=== lukjad007 is now known as ShadowChild [01:50] hello guys [01:50] _MMA_, hey, long time no see [01:59] anybody besides TheMuso and ScottL around? [01:59] Ok. Who do we have here for the UbuntuStudio meeting? [02:00] * luisbg_ raises his hand [02:00] I know stochastic wanted to try and make this meeting. [02:00] I'm here for the Ubuntu Studio meeting [02:00] hello Scott [02:00] TheMuso, want to run the show? [02:00] or wait for more people to attend? [02:00] Sure. Do we have an agenda documented anywhere? [02:00] hello luis...brb [02:01] TheMuso, not really, more an open forum... imprompta [02:01] I'll give stochastic a few minutes to show up. [02:01] fair enough [02:01] talk about the future first [02:01] and then follow that [02:01] ok [02:03] Ok will if stochastic shows up, he can jump in. [02:03] we can wait till past 10 maybe? [02:03] Ok, so I think we need to start by looking at the jaunty release, and how it was received, and identify what was good, and what was not so good. [02:03] I'll start, the RT kernel was bad. [02:04] +1 [02:04] the key thing is to figure out how the development process can be improved [02:04] Yeah, and the kernel is something I want to bring up a bit later. [02:04] ok [02:05] Supporting firewire hardware was good. [02:05] :) [02:05] how was the integration between pulseaudio and jack? [02:05] Thanks to rexbron's great work. [02:05] ScottL: Not sure, I don't remember seeing any user reports about that, but it should have been ok. [02:06] I dont recall any words about pa/jack [02:06] If we can get the right bits to land for karmic, it should be even better. [02:06] pulseaudio gives generic problems to all linux users [02:07] Well, its more that pulse exposes bugs in ALA, for the msot part at least. [02:07] ALSA [02:07] most [02:07] I see [02:07] The good thing is that pulseaudio is being developed so rapidly that things are always improving. [02:08] I still think we need pulseaudio in the studio desktop, but as I said, work is ongoing upstrea to improve the communication/integration between pulse and jack. [02:08] TheMuso, I agree [02:09] majority of users want to be able to skype in the same machine they play with ardour/blender [02:09] The other thing that was good last release is the desktop task not being shown on install, as it just gets installed now. [02:09] luisbg_: Yeah, but pulse and skype is going to be an ongoing issue till skype fix their broken use of alsa, or support pulseaudio. [02:09] it was just an example [02:09] Yep. [02:10] There is also bluetooth to consider, but thats more a consumer use case. [02:10] yeap [02:10] more good and bad features? [02:10] art was even better [02:10] lot of people gave me kudos about that [02:11] ScottL: Do you have anything else to mention? [02:11] luisbg_: Cool. [02:11] TheMuso: not really since I still Hardy [02:11] ScottL: Right. [02:11] Ok well I think we [02:11] Ok well I think we'll move on [02:12] yes [02:12] The important thing to me at the moment is what do we do about RT. Unfortunately, the RT patches are always somewhat behind the latest mainline kernel upstream release. We tried getting patches for RT for kernel 2.6.28, which failed badly./ [02:13] sadly Im not aware of the details involved [02:13] never got time to learn how the process works [02:13] and do it myself for once [02:13] We now look at a situation for karmic, where the main kernel will be 2.6.31. We don't even have 2.6.30 RT patches yet, and I don't want to go down the same route we did for jaunty. [02:13] so I think in this room you are the expert [02:13] I will follow what you think is best [02:13] do you see any solution? [02:13] Ok, I am just laying everything out. I wish there were a few more here to have input on this, but anyway. [02:14] Originally, I was thinking that we ship the latest kernel version that has upstrea supported RT patches. However this has been thrown into doubt, as we start getting pieces into the desktop that will require kernel 2.6.31 or better. [02:14] Wouldn't it be better to have older patched RT kernel than current generic kernel? [02:14] sorry, typed too slow [02:15] So at this point, I think we keep an eye on the RT patches as the cycle progresses, and we should find out whether 2.6.30 patches are coming, or even if 2.6.31 patches are planned. [02:15] I think we will no longer have Alessio Abogani's help as I think he has more real life concerns to deal with. [02:15] TheMuso, is there any problem if Studio doesnt have the same version of the kernel than main Ubuntu? [02:15] I recall there was [02:15] packaging probems and more [02:15] I believe having a different version of the kernel will only add to the burden. [02:16] luisbg_: Not really, but it may cause unusual/weird breakage with desktop components, particularly pulseaudio. [02:16] persia: I am in agreement I think./ [02:16] hello persia [02:17] Then there is the question of whether RT is still needed. Some users have reported that the generic kernel has been fine for their audio latency needs. [02:17] what is the differential between RT latency and generic kernel latency? [02:17] sorry again, typed too slow [02:17] TheMuso, hmmmmmm [02:18] I haven't measured it myself, so I can't say for sure, but I think generic wouldn't allow people with older hardware to get as good performance with their hardware. [02:18] it is an interesting topic (that of dropping RT) [02:18] Yes. [02:18] I think we need to ask users to do some testing for us, to get an answer as to whether we should drop RT. [02:18] TheMuso: would a single core computer be considered "older hardware"? [02:18] TheMuso, It's more than that. RT generally gives better performance than generic even on newer hardware. That most people can't hear the difference isn't always what is discussed. [02:19] ScottL: Depends on how old that machine is. [02:19] persia: Right, I think we still need to get users to test for us though. [02:19] persia, and a lot of users want RT [02:19] even if they dont need it [02:19] they feel better with themselves :P [02:19] luisbg, Right, which is the tricky bit. [02:20] So given the mess we are in with trying to stay at the same version as Ubuntu, and not having RT patches, I am not sure where to go from here. [02:21] TheMuso, what do you reckon? [02:21] ask users [02:21] ? [02:21] persia is right in what he says about RT giving better performance regardless of hardware. [02:21] And I think those users who tested generic may have not tested performance with a full session load, i.e ardour with multiple plugins and other apps. [02:22] And people always want to try to get more out of their hardware. [02:22] I think we just have to track upstream RT as well as we can, short of finding someone who knows the patches well enough to help us forward port them again. [02:22] this RT kernel availability issue will continue to be a problem, will it not? [02:22] TheMuso, Im sorry the burden of RT is going to fall into your workload [02:22] ScottL: I think it will be, particularly if we want to track Ubuntu's kernel version, yes. [02:22] I don't think it's a useful thing to ask users. On the other hand, I think it is a useful thing to offer RT iff we can get RT patches for the current kernel. [02:22] so if you want to deal with it [02:22] Im not going to say "No" :) [02:23] Well, if I deal with it, I'll be able to do less of other things. I am interested in getting an RT kernel happening, and integrating jack and pulse. I am happy to sponsor other work from others who work on other things, but my focus from here on out I think will be the core pieces. [02:24] Which brings us to the next topic I think, which is manpower... Unless anyone has anything else to add about RT. [02:25] I know this is going to sound weird but... [02:25] RT is a big element in the "what differs Studio from main Ubuntu" [02:25] everytime somebody asks me about what is the difference [02:25] the conversation gets to a point where the question follows to [02:26] That doesn't sound weird to me. [02:26] "so what is the difference of grabing main ubuntu and installing the metas (or a list of cool creative apps)?" [02:26] and RT falls into the "ok, that is a big difference" [02:26] Installing the metas would install RT anyway. [02:26] Yeah. [02:26] FWIW, I'd rather have a machine that records music well than supports latest kernel/apps [02:26] *than* not that [02:26] ScottL, :) [02:27] persia, I agree, yes [02:27] The difference between installing Desktop and Studio metas and installing Studio is mostly about the default theme. [02:27] but without RT the need for a separate install disk is very little [02:27] Oh, and stuff like Network Manager vs. Network Utilities. [02:27] yes [02:27] luckily Canonical helps us with the builds of the disks [02:27] I disagree. I believe there is utility to having a disk with the applications. [02:28] so it doesnt really matter that much [02:28] oh yeah [02:28] Many people don't have optimised network connections in their studios. [02:28] off course having a 15 minute install and ready [02:28] is way better than 15 minute install, plus downloading and installing all the metas [02:28] if you can download off course [02:29] But we've focused on RT for a while, to the detriment of other things. [02:30] speaking of manpower...I want to help, but limited with experience [02:30] I think we ought leave RT this cycle, to see what we can get from upstream, and call it best-effort. Let's focus on polishing the other stuff (which takes us to manpower) [02:30] I've only been using LInux for two years [02:30] I think we use the altest rt patches from upstream, and either work around, drop, or backport the patches we need for 2.6.31 desktop pieces. If that makes sense. [02:30] persia, we can have RT in the LTS and no RT in the other ones [02:30] persia: right [02:30] TheMuso, That does make sense. I just don't think we should consider not having RT a blocker. [02:30] right. [02:30] luisbg, Having an RT requirement for LTS makes sense to me. [02:31] persia, and we can focus manpower into other stuff in non-LTS releases [02:31] (There are also plenty of non-Studio RT users who would be served by that) [02:31] kinda like working in stages to a powerful LTS [02:31] Right. [02:31] I want to talk about manpower later btw ;) [02:32] What comes before manpower for our agenda then? [02:32] finishing with RT [02:32] I don't think there is anything else. [02:32] :) [02:32] Thats decided I think, best effort is all we can do. [02:32] I'll keep on it as well as I can. [02:33] trying to do RT in all releases as best as we can? [02:34] Yep, but we don't attempt to forward port/backport RT patches unless we have someone who knows them intimately, and can be certain that there will be little to no problems;/ [02:34] i.e we track upstream's available patches. [02:34] Ok, so man power, and how we can recruit more help., [02:34] This is what it all comes down to. [02:35] recruiting [02:36] and current developers and how much time they have for the project [02:36] I think the first place to start, is to get users testing the alphas at a minimum, and testing dailies at best. [02:36] luisbg_: Right. [02:36] myself... [02:36] with more responsabilities at work [02:36] and a full employee [02:37] as you guys have noticed probably... have less time than a year ago [02:37] luisbg_: Yep, and thats understandable. [02:37] I'm happy to offer the lead position to Luke [02:37] specially since he has more direct relations with the rest of community and canonical staff [02:37] :) [02:37] I'm dying to help with stuff if someone points me in the right direction [02:38] luisbg_: If you really don't think you can reliably take care of that position, and if there is nobody else who is interested in leading the project, then I may consider accepting. [02:38] and willing to answer questions when I get stuck [02:38] ScottL, I think you've hit the most critical bit. Building a task list. [02:38] TheMuso, I will be available [02:38] just not as much [02:38] We need some clear direction on goals, and some organisation of stuff needing doing. [02:38] and as you know slightly unmotivated after the whole UDS/OVC fiasco [02:38] luisbg_: Right. [02:39] * ScottK wonders who this ScottL is? [02:39] TheMuso, I will tell you about OVC in an other moment [02:39] Ok, I'll sit down this weekend and see if I can come up with a task list, and some bits on how people can get stuck into that task list to help. [02:39] TheMuso, dont worry about this... we will work something out [02:39] Sorry to interrupt, but it seemed funny from here. [02:39] TheMuso, about recruiting [02:40] luisbg_: ok [02:40] we should blog and shoot at the mailing lists soon [02:40] ok [02:40] this is an approach we can take [02:40] ScottL, want to help recruiting? [02:40] certainly [02:40] Since my recent rekindling interest in producing music, I want to keep the project alive, and will do what I can to keep it that way. [02:41] TheMuso, Im aware of that [02:41] and I want to hear that music of yours [02:41] and will help to get to listen to it :P [02:41] TheMuso, you prepare that task list [02:41] heh, it will be a while yet, but it will happen. [02:41] I will shout in blog and mailing lists [02:41] and ScottL will grab the task list and the people interested at my shouts [02:41] luisbg_: Ok sounds good, will have a look at it on the weekend. [02:41] and gather a work force :) [02:42] TheMuso, yeah... I will be in the middle of the ocean with no internet connection for the next week [02:42] luisbg_: sounds like a plan [02:42] until Guadec starts (2nd of July) [02:42] luisbg_: right, I saw your message. [02:42] TheMuso, so staying with the manpower and managing of the project [02:42] something I want to change is making things a little more serious [02:43] I will grab the tasklist and write it as action items in a wikipage [02:43] I was thinking of wikifying it myself. [02:43] then with the help of Scott assign action items to people [02:43] TheMuso, perfect! [02:43] When I do the list, I'll put it on the wiki, and will let everyone know on the list. [02:43] ok [02:44] then we can keep track of who is doing what [02:44] what is being done by whom [02:44] Yep. [02:44] times [02:44] schedules [02:44] Scheduling is always inconvenient, but regular meetings can often help with visibility and task tracking. [02:44] persia, I agree [02:44] my atempts of general meetings failed [02:44] so having a more person to person tracking system [02:44] will help me have one-to-one meetings [02:45] luisbg, If you have the time to coordinate that... [02:45] and keeping track (I will have a file for myself in a project tracking app) [02:45] persia, I think it will take me the same time, it will just be more optimized [02:45] right now there is a lot of running around :P [02:46] luisbg_: If you feel thats all you can do for the project atm, thats fine by me at least. [02:46] We just need some coordination and assigning of tasks, as already stated. [02:46] TheMuso, I will try to assign some action items to myself too [02:46] specially stuff related to parts of the project that Im experienced with [02:47] as I can do changes in the menu/controls quicker [02:47] Right. [02:47] TheMuso, going slightly off topic [02:47] but you and me need to decide a time that suits us both to talk every once in a while [02:47] luisbg_: Certainly, I'm happy for that to be a weekend if that suits you better. [02:48] right now it seams that every time I arrive at the office you are heading to bed, and when I leave the office you are waking up [02:48] Right [02:48] what is your usual on-line time each day [02:49] if I know you are going to be online when it's 11pm here, Im happy to jump in to talk and then continue with my night [02:49] Working week, from about 8:00AM/22:00UTC through to 5:00PM/0700:UTC [02:49] Weekends, it can vary. [02:50] But if it has to be a weekend, I can make the time. [02:50] Even if thats the only studio thing I do for that weekend. [02:50] forget about weekends [02:50] :) [02:51] Ok [02:51] let me check that 8-22 in respect to time difference [02:51] Ok, we are almost out of time. Is there anything else? [02:51] re: meetings, I personally prefer group meetings so I can understand what all is going on [02:51] but i understand that the two of you will need to discuss things [02:52] And with the existing team members so spread, thats not very easy. Look at the hassle we had getting this meeting going. [02:52] TheMuso, your 8am is my 11pm [02:52] luisbg_: Right, sounds good. [02:53] I will just ping you at 8:30 or around that time [02:53] :) [02:53] Ok sounds fine by me. [02:53] ScottL, do you have skype? [02:54] luisbg_: not at the moment, haven't really had a need atm [02:54] not for now now [02:54] will might be calling you in a few weeks though :) [02:54] just something you should have in mind to get sorted [02:54] it will be done [02:54] always easier to talk one-to-one on voice than chat chat chat :) [02:55] persia, any other topic you want to bring to the floor? [02:55] News just to hand, 2.6.31-rc1 is out. [02:57] TheMuso, cool! [02:57] luisbg, No. [02:57] cool [02:57] well [02:57] Im happy we have a plan now :) [02:57] lets put it in motion [02:58] Indeed. [02:59] well [02:59] anything else before we close the meeting people? [02:59] * luisbg_ has a plane to catch tomorrow :) [03:00] Have fun, and nothing from me. [03:00] TheMuso, talk to you soon and see you in August also \m/ [03:00] I have nothing more to add at this time [03:00] persia, are you coming to guadec by any chance? [03:01] ScottL, what is your time zone btw? [03:01] luisbg, I'm not. [03:01] central in the US [03:01] cool [03:01] I lived 9 months in Denver [03:03] Ok, till later folks. [03:03] hello cody-somerville [03:03] Meeting adjourned [03:03] Hi luisbg_ [03:03] bye, talk to you soon [03:03] how is all cody? [03:04] luisbg_, all cody is well, thanks. yourself? [03:04] doing good [03:04] in hollidays :) [03:05] well [03:05] gotta go to sleep [03:05] night everybody! [03:37] Long live Fedora [03:38] hello/ [03:38] hi [03:38] hello [03:39] can we do something about maybe making a TV ad on Ubuntu [03:39] !brainstorm > nextstepusr [03:39] nextstepusr, please see my private message [03:40] I know about brainstorm but none of the users ideas are ever implements [03:40] *impolemented [03:43] hello? [03:45] People please state their countey [03:45] country [03:45] nextstepusr, chat in #ubuntu-offtopic [09:11] cjwatson: yeah, I think I missed one of the implications from the conversation we had. :) === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson === nizarus_ is now known as nizarus === randa is now known as randa-lunch === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach === yofel_ is now known as yofel [16:40] dholbach, geser, nixternal, jpds, nhandler, soren: Are enough of you going to be about that I can miss the meeting in a bit? [16:41] soren and jpds wanted to be around [16:41] nhandler is not going to be here [16:41] dunno about geser and nixternal [16:41] Hello [16:42] hello AnAnt [16:51] * geser waves [16:51] persia: ^ :) [16:56] Afternoon. [16:59] hello everybody [17:00] Hello [17:00] uh, fridge and wiki are not coherent about the meeting start... [17:00] dholbach: is fridge right? [17:00] geser, jpds, soren: around? [17:00] Ja. [17:00] gaspa: we moved AnAnt a bit earlier because he couldn't attend the later meeting [17:00] #startmeeting [17:00] Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is dholbach. [17:00] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [17:00] gaspa: we moved the meeting one hour before to suit AnAnt better [17:01] uops... so I should run home. [17:01] [TOPIC] Contributing Developer application: أحمد المحمودي (Ahmed El-Mahmoudy) [17:01] New Topic: Contributing Developer application: #-E/ 'DE-EH/J (Ahmed El-Mahmoudy) [17:01] MootBot: you fail! :) [17:01] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%D8%A3%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AF%D9%8A/UniverseContributorApplication [17:01] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%D8%A3%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AF%D9%8A/UniverseContributorApplication [17:01] UTF8 problem ? [17:01] looks like, yes :) [17:01] AnAnt: how are you doing? [17:02] fine, thanks, how are you ? [17:02] a bit tired... but generally alright :) [17:02] AnAnt: what have you mostly been focusing ubuntu-wise in the last time? was it sabily? [17:03] some Debian packages [17:03] but a couple of months ago it was sabily [17:03] lately dico got accepted [17:03] what has the response been like regarding sabily? [17:03] what response ? [17:04] from users [17:04] did you see a great uptake after the sabily release? [17:04] yes, I see many happy with it [17:04] except for the web control software [17:04] webstrict [17:05] I noticed on the blueprints that Ubuntu is working on one, so probably we may use that [17:05] cool [17:05] what was the biggest challenge when you worked on sabily? [17:05] other than that, users are happy with the applications we ship by default, and the themes [17:05] I had a look at a few screenshots - it looked great :-) [17:06] hmmm, the artwork packages were the biggest challenge I think [17:06] the reason, is that to make our themes the default themes, one had to do stuff with gconf & so [17:06] before I worked on it, they used to do things in a way that is against Debian policy [17:07] like manually editing conf files & so [17:07] *nod* that's what I heard from a few other derivatives too, that branding wasn't the easiest thing [17:07] currently there is still one thing that is against the policy (that's the main reason that we didn't try to push it to Ubuntu repos yet) [17:07] but hopefully that would change after grub2 [17:08] how is the effort behind non-solar-based calendars coming on? to me it seems like there's quite a few components that would need changing [17:08] dholbach: well, I only know of two software doing so: libitl0 & python-hijri [17:09] python-hijri isn't in Debian/Ubuntu yet, because of the copyright, there's a difference in opinion wether it is DFSG compliant or not [17:09] python-hijri is on the PPA though [17:09] I just looked at POSIX 2008 standard yesterday [17:10] right... I was just asking because I know that bugs for this in glib and glibc have been open for years [17:10] I still don't find any support for non-solar-based calendars [17:10] AnAnt: you could ask for a review by the archive admins to find out if it's suitable for inclusion in Ubuntu [17:10] it sounds like it would solve a bunch of problems [17:10] dholbach: really ? please give me links to those bugs [17:10] * soren is around now as well, after kicking his X server around a bit :( [17:11] but I still think that this should better be in glibc not in some libraries [17:11] AnAnt: I'll try to find them [17:11] for example I use mutt [17:11] am I going to make mutt use libitl0 to support hijri [17:11] if we do this for every app that would be just too much ! [17:12] yeah [17:12] soren, geser, jpds: more questions? [17:12] No, I was going to ask about the calendar thing as well :) [17:12] AnAnt: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=344005 (glib) [17:12] no [17:12] dholbach: thanks [17:12] Error: Could not parse XML returned by Gnome: timed out (http://bugzilla.gnome.org/xml.cgi?id=344005) [17:12] None from me. [17:13] soren: any more questions from you? [17:13] Nope. [17:13] [vote] Shall Ahmed El-Mahmoudy become Contributing Developer? [17:13] Please vote on: Shall Ahmed El-Mahmoudy become Contributing Developer?. [17:13] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [17:13] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [17:14] +1 [17:14] +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [17:14] +1 [17:14] +1 received from soren. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [17:14] +1 [17:14] +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [17:15]