[00:05] <ScottK> nixternal: Currently the differences in the desktop/netbook seeds are extremely minimal.  My effort so has been focused on getting the infrastructure bits in place for a second Kubuntu flavor.
[00:05] <yuriy> anyone know what valid characters are in *nix usernames?
[00:05] <nixternal> groovy, my netbook should be here this week so we will get to hacking on that....
[00:05] <yuriy> I can't find anything definitive and so far only found conflicting info
[00:07] <yuriy> nixternal: do you know about installing docs with cmake? I did kde4_create_handbook and then install index.docbook and index.cache.bz2 to ${HTML_INSTALL_DIR}/en/userconfig but i'm not sure if that's right, seems like there should be a macro
[00:07] <ScottK> nixternal: The next big step for netbook is Tonio's default settings.  He's promised it soon.
[00:07] <nixternal> there is a macro but that is called  by the master cmake file
[00:08] <nixternal> I need to head out, so I will chat with you later on it if you don't get it before then
[00:29] <seele> Riddell: ah, right.
[00:29] <seele> hmm.. is there an easy way to query svn logs without having to use a commandline tool?
[02:14] <neversfelde> ScottK: whats the status of bug #384615. The archive admins are not subscribed. although there is an ack?
[02:48] <shtylman> yuriy: user name validation? like valid character? I imagine it just uses whatever d-i does
[03:48] <ScottK> neversfelde: Fixed.  Sorry about that.
[05:25] <lex79> Riddell: kdevplatform and kdevelop  https://edge.launchpad.net/~alessandro-ghersi/+archive/staging
[09:33] <Lure> Riddell: I am wondering if digikam should be just moved to universe, due to more and more dependancies...
[09:34] <Lure> Riddell: not sure what is the benefit of having it in main, since we will probably never have it on cd by default, as gwenview is much better for general public anyhow
[09:35] <tseliot> agateau: ping
[09:36] <agateau> tseliot: pong
[09:36] <tseliot> agateau: will notify-osd-kde be ready for karmic?
[09:37] <agateau> tseliot: there will probably be something a bit different
[09:37] <agateau> tseliot: we are working at making KDE use the Galago spec
[09:37] <agateau> so that notifications are shared between GNOME and KDE
[09:37] <tseliot> yes, that's why I was asking
[09:38] <agateau> and there will be some Plasma patches to provide a more notify-osd-like experience for action-less notifications
[09:38] <agateau> I want to get this done for karmic
[09:39] <tseliot> agateau: ok, great. Thanks
[10:38] <jussi01> Hrm, anyone know why ubuntu picks up the iphones photo folder by default and kubuntu doesnt?
[10:48] <\sh> lifeless: /window 10
[10:48] <\sh> grmpf
[10:49] <jussi01> \sh: :D
[10:49] <\sh> the heat the heat
[10:50] <jussi01> \sh: right... :P
[10:51] <\sh> cpu overheating no real functionality anymore..please drink more water and eat more ice ;)
[12:27] <Riddell> kwwii: ready for tonight?
[12:29] <Riddell> Lure: what's needed for digikam?  just liblpr or something else too?
[12:40] <[ifr0g]> Any Idea how can i access this channel over the web. cause i wont be at home during KTD
[12:40] <[ifr0g]> Port 80 that is.
[12:45] <Riddell> you'd need to tunnel somehow to your own server
[12:49] <Lure> Riddell: currently that is it, but we have at least one MIR per cycle, and some are hard (currently we still do not have red eye removal in kipi-plugins due to opencv staying in universe)
[12:50] <Lure> Riddell: isnt' there a plan to reduce the need for main for kubuntu, similar to xubuntu and edubuntu?
[12:50] <Riddell> there's archive re-org  where we'll have packages which are designated as  kubuntu packages
[12:50] <Riddell> I expect they'll still need  a MIR though
[12:51] <Lure> Riddell: because of official Canonical support? is MIR there for Canonical or for general Ubuntu community
[12:51] <Lure> Riddell: don't get me wrong - I like MIR in general as it helps upstream to improve, but the question is if we should drop features just because of it
[12:52] <Riddell> it's for the security and support teams
[13:01] <jussi01> [ifr0g]: freenode has a webchat thingy
[13:03] <jussi01> [ifr0g]: ie. http://webchat.freenode.net/
[13:04] <Riddell> really?
[13:04] <Riddell> lex79: goodbye to kdevelop 3 then?
[13:04] <lex79> yes :)
[13:05] <Riddell> lex79: recon upstream are happy with that?
[13:05] <Riddell> do we know if they expect to release for karmic?
[13:05] <lex79> dunno Riddell
[13:06] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: we already said goodbye to kdevelop 3 last beta :P
[13:06] <freinhard> lex79: saw you did some kdepim packaging. maybe you can find out why ktimetracker_plugin.desktop from kontact/plugins/ does not get installed.
[13:06] <lex79> JontheEchidna: true :)
[13:07] <freinhard> lex79: (or even built)
[13:07] <Riddell> so we did
[13:08] <lex79> freeflying: ok, I will see or JontheEchidna can see :P
[13:09]  * freinhard should rename himself to fr1einhard
[13:10] <lex79> ops :)
[13:10] <Riddell> lex79: kdevelop uploaded, thanks for that
[13:10] <lex79> you're welcome
[13:10] <lex79> JontheEchidna: new qtcurve upstream release lol
[13:11] <neversfelde> release fast, release often^^
[13:12] <lex79> too fast
[13:22] <[ifroog]> Thanks <jussi01> I like this webchat !
[13:24] <[ifr0g]> :o
[13:26] <[ifr0g]> Does not work on my mobile =(
[13:27] <seele> does someone want to work on this really easy papercut? bug 389747
[13:28] <seele> i guess it is just changing the panel and committing it
[13:41] <Riddell> seele: hmm, maybe  I'll  use that  in  my tutorial this evening
[13:41] <seele> Riddell: good i'll assign it to you :)
[13:49] <DreadKnight> yeah, show desktop is way better
[13:49] <DreadKnight> would be cool to be able to set up show desktop to reveal your desktop when hovering over it
[13:49] <DreadKnight> so you can see images, time and other plasmoids...
[13:49] <DreadKnight> like you hover over the task manager and see that window..
[13:50] <DreadKnight> i might write that on the kde forums
[13:51] <DreadKnight> would be really neat to preview desktop without clicking anything or pressing any key
[13:55] <kwwii> Riddell: I am as ready as I will ever be
[13:55] <Riddell> excellent  :)
[13:58]  * Riddell moves arora to main and sets it as  default
[14:00] <ScottK> Riddell: Did you seed it for netbook too?
[14:00] <Riddell> ScottK: no, can do if that's what we want
[14:00] <ScottK> Riddell: It is.
[14:01] <Riddell> ScottK: do we want  konqueror on  netbook then?
[14:01] <Riddell> there's no precedent to get in the way there
[14:01] <ScottK> Riddell: I think it doesn't hurt to leave it (for now) as we aren't space constrained to CD size.
[14:01] <DreadKnight> Riddell: yey, arora ftw!
[14:02] <DreadKnight> 2 browsers only confuse people
[14:02] <DreadKnight> and i can't take konqueror seriously anymore
[14:02]  * DreadKnight uses google docs all the time.
[14:03] <ScottK> Probably.  I use it a lot myself though.
[14:03] <DreadKnight> konqueror has no place in kde since dolphin was included
[14:03]  * ScottK is not a Dolphin fan
[14:03] <DreadKnight> dolphin is one of the best file managers and best kde apps
[14:04] <DreadKnight> konqueror is bloatware now, doing a lot of things and doing them all badly
[14:05] <jussi01> DreadKnight: no, it does do a lot of things well...
[14:05] <DreadKnight> for papercut, making the video players worthy would be nice.. i wonder why i can't use left click to scroll around...
[14:05] <ScottK> seele: I have a usability thought I'd like to discuss with you when you have a moment.
[14:05] <DreadKnight> jussi01: it doesn't shows most websites properly, as firefox does, so it's crap for me and damn annoying for non geeks like my parents
[14:07] <DreadKnight> kde needs a nice and simple to use web browser, not a crappy swiss-army knife tool
[14:07] <ScottK> That's why we're giving Arora a shot.
[14:07] <DreadKnight> oh well, enough about that; am i the only one who is not able to scroll videos in most kde players using left click?
[14:07] <e-jat> agreed with DreadKnight
[14:08] <e-jat> ScottK : arora also r0x
[14:08] <DreadKnight> it's like this for me for ages..
[14:08] <DreadKnight> dragon player crap, kaffeine... even vlc maybe
[14:08] <DreadKnight> i click to a location and it doesn't jumps there
[14:08] <DreadKnight> i don't want to drag that 'slider' over to that location
[14:09] <DreadKnight> and on tablet pc stylus i don't have middle click to do that
[14:09] <Tm_T> I am one of those users who cannot use other browsers than Konqueror, just because it is more than just simple
[14:09] <Tm_T> DreadKnight: unless you bind it some way and/or have smart stylus
[14:09] <DreadKnight> Tm_T: sudo apt-get install konqueror then mr. geek
[14:10] <Tm_T> DreadKnight: won't do that, I use "makekde" (:
[14:10] <DreadKnight> xD
[14:10] <Tm_T> and no, I'm not geek, sowwy
[14:10] <DreadKnight> you're even more of a geek than I anticipated it seems
[14:10] <DreadKnight> :D
[14:11] <Tm_T> I'm fearless, did commit to kdebase (:
[14:11] <Tm_T> a huge one it was indeed, erm
[14:11]  * JontheEchidna is still too scared to do much more than krazy commits, small fixes, or fixes to his own code
[14:12] <Tm_T> JontheEchidna: well, I changed one 3 back to 2 as it was
[14:12] <Tm_T> just to stop "malloc: using debugging hooks" flood in my Konsole
[14:13] <ScottK> DreadKnight: Kaffeine is default again in Karmic
[14:13] <JontheEchidna> should have changed the string to malloc: can haz debugging hooks
[14:14] <Tm_T> JontheEchidna: aye, but that would have been in glibc then
[14:14] <DreadKnight> ScottK; i'm on karmic, i know
[14:15] <Tm_T> or so I convinced myself with some help
[14:15] <JontheEchidna> even more reason >:3
[14:15] <ScottK> OK
[14:15] <DreadKnight> but all the kde players suck because of a bug it seems
[14:15] <DreadKnight> no proper basic scrolling fuctionality
[14:15] <DreadKnight> by using left click
[14:15] <Tm_T> DreadKnight: with which engine and what source?
[14:16] <DreadKnight> default :P
[14:16] <Tm_T> xine, gstreamer, or even mplayer?
[14:16] <Tm_T> I have no idea about your defaults (;)
[14:16] <DreadKnight> meh
[14:17] <DreadKnight> i only have xine backend in multimedia configurations
[14:17] <Tm_T> for example, xine with some frontends and with some sources (files, stream) works
[14:18] <seele> ScottK: pong
[14:20] <ScottK> seele: One thing I've been thinking about recently that I really miss is that in the old mozilla suite (now seamonkey I guess) there was zero border between the scroll bar and the edge of the window so if you had the app maximized or on the right edge of the screen you could just slam your mouse over without having to target it and scroll.
[14:20] <ScottK> I'm curious what you think about that conceptually as a general usability improvement over the way things are typically done.
[14:20] <seele> ScottK: we do that in the default oxygen theme in kde?
[14:21] <ScottK> seele: Sure enough.  I never even checked.
[14:21] <seele> i would like to see kickoff fixed so the back button in the menu is on the edge. i almost made it a papercut but thought maybe that is out of scope
[14:22] <ScottK> I think that's a good idea.
[14:22] <seele> i dont know who would be able to code it unless i went upstream
[14:22] <ScottK> I switched back to the classic kickoff style because I find the new one hard to navigate.
[14:22] <ScottK> I think upstream is the right place for that one.
[14:22] <seele> i just use krunner :)
[14:23] <ScottK> ;-)
[14:23] <seele> well, i've had problems with kickoff in upstream, we disagree on some ui details
[14:23] <jussi01> lancelot FTW!
[14:23] <jussi01> :D
[14:23] <seele> i think they still have weird indents and details on hover
[14:25] <ScottK> I like that the classic one is sorted on app name, not the functional name.  I'm a lot better at remembering I want Kate than Advanced Text Editor.
[14:35] <Quintasan> anyone using Air?
[14:36] <neversfelde> sure
[14:36] <Quintasan> neversfelde: you compiled it from svn?
[14:36] <neversfelde> no
[14:36]  * Quintasan cant get widgets to use Air
[14:37] <Quintasan> my panel is using Air but widgets still use Elegance
[14:37] <Quintasan> :/
[14:38] <neversfelde> Quintasan: cd ~/.kde/share/apps/desktoptheme/ && svn co svn://anonsvn.kde.org/home/kde/trunk/KDE/kdebase/runtime/desktoptheme/air
[14:38] <neversfelde> should do it
[14:38] <neversfelde> at least it worked for me
[14:42] <shtylman> how do I reset my sound device?
[14:44] <DreadKnight> neversfelde: the one there it's looking like oxygen for me since a few days / revissions back
[14:46] <neversfelde> DreadKnight: I do not know, tried it a couple of weeks ago
[14:47] <DreadKnight> :\
[14:47] <DreadKnight> i wonder when i'll just have air by default then.. the one from kde-look doesn't installs
[14:48] <shadeslayer> http://pastebin.ca/1478362 <---what am i missing??
[14:49] <neversfelde> air is default in rc
[14:53] <flacoste> hi, is it a known bug that there is no way to add a printer in KDE 4.2.90?
[14:53] <flacoste> the system-config-printer-kde package doesn't have any binaries in it
[15:01] <yuriy> flacoste: it shouldn't, it's python. and a KCM at that
[15:01] <flacoste> yuriy: well, it doesn't contain any python either, only stuff under /usr/share/doc
[15:02] <Riddell> flacoste: what version?
[15:04] <flacoste> Riddell: 4:4.2.90-0ubuntu1~jaunty1~ppa1, coming from the jaunty KDE update PPA
[15:04] <flacoste> or backports
[15:04] <flacoste> probably backports
[15:07] <Riddell> flacoste: you're right
[15:07] <flacoste> Riddell: i should report a bug then i guess
[15:08] <Riddell> flacoste: can do although it's in  karmic
[15:08] <Riddell> not sure  what's different about the jaunty version but we'll look out for it in RC 1 due out on wednesday
[15:09] <flacoste> Riddell: ah, right, you mean that's a problem related to the backports package, and bugs for those aren't tracked in LP?
[15:09] <Riddell> flacoste: right, best tracked on  IRC :)
[15:18] <freinhard> what do i need for spellchecking in 4.2.90? empty list in systemsettings, nothing to add.
[15:19] <Riddell> flacoste: language-support-fr ?
[15:24] <freinhard> Riddell: hunspell-de-*, openoffice-hypthenation/thesaurus-de, wngerman installed but no language-support- stuff, (no need for openoffice, evolution and gimp)
[15:26] <flacoste> Riddell: what about language-support-fr?
[15:26] <flacoste> Riddell: i do have it installed
[15:27] <Riddell> flacoste: bad tab completion between you and freinhard
[15:28] <flacoste> ok
[15:29] <refic> rc packages coming?
[15:29] <shadeslayer> refic: wednesday
[15:29] <refic> right
[15:29] <shadeslayer> refic: theyve been tagged ( or should have been tagged ) :P
[15:30] <refic> good, thanks :)
[15:30] <shadeslayer> no problem..
[15:33] <shadeslayer> btw the " highlight window " effect reminds me a bit of aeropeek (in win 7) :P
[17:35] <Riddell>  /win 61
[17:35] <Riddell> hmm, no
[17:39] <kb9vqf_> Anyone here willing to rescore a PPA build?
[17:39] <kb9vqf_> This one https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-389-directory-server/+archive/ppa/+build/1097734 and related were affected by a certificates bug that has since been fixed, but it'll be many hourse before it rebuilds
[17:53]  * shadeslayer wonders if the tutorial started...
[17:54] <Bugsbane> Another 10 minutes by my reckoning
[17:54]  * Bugsbane looks at watch
[17:57] <shadeslayer> 10min?? more like 2 hours...
[17:58]  * shadeslayer looks at the clock on the taskbar...
[17:59] <Bugsbane> Ugh. Just rechecked. You're right. :(
[17:59] <Bugsbane> Good link to check it wherever you are: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?hour=19&min=0&sec=0
[18:00] <Bugsbane> (that's the start time)
[18:00] <shadeslayer> Bugsbane: Tue 12:30 AM
[18:00] <shadeslayer> New Delhi :)
[18:00] <Bugsbane> lol
[18:00] <Bugsbane> 3pm... Toronto. :)
[18:01] <shadeslayer> :)
[18:01] <ulysses__> 21:00 Hungary:)
[18:01] <shadeslayer> anyone who is actually using UTC ?
[18:01] <shadeslayer> or is in that time zone
[18:02] <Bugsbane> OK, I think we need a competition for the person staying up to the most insane time to be at these training sessions...
[18:02] <ulysses__> ulysses@loris:~$ date -u
[18:02] <ulysses__> 2009. jún. 29., hétfő, 17.01.58 UTC
[18:02] <Bugsbane> They use UTC at Greenwhich in England
[18:02] <Bugsbane> UTC = GMT
[18:04] <rdale_> gmt is only use in winter in the uk
[18:06] <shadeslayer> dang its soo hot here.... 44oC
[18:16] <shadeslayer> brb
[18:18] <seele> by default, is the GRUB menu hidden when Ubuntu is the only installed OS?
[18:18] <seele> i think I changed my options so I dont remember what is default
[18:18] <ulysses__> yes, it's hidden
[18:18] <seele> ulysses__: ok thanks
[18:25]  * ScottK hints to hsitter to answer the translations messages on kubuntu-devel ML with some good information.
[18:32] <kb9vqf_> Anyone here willing to rescore a PPA build?  This one https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-389-directory-server/+archive/ppa/+build/1097734 and related were affected by bug 392104 , but it will be many hours before the build is retried with a score of 0!
[18:34] <hsitter> ScottK: we can track template moves via svn logs
[18:34] <Riddell> kb9vqf_: I think the only buildd admins who hang around here are ncommander and hobbsee, both of whom aren't here just now
[18:34] <ScottK> hsitter: Can you please help get them on track and show them how.  At least we're getting some sign they care now.
[18:34]  * hsitter could implement that whole thing :P
[18:34] <hsitter> but no way I am going to do that in python *shudder*
[18:35] <ScottK> Python is love.
[18:35] <hsitter> python is a mess :P
[18:35] <kb9vqf_> Riddell: thanks; I'll try again later
[18:36] <ScottK> Riddell: While you're here, would you please mark the ayatana integration spec approved.
[18:36] <Riddell> ScottK: that is right on my todo list below "prepare tutorial"
[18:36] <Riddell> I've been a bit crappy about it sorry
[18:37] <ScottK> Riddell: OK.  Thanks.  It's not blocking work.
[18:38] <yuriy> hsitter: I added blank docs to userconfig as you said, but i'm not sure if i'm installing them right
[18:41] <hsitter> yuriy: blank is not what they should be
[18:41] <hsitter> they should be stating that there are no docs at the very least
[18:41] <yuriy> well, with a message about how there aren't any
[18:41] <hsitter> okies
[18:41] <yuriy> i call that blank :P
[18:42] <hsitter> yuriy: well, just click the help button in the kcm window
[18:42] <hsitter> then you know if you installed them right ;-)
[18:42] <ScottK> With a sound notification of an evil laugh.
[18:43] <yuriy> hsitter: well that works but i'm still not sure, because "en" is hardcoded and all other docs have a "common" dir
[18:43] <hsitter> ScottK: if only kde would use svn mv
[18:44] <hsitter> http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/l10n-kde4/templates/messages/kdelibs/katepart4.pot?view=log&log_pagestart=200
[18:44] <hsitter> yuriy: that is way to confusing for me
[18:44] <hsitter> go use cmake :P
[18:44] <yuriy> i am. i'm basically asking if there's a macro for this that i'm not finding
[18:44] <hsitter> yes, there is :P
[18:45] <yuriy> hsitter: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/guidance/userconfig-kde4/annotate/head:/CMakeLists.txt
[18:45] <hsitter> yuriy: http://techbase.kde.org/Development/CMake/Addons_for_KDE
[18:45] <yuriy> i read that
[18:46] <hsitter> hm hm
[18:47] <hsitter> ScottK: I can't even find an example for move, other than KDE 4 startup ;-)
[18:47] <ScottK> Do we have the KDE 3 -> 4 moves right yet?
[18:47]  * hsitter also finds it rather unlikely that stuff gets renamed one way or another
[18:48]  * ScottK thinks all we can do is answer their questions and then bitch again when it still doesn't work.
[18:48] <hsitter> ScottK: no, that is what arne is talking about towards the end of his mail
[18:48] <ScottK> Oh.
[18:48] <hsitter> we just need a list of all kde domains so we can tell them which ones to kick
[18:48]  * ScottK is stuggling mightily to remain completely ignorant about translations.
[18:53] <hsitter> hmmmm
[18:53] <hsitter> ScottK: in fact it is very well possible that KDE does not care at all and just change translation domains
[18:53] <hsitter> I am quite sure that the script responsible for pot/po updates is also capable of removing stuff for which there is no need anymore and add new files for new translation domains
[18:56] <Riddell> the channel is getting busyer..
[18:57] <IndigoJo> as the ruby tutorial comes closer!
[18:57] <hsitter> ruby ruby ruby!
[18:57] <seele> oh my gosh 137 people
[18:57] <shadeslayer> ruby?? i thought it was introduction day
[18:57] <seele> 138
[18:57] <shadeslayer> seele: 139
[18:57] <Riddell> shadeslayer: there's talks/tutorials on a range of topics
[18:58] <shadeslayer> Riddell: of course...but isnt today intro day?
[18:59] <Riddell> shadeslayer: yes, nothing too hard
[18:59] <Riddell> intro to kubuntu in an hour with rgreening
[18:59] <Riddell> ruby after that, in two hours
[18:59]  * rgreening scrambles his notes together
[19:00] <shadeslayer> ah..
[19:00]  * shadeslayer has all night to study :)
[19:00] <Riddell> ~twitter update Kubuntu Tutorials Day takes off in an hour with "The next six months with Kubuntu" in #kubuntu-devel https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
[19:00] <kubotu> your status message is longer than 140 characters, which is not optimal, but I'm going to update anyway
[19:00] <kubotu> status updated
[19:01] <IndigoJo> uh, it said 2000 UTC for ruby
[19:01] <Riddell> uh oh, I might just have broken twitter
[19:01] <shadeslayer> haha...
[19:01] <Riddell> it's currently 18:00UTC
[19:01] <IndigoJo> isn't that now?
[19:01] <Riddell> date -u  knows all
[19:01] <IndigoJo> I thought UTC = GMT
[19:01] <david_edmundson> summer time makes things far too confusing.
[19:01] <rgreening> lol
[19:02] <david_edmundson> IndigoJo: not always
[19:02] <rgreening> UTC takes DST into effect
[19:02] <rgreening> GMT does not
[19:02] <hsitter> Riddell: we should deploy with UTC set as alternate timezone for the panel clock
[19:02] <hsitter> that way people can scroll the clock rather than run date -u ;-)
[19:02]  * ScottK can subtact 4 in his head just fine.
[19:03] <ScottK> subtract even
[19:03] <neversfelde> we can catch all people that are too early and send them writing kubuntu-docs :D
[19:03] <jussi01> @now
[19:03] <david_edmundson> hsitter: utc already exists in the time zone list :-)
[19:03] <jussi01> easy :D
[19:03] <IndigoJo> so where is UTC's meridian?
[19:03] <hsitter> david_edmundson: but it is not selected, is it?
[19:04] <spechard> IndigoJo: and who's in it?
[19:04] <hsitter> ScottK: KDE got all sorts of fancy files to track template changes
[19:05] <hsitter> ScottK: once I have understood them, it should be pretty easy to put them to kubuntu use
[19:05] <ScottK> Cool
[19:10] <shadeslayer> will they be teaching us ruby from scratch?
[19:12] <DreadKnight> are we there yet?
[19:12] <IndigoJo> shadeslayer: the topics are here: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
[19:13] <shadeslayer> IndigoJo: i know the topics...
[19:14] <shadeslayer> i just wanted to know whether from scratch...like in C++ cout<<"Hello World" :P
[19:17] <kiberlynx> what time is it?
[19:18] <YoyoKirby> Depends on your location
[19:18] <hsitter> 18:18
[19:18] <kiberlynx> is this the right place for the tuts
[19:18] <shadeslayer> @now
[19:18] <ulysses__> in konsole: date -u
[19:18] <ulysses__> it is the UTC time
[19:18] <shadeslayer> ugh!!..
[19:18] <CarrotNL> @now
[19:18] <YoyoKirby> I was kinda wondering about the tuts myself
[19:18] <kiberlynx> ulysses__: nice tip
[19:19] <shadeslayer> CarrotNL: i guess that command is for people registered with ubottu (i.e ops)
[19:21] <hsitter> kubotu: script add now m.reply Time.now
[19:21] <kubotu> aight
[19:21] <hsitter> kubotu: now
[19:21] <kubotu> Mon Jun 29 21:21:52 +0300 2009
[19:22] <hsitter> anyone up for ruby? ;-)
[19:22] <hsitter> kubotu: script add -f now m.reply Time.now.utc
[19:22] <kubotu> lemme take care of that for you
[19:22] <hsitter> kubotu: now
[19:22] <kubotu> Mon Jun 29 18:22:19 UTC 2009
[19:22] <shadeslayer> hsitter: im learning :P
[19:22] <hsitter> there we go
[19:22] <shadeslayer> hsitter: from here : http://tryruby.hobix.com/
[19:22] <hsitter> kubotu: search ruby class time
[19:22] <kubotu> Results for ruby class time: 1. Class: Time: http://www.ruby-doc.org/core/classes/Time.html | 2. Ruby Time Class: Ruby Study Notes - Best Ruby Guide, Ruby Tutorial: http://rubylearning.com/satishtalim/ruby_time_class.html | 3. LA's Blog: Ruby class method extensions: http://lastattacker.blogspot.com/2009/03/ruby-class-method-extensions.html
[19:22] <hsitter> for reference ;-)
[19:25] <kiberlynx> gowi
[19:26] <Riddell> kiberlynx, YoyoKirby: yes it's the right place, starting in half an house
[19:26] <Riddell> huh?
[19:26] <Riddell> kiberlynx, YoyoKirby: yes it's the right place, starting in half an hour
[19:26]  * apachelogger giggles
[19:27] <kiberlynx> ok tks
[19:27] <mzaugg> apachelogger:  Just hit us with everything now, Shadeslayer and I ought to be ready to take over from you for the second half hour, right?  :-P
[19:27] <shadeslayer> mzaugg: haha...
[19:28]  * shadeslayer wonders if theres a information transfer machine theyre hiding
[19:29] <mzaugg> In that case, let me get my thanks in ahead of time and I'll just try to get ready to cram everything into this little tiny brain of mine...
[19:29] <apachelogger> class CName;def initialize;puts "hullos";end;end; CName.new;
[19:29] <apachelogger> all you need to know ;-)
[19:29] <shadeslayer> :)
[19:31]  * Dhraakellian pokes his head in, despite not being on Kubuntu anymore
[19:31] <Riddell> that can always be fixed :)
[19:32] <pvandewyngaerde> date -u +%T
[19:33] <apachelogger> kubotu: now
[19:33] <kubotu> Mon Jun 29 18:33:01 UTC 2009
[19:33] <Daskreech> Dhraakellian: ayyyyyy
[19:33] <apachelogger> kubotu: topic learn
[19:33] <kubotu> lemme take care of that for you
[19:33] <apachelogger> kubotu: save
[19:33] <kubotu> okies!
[19:34] <Daskreech> ugh
[19:34] <Daskreech> Karmic is screentearing horribly with compositing
[19:35] <shadeslayer> Daskreech: kamic is not supported and will surely break :PO
[19:35] <shadeslayer> *:P
[19:35] <shadeslayer> *karmic
[19:35] <Daskreech> I know but this is a n ATI 7800 card you would think that it would get better not worse
[19:36] <shadeslayer> hehe
[19:36] <kiberlynx> maybe when it goes stable, you could expect it to be stable lol
[19:36] <shadeslayer> hahaha
[19:37] <Daskreech> ok what's the opendesktop thing on the desktop?
[19:37] <Daskreech> should i Sign up? What does it do for me what does it add to the community?
[19:38] <Riddell> they're still working that out
[19:38] <Riddell> so far you can find people near you
[19:39] <Riddell> but see the competition on dot.kde.org for getting more ideas in
[19:39] <Daskreech> Siii should I sign up or is still a party in experiment?
[19:39] <Daskreech> That account doesn't really let me do anything else or help anyone else?
[19:40] <apachelogger> Daskreech: it's a kde-looks/apps... account
[19:40] <Daskreech> Ah
[19:40] <Daskreech> So no then :-D
[19:40] <Daskreech> Hmm can GHNS make use of this?
[19:40]  * Daskreech trots off to #akonadi
[19:45] <bobesponja> so has the ruby tutorial started? :)
[19:46] <shadeslayer> bobesponja: nope
[19:46] <YenTheFirst> I hope not - it's scheduled for 20:00 UTC, it's 18:46 right now
[19:46] <shadeslayer> bobesponja: i have a ongoing tutorial here : http://tryruby.hobix.com/
[19:46]  * apachelogger is busy listening to daft punk :P
[19:46] <Dhraakellian> 20-4=16, so it should be at 4PM US EDT
[19:46] <apachelogger> *prime time of your life*
[19:46] <Dhraakellian> I just need to remember that
[19:47] <bobesponja> shadeslayer: thanks I know that, I was looking for a ruby plasmoid tutor apachelogger announced on identica
[19:47] <shadeslayer> cool....
[19:47] <apachelogger> I didn't say plasmiod, did I?:P
[19:47] <YenTheFirst> I dunno about KDE4, since I'm running 8.04, but my clock has multiple time zones when I hover over it
[19:47] <YenTheFirst> I love that feature
[19:48]  * apachelogger notes that coding plasmoids is a rather boring practise since most of the code needs to go into backend stuff
[19:48] <bobesponja> it wass ruby something :)
[19:48] <Daskreech> why does that make it boring ?
[19:49] <apachelogger> cause non-visible stuff is always boring :P
[19:49] <apachelogger> bobesponja: well, I don't know myself what I will be talking about, so...
[19:50] <bobesponja> heh, ok
[19:50] <jscurtu> am I late for the Tutorial??
[19:50] <SylentBob> nope
[19:50] <jscurtu> cool... :-)
[19:50] <shadeslayer> kubotu: now
[19:50] <kubotu> Mon Jun 29 18:50:58 UTC 2009
[19:51] <shadeslayer> we have 10 min :)
[19:51]  * shadeslayer grabs a water bottle
[19:51] <jscurtu> nice, i just read it on the planet...
[19:51] <Dhraakellian> the first hour is upcoming stuff in Kubuntu 9.10, right?
[19:51] <BluesKaj> is this tutorial just going to be about generalities like the lastime i attended or will there be specific questions fielded
[19:51] <shadeslayer> yep
[19:51] <jscurtu> yea
[19:52]  * Dhraakellian feels kinda awkward being in here despite not running Kubuntu anymore
[19:52] <shadeslayer> Dhraakellian: that can be fixed :)
[19:53] <Dhraakellian> I suppose I could plug in the laptop and start a kubuntu install over its current opensuse 11.1 installation
[19:53] <Daskreech> Dhraakellian: naw just run a LIve cd then you can fake it
[19:53] <shadeslayer> lol....
[19:54] <Dhraakellian> ...I'd just have to look up the appropriate stuff for drive encryption, since I have LVM set up on an encrypted partition rather than encrypting the individual LVs. ('twas the easiest way to get Suse with encrypted /)
[19:55] <Dhraakellian> Daskreech: the problem being that my Kubuntu 9.04 CD is an alt-install disc
[19:55] <bobesponja> apachelogger: how about a tutorial for amarok ruby script? that would be cool :)
[19:55] <stefanlsd> i've never actually installed kubuntu. i def. will install kubuntu tomorrow in a vm and check it out...
[19:55] <apachelogger> I don't think that works right now
[19:55]  * Daskreech pulls a long face. Oh well guess you'll just have to blow Suse away
[19:55] <apachelogger> only ecma is supported AFAIK
[19:55] <Dhraakellian> hehhehheh
[19:55] <Wormik> I need comment by # letter strings if [ $# -gt 0 ] && [ $1 = "all" ] in 20 files automatically. Howto do it?
[19:56] <Daskreech> Dhraakellian: Could be worse could be that KDE imposter Windows 7
[19:57] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: how do you run a ruby IDE ?
[19:57] <bobesponja> ok
[19:57] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: tweaked kate
[19:58] <apachelogger> sometimes vim
[19:58] <Dhraakellian> lemme grab the 9.04 Live ISO
[19:58] <apachelogger> depends on the project really ;-)
[19:58] <Daskreech> Dhraakellian: Daily :)
[19:58] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: begginer...
[19:58] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: i know a bit of C++ but thats it :)
[19:58] <Dhraakellian> Daskreech: eh?
[19:59] <ulysses__> hy toros:)
[19:59] <micmord> -1
[19:59] <shadeslayer> *beginner
[19:59] <Riddell> ~twitter update Kubuntu Tutorials Day starting in two minutes!  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
[19:59] <kubotu> status updated
[19:59] <shadeslayer> Riddell: where do these tweets go??
[19:59] <Riddell> shadeslayer: twitter
[19:59] <shadeslayer> as in whose profile?
[20:00] <Riddell> jriddell I think
[20:00] <Dhraakellian> not identica?
[20:00] <Riddell> I don't think the bot talks to identica
[20:00]  * shadeslayer logs into twitter and follows jriddel
[20:00] <shadeslayer> ***jriddell
[20:00] <IndigoJo> does anyone know if anyone's got a ppa with qt for jaunty?
[20:00] <IndigoJo> I'd like to upgrade to v4.5.2 if poss
[20:01] <Riddell> I don't think we have 4.5.2 for jaunty
[20:01] <Riddell> rgreening: you about ready?
[20:01] <IndigoJo> any plans to build it? would it break anything?
[20:01] <rgreening> Riddell: yep.
[20:01]  * Daskreech kicks the bot. Be Free!!!
[20:01] <Riddell> Good Evening Friends!
[20:01] <Riddell> who's here for Kubuntu Tutorials Day?
[20:01] <shadeslayer> me
[20:01] <nemphis> me
[20:01] <CarotNL> me
[20:01] <dvda> me
[20:01] <micmord> me
[20:01] <ulysses__> me
[20:01] <Kabal458> me
[20:01] <nantal> me
[20:01] <dukai_> me
[20:01] <rafiii> me
[20:01] <MirzaD_> me
[20:01] <kais0> me
[20:01] <Wormik> me
[20:01] <IndigoJo> yep
[20:01] <SylentBob> me
[20:01]  * stefanlsd raises his hand!
[20:01] <richerVE> me
[20:01] <IndigoJo> me
[20:01] <pan_de_> me
[20:02] <cumulus007> me
[20:02] <PolyC> me
[20:02] <neversfelde> me
[20:02] <biboka> me
[20:02] <Monika|K> me
[20:02] <Dhraakellian> me
[20:02] <WielkieG> i think me too
[20:02] <Riddell> sweet!
[20:02] <bodgit> me
[20:02] <wolfger_> me, but not yet :-)
[20:02] <YenTheFirst> me. :)
[20:02] <IndigoJo> I think we have a flood
[20:02] <gcala> me
[20:02] <Riddell> we love you all
[20:02] <Dhraakellian> actually, what wolfger_ said
[20:02] <wernerm> me
[20:02] <Riddell> so we have a fine programme of talks and tutorials today with a KDE and Kubuntu theme
[20:02] <Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay  incase you missed it
[20:02] <Unksi> hi
[20:02] <Riddell> yuo may find it useful to keep your irc client quiet by silencing parts and joins http://clintecker.com/disable-irc-msgs.html
[20:03] <richerVE> Unksi, it's "me" today, not "hi" hehe
[20:03] <Riddell> please keep the chit chat down during the talks so we don't get distracted, but do ask questions when you want to know anything
[20:03] <Daskreech> ugh I swear that ubuntu is trying to be the most usable least functional distro available
[20:03] <Riddell> first up is Roderick Greening with "The next six months with Kubuntu"
[20:03] <rgreening> Hello all :)
[20:04] <Riddell> Roderick is an elite Kubuntu developer from Canada
[20:04]  * SylentBob applauds.
[20:04]  * Daskreech /ends rant
[20:04] <Riddell> take it away rgreening!
[20:04] <rgreening> Excellent.
[20:04] <rgreening> Wow, what a great turn out
[20:04] <rgreening> Welcome to Kubuntu Tutorials Day! - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
[20:04] <rgreening> I'll begin with a short intoduction..
[20:05] <rgreening> For those that do not already know me, my name is Roderick Greening
[20:05]  * BluesKaj is still unconvinced ...the fanboys are lining up :)
[20:05] <rgreening> I am here to talk about: "The next six months with Kubuntu - What's coming in Karmic and how you can help"
[20:05] <actaea_> \sh: /ignore #mwsf
[20:05] <rgreening> Here is a brief summary of what I am about to cover:
[20:05] <ELITE_x> hello
[20:05] <rgreening>  ** Bio ** - a little bit about myself and what I do
[20:05] <rgreening>  ** About Kubuntu ** - a brief overview of the Kubuntu Cummunity Project
[20:05] <rgreening>  ** Developer Roles ** - breakdown of the contributer roles in the Kubuntu Community
[20:05] <rgreening>  ** Past/Present/Future ** - review of Jaunty, Karmic and on-going work and how you can help
[20:05] <rgreening>  ** Q & A ** - "I'll take 'Letters of the Alphabet' for $500 Alex"
[20:05] <Wormik> nice beggining
[20:05] <rgreening> Please note: I would ask that you hold off questions until the end, unless absolutely necessary. Thank-you.
[20:06] <rgreening> The agenda is also pasted here: Agenda: http://paste.ubuntu.com/206474/
[20:06] <rgreening> "Are you sitting comfortably? Then we'll begin.", (c) P.B. 1984 ;)
[20:06] <rgreening> ** Bio **
[20:07] <rgreening> - I am turning 38 July 4th (woo-hoo!) and reside in St. John, NL (that's in Canada - big island on atlantic coastline - 47.55/52.67)
[20:07] <Wormik> What happens when I press Tab in Konsole? I see "Display all 3535 possibilities? (y or n)"
[20:07] <Wormik>  ** Developer Roles *
[20:07] <Daskreech> Wormik: autocomplete for all things you can do
[20:07] <Daskreech> !tab > Wormik
[20:07] <Wormik> ** Developer Roles **
[20:07] <rgreening> - I work in the telecommunications industry, managing the regional headquarters
[20:08] <rgreening> - Started using Linux in 1993 (I like to say I'm "Windows Free Since '93" - it's catchy - pass it on)
[20:08] <rgreening> - Prior to work in Kubuntu, I help develop and provide packages fro KDE in Gentoo via a private overlay (specializing in qy-copy patches, and other enhancements)
[20:08] <rgreening> - I became an offical Kubuntu Member (developer/packager) in October 2008 and a MOTU in March of 2009
[20:08] <rgreening> - Currently I help Kubuntu though packaging, patching, and helping write some small applications
[20:08] <rgreening> - Contact info: check out my wiki page for further details - http://wiki.kubuntu.org/rgreening
[20:09] <rgreening> So, are we good thus far?
[20:09] <rgreening> :P
[20:09]  * SylentBob nods.
[20:09] <arvid> y
[20:09] <shadeslayer> yep
[20:09]  * IndigoJo nods
[20:09] <rgreening> Ok.. onto next topic
[20:09] <rgreening> ** About Kubuntu (koo-BOON-too) **
[20:09] <rgreening> - Kubuntu is a Community driven project, and an official project of Ubuntu
[20:09] <rgreening> - It uses the same "under the hood" system as Ubuntu, but we switch out the body (GTK/Gnome) and replace it with a new one (KDE)
[20:10] <micmord> wow
[20:10] <rgreening> - The first version was released in 2005 (5.04 - Hoary) and the latest earlier this year (9.04 - Jaunty)
[20:10] <rgreening> - It is one of the top KDE based distro's, and prides itself on keeping as close to a "stock" KDE install as possible
[20:10] <rgreening> - We have a small, but very tight-knit community of dedicated contributers who are fun to work with
[20:10] <rgreening> - Currently, it is primarily KDE4 based, with some KDE3 apps (K3B for example), but for Karmic we will be totally KDE4
[20:11]  * rgreening say to give a round of applause for that last one
[20:11] <rgreening> :)
[20:11]  * IndigoJo claps
[20:11]  * david_edmundson claps
[20:11] <pan_de_> :)
[20:11]  * cumulus007 claps
[20:11] <Dhraakellian> harooh
[20:11]  * shadeslayer claps
[20:11]  * pvandewyngaerde claps
[20:11] <nantal> claps
[20:11] <jnowka> woot
[20:11]  * dvda claps
[20:11] <Wormik> KDE4... ((( I think, beta is better that release.
[20:11] <rafiii> claps
[20:11] <tmth> *wheestles*
[20:11] <nantal> nantal claps
[20:11] <rgreening> - Has been deployed in many evironments, worldwide, including some very large scale (like the French parliament)
[20:11] <Spittel1> still using kde3
[20:11] <cumulus007> neat
[20:12] <rgreening> - Enhancements are added each release, to improve Ubuntu feature parity and improve user experience, but also new problems, bugs, etc to resolve...
[20:12]  * kb9vqf_ hands Spittel1 a cookie
[20:12] <kb9vqf_> :)
[20:12] <Spittel1> ty ;)
[20:12] <rgreening> - This is where you come in, we need new contributers, developers, packagers, etc..
[20:12] <Daskreech> !kde3 | Spittel1 you have that choice too
[20:12] <Spittel1> thats what i'm using
[20:12] <rgreening> Next tpoic...
[20:13] <rgreening> s/tpoic/topic
[20:13] <rgreening> ** Developer Roles **
[20:13] <rgreening> - There are many roles available to you, no matter your level of experience!
[20:13] <rgreening> - I will break down the jobs/roles, in order of easiest to the hardest (requiring a bit more experience/effort).
[20:13] <rgreening> - Our developers mailing list - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
[20:13] <rgreening> - Please subscribe, if you intend to help out, and you may use this to communicate and work with our developers
[20:13] <BluesKaj> rgreening, is the packagekit gonna be dumped or improved ?.it's awfully flaky and unstable
[20:14] <rgreening> - NOTE: this list is NOT for general user support
[20:14] <rgreening> remind me at the end... questions later :)
[20:14] <rgreening> BluesKaj: ^
[20:14] <rgreening> - Roles: Advocacy, Support, Bug Triage, Documentation, Packaging, and Coding
[20:15] <rgreening> I'll now briefly go over each role...
[20:15] <rgreening> = Advocacy (Marketing) =
[20:15] <rgreening> - Advocacy helps in the development of Kubuntu, by spreading awareness.
[20:15] <rgreening> - It is about getting Kubuntu known and used!
[20:15] <rgreening> - Putting it in the hands of other people who will use the system.
[20:15] <rgreening> - How can you be a Kubuntu advocate?
[20:16] <rgreening> first, can I get a show of harnds for those who are advocates?
[20:16]  * rgreening raises his hand 
[20:16]  * Riddell is
[20:16] <dantalizing> o/
[20:16]  * arvid is
[20:16]  * ulysses__ raises his hand also
[20:16] <apachelogger> \o/
[20:16] <shadeslayer> i started a LUG in my college...so yeah...
[20:16]  * shadeslayer raises his had
[20:16] <dantalizing> <-wants to be anyway
[20:16] <shadeslayer> *hand
[20:16] <mzaugg> Yessir
[20:16] <DreadKnight> :D
[20:17] <comm_a_nder> advocates?
[20:17]  * rgreening thinks that's awesome
[20:17] <cumulus007> I'm not an advocate
[20:17] <DreadKnight> *linux advocate, convertor of masses*
[20:17] <jagguli> o/
[20:17] <MirzaD_> i switched 5 people to kubuntu :)
[20:17]  * YenTheFirst should be, but isn't yet
[20:17] <cumulus007> oh, I am, I sure am
[20:17] <jnowka> I am
[20:17] <Spittel1> sure
[20:17] <comm_a_nder> o_|
[20:17]  * BluesKaj should read the rules...din't know this is a classroom debate :)
[20:17] <rgreening> excellent to see so many advocating Kubunto
[20:17] <nantal> i'm began the learning about linux with Kubuntu :D
[20:18]  * DreadKnight is building an foundation, developing free open source games that are cross platform in order to make linux more worthy for the desktop    www.FreezingMoon.org
[20:18] <CarotNL> i got 2 to use kubuntu
[20:18] <rgreening> Ok, so, getting back to how you can advocate (or for those who do, maybe some additional avenues to explore):
[20:18] <rgreening> * Join a Ubuntu LoCo team [or create one for your area (if none exists)] or even join a general LUG (Linux Users Group)
[20:18] <rgreening> * Talk about it face-to-face with friends, family, colleagues, people you meet at the computing section at a local bookstore...
[20:18] <rgreening> * Give talks at events, school, college, university, etc...
[20:18] <rgreening> * Work at the Kubuntu booth at an event
[20:19] <rgreening> wow, lot's of ways to help advocate, huh!
[20:19]  * DreadKnight even converted his parents to k/ubuntu! O_o
[20:19] <rgreening> I'm sure there are plenty of others too. Rock on for those already doing this.
[20:19] <micmord> Ohh, I have some kubuntu stickers
[20:20] <rgreening> Next...
[20:20] <Spittel1> just show it to the people tired of vista, best way around ;)
[20:20] <rgreening> = User Support =
[20:20] <rgreening> - How does User support help you as a contributer/developer?
[20:20] <MirzaD_> use kubuntu in public so other people will see and go wooow what is that :)
[20:20] <steef_> HELLO. Just checking. Tutorial in ~3.5 hours?
[20:20] <rgreening> * Builds a sense of pride when you help others
[20:20] <rgreening> steef_: first session is underway now
[20:20] <cumulus007> I have to go :( will check the logs
[20:20] <Monika|K> steef_ it has already started 20 minutes ago
[20:21] <rgreening> * Develop a healthy respect for the project, its users, the developers, and yourself
[20:21] <DreadKnight> it would be interesting to have a laptop running kubuntu in an popular area and allow people to use it for free :)
[20:21] <rgreening> * Helps build repor within the community (Kubuntu and more generally in Ubuntu)
[20:21] <rgreening> * Report to developers on things that could be changed to help improve user experience
[20:21] <rgreening> - YOUR help in this area is a tremendous aid to our developers.
[20:21] <rgreening> because....
[20:21] <rgreening> * You help free up time for the main developers
[20:22] <jscurtu> i was planing on going to local computer shops and to ask if i can have a stand and show kubuntu / kde / Opensource
[20:22] <rgreening> * You get to take what you learn from common issues and learn communicate that effectively
[20:22] <rgreening> * You will provide developers with better information on how to make Kubuntu better
[20:22] <rgreening> - Where can you provide user support:
[20:22] <DreadKnight> jscurtu: nice! but most people are too noobish to get rid of windows or don't have the courage/experience to do things properly, backup, trouble shooting and so on
[20:23] <rgreening> Lets hear from the crowd on this...
[20:23] <DreadKnight> irc, forums
[20:23] <rgreening> shout out some suggestions
[20:23] <shadeslayer> rgreening: IRC,forums
[20:23] <rgreening> excellent
[20:23] <rgreening> where else
[20:23] <Monika|K> mailing lists, wikis
[20:23] <YenTheFirst> face-to-face
[20:23] <Monika|K> launchpad questions
[20:23] <rgreening> rock on
[20:23] <rgreening> :)
[20:23] <YenTheFirst> that's important - many new people won't seek out internet help
[20:23] <CarotNL> writing books
[20:23] <nantal> that's a good idea
[20:23] <shadeslayer> YenTheFirst: imho its about help finding you :)
[20:23] <rgreening> ok... here are some locations and links:
[20:24] <Monika|K> on Linux/FLOSS events often people come to the booths and ask for help, too
[20:24] <Kombat> kde's userbase
[20:24] <rgreening> * IRC - #kubuntu on Freenode - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
[20:24] <rgreening> * Forums - http://ubuntuforums.org, http://www.kubuntuforums.net
[20:24] <jnowka> I support those I have brought into the linux fold until they can stand on their own feet.
[20:24] <rgreening> * Mailing List - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-users
[20:24] <rgreening> * At your local LUG or LoCo events
[20:24] <CarotNL> whats that>
[20:25] <rgreening> I'm glad to see so much help and participation from everyone here
[20:25] <rgreening> Ok, next...
[20:25] <micmord> rgreening: don't forget google and rtfm  :-P
[20:25] <Dhraakellian> CarotNL: userbase.kde.org?
[20:25] <Spittel1> too easy
[20:25] <rgreening> micmord: good ones as well
[20:25] <rgreening> = Bug Triage =\
[20:25] <rgreening> - Bug triage is a very important part of the development process.
[20:26] <rgreening> two things you can do here:
[20:26] <rgreening> a) Go through existing bug reports and test to see if you can reproduce the issue and then confirm the bug
[20:26] <rgreening> - It is a big part on ensuring it gets fixed.
[20:26] <rgreening> - When bugs sit in New or Incomplete, their chances of getting looked at in depth are lower than a confirmed bug.
[20:26] <rgreening> b) Fixing a bug by patching the software in question.
[20:26] <rgreening> - Refer to https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay/Beasties for a past discussion on this
[20:27] <rgreening> we need bug triagers and fixers.... :)
[20:28] <rgreening> if you are interested, just speak to one of the devs after tutorial day for some guidance :P
[20:28] <rgreening> we also need help with...
[20:28] <rgreening> = Documentation =
[20:28] <rgreening> - Documentation is a very large and important task.
[20:28] <rgreening> - As it stands, there are only a few of us who work on the Kubuntu documentation (nixternal and jjesse to point out two of them)
[20:28] <rgreening> - For further information on documentation please see either of the following:
[20:28] <rgreening> * Ubuntu Documentation Project wiki - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/DocumentationTeam
[20:29] <jscurtu> we need our own repository, no ppa... so kde xorg related fixes go in there, not that kubuntu suffers from ubuntu fixes...
[20:29] <rgreening> * Ubuntu Documentation Project mailing list - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
[20:29] <rgreening> * IRC - #ubuntu-doc on Freenode - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
[20:29] <rgreening> * Ask the Kubuntu doc experts (nixternal or jjesse for expample)
[20:29] <rgreening> Next role...
[20:30] <rgreening> = Packaging =
[20:30] <rgreening> What should you know if you are thinking about packaging?
[20:30] <rgreening> * Familiarity with the command line
[20:30] <rgreening> * Ability to download, extract, configure, build, and install a tarball (file.tar.gz and such)
[20:30] <nantal> or apt-get
[20:30] <rgreening> * Familiarity with Debian based packaging scripts and utilities (pbuilder, dh_make, dh_install, and more)
[20:31] <rgreening> * ls, cd, mv, mkdir, rm, man, info, dget, wget, tar and a few more...
[20:31] <rgreening> * dh_make, debdiff, lintian, pbuilder, dh_install, debuild, dput, and more...
[20:31]  * Riddell will be covering some of this in his tutorial later
[20:31] <rgreening> Yes, please stay tuned for that
[20:31] <rgreening> :)
[20:31] <rgreening> thanks Riddell
[20:31] <rgreening> More information on packaging can be located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[20:32] <rgreening> Final Role...
[20:32] <rgreening> = Coding =
[20:32] <rgreening> C++ and Python are our 2 main languages here at Kubuntu and if you have any experience we should have something for you.
[20:32] <Monika|K> really just *any* experience?
[20:33] <rgreening> yea then check out the todo page and see if something interesting is there ( https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo)
[20:33] <rgreening> Monika|K: yep. we can help with the missing bits
[20:33] <rgreening> Have a pkg in mind... If so, then come to one of our regularly scheduled developer meetings and place your ideas on the agenda for that meeting.
[20:33] <rgreening>  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[20:34] <david_edmundson> almost all the development looks assigned.
[20:34] <pan_de_> python 3 or previous version?
[20:34] <rgreening> pan_de_: 2.6 or 3
[20:35] <rgreening> david_edmundson: assisgned, but we can always use additional help (like USB creator needs some bug investigation and fixing - hint hint)
[20:35] <david_edmundson> ok. I'll help on that (in fact I started the KDE version of that. )
[20:35] <Dhraakellian> python is the main non-C++ language, and there's a Ruby tutorial next
[20:35] <Dhraakellian> hmmm
[20:35] <rgreening> Anyone here interested in helping with bug triaging, packagin, docs, coding?
[20:35] <Kabal458> me
[20:35] <micmord> rgreening: what about relationships with upstream kde.org?
[20:35] <khaije|amalt> rgreening: yes
[20:35] <nhandler> o/ ;)
[20:36] <shadeslayer> rgreening: me....
[20:36] <rgreening> awesome
[20:36] <Monika|K> yes
[20:36] <david_edmundson> I'd like to help to some of that
[20:36] <Kombat> me
[20:36] <dvda> me too
[20:36]  * Kabal458 doesn't know where to start
[20:36] <khaije|amalt> rgreening: if it's not too OT could you explain the licensing situation of PyQT at some point?
[20:36]  * Monika|K wants to code ... something
[20:37] <jagguli> Kabal458: me too
[20:37] <rgreening> ok, thats great. Anyone who wishes to help, you may contact me or one of the devs if you need some guidance/direction or mentoring. we'd love to help.
[20:37] <rgreening> khaije|amalt: we can take that offline...
[20:37] <Sime> khaije|amalt: PyQt is GPL and will stay that way in the short term at least.
[20:37] <rgreening> ok, so onto the meat...
[20:37] <rgreening> ty Sime
[20:37] <rgreening> :P
[20:38] <rgreening> ** Past/Present/Future **
[20:38] <rgreening> - So with Jaunty:
[20:38] <rgreening> * we further solidified the desktop with KDE4.2 and edged ever closer to being able to completely remove KDE3 from the CD/DVD.
[20:38] <rgreening> * We introduced some new default applications (like Quassel for IRC) and made some improvements to existing ones (like KPackageKit, Amarok...) and better media codec detection.
[20:38] <rgreening> * Fixed many bugs
[20:38] <rgreening> * See the release notes for more info - http://www.kubuntu.org/news/9.04-release
[20:38] <rgreening> - What are we doing for Karmic:
[20:38] <rgreening> * At UDS we have many ideas and discussions.
[20:39] <rgreening> * Here are the specifications for what we covered: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicSpecs
[20:39] <rgreening> 1) Packaging - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicPackaging
[20:39] <rgreening> Karmic will ship with KDE 4.3
[20:39] <rgreening> Kaffine - Kde4 version (replace Dragon as default)
[20:39] <rgreening> K3B - Kde4 version
[20:39] <rgreening> Koffice 2 to stay in Universe (OpenOffice to remain as default Office Suite)
[20:39] <rgreening> Arora Web Browser on CD/DVD
[20:39] <rgreening> Build everything with Qt Phonon (instead of KDE Phonon)
[20:39] <rgreening> Yay!!!
[20:40] <Monika|K> no more Konqueror?
[20:40] <rgreening> 2) Development - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicDevelopment
[20:40]  * shadeslayer claps....no more konqueror
[20:40] <rgreening> Monika|K: Konq will be there still
[20:40] <shadeslayer> noo
[20:40] <rgreening> just not default
[20:40] <rgreening> 2) Development - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicDevelopment
[20:40] <rgreening> Now fully KDE4 - Drop KDE3 libs and deps
[20:40]  * rgreening cheers
[20:40] <msdlk45> i hope OOo with the brand new kde4 integration
[20:40] <rgreening> OpenOffice - KDE4 integration (file picker/dialogs, oxygen icons)
[20:40] <rgreening> yep
[20:40] <ralf_> Why Qt Phonon instead of KDE Phonon?
[20:41] <rgreening> KPackageKit - Use built-in notifications again
[20:41] <ulysses__> what about koffice 2?
[20:41] <rgreening> ralf_: Questions in a few min...
[20:41] <rgreening> KPackageKit - Use built-in notifications again
[20:41] <rgreening> system-config-printer - finish it (finally)
[20:41] <rgreening> 3) Ubiquity - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicUbiquity
[20:41] <rgreening> Bling - add some Qt CSS to style it (look like Air theme)
[20:41] <rgreening> Parity - ensure we follow Ubuntu version
[20:42] <rgreening> 4) Kubuntu Community - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicCommunity
[20:42] <rgreening> Council - We had two people stand down, and nominations for new members were proposed
[20:42]  * rgreening is wondering when the voting will be
[20:42] <rgreening> Riddell: ^
[20:42] <Riddell> that's starting tomorrow morning
[20:42] <rgreening> link? Riddell
[20:42] <Riddell> https://edge.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-council/+polls
[20:43] <rgreening> thanks ..
[20:43] <Riddell> but not until tomorrow, takes 12 hours to start apparantly
[20:43] <rgreening> 5) Kubuntu QA - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicQA
[20:43] <zooleen> H1all
[20:43] <rgreening> Update install/testing procedues is needed
[20:43] <nhandler> Riddell: Don't you mean https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/+polls
[20:43] <rgreening> Need to package/provide alternative network backends (for the just in case it fails)
[20:43] <Riddell> nhandler: yes I do thanks
[20:43] <rgreening> Beta test site/applet for collecting information
[20:43] <rgreening> Better conflict checking support for Kubuntu (KDE) packages
[20:44] <rgreening> 6) Social from the Start - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicSocialFromtheStart
[20:44] <rgreening> OpenDesktop widget on default desktop - show nearby interesting info
[20:44] <rgreening> MicroBlogging widget on default desktop - Kubuntu identia feed
[20:44] <rgreening> Choqok in main and on DVD
[20:44] <rgreening> Kopete facebook plugin on CD/DVD
[20:44] <rgreening> I think this is a great specification :P
[20:45] <rgreening> 7) Apport - http://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicApport
[20:45] <rgreening> Continue to use apport crash handler for KDE applications
[20:45] <rgreening> Update apport with KDE look/feel and maintain feature parity w/ ubuntu
[20:45] <rgreening> 8) Website - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicWebsite
[20:45] <rgreening> ryanakca is doing some fantastic stuff here...
[20:46] <rgreening> Completely refactor web site/wiki
[20:46] <rgreening> New theme
[20:46] <rgreening> Re-organize to make it easier to navigate
[20:46] <rgreening> And now something near and dear to us all...
[20:46] <rgreening> 9) Netbook - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicNetbook
[20:46] <rgreening> Upstream is working on a set of plasma widgets and default settings for Netbooks, MID, etc
[20:46] <rgreening> We will integrate those and make a Netbook version of Kubuntu
[20:46] <rgreening> Require new default settings, seed, desktop-netbook, and USB Creator
[20:47] <rgreening> Yay! we finally will have a Netbook version :P
[20:47] <Spittel1> nice
[20:47] <ulysses__> yeah
[20:47] <shadeslayer> really nic
[20:47] <nantal> yeah
[20:47] <rgreening> 3 cheers for that one :)
[20:47] <jscurtu> awsome.. to bad i sold mine ;-(
[20:47] <SylentBob> now I might actually buy one
[20:47] <rgreening> lol
[20:47] <rgreening> ok, next..
[20:47] <rgreening> 10) Webbrowser - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicWebbrowser
[20:47] <rgreening> Need better Web 2.0 support
[20:48] <rgreening> Konqueror has issues with many sites
[20:48] <rgreening> Arora uses WebKit and handles things better
[20:48] <rgreening> Arora lacks some features
[20:48] <jscurtu> alot of featers
[20:48] <rgreening> Work with upstream to address and make Arora default web browser for better user exp.
[20:48] <Dhraakellian> what's the status on Konqueror with WebKit?
[20:48] <rgreening> Konq will still be available for users who with to use it instead
[20:49] <rgreening> KDE WebKit is horrible... Dhraakellian :) it needz lots of love
[20:49] <rgreening> 11) IRC - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuKarmicIrc
[20:49] <rgreening> Quassel to remain on CD/DVD
[20:49] <rgreening> Work with upstream to fix shortcomings (like DCC) and some ui issues
[20:49] <rgreening> Konversation is now available, and may be ready to be a default again
[20:49] <jscurtu> what abou kaffeine?
[20:50] <rgreening> jscurtu: yeah, it's in again (yay - and will be default)
[20:50] <khaije|amalt> is konversation favored to be default?
[20:50] <rgreening> khaije|amalt: TBD
[20:50] <shadeslayer> ive started to like quassel
[20:50] <rgreening> 12) USB Creator - see Netbook spec
[20:50] <rgreening> This one is my baby
[20:50] <rgreening> :)
[20:51] <rgreening> I have been working hard to port the existing PyGtk creator to KDE. And mostly done.
[20:51] <rgreening> Beta preview available in my PPA
[20:51] <rgreening> link...
[20:52] <rgreening> https://launchpad.net/~roderick-greening
[20:52] <rgreening> only for Karmic
[20:52] <Monika|K> that's great, I have been waiting for a Qt USB Creator
[20:52] <rgreening> :P  your wait is ovah
[20:52] <rgreening> final one...
[20:52] <rgreening> 13) SMB Sharing
[20:52] <rgreening> File sharing is broken, and needs rework.
[20:52] <rgreening> Implement simple file sharing in appropriate places
[20:53] <MirzaD_> finaly :D
[20:53] <rgreening> Tonio_ is working on this. YAY!
[20:53] <rgreening> * As you can see, there is plenty of work to go around
[20:53] <Monika|K> wow, finally file sharing != put it on a USB stick ;)
[20:53] <rgreening> * How can you help out specifically for Karmic development?
[20:53] <rgreening> see - TODO List:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
[20:53] <Wormik> Thank you for good tutorials
[20:53] <rgreening> LOTS to do
[20:53] <rgreening> ** Q & A **
[20:54] <Dhraakellian> Monika|K: or make sure the other person has an ssh server for sftp://
[20:54] <rgreening> So, fire away...
[20:54] <Riddell> 20:35 < micmord> rgreening: what about relationships with upstream kde.org?
[20:54] <rgreening> :P
[20:54] <micmord> yep
[20:54] <Monika|K> yeah, right, Dhraakellian ;)
[20:54] <rafiii> Any improvement in the network manager plasmoid?
[20:54] <shadeslayer> rgreening: do we need to have coding skills in order to triage bugs??
[20:54] <ulysses__> rgreening: what about koffice 2?
[20:54] <rgreening> Well, I think we handle those pretty well. In fact, I should have meantioned we have some upstream devs here
[20:54] <ralf_> There is also Rekonq, wouldn't it be an option too?
[20:54] <shadeslayer> ralf_: rekonq is sweet
[20:55] <rgreening> Riddell for one... JontheEchidna for another...
[20:55] <Monika|K> what would one need coding skills for for triaging bugs, shadeslayer?
[20:55] <rgreening> shadeslayer: nope.
[20:55] <rgreening> ulysses__: it'll be in Universe
[20:55] <neversfelde> ulysses__: afaik does upstream not want distros to make it default
[20:55] <Spittel1> is it now possible to split konqeror 2 into more than 3 or 4 windows, this is very tricky with the new versions
[20:55] <shadeslayer> Monika|K: ok then what does one need to triage bugs?
[20:55]  * Dhraakellian has a Kubuntu 9.04 LiveCD now
[20:55] <Riddell> rafiii: network manager plasmoid is an ongoing job, it's been pretty slow though and there's still lots to shake out unfortunately
[20:55] <rgreening> Spittel1: never tested that
[20:55] <MirzaD_> when you mentioned contribution i don't recall any artwork and artists wanted ? Don't we need little personal touch on def KDE?
[20:55] <Riddell> ulysses__: koffice 2 devs say they don't want it in main so it'll be in universe until 2.1
[20:56] <Monika|K> shadeslayer install the same program, try to reproduce the bug, and under which circumstances it happens or does not happen
[20:56] <rafiii> thank you ;)
[20:56] <ulysses__> Riddell: neversfelde thanks the answer
[20:56] <Spittel1> in 8.04 i have by default 6 windows, very used to it ;)
[20:56] <Riddell> ralf_: rekonq is an option and  we have packages but upstream says he's still got major re-writing of it to do  and it's not a  good time to pick it up as  a default browser
[20:56] <Quintasan> MirzaD_: I think we need some artwork, see Todo list on wiki
[20:56] <rgreening> Riddell: thanks... :P
[20:56] <shadeslayer> ah..
[20:56] <JontheEchidna> webkitkde has improved recently, but it still isn't solid enough to replace KHTML for konq
[20:56] <dantalizing> rgreening Riddell: i know this is more of an 'ubuntu-one' question, but do you know when they intend to fully support u1 in kde?
[20:57] <rgreening> MirzaD_: yeah, we can always use help wit hArtwork.
[20:57] <jscurtu> what happend to QtFirefox
[20:57] <vorian> that would be a question for the ubuntu-one folks really
[20:57] <rgreening> dantalizing: they talked about a client, but not a target timeline. IIRC
[20:57]  * Quintasan wonder is QtFirefox still alive
[20:57] <Riddell> dantalizing: no concrete timetable but they are looking for a developer to contract or hire I believe so hopefully that'll get moving
[20:57] <Tscheesy_> rgreening: what about Moblin and their Broadband integration of UMTS and eq. - will this find its way to KNetworkmanager ?
[20:57] <apachelogger> jscurtu: wasn't pursued
[20:57] <dantalizing> rgreening: Riddell thx
[20:57] <apachelogger> it is as broken as it was months ago ;-)
[20:57] <Dhraakellian> jscurtu: which attempt?  it seems to be something that's done every year or two and then allowed to languish
[20:58]  * dantalizing owes rgreening a pastry
[20:58] <Riddell> jscurtu: Qt Firefox hasn't seen much change since the inital port, I hope Nokia will pick it up again
[20:58] <rgreening> Tscheesy: not sure on that one.
[20:58] <rafiii> is qtcurve still here for gtk apps?
[20:58] <Riddell> 20:13 < BluesKaj> rgreening, is the packagekit gonna be dumped or improved ?.it's awfully flaky and unstable
[20:58] <Dhraakellian> Riddell: how serious is that hope?
[20:58] <shtylman> Quintasan: highly doubt it...highly
[20:58] <rgreening> BluesKaj: right. KPackaKit is here to stay.,. but vastly improved
[20:58] <Quintasan> shtylman: oh hi :) how's going with OO.o? :3
[20:58] <Riddell> BluesKaj: there's plenty more work to be done on packagekit for sure, but the nice thing is we're not maintaining it on our own (unlike deb specific package managers) so there's plenty of people who want to work on it
[20:59] <Riddell> Dhraakellian: my hope is serious, I've no idea of nokia's internal plans though
[20:59] <JontheEchidna> rafiii: QtCurve should be the default for GTK apps for a long while unless something better appears
[20:59] <rgreening> Ok, I think my time is up...
[20:59] <shtylman> Quintasan: it goes...no recent work on it cause I have been out of town...but mostly it is in a happy place and really just waiting for initial packaging
[20:59]  * Quintasan proposed using Shaman but it seems it won't be ready till karmic+1
[20:59] <Riddell> thanks rgreening!
[20:59] <rgreening> I'd like to thank everyone for coming
[20:59] <msdlk45> what about an easier handling of X.509v3 handling in kmail (kleopatra) in conjunction with pinentry - it's a pain to get this running
[20:59] <shtylman> I have moved on to the installer work now mostly
[20:59] <rgreening> and for the great (I mean AWESOME) interaction
[20:59] <vorian> thanks rgreening
[20:59] <rafiii> JontheEchidna: Thank you
[20:59] <Quintasan> shtylman: that's good :)
[20:59] <Tscheesy_> many thanks to the devs - you do a fantastic job
[20:59] <Riddell> ~twitter update Ruby tutorial starting in #kubuntu-devel
[20:59] <kubotu> status updated
[21:00]  * SylentBob cues keyboard cat.
[21:00] <Quintasan> apachelogger: I'm here :>
[21:00] <pan_de_> thx for the infos
[21:00]  * Dhraakellian will be right back
[21:00] <nantal> rgreening, thanks for this interesting presentation
[21:00]  * Dhraakellian goes to grab the laptop and boot up the liveCD
[21:00] <Quintasan> rgreening: thanks :)
[21:00] <micmord> rgreening: thanks
[21:00] <SylentBob> thanks you guys
[21:00] <Quintasan> kubotu: order cookies for rgreening
[21:00]  * kubotu slides a whole bunch of world's finest cookies down the bar to rgreening.
[21:00] <apachelogger> Do we need a break? I found that load of information quite exhausting :P
[21:00] <jscurtu> thanks rgreening
[21:00] <shadeslayer> rgreening: thanks alot
[21:01] <Riddell> apachelogger: let's take a two minute breather
[21:01] <rgreening> :P
[21:01] <apachelogger> agreed
[21:01] <Dhraakellian> apachelogger: stalling for more time?
[21:01] <Spittel1> can you answer questions about amarok or is this the wrong chan?
[21:01] <ulysses__> bogiii
[21:01] <apachelogger> Dhraakellian: maybe? :)
[21:01] <bognarandras> kuss
[21:02] <nantal> bognarandras, lehetnel kedvesebb .)
[21:02] <nantal> :)
[21:02] <bognarandras> nem :)
[21:02] <nantal> bognarandras, tul sok kavet ittal?
[21:02] <sven423> Spittel1: the amarok tutorial is later ;)
[21:02] <Spittel1> alright, thx
[21:03] <bognarandras> miért beszélsz hozzám ember?
[21:03] <Riddell> apachelogger: head clear?
[21:03] <Quintasan> nanta, bognarandras: please use english or move to query, also #kubuntu-offtopic for chatting
[21:03] <apachelogger> yes, lets get started
[21:03] <vorian> puts "Hi Apachelogger!".reverse.upcase
[21:03] <Riddell> ladies and gentlmen...
[21:04] <Riddell> my very favourite apachelogger is going to introduce us to Ruby
[21:04] <Riddell> go apachelogger!
[21:04] <apachelogger> Well, rgreening did intro himself, something I didn't plan on :S
[21:04] <apachelogger> https://edge.launchpad.net/~apachelogger
[21:04] <apachelogger> that is me
[21:04] <apachelogger> and I am the Chief Unicorn of Kubuntu
[21:04] <apachelogger> meaning, I am responsible for breaking things so that others have something to work on
[21:04]  * Dhraakellian boots the liveCD on the laptop
[21:05] <apachelogger> well, not seriously, but that is also not why you are here, right?
[21:05] <apachelogger> so
[21:05] <apachelogger> Who is here for the ruby talk?
[21:05] <IndigoJo> me!
[21:05] <Kabal458> me!
[21:05]  * mzaugg applauds
[21:05] <ulysses__> me!
[21:05] <Dhraakellian> me
[21:05] <PolyC> me
[21:05] <micmord> me too
[21:05] <WielkieG> simply me too
[21:05] <Monika|K> me
[21:05] <mattbd> me
[21:05] <pan_de_> me
[21:05] <gcala> me
[21:05] <adrian__> me
[21:05] <Dhraakellian> actually, I thought it was going to be a python talk! ohnoes! ;)
[21:05] <CarotNL> me
[21:05]  * YenTheFirst <-
[21:05] <nantal> me
[21:05] <dvda> me too
[21:05]  * Quintasan is raising slowly form his steat, ME!
[21:05] <shadeslayer> mee
[21:06] <Quintasan> s/steat/seat
[21:06] <apachelogger> Good, I depend on your questions
[21:06] <vorian> puts "vorian is here to learn".upcase
[21:06] <YenTheFirst> er, is it just a ruby tutorial, or is it kubuntu specific?
[21:06] <apachelogger> everytime I talk about something, the content is worth 10 minutes
[21:06] <apachelogger> so unless you want a 50 minutes break you better ask a lot of questions
[21:06] <apachelogger> YenTheFirst: KDE specific
[21:06] <apachelogger> though
[21:06] <YenTheFirst> ahh good. thank you
[21:07] <apachelogger> let's get started
[21:07] <apachelogger> # I LUV MY RUBY!!!!!
[21:07] <apachelogger> #
[21:07] <apachelogger> # With Apachelogger aka Harald
[21:07] <IndigoJo> ruby ruby ruby ruby!
[21:07] <apachelogger> talk = Apachelogger::Talks::Ruby.new(parent="apachelogger")
[21:07] <apachelogger> talk.start
[21:07] <apachelogger> that is fancy for: I am going to start ;-)
[21:07] <apachelogger> talk.say_hello
[21:07] <apachelogger> Hello and welcome to my monologue about my ruby.
[21:07] <apachelogger> #################################################################################################
[21:07] <apachelogger> talk.install_deps(["ruby","irb","ruby-kde4"])
[21:07] <Dhraakellian> (so if this tutorial is more KDE-specific than kubuntu-specific...)
[21:08] <apachelogger> First we ought to get dirty and install stuff necessary for this to work properly. So please all run the following command in a terminal
[21:08] <apachelogger> sudo apt-get install ruby irb ruby-kde4
[21:08] <apachelogger> Dhraakellian: isn't it the same anyway? ;-)
[21:08] <apachelogger> That command should equip you with everything you'll need for basic Ruby(KDE) development.
[21:08] <apachelogger> REALLY IMPORTANT!
[21:08] <Dhraakellian> apachelogger: there are other KDE distros
[21:09] <Dhraakellian> it's all a matter of which computer I'm working from
[21:09] <apachelogger> ................
[21:09] <apachelogger> ..........................
[21:09] <apachelogger> ..................................................
[21:09] <apachelogger> ................................................................
[21:09] <apachelogger> I certainly hope you got a super fast intarwebs
[21:09] <IndigoJo> 2mins to go by current download speed
[21:09] <odites> hi to all
[21:09]  * khaije|amalt 's aptitude sez "ding!"
[21:10] <apachelogger> Anyone else dingish already?
[21:10] <ulysses__> ding
[21:10] <Kabal458> ding
[21:10] <dvda> ding
[21:10] <IndigoJo> 1 1/2 mins
[21:10]  * Quintasan was prepared for this
[21:10] <pein> hello
[21:10] <Monika|K> finished
[21:10] <khaije|amalt> lolz @ Quintasan
[21:10]  * YenTheFirst is on KDE3 at the moment, I'll follow for now, and retrace later on a live boot or somesuch
[21:10]  * apachelogger thinks Quintasan cheated
[21:10]  * IndigoJo thought he was cos when I installed ruby, it installed a few pkgs with "kde4" in the name
[21:11] <Spittel1> hehe, i'm not alone ;)
[21:11] <javi> done
[21:11] <WielkieG> if libkde4-ruby on debian is equivalent of ruby-kde4, I'm done
[21:11] <pan_de_> i'm on opensuse :D - only following by reading ;)
[21:11] <apachelogger> WielkieG: should be
[21:11] <apachelogger> ok, lets go ahead
[21:11] <apachelogger> #################################################################################################
[21:11] <apachelogger> talk.why_ruby
[21:11] <IndigoJo> pan_de: just go into yast2 and do a package search for qt4 and ruby
[21:11] <MirzaD_> this is going to overload ubuntu repository servers :D:D:D
[21:11] <nantal> oh no, 11 minutes, and i ready
[21:11] <shadeslayer> done
[21:12] <apachelogger> You can catchup :)
[21:12] <apachelogger> First, lets sort one of the most important questions in all the universe. Why would I want to use Ruby. The answer is considerable simple.
[21:12] <apachelogger> You want to use Ruby because C is a PITA, C++ code is bloated, C# is slow, Python code is a mess and Ruby code is simply beautiful. It's as simple as that :P
[21:12]  * IndigoJo is all set
[21:12] <pein> must install libkde4-ruby?
[21:12] <javi> omg :D
[21:12] <Monika|K> lol
[21:12] <Dhraakellian> (ah, good to know I'm not the only openSUSEr here)
[21:12] <odites> IppatsuMan, °_°
[21:12] <apachelogger> To say it with kathy griffins words: Python can suck it! :P
[21:13] <Sime> apachelogger: well I'm glad that discussion is over. ;-)
[21:13] <apachelogger> ...allegedly
[21:13] <apachelogger> Sime: absolutely :P
[21:13]  * YenTheFirst adds "and perl is ugly"
[21:13] <apachelogger> #################################################################################################
[21:13] <apachelogger> talk.basics
[21:13] <rgreening> PERL == teh awesome :P
[21:13] <apachelogger> While you're downloding all that stuff I'll just go ahead and outline some basics.
[21:13] <apachelogger> a) irb = interactive ruby (shell)
[21:13] <IndigoJo> ruby has the conciseness of perl and proper OO
[21:13] <BluesKaj> ok Riddell , appreciate the reply ..but i'll continue to use apt/aptitude/adept for the time being, til they become depracated
[21:13] <apachelogger> b) irb is especially used for code testing
[21:14] <apachelogger> c) irb is super verbose and likes to call almost everyone nil :P
[21:14] <apachelogger> quite rude TBH
[21:14] <shankhs> TBH?
[21:14] <apachelogger> to be honest
[21:14] <apachelogger> Everyone finsihed downloading now?
[21:14] <Dhraakellian> to be horrific
[21:14] <pan_de_> ok, installed ruby 1.8.7 (2008-08-11 patchlevel 72) [x86_64-linux]
[21:14] <shankhs> ya
[21:14] <ulysses__> yeo
[21:14] <ulysses__> yep
[21:14] <nantal> yep
[21:14] <micmord> yep
[21:14] <apachelogger> So let's use irb to take a look at some basic ruby stuff.
[21:14] <CarotNL> yo
[21:14] <shadeslayer> yo
[21:14] <Dhraakellian> apachelogger: I'm not seeing irb or ruby-kde4 when trying to install on teh liveCD
[21:14] <javi> yup
[21:14] <apachelogger> start irb from a terminal
[21:14] <shadeslayer> CarotNL: nice :)
[21:14] <apachelogger> like that:
[21:14] <Kombat> yup
[21:14] <apachelogger> irb
[21:14] <Dhraakellian> already have them on my suse install though
[21:14] <apachelogger> easy, huh? ;-)
[21:15] <shadeslayer> done
[21:15] <PolyC> yep
[21:15] <nantal> yeah
[21:15] <apachelogger> Dhraakellian: apt-get update maybe
[21:15] <pan_de_> irb(main):001:0>
[21:15] <CarotNL> done
[21:15] <mzaugg> >>
[21:15] <ulysses__> yep
[21:15] <Dhraakellian> ah, universe
[21:15] <apachelogger> pan_de_ is the winner of this round :D
[21:15] <apachelogger> fastest irb starter
[21:15] <pan_de_> :)
[21:15] <WielkieG> konsole & always on top is here
[21:15] <apachelogger> ######### UNO
[21:15] <javi> yakuake ftw
[21:15] <apachelogger> To calculate you just type the calculation:
[21:15] <khaije|amalt> yakuake ftw
[21:15] <khaije|amalt> lol
[21:15] <apachelogger> 2+3
[21:16] <apachelogger> I know without using irb that this returns 5 ;-)
[21:16] <shadeslayer> 5
[21:16] <micmord> => 5
[21:16] <shadeslayer> :D
[21:16] <pan_de_> => 6
[21:16] <Kabal458> => 20
[21:16] <pan_de_> :D
[21:16] <apachelogger> if it does not, your PC is broken and you should buy a new one
[21:16] <nantal> :D
[21:16] <shadeslayer> irb is my new calculator
[21:16] <micmord> lol
[21:16] <apachelogger> visit dell.com for options

[21:16] <apachelogger> 3/2
[21:16] <apachelogger> what does that return?
[21:16] <IndigoJo> 1
[21:16] <rgreening> 1
[21:16] <WielkieG> integer 1
[21:16] <apachelogger> AHHHH!!! broken!!!!
[21:16]  * Dhraakellian just runs irb on the suse box
[21:17] <shankhs> 3.0/2.0
[21:17] <WielkieG> not a float ;]
[21:17] <rgreening> lol
[21:17] <shankhs> ?
[21:17] <apachelogger> Clearly wrong.... well, unless... Rule #1: Ruby only floats if you float. Where float means using a float value (such as 1.5, while 1 is called a string).
[21:17] <IndigoJo> so 3.0/2 ?
[21:17] <pan_de_> irb(main):003:0> 3/2.0
[21:17] <apachelogger> shankhs: yep, very good
[21:17] <IndigoJo> => 1.5
[21:17] <shankhs> is 3.0 not a string in ruby?
[21:17] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: this is kinda like C
[21:17] <apachelogger> pan_de_ and IndigoJo are winners!
[21:17]  * YenTheFirst thought 1 is a fixnum, and "1" is a string. </pedantic>
[21:17] <Quintasan> lol
[21:17] <IndigoJo> shankhs: '3.0' is a string
[21:17] <IndigoJo> 3.0 is a float
[21:17] <apachelogger> shankhs had a good try but made me work too much :P
[21:18] <shankhs> :)
[21:18] <IndigoJo> irb(main):004:0> '3.0'
[21:18] <IndigoJo> => "3.0"
[21:18] <apachelogger> you don't need to make it 3.0/2.0 but any of those needs to be float to return a float
[21:18] <YenTheFirst> also 3.0.to_s is a string
[21:18] <apachelogger> Much better :)
[21:18] <YenTheFirst> and 3.to_f is a float
[21:18] <apachelogger> YenTheFirst did his homework
[21:18] <apachelogger> or he is cheating
[21:18] <apachelogger> maybe both
[21:18] <apachelogger> Lets move on
[21:18] <YenTheFirst> definitely both. :P
[21:18] <IndigoJo> cos everything is an object, no primitives right apachelogger?
[21:18] <shadeslayer> uh.... ruby n00b here...
[21:19] <apachelogger> IndigoJo: righto
[21:19] <Dhraakellian> yup... uncommenting those Universe lines did the trick
[21:19] <apachelogger> though I don't want to digg into that :D
[21:19] <apachelogger> *move*
[21:19] <apachelogger> ######### Hola!
[21:19] <apachelogger> Next take a look at strings:
[21:19] <nielsslot> apachelogger: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/206518/ << is my computer broken now?? :P
[21:19] <apachelogger>   "Hola!"
[21:19] <khaije|amalt> apachelogger: is the typecasting done per statement or following the Order of Operations
[21:19] <Dhraakellian> still more convenient to use the desktop
[21:20] <apachelogger> nielsslot: yes, it is, please visit dell.com :P
[21:20] <apachelogger> Clearly the "" make the string a string, like when we reuse the calculation from above:
[21:20] <jussi01> can I have a grumble at someone?
[21:20] <apachelogger> khaije|amalt: can discuss this later
[21:20] <khaije|amalt> apachelogger: k
[21:20] <apachelogger> let's try something different
[21:20] <apachelogger>   "2" + "3"
[21:20] <apachelogger> Fancy? Ain't it? ;-)
[21:20] <dvda> => "23"
[21:20] <apachelogger> Though, we might want to output that stuff to the ouside world:
[21:21] <apachelogger>   puts "Hola World!
[21:21] <CarotNL> => "23"
[21:21] <Dhraakellian> is there any difference between ' and "?
[21:21] <apachelogger> Dhraakellian: not really
[21:21] <javi> irb(main):014:0> puts "Hola Mundo!"
[21:21] <javi> Hola Mundo!
[21:21] <javi> => nil
[21:21] <javi> what's that nil?
[21:21] <nielsslot> Dhraakellian: yes, but you won't notice it at this point
[21:21] <pan_de_> not in list?
[21:22] <apachelogger> javi: the return value is nil
[21:22] <apachelogger> i.e. the puts method doesn't return any value
[21:22] <Monika|K> nil is like empty, nullpointer, nothing
[21:22] <javi> ok
[21:22] <apachelogger> it just takes the string and spits it out
[21:22] <WielkieG> it's null, or void in that case ;]
[21:22] <apachelogger> I like void :)
[21:22] <apachelogger> Now you might wonder why the method is called puts, while it is called print almost every other programming language. To answer that, just try with print:
[21:22] <apachelogger>   print "Hola World!"
[21:22] <pan_de_> one question to the shell irb(main):009:0 <- what is the meaning of the last zero?
[21:23] <Quintasan> no newline?
[21:23] <apachelogger> The most visible difference is that puts attaches a newline (i.e. line break) to the string, while print does not, so in almost all cases puts > print.
[21:23] <shankhs> print "Hello World!"
[21:23] <shadeslayer> Hola World=> nil
[21:23] <dvda> Herro World!=> nil
[21:23] <apachelogger> pan_de_: I honestly never wondered about that :)
[21:23] <Dhraakellian> Gravity is a myth: the world sucks.  I will therefore not greet it.=> nil
[21:23] <apachelogger> uh
[21:23] <apachelogger> Dhraakellian++
[21:23] <WielkieG> puts is print with \n
[21:23] <shankhs> so what should we use puts or print?
[21:24] <shankhs> better prog option
[21:24] <shankhs> ?
[21:24] <apachelogger> WielkieG: simply put, there is more to it, but usually you don't need to worry about that
[21:24] <IndigoJo> shankhs: if you want to output a discrete message, use puts
[21:24]  * shadeslayer rewires brain to use puts
[21:24] <apachelogger> you can also do
[21:24] <IndigoJo> if you think you might have to print more than what's in that command, use print
[21:24]  * Quintasan still types cout everywhere
[21:24] <apachelogger> print "Hola World!\n"
[21:24] <IndigoJo> as in print "Hello "
[21:24] <apachelogger> will have the same visible effect as puts
[21:24]  * shadeslayer hi5's Quintasan
[21:24] <IndigoJo> then print "world"
[21:25] <IndigoJo> but puts "Hello world"
[21:25] <apachelogger> Quintasan: oh dear :D
[21:25] <apachelogger> Of course you can do all sorts of fancy things with a string:
[21:25] <apachelogger>   puts "Hola World!".reverse.upcase
[21:25] <apachelogger> basic encryption that is :P
[21:25] <odites> !DLROW ALOH
[21:25] <javi> !EMOSEWA
[21:26] <Quintasan> Take over Nigeria, huh?
[21:26] <apachelogger> see, even the bot doesn't understand it :D
[21:26] <apachelogger> Any more questions about that kind of stuff?
[21:26] <apachelogger> apparently not
[21:26] <apachelogger> ######### Everything comes to an end :(
[21:26] <pan_de_> i think it's clear :)
[21:26] <apachelogger> In Ruby, everything comes to an end, quite literally, for example an if statement looks like this:
[21:26] <apachelogger>   if 0 == 0
[21:26] <apachelogger>     puts "Hola World"
[21:26] <apachelogger>   end
[21:26] <PolyC> so far this is similar to python
[21:26] <apachelogger> This applies to about everything you start... if, for, class, module...
[21:27] <shankhs_> hey I am here
[21:27] <apachelogger> ######### ...unless you are trying to write a book in Ruby syntax...
[21:27] <apachelogger> In Ruby you can also do:
[21:27] <apachelogger> puts "Hola World" if 0 == 0
[21:27] <apachelogger> Sounds a lot nicer, looks a lot nicer, is a lot nicer. "if not" is also not nice enough, we use "unless":
[21:27] <fq1212> like in perl
[21:27] <apachelogger> puts "Hola World" unless 0 == 1
[21:27] <apachelogger> And while we are writing a book:
[21:28] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: so if and for are equivalents of C/C++ ?
[21:28] <apachelogger> 3.times { print "Oh dear!\n" }
[21:28] <Dhraakellian> oh, someone before was wondering about that last :0?
[21:28] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: pretty much
[21:28] <apachelogger> just without the brackets
[21:28] <nielsslot> for in ruby is more like a foreach in C++
[21:29] <shankhs_> foreach in C++?
[21:29] <apachelogger> Anyway
[21:29] <apachelogger> We learn: write books in Ruby syntax and you'll probably be pronounced nerd of the century.
[21:29] <WielkieG> foreach in Qt/C++
[21:29] <shadeslayer> ah...code can get pretty confusing if we dont indent and use brackets
[21:29] <apachelogger> Really something you want to do
[21:29] <apachelogger> #################################################################################################
[21:29] <apachelogger> talk.kde_basics
[21:29] <apachelogger> Now we get to the really nice stuff :P
[21:30] <apachelogger> You can obtain a simple hello world application at http://aplg.kollide.net/kubuntu/ktd-ruby/hola1.rb
[21:30] <apachelogger> just save it some directory and be ready to run it
[21:30] <apachelogger> You can do that by ruby hola1.rb
[21:30] <Dhraakellian> apachelogger: any particular reason fon the print in the 3.times example?
[21:30] <Dhraakellian> rather than puts?
[21:30] <apachelogger> Dhraakellian: yeah, sounds more english ;-)
[21:30] <Dhraakellian> ah
[21:30] <apachelogger> which is important if you write a book
[21:31] <apachelogger> Everyone got the application?
[21:31] <Dhraakellian> tmtowtdi, so do it the most readable way?
[21:31] <Kabal458> yay ruby bindings
[21:31] <apachelogger> Does it work for everyone?
[21:31] <techleopard> i did
[21:31] <apachelogger> If it doesn't work => blame rgreening
[21:31] <Quintasan> yup
[21:31] <pan_de_> hola1.rb:3:in `require': no such file to load -- korundum4 (LoadError)
[21:32] <PolyC> yep
[21:32] <apachelogger> pan_de_: ruby-kde4
[21:32] <pan_de_> ok
[21:32] <shankhs_> how to run the ruby file?
[21:32] <rgreening> lol. not this time :)
[21:32] <apachelogger> ruby hola1.rb
[21:32] <IndigoJo> pan_de_ korumdum4 is the KDE ruby bindings
[21:32] <shankhs_> i think i missed that
[21:32] <WielkieG> nice button with Hola World inside
[21:32] <micmord> it works also in karmic
[21:32]  * Quintasan went a step forward and modified it to show something else
[21:32] <khaije|amalt> apachelogger: is the button supposed to do anything?
[21:32] <apachelogger> nope
[21:32] <Dhraakellian> hola1.rb: cannot connect to X server <--should I be running this outside of screen?
[21:32] <khaije|amalt> k, looks good here
[21:32] <apachelogger> Dhraakellian: yup
[21:33] <apachelogger> The app is incredibly useless :D
[21:33] <shankhs_> :D
[21:33] <apachelogger> like, really, not useful at all, not even to waste disk space, because it is so darn small
[21:33] <dvda> yeah
[21:33] <nantal> yeah, it works
[21:33] <Dhraakellian> apachelogger: it gives you something about which to rant
[21:33] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: nice
[21:33] <shankhs_> all Hello World apps are like this
[21:33] <apachelogger> Please open it in your editor of choice
[21:34] <Dhraakellian> shankhs_: well, my dad's hello world was xyzzy.com, iirc.  It just printed "nothing happens"
[21:34] <apachelogger> We're going to walk through it, so we have at least covered the boring basics
[21:34] <apachelogger> If you know a bit about KDE programming, there won't be anything new in here, the ruby syntax is not too different either :)
[21:34] <apachelogger> The first thing you'll need to do when creating a RubyKDE application is require korundum4...
[21:34] <shankhs_> need to learn KDE prog?
[21:34] <apachelogger> which is were pan_de_ failed ;-)
[21:34] <khaije|amalt> apachelogger: recommended IDE?
[21:35] <apachelogger> so really, if the require fails, the app fails
[21:35]  * Dhraakellian is wanting to get into Ruby and/or Python specifically as an easier way to get into Qt/KDE programming
[21:35] <apachelogger> khaije|amalt: kate + plugins + konsole widget
[21:35] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: pluggins?
[21:35] <shadeslayer> -g
[21:35] <Dhraakellian> konsole widget?
[21:35] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: checkout the kate settings
[21:35] <javi> + pizza
[21:35] <apachelogger> Dhraakellian: see bottom of kate ;-)
[21:35] <Dhraakellian> how 'bout vim + yakuake?
[21:35] <Dhraakellian> aah
[21:35] <apachelogger> So!
[21:36] <Quintasan> javi: also coke
[21:36] <Dhraakellian> sorry, I was thinking of plasmoids
[21:36] <Kabal458> gedit ftw :p jks
[21:36] <apachelogger> Dhraakellian: depends on teh kind of project for me
[21:36] <apachelogger> require is the method of choice when loading a library into your application, in this case we require korundum4, which is the all fancy name for KDE's ruby bindings.
[21:36] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: which pluggin?
[21:36] <Dhraakellian> (I only barely scratch the surface of Vim, so switching to Kate probably wouldn't hurt too much
[21:36] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: symbol viewer most importantly
[21:36] <Dhraakellian> )
[21:36] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: no such pluggin...ill have to install it
[21:37] <apachelogger> Now that we have required korundum ... really, don't ask me about the name ...
[21:37] <apachelogger> Next are the about data and command line argument handling, for about any application you'll need this portion or Ruby will blow up. Fortunately you can copy that stuff and edit as necessary.
[21:37] <apachelogger> Here we also see the first variable
[21:37] <apachelogger> Called 'about'
[21:37] <Dhraakellian> I just lost The Name?
[21:38] <Quintasan> s/Name/Game
[21:38] <apachelogger> So, who doesn't know what object oriented programming is?
[21:38] <Dhraakellian> V whfg ybfg Gur Tnzr
[21:38] <apachelogger> because, we really need to clear that before we can continue
[21:38]  * Dhraakellian objects!
[21:39] <apachelogger> not that kind of object :P
[21:39] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: only a tiny nit
[21:39]  * Quintasan understand's it so-so, little explanation wont hurt
[21:39] <shadeslayer> *bit
[21:39] <apachelogger> Simply put: what we do is create objects and let them interact
[21:39] <rdale_> another useful printing method is called 'p' - you can try 'p about'
[21:39] <apachelogger> an object holds certain properties that we can influence, or not
[21:39] <nantal> apachelogger, i don't know, what is obejct oriented programming
[21:39] <apachelogger> depending ont he underlying construction plan of that object
[21:39] <apachelogger> this construction plan is called a class
[21:39] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: things like classes and structures?
[21:40] <shankhs_> nantal: go to http://www.aonaware.com/OOP1.htm nice place to start
[21:40] <apachelogger> KDE::AboutData is a class
[21:40] <nantal> thanks
[21:40] <apachelogger> we use it to create an object with the name about
[21:40] <apachelogger> that is basically what line 6 does
[21:40] <apachelogger> Everyone at least has an idea what an object is? :)
[21:40] <galtom> yep
[21:41] <WielkieG> and line 7 too ;]
[21:41] <shankhs_> apachelogger: ya
[21:41] <pan_de_> yes
[21:41] <shadeslayer> yep
[21:41] <apachelogger> ok :)
[21:41] <apachelogger> lets jump right ahead to line 12
[21:41] <apachelogger> Now comes the fun part. First it creates an object "a" of the class KDE::Application (aka KApplication). For both KDE and Qt classes the name scheme is KDE:: or Qt::, so QWidget would be Qt::Widget.
[21:41] <PolyC> yep
[21:42] <apachelogger> So again, we have the class KDE::Application which is the construction plan we use to create the object.
[21:42] <apachelogger> So far so good?
[21:42] <galtom> yes
[21:42] <pan_de_> are both KDE and Application classes?
[21:42] <IndigoJo> yes
[21:42]  * shadeslayer screams for more
[21:42] <apachelogger> pan_de_: I'll come to that later
[21:42] <pan_de_> ok
[21:42] <YenTheFirst> and for real mind-bending fun, in ruby, even classes are objects. woah.
[21:42] <apachelogger> *move*
[21:43] <apachelogger> The KApplicaiton object is followed by the creation of a "hello" object of the class Qt::PushButton which is ultimately able to use a translated string (considering it is available ;-)).
[21:43] <khaije|amalt> i have some questions about the "." operator
[21:43] <IndigoJo> apachelogger: it might be worth noting that in ruby, it's Qt::Class and KDE::Class, not QClass and KClass
[21:44] <apachelogger> IndigoJo: didn't I do that?
[21:44] <apachelogger> khaije|amalt: you could also use ::
[21:44] <IndigoJo> ah yes sorry I missed that
[21:44] <apachelogger> I just prefer . for methods
[21:44] <IndigoJo> I see it now up @ the top of my screen
[21:44] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: what does a.i18n do??
[21:44] <apachelogger> allows the string to be translated via the KApplication object
[21:45] <shadeslayer> ah..
[21:45] <apachelogger> so, this hello world application could actually be translated into another language ;-)
[21:45] <apachelogger> Then it just defines hello as the application's top widget, displays hello and executes the application.
[21:45] <micmord> ruby hola1.rb --author
[21:45] <apachelogger> AFAIK this workflow is about the same throughout all supported programming languages, though Ruby is the only one where it looks beautiful ;-)
[21:45] <micmord> QApplication::installTranslator: Please instantiate the QApplication object first
[21:45] <micmord> Please use http://bugs.kde.org to report bugs.
[21:45] <javi> OT, what does i18n stands for? i can understand l10n, but no idea of i18n
[21:45] <khaije|amalt> apachelogger: interchangable? i was wondering if they are for object access (as usually are) or something else, in the "my name".reverse.uppercase example they seemed to work sequentially
[21:45] <WielkieG> what's the second argument of Qt::PushButton.new?
[21:45] <apachelogger> javi: internationization
[21:46] <apachelogger> WielkieG: the parent
[21:46] <WielkieG> ah, thanks ;]
[21:46] <apachelogger> oh
[21:46] <apachelogger> actually
[21:46] <apachelogger> WielkieG: it is the text :)
[21:46] <apachelogger> You see, the properties of objects can sometimes be influenced right at their creation
[21:47] <shankhs_> apachelogger: I am very excited tell us some resources where we can explore KDE wid ruby more
[21:47] <Dhraakellian> and I can't see the method names with this color scheme.  ouchie
[21:47] <apachelogger> at times you want or need to do it later
[21:47] <apachelogger> for example a.topWidget = hello
[21:47] <apachelogger> we influence the topWidget property of the KApplication
[21:47] <apachelogger> shankhs_: api.kde.org ;-)
[21:48] <apachelogger> so, let's move on, or we aren't gonna make it ;-)
[21:48] <apachelogger> #################################################################################################
[21:48] <apachelogger> talk.kde_advanced
[21:48] <apachelogger> halo1.rb is really boring stuff, so let's take a look at more advanced Ruby syntaxing. You can find hola2.rb at http://aplg.kollide.net/kubuntu/ktd-ruby/hola2.rb
[21:48] <apachelogger> again you can run it with ruby hola2.rb
[21:48] <apachelogger> Then open it in an editor, so we can walk through it again.
[21:49] <apachelogger> hola2.rb is actually based on hola1.rb
[21:49] <apachelogger> The advanced version still requires korundum4, and there didn't change a whole lot at the bottom either. So lets take a look at those changes first.
[21:49] <Monika|K> java what would i10n stand for?
[21:49] <apachelogger> i10n? unkown to me!
[21:49] <apachelogger> a) "a" became $aPony
[21:49] <apachelogger> b) Instead of our Qt::PushButton it now uses My::Widget????
[21:49] <apachelogger> actually Insane::Widget :D
[21:50] <apachelogger> much more fancy name
[21:50] <apachelogger> I'll explain a) later, b) however is quite easy to figure out. Above the old code I have added a module Insane and a class Widget, which implements a Qt::Widget.
[21:50] <apachelogger> so, the class is the "construction plan" of this new widget
[21:50] <khaije|amalt> snazzy
[21:50] <apachelogger> So, first we need to find out what a module is. Simply put: a module is some kind of namespace. It can contain classes as well as methods or constants. So, really a module is for the better part just a logical group. For example the group Qt contains all Qt classes, methods and constants...
[21:50] <shankhs_> whats this: #!/usr/bin/env ruby
[21:51] <IndigoJo> shankhs: it tells bash to run the script using ruby
[21:51] <apachelogger> shankhs_: the fancy version of #!/usr/bin/ruby
[21:51] <khaije|amalt> shankhs_: tells bash that the file is a ruby script
[21:51] <shankhs_> o
[21:51] <apachelogger> Though, modules have another great advantage. They provide Mixins. Explaining this in depth would take quit some time, so let's just say a Mixin is a really fancy thing you can use across classes to provide similar methods etc.
[21:51] <apachelogger> The french electro duo Justice also does a lot of mixins, though I doubt that is related to Ruby.
[21:51] <apachelogger> If you want to go serious with Ruby, you really should be checking out Mixins, though it's not necessary for this tutorial :)
[21:51] <shankhs_> and whats the need of it when you are invoking as ruby hola2.rb
[21:51] <shankhs_> ?
[21:52] <apachelogger> shankhs_: no, but to invoke it as ./hola2.rb you'd need to chmod +x hola2.rb first ;-)
[21:52] <pan_de_> is a module like package in java?
[21:52] <apachelogger> Don't know java
[21:52] <WielkieG> it's similar to C++'s namespace
[21:52] <apachelogger> yep
[21:53] <apachelogger> Let's continue....
[21:53] <apachelogger> Every Ruby class got an initialize method, whether you have one in your code or not, whether you like it or not, really, Ruby is quite the dictator in this regard. This method gets called once you create an object using new() (as hola2.rb does using My::Widget.new). Our Widget class is a special example because it implements a Qt::Widget, so we need to ensure the original initialize of Qt::Widget gets taken into account. We
[21:53] <apachelogger>  archive this by using "super". So whenever you implement a KDE or Qt widget you'll have to call at least super in the initialize method, otherwise your application will probably explode.
[21:53] <Dhraakellian> like a constructor?
[21:53] <apachelogger> The following stuff is really Qt basics. The application creates a vertical box layout (Qt::VBoxLayout) and adds to that layout a label, a lineedit (i.e. a text field to enter text) and the old hello button.
[21:53] <javi> Monika|K: l10n -> latin
[21:53] <Dhraakellian> will it explode with pretty colors?
[21:54] <IndigoJo> javi: l10n = localisation
[21:54] <Dhraakellian> localization
[21:54] <IndigoJo> l, 10 letters, n
[21:54] <Dhraakellian> beaten to it by a commonwealth speller
[21:54] <apachelogger> You should be noticing some things here. First of all we are referencing $aPony, and this is the reason the variable got a $ to begin with :)
[21:54] <apachelogger> Ruby knows 4 variable types (though technically 6), they are differing by their scope. The 3 most important ones you'll need are the local, instance and global variable. So what would they be looking like?
[21:55] <apachelogger> local: aPony
[21:55] <apachelogger> instance: @aPony
[21:55] <apachelogger> global: $aPony
[21:55] <apachelogger> When do I use which one?
[21:55] <apachelogger> local: always, unless you need another one
[21:55] <javi> IndigoJo: ohh that makes much more sense :D
[21:55] <apachelogger> instance: when you need to share a variable across methods in one class instance (e.g. @lineEdit in hola2.rb, which is created in the initialize method and checked in the hi method)
[21:55] <khaije|amalt> so pass by value is $aPony = @aPony (?)
[21:56] <apachelogger> global: you shouldn't ;-) it is accessibile from everywhere within the application, I only used one to showcase it really
[21:56] <khaije|amalt> is there a pass by reference analogy?
[21:56] <apachelogger> Another thing you should notice in the present code is that Ruby does not care all that much about brackets (well, most of the time anyway ;-)). This is showcased by "addWidget label" vs. "addWidget(@lineEdit)".
[21:56] <apachelogger> And the last important thing is that KDE's Ruby bindings are quite dynamic in property editing. For example you can use "text = 'something'" as well as "setText 'somethign else'".
[21:57] <apachelogger> Let's move on...
[21:57] <apachelogger> oh dear... time!!!
[21:57] <apachelogger> ....
[21:57] <YenTheFirst> oh no!
[21:57] <apachelogger> Last, but not least we will take a look at Qt's signal and slots system in Ruby. If you don't require arguments for the methods, you just create a new method using
[21:57] <shankhs_> time sux
[21:57] <shadeslayer> i think i might need to learn more basics to understand this
[21:57] <khaije|amalt> continue in OT?
[21:57] <apachelogger>   def name
[21:57] <apachelogger>     code
[21:57] <apachelogger>   end
[21:57] <YenTheFirst> but really quickly - is there a better way to do that module without global variables?
[21:57] <apachelogger> and add "slots :name" somewhere in your code, or "signals :name".
[21:58] <apachelogger> Then you just need to use connect (as shown in the code at hand) and you're done :)
[21:58] <apachelogger> #################################################################################################
[21:58] <apachelogger> talk.questions.each{|question|
[21:58] <apachelogger>   talk.answer(question) unless question.downcase.include?("python")
[21:58] <apachelogger> }
[21:58] <apachelogger> Nail me!
[21:58] <YenTheFirst> how would you rewrite Insane::Widget without $aPony ?
[21:59]  * Dhraakellian grabs a hammer
[21:59] <apachelogger> YenTheFirst: you could pass it to each method that needs it for example
[21:59] <khaije|amalt> what do the local, instance and global scopes coorespond to specifically ?
[21:59] <apachelogger> YenTheFirst: though, in most cases it is easiest to use it as a global
[21:59] <nhn> heya
[21:59] <nhn> :-D
[21:59] <micmord> i got an error with --author option
[21:59] <YenTheFirst> also, is there agood tutorial on QT programming somewhere? I know my ruby, but not my QT
[21:59] <shankhs_> apachelogger: but declaring global in OOP is dangerous
[22:00] <Riddell> I see we're very lucky in having the main man behind Ruby on KDE present here today, the amazing rdale!
[22:00] <rdale_> KDE::Application is always save in a global variable called '$kapp' if you want to use that
[22:00] <apachelogger> khaije|amalt: correspond in which context? they are both symbols to the objects but eventually just limited by their scope
[22:00] <sdein> how to asign a method/function to a variable?
[22:00] <apachelogger> micmord: we didn't define an author really :)
[22:00] <javi> YenTheFirst: qt documentation is great, it is well documented and has a lot of examples
[22:00] <markey> ahoy :)
[22:00] <markey> apachelogger++
[22:00] <markey> good idea, that
[22:01] <shankhs_> apachelogger+=2
[22:01] <micmord> apachelogger: lol... https://launchpad.net/~we-love-harald
[22:01] <shadeslayer> apachelogger+=4 (for giving us neon ;) )
[22:01] <apachelogger> sdein: I'll query you :)
[22:01] <pan_de_> ty for this intro into ruby
[22:01] <apachelogger> #################################################################################################
[22:01] <apachelogger> talk.showcases
[22:01] <apachelogger> * Project Neon (https://code.edge.launchpad.net/project-neon/trunk) simple design using loads of modules and variables :)
[22:01] <apachelogger> * KDE Extragear Release script (https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~apachelogger/+junk/release-script-refactor) simple frontend design using batch code access via gateway point using loads of requires
[22:01] <apachelogger> * Synergy Plasmoid (http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/Synergy?content=106711) Plasmoid example doing fancy stuff with classes, Qt Designer generated .ui files and applying the same base interfaces for different uses.
[22:01] <Monika|K> omg, schülervz on launchpad ;)
[22:01] <shadeslayer> yeah
[22:01] <apachelogger> * Kubuntu-Dev-Tools (https://code.edge.launchpad.net/kubuntu-dev-tools/trunk) mostly Ninja scripts for release packaging. The most useful Ruby tools ever :)
[22:01] <khaije|amalt> apachelogger: iow is local attached to the most restrictive scope or to a module, and is global available to linking code
[22:01] <javi> thank you!
[22:02] <apachelogger> #################################################################################################
[22:02] <apachelogger> talk.kill
[22:02] <apachelogger> talk.freaing_die_alredy unless talk.dead?
[22:02] <nantal> thank you
[22:02] <markey> ruby kde applications should become much more common :)
[22:02] <shankhs_> apachelogger: thanx
[22:02] <rdale_> i've got go - try #qtruby or #kde-ruby if you have questions when you've got started
[22:02] <apachelogger> Also feel free to join #kde-ruby :)
[22:02] <Monika|K> this was a really good talk, apachelogger
[22:02] <galtom> thanks apachelogger
[22:02] <Riddell> two minute breather until we start "Packaging and Merging with the Ninjas"
[22:02] <khaije|amalt> yes thank you apachelogger
[22:03] <mzaugg> Wow.  Lots to absorb, but I really appreciate it apachelogger!
[22:03] <Monika|K> I like the everything-is-an-object approach, kind of like Smalltalk but prettier
[22:03] <Dhraakellian> okay, with the ruby talk done, I can go back into only-vaguely-interested lurk mode
[22:03] <shadeslayer> Riddell: basic packaging or advanced topic?
[22:03] <khaije|amalt> def want to see more of the same in the future
[22:03] <Riddell> shadeslayer: pretty basic
[22:03] <apachelogger> mzaugg: it's massive, if you take a look at some stuff you'll understand the greater picture quite quickly though :)
[22:04] <shadeslayer> Riddell: ill stay then :P
[22:04] <khaije|amalt> apachelogger: any recommended walkthrough tutorials?
[22:04] <Monika|K> but I don't think Ruby is going to be my next favorite language
[22:04] <khaije|amalt> for beginners
[22:04] <mzaugg> I'll pound away at it the rest of the week.
[22:04] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: yeah
[22:04] <jscurtu> will splitting the packages be mentioned?
[22:04] <shadeslayer> something for beginners
[22:04] <khaije|amalt> something i can download and read
[22:05] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: Quintasan will know
[22:05] <Riddell> jscurtu: can do
[22:05] <YenTheFirst> a really really good beginner tutorial for ruby: poignantguide.net
[22:05] <apachelogger> there is a pretty nice guide around on the intartubes
[22:05] <apachelogger> what YenTheFirst said :D
[22:05] <shadeslayer> Quintasan: something for ruby beginners :)
[22:05] <jscurtu> that will be great
[22:05] <Riddell> Friends, time for  our next talk
[22:05] <YenTheFirst> chunky bacon. :D
[22:05] <Riddell> which is from.. me
[22:05] <Riddell> Packaging and Merging with the Ninjas
[22:05] <Riddell> if you want to follow along you'll need some packages installed:  apt-get install devscripts kdelibs5-dev kdebase-workspace-dev
[22:06] <Riddell> KDE releases every six months
[22:06] <Riddell> Each release includes about three beta/RC releases plus the final thing
[22:06] <Riddell> The Kubuntu ninjas are the people who package all of these releases so they're available as soon as possible at release time for the development version and latest released version of Kubuntu
[22:06] <Riddell> any ninjas here today?
[22:07] <vorian> o/
[22:07]  * DreadKnight says Kubuntu ftw!
[22:07]  * Dhraakellian is a pirate, sorry
[22:07] <wolfger> arr
[22:07] <Riddell> oh now don't be shy apachelogger, lex79, JontheEchidna, rgreening, nixternal, all the ninjas!
[22:07] <vorian> ~ninjas
[22:07] <kubotu> apachelogger, Arby, devfil, JontheEchidna, nhandler, Riddell, ScottK, stdin, nixternal, a|wen and vorian ... to the Batcave!
[22:07] <nixternal> yo yo
[22:08] <Riddell> we're just fanboying you nixternal :)
[22:08] <apachelogger> ninja!
[22:08] <Riddell> On top of KDE there's also releases of major KDE apps such as Amarok, KDevelop, KOffice and everything in extragear which we try to treat similarly
[22:08] <nixternal> oh, I am not worthy
[22:08]  * apachelogger agrees with nixternal though :P
[22:08] <Riddell> with packages available toot sweet after release and backports to the latest stable Kubuntu
[22:08] <Riddell> The ninjas work partly in secret because we get the source tars a few days early to get the packaged in time for release
[22:09] <Riddell> and to check for final problems in the code before release (which happens a lot)
[22:09] <Monika|K> so those who package Ubuntu (non-K) stuff are not ninjas?
[22:09] <vorian> pretty much
[22:09] <vorian> :P
[22:09]  * seele wonders what she is
[22:09] <Kabal458> apt ding
[22:09] <Riddell> think of them as yellow belts :)
[22:09] <Riddell> but they're not a secrative lot, infact you can join them and get your own black belt and ninja mask by showing your packaging skills and saying that you wish to help
[22:09] <javi> seele: awesome
[22:09]  * seele is unranked :P
[22:09] <shadeslayer> hehe...i had them installed 2 hours ago...
[22:09] <seele> javi: hah thanks
[22:10] <Riddell> This week we have been mostly packaging KDE 4.3 RC 1
[22:10]  * shadeslayer ooh's
[22:10] <Riddell> Let's take a look at updating one of the RC packages from the previous beta release
[22:10] <Riddell> first grab the current packaging
[22:10] <Riddell> if you're in karmic that's:  apt-get source kdetoys
[22:10] <micmord> Riddell: good i'am on KDE 4.2.90 (KDE 4.3 Beta2
[22:10] <Riddell> if you're not using karmic you can get it from launchpad
[22:10] <Riddell> go to https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/kdetoys/4:4.2.90-0ubuntu1
[22:10] <Riddell> and dget the .dsc file it points to
[22:11] <nhandler> You can also use pull-lp-source from the ubuntu-dev-tools package
[22:11] <Riddell> (dget will download the three files)
[22:11] <shadeslayer> Riddell: all 3 right?
[22:11]  * ScottK finds some wifi and finally arrives.
[22:11] <Riddell> shadeslayer: yes
[22:11] <apachelogger> nhandler: or batpull from the kubuntu-dev-tools package :P
[22:11] <Riddell> Deb source packages are not really source packages at all, they're the source tar with any changes made in a compressed .diff file, usually the changes are to add the debian/ packaging directory.  the .dsc has the checksums for the two files
[22:12] <WielkieG> dget says something about lack of gpg public key (debian guy here :P)
[22:12] <Riddell> you can use   dpkg-source -x foo.dsc  to extract the files (apt-get source will run this for you)
[22:13] <Riddell> WielkieG: that's fine to ignore for now
[22:13] <Riddell> ok, Here's the source, you all have to obay the code of the ninjas and not let it get public before KDE does their release in a couple of days
[22:13] <Riddell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~jriddell/tmp/kdetoys-4.2.95.tar.bz2
[22:13] <Riddell> remember, top secret is that!
[22:13] <Riddell> download that in a separate directory
[22:13] <vorian> :o
[22:13]  * seele . o (top secret open source code?)
[22:13] <apachelogger> Oo
[22:13] <ulysses__> o.O
[22:14]  * Quintasan noms Riddell for spreading code before release
[22:14] <Quintasan> :3
[22:14] <Riddell> it needs to be changed to the deb naming format for tars
[22:14] <Riddell> bunzip2 kdetoys-4.2.95.tar.bz2
[22:14] <Riddell> gzip -9 kdetoys-4.2.95.tar
[22:14] <Riddell> mv kdetoys-4.2.95.tar.gz kdetoys_4.2.95.orig.tar.gz
[22:14] <Riddell> to get it as gzip, and rename it to the correct naming format
[22:14] <Riddell> then extract it:
[22:14] <Riddell> tar xf kdetoys_4.2.95.orig.tar.gz
[22:14] <Riddell> cd kdetoys-4.2.95
[22:15] <Riddell> then copy over the debian/ directory from the old sources you just downloaded
[22:15] <Riddell> cp ../kdetoys-4.2.90/debian .
[22:15] <Riddell> (ajust your path to wherever you downloaded it to)
[22:15] <Riddell> everyone following?
[22:16] <Giasoneregna> not at all
[22:16] <nantal> me too, because i install packages
[22:16] <nantal> for the packaging
[22:16] <wolfger> more or less
[22:16]  * nixternal heads out for his monday night group ride - have fun tutees
[22:16] <jscurtu> yea
[22:17] <Riddell> Giasoneregna: where are you stuck?
[22:17] <msdlk45> yes
[22:18] <Giasoneregna> Riidell: i will read the entire log at the and let you continue
[22:18] <micmord> Riddell: i'am on
[22:18] <WielkieG> maybe cp -r? :P
[22:18] <Riddell> WielkieG: yes good point
[22:19] <micmord> ls
[22:19] <Riddell> if you've copied over the debian/ directory from the old version of the package the next step is to add a changelog entry
[22:19] <Riddell> dch -i   will do that and open an editor for you to add the changelog message
[22:19] <Riddell> which you can type in as "New upstream release" or something similar
[22:19] <Riddell> also set the version number to 4.2.95-0ubuntu1 in the editor at the top
[22:20] <Riddell> close the editor
[22:20] <Riddell> and that's the package all updated to the new version
[22:20] <Riddell> you need to test build it and make sure it actually works though
[22:20] <WielkieG> so this is the simpliest case ;]
[22:20] <Riddell> get it compiling with:   debuild
[22:21] <Riddell> that'll probably ask for some extra packages to be installed first
[22:21] <Riddell> install those and run debuild again and it'll compile away
[22:22] <Riddell> watch the build output though to see if it complains about any missing libraries, new versions of KDE often pick up new dependencies
[22:22] <Riddell> anyone got it compiling?
[22:22] <nantal> no
[22:22] <WielkieG> no kdebase-workspace-dev 4.3Beta2 on debian
[22:22] <nantal> i have a problem
[22:23] <Riddell> nantal: pastebin the problem then
[22:23] <jscurtu> not working here either
[22:23] <nantal> debuild: fatal error at line 630:
[22:23] <nantal> cannot find readable debian/changelog anywhere!
[22:23] <nantal> Are you in the source code tree?
[22:23] <Riddell> jscurtu: likewise, pastebin
[22:23] <Riddell> nantal: does that file exist?  did you copy over the debian directory into the kdetoys sources?
[22:23] <jscurtu> kdetoys (4:4.2.90-0ubuntu1~jaunty1~ppa1) jaunty; urgency=low
[22:24] <jscurtu> upps
[22:24] <apachelogger> nantal: what does  ....   pwd; ls debian ..... spit out?
[22:24] <jscurtu> wrong wait
[22:24] <Riddell> WielkieG: you can probably edit debian/control to remove the version number in the build-depencency
[22:25] <nantal> i haven't got debian library
[22:26] <Riddell> you need to copy the debian/ directory from the old sources into the new sources before anything will work
[22:27] <Quintasan> Riddell: don't we need to bump the build depends?
[22:27] <Riddell> Quintasan: yes should do, although you probably don't have the new versions of kde4libs and base so can't  in this case
[22:28] <WielkieG> debian sid is too much diverged from kubuntu karmic so I can't check the build now
[22:28] <WielkieG> maybe later with LiveCD
[22:28] <khaije|amalt> sry, but where is the debian/ directory supposed to be?
[22:29] <Riddell> khaije|amalt: in the old version downloaded earlier (apt-get source kdetoys)
[22:29] <Riddell> then you copy it from that into the new kdetoys sources
[22:29] <jscurtu> okay got it running......
[22:29] <Riddell> jscurtu: awooga!
[22:30] <khaije|amalt> oh i thought were were supposed to look for it in 4.2.90...
[22:30] <Riddell> khaije|amalt: yes you are
[22:30] <Riddell> and copy it into the new 4.2.95 version
[22:30] <khaije|amalt> do we get that with apt-get source or the link you posted? (i wget'd the link)
[22:31] <Riddell> either will work
[22:31] <Riddell> if you wget it you need to extract with   dpkg-source -x <file.dsc>
[22:31] <khaije|amalt> mkay
[22:32] <jscurtu> i have an error in debsign...
[22:32] <Riddell> jscurtu: excellent!
[22:32] <Riddell> that means it all compiled
[22:33] <jscurtu> juhu
[22:33]  * Riddell hands jscurtu his orange ninja belt
[22:33] <Riddell> if you have it compiled you can check for new files
[22:33] <Riddell> dh_install --sourcedir=debian/tmp --list-missing
[22:33] <Riddell> that'll show if there's any new files that need to be installed
[22:33] <Riddell> in the directory above you'll find the .deb files ready to be installed and tested
[22:34] <jscurtu> ahhhhhhhh
[22:35]  * Quintasan just notices his pdebuild alias is b0rked
[22:35] <Riddell> jscurtu: you asked about splitting the packages, you'll see in the debian/ directory a bunch of .install files, they list the files which have to go into each package
[22:36] <Riddell> I have another packaging mission if anyone is interested in patching
[22:36] <jscurtu> sure
[22:36] <dvda> yeah
[22:37] <Riddell> this bug came though the radar this morning  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/389747
[22:37]  * Quintasan is up for challenge
[22:37] <Riddell> "In default KDE panel use Show Desktop instead of Show Dashboard widget"
[22:37] <Riddell> it's a usability issue where the text used is considered confusing
[22:37] <Riddell> we need to change that text
[22:37] <Riddell> if you notice on your panel you probably have the Show Dashboard widget with that tooltip
[22:38] <Riddell> it comes from kdeplasma-addons package
[22:38] <Riddell> so that's what we need to patch
[22:38]  * shadeslayer realises packaging is not for him...
[22:38] <Riddell> apt-get source kdeplasma-addons
[22:38] <Riddell> run that to download the source ^^
[22:39] <Riddell> anyone got it downloaded?
[22:39] <jscurtu> 90%
[22:39] <jscurtu> olay
[22:39] <Riddell> it should extract itself too
[22:39] <Riddell> cd kdeplasma-addons-4.2.90
[22:39] <dvda> sorry, I need to go to sleep, any way to watch the logs tomorrow?
[22:39] <Riddell> dvda: of course
[22:40] <dvda> where>
[22:40] <ScottK> dvda: irclogs.ubuntu.com
[22:40] <Riddell> dvda: irclogs.ubuntu.com and linked from https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
[22:40] <dvda> ok, thanks a lot
[22:40] <Riddell> you can find the string in question with a grep
[22:40] <Riddell> grep "Show the Plasma Dashboard" * -r
[22:41] <Riddell> which shows us it's in applets/showdashboard/showdashboard.cpp
[22:41] <Riddell> we want to edit that file and take a diff
[22:41] <Riddell> first copy the file to make a backup of the un-edited version
[22:41] <Riddell> cp applets/showdashboard/showdashboard.cpp applets/showdashboard/showdashboard.cpp-orig
[22:41] <Riddell> and edit it in your favourite text editor
[22:41] <Riddell> emacs applets/showdashboard/showdashboard.cpp
[22:42] <Riddell> we all use emacs don't we?
[22:42] <micmord> of course
[22:42] <msdlk45> no
[22:42]  * Quintasan shakes his head
[22:42] <Riddell> change "Show the Plasma Dashboard"  to  "Show the Desktop"
[22:42] <apachelogger> vim > emacs :P
[22:42]  * apachelogger runs
[22:42] <jscurtu> no
[22:42] <Riddell> then take a diff between the new and old versions
[22:42] <Riddell> diff -u applets/showdashboard/showdashboard.cpp-orig applets/showdashboard/showdashboard.cpp
[22:43] <Riddell> will show you what's changed
[22:43] <Riddell> we want to put the diff into the packaging in the debian/patches directory
[22:43] <Monika|K> what does the -u do?
[22:43] <Riddell> if you run `ls debian/patches/`  you'll see there's already a couple in there
[22:43] <khaije|amalt> Riddell: debuild keeps saying "(expected kdetoys_4.2.90.orig.tar.gz or kdetoys_4.2.95.orig)" it's not a blocking error but is it normal?
[22:43] <Riddell> Monika|K: uses the Unified Diff format, which is much easier to read than the non -u format
[22:44] <Riddell> khaije|amalt: that means you have your tar named wrongly, it's not a big problem, you can rename it to kdetoys_4.2.90.orig.tar.gz to fix it
[22:45] <Riddell> diff -u applets/showdashboard/showdashboard.cpp-orig applets/showdashboard/showdashboard.cpp > debian/patches/kubuntu_03_desktop_string.diff
[22:45] <khaije|amalt> but it's called kdetoys_4.2.95.orig.tar in the ../.
[22:45] <Riddell> that'll put the diff where want it to be
[22:45] <Riddell> khaije|amalt: missing a .gz ?
[22:45] <khaije|amalt> k
[22:46] <Riddell> next we need to edit the diff to make it at the correct level
[22:46] <Riddell> emacs debian/patches/kubuntu_03_desktop_string.diff
[22:46] <Riddell> and change  applets/showdashboard/showdashboard.cpp  to  kdeplasma-addons/applets/showdashboard/showdashboard.cpp
[22:47] <Riddell> in the first lines
[22:47] <khaije|amalt> i have a question for later (don't want to distract too much)
[22:47] <Riddell> then add the patch to the debian/patches/series file
[22:47] <Riddell> emacs debian/patches/series
[22:47] <Riddell> and add  kubuntu_03_desktop_string.diff in there
[22:48] <Riddell> we need to revert our change now else it'll try to apply it twice
[22:48] <Riddell> mv applets/showdashboard/showdashboard.cpp-orig applets/showdashboard/showdashboard.cpp
[22:48] <Riddell> and add a changelog with   dch -i
[22:48] <Riddell> set the changelog entry to "add patch kubuntu_03_desktop_string.diff, Closes LP: #389747"  or similar
[22:49] <Riddell> and that's us done
[22:49] <Riddell> we can build the package with    debuild
[22:49] <jscurtu> cool..........
[22:49] <Riddell> and once it's build you can take the diff between the old and new versions of the package with debdiff
[22:49] <msdlk45> what about the often used quilt?
[22:49] <Riddell> debdiff <old.dsc> <new.dsc>
[22:50] <Riddell> if anyone follows that through and gets a debdiff, please attach it to that bug and we can use it
[22:50] <Riddell> msdlk45: quilt does let you do lots of clever things with patches, no time to cover them today
[22:50] <Riddell> and I mostly just do what I just showed you anyway
[22:51] <Riddell> quilt can be too clever for the simple cases I find
[22:51] <msdlk45> ok, thanks
[22:51] <Riddell> khaije|amalt: you had a question?
[22:51] <khaije|amalt> yes, could you contrast this process to someting like checkinstall?
[22:52] <Riddell> I don't think I know what checkinstall is
[22:52] <jscurtu> thanks Riddell, I learned more today....
[22:52] <jscurtu> hehehe
[22:52]  * micmord goes to sleep... thanks Riddell
[22:52] <Riddell> those are two packaging examples, updating to a new version and adding a patch
[22:52] <Riddell> there's a lot there and I suspect I lost many of you along the way
[22:52] <khaije|amalt> ya :(
[22:53] <Riddell> but don't get disheartened, that covers the majority of what the ninjas do
[22:53] <jscurtu> will there be a tut for packaging from scratch
[22:53] <Quintasan> khaije|amalt: that's the debian's way of packaging. It ensures the package build properly on all machines
[22:53] <khaije|amalt> so is the debian directory generated or is it already in the archives?
[22:53] <msdlk45> not really
[22:53] <Riddell> lots of testing involved too of course
[22:53] <WielkieG> now also some work for translation team :) (adding "Show Desktop" translation)
[22:53] <Riddell> khaije|amalt: you can get a template debian directory with  dh_make
[22:53] <Riddell> or just copy it from another package
[22:53] <Monika|K> either format looks pretty cryptic
[22:54] <khaije|amalt> and the debian/ dir is for package meta information?
[22:54] <WielkieG> debian/ dir is for everything not upstream, I think
[22:54] <Riddell> jscurtu: not today but there are frequent packaging classes with the MOTUs and we're always happy to help you get started here in #kubuntu-devel
[22:55] <Riddell> khaije|amalt: right, it has all the packaging information in it, what packages to build and how to compile and install the app
[22:55] <Riddell> debian/control  has the meta information
[22:55] <Riddell> debian/rules is a makefile to build it (which these days often just has an include for a generic makefile for all KDE apps)
[22:55] <khaije|amalt> WielkieG: ook, so it has, at a minimum the package metainfo, but potentially much more including diffs or (install/uninstall) scripts?
[22:56] <Riddell> debian/*install  splits out the files into  individual package
[22:56] <Riddell> and changes to upstream are put into  debian/patches/
[22:57] <khaije|amalt> mkay, so this method could produce potentially many packages from a single .dsc?
[22:57] <Riddell> coming up in 5 minutes.. Ken Wimer turns us all into Picasso!
[22:57]  * Quintasan claps
[22:57] <Quintasan> Riddell: thanks
[22:57] <msdlk45> how do you examine what files needs to be installed if you build your own rules file?
[22:57] <nantal> nantal claps
[22:58] <khaije|amalt> ty Riddell :)
[22:58] <jscurtu> Thanks Riddell!!
[22:58] <msdlk45> tnx @Riddell
[22:58] <khaije|amalt> i have a sense there is a _lot_ to this
[22:58] <Riddell> msdlk45: once it has compiled you can run   dh_install --sourcedir=debian/tmp --list-missing
[22:58] <Quintasan> oh kdetoys built :D
[22:58] <nantal> and thnak you Riddell
[22:58] <Riddell> msdlk45: that'll tell you all the file which aren't listed in a .install file
[22:59] <ScottK> khaije|amalt: There is a lot to it, but it comes in time.  I find there's stuff that took me an hour or two when I started two years ago that takes about a minute now.  It's hard at first, but it does come.
[22:59] <msdlk45> oh yes
[22:59] <arvid> Riddell: could you perhaps upload a copu of your logfile somewhere?
[22:59] <arvid> :copy
[22:59] <Riddell> logs will be linked from https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
[22:59] <arvid> Riddell: great - thank you very much
[23:00] <Seli> Riddell: is there any template for packaging a kde app?
[23:01] <Riddell> Seli: dh_make will create the template
[23:01] <Riddell> you can also just copy it over from an existing package
[23:01] <Riddell> I suspect dh_make isn't available on suse
[23:02] <Seli> Riddell: so there is no specific kde package setup?
[23:03] <Quintasan> I think we use *.mk files from pkg-kde-tools and cdbs
[23:04] <Riddell> Seli: I can get you an example in a sec
[23:05] <Riddell> next up is kwwii talking about Artwork
[23:05] <Riddell> kwwii is the founder of KDE's Oxygen artwork project
[23:05] <Riddell> and does much of the Ubuntu Artwork
[23:05]  * Quintasan claps
[23:05] <Riddell> go kwwii!
[23:05] <kwwii> woot!!! ARTWORK!
[23:05]  * khaije|amalt cheers kwwii
[23:05] <nantal> cheers!
[23:06] <shadeslayer> yip yip
[23:06] <nantal> i drank a can of coke
[23:06] <kwwii> I'd liek to come over as a big muscular guy screaming about artwork and how simple it is to design something but naturally that is simply not the case :p
[23:06] <kwwii> I would also like to learn how to spell correctly when typing fast :p
[23:06] <kwwii> but anyway
[23:06] <kwwii> I have no idea who is here or what they know and/or are interested in...
[23:07] <kwwii> first I will go through some of the basics which amazingly few people know
[23:07] <kwwii> 1) we use svg
[23:07] <khaije|amalt> woohoo!!
[23:07] <kwwii> svg means scalable vector graphic but it is really not that scalable in the usage for icons
[23:07] <kwwii> so we create lots of svgs :)
[23:08] <kwwii> depending on the icon, there are svg's for lots of different sizes
[23:08] <khaije|amalt> i'd wondered about that actually, lol
[23:08] <kwwii> you don't see it in the end theme because they are rendered to the right size and installed as png files
[23:08] <kwwii> but if you download the svn sources you will get a feeling for what is going on
[23:09] <kwwii> funny enough when I tried to find info for the anon svn links I found there is an extra sentence just for oxygen :p
[23:09] <kwwii> http://techbase.kde.org/Getting_Started/Sources/Anonymous_SVN#Checkout_KDE
[23:09] <kwwii> so if you have the time/bandwidth get the icons and in a bit we can go through one
[23:10] <kwwii> naturally you will need svn on your system :)
[23:11] <kwwii> so going on, although svg is scalable it is only scalable to a point
[23:11] <kwwii> the human eye is kinda funky and doesn't just interpret info as such but forms opinions about how things look and tries to put things into their respective box, so to speak
[23:12] <kwwii> and anti-aliasing is funky and doesn't always allow you to do what you think you should be able to do
[23:12] <kwwii> in the end, it comes down to things being, at least to some extent, on a pixel raster
[23:13] <kwwii> so if you draw an icon at say 48x48 pixels, it does not scale well to 16 or 12
[23:13] <kwwii> most of the original svg icons were 128x128
[23:13] <kwwii> which, needless to say is useless for any smaller size rendering
[23:14] <kwwii> oxygen has a directory with the scalable icons and inside of it is a dir named small
[23:15] <kwwii> inside of it are different sizes, if an icon exists in a directory at a given size it will be used to render that size of png instead of the larger version
[23:16] <kwwii> in the meantime, jimmac (Jakub Steiner, the tango icon maintainer) created a one canvas workflow which allows an artist to include the different sized svg's in one svg document
[23:16] <kwwii> which is, in some ways, really interesting when creating an icon
[23:17] <kwwii> people think creating an icon means making one picture
[23:18] <kwwii> but it is really creating, in many cases 4 or more images (16x16, 22x22/24x24, 32x32, 48x48,+)
[23:18] <kwwii> so anyway, if you want to do an oxygen icon the first thing you need is the palette
[23:19] <kwwii> oh, http://jimmac.musichall.cz/log/?p=436 is a link to the one canvas video from jimmacs blog
[23:20] <kwwii> http://websvn.kde.org/*checkout*/trunk/playground/artwork/Oxygen/utils/oxygen.gpl is the oxygen palette for gimp or inkscape
[23:20] <kwwii> it has a lot of colors, both vibrant and normal
[23:20] <kwwii> try to use the normal as much as possible
[23:21] <kwwii> :)
[23:21]  * Quintasan likes the k3b icon
[23:21] <Quintasan> :3
[23:21] <kwwii> in the end, if you really want to make an icon in a given style the best way to learn how to do it is to look at the icons very closely
[23:22] <kwwii> for this chat, I chose the document-save icon (a floppy disk, which could in itself be discussed to no end)
[23:22] <kwwii> so if anyone/everyone has the svn icons (ie the scalable smaller sizes) I can go through the basics
[23:22] <kwwii> anyone interested?
[23:23] <nantal> yes, i am
[23:23] <YenTheFirst> me too
[23:23] <WielkieG> i've just co it
[23:23] <Quintasan> my artistic skill is near zero but why not
[23:23] <YenTheFirst> although I don't have the icons, I'll follow your talk
[23:24] <kwwii> cool...so open no worries, this will give you a feeling for how it works and, perhaps, show you how you could help
[23:24] <nantal> me too with quintasan
[23:24] <kwwii> honsestly, picking this icon was luck..give me a chance
[23:25] <kwwii> open scalable/actions/small/*/document-save.svgz
[23:25] <kwwii> ie all the sizes in the small directory
[23:25] <kwwii> a 1x1 preview will suffice
[23:26] <kwwii> the point is to see how the shapes are simpler as the image get smaller
[23:26] <Riddell> svn co svn://anonsvn.kde.org/home/kde/trunk/kdesupport/oxygen-icons/scalable/actions/small   will download just the  small icons (22MB)
[23:26] <kwwii> if you look closely, you will, unfortunately see that the strokes of some objects at certain sizes don't line up to the object underneath them, which is an error caused by simply scaling the larger sizes down
[23:27] <kwwii> thanks Riddell
[23:27] <kwwii> so on the small sizes the image is made of large, simple shapes and gradients
[23:28] <kwwii> whereas the larger sizes use a texture on the metal part of the floppy
[23:29] <kwwii> does anyone see the problem with the texture in the larger sizes?
[23:29] <Riddell> here is just that icon http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/icon.tar.gz
[23:30] <kwwii> for whatever reason it is off by 4 pixels in both the x and y coordinates
[23:31] <kwwii> so over-all my point is that drawing pictograms is not drawing pictures...only the very large sizes come close to illustration and illustration is in any case differetn than real artwork
[23:31] <kwwii> it is about artistic design
[23:31] <kwwii> and if you really want to learn how to do it, look at the stuff that is already out there very closely
[23:32] <kwwii> oxygen is about very subtle, realistic surfaces and materials
[23:32] <kwwii> simple gradients everywhere
[23:32] <kwwii> although the outer edges of things tend to be a bit darker
[23:33] <kwwii> which precludes the need to use a line around the icon the define it against the background
[23:33] <kwwii> which increases the realism
[23:33] <kwwii> but really, the small oxygen icons are just as simple as any other theme
[23:33] <kwwii> there is no way around that
[23:33] <kwwii> it is not a matter of design but a matter of physics
[23:34] <kwwii> interestingly enough, with the advance of computer displays the tiny little things they are selling today have really high resolutions so larger icons are needed more than ever
[23:35] <kwwii> funny that...it took a tiny display with high resolution to increase the need to larger sizes icons
[23:35] <kwwii> people always say that I talk to fast when giving a presentation...I get the feeling that I am typing to fast as well
[23:36] <kwwii> any questions?
[23:36] <Riddell> the wrong texture is on the metal slider at the bottom of the floppy disk?
[23:36] <Quintasan> none so far, I'm amazed by the amount of work you have
[23:37] <kwwii> Riddell: yes, let me make a screenshot
[23:37] <Riddell> I see it
[23:37] <Riddell> how long  does it take to make an icon like that?
[23:38] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/Screenshot.png shows the problem clearly, I think
[23:38] <kwwii> in the old days I would have said that a typical icon takes a day to make
[23:39] <kwwii> some, like arrows and such are so closely related that it takes a few days to hammer out the concept but then you have a lot of icons done quickly
[23:40] <kwwii> whereas some things take time just to create an idea of the metaphor you want to express
[23:40] <kwwii> really, it is about creating visual metaphors which people translate into concrete ideas or actions
[23:40] <kwwii> so they are very important and very hard to do "right"
[23:41] <YenTheFirst> That was going to be my question (and what I originally thought this talk would be about): How do you go about creating a good visual metaphore?
[23:41] <YenTheFirst> *metaphor
[23:41] <kwwii> you can make the most amazing pineapple icon at 16x16 and say it means miscellaneous but people will call you on it for years
[23:42] <Daskreech> Gotta go!
[23:42] <kwwii> YenTheFirst: well, the way we have done it is 1) asked ourselves what kind of styling would be appropriate for this metaphor
[23:42] <Riddell> speaking from experience on the pineapple are we? :)
[23:42] <kwwii> ie is it something slick and sexy or is it something simple and plain
[23:43] <kwwii> then, we created a kind of definition for the different icon types
[23:43] <kwwii> http://www.oxygen-icons.org/?page_id=2 explains the idea
[23:43] <kwwii> although we probably didn't reach all of those goals, we still try to live by the ideas behind them
[23:44] <kwwii> so we look at the material type and how it reacts to light
[23:44] <kwwii> that is very important as the things we make are hyper-realistic at the larger sizes
[23:44] <kwwii> another thing to take into account is the smaller sizes
[23:44] <kwwii> how does it work, scale it down, make a simpler version
[23:45] <kwwii> then go back and change the big version, etc
[23:45] <kwwii> back and forth to some degree
[23:45] <kwwii> so depending on the size, the icon gets more complicated
[23:46] <kwwii> the smaller sizes, although they may seem more challenging or really the things that the new artist could look into first
[23:46] <kwwii> although, if they are really good at illustration then I would suggest simply talking to me directly
[23:46] <kwwii> :)
[23:48] <apachelogger> so
[23:48] <kwwii> so, as the last part of this, I thought that if enough people are intersted in actually discussing something and working out an idea for an icon we could make one
[23:48] <kwwii> I was told that there is a need for an icon for the usb image creator (or such)
[23:49] <Riddell> an icon in ten minutes!
[23:49] <kwwii> exactly, well, at least the basics
[23:49] <kwwii> so it occured to me that people only install an image on a usb key and not disk
[23:50] <kwwii> and as I made the current oxygen usb key icon I figured we could go from there
[23:50] <apachelogger> *nod*
[23:51] <kwwii> so open drive-removable-media-usb-pendrive.svg from scalable/devices
[23:52] <kwwii> ideally we want to say that we are putting kubuntu onto a stick, right?
[23:52] <kwwii> ie. if I am wrong or you have blood pumping through your brains say something :p
[23:52] <Riddell> http://websvn.kde.org/*checkout*/trunk/kdesupport/oxygen-icons/scalable/devices/drive-removable-media-usb-pendrive.svgz
[23:53] <YenTheFirst> my brains are empty and bloodless. :P
[23:53] <Quintasan> kwwii: Kubuntu logo and an arrow comes to my mind
[23:53] <kwwii> so we could remove the oxygen branding - trust me, I know them :p I am sure they will be ok with it - and add a kubuntu logo
[23:54] <kwwii> Quintasan: yes, the logo is good
[23:54] <kwwii> another thing to look at it how the oxygen icons show adding something new
[23:55] <kwwii> if you look around (trust me, I have) it uses a white plus symbol on a green 3d globe thingy
[23:55] <kwwii> not sure if that is what we want for this though
[23:55] <Riddell> http://kubuntu.org/art/kubuntu-feisty-plain.svg  logo
[23:56] <apachelogger> kwwii: could become a bit crowded, right?
[23:56] <kwwii> I think making the purple in the usb stick blue and adding a nice kubuntu logo would be enough...maybe a star or something like that to show the act of creation
[23:56] <kwwii> apachelogger: exactly
[23:56] <kwwii> this icon will mainly be shown at 48x48 I guess
[23:56] <kwwii> Riddell: do you know the details of the icon size?
[23:57] <kwwii> one interesting thing about this icon is that at the time I made it we could not rely on guassian blur support from inkscape so we had to draw the shadow by hand
[23:57] <apachelogger> it's only shown in the kickoff menu and window decoration I suppose
[23:58] <kwwii> apachelogger: hehe, so a large version and a *really* small version
[23:58] <apachelogger> righto
[23:58] <Riddell> kwwii: I don't I'm afraid
[23:58] <kwwii> which is a worst case scenario, really
[23:58] <kwwii> no worries
[23:58] <kwwii> I'll make this icon blue and add a logo to it
[23:59] <Riddell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~jriddell/tmp/kubuntu-usb-creator.png  I am an artist!