/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/07/01/#edubuntu.txt

roberto_I am having problems with the gcompris app, is this the rigth channel?01:01
dgroosGood Evening All,03:21
dgroosI'm trying to re-do the localapps on Jaunty as per these instructions: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPLocalAppsJaunty#preview03:22
dgroosI'm making a new chroot at the first stage of the instructions and getting this warning:03:23
dgroosWARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!03:24
dgroos  libxcb1 ltsp-client-core libxcb-render0 ldm ltspfsd rdesktop ltsp-client03:24
dgroosE: There are problems and -y was used without --force-yes03:24
dgrooserror: LTSP client installation ended abnormally03:24
dgroosI've got authentication keys for all my sources so not sure why it says that.03:24
dgroosAnyone know what command I could use instead of or in addition to this to force the yes? sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps --copy-sourceslist03:26
debianerohello09:29
SvenstaroWe need a separate Edubuntu forum.14:03
SvenstaroPeople looking into the official Ubuntu forums are desktop users.14:03
SvenstaroWe want to address educators, that's a totally different group.14:03
=== alkisg1 is now known as alkisg
dgroosHi Svenstaro, what would this forum look like?14:37
SvenstaroUbuntu forums basically but a completely separate Edubuntu category.14:38
SvenstaroEdubuntu has a *completely* other target group than say Ubuntu.14:38
SvenstaroDifferent problems, different users, different uses.14:38
dgroosIndeed. Like the huge mass underwater of the ice berg, the pedagogical realities of a teacher's job remains hidden.14:40
dgroosWhile we are concerned with the technology, the crucial point is how to use this technology to engage students, day after day, in a variety of activities, so as students learn a wide variety of material.14:41
dgroosIronically, the technology is not only a powerful tool.14:42
dgroosIt can also be a curse :-)14:43
dgroosAnd thinking back to that quote Einstein was said to have made, 'If you think your troubles in math are bad, mine are much worse."14:44
dgroosI'm sure that the people on this list who are technological wizards are coping, routinely, with technology headaches :)14:45
SvenstaroSo who is responsible for this?14:45
dgroosFor which?14:45
SvenstaroUbuntu forums?14:45
dgroos?What do you mean?14:45
SvenstaroI want separate forums :D14:46
SvenstaroI hate how activity around Edubuntu froze again14:46
dgroosAre you saying that the problem with the edubuntu forums are that they are too techno?  Not newbie enough?14:47
SvenstaroThere are effectively no Edubuntu forums14:48
dgroosAre you saying that the tech folk and the teach folk speak past one another?14:48
SvenstaroBut yes, at least where I live, the schools act *totally* differently compared to Edubuntu's approach.14:48
SvenstaroI'll probably get a job to deploy Linux at my school but Edubuntu isn't making it easy.14:48
SvenstaroNeither is Skolelinux.14:48
dgroosWhere do you live?14:49
SvenstaroI have to say that, without personal offense, all educational Linux distros so far suck when it comes to user friendlyness and documentation.14:49
SvenstaroNorthern Germany14:49
SvenstaroI think I can say I'm a Linux expert, so I should have no trouble reading docs meant for teachers. Turns out, I do!14:50
SvenstaroEven Skolelinux, which thinks it's the greatest, sucks when it comes to documentation.14:50
SvenstaroIt can't be so hard to make a top-down approach :/14:51
dgroosWhat do you mean by a top-down approach?14:51
SvenstaroDefine abstract stuff first, THEN do technical work.14:51
SvenstaroYou know, I'm usually now a fan of that but it's the only way this will ever work out.14:52
SvenstaroA huge thing like a education distro needs to be designed before it is made.14:52
dgroosvision-goals-objectives-tasks-assessment thing?14:52
SvenstaroDefine clear goals, define your target group, work out how, logically speaking, you will address user-friendlyness, how documentation is going to be synced with technical completion.14:53
ograSvenstaro, we have collections of abstract stuff from four years ... but nobody to implement anything of it14:53
SvenstaroPretty much, yes.14:53
dgroosSo the issue isn't the goals/objective thing, but the time/focus issue?14:54
ograno, the actual developers edubuntu doesnt have14:55
ograthere is tons and tons of written stuff and ideas around edubuntu14:55
ograthe "have an edubuntu only forum" idea is at least 4 years old14:55
ograyou need people doing the work ... there are none14:55
dgroosWhy do you think edubuntu doesn't have developers but, as you are saying I think, other parts or the linux world do have developers?14:57
ograbecause i'm the guy who built edubuntu until i moved to other duties in ubuntu land two years ago14:58
dgroos:) I do see your name written all over the place :)14:58
ograwhen i moved on, nobody maintained anything at all ... LaserJock roughly kept the packages in shape14:59
ograsince several months there is some initiative again14:59
ograthe point is that everyone relied on me doing the job fulltime ... so nobody stepped up14:59
ogra... when i left14:59
dgroosAs I understand, it's all volunteer work, right?15:00
ograthe first thing (what highvoltage, stgraber and LaserJock actually try to achieve) is to find a developer community now, willing to invest time and work15:01
ograelse edubuntu wont come to life again15:01
ograthey do a great job in that, but its still in its early stages15:01
ogradgroos, i'm a paid canonical dev ... until i left it was mostly non volunteer work with very few volunteers helping ... mainly the three persons above15:02
ograwhat i wanted to point out though regarding Svenstaro's comment is that you need people that actually do work, else every abstract idea is a dead idea15:03
SvenstaroI'm willing, but nobody gives me priviliges. I'm again short of starting my own distro and forking what I can use from Edubuntu and debianedu.15:04
ograjust come to the edubuntu meetings, i'm sure one of the three current drivers will give you some privileges :)15:05
ograengage and you will recieve ;)15:05
SvenstaroI also think the whole ISO building process is rather complicated. I can't just start, I need to rely on various people doing various things for me and getting into agreement. It is not very encouraging for volunteers to be this complicated to maintain.15:05
ograyou dont have to care about iso building15:05
ograthe ubuntu build system will do everything15:06
SvenstaroTake for example Arch Linux as a counter example, I can just go there and do my thing and it will be acknowledged. But it is all so horribly complicated in *buntu.15:06
SvenstaroYeah, but I can't rebuild on my own to see if some hooks worked, for example.15:06
SvenstaroI need to wait a full day for the rebuild to happen.15:06
ograno15:07
ograyou just ask the right person do do a rebuild15:07
SvenstaroAnd then there are issues because the new release might be bigger than 700MB, oh no!15:07
ograthen you make a change and ask the person again15:07
ograand soon its less than 700M :)15:07
ograjust get involved15:08
SvenstaroHuh?15:08
SvenstaroThere's going to be a full live LTSP on there, how is it going to be less?15:08
ograthe rest will solve itself ... what edubuntu needs is active people wanting to help and actually investing time15:08
SvenstaroOn a DVD release, we might be able to push 2GB easily with some introductional videos.15:08
SvenstaroWhat Edubuntu needs is a less complicated process for contributors.15:08
ograwith a DVD you will exclude the majority of existing edubuntu users though15:09
SvenstaroAnd there we go again :/15:09
ograthe edubuntu contribution process is identical to the ubuntu one15:09
SvenstaroIf we can't even settle on just doing a DVD, how are we ever going to move forward?15:09
ograif you want a live LTSP on the CD, free up 200M15:09
SvenstaroYes, that's actually part of the reason why I'm not a Ubuntu contributor :/15:09
SvenstaroI don't want a live LTSP on the CD, that's impossible.15:10
SvenstaroIf you want to include a decent user experience that is.15:10
ograhow do you expect the process to change if you dont help changing it then ?15:10
ograits not impossible15:10
ografedora and suse do it15:10
ograanyway ...15:11
* ogra has to go back to his actual work15:11
SvenstaroOkay, first change I'd make if people let me is set up a properly organized MEDIA WIKI and put the old docs in there, discarding what is now irrelevant.15:12
SvenstaroSecond change is combining the Edubuntu seeds and making it into a combined Live DVD with LTSP and itroductional videos.15:12
SvenstaroThird is making the user applications workable and integrate them properly.15:12
ograput all that on the agenda for next edubuntu meeting, talk to stgraber, highvoltage and LaserJock :)15:13
SvenstaroI know how to assemble a Linux distro from scatch, write user applications, script, set up web applications and security measures.15:13
SvenstaroAnd I want write access to the Edubuntu site, it needs a major revamp.15:13
dgroosWhen is the next Edubuntu meeting?  Where do I find the dates?15:13
ograthey are usually announced early on the edubuntu-users ML15:14
SvenstaroCan I announce one?15:14
ograSvenstaro, i'm sure the last can be achieved within minutes15:14
ograif you catch one of the three15:14
ograwell, you shouldnt announce one without having talked to one of the current edubuntu people :)15:15
SvenstaroYes, and then there's the thing of trust that I might be screwing carelessly with an official Canonical site.15:15
SvenstaroI don't think I'd get access that easily.15:15
ograyou do15:15
ograedubuntu.org is kept on a separate server deliberately15:15
SvenstaroYou are an Edubuntu guy, how about on 08.07.09, 20:00 CEST?15:16
ograi think highvoltage can give you access to it15:16
ograSvenstaro, i'm not :) i just hang around here15:16
ogramy work duties dont leave me any time for edubuntu15:16
dgroosAlright Svenstaro--get your access, set up the meeting, then help me solve some of my tech issues, alright?! :-)15:16
SvenstaroAw come on, you don't feel responsible for Edubuntu anymore? ;)15:16
Svenstarodgroos, what kind of tech issues?15:17
ograi do, thats why i'm talking to you ... but thats about it ...15:17
ograthe last 20min of chatting i did here will make my workday 20min longer15:17
Svenstaroalso, I need to correct you I guess, the announce list is edubuntu-devel of course15:17
ograit should be announced on both15:18
SvenstaroIt might make the work day of IT teachers 2 hours shorter, though.15:18
SvenstaroDoesn't seem to be the case if you look at the archives.15:18
ogramight be, but ubuntu wont have an ARM port next release if i dont go back to work now :)15:18
dgroosI keep thinking about these people who develop open source software, how cool that is.  And then I think about what I'm doing with my project--working to integrate computers running open source, and that is cool, too.  It is 'work beyond the workday' even though often during the work day.15:18
dgroosSomehow, I think youse are suggesting, we need to keep talking so maybe come more together...15:19
Svenstaroogra, right, enjoy yourself then. I'll try and actually do what you suggested.15:19
ograwell, there are only 24 in a day ... my workday means usually 16h of these on 6-7 days a week being occupied15:19
dgroosogra: I know what you mean :-)  This is my 'summer off' and all I can think about is this server and thin clients I've got set up in my basement...15:20
highvoltageSvenstaro: access to the edubuntu site won't be that dicfficult, we would just like to get to know you a little better15:21
SvenstaroWell I've been ranting on and off around in this channel for a couple of weeks now :P15:21
dgroosAnyway, thanks ogra for your 'above and beyond'.15:21
ograwelcome ... and hi highvoltage :)15:22
dgrooshi highvoltage--that sounds really dangerous ;)15:22
highvoltageSvenstaro: well, watch the edubuntu-devel list for when the next meeting is scheduled, we'll have one again soon, then you can add those items to the agenda15:22
highvoltagehi ogra and dgroos15:22
highvoltagedgroos: heh.15:23
SvenstaroOh, the waiting again. This is little motivating again.15:23
highvoltageSvenstaro: have you signed the ubuntu code of conduct?15:23
SvenstaroI believe not15:23
SvenstaroThis thing: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct ?15:23
highvoltageSvenstaro: yes, you can do it through launchpad.15:24
dgroosgo for it Svenstaro!15:24
highvoltageSvenstaro: and do you have a wiki page introducing yourself on the ubuntu wiki?15:24
SvenstaroNo, I'm honestly not a big Ubuntu fan because I'm mainly a developer but Edubuntu seems to have the best for an educational distro so I'm sticking around here.15:25
highvoltageSvenstaro: ok. fwiw wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.ubuntu.com is the same wiki, so if it makes you feel better you can add your page to the ubuntu wiki :)15:26
highvoltageSvenstaro: but you'll have to sign the Ubuntu CoC if you want write access on the wiki, at the very minimum15:26
SvenstaroIs there any possibility at all we can ever settle the DVD vs CD debate?15:27
dgroosor instead a flashdrive?15:28
SvenstaroThat one as well15:28
SvenstaroNot instead, but rather additionally.15:28
dgroosSo, Svenstaro, hope you decide to jump aboard.  I do have some tech questions if you don't mind...?15:31
dgroosI'm trying to re-install localapps but I get an error at the first stage--creating the chroot.15:34
Svenstar0Oh dear, I just d/c'd.15:34
Svenstar0Did you say anything I didn't get?15:34
dgroos:)15:35
dgroosI'll copy and paste... (or is there a better way on the IRC?)15:35
dgroos[09:31am] dgroos: So, Svenstaro, hope you decide to jump aboard.  I do have some tech questions if you don't mind...?15:35
dgroos[09:34am] dgroos: I'm trying to re-install localapps but I get an error at the first stage--creating the chroot.15:35
Svenstar0I'm not a terminal server expert and documentation about that one is rare as well.15:37
dgroosI'll throw it out there and if you can point me somewhere that would be great, otherwise, I've got more questions :)15:38
dgrooshere's the output: WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!  libxcb1 ltsp-client-core libxcb-render0 ldm ltspfsd rdesktop ltsp-client  E: There are problems and -y was used without --force-yes.15:38
Svenstar0That one's obvious, isn't it`?15:40
Svenstar0Nothing to do with localapps.15:40
dgroosobvious to 'one who knows' :-)15:40
Svenstar0The sign key doesn't validate, likely because it is missing.15:40
dgroosI've got all my sources validated15:40
Svenstar0If you had just googled it you would have gotten answer :/15:40
Svenstar0in the chroot even?15:41
dgrooscareful!  I googled for a couple of hours :-)15:41
Svenstar0Just override the verification mechanism and you should be fine.15:42
Svenstar0Which script are you calling?15:42
alkisgdgroos: have you put stgraber's ppa to your chroot sources?15:43
dgroosYes, and authenticated...15:43
alkisgin the chroot, do: apt-key list15:43
alkisgDo you have a key that says: Launchpad PPA for St├ęphane Graber ?15:44
dgroosalkisg: how do i do that 'in the chroot?'15:44
alkisgsudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-key list15:44
dgroosSvenstar0: I found it at last--the command I used was: sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps --copy-sourceslist.15:46
dgroosalkisg: I'll do it...15:46
dgroosalkisg: It only mentions the: Ubuntu Archive Automatic Signing Key and Ubuntu CD Image Automatic Signing Key.15:48
alkisgOK, you don't have the key, that's the problem. Run this: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-key adv --recv-keys --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com E7716B1315:48
dgroosCool... it worked!  And I'll do it with the iTALC and sbalneav ones too, ay?15:49
alkisgdgroos: yes, but you'll need different key numbers for them.15:50
dgroosright, I can find them.  Also, I tried to sudo rm -r the chroots I created that are ill formed but it said I couldn't because something about can't delete something in mount...15:51
alkisgMaybe you have the /proc still mounted? Do a reboot to get rid of every problem :)15:52
dgroosalkisg: will do :)15:53
dgroosOK... added keys, rebooted, rm ill-formed chroots, creating new chroot...16:20
dgroosthis takes awhile, in the meantime, Svenstar0... can you help me think about java on ubuntu?16:21
dgroosI've got sun-java6 running on my server (2 processor, dual core xeon processors at 2.8 GB w/ 3 gigs of ram)16:23
dgroosNone the less, when I do a simulation like this: http://phet.colorado.edu/simulations/sims.php?sim=Salts_and_Solubility it doesn't run nearly so smoothly as on my mac even on much less powerful hardware16:24
dgroosThese simulations are very powerful in science education--they allow students to interract with a model, helping them visualize and understand the relationships between the parts.16:26
dgroosalkisg: Hmmm... I gave this command: sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps2 --copy-sourceslist, and 10 minutes later it gave the same WARNING about 'cannot be authenticated', noting the same packages: libxcb1 ltsp-client-core libxcb-render0 ldm ltspfsd rdesktop ltsp-client.  Any idea?16:32
alkisgdgroos: you have stgraber ppa in your /etc/apt/sources.list, so by copying the sources you copy that to the chroot.16:34
alkisgIf it's a warning, ignore it; if it's an error, temporarilily remove stgrabers' ppa16:34
dgroosalkisg: it said: "error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally"  So I'll do as you say, I'll uncheck stgraber from the source list and try again.  Thanks for your help, again.16:36
sowmithryhi16:46
dgroosalkisg: Welcome back :)20:59
alkisghey dgroos, hi all21:00
alkisgOn Karmic now, migrating my accounts etc... :)21:01
dgroosI reran the ltsp-build-client and while there was an error (usplash-theme-ubuntu is already the newest version.  usplash-theme-ubuntu set to manually installed.  E: Couldn't find package ldm-ubuntu-theme error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally) it doesn't looks so bad...21:01
dgroosalkisg: right?21:02
alkisgSo was the chroot and the image generated?21:02
dgrooswell, the ltsp/i386_w_localapps4 directory was created and looks populated inside, there was no new image in ltsp/images.21:05
alkisgdgroos, well, I don't know, if it says "ended abnormally" then it doesn't look too good to me.21:06
dgroos:( I had hoped that maybe the image was created at a further step?  Is the command I mentioned: sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps --copy-sourceslist, supposed to create the image, also?21:11
alkisgUm, I don't remember because I usually use the alternate cd which does all this automatically. Well, you could try `sudo ltsp-update-image` if you want...21:19
dgroosI too used the alternate CD--what do you mean, does this all for you??21:19
alkisgI builds the chroot and generates the image. But well it seems that you want a second chroot, so... :)21:23
alkisg*it21:25
dgroosRight I see, I'm 'just following the directions' :) on the page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPLocalAppsJaunty but I've been thinking, maybe I'm being too cautious... and ought to operate on the chroot installed during initial process.21:26
alkisgYeah, I'd just make a backup of this chroot and operate on that.21:27
dgroosI'll backup the chroot, then operate on the original... (took the words right out of my fingers :)21:27
dgroosA good command for that would be... ?  Anything special I need to do to make the backup?  Thanks.21:28
alkisgI guess... (1) rm -rf /opt/ltsp/i386_w_localapps (2) sudo cp -a /opt/ltsp /opt/ltsp-backup21:29
dgroosalkisg: got it, thanks, I'll now operate on the original.21:32

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