[01:01] <roberto_> I am having problems with the gcompris app, is this the rigth channel?
[03:21] <dgroos> Good Evening All,
[03:22] <dgroos> I'm trying to re-do the localapps on Jaunty as per these instructions: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPLocalAppsJaunty#preview
[03:23] <dgroos> I'm making a new chroot at the first stage of the instructions and getting this warning:
[03:24] <dgroos> WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!
[03:24] <dgroos>   libxcb1 ltsp-client-core libxcb-render0 ldm ltspfsd rdesktop ltsp-client
[03:24] <dgroos> E: There are problems and -y was used without --force-yes
[03:24] <dgroos> error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally
[03:24] <dgroos> I've got authentication keys for all my sources so not sure why it says that.
[03:26] <dgroos> Anyone know what command I could use instead of or in addition to this to force the yes? sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps --copy-sourceslist
[09:29] <debianero> hello
[14:03] <Svenstaro> We need a separate Edubuntu forum.
[14:03] <Svenstaro> People looking into the official Ubuntu forums are desktop users.
[14:03] <Svenstaro> We want to address educators, that's a totally different group.
[14:37] <dgroos> Hi Svenstaro, what would this forum look like?
[14:38] <Svenstaro> Ubuntu forums basically but a completely separate Edubuntu category.
[14:38] <Svenstaro> Edubuntu has a *completely* other target group than say Ubuntu.
[14:38] <Svenstaro> Different problems, different users, different uses.
[14:40] <dgroos> Indeed. Like the huge mass underwater of the ice berg, the pedagogical realities of a teacher's job remains hidden.
[14:41] <dgroos> While we are concerned with the technology, the crucial point is how to use this technology to engage students, day after day, in a variety of activities, so as students learn a wide variety of material.
[14:42] <dgroos> Ironically, the technology is not only a powerful tool.
[14:43] <dgroos> It can also be a curse :-)
[14:44] <dgroos> And thinking back to that quote Einstein was said to have made, 'If you think your troubles in math are bad, mine are much worse."
[14:45] <dgroos> I'm sure that the people on this list who are technological wizards are coping, routinely, with technology headaches :)
[14:45] <Svenstaro> So who is responsible for this?
[14:45] <dgroos> For which?
[14:45] <Svenstaro> Ubuntu forums?
[14:45] <dgroos> ?What do you mean?
[14:46] <Svenstaro> I want separate forums :D
[14:46] <Svenstaro> I hate how activity around Edubuntu froze again
[14:47] <dgroos> Are you saying that the problem with the edubuntu forums are that they are too techno?  Not newbie enough?
[14:48] <Svenstaro> There are effectively no Edubuntu forums
[14:48] <dgroos> Are you saying that the tech folk and the teach folk speak past one another?
[14:48] <Svenstaro> But yes, at least where I live, the schools act *totally* differently compared to Edubuntu's approach.
[14:48] <Svenstaro> I'll probably get a job to deploy Linux at my school but Edubuntu isn't making it easy.
[14:48] <Svenstaro> Neither is Skolelinux.
[14:49] <dgroos> Where do you live?
[14:49] <Svenstaro> I have to say that, without personal offense, all educational Linux distros so far suck when it comes to user friendlyness and documentation.
[14:49] <Svenstaro> Northern Germany
[14:50] <Svenstaro> I think I can say I'm a Linux expert, so I should have no trouble reading docs meant for teachers. Turns out, I do!
[14:50] <Svenstaro> Even Skolelinux, which thinks it's the greatest, sucks when it comes to documentation.
[14:51] <Svenstaro> It can't be so hard to make a top-down approach :/
[14:51] <dgroos> What do you mean by a top-down approach?
[14:51] <Svenstaro> Define abstract stuff first, THEN do technical work.
[14:52] <Svenstaro> You know, I'm usually now a fan of that but it's the only way this will ever work out.
[14:52] <Svenstaro> A huge thing like a education distro needs to be designed before it is made.
[14:52] <dgroos> vision-goals-objectives-tasks-assessment thing?
[14:53] <Svenstaro> Define clear goals, define your target group, work out how, logically speaking, you will address user-friendlyness, how documentation is going to be synced with technical completion.
[14:53] <ogra> Svenstaro, we have collections of abstract stuff from four years ... but nobody to implement anything of it
[14:53] <Svenstaro> Pretty much, yes.
[14:54] <dgroos> So the issue isn't the goals/objective thing, but the time/focus issue?
[14:55] <ogra> no, the actual developers edubuntu doesnt have
[14:55] <ogra> there is tons and tons of written stuff and ideas around edubuntu
[14:55] <ogra> the "have an edubuntu only forum" idea is at least 4 years old
[14:55] <ogra> you need people doing the work ... there are none
[14:57] <dgroos> Why do you think edubuntu doesn't have developers but, as you are saying I think, other parts or the linux world do have developers?
[14:58] <ogra> because i'm the guy who built edubuntu until i moved to other duties in ubuntu land two years ago
[14:58] <dgroos> :) I do see your name written all over the place :)
[14:59] <ogra> when i moved on, nobody maintained anything at all ... LaserJock roughly kept the packages in shape
[14:59] <ogra> since several months there is some initiative again
[14:59] <ogra> the point is that everyone relied on me doing the job fulltime ... so nobody stepped up
[14:59] <ogra> ... when i left
[15:00] <dgroos> As I understand, it's all volunteer work, right?
[15:01] <ogra> the first thing (what highvoltage, stgraber and LaserJock actually try to achieve) is to find a developer community now, willing to invest time and work
[15:01] <ogra> else edubuntu wont come to life again
[15:01] <ogra> they do a great job in that, but its still in its early stages
[15:02] <ogra> dgroos, i'm a paid canonical dev ... until i left it was mostly non volunteer work with very few volunteers helping ... mainly the three persons above
[15:03] <ogra> what i wanted to point out though regarding Svenstaro's comment is that you need people that actually do work, else every abstract idea is a dead idea
[15:04] <Svenstaro> I'm willing, but nobody gives me priviliges. I'm again short of starting my own distro and forking what I can use from Edubuntu and debianedu.
[15:05] <ogra> just come to the edubuntu meetings, i'm sure one of the three current drivers will give you some privileges :)
[15:05] <ogra> engage and you will recieve ;)
[15:05] <Svenstaro> I also think the whole ISO building process is rather complicated. I can't just start, I need to rely on various people doing various things for me and getting into agreement. It is not very encouraging for volunteers to be this complicated to maintain.
[15:05] <ogra> you dont have to care about iso building
[15:06] <ogra> the ubuntu build system will do everything
[15:06] <Svenstaro> Take for example Arch Linux as a counter example, I can just go there and do my thing and it will be acknowledged. But it is all so horribly complicated in *buntu.
[15:06] <Svenstaro> Yeah, but I can't rebuild on my own to see if some hooks worked, for example.
[15:06] <Svenstaro> I need to wait a full day for the rebuild to happen.
[15:07] <ogra> no
[15:07] <ogra> you just ask the right person do do a rebuild
[15:07] <Svenstaro> And then there are issues because the new release might be bigger than 700MB, oh no!
[15:07] <ogra> then you make a change and ask the person again
[15:07] <ogra> and soon its less than 700M :)
[15:08] <ogra> just get involved
[15:08] <Svenstaro> Huh?
[15:08] <Svenstaro> There's going to be a full live LTSP on there, how is it going to be less?
[15:08] <ogra> the rest will solve itself ... what edubuntu needs is active people wanting to help and actually investing time
[15:08] <Svenstaro> On a DVD release, we might be able to push 2GB easily with some introductional videos.
[15:08] <Svenstaro> What Edubuntu needs is a less complicated process for contributors.
[15:09] <ogra> with a DVD you will exclude the majority of existing edubuntu users though
[15:09] <Svenstaro> And there we go again :/
[15:09] <ogra> the edubuntu contribution process is identical to the ubuntu one
[15:09] <Svenstaro> If we can't even settle on just doing a DVD, how are we ever going to move forward?
[15:09] <ogra> if you want a live LTSP on the CD, free up 200M
[15:09] <Svenstaro> Yes, that's actually part of the reason why I'm not a Ubuntu contributor :/
[15:10] <Svenstaro> I don't want a live LTSP on the CD, that's impossible.
[15:10] <Svenstaro> If you want to include a decent user experience that is.
[15:10] <ogra> how do you expect the process to change if you dont help changing it then ?
[15:10] <ogra> its not impossible
[15:10] <ogra> fedora and suse do it
[15:11] <ogra> anyway ...
[15:11]  * ogra has to go back to his actual work
[15:12] <Svenstaro> Okay, first change I'd make if people let me is set up a properly organized MEDIA WIKI and put the old docs in there, discarding what is now irrelevant.
[15:12] <Svenstaro> Second change is combining the Edubuntu seeds and making it into a combined Live DVD with LTSP and itroductional videos.
[15:12] <Svenstaro> Third is making the user applications workable and integrate them properly.
[15:13] <ogra> put all that on the agenda for next edubuntu meeting, talk to stgraber, highvoltage and LaserJock :)
[15:13] <Svenstaro> I know how to assemble a Linux distro from scatch, write user applications, script, set up web applications and security measures.
[15:13] <Svenstaro> And I want write access to the Edubuntu site, it needs a major revamp.
[15:13] <dgroos> When is the next Edubuntu meeting?  Where do I find the dates?
[15:14] <ogra> they are usually announced early on the edubuntu-users ML
[15:14] <Svenstaro> Can I announce one?
[15:14] <ogra> Svenstaro, i'm sure the last can be achieved within minutes
[15:14] <ogra> if you catch one of the three
[15:15] <ogra> well, you shouldnt announce one without having talked to one of the current edubuntu people :)
[15:15] <Svenstaro> Yes, and then there's the thing of trust that I might be screwing carelessly with an official Canonical site.
[15:15] <Svenstaro> I don't think I'd get access that easily.
[15:15] <ogra> you do
[15:15] <ogra> edubuntu.org is kept on a separate server deliberately
[15:16] <Svenstaro> You are an Edubuntu guy, how about on 08.07.09, 20:00 CEST?
[15:16] <ogra> i think highvoltage can give you access to it
[15:16] <ogra> Svenstaro, i'm not :) i just hang around here
[15:16] <ogra> my work duties dont leave me any time for edubuntu
[15:16] <dgroos> Alright Svenstaro--get your access, set up the meeting, then help me solve some of my tech issues, alright?! :-)
[15:16] <Svenstaro> Aw come on, you don't feel responsible for Edubuntu anymore? ;)
[15:17] <Svenstaro> dgroos, what kind of tech issues?
[15:17] <ogra> i do, thats why i'm talking to you ... but thats about it ...
[15:17] <ogra> the last 20min of chatting i did here will make my workday 20min longer
[15:17] <Svenstaro> also, I need to correct you I guess, the announce list is edubuntu-devel of course
[15:18] <ogra> it should be announced on both
[15:18] <Svenstaro> It might make the work day of IT teachers 2 hours shorter, though.
[15:18] <Svenstaro> Doesn't seem to be the case if you look at the archives.
[15:18] <ogra> might be, but ubuntu wont have an ARM port next release if i dont go back to work now :)
[15:18] <dgroos> I keep thinking about these people who develop open source software, how cool that is.  And then I think about what I'm doing with my project--working to integrate computers running open source, and that is cool, too.  It is 'work beyond the workday' even though often during the work day.
[15:19] <dgroos> Somehow, I think youse are suggesting, we need to keep talking so maybe come more together...
[15:19] <Svenstaro> ogra, right, enjoy yourself then. I'll try and actually do what you suggested.
[15:19] <ogra> well, there are only 24 in a day ... my workday means usually 16h of these on 6-7 days a week being occupied
[15:20] <dgroos> ogra: I know what you mean :-)  This is my 'summer off' and all I can think about is this server and thin clients I've got set up in my basement...
[15:21] <highvoltage> Svenstaro: access to the edubuntu site won't be that dicfficult, we would just like to get to know you a little better
[15:21] <Svenstaro> Well I've been ranting on and off around in this channel for a couple of weeks now :P
[15:21] <dgroos> Anyway, thanks ogra for your 'above and beyond'.
[15:22] <ogra> welcome ... and hi highvoltage :)
[15:22] <dgroos> hi highvoltage--that sounds really dangerous ;)
[15:22] <highvoltage> Svenstaro: well, watch the edubuntu-devel list for when the next meeting is scheduled, we'll have one again soon, then you can add those items to the agenda
[15:22] <highvoltage> hi ogra and dgroos
[15:23] <highvoltage> dgroos: heh.
[15:23] <Svenstaro> Oh, the waiting again. This is little motivating again.
[15:23] <highvoltage> Svenstaro: have you signed the ubuntu code of conduct?
[15:23] <Svenstaro> I believe not
[15:23] <Svenstaro> This thing: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct ?
[15:24] <highvoltage> Svenstaro: yes, you can do it through launchpad.
[15:24] <dgroos> go for it Svenstaro!
[15:24] <highvoltage> Svenstaro: and do you have a wiki page introducing yourself on the ubuntu wiki?
[15:25] <Svenstaro> No, I'm honestly not a big Ubuntu fan because I'm mainly a developer but Edubuntu seems to have the best for an educational distro so I'm sticking around here.
[15:26] <highvoltage> Svenstaro: ok. fwiw wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.ubuntu.com is the same wiki, so if it makes you feel better you can add your page to the ubuntu wiki :)
[15:26] <highvoltage> Svenstaro: but you'll have to sign the Ubuntu CoC if you want write access on the wiki, at the very minimum
[15:27] <Svenstaro> Is there any possibility at all we can ever settle the DVD vs CD debate?
[15:28] <dgroos> or instead a flashdrive?
[15:28] <Svenstaro> That one as well
[15:28] <Svenstaro> Not instead, but rather additionally.
[15:31] <dgroos> So, Svenstaro, hope you decide to jump aboard.  I do have some tech questions if you don't mind...?
[15:34] <dgroos> I'm trying to re-install localapps but I get an error at the first stage--creating the chroot.
[15:34] <Svenstar0> Oh dear, I just d/c'd.
[15:34] <Svenstar0> Did you say anything I didn't get?
[15:35] <dgroos> :)
[15:35] <dgroos> I'll copy and paste... (or is there a better way on the IRC?)
[15:35] <dgroos> [09:31am] dgroos: So, Svenstaro, hope you decide to jump aboard.  I do have some tech questions if you don't mind...?
[15:35] <dgroos> [09:34am] dgroos: I'm trying to re-install localapps but I get an error at the first stage--creating the chroot.
[15:37] <Svenstar0> I'm not a terminal server expert and documentation about that one is rare as well.
[15:38] <dgroos> I'll throw it out there and if you can point me somewhere that would be great, otherwise, I've got more questions :)
[15:38] <dgroos> here's the output: WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!  libxcb1 ltsp-client-core libxcb-render0 ldm ltspfsd rdesktop ltsp-client  E: There are problems and -y was used without --force-yes.
[15:40] <Svenstar0> That one's obvious, isn't it`?
[15:40] <Svenstar0> Nothing to do with localapps.
[15:40] <dgroos> obvious to 'one who knows' :-)
[15:40] <Svenstar0> The sign key doesn't validate, likely because it is missing.
[15:40] <dgroos> I've got all my sources validated
[15:40] <Svenstar0> If you had just googled it you would have gotten answer :/
[15:41] <Svenstar0> in the chroot even?
[15:41] <dgroos> careful!  I googled for a couple of hours :-)
[15:42] <Svenstar0> Just override the verification mechanism and you should be fine.
[15:42] <Svenstar0> Which script are you calling?
[15:43] <alkisg> dgroos: have you put stgraber's ppa to your chroot sources?
[15:43] <dgroos> Yes, and authenticated...
[15:43] <alkisg> in the chroot, do: apt-key list
[15:44] <alkisg> Do you have a key that says: Launchpad PPA for Stéphane Graber ?
[15:44] <dgroos> alkisg: how do i do that 'in the chroot?'
[15:44] <alkisg> sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-key list
[15:46] <dgroos> Svenstar0: I found it at last--the command I used was: sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps --copy-sourceslist.
[15:46] <dgroos> alkisg: I'll do it...
[15:48] <dgroos> alkisg: It only mentions the: Ubuntu Archive Automatic Signing Key and Ubuntu CD Image Automatic Signing Key.
[15:48] <alkisg> OK, you don't have the key, that's the problem. Run this: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-key adv --recv-keys --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com E7716B13
[15:49] <dgroos> Cool... it worked!  And I'll do it with the iTALC and sbalneav ones too, ay?
[15:50] <alkisg> dgroos: yes, but you'll need different key numbers for them.
[15:51] <dgroos> right, I can find them.  Also, I tried to sudo rm -r the chroots I created that are ill formed but it said I couldn't because something about can't delete something in mount...
[15:52] <alkisg> Maybe you have the /proc still mounted? Do a reboot to get rid of every problem :)
[15:53] <dgroos> alkisg: will do :)
[16:20] <dgroos> OK... added keys, rebooted, rm ill-formed chroots, creating new chroot...
[16:21] <dgroos> this takes awhile, in the meantime, Svenstar0... can you help me think about java on ubuntu?
[16:23] <dgroos> I've got sun-java6 running on my server (2 processor, dual core xeon processors at 2.8 GB w/ 3 gigs of ram)
[16:24] <dgroos> None the less, when I do a simulation like this: http://phet.colorado.edu/simulations/sims.php?sim=Salts_and_Solubility it doesn't run nearly so smoothly as on my mac even on much less powerful hardware
[16:26] <dgroos> These simulations are very powerful in science education--they allow students to interract with a model, helping them visualize and understand the relationships between the parts.
[16:32] <dgroos> alkisg: Hmmm... I gave this command: sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps2 --copy-sourceslist, and 10 minutes later it gave the same WARNING about 'cannot be authenticated', noting the same packages: libxcb1 ltsp-client-core libxcb-render0 ldm ltspfsd rdesktop ltsp-client.  Any idea?
[16:34] <alkisg> dgroos: you have stgraber ppa in your /etc/apt/sources.list, so by copying the sources you copy that to the chroot.
[16:34] <alkisg> If it's a warning, ignore it; if it's an error, temporarilily remove stgrabers' ppa
[16:36] <dgroos> alkisg: it said: "error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally"  So I'll do as you say, I'll uncheck stgraber from the source list and try again.  Thanks for your help, again.
[16:46] <sowmithry> hi
[20:59] <dgroos> alkisg: Welcome back :)
[21:00] <alkisg> hey dgroos, hi all
[21:01] <alkisg> On Karmic now, migrating my accounts etc... :)
[21:01] <dgroos> I reran the ltsp-build-client and while there was an error (usplash-theme-ubuntu is already the newest version.  usplash-theme-ubuntu set to manually installed.  E: Couldn't find package ldm-ubuntu-theme error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally) it doesn't looks so bad...
[21:02] <dgroos> alkisg: right?
[21:02] <alkisg> So was the chroot and the image generated?
[21:05] <dgroos> well, the ltsp/i386_w_localapps4 directory was created and looks populated inside, there was no new image in ltsp/images.
[21:06] <alkisg> dgroos, well, I don't know, if it says "ended abnormally" then it doesn't look too good to me.
[21:11] <dgroos> :( I had hoped that maybe the image was created at a further step?  Is the command I mentioned: sudo ltsp-build-client --chroot i386_w_localapps --copy-sourceslist, supposed to create the image, also?
[21:19] <alkisg> Um, I don't remember because I usually use the alternate cd which does all this automatically. Well, you could try `sudo ltsp-update-image` if you want...
[21:19] <dgroos> I too used the alternate CD--what do you mean, does this all for you??
[21:23] <alkisg> I builds the chroot and generates the image. But well it seems that you want a second chroot, so... :)
[21:25] <alkisg> *it
[21:26] <dgroos> Right I see, I'm 'just following the directions' :) on the page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPLocalAppsJaunty but I've been thinking, maybe I'm being too cautious... and ought to operate on the chroot installed during initial process.
[21:27] <alkisg> Yeah, I'd just make a backup of this chroot and operate on that.
[21:27] <dgroos> I'll backup the chroot, then operate on the original... (took the words right out of my fingers :)
[21:28] <dgroos> A good command for that would be... ?  Anything special I need to do to make the backup?  Thanks.
[21:29] <alkisg> I guess... (1) rm -rf /opt/ltsp/i386_w_localapps (2) sudo cp -a /opt/ltsp /opt/ltsp-backup
[21:32] <dgroos> alkisg: got it, thanks, I'll now operate on the original.