case #ubuntu-mobile-meeting23:03
NCommander[vote] Move the meeting time ahead one hour23:03
MootBotPlease vote on:  Move the meeting time ahead one hour.23:03
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot23:03
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting23:03
MootBot+1 received from NCommander. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 123:03
loolNCommander: WTF?23:03
MootBot+1 received from StevenK. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 223:03
NCommanderlool, that was one of the ideas submitted.23:03
MootBot+1 received from dyfet. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 323:03
loolWe agreed to keep the current time?23:04
MootBotAbstention received from paulliu. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 323:04
MootBot-1 received from GrueMaster. 3 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 223:04
loolHow are you going to decide between the two votes?23:04
MootBotAbstention received from plars. 3 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 223:04
NCommanderlool, you can vote on all of the, which ever has the highest amount of votes wins.23:04
loolStevenK: You're voting for one hour ahead??23:04
ogra_hmm, doesnt work23:04
NCommanderlool, in case of tie, davidm chooses23:04
loolThis doesn't make any sense23:04
MootBotFinal result is 3 for, 1 against. 2 abstained. Total: 223:04
StevenKI think that one is defeated23:05
ogra_hmm, doesnt work either23:05
NCommanderlool, well, as it stands, your vote, and the keep the current vote tied.23:05
NCommanderdid we have any more candidates we wanted to vote on?23:05
loolThey are unrelated23:05
loolOne is about the day, the other about the hour23:05
loolWe voted the hour, we voted the day, it's done?23:05
NCommanderlool, no, that one would have been Thursday +1 hour to the time23:05
* GrueMaster agrees with lool23:05
NCommanderI think we're moving the meeting to Tuesday same time or the current time23:05
NCommander(I'll poke davidm about that)23:06
loolYes; let's move on23:06
NCommander[action] NCommander to poke davidm_ on meeting times result23:06
MootBotACTION received:  NCommander to poke davidm_ on meeting times result23:06
NCommander[topic] Specification Review23:06
MootBotNew Topic:  Specification Review23:06
loolWe did that23:06
NCommanderer wait23:06
NCommander[topic] Bug Workflow discussion23:06
MootBotNew Topic:  Bug Workflow discussion23:06
StevenKNo, we didn't?23:06
NCommandersorry, got the wrong one on the todo list23:06
StevenKWe didnt give status of our specs?23:06
ogra_StevenK, in the beginning ... when you didnt have tea yet23:07
NCommander[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/BugWorkflow23:07
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/BugWorkflow23:07
NCommanderogra, we did?23:07
StevenKSure, but we didn't discuss every spec like we did last week23:07
loolplars: I wish Goals would state that we want to a) identify relevant bugs b) track their progress, c) don't miss important bugs etc.23:07
plarslool: ok, noted23:07
ogra_we're already 7min over23:07
lool(I can change it but since it's your work)23:07
NCommanderogra, we have th room until tomorrow ...23:08
loologra_: It doesn't matter, you don't mind midnight meetings :)23:08
plarslool: either way, np... I don't mine others editing, but it deserves group discussion I think23:08
ogra_NCommander, NOT MY LIVING ROOM, NO !23:08
NCommanderogra, I meant #ubuntu-meeting23:08
ogra_lool, indeed :)23:08
loolplars: I think we want to assign to canonical-mobile when it's clearly the responsability of the mobile team to fix, but we don't know whom23:09
loolplars: e.g. other teams might want to do that, and we might want to do that when we don't know yet23:09
plarslool: assign? or subscribe?23:09
NCommanderI think assignment works better23:09
loolplars: assign23:09
StevenKI think we should move the IRC meeting to ogra_'s living room, and meet there every week23:09
NCommanderStevenK, oh great, then my expense reports can be even MORE fun.23:09
ogra_i'll care for the beer23:09
loolplars: We don't want to assign all the time, there are bugs which are important to the mobile team, and bugs which are the responsabiilty of the mobile team to fix23:09
plarswith subscribe, you still get notified.  The potential problem I see with assigned is that for many bug submitters, it has an implied meaning that someone is actively working on it23:09
loolplars: If we want to follow, or someone needs our advice on a bug > subscribe23:10
NCommanderI think one thing we really want is that we don't want to lock out community contribution23:10
loolplars: I think bugs should stay assigned to canonical-mobile too long; it should be a temporary state until we assign one person from the mobile team to it23:10
NCommanderI personally think we should use ubuntu-mobile in place of canonical-mobile unless its something that must be handled by Canonical employees only.23:11
loolplars: I think it's a strong commitment, but I also think we want to be clearer about who owns what; if the team is just sub-ed, it's not clear we need to do any action, it might just be an issue affecting us which we're waiting a fix of23:11
loolNCommander: I actually have something else to offer on that subject, but i'd like to reach consensus on assign/subscribe23:12
plarslool: the other problem I see, is that it is difficult from a triage perspective to determine which bugs the mobile team is interested in being subscribed to, vs. which should be clearly assigned to the mobile team23:12
plarsunless you have a clear way of determining that?23:12
NCommanderWhat about subscribing bugs of interest, and tagging ones we might want to take action on?23:13
loolplars: So the way I see it, bugs just live against projects and we see them through various subscriptions; at some point, there are more important bugs for which we want an explicit tracking or for which we want to commit to fixing23:13
loolplars: Typically, milestoned bug, bugs blocking work, bugs relevant for implementation of a spec, bugs for which we committed to another team to do somethihng about23:14
=== bazhang_ is now known as bazhang
loolWhen triaging bugs, we focus on making sure the bug is in a good shape, and for serious bugs we take action to assign someone23:14
plarslool: ok, so who would look at a bug and say "yes, the mobile team needs to work on this" and make the assignment?  Is that something you would expect a bug submitter to do? triager? or a dev from the mobile team?23:14
ogra_triager and mobile team23:15
ogra_if the triager is able to judge23:15
loolplars: I think it could be other teams, the triager, and mobile team declaring "this needs our action"23:15
loolIt's a strong commitment though23:16
plarseven if it's something you expect a triager to do, then there needs to be a clear delineation of how to tell which bugs need to be subscribed, and which need to be assigned23:16
=== apachelogger is now known as hsitter
loolIt's a good question, I find it hard to tell at which point you decide you need to raise it to the team action's list23:16
plarslool: which brings me back to the original idea of... subscribe, then someone who *knows* should determine that it needs to be assigned23:17
StevenKSubscribe in the first case, if we feel it's important enough, we'll take it?23:17
loolplars: Oh a two level process is fine with me23:17
plarsI want to avoid someone opening a bug and randomly assigning it to the team23:17
ogra_StevenK, ++23:17
loolplars: I don't mind subscribe or subscribe + assign23:17
GrueMasterI'd say subscribe first, assign second.23:17
loolSeems we have good consensus here23:17
plarsseems so, so moving on to team then?23:18
loolplars: The way I see it, during our meetings we'll look at all sub-ed + assigned bugs23:18
plarswhich team to use? canonical-moibile? ubuntu-mobile?23:18
loolFor assigned bugs we'll ask individuals how they are making progress, or assign individuals23:18
loolFor sub-ed bugs we'd discuss impact and progress23:18
plarsand the other question is, do we distinguish between armel and unr bugs for team assignment/subscription?23:18
loolTeams: ubuntu-mobile is sadly conflated for historical reasons23:18
loolIt served Ubuntu MID and has random people in it who don't really follow everything we do23:19
loolubuntu-mobile is a bit broad: you wouldn't expect someone to pick arm and unr bugs23:19
loolSo instead I propose we use more specific teams; ubuntu-unr (exists) and a new ubuntu-arm23:19
plarsthe third options is - do we need a new team(s)?  ...probably a bigger can of worms than I was hoping to open here23:19
NCommanderlool, I thought ubuntu-arm existed23:19
loolThere are examples of ubuntu-$arch teams already23:19
ogra_good idea23:19
loolNCommander: it does not23:19
loolOr didn't last time I checked23:20
NCommanderlool, those teams exist more for kernel development23:20
* NCommander is in all of them already...23:20
loolNCommander: they exist for porting23:20
ogra_if it does we'll call it ubuntu-leg :P23:20
* NCommander wonders if ogra will ever run out of puns23:20
ogra_not me23:20
ajmitchNCommander: not possible23:20
loolplars: using non-canonical teams is aimed at community participation, right?23:21
loolplars: I don't think we can expect community people to participate in exactly the same technical topics23:21
plarslool: yes, canonical and non-canonical inclusive23:21
loolSo all I wish for is to use finer grained topics, and hence teams23:21
loolSo ~ubuntu-unr, ~ubuntu-armish etc.23:21
plarsalthough, I don't think that subscribing (or assigning) to a canonical team necessarily excludes broad participation either23:21
lool(not suggesting exact names here)23:22
StevenK~ubuntu-amish ! \o/23:22
loolStevenK: Out!  :)23:22
StevenK  /part23:22
loolplars: Also, these teams could server QA contacts for source packages23:22
dyfetStevenK: and I was doing to suggest that was a bad choice ;)23:22
loole.g. UNR packages, or say Moblin packages if we ever package that23:22
ogra_whats moblin ?23:22
NCommanderMY EYES23:22
* ogra_ hides23:22
loolarmish was just an example; ~ubuntu-armel would be a nicer one for porting issues23:23
NCommanderlool, that's a four letter word around here23:23
loolDo people agree with giner grained teams?23:23
loolWith ginger breaded teams23:23
* GrueMaster yawns23:23
* ogra_ agrees with giner ... 23:23
loolGeez *finer23:23
ogra_not so sure about finer23:23
* NCommander would perfer cinnamon23:23
StevenKMmmmm, Ginger23:23
NCommanderok, I think we've gone too far with the puns.23:23
playya_for some parts in -mobile you need the hardware, which sometimes is not available for the community23:23
loolplars: Does that work with you?23:23
plarsI am in favor of that, but we need to define what they are and create them if they do not already exist... as was already pointed out, ubuntu-mobile already exists, but doesn't make sense to use23:24
loolplars: Exactly23:24
loolUps s/plars/playya23:24
playya_or to expensive to build some packages on it23:24
loolI think we want -unr, -armel for porting issues FTBFS, crashes etc.23:24
loolPerhaps we want one for imx51, but that seems a bit heavy23:24
ogra_playya_, but if youre in the team you can ask people with the HW for help23:25
loolplars: Perhaps we can keep canonical-mobile by default when we don't have a more specific team?23:25
StevenK+1 for -armel23:25
playya_many project have the problem that they start with a lot of hackers. but when everthing (newarly) works they are away23:25
NCommander+1 for -arm23:25
ogra_lool, no, not imx51 specific23:25
loologra_: Yeah23:25
ogra_+1 for -armel23:25
loolplars: Is this enough for a start?23:26
playya_ogra, yes. i started the freesmartphone.org team. but i don't have hardware which runs ubuntu and has a gsm modem23:26
plarslool: I think so, yes.  However I haven't looked into creating teams before, who would need to do that?23:26
ogra_playya_, right, but you have people in the team with such HW (i hope)23:26
loolplars: So we could say we regularly triage New bugs tagged armel, and new bugs against Ubuntu UNR packages23:26
loolplars: It's trivial, and one is already there23:26
loolplars: It's just two clicks away in LP23:27
NCommanderwho wants to take that?23:27
loolplars: Do you think you could update the wiki page with more specific workflows for armel bugs and UNR bugs?23:27
plarslool: yes, of course23:27
loolplars: What I'd recommend is using source package's QA contact or subscribe ubuntu-unr to UNR packages23:28
loolAnd for armel it's a bit different, the bugs aren't in a specific package but all over the place, so looking at the armel tag is probably the best thing to do23:28
loolWe get these bugs directly usually (i.e. we are pinged about them :)23:28
ogra_or file them ourselves23:29
loolIs anything left to discuss on this topic; do other people have comment on plars' page?23:29
plarslool: usually, yes, but circumstances could change with that23:29
plarsanother question I had23:29
plarswhat about bugs that are against the image23:29
plarsi.e. not a specific package23:29
loolplars: there's a project to file these bugs against23:29
plarslool: right, which is?23:29
loolplars: If it's an installation issue, I think they get reported against ubiquity or debian-installer (dependning on the image type)23:30
loolplars: Concerning bugs due to the cdimage software, against ubuntu-cdimage23:30
loolIt's a separate project which represents issues in the images (image format, image name, scripts creating the images, missing files in the image etc.)23:30
plarsok, thought so... istr seeing one that didn't fit either of those, but I can't remember where it was23:30
loolThe cdimage team deals with these23:31
ogra_file it against lool then23:31
plarshopefully things like that will be rare23:31
NCommanderubuntu-bug -p lool :-)23:31
loolplars: Unfortunately, we're a team with a good load of cdimage bugs  :)  image additions, image formats etc. are all our league23:31
NCommanderCan someone send me the sparknotes version of what we just discussed?23:31
NCommanderOr better yet23:32
NCommanderUpdate the wiki, and then ping me?23:32
loolNCommander: I'm telepathy-ing it to you, close your eyes23:32
NCommanderHrm, so that's the answer to everything.23:32
plarsNCommander: basically, I have an action to update the wiki, and someone needs an action to create those teams... I can take both but may need to ping someone if I run into trouble creating the teams23:32
NCommander[action] plars to update the wiki and to create teams23:32
MootBotACTION received:  plars to update the wiki and to create teams23:32
loolplars: Happy to help23:32
loolplars: But really trivial don't bother23:32
NCommander[topic] Specification Review (finally)23:32
MootBotNew Topic:  Specification Review (finally)23:32
plarsI'm a pessimist, lool says 2 clicks and I see 2 exposures where everything could blow up :)23:33
loolStevenK: can you make ~ubuntu-unr owned by canonical-mobile, davidm, or me?23:33
StevenKSure, but wish?23:33
StevenKEr, which23:33
NCommander[topic] mobile-unr-karmic-connman  (paullui)23:34
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-connman  (paullui)23:34
loolplars: I created ~ubuntu-armel :)23:34
plarslool: thanks23:35
NCommanderdidn't we decide on ~ubuntu-arm?23:35
loolStevenK: canonical-mobile?23:35
ogra_didnt you say thats for kernel ?23:35
GrueMasteror ubuntu-limb?23:35
StevenKlool: Sure23:35
* NCommander hits StevenK with a buggy23:35
paulliuNCommander: ok.23:35
NCommanderogra_, I'm just not saying anything at this point23:35
loolplars: owner is canonical-mobile; you can change details if you like23:35
NCommanderpaulliu, what's your status on this spec.23:35
paulliuNCommander: I just see it today.23:35
NCommanderpaulliu, Oh ...23:36
NCommanderThat's easy :-)23:36
NCommander[topic] mobile-unr-karmic-seeds  (StevenK)23:36
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-seeds  (StevenK)23:36
=== asac_ is now known as asac
loolDrafter plars23:36
loolNCommander: eh two secs23:36
* NCommander stops23:36
loolplars: (Did you complete drafting of connman?)23:36
loolOh right it's approved, nevermind23:37
looli'm slow23:37
StevenKIn progress, waiting for LP changes, tasksel, livecd-rootfs, etc23:37
plarslool: to the extent I can, unless anyone wants to add anything23:37
loolIf it's approved it's perfect!23:37
loolStevenK: Needs infrastructure or just your work?23:37
NCommanderperfection doesn't exist. Its an illusion of the mind or an untenable goal23:37
NCommanderYOur pick.23:37
StevenKlool: The latter, it's underway23:38
NCommander[action] mobile-karmic-armel-toolchain  (lool)23:38
MootBotACTION received:  mobile-karmic-armel-toolchain  (lool)23:38
StevenKNCommander: Fail. [topic]23:39
NCommander[topic] mobile-karmic-armel-toolchain  (lool)23:39
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-karmic-armel-toolchain  (lool)23:39
* NCommander notes writing the minutes for this meeting is going to be a *explicative deleted*23:39
loolThat's moved to adam23:39
loolWhich is why it's need infrastructure23:39
NCommanderlool, adam == infinity?23:40
NCommanderOh, ok23:40
loolOnce we have qemu buildds we can change the toolchain23:40
loolWe're going for qemu 0.923:40
NCommanderlool, what's our timeline looking like for that?23:40
loolAs 0.10+ is unstable for him, and works for me :-(23:40
loolinfinity should hopefully provide qemu buildds soon, but he didn't give any date23:40
loolI think we can hope for next week23:40
NCommanderlool, please make sure we get a virtual porting box so I can move our apport retracer23:41
NCommanderI don't want to loose that now that we have a stable release23:41
NCommander(if thats not possible I'll talk to you on other possibilities)23:42
loolNCommander: Could you bring that up with him directly?23:42
loolThe qemu stuff is just interim really23:42
loolWe're moving to real hardware ASAP23:42
loolBe it B2.5 or Marvell23:42
NCommanderlool, right, but the porting box is the lowest priority thing we need in the DC23:42
loolWhat works and we have enough of and IS will take :)23:42
NCommanderSo I don't want it overlooked; I might be able to run apport-retracer outside the DC though (there is no technical limitation on that, but I'll have to get approval)23:42
NCommander[topic] mobile-qa-karmic-arm  (plars)23:43
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-qa-karmic-arm  (plars)23:43
plarsnot really time to (officially) start these two yet23:43
plarsI've done some prep work for them, but that's about it at this point23:43
NCommanderBTW, a quick annoucement: StevenK has implemented our first spec this cycle23:43
ogra_last week already23:43
* StevenK wins23:43
ogra_no news23:43
NCommander[topic] karmic-freescale-desktop  (NCommander)23:44
MootBotNew Topic:  karmic-freescale-desktop  (NCommander)23:44
NCommander[topic] karmic-freescale-desktop  (ogra)23:44
MootBotNew Topic:  karmic-freescale-desktop  (ogra)23:44
ogra_no kernel yet23:44
ogra_but ongoing23:44
NCommander[topic] karmic-marvell-desktop  (NCommander)23:44
MootBotNew Topic:  karmic-marvell-desktop  (NCommander)23:44
NCommanderNo hardware yet23:44
NCommanderBut I did break down the TODO list on the wiki earlier today, I'll put these in the whiteboard and find victims^W volunteers.23:44
NCommander[topic] mobile-arm-karmic-easy-redboot-m... (ogra)23:45
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-easy-redboot-m... (ogra)23:45
ogra_approved ... not started23:45
loolWe have /some/ hardware for marvell; just not very stable; fortunately we're getting more23:45
ogra_needs the new redboot source too23:45
NCommanderogra, feel free to ping me once that materializes23:45
NCommander[topic] mobile-unr-karmic-wubi  (StevenK)23:45
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-wubi  (StevenK)23:45
StevenKWaiting for -seeds23:46
* ogra_ wants to see mobile-unr-karmic-wubi-armel :)23:46
StevenKAt this point23:46
NCommanderogra, with a windows ce installer?23:46
NCommander[topic] mobile-arm-karmic-softboot-loader  (NCommander)23:46
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-softboot-loader  (NCommander)23:46
NCommanderSuccessful proof of concept23:46
NCommanderBut I ran into an interesting hitch23:46
NCommanderI have no ARM hardware that can kexec23:46
ogra_fix kexec23:47
NCommanderOn x86, I have hardware that can kexec, but breaks if you access /dev/fb0 before doing so (known bug in kexec upstream)23:47
NCommanderogra, ENOTAKERNELHACKER23:47
ogra_the hw you have needs to support it23:47
NCommanderI found that the PS3 does support both23:47
NCommanderI'm tryng to justify buying one for myself for ... work purposes23:47
NCommander(I also tried on my SPARC (couldn't get /dev/fb0 to work), and on the ia64 (don't ask))23:47
NCommanderI'm currently asking my loco to see if someone can loan me some PPC hardware shortterm for this23:48
NCommanderUpstream is working on a curses based UI23:48
NCommanderBut its not expected to land for a few more weeks.23:48
NCommanderI'm filing feature requests and helping them get a roadmap of what we need to implement to make this fly.23:48
NCommanderI"ll skip the UNR specs23:49
NCommander[topic] mobile-unr-karmic-application-res (pauliu)23:49
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-application-res (pauliu)23:49
plarslooks like that one still needs drafting23:50
NCommander[topic] mobile-arm-karmic-offline-installer-gui (ogra)23:50
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-offline-installer-gui (ogra)23:50
ogra_approved, in the works ...23:50
NCommander[topic] mobile-karmic-arm-cloud-builds (lool)23:50
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-karmic-arm-cloud-builds (lool)23:50
ogra_waiting for thye LP team to rename the project23:50
NCommanderlool, ?23:51
ogra_asleep ... nearl 1am :P23:51
loolThat was deping on the qemu stuff23:51
loolI didn't make more progress on it this week23:51
NCommander[topic] mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling (lool)23:51
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling (lool)23:51
* ogra_ wasnt aware23:52
NCommander[topic] mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling (ogra)23:52
ogra_drafting, needs more papaerwork i didnt manage yet23:52
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling (ogra)23:52
ogra_will be approved before next meeting23:52
NCommander[topic] mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop (ogra)23:53
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop (ogra)23:53
ogra_thats dyfet23:53
NCommander[topic] mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop (dyfet)23:53
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop (dyfet)23:53
* GrueMaster hands NCommander a pair of glasses.23:53
dyfetIt seems a "lubuntu movement" has also separately emerged...23:53
NCommanderGrueMaster, I'm reading about how Michael Jackson died on the Chumby ...23:53
* ogra_ hands NCommander https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~canonical-mobile?show=all23:53
NCommanderogra, I got it23:54
ogra_he dies on the chumby ? now thats news23:54
NCommander[topic] (mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting (plars)23:54
MootBotNew Topic:  (mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting (plars)23:54
NCommanderogra, no, I pulled the news up23:54
plarsjust drafted, needs approval23:54
NCommanderFarrah Fawcett also died23:54
NCommander[topic] Roadmap Review23:55
MootBotNew Topic:  Roadmap Review23:55
NCommander[topic] ubuntu-mobile-voice-user-interface (dyfet)23:55
MootBotNew Topic:  ubuntu-mobile-voice-user-interface (dyfet)23:55
GrueMasterUh, what about mobile-unr-karmic-applications?23:55
dyfetThis has only a few items in karmic timeframe, and one of them have been picked up by the community23:56
NCommanderI missed one23:56
NCommander[topic] mobile-unr-karmic-applications (GrueMaster)23:56
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-applications (GrueMaster)23:56
GrueMasterI've pinged a couple of people on OEM & DX to work with me on reviewing the current stack.  No response so far.23:57
NCommanderFor the specs that we're tracking on other teams23:57
GrueMasterAlso, desktop is talking about switching to banshee from rythymbox.23:57
NCommanderWho's been following those ?23:57
NCommander(i.e., who can report status)23:57
NCommanderok then ...23:58
NCommander[topic] Any other business23:58
MootBotNew Topic:  Any other business23:58
NCommanderI got an annoucement23:59
NCommanderWe're in DIF now23:59
* ogra_ too23:59
NCommanderogra, go for it23:59
ogra_i might go to linuxtag depending on how early i get up tomorrow and how i feel about it23:59
StevenKDebian Import Freeze'23:59
ajmitchdebian import freeze, no more autosyncing23:59
ogra_that means i wont be at the call if i doo23:59

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