[00:15] <rickspencer3> robert_ancell: hello
[00:15] <robert_ancell> rickspencer3, hello
[00:52] <rickspencer3> thanks robert_ancell
[00:52] <robert_ancell> no prob
[06:42] <pitti> Good morning
[06:43]  * ajmitch waves at pitti :)
[06:43] <pitti> multi-wave!
[06:43] <ajmitch> it's the way of the future according to google
[06:44]  * ajmitch wishes that new upstream versions of packages could be uploaded without their big orig.tar.gz
[07:19] <Amaranth> whee, 100 more emails for compiz bugmail :/
[08:23] <seb128> hello there
[08:23] <didrocks> hi seb128
[08:24] <mvo> hey seb128!
[08:25] <mvo> and didrocks
[08:25] <didrocks> morning mvo :)
[08:29] <seb128> hey didrocks mvo
[08:36] <seb128> pitti, \o/ for fixing dock station
[08:36] <pitti> yay
[08:36] <pitti> hey seb128
[08:36] <seb128> hello pitti
[08:36] <pitti> and because it's so nice, I'm going to fix the power button -> g-p-m as well now
[08:36] <seb128> pitti, new gdm works fine on current karmic for me btw, I played with it yesterday
[08:36] <pitti> cool
[08:36] <seb128> pitti, what issue do you have?
[08:36] <pitti> seb128: well, press it and see nothing happen :)
[08:36] <seb128> pitti, I didn't change anything, it's just working there ...
[08:37] <pitti> really? that would surprise me
[08:37] <seb128> no error? you told me some dbus policy things?
[08:37] <pitti> oh, gdm
[08:37] <seb128> pitti, well that's what I'm telling you, karmic + ppa build = working
[08:37] <pitti> I thought "power button"
[08:37] <pitti> sorry, ECONTEXT
[08:40] <seb128> pitti, anyway I would appreciate if you could try again and give me details on the issue if it's still broken for you
[08:43] <pitti> seb128: will do after I'm done fiddling with hal
[08:43] <robert_ancell> hi all
[08:43] <seb128> hey robert_ancell!
[08:44] <seb128> how was your day?
[08:45] <seb128> pitti, do you know where should locale collation bugs be assigned?
[08:45] <seb128> pitti, libc6, locales, other?
[08:45] <pitti> seb128: langpack-locales, please
[08:45] <seb128> pitti, thanks
[08:45] <pitti> (locales binary, indeed)
[08:45] <robert_ancell> reasonably productive.  Been bogged down by admin... Flights, document, etc etc
[08:46] <seb128> I still didn't book for the sprint, flight options sucking
[08:49] <robert_ancell> seb128, I tried to get good options with the agent but they're pretty useless.  And being in the wrong timezone doesn't help.  I'm going to petition for an agent on this side of the world :)
[08:50] <seb128> good luck ;-)
[08:50]  * robert_ancell has an empty inbox. Yay!
[08:50]  * seb128 sends some emails to robert_ancell
[08:50] <robert_ancell> grr
[08:50] <seb128> robert_ancell, any idea why compiz-gnome still depends on libgnomevfs?
[08:51]  * pitti ^5s robert_ancell
[08:51] <pitti> had that two days ago, now back to 3 :(
[08:51] <robert_ancell> seb128: no idea, I've only done my first compiz package updates today
[08:52] <robert_ancell> that reminds me. mvo - what is the state of the bzr checkins for the compiz packages? Some of them don't match the package name
[08:54] <mvo> robert_ancell: last I checked the bzr and the archive were in sync.
[08:55] <mvo> robert_ancell: we need to rename some stuff anyway, the "fusion" name was dropped again and its now just compiz again
[08:55] <robert_ancell> mvo: yes, I was going to ask about that too
[08:56] <robert_ancell> mvo: The compiz-fusion-plugins-extra package isn't checked in properly and compiz-fusion-plugins-main is called compcomm-plugins-main in bzr
[08:57] <robert_ancell> mvo, also does synaptic make tarball releases? I was trying to update http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/versions.html but I can't find any
[08:57] <robert_ancell> and to continue the continuous questioning... mvo, what is the relationship between compiz debian and ubuntu? Are there any plans to merge packages?
[08:59] <seb128> robert_ancell, you are the man in charge of compiz now so it's your call I guess ;-)
[09:00] <pitti> Riddell: any news about bug 339313? (just need current status for today's release team meeting)
[09:01] <mvo> robert_ancell: so many questions
[09:01] <robert_ancell> seb128, I feared that may be the case :)
[09:01] <mvo> robert_ancell: let me check whats wrong with -extra
[09:01] <mvo> robert_ancell: the naming if partly historic, we should fix that
[09:01] <mvo> robert_ancell: the debian packaging is pretty different, they don't use cdbs for anything and maintain it in git
[09:02] <mvo> robert_ancell: but merging some stuff would be good, I just have such a strong dislike for git that I don't started with any of it yet
[09:02] <baptiste> hello gentlemen
[09:03] <mvo> robert_ancell: but actually the packaging is pretty straightforward, the patches are more instressting and they are easy to share, I don't mind throwing away our packagiing and going to debhelper (7 maybe even?)
[09:03] <pitti> mvo: well, we could just ignore the debian git (which we do for most packages anyway)?
[09:03] <seb128> hey baptiste
[09:03] <mvo> pitti: yeah, that is a option as well
[09:04] <robert_ancell> mvo, ok sounds good.  I just wanted to check if there were any differences of direction.  I'll work at renaming, re-version controlling and merging them over time
[09:04] <seb128> or do an import in your favorite vcs
[09:04] <robert_ancell> does anyone know why debian chose quilt? cdbs is _so_ much easier...
[09:04] <pitti> robert_ancell: you can use cdbs with quilt
[09:04] <pitti> just not cdbs-edit-patch :/
[09:05] <seb128> because they are weirdos and like things when they are complicated
[09:05] <pitti> ^ like git :)
[09:05] <robert_ancell> pitti, tease!
[09:05] <mvo> robert_ancell: it maintained in the xorg repo and there rule seems to be "no cdbs"
[09:05] <mvo> no idea why
[09:05] <mvo> seb128++
[09:05] <mvo> ;)
[09:05] <seb128> ;-)
[09:05] <pitti> well, for automake packages, dh 7 with dh auto stuff should be almost as good
[09:05] <mvo> git+quilt+!cdbs
[09:05] <seb128> mvo, btw did you read my comment about update-notifier being one of the few gnomevfs users?
[09:05] <mvo> *weehhh*
[09:05] <pitti> it's just missing our nice langpack/i18n/gnome help symlinking stuff
[09:05] <mvo> seb128: no
[09:06] <seb128> mvo, be a good citizen and stop doing that ;-)
[09:06] <mvo> haha
[09:06] <mvo> ok
[09:06] <seb128> mvo, there is like 6 packages in the default install still using gnomevfs
[09:06] <pitti> seb128: ah, you are attackig them now? nice
[09:06] <seb128> mvo, compiz, update-notifier, evo*, xul and firefox basically
[09:06] <pitti> go, seb128, go!
[09:06] <seb128> pitti, ;-)
[09:07]  * pitti proposes seb128 for https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cruft-busters
[09:07] <mvo> robert_ancell: hm, whats wrong with compiz-fusion-plugins-extra ? it seems like bzr and archive are in sync (or am I missing something)?
[09:07] <seb128> hehe
[09:08] <robert_ancell> mvo, If I do a debcheckout it says "ERROR: Not a branch"
[09:08]  * mvo just searched in vain for the "offer mentoring button"
[09:08] <mvo> robert_ancell: lp:~compiz/compizfusion-plugins-extra/ubuntu
[09:09] <mvo> robert_ancell: we should talk to debian about consistent naming and then rename the branches I think
[09:09] <robert_ancell> mvo, yes
[09:13] <seb128> mvo, did you do any work to switch update-notifier to gtkbuilder rather than libglade?
[09:13] <seb128> mvo, if not I will work on a patch for that today
[09:13] <seb128> mvo, same question for synaptic
[09:14] <mvo> seb128: can glade-3 now read it natively?
[09:14] <seb128> mvo, yes since before jaunty, that's the default option
[09:14] <robert_ancell> mvo, are their synaptic tarballs?
[09:14] <mvo> seb128: sweet
[09:15] <mvo> robert_ancell: no synaptic tarballs, its a native package for ubuntu and debian
[09:15] <mvo> robert_ancell: why?
[09:15] <seb128> robert_ancell, I don't think we need to track apport and synaptic we are upstream for those
[09:15] <pitti> mvo: yes, read and write (it's the default now)
[09:15] <seb128> robert_ancell, ie the reference is ubuntu no reason for it to be ever outdated
[09:15] <robert_ancell> seb128, :( But how can I track the world without tracking everything? ;)
[09:15] <seb128> lol
[09:15] <seb128> robert_ancell, use the ubuntu version as upstream one ;-)
[09:15] <mvo> seb128: I got burned in synaptic when going from glade-2 to glade-3 and it ate a bunch of my widgets
[09:16] <mvo> seb128: thats why I haven't switch yet
[09:16] <robert_ancell> I want to know where Bryce gets his packages from too.  I can't find the versions we have anywhere
[09:16] <seb128> mvo, ok, update-notifier should be easy if you want a patch, will do an easy first cleaning on my list ;-)
[09:16] <mvo> seb128: go ahead, that is very welcome
[09:16] <seb128> good
[09:16]  * seb128 hugs mvo
[09:16]  * mvo goes and checks why its still using gnomevfs 
[09:16]  * mvo hugs seb128
[09:17] <seb128> mvo, I think it's the session thingy
[09:17] <seb128> hum no, that was libgnome
[09:18] <seb128> mvo, could be pulled it due to libgnome still be used
[09:19] <mvo> seb128: sounds likely, I think I ported it some time ago
[09:20] <mvo> seb128: what about the python-gtk support for gtkuibuilder? should I switch update-manager too?
[09:20] <seb128> mvo, that would be nice
[09:27]  * mvo nods
[09:32] <ivanka> seb128, good morning
[09:32] <seb128> ivanka, hello
[09:33] <ivanka> I am going to try and report a bug about banshee not picking up mp3 players or CDs quickly enough
[09:34] <ivanka> We were doing usability testing on Wednesday on 'music and ubuntu' and it came up
[09:37] <pitti> I'm off for some errands and lunch, bbl
[09:41] <seb128> ivanka, ok, do you need any guidance for that?
[09:42] <ivanka> seb128, hope not :-) but will ask if I need to!
[09:43] <seb128> ok
[10:00] <chrisccoulson> has noone looked at the gnome-screensaver upgrade issue yet?
[10:00] <seb128> not that I know
[10:00] <seb128> is there a bug open about it now?
[10:00] <seb128> ie did any user notice?
[10:00] <chrisccoulson> cool. i'll try to set aside some time to debug that this weekend
[10:00] <chrisccoulson> i don't know if there are any bug reports
[10:00] <seb128> good
[10:00] <seb128> ok I was just being curious
[10:01] <chrisccoulson> i suspect that most users don't leave the machine whilst they're upgrading. still, it'd be nice if it worked correctly
[10:01]  * chrisccoulson tries to understand how gnome-screensaver works
[10:03] <chrisccoulson> i just noticed we're trying to start gnome-screensaver twice in karmic
[10:03] <seb128> how so?
[10:04] <chrisccoulson> gnome-screensaver ships an autostart file now, so is being started directly from gnome-session. but the gnome-settings-daemon plugin also tries to start it
[10:04] <seb128> the autostart and gsd?
[10:04] <seb128> they dropped the gsd code in git
[10:04] <chrisccoulson> the screensaver plugin has gone from g-s-d in git though, it seems
[10:04] <seb128> so it will be fixed next week
[10:34] <mvo> the guest session is currently not working for me, is that a know issue?
[10:34] <mvo> hey glatzor
[10:35] <glatzor> hey mvo !
[10:47] <seb128> mvo, wfm
[10:56] <seb128> mvo, how do I trigger the "do you want to reboot now" dialog?
[10:56] <seb128> mvo, sudo touch /var/run/reboot-required doesn't do the trick
[10:58] <glatzor> mvo, I replaced the multiprocessing/threaded debconf module by one using gobject_io_add_watch
[10:58] <glatzor> mvo, I plan to even use this in the daemon itself
[11:03] <mvo> glatzor: nice - in the daemon? how so?
[11:03] <mvo> seb128: do a additional touch /var/lib/update-notifier/dpkg-run-stamp
[11:04] <mvo> glatzor: hm, I see. nice idea
[11:04] <seb128> mvo, that did it thank you!
[11:04] <seb128> brb
[11:13] <seb128> mvo, that works only once?
[11:13] <mvo> seb128: yes, once per session
[11:13] <mvo> seb128: design team asked for it this way
[11:14] <seb128> mvo, any way to workaround that for testing?
[11:14] <seb128> mvo, I agree with that for normal use ;-)
[11:14] <mvo> seb128: well, just kill update-notifier
[11:14] <mvo> and run it again
[11:14] <seb128> mvo, but I want to test my libglade changes
[11:14] <seb128> mvo, ok thanks
[11:14] <mvo> sorry
[11:14] <mvo> I can make you a custom version after lunch
[11:15] <seb128> mvo, so restart is good enough I was just wondering if there was a secret hacker way to show the dialog every time ;-)
[11:15] <seb128> mvo, restart u-n is easy enough
[11:16] <Ampelbein> hi there. bug 385088, robert states that gucharmap2-dev is obsolete. But I don't think that's correct. Am I wrong? The real reason for the ftbfs is a change in gdl.
[11:18] <glatzor> mvo, I merged my changes. python-apt seems to be not very thread safe
[11:19] <glatzor> I could not figure out why the worker thread of the daemon consumes all cpu power after the changes have been applied
[11:33] <seb128> Ampelbein, when he opened the bug we were not using the new naming yet so the bug was right, that changed since
[11:34] <Ampelbein> seb128: ah, ok. i've uploaded a fix to the FTBFS with the upstream patch included.
[11:34] <seb128> cool
[11:41] <Laney> can someone do the intrepid and dapper pidgin fixes?
[11:41] <Laney> the Hardy one isn't so easy, will take some time
[11:43] <seb128> Laney, did you work on the jaunty one?
[11:43] <seb128> Laney, why isn't it easy for hardy?
[11:44] <Laney> seb128: the code has changed, doesn't apply, needs more in depth investigation
[11:44] <Laney> i already attached the jaunty debdiff
[11:44] <Laney> intrepid is probably quite easy from that but I don't have time for it
[11:46] <seb128> Laney, intrepid is not important imho, jaunty is much better no reason to stay on intrepid
[11:46] <seb128> Laney, for hardy I would look to what other distros do
[11:46] <Laney> ok well I'll probably not do it
[11:46] <Laney> if someone else wants to they can
[11:46] <seb128> thanks for the jaunty work I will sponsor that after lunch
[11:46]  * Laney unassigns
[12:42] <didrocks> mvo: seems that you updated planner without searching for bug waiting for sponsoring :( (cf bug #391530)
[13:00] <enterneo_> I am trying to install 9.04 64bit on EXT4, but ubiquity is crashing at 94% (when installing grub), any help?
[13:02] <mvo> didrocks: oh, sorry
[13:04] <didrocks> mvo: no pb, just think to check http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/versions.html if possible :) (clicking on the little (+) ;)
[13:05] <mvo> didrocks: I thought I did check the sponsoring queue before, but I must have overlooked it
[13:05] <didrocks> mvo: no problem. I will live with it ;)
[13:05]  * mvo hugs didrocks
[13:05]  * didrocks hugs mvo back
[13:15] <pitti> asac: hm, just rebooted, and when I do "firefox" it just exits immediately again (no processes running already)
[13:15] <pitti> how can I debug this?
[13:19] <asac> pitti: do you see something in .xsession-errors ?
[13:21] <asac_> seems that these became more frequently recently: http://paste.ubuntu.com/204136/
[13:22] <pitti> asac_: hm, seems I had a really bad boot; I couldn't ssh to my server (other ports worked), and firefox broke
[13:23] <pitti> now I rebooted again, with the wifi killswitch on, and it works
[13:23] <pitti> perhaps the wifi and eth connection at the same time messed things up
[13:23] <asac_> pitti: oh. so maybe you didnt have a lo iface up?
[13:23] <pitti> no time to investigate now
[13:23] <pitti> oh, don't know any more
[13:23] <asac_> ok
[13:23] <asac_> no problem ;)
[13:29] <pmatulis> cjwatson: is it possible to preserve an encrypted LVM config (from 8.04)?  i would like to do a fresh install of 9.04.  the installer doesn't appear to recognize what is currently there
[13:33] <pitti> pmatulis: only with the alternate CD, I'm afraid
[13:33] <pmatulis> pitti: yes, using it
[13:33] <pitti> pmatulis: alternatively, you can install cryptsetup and mdadm in the live system, mount the partition manually, and then start ubiquity
[13:34] <pitti> pmatulis: hm, try to press esc to go to the main menu and select "load modules" -> LVM perhaps?
[13:34] <pmatulis> pitti: will try
[13:40] <seb128> re
[13:40] <seb128> mvo, still there?
[13:41] <pitti> seb128: who works on gwibber ATM? I'd like to give bug 387042 an assignee
[13:41] <pitti> kenvandine: ^
[13:41] <seb128> pitti, kenvandine or asac I would say
[13:41] <kenvandine> i can take it
[13:42] <pitti> thanks
[13:42] <asac> seb128: we will upload a new snapshot that seems to work
[13:42] <kenvandine> asac: of gwibber?
[13:43] <asac> kenvandine: if you have other ideas ;)
[13:43] <kenvandine> maybe you should take it then :)
[13:43] <asac> its completely broken atm
[13:43] <asac> crashes if you send something
[13:43] <asac> fta is on it
[13:43] <mvo> seb128: yes
[13:43] <kenvandine> trunk works i know
[13:43] <asac> last three uploads where done without committing to bzr branch
[13:43] <kenvandine> eww
[13:43] <asac> ;)
[13:44] <kenvandine> asac: you want to take it then?
[13:44] <asac> anyway. so later today there should be new head snapshot
[13:44] <asac> kenvandine: i assign it to fta ... i talked to him about it a few horus ago
[13:44] <kenvandine> ok
[13:44] <kenvandine> great
[13:44] <kenvandine> thx
[13:48] <pedro__> kenvandine, jcastro could you have a quick review to the hug day page for butterfly? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090630
[13:51] <pitti> seb128: would you mind binary-NEWing policykit-1?
[13:51] <seb128> pitti, looking
[13:51] <pitti> seb128: to main, please
[13:51] <pitti> (it's just a new upstream version of policykit)
[13:51] <seb128> new crack! ;-)
[13:51] <pitti> (ugh)
[13:52]  * pitti moves source to main
[13:52] <seb128> new devicekit-disks following?
[13:52] <pitti> so that -gnome can build
[13:52] <pitti> seb128: yes, I'll upload all the new crack from desktop PPA
[13:53] <pitti> this will finally fix the "polls floppy drive constantly" bug
[13:54] <kenvandine> pedro_, looking
[13:54] <seb128> pitti, and we can update gvfs ;-)
[13:54] <pitti> yeah
[13:54] <pedro_> kenvandine: if i missed something please add it to the page
[13:55] <kenvandine> sure
[14:00] <seb128> pitti, binaries newed now
[14:17] <pitti> seb128: 3 minutes to publisher :)
[14:17] <pitti> seb128: I uploaded the new crack now, it should properly depwait
[14:17] <pitti> seb128: merci beaucoup!
[14:17]  * pitti cleans ubuntu-desktop PPA
[14:17] <pitti> seb128: I'll try gdm-new again now
[14:17] <pitti> hmm, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/20090626/
[14:17] <pitti> I _fixed_ them yesterday, now they don't build at all?
[14:17]  * pitti starts a new build
[14:17] <pitti> seb128: new gdm behaves a bit weird on the live system for me (when logging in, it complains about not being able to save the greeter in the session), but otherwise it works
[14:17]  * pitti tries on his installed system
[14:17] <pitti> I wouldn't upload it on a Friday, but perhaps on Monday?
[14:18] <seb128> pitti, I got the same weird warning
[14:18] <seb128> pitti, yeah better to break the world after the weekend when people are there to fix issues ;-)
[14:24] <andreasn> mpt, hi! I got reminded about the screen+webcam recording software when I read a blog by Gerv the other day: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/gerv/archives/2009/06/improving_free_software_usability.html
[14:24] <andreasn> and I noticed that ivanka posted a comment on my blog that you would try it out in the UI testings at Canonical. Did you ever get to make use of it?
[14:24] <pitti> seb128: and the known "locks screen after upgrade" issue
[14:24] <pitti> seb128: no d-bus issue any more
[14:25] <seb128> pitti, ok good
[14:25] <seb128> pitti, I don't have a "locks screen after upgrade" issue though
[14:25] <mpt> andreasn, iirc we tried it but it slowed down the machine too much
[14:25] <seb128> or is that "try to autologing the same user again"?
[14:25] <pitti> when I upgrade from current to new gdm, my session gets locked and I see the greeter
[14:25] <pitti> and I have to click on my name/enter password
[14:26] <pitti> seb128: so the biggest issue that I have is that gdm now runs g-power-m
[14:26] <mpt> andreasn, what I'm doing at the moment is setting up a panel launcher for "recordmydesktop --on-the-fly-encoding -fps 5 -o /home/test/.testing/out.ogv", and then trying to remember to click the launcher as soon as the test subject logs in
[14:26] <seb128> pitte: there is an upgrade issue which I don't know how we can solve cleanly
[14:26] <seb128> pitti, ^
[14:26] <pitti> seb128: and thus http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=585228 hits with full force
[14:26] <mpt> andreasn, (the same command doesn't work as a Startup Program for some reason)
[14:26] <pitti> seb128: well, I'm not too concerned about the screen locking
[14:27] <andreasn> mpt, do you record keypresses, mouse movement and camera as well?
[14:27] <pitti> seb128: wb
[14:27] <seb128> hum, wrong click
[14:27] <seb128> pitti, the issue is that you can't restart gdm while sessions are running because that would close those
[14:27] <seb128> pitti, but the greeter will not work until restart
[14:27] <mpt> andreasn, no. Mouse movement we get for free because recordmydesktop shows the mouse pointer. :-) But we don't do anything special for the other two. Would be nice, though.
[14:27] <seb128> pitti, so if you close a session you get a "greeter not working" error
[14:27] <seb128> pitti, I'm not sure which way we have around that
[14:28] <pitti> seb128: and thus http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=585228 hits with full force
[14:28] <pitti> seb128: in my local session I worked around that in gconf
[14:28] <pitti> right
[14:28] <pitti> seb128: ideally we could defer restarting until the next session closes or switches, but I realize that's hard to do
[14:28] <pitti> seb128: but this is an one-time inconvenience, I wouldn't worry about it too much
[14:29] <pitti> the "immediately suspends" is nasty, though
[14:29] <seb128> pitti, well if you have multi user logged you have no real way around it
[14:29] <seb128> pitti, right...
[14:30] <pitti> seb128: I can look into #585228
[14:30] <seb128> bug #585228
[14:30] <pitti> do you think you can figure out the odd session thing?
[14:30] <pitti> seb128: see above, gnome bug 585228
[14:31] <seb128> right
[14:31] <seb128> pitti, yes I can have a look to that one
[14:31] <pitti> ok, then I'll deal with g-p-m
[14:31] <seb128> I need also to have a look to autologin kick in on logout
[14:31] <pitti> this is hugely annoying, especially with broken suspend
[14:31] <seb128> it if you have autologin there is no way to go back to the login screen
[14:31] <seb128> out of selecting switch user
[14:31] <pitti> no timed login?
[14:32] <seb128> well autologin kick in after logout again
[14:32] <seb128> so when you log out you are logged in again immediatly
[14:32] <seb128> where it should be timed login yes
[14:32] <pitti> seb128: perhaps autologin should be treated as "timed login" after you just logged out?
[14:32] <pitti> and just "immediate" for first login at gdm startup?
[14:32] <seb128> that's what it used to do
[14:32] <seb128> I think that's just a bug
[14:32] <seb128> but would be nice to get it fixed before upload
[14:32] <pitti> after three releases I'd have thought it would be a little more polished..
[14:33] <pitti> seb128: s/upload/karmic beta/ (my gut feeling)
[14:33] <seb128> it didn't get a lot of work since they landed it
[14:33] <mclasen> if everybody waits for the others to do the polishing, it doesn't happen...
[14:33] <seb128> pitti, right
[14:33] <seb128> mclasen, well, the issue is that GNOME accepts not ready softwares ...
[14:34] <seb128> if it didn't get accepted people would have made it acceptable to get it accepted
[14:34] <mclasen> no
[14:34] <mclasen> but we don't need to discuss that here
[14:34] <seb128> too many accept* in the same line ;-)
[14:34] <mclasen> what people do you think would do the polishing before acceptance then ?
[14:34] <seb128> mclasen, well GNOME is in a situation now where half of distro don't use the current codebase and nobody is working on making it better either
[14:34] <pitti> seb128: user switching works fine here, at least
[14:35] <pitti> mclasen: from my pov it seems to work well with most components, but gdm was really exceptionally bad
[14:35] <seb128> mclasen, well if a new software is not ready or better than what we have why should it be accepted
[14:35] <pitti> not having half of the features, and very buggy
[14:35] <mclasen> patches always accepted...
[14:36] <seb128> that's an orthogonal issue
[14:36] <seb128> GNOME as a project should not accept half ready rewrites
[14:36] <seb128> we should aim at quality parity before switching
[14:36] <seb128> otherwise users are loosing for no good reason
[14:36] <seb128> anyway as you said that has already been discussed
[14:43] <slomo> mclasen: just curious but do you know when tim janik will have some time to look at gobject patches again or if someone else can review them? ;)
[14:44] <mclasen> slomo: I don't know the answer to the first question, and I tried to raise the second on the list a few times already
[14:46] <slomo> mclasen: good, what was the subject of those mails? or the result of the discussion if any? :)
[14:47] <mclasen> the last time I said something was here:http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2009-June/msg00110.html
[14:47] <mclasen> no discussion :-(
[14:49] <slomo> what would be the requirements for such a person? (no, not me, i'm too busy anyway :) )
[14:50] <mclasen> I don't have a job description at hand...
[15:12] <rodrigo_> what version of evo/e-d-s is in karmic? my package build is failing and not sure why -> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/28414808/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-lpia.evolution-couchdb_0.1.1-5_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[15:13] <rodrigo_> it builds fine with git version
[15:14] <rodrigo_> rmadison says 2.27.3, which should be fine :(
[15:15] <rodrigo_> hey pedro_, will get the 2 books for you 'to full milk' :D
[15:16] <pitti> seb128: would you mind binary-NEWing policykit-1-gnome?
[15:16] <pitti> (should be trivial)
[15:16] <pedro_> rodrigo_: haha! thanks you pal, with some friends we're translating some chilean words to fromlostiano :-P
[15:17] <rodrigo_> haha
[15:17] <rodrigo_> pedro_: oh, see, there are other versions -> http://casadellibro.com/busquedas/quickResults?tbusq=c&buscar=from+lost+to+the+river&in=0&lang=es_ES
[15:17] <seb128> pitti, looking
[15:17] <seb128> rodrigo_, 2.27.3
[15:17] <rodrigo_> like 'speaking in silver' and 'shit yourself little parrot' :D
[15:18] <rodrigo_> seb128: can you have a look at the build log I pasted?
[15:18] <rodrigo_> seb128: I'd say it's some libtool weirdness, but not sure
[15:18] <pedro_> rodrigo_: lol!
[15:19] <seb128> rodrigo_, right I was going to say that
[15:20] <seb128> "only absolute run-paths are allowed"
[15:20] <seb128> weird error
[15:20] <rodrigo_> yeah
[15:20] <rickspencer3> props to pitti for reclaiming cd space from the gnome-help files!
[15:20] <seb128> documentation is in language packs now?
[15:21] <seb128> pitti, \o/
[15:22] <rickspencer3> seb128: not quite yet, but looks likely for Karmic
[15:22] <seb128> excellent!
[15:22] <seb128> the soyuz part is going to happen?
[15:22] <seb128> or do we workaround that by some way?
[15:23] <seb128> pitti, policykit-1-gnome binariesnewed
[15:24] <pitti> seb128: you rock
[15:24] <seb128> you too ;-)
[15:24] <pitti> seb128: not yet
[15:24]  * seb128 hugs pitti
[15:25] <pitti> seb128: I discussed the soyuz bits with Julian yesterday evening, and it's on the way now
[15:25] <seb128> excellent
[15:25] <seb128> maybe we will be able to have karmic CDs ;-)
[15:25] <pitti> then we should have plenty of space for some langpacks and new crack
[15:25] <pitti> seb128: speaking of which...
[15:25] <seb128> I was starting to wonder how we would manage that will all the new frameworks added
[15:25] <pitti> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/20090626.2/
[15:25] <pitti> meh!
[15:26] <seb128> no CD!
[15:39] <dobey> pitti, seb128: hey! is there a formal request policy for removing stuff from the CD?
[15:40] <pitti> dobey: not really, just say it to someone who can fiddle with the seeds
[15:41] <dobey> pitti: nautilus-share seems like something we should drop from the default install.... by default, it doesn't even work :)
[15:41] <pitti> seb128: ^
[15:41] <seb128> why shouldn't it work?
[15:42] <seb128> smb sharing is something many users in lan with microsoft os want to use
[15:47] <artir> and then how do I share Stuff over the LAN?
[15:53] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: pitti: http://piware.de/tmp/desktopteam-burndown-karmic.png - looks very brutal now
[15:53] <pitti> we almost hit the 300 mark :)
[15:53] <kenvandine> yeah... all those new work items
[15:53] <rickspencer3> :)
[15:54] <rickspencer3> I wonder if we should move the trend to start at 300?
[15:55] <pitti> done
[15:55] <pitti> like that better?
[15:56] <pitti> heh, we are over 300 now
[15:56] <pitti> I added two more WIs to automagic python build
[16:00] <rickspencer3> hehe
[16:00]  * hyperair smells nautilus-share
[16:01] <hyperair> dobey: what's up with nautilus-share?
[16:03] <dobey> hyperair: it doesn't work?
[16:03] <hyperair> dobey: that's very vague. could you be clearer, please?
[16:04] <dobey> hyperair: it always only ever tells me that i need to enable some magical thing as root (i don't recall exactly and it's one of the first things i always uninstall, so i don't have it available on this system right now)
[16:05] <hyperair> dobey: then that's your fault for removing a required component.
[16:05] <dobey> it's also not very generic
[16:05] <hyperair> it's not that "nautilus-share doesn't work", it's that *you* broke it
[16:05] <dobey> i didn't break it
[16:05] <dobey> i removed it because it doesn't work
[16:05] <hyperair> ah
[16:06] <hyperair> well it tells you that you need to install the sharing service
[16:06] <hyperair> aka samba
[16:06] <hyperair> so why didn't you?
[16:06] <dobey> it might be installed on my new laptop still (as i just installed it)
[16:06] <dobey> why do i have UI by default that requires me to install extra stuff to make work?
[16:07] <hyperair> if i'm not mistaken, samba is fat and couldn't fit on the CD
[16:07] <hyperair> or something
[16:07] <pitti> it's much easier to get it working with that single click than to leave the user in the dark how to share his directories, IMHO
[16:07] <seb128> because we don't want to have samba running by default but we still want it to be easy to use for users
[16:07] <dobey> and why do i have to use samba?
[16:07] <pitti> hyperair: that, and we don't want to open ports by default
[16:07] <dobey> why can't i share with webdav, or some other means?
[16:07] <seb128> you don't "have to"
[16:07] <hyperair> ah i se
[16:07] <pitti> dobey: that's an implementation detail
[16:07] <seb128> but many users are in microsoft lans and need it
[16:07]  * hyperair personally uses samba sharing =\
[16:08] <dobey> pitti: it's a pretty awful one, because having N "share" items in the nautilus menu is not good design :)
[16:08] <seb128> because win* don't list webdav shares in their explorer
[16:08] <pitti> dobey: if only we had an easy thing by default to share files with :-P
[16:08] <hyperair> dobey: N?
[16:08] <pitti> dobey: that's a feature; if it would work as well as u1, that would be bad marketing
[16:08] <dobey> hyperair: well obviously i'm going to have to install something else to share via webdav, so it's going to add another menu item
[16:08] <hyperair> i don't believe i've seen "share" items in the nautilus menu =\
[16:08] <hyperair> oh
[16:08] <hyperair> right
[16:08] <hyperair> that's a bug in nautilus-share then.
[16:09] <seb128> or in gnome-user-share for not having a smb option
[16:09] <hyperair> basically saying that nautilus-share should support sharing via more than one protocol =\
[16:09] <dobey> and in ubuntu one, we have a "share on ubuntu one" menu item (albeit only in certain folders for now)
[16:09] <seb128> smb is the industry standard
[16:09] <dobey> seb128: so is windows, so why do people install ubuntu? :)
[16:09] <seb128> there is quite some users relying on that
[16:09] <hyperair> smb is pretty much the most convenient method of sharing now =\
[16:09] <hyperair> even in ubuntu.
[16:10] <pitti> hyperair: ... yet :)
[16:10] <hyperair> webdav requires apache, which imo is meant more as a web server than a file server
[16:10] <seb128> interoperability is a win
[16:10] <seb128> if you don't have that some people would not be able to use ubuntu at work
[16:10] <hyperair> pitti: you mean up til now ;)
[16:10] <dobey> webdav doesn't require apache
[16:10] <pitti> it does
[16:10] <hyperair> oh? doesn't it?
[16:10] <pitti> well, the current GNOME implementation
[16:10] <seb128> they would have to run something which allow them to work with their coworkers
[16:10] <dobey> no it doesn't. it requires a program which serves DAV over an HTTP connection. it doesn't have to be apache
[16:11] <pitti> (gnome-user-share)
[16:11] <dobey> gnome-user-share requires apache
[16:11] <hyperair> right
[16:11] <hyperair> and that was what i was referring to
[16:11] <pitti> Depends: libapache2-mod-dnssd
[16:11] <dobey> epittance doesn't require apache (but admittedly, i haven't touched the code in years)
[16:11] <seb128> well still that doesn't resolve the interoperability issue
[16:11] <pitti> sorry, Depends: apache2
[16:11] <hyperair> do you have any better method of sharing using webdav that doesn't require apache, yet is user friendly?
[16:11] <seb128> some ubuntu users need to be able to work with their coworkers not using linux
[16:11] <seb128> or they would not be able to user linux
[16:11] <seb128> use
[16:11] <dobey> seb128: i don't disagree, but that's an implementation detail.
[16:12] <seb128> it's not
[16:12] <dobey> seb128: also, windows handles webdav shares now as well
[16:12] <seb128> not in a obvious way
[16:12] <dobey> seb128: it is, because the UI, and the backend, should be separable.
[16:12] <seb128> you can browse those from the explorer
[16:12] <dobey> the UI shouldn't tie you to a specific protocol
[16:12] <seb128> right
[16:12] <seb128> but suggesting to drop what we have for nothing else is not constructive comment
[16:13] <seb128> what do you suggest to use instead?
[16:13] <dobey> it's not dropping it for nothing else, when the default install doesn't have the backend installed and running, is it?
[16:14] <hyperair> yes you are.
[16:14] <seb128> the default install is one click away of getting that working
[16:14] <dobey> it's sort of like having nautilus by default, and having it tell you to install gvfs-backends to be able to browse your files
[16:14] <seb128> ie it's obvious to have users to set a share
[16:14] <seb128> what do we win by dropping it?
[16:14] <dobey> disk space, so we can fit ubuntu one on the cd? :)
[16:14] <seb128> to have users filing bugs about ubuntu not being able to do smb share at all because they will never figure what they need to do?
[16:14] <hyperair> dobey: nautilus-share is TINY
[16:15] <seb128> I stop this discussion now I'm not interested in trolling
[16:15] <seb128> nautilus-share is not what create CD space issues
[16:15] <seb128> and asking to drop it without having suggestions about what else to do doesn't server our users
[16:15] <pitti> 30 KB
[16:15] <pitti> sorry, kB
[16:16] <hyperair> see what i mean
[16:16] <hyperair> tiny
[16:16] <dobey> no, CDs are what create CD space issues. but i'm pretty sure we're not going to drop gimp, or openoffice, or anything obviously huge, anytime soon, either
[16:16] <seb128> better to drop gimp than nautilus-share
[16:16] <hyperair> indeed
[16:16] <dobey> ok, let's drop gimp then
[16:16] <pitti> dobey: that's indeed plan B
[16:17] <hyperair> what's plan A?
[16:17] <seb128> that has been decided some weeks ago during desktop team meeting
[16:17] <seb128> getting space
[16:17] <artir> better make ubuntu default media a pendrive
[16:17] <dobey> i only ever use it to take screenshots really anyway :)
[16:17] <seb128> if we don't have space gimp is the first we will move out of the default install
[16:17] <hyperair> you use gimp to take screenshots?
[16:17] <pitti> dobey: plan A is bug 123020
[16:18] <dobey> seb128: ok, i wasn't aware of that.
[16:19] <dobey> pitti: cool. yeah, documentation is large (and largely unused anyway) :)
[16:19] <dobey> pitti: i hope that bug gets fixed in time then :)
[16:19] <pitti> dobey: we made some pressure, and it's underway now
[16:19] <pitti> this should give us a couple of MB (assuming that we actually put back some langpacks, which is a non-negotiable item anyway)
[16:20] <pitti> so, enough to fit the U1/couchdb/etc.
[16:20] <seb128> and webkit clutter telepathy? ;-)
[16:20] <artir> and don't u have considered switching to 1 gb pendrives?
[16:20] <pitti> *sigh* yes
[16:20] <pitti> artir: considered, yes, but not decided to (just yet)
[16:20] <seb128> usb keys are expensive compared to cds
[16:20] <artir> those 300 extra Mb would be very useful :)
[16:21] <artir> well, but usb keys can be reutilized
[16:21] <seb128> well shipit doesn't consider that
[16:21] <seb128> they send free cds to people
[16:21] <artir> true
[16:21] <pitti> and the extra mirror space and testing capacity are currently the most limiting factors
[16:21] <seb128> I don't think they will send free usb keys
[16:21] <artir> neither do I
[16:21] <seb128> or people will abuse it to get usb keys, that would not work
[16:21] <pitti> also, the 700 MB limit actually forces us to keep a slim and small and well-designed system
[16:21] <pitti> which is a pretty high value, too
[16:21] <artir> true
[16:22] <dobey> seb128: too bad we can't switch them to "locked" mode, and remove the switch, like they did with AOL disks :)
[16:22] <artir> i've always wondered how does the whole OS fits in a CD while windows or mac needs a dvd
[16:22] <pitti> artir: and windows doesn't even come with all those apps :)
[16:22] <hyperair> because they're bloated and we're lean?
[16:22] <pitti> not even to mention a live system
[16:22] <artir> I think is because ubuntu just ships 1 copy of each library
[16:23] <artir> instead of every program to have a copy of its own
[16:23]  * artir looks at the fat Mac applications
[16:23] <pitti> we try to, anyway; we do have some duplication which we periodically try to get rid of
[16:23] <dobey> windows ships libraries and crap so that even windows 3.x programs will run on vista
[16:24] <hyperair> but they can't even ship enough drivers for vista eh
[16:24] <artir> that's another point for Ubuntu
[16:24] <artir> it seems it has almost all the drivers u need in a CD
[16:24] <artir> installing windows is far more difficult
[16:24] <hyperair> it has every free driver you can find
[16:24] <hyperair> well everything that's in the kernel anyway
[16:25] <dobey> hyperair: they don't need to ship drivers, because OEMs ship them
[16:25] <artir> unless u make a custom computer
[16:25] <dobey> there are plenty pieces of hardware i have sitting right here, that don't work in ubuntu either
[16:25] <artir> like most people I know do
[17:12] <pitti> seb128: new dk-disks finally built, g-d-u in depwait for its publishing; so feel free to upload gvfs
[17:12] <seb128> pitti, ok excellent
[17:43]  * hyperair wonders if anybody else gets a blank white screen with gwibber =\
[17:53] <Laney> hyperair: yeah, try the daily ppa
[17:53] <hyperair> oh there's a daily ppa eh
[17:53] <Laney> all the cool projects have one
[17:57] <hyperair> heh
[18:11] <Laney> I wonder if Ubuntu is as impenetrable as all other distros
[18:12] <Laney> trying to find out who's backported the pidgin update and struggling to find changelogs
[18:17] <Laney> bah
[18:17]  * Laney mans up
[18:43] <pitti> good night everyone
[18:43] <pitti> LinuxTag tomorrow \o/
[18:43] <kenvandine> good night pitti