| roberto_ | I am having problems with the gcompris app, is this the rigth channel? | 01:01 |
|---|---|---|
| dgroos | Good Evening All, | 03:21 |
| dgroos | I'm trying to re-do the localapps on Jaunty as per these instructions: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPLocalAppsJaunty#preview | 03:22 |
| dgroos | I'm making a new chroot at the first stage of the instructions and getting this warning: | 03:23 |
| dgroos | WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated! | 03:24 |
| dgroos | libxcb1 ltsp-client-core libxcb-render0 ldm ltspfsd rdesktop ltsp-client | 03:24 |
| dgroos | E: There are problems and -y was used without --force-yes | 03:24 |
| dgroos | error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally | 03:24 |
| dgroos | I've got authentication keys for all my sources so not sure why it says that. | 03:24 |
| dgroos | Anyone know what command I could use instead of or in addition to this to force the yes? sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps --copy-sourceslist | 03:26 |
| debianero | hello | 09:29 |
| Svenstaro | We need a separate Edubuntu forum. | 14:03 |
| Svenstaro | People looking into the official Ubuntu forums are desktop users. | 14:03 |
| Svenstaro | We want to address educators, that's a totally different group. | 14:03 |
| === alkisg1 is now known as alkisg | ||
| dgroos | Hi Svenstaro, what would this forum look like? | 14:37 |
| Svenstaro | Ubuntu forums basically but a completely separate Edubuntu category. | 14:38 |
| Svenstaro | Edubuntu has a *completely* other target group than say Ubuntu. | 14:38 |
| Svenstaro | Different problems, different users, different uses. | 14:38 |
| dgroos | Indeed. Like the huge mass underwater of the ice berg, the pedagogical realities of a teacher's job remains hidden. | 14:40 |
| dgroos | While we are concerned with the technology, the crucial point is how to use this technology to engage students, day after day, in a variety of activities, so as students learn a wide variety of material. | 14:41 |
| dgroos | Ironically, the technology is not only a powerful tool. | 14:42 |
| dgroos | It can also be a curse :-) | 14:43 |
| dgroos | And thinking back to that quote Einstein was said to have made, 'If you think your troubles in math are bad, mine are much worse." | 14:44 |
| dgroos | I'm sure that the people on this list who are technological wizards are coping, routinely, with technology headaches :) | 14:45 |
| Svenstaro | So who is responsible for this? | 14:45 |
| dgroos | For which? | 14:45 |
| Svenstaro | Ubuntu forums? | 14:45 |
| dgroos | ?What do you mean? | 14:45 |
| Svenstaro | I want separate forums :D | 14:46 |
| Svenstaro | I hate how activity around Edubuntu froze again | 14:46 |
| dgroos | Are you saying that the problem with the edubuntu forums are that they are too techno? Not newbie enough? | 14:47 |
| Svenstaro | There are effectively no Edubuntu forums | 14:48 |
| dgroos | Are you saying that the tech folk and the teach folk speak past one another? | 14:48 |
| Svenstaro | But yes, at least where I live, the schools act *totally* differently compared to Edubuntu's approach. | 14:48 |
| Svenstaro | I'll probably get a job to deploy Linux at my school but Edubuntu isn't making it easy. | 14:48 |
| Svenstaro | Neither is Skolelinux. | 14:48 |
| dgroos | Where do you live? | 14:49 |
| Svenstaro | I have to say that, without personal offense, all educational Linux distros so far suck when it comes to user friendlyness and documentation. | 14:49 |
| Svenstaro | Northern Germany | 14:49 |
| Svenstaro | I think I can say I'm a Linux expert, so I should have no trouble reading docs meant for teachers. Turns out, I do! | 14:50 |
| Svenstaro | Even Skolelinux, which thinks it's the greatest, sucks when it comes to documentation. | 14:50 |
| Svenstaro | It can't be so hard to make a top-down approach :/ | 14:51 |
| dgroos | What do you mean by a top-down approach? | 14:51 |
| Svenstaro | Define abstract stuff first, THEN do technical work. | 14:51 |
| Svenstaro | You know, I'm usually now a fan of that but it's the only way this will ever work out. | 14:52 |
| Svenstaro | A huge thing like a education distro needs to be designed before it is made. | 14:52 |
| dgroos | vision-goals-objectives-tasks-assessment thing? | 14:52 |
| Svenstaro | Define clear goals, define your target group, work out how, logically speaking, you will address user-friendlyness, how documentation is going to be synced with technical completion. | 14:53 |
| ogra | Svenstaro, we have collections of abstract stuff from four years ... but nobody to implement anything of it | 14:53 |
| Svenstaro | Pretty much, yes. | 14:53 |
| dgroos | So the issue isn't the goals/objective thing, but the time/focus issue? | 14:54 |
| ogra | no, the actual developers edubuntu doesnt have | 14:55 |
| ogra | there is tons and tons of written stuff and ideas around edubuntu | 14:55 |
| ogra | the "have an edubuntu only forum" idea is at least 4 years old | 14:55 |
| ogra | you need people doing the work ... there are none | 14:55 |
| dgroos | Why do you think edubuntu doesn't have developers but, as you are saying I think, other parts or the linux world do have developers? | 14:57 |
| ogra | because i'm the guy who built edubuntu until i moved to other duties in ubuntu land two years ago | 14:58 |
| dgroos | :) I do see your name written all over the place :) | 14:58 |
| ogra | when i moved on, nobody maintained anything at all ... LaserJock roughly kept the packages in shape | 14:59 |
| ogra | since several months there is some initiative again | 14:59 |
| ogra | the point is that everyone relied on me doing the job fulltime ... so nobody stepped up | 14:59 |
| ogra | ... when i left | 14:59 |
| dgroos | As I understand, it's all volunteer work, right? | 15:00 |
| ogra | the first thing (what highvoltage, stgraber and LaserJock actually try to achieve) is to find a developer community now, willing to invest time and work | 15:01 |
| ogra | else edubuntu wont come to life again | 15:01 |
| ogra | they do a great job in that, but its still in its early stages | 15:01 |
| ogra | dgroos, i'm a paid canonical dev ... until i left it was mostly non volunteer work with very few volunteers helping ... mainly the three persons above | 15:02 |
| ogra | what i wanted to point out though regarding Svenstaro's comment is that you need people that actually do work, else every abstract idea is a dead idea | 15:03 |
| Svenstaro | I'm willing, but nobody gives me priviliges. I'm again short of starting my own distro and forking what I can use from Edubuntu and debianedu. | 15:04 |
| ogra | just come to the edubuntu meetings, i'm sure one of the three current drivers will give you some privileges :) | 15:05 |
| ogra | engage and you will recieve ;) | 15:05 |
| Svenstaro | I also think the whole ISO building process is rather complicated. I can't just start, I need to rely on various people doing various things for me and getting into agreement. It is not very encouraging for volunteers to be this complicated to maintain. | 15:05 |
| ogra | you dont have to care about iso building | 15:05 |
| ogra | the ubuntu build system will do everything | 15:06 |
| Svenstaro | Take for example Arch Linux as a counter example, I can just go there and do my thing and it will be acknowledged. But it is all so horribly complicated in *buntu. | 15:06 |
| Svenstaro | Yeah, but I can't rebuild on my own to see if some hooks worked, for example. | 15:06 |
| Svenstaro | I need to wait a full day for the rebuild to happen. | 15:06 |
| ogra | no | 15:07 |
| ogra | you just ask the right person do do a rebuild | 15:07 |
| Svenstaro | And then there are issues because the new release might be bigger than 700MB, oh no! | 15:07 |
| ogra | then you make a change and ask the person again | 15:07 |
| ogra | and soon its less than 700M :) | 15:07 |
| ogra | just get involved | 15:08 |
| Svenstaro | Huh? | 15:08 |
| Svenstaro | There's going to be a full live LTSP on there, how is it going to be less? | 15:08 |
| ogra | the rest will solve itself ... what edubuntu needs is active people wanting to help and actually investing time | 15:08 |
| Svenstaro | On a DVD release, we might be able to push 2GB easily with some introductional videos. | 15:08 |
| Svenstaro | What Edubuntu needs is a less complicated process for contributors. | 15:08 |
| ogra | with a DVD you will exclude the majority of existing edubuntu users though | 15:09 |
| Svenstaro | And there we go again :/ | 15:09 |
| ogra | the edubuntu contribution process is identical to the ubuntu one | 15:09 |
| Svenstaro | If we can't even settle on just doing a DVD, how are we ever going to move forward? | 15:09 |
| ogra | if you want a live LTSP on the CD, free up 200M | 15:09 |
| Svenstaro | Yes, that's actually part of the reason why I'm not a Ubuntu contributor :/ | 15:09 |
| Svenstaro | I don't want a live LTSP on the CD, that's impossible. | 15:10 |
| Svenstaro | If you want to include a decent user experience that is. | 15:10 |
| ogra | how do you expect the process to change if you dont help changing it then ? | 15:10 |
| ogra | its not impossible | 15:10 |
| ogra | fedora and suse do it | 15:10 |
| ogra | anyway ... | 15:11 |
| * ogra has to go back to his actual work | 15:11 | |
| Svenstaro | Okay, first change I'd make if people let me is set up a properly organized MEDIA WIKI and put the old docs in there, discarding what is now irrelevant. | 15:12 |
| Svenstaro | Second change is combining the Edubuntu seeds and making it into a combined Live DVD with LTSP and itroductional videos. | 15:12 |
| Svenstaro | Third is making the user applications workable and integrate them properly. | 15:12 |
| ogra | put all that on the agenda for next edubuntu meeting, talk to stgraber, highvoltage and LaserJock :) | 15:13 |
| Svenstaro | I know how to assemble a Linux distro from scatch, write user applications, script, set up web applications and security measures. | 15:13 |
| Svenstaro | And I want write access to the Edubuntu site, it needs a major revamp. | 15:13 |
| dgroos | When is the next Edubuntu meeting? Where do I find the dates? | 15:13 |
| ogra | they are usually announced early on the edubuntu-users ML | 15:14 |
| Svenstaro | Can I announce one? | 15:14 |
| ogra | Svenstaro, i'm sure the last can be achieved within minutes | 15:14 |
| ogra | if you catch one of the three | 15:14 |
| ogra | well, you shouldnt announce one without having talked to one of the current edubuntu people :) | 15:15 |
| Svenstaro | Yes, and then there's the thing of trust that I might be screwing carelessly with an official Canonical site. | 15:15 |
| Svenstaro | I don't think I'd get access that easily. | 15:15 |
| ogra | you do | 15:15 |
| ogra | edubuntu.org is kept on a separate server deliberately | 15:15 |
| Svenstaro | You are an Edubuntu guy, how about on 08.07.09, 20:00 CEST? | 15:16 |
| ogra | i think highvoltage can give you access to it | 15:16 |
| ogra | Svenstaro, i'm not :) i just hang around here | 15:16 |
| ogra | my work duties dont leave me any time for edubuntu | 15:16 |
| dgroos | Alright Svenstaro--get your access, set up the meeting, then help me solve some of my tech issues, alright?! :-) | 15:16 |
| Svenstaro | Aw come on, you don't feel responsible for Edubuntu anymore? ;) | 15:16 |
| Svenstaro | dgroos, what kind of tech issues? | 15:17 |
| ogra | i do, thats why i'm talking to you ... but thats about it ... | 15:17 |
| ogra | the last 20min of chatting i did here will make my workday 20min longer | 15:17 |
| Svenstaro | also, I need to correct you I guess, the announce list is edubuntu-devel of course | 15:17 |
| ogra | it should be announced on both | 15:18 |
| Svenstaro | It might make the work day of IT teachers 2 hours shorter, though. | 15:18 |
| Svenstaro | Doesn't seem to be the case if you look at the archives. | 15:18 |
| ogra | might be, but ubuntu wont have an ARM port next release if i dont go back to work now :) | 15:18 |
| dgroos | I keep thinking about these people who develop open source software, how cool that is. And then I think about what I'm doing with my project--working to integrate computers running open source, and that is cool, too. It is 'work beyond the workday' even though often during the work day. | 15:18 |
| dgroos | Somehow, I think youse are suggesting, we need to keep talking so maybe come more together... | 15:19 |
| Svenstaro | ogra, right, enjoy yourself then. I'll try and actually do what you suggested. | 15:19 |
| ogra | well, there are only 24 in a day ... my workday means usually 16h of these on 6-7 days a week being occupied | 15:19 |
| dgroos | ogra: I know what you mean :-) This is my 'summer off' and all I can think about is this server and thin clients I've got set up in my basement... | 15:20 |
| highvoltage | Svenstaro: access to the edubuntu site won't be that dicfficult, we would just like to get to know you a little better | 15:21 |
| Svenstaro | Well I've been ranting on and off around in this channel for a couple of weeks now :P | 15:21 |
| dgroos | Anyway, thanks ogra for your 'above and beyond'. | 15:21 |
| ogra | welcome ... and hi highvoltage :) | 15:22 |
| dgroos | hi highvoltage--that sounds really dangerous ;) | 15:22 |
| highvoltage | Svenstaro: well, watch the edubuntu-devel list for when the next meeting is scheduled, we'll have one again soon, then you can add those items to the agenda | 15:22 |
| highvoltage | hi ogra and dgroos | 15:22 |
| highvoltage | dgroos: heh. | 15:23 |
| Svenstaro | Oh, the waiting again. This is little motivating again. | 15:23 |
| highvoltage | Svenstaro: have you signed the ubuntu code of conduct? | 15:23 |
| Svenstaro | I believe not | 15:23 |
| Svenstaro | This thing: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct ? | 15:23 |
| highvoltage | Svenstaro: yes, you can do it through launchpad. | 15:24 |
| dgroos | go for it Svenstaro! | 15:24 |
| highvoltage | Svenstaro: and do you have a wiki page introducing yourself on the ubuntu wiki? | 15:24 |
| Svenstaro | No, I'm honestly not a big Ubuntu fan because I'm mainly a developer but Edubuntu seems to have the best for an educational distro so I'm sticking around here. | 15:25 |
| highvoltage | Svenstaro: ok. fwiw wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.ubuntu.com is the same wiki, so if it makes you feel better you can add your page to the ubuntu wiki :) | 15:26 |
| highvoltage | Svenstaro: but you'll have to sign the Ubuntu CoC if you want write access on the wiki, at the very minimum | 15:26 |
| Svenstaro | Is there any possibility at all we can ever settle the DVD vs CD debate? | 15:27 |
| dgroos | or instead a flashdrive? | 15:28 |
| Svenstaro | That one as well | 15:28 |
| Svenstaro | Not instead, but rather additionally. | 15:28 |
| dgroos | So, Svenstaro, hope you decide to jump aboard. I do have some tech questions if you don't mind...? | 15:31 |
| dgroos | I'm trying to re-install localapps but I get an error at the first stage--creating the chroot. | 15:34 |
| Svenstar0 | Oh dear, I just d/c'd. | 15:34 |
| Svenstar0 | Did you say anything I didn't get? | 15:34 |
| dgroos | :) | 15:35 |
| dgroos | I'll copy and paste... (or is there a better way on the IRC?) | 15:35 |
| dgroos | [09:31am] dgroos: So, Svenstaro, hope you decide to jump aboard. I do have some tech questions if you don't mind...? | 15:35 |
| dgroos | [09:34am] dgroos: I'm trying to re-install localapps but I get an error at the first stage--creating the chroot. | 15:35 |
| Svenstar0 | I'm not a terminal server expert and documentation about that one is rare as well. | 15:37 |
| dgroos | I'll throw it out there and if you can point me somewhere that would be great, otherwise, I've got more questions :) | 15:38 |
| dgroos | here's the output: WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated! libxcb1 ltsp-client-core libxcb-render0 ldm ltspfsd rdesktop ltsp-client E: There are problems and -y was used without --force-yes. | 15:38 |
| Svenstar0 | That one's obvious, isn't it`? | 15:40 |
| Svenstar0 | Nothing to do with localapps. | 15:40 |
| dgroos | obvious to 'one who knows' :-) | 15:40 |
| Svenstar0 | The sign key doesn't validate, likely because it is missing. | 15:40 |
| dgroos | I've got all my sources validated | 15:40 |
| Svenstar0 | If you had just googled it you would have gotten answer :/ | 15:40 |
| Svenstar0 | in the chroot even? | 15:41 |
| dgroos | careful! I googled for a couple of hours :-) | 15:41 |
| Svenstar0 | Just override the verification mechanism and you should be fine. | 15:42 |
| Svenstar0 | Which script are you calling? | 15:42 |
| alkisg | dgroos: have you put stgraber's ppa to your chroot sources? | 15:43 |
| dgroos | Yes, and authenticated... | 15:43 |
| alkisg | in the chroot, do: apt-key list | 15:43 |
| alkisg | Do you have a key that says: Launchpad PPA for Stéphane Graber ? | 15:44 |
| dgroos | alkisg: how do i do that 'in the chroot?' | 15:44 |
| alkisg | sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-key list | 15:44 |
| dgroos | Svenstar0: I found it at last--the command I used was: sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps --copy-sourceslist. | 15:46 |
| dgroos | alkisg: I'll do it... | 15:46 |
| dgroos | alkisg: It only mentions the: Ubuntu Archive Automatic Signing Key and Ubuntu CD Image Automatic Signing Key. | 15:48 |
| alkisg | OK, you don't have the key, that's the problem. Run this: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-key adv --recv-keys --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com E7716B13 | 15:48 |
| dgroos | Cool... it worked! And I'll do it with the iTALC and sbalneav ones too, ay? | 15:49 |
| alkisg | dgroos: yes, but you'll need different key numbers for them. | 15:50 |
| dgroos | right, I can find them. Also, I tried to sudo rm -r the chroots I created that are ill formed but it said I couldn't because something about can't delete something in mount... | 15:51 |
| alkisg | Maybe you have the /proc still mounted? Do a reboot to get rid of every problem :) | 15:52 |
| dgroos | alkisg: will do :) | 15:53 |
| dgroos | OK... added keys, rebooted, rm ill-formed chroots, creating new chroot... | 16:20 |
| dgroos | this takes awhile, in the meantime, Svenstar0... can you help me think about java on ubuntu? | 16:21 |
| dgroos | I've got sun-java6 running on my server (2 processor, dual core xeon processors at 2.8 GB w/ 3 gigs of ram) | 16:23 |
| dgroos | None the less, when I do a simulation like this: http://phet.colorado.edu/simulations/sims.php?sim=Salts_and_Solubility it doesn't run nearly so smoothly as on my mac even on much less powerful hardware | 16:24 |
| dgroos | These simulations are very powerful in science education--they allow students to interract with a model, helping them visualize and understand the relationships between the parts. | 16:26 |
| dgroos | alkisg: Hmmm... I gave this command: sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps2 --copy-sourceslist, and 10 minutes later it gave the same WARNING about 'cannot be authenticated', noting the same packages: libxcb1 ltsp-client-core libxcb-render0 ldm ltspfsd rdesktop ltsp-client. Any idea? | 16:32 |
| alkisg | dgroos: you have stgraber ppa in your /etc/apt/sources.list, so by copying the sources you copy that to the chroot. | 16:34 |
| alkisg | If it's a warning, ignore it; if it's an error, temporarilily remove stgrabers' ppa | 16:34 |
| dgroos | alkisg: it said: "error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally" So I'll do as you say, I'll uncheck stgraber from the source list and try again. Thanks for your help, again. | 16:36 |
| sowmithry | hi | 16:46 |
| dgroos | alkisg: Welcome back :) | 20:59 |
| alkisg | hey dgroos, hi all | 21:00 |
| alkisg | On Karmic now, migrating my accounts etc... :) | 21:01 |
| dgroos | I reran the ltsp-build-client and while there was an error (usplash-theme-ubuntu is already the newest version. usplash-theme-ubuntu set to manually installed. E: Couldn't find package ldm-ubuntu-theme error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally) it doesn't looks so bad... | 21:01 |
| dgroos | alkisg: right? | 21:02 |
| alkisg | So was the chroot and the image generated? | 21:02 |
| dgroos | well, the ltsp/i386_w_localapps4 directory was created and looks populated inside, there was no new image in ltsp/images. | 21:05 |
| alkisg | dgroos, well, I don't know, if it says "ended abnormally" then it doesn't look too good to me. | 21:06 |
| dgroos | :( I had hoped that maybe the image was created at a further step? Is the command I mentioned: sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps --copy-sourceslist, supposed to create the image, also? | 21:11 |
| alkisg | Um, I don't remember because I usually use the alternate cd which does all this automatically. Well, you could try `sudo ltsp-update-image` if you want... | 21:19 |
| dgroos | I too used the alternate CD--what do you mean, does this all for you?? | 21:19 |
| alkisg | I builds the chroot and generates the image. But well it seems that you want a second chroot, so... :) | 21:23 |
| alkisg | *it | 21:25 |
| dgroos | Right I see, I'm 'just following the directions' :) on the page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPLocalAppsJaunty but I've been thinking, maybe I'm being too cautious... and ought to operate on the chroot installed during initial process. | 21:26 |
| alkisg | Yeah, I'd just make a backup of this chroot and operate on that. | 21:27 |
| dgroos | I'll backup the chroot, then operate on the original... (took the words right out of my fingers :) | 21:27 |
| dgroos | A good command for that would be... ? Anything special I need to do to make the backup? Thanks. | 21:28 |
| alkisg | I guess... (1) rm -rf /opt/ltsp/i386_w_localapps (2) sudo cp -a /opt/ltsp /opt/ltsp-backup | 21:29 |
| dgroos | alkisg: got it, thanks, I'll now operate on the original. | 21:32 |
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