[01:01] I am having problems with the gcompris app, is this the rigth channel? [03:21] Good Evening All, [03:22] I'm trying to re-do the localapps on Jaunty as per these instructions: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPLocalAppsJaunty#preview [03:23] I'm making a new chroot at the first stage of the instructions and getting this warning: [03:24] WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated! [03:24] libxcb1 ltsp-client-core libxcb-render0 ldm ltspfsd rdesktop ltsp-client [03:24] E: There are problems and -y was used without --force-yes [03:24] error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally [03:24] I've got authentication keys for all my sources so not sure why it says that. [03:26] Anyone know what command I could use instead of or in addition to this to force the yes? sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps --copy-sourceslist [09:29] hello [14:03] We need a separate Edubuntu forum. [14:03] People looking into the official Ubuntu forums are desktop users. [14:03] We want to address educators, that's a totally different group. === alkisg1 is now known as alkisg [14:37] Hi Svenstaro, what would this forum look like? [14:38] Ubuntu forums basically but a completely separate Edubuntu category. [14:38] Edubuntu has a *completely* other target group than say Ubuntu. [14:38] Different problems, different users, different uses. [14:40] Indeed. Like the huge mass underwater of the ice berg, the pedagogical realities of a teacher's job remains hidden. [14:41] While we are concerned with the technology, the crucial point is how to use this technology to engage students, day after day, in a variety of activities, so as students learn a wide variety of material. [14:42] Ironically, the technology is not only a powerful tool. [14:43] It can also be a curse :-) [14:44] And thinking back to that quote Einstein was said to have made, 'If you think your troubles in math are bad, mine are much worse." [14:45] I'm sure that the people on this list who are technological wizards are coping, routinely, with technology headaches :) [14:45] So who is responsible for this? [14:45] For which? [14:45] Ubuntu forums? [14:45] ?What do you mean? [14:46] I want separate forums :D [14:46] I hate how activity around Edubuntu froze again [14:47] Are you saying that the problem with the edubuntu forums are that they are too techno? Not newbie enough? [14:48] There are effectively no Edubuntu forums [14:48] Are you saying that the tech folk and the teach folk speak past one another? [14:48] But yes, at least where I live, the schools act *totally* differently compared to Edubuntu's approach. [14:48] I'll probably get a job to deploy Linux at my school but Edubuntu isn't making it easy. [14:48] Neither is Skolelinux. [14:49] Where do you live? [14:49] I have to say that, without personal offense, all educational Linux distros so far suck when it comes to user friendlyness and documentation. [14:49] Northern Germany [14:50] I think I can say I'm a Linux expert, so I should have no trouble reading docs meant for teachers. Turns out, I do! [14:50] Even Skolelinux, which thinks it's the greatest, sucks when it comes to documentation. [14:51] It can't be so hard to make a top-down approach :/ [14:51] What do you mean by a top-down approach? [14:51] Define abstract stuff first, THEN do technical work. [14:52] You know, I'm usually now a fan of that but it's the only way this will ever work out. [14:52] A huge thing like a education distro needs to be designed before it is made. [14:52] vision-goals-objectives-tasks-assessment thing? [14:53] Define clear goals, define your target group, work out how, logically speaking, you will address user-friendlyness, how documentation is going to be synced with technical completion. [14:53] Svenstaro, we have collections of abstract stuff from four years ... but nobody to implement anything of it [14:53] Pretty much, yes. [14:54] So the issue isn't the goals/objective thing, but the time/focus issue? [14:55] no, the actual developers edubuntu doesnt have [14:55] there is tons and tons of written stuff and ideas around edubuntu [14:55] the "have an edubuntu only forum" idea is at least 4 years old [14:55] you need people doing the work ... there are none [14:57] Why do you think edubuntu doesn't have developers but, as you are saying I think, other parts or the linux world do have developers? [14:58] because i'm the guy who built edubuntu until i moved to other duties in ubuntu land two years ago [14:58] :) I do see your name written all over the place :) [14:59] when i moved on, nobody maintained anything at all ... LaserJock roughly kept the packages in shape [14:59] since several months there is some initiative again [14:59] the point is that everyone relied on me doing the job fulltime ... so nobody stepped up [14:59] ... when i left [15:00] As I understand, it's all volunteer work, right? [15:01] the first thing (what highvoltage, stgraber and LaserJock actually try to achieve) is to find a developer community now, willing to invest time and work [15:01] else edubuntu wont come to life again [15:01] they do a great job in that, but its still in its early stages [15:02] dgroos, i'm a paid canonical dev ... until i left it was mostly non volunteer work with very few volunteers helping ... mainly the three persons above [15:03] what i wanted to point out though regarding Svenstaro's comment is that you need people that actually do work, else every abstract idea is a dead idea [15:04] I'm willing, but nobody gives me priviliges. I'm again short of starting my own distro and forking what I can use from Edubuntu and debianedu. [15:05] just come to the edubuntu meetings, i'm sure one of the three current drivers will give you some privileges :) [15:05] engage and you will recieve ;) [15:05] I also think the whole ISO building process is rather complicated. I can't just start, I need to rely on various people doing various things for me and getting into agreement. It is not very encouraging for volunteers to be this complicated to maintain. [15:05] you dont have to care about iso building [15:06] the ubuntu build system will do everything [15:06] Take for example Arch Linux as a counter example, I can just go there and do my thing and it will be acknowledged. But it is all so horribly complicated in *buntu. [15:06] Yeah, but I can't rebuild on my own to see if some hooks worked, for example. [15:06] I need to wait a full day for the rebuild to happen. [15:07] no [15:07] you just ask the right person do do a rebuild [15:07] And then there are issues because the new release might be bigger than 700MB, oh no! [15:07] then you make a change and ask the person again [15:07] and soon its less than 700M :) [15:08] just get involved [15:08] Huh? [15:08] There's going to be a full live LTSP on there, how is it going to be less? [15:08] the rest will solve itself ... what edubuntu needs is active people wanting to help and actually investing time [15:08] On a DVD release, we might be able to push 2GB easily with some introductional videos. [15:08] What Edubuntu needs is a less complicated process for contributors. [15:09] with a DVD you will exclude the majority of existing edubuntu users though [15:09] And there we go again :/ [15:09] the edubuntu contribution process is identical to the ubuntu one [15:09] If we can't even settle on just doing a DVD, how are we ever going to move forward? [15:09] if you want a live LTSP on the CD, free up 200M [15:09] Yes, that's actually part of the reason why I'm not a Ubuntu contributor :/ [15:10] I don't want a live LTSP on the CD, that's impossible. [15:10] If you want to include a decent user experience that is. [15:10] how do you expect the process to change if you dont help changing it then ? [15:10] its not impossible [15:10] fedora and suse do it [15:11] anyway ... [15:11] * ogra has to go back to his actual work [15:12] Okay, first change I'd make if people let me is set up a properly organized MEDIA WIKI and put the old docs in there, discarding what is now irrelevant. [15:12] Second change is combining the Edubuntu seeds and making it into a combined Live DVD with LTSP and itroductional videos. [15:12] Third is making the user applications workable and integrate them properly. [15:13] put all that on the agenda for next edubuntu meeting, talk to stgraber, highvoltage and LaserJock :) [15:13] I know how to assemble a Linux distro from scatch, write user applications, script, set up web applications and security measures. [15:13] And I want write access to the Edubuntu site, it needs a major revamp. [15:13] When is the next Edubuntu meeting? Where do I find the dates? [15:14] they are usually announced early on the edubuntu-users ML [15:14] Can I announce one? [15:14] Svenstaro, i'm sure the last can be achieved within minutes [15:14] if you catch one of the three [15:15] well, you shouldnt announce one without having talked to one of the current edubuntu people :) [15:15] Yes, and then there's the thing of trust that I might be screwing carelessly with an official Canonical site. [15:15] I don't think I'd get access that easily. [15:15] you do [15:15] edubuntu.org is kept on a separate server deliberately [15:16] You are an Edubuntu guy, how about on 08.07.09, 20:00 CEST? [15:16] i think highvoltage can give you access to it [15:16] Svenstaro, i'm not :) i just hang around here [15:16] my work duties dont leave me any time for edubuntu [15:16] Alright Svenstaro--get your access, set up the meeting, then help me solve some of my tech issues, alright?! :-) [15:16] Aw come on, you don't feel responsible for Edubuntu anymore? ;) [15:17] dgroos, what kind of tech issues? [15:17] i do, thats why i'm talking to you ... but thats about it ... [15:17] the last 20min of chatting i did here will make my workday 20min longer [15:17] also, I need to correct you I guess, the announce list is edubuntu-devel of course [15:18] it should be announced on both [15:18] It might make the work day of IT teachers 2 hours shorter, though. [15:18] Doesn't seem to be the case if you look at the archives. [15:18] might be, but ubuntu wont have an ARM port next release if i dont go back to work now :) [15:18] I keep thinking about these people who develop open source software, how cool that is. And then I think about what I'm doing with my project--working to integrate computers running open source, and that is cool, too. It is 'work beyond the workday' even though often during the work day. [15:19] Somehow, I think youse are suggesting, we need to keep talking so maybe come more together... [15:19] ogra, right, enjoy yourself then. I'll try and actually do what you suggested. [15:19] well, there are only 24 in a day ... my workday means usually 16h of these on 6-7 days a week being occupied [15:20] ogra: I know what you mean :-) This is my 'summer off' and all I can think about is this server and thin clients I've got set up in my basement... [15:21] Svenstaro: access to the edubuntu site won't be that dicfficult, we would just like to get to know you a little better [15:21] Well I've been ranting on and off around in this channel for a couple of weeks now :P [15:21] Anyway, thanks ogra for your 'above and beyond'. [15:22] welcome ... and hi highvoltage :) [15:22] hi highvoltage--that sounds really dangerous ;) [15:22] Svenstaro: well, watch the edubuntu-devel list for when the next meeting is scheduled, we'll have one again soon, then you can add those items to the agenda [15:22] hi ogra and dgroos [15:23] dgroos: heh. [15:23] Oh, the waiting again. This is little motivating again. [15:23] Svenstaro: have you signed the ubuntu code of conduct? [15:23] I believe not [15:23] This thing: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct ? [15:24] Svenstaro: yes, you can do it through launchpad. [15:24] go for it Svenstaro! [15:24] Svenstaro: and do you have a wiki page introducing yourself on the ubuntu wiki? [15:25] No, I'm honestly not a big Ubuntu fan because I'm mainly a developer but Edubuntu seems to have the best for an educational distro so I'm sticking around here. [15:26] Svenstaro: ok. fwiw wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.ubuntu.com is the same wiki, so if it makes you feel better you can add your page to the ubuntu wiki :) [15:26] Svenstaro: but you'll have to sign the Ubuntu CoC if you want write access on the wiki, at the very minimum [15:27] Is there any possibility at all we can ever settle the DVD vs CD debate? [15:28] or instead a flashdrive? [15:28] That one as well [15:28] Not instead, but rather additionally. [15:31] So, Svenstaro, hope you decide to jump aboard. I do have some tech questions if you don't mind...? [15:34] I'm trying to re-install localapps but I get an error at the first stage--creating the chroot. [15:34] Oh dear, I just d/c'd. [15:34] Did you say anything I didn't get? [15:35] :) [15:35] I'll copy and paste... (or is there a better way on the IRC?) [15:35] [09:31am] dgroos: So, Svenstaro, hope you decide to jump aboard. I do have some tech questions if you don't mind...? [15:35] [09:34am] dgroos: I'm trying to re-install localapps but I get an error at the first stage--creating the chroot. [15:37] I'm not a terminal server expert and documentation about that one is rare as well. [15:38] I'll throw it out there and if you can point me somewhere that would be great, otherwise, I've got more questions :) [15:38] here's the output: WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated! libxcb1 ltsp-client-core libxcb-render0 ldm ltspfsd rdesktop ltsp-client E: There are problems and -y was used without --force-yes. [15:40] That one's obvious, isn't it`? [15:40] Nothing to do with localapps. [15:40] obvious to 'one who knows' :-) [15:40] The sign key doesn't validate, likely because it is missing. [15:40] I've got all my sources validated [15:40] If you had just googled it you would have gotten answer :/ [15:41] in the chroot even? [15:41] careful! I googled for a couple of hours :-) [15:42] Just override the verification mechanism and you should be fine. [15:42] Which script are you calling? [15:43] dgroos: have you put stgraber's ppa to your chroot sources? [15:43] Yes, and authenticated... [15:43] in the chroot, do: apt-key list [15:44] Do you have a key that says: Launchpad PPA for Stéphane Graber ? [15:44] alkisg: how do i do that 'in the chroot?' [15:44] sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-key list [15:46] Svenstar0: I found it at last--the command I used was: sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps --copy-sourceslist. [15:46] alkisg: I'll do it... [15:48] alkisg: It only mentions the: Ubuntu Archive Automatic Signing Key and Ubuntu CD Image Automatic Signing Key. [15:48] OK, you don't have the key, that's the problem. Run this: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-key adv --recv-keys --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com E7716B13 [15:49] Cool... it worked! And I'll do it with the iTALC and sbalneav ones too, ay? [15:50] dgroos: yes, but you'll need different key numbers for them. [15:51] right, I can find them. Also, I tried to sudo rm -r the chroots I created that are ill formed but it said I couldn't because something about can't delete something in mount... [15:52] Maybe you have the /proc still mounted? Do a reboot to get rid of every problem :) [15:53] alkisg: will do :) [16:20] OK... added keys, rebooted, rm ill-formed chroots, creating new chroot... [16:21] this takes awhile, in the meantime, Svenstar0... can you help me think about java on ubuntu? [16:23] I've got sun-java6 running on my server (2 processor, dual core xeon processors at 2.8 GB w/ 3 gigs of ram) [16:24] None the less, when I do a simulation like this: http://phet.colorado.edu/simulations/sims.php?sim=Salts_and_Solubility it doesn't run nearly so smoothly as on my mac even on much less powerful hardware [16:26] These simulations are very powerful in science education--they allow students to interract with a model, helping them visualize and understand the relationships between the parts. [16:32] alkisg: Hmmm... I gave this command: sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps2 --copy-sourceslist, and 10 minutes later it gave the same WARNING about 'cannot be authenticated', noting the same packages: libxcb1 ltsp-client-core libxcb-render0 ldm ltspfsd rdesktop ltsp-client. Any idea? [16:34] dgroos: you have stgraber ppa in your /etc/apt/sources.list, so by copying the sources you copy that to the chroot. [16:34] If it's a warning, ignore it; if it's an error, temporarilily remove stgrabers' ppa [16:36] alkisg: it said: "error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally" So I'll do as you say, I'll uncheck stgraber from the source list and try again. Thanks for your help, again. [16:46] hi [20:59] alkisg: Welcome back :) [21:00] hey dgroos, hi all [21:01] On Karmic now, migrating my accounts etc... :) [21:01] I reran the ltsp-build-client and while there was an error (usplash-theme-ubuntu is already the newest version. usplash-theme-ubuntu set to manually installed. E: Couldn't find package ldm-ubuntu-theme error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally) it doesn't looks so bad... [21:02] alkisg: right? [21:02] So was the chroot and the image generated? [21:05] well, the ltsp/i386_w_localapps4 directory was created and looks populated inside, there was no new image in ltsp/images. [21:06] dgroos, well, I don't know, if it says "ended abnormally" then it doesn't look too good to me. [21:11] :( I had hoped that maybe the image was created at a further step? Is the command I mentioned: sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps --copy-sourceslist, supposed to create the image, also? [21:19] Um, I don't remember because I usually use the alternate cd which does all this automatically. Well, you could try `sudo ltsp-update-image` if you want... [21:19] I too used the alternate CD--what do you mean, does this all for you?? [21:23] I builds the chroot and generates the image. But well it seems that you want a second chroot, so... :) [21:25] *it [21:26] Right I see, I'm 'just following the directions' :) on the page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPLocalAppsJaunty but I've been thinking, maybe I'm being too cautious... and ought to operate on the chroot installed during initial process. [21:27] Yeah, I'd just make a backup of this chroot and operate on that. [21:27] I'll backup the chroot, then operate on the original... (took the words right out of my fingers :) [21:28] A good command for that would be... ? Anything special I need to do to make the backup? Thanks. [21:29] I guess... (1) rm -rf /opt/ltsp/i386_w_localapps (2) sudo cp -a /opt/ltsp /opt/ltsp-backup [21:32] alkisg: got it, thanks, I'll now operate on the original.