bodhi_zazen'lo everyone00:00
nhandlerHey bodhi_zazen00:00
bodhi_zazenwho is here for the meeting ?00:00
MootBotMeeting started at 18:01. The chair is bodhi_zazen.00:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]00:01
nhandlerAgenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings00:01
nhandler[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings00:01
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings00:01
bodhi_zazenyou want to do agenda items first ?00:02
nhandlerSure bodhi_zazen, but can we move the first item until the end of the agenda? It will require a little discussion00:02
bodhi_zazenoops ...00:03
bodhi_zazen[TOPIC] Transition from ## to #00:03
MootBotNew Topic:  Transition from ## to #00:03
nhandlerCurrently, we have our FG channels using the naming scheme ##beginners-foo00:03
bodhi_zazenyou are up nhandler00:03
nhandlerAs they are part of our team, they should really use #ubuntu-beginners-foo00:04
swoody+1 nhandler00:04
nhandlerI have talked with Pricey, and there is no Freenode/Ubuntu IRC policy prohibiting this00:04
bodhi_zazenjust for a little history, if I recall long ago we did just this and were asked to move to ##00:04
bodhi_zazenso I do not mind moving back00:04
nhandlerIt will make it clear to other users that the FG channels are in the Ubuntu namespace, and all Ubuntu rules apply in there00:04
bodhi_zazenwe will have to update the wiki - AGAIN - lol00:05
nhandler[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/MovingChannels00:05
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/MovingChannels00:05
Ash_RAt least rocket won't find out until after the holiday.00:05
bodhi_zazenI will move -council00:05
nhandlerThat wiki page explains how to move the channels00:05
nhandlerI would like to ask all FG leaders to move their own channel (if the vote passes)00:05
Joeb454I think it's probably for the best, as you say, makes it clear what the channels are00:05
bodhi_zazendo you want to vote on this ?00:05
nhandlerI think we should bodhi_zazen00:06
Joeb454that said - I think the channel names could become very long00:06
bodhi_zazenLOL nhandler00:06
bodhi_zazen[VOTE] move to #00:06
MootBotPlease vote on:  move to #.00:06
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot00:06
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting00:06
MootBot+1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 100:06
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bodhi_zazenany mor evotes ?00:07
sdennieHuh.  Apparently 0 doesn't mean abstained00:07
nhandlersdennie: +000:07
MootBotAbstention received from sdennie. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 700:07
MootBotFinal result is 7 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 700:07
bodhi_zazen[AGREED]Move to #00:07
MootBotAGREED received: Move to #00:07
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: So you will move -council, and FG leads will move their own channels, correct?00:08
bodhi_zazen[TOPIC] Council members and Focus Group Leaders should sign Leadership Code of Conduct00:08
MootBotNew Topic:  Council members and Focus Group Leaders should sign Leadership Code of Conduct00:08
bodhi_zazenyes nhandler00:08
nhandler[LINK] http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct00:08
MootBotLINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct00:08
Joeb454there's a leadership CoC? lol00:08
nhandlerThe Leadership Code of Conduct holds leaders in the Ubuntu community to a higher standard than the normal Code of Conduct. As Council members and Focus Group leaders are leaders on an official Ubuntu team, I feel that it is important that all members sign the Leadership Code of Conduct in addition to the standard Code of Conduct (which they already should have signed). As Launchpad currently does not offer a place to upload signed copies00:08
* Joeb454 takes a few mins to read the link00:08
bodhi_zazenany commnets on that ?00:09
bodhi_zazenI already signed so pfft :)00:09
Saj0577dont start vote reading time please :D00:09
Joeb454well I think it's fair, though it probably means I need another key, and I'll have to be reminded how to sign things =/00:09
Ash_Ri think its a good idea00:09
bodhi_zazenhow would you have them sign it nhandler00:09
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: The same way as the normal CoC is signed (GPG Clearsign). We would then email it to the -council mailing list, and possibly CC the full team list (if desired)00:10
bodhi_zazenLP does the CoC, does it do the Leadership CoC as well ?00:10
nhandlerThat is why I proposed emailing it to the list00:10
bodhi_zazenWell, it it is not tracked in LP, I do not want to track it either :)00:10
bodhi_zazenI think a signed CoC on LP and awareness of the Leadersip CoC is sufficient00:11
Ash_Rcan we not push for it to be tracked through launchpad?00:11
sdennieI tend to agree with bodhi_zazen on this.  If it's a haphazard method of tracking, it doesn't mean much.00:11
w4ettbodhi_zazen:  +100:11
bodhi_zazennhandler: do any other team require a signed leadership CoC ?00:12
pleia2no, but there is a LP bug about it00:13
ubottuUbuntu bug 392976 in ubuntu-community "Leadership CoC not given to LoCo Leads" [Undecided,New]00:13
pleia2mentions that it probably should be :)00:13
sdennieMaybe we should bring the subject up again if/when the bug is fixed00:13
bodhi_zazen+1 sdennie00:14
Ash_R+1 sdennie00:14
bodhi_zazenand perhaps we should nudge the bug trackers :)00:14
pleia2it's a brand new bug00:14
pleia2only 3 days old00:14
bodhi_zazenany other comments b4 we vote ?00:14
Saj0577I think it is a good idea so why not set the example in saying we should sign it?00:15
nhandlerJust because it is not tracked on LP is no reason not to hold our team leaders to it00:15
swoody+1 nhandler00:15
Ash_Ri agree also00:15
Joeb454I'm sort of mid-field on this one00:15
sdennieSaj0577: Do you plan to get my public key and verify that the stuff at the bottom of my signature is indeed a signature and not just random characters?00:15
swoodyI think it would be a great show if we take the initiative and start a push ourselves00:15
bodhi_zazenholding team leaders to it and gpg signing it are separate though00:16
Joeb454I agree that team leaders should be aware of it, and have read it (I've just finished reading) - but there's no way to see if they have done that00:16
bodhi_zazengpg signing means we need a way to track00:16
sdenniebodhi_zazen: Right.  Holding team leaders to it is fine in my opinion00:16
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: If they have not signed it, they never really agreed to follow it00:16
Ash_Ri have been aware of it for a while.  never seen it mentioned anywhere else though00:16
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: If we have a signed copy of it on the ML, we can track it ;)00:16
bodhi_zazenit does not really matter if they agree nhandler , we will hold them to it anyways, lol00:16
Ash_Rthen that is holding them to something they did not agree to bodhi_zazen00:17
bodhi_zazenindeed Ash_R00:17
Saj0577Ash_R but if they got an objection too it do we really want them as a team leader?00:17
nhandlerThe Leadership CoC is more of a formality. I doubt that any of our current leaders will be violating it (even if unsigned)00:18
bodhi_zazenI do not think it is unreasonable to hold "leaders" to a higher standard00:18
bodhi_zazenand that is the other issue nhandler00:18
Ash_RSaj0577,  having seen the terms they would have had opportunity to back out00:18
cprofittis there even a way to sign it nhandler ?00:18
nhandlercprofitt: GPG clearsign00:18
swoodyI think we should implement it with all new team leads. Sort of like a EULA where they have to accept to abide by the code to become a lead in the first place.00:18
sdennieI really don't see this as an issue.  The Leadership CoC is common sense stuff.  I'd be happy to sign it if there were an official way to track it.  There isn't so, I'm not sure what good signing it will do.00:18
bodhi_zazenpeople who violate the principles generally are not in leadership positions00:18
pleia2On the CoC page: "In addition to this Code of Conduct, we hold our community leaders (such as IRC operators, Forums staff, team leaders and LoCo coordinators) to an even higher standard which is documented in the Leadership Code of Conduct."00:19
pleia2so in theory, leaders *are* bound by it already00:19
cprofittnhandler, but is there a 'process' as there is for the CoC?00:19
bodhi_zazen+1 pleia200:19
Joeb454pleia2: it does? damn...I'm in 3 of those categories ;)00:19
nhandlercprofitt: The 'process' for the normal CoC is mainly to get it to show up on LP. All we would do is GPG clearsign it and email it to the mailing list (which is publicly accessible)00:19
Joeb454but you do have a good point there00:20
bodhi_zazenI think people in leadership are bound by the principles and we should ask them to file a signed CoC on LP00:20
sdennienhandler: But, as I said, is anyone going to go to the trouble to see if it's actually signed or just has a bunch of random characters at the bottom?00:20
bodhi_zazenin addition when LP is able to track a Leadership CoC , add it in00:20
cprofittnhandler, who would record that it had been signed? When it is modified who would send out a notice to re-sign it? If I change my gpg would I have to resign it?00:20
sdennieI agree with bodhi_zazen00:20
nhandlersdennie: I would have no issue verifying all of the signatures00:20
bodhi_zazena signed CoC essentially includes the leadership clauses, IMO00:21
cprofittbodhi_zazen, +100:21
cprofittunless there is a way to track it... I think it is likely more 'trouble' than it is worth00:21
sdennieI say shelve the issue or vote on it.  We are just talking in circles.00:21
cprofittcertainly if a leader violates it they should be questioned by the remaining leaders00:21
nhandlerMost of that 'tracking' stuff you were asking about cprofitt isn't even available for the normal CoC00:21
nhandlerThe Leadership CoC should also remain relatively stable00:21
cprofittnhandler, then I see no value in signatures...00:22
bodhi_zazen[Vote] Leaders gpg sign Leadership CoC00:22
MootBotPlease vote on:  Leaders gpg sign Leadership CoC.00:22
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot00:22
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting00:22
cprofittleaders by default agree to it00:22
MootBot-1 received from sdennie. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -100:22
MootBot-1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -200:22
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MootBotAbstention received from drs305. 0 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -300:22
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MootBotAbstention received from Joeb454. 1 for, 6 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now -500:22
bodhi_zazenany other votes00:23
cprofittthree times for Robert's Rules bodhi_zazen00:23
Ash_Rwe seem to be short on numbers.00:23
cprofittpain, but the process00:24
MootBotFinal result is 1 for, 6 against. 4 abstained. Total: -500:24
bodhi_zazen[VOTE]Bring issue up when we can track the document on LP00:24
MootBotPlease vote on: Bring issue up when we can track the document on LP.00:24
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot00:24
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting00:24
MootBot+1 received from bodhi_zazen. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 100:24
MootBot+1 received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 200:24
MootBot+1 received from Ash_R. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 300:24
MootBot+1 received from swoody. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 400:24
MootBot+1 received from sdennie. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 500:24
MootBot+1 received from w4ett. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 600:25
MootBot+1 received from Saj0577. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 700:25
MootBotAbstention received from cprofitt. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 700:25
MootBotAbstention received from Joeb454. 7 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 700:25
MootBotAbstention received from duanedesign. 7 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 700:25
MootBot+1 received from drs305. 8 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 800:25
bodhi_zazenany mor evotes ?00:25
MootBotFinal result is 8 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 800:25
bodhi_zazen[ACTION]Bring the issue of Leaders signing Leadership CoC when we can track it on LP00:26
MootBotACTION received: Bring the issue of Leaders signing Leadership CoC when we can track it on LP00:26
bodhi_zazen[TOPIC]Get rid of Jedi Fellows00:26
MootBotNew Topic: Get rid of Jedi Fellows00:26
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: Would you (or another council member) like to give a status update of the charter now?00:26
bodhi_zazenREMINDER 30 min left :)00:27
bodhi_zazennhandler: do you want to table your agenda item ?00:27
nhandlerI guess we can do it now (and the status update after)00:27
bodhi_zazenWell, I do not see charter on the agenda00:27
sdennieI talked with nhandler about this topic but, I don't think getting rid of the Jedi Fellows is needed00:27
nhandlerA Jedi Fellow is a Beginners Team member who is also an Ubuntu member. This grants no special powers/privileges, and is designed to encourage Beginners Team members to become Ubuntu members. I do not think that we should be encouraging people to become Ubuntu members in order to be listed as a Jedi Fellow.00:28
bodhi_zazenwhich although important, means00:28
bodhi_zazenagenda items first00:28
bodhi_zazenthen new members00:28
cprofittI see no reason to get rid of the Jedi Fellows...00:28
bodhi_zazenand comments from FG00:28
cprofittthere is no reason to not recognize them00:28
Ash_Rbodhi_zazen,  comments on what sorry :)00:28
nhandlerNo other Ubuntu *team* recognizes Ubuntu members. Only *areas* of the community (Forums, IRC, LP, etc) recognize them00:28
bodhi_zazenI am neutral tending to want to encourage Ubuntu Membership00:28
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: I think we should encourage Ubuntu Membership, but not with a title00:29
bodhi_zazenFG leads should at least give us an update or things they need from the team00:29
sdennieI think a lot of people use the BT as an easy to access stepping stone into the Ubuntu community.  Knowing the people that have been recognized as Ubuntu members seems important to me.00:29
cprofittit was not meant to encourage people to become a member for 'recognition' but to cast it in a positive light00:29
Saj0577I think it may influence people to become members who otherwise would not seek it.00:29
cprofittnhandler, we are not other teams00:29
Ash_Roh right.  in that case i have something to add if time allows bodhi_zazen00:29
cprofittBT is the team that helps guide users in to the rest of the Ubuntu Community Cosmos00:29
sdenniecprofitt: I agree00:30
bodhi_zazenOK Ash_R :)00:30
drs305I don't care what they are called but feel there should be an easy way to identify BT Ubuntu members00:30
bodhi_zazenwait ... Ash_R00:30
nhandlerYou can get that info by 1) Looking at the group on the forums 2) Looking at our cloaks 3) The +members page on LP00:30
cprofittif nothing else having such recognition serves to make new people aware that such a recognition exists from the Ubuntu community00:30
cprofittnhandler, Yes, but as a team we are the gateway to that information00:31
cprofittwe server the purpose making people aware of that00:31
sdennieAgain I agree with cprofitt00:31
bodhi_zazenI think recognition is important as I do think this team helps people move from forums -> Greater Ubuntu Community00:31
nhandlercprofitt: So we can link them to those locations instead of reproducing the list ourselves00:31
bodhi_zazenand most team members feel it helps :)00:31
cprofittif people can only see that in the traditional ways then we do not need to 'guide' them00:31
cprofittI disagree nhandler00:31
nhandlerIf we feel the need to have a list, I would like to propose using the LP api to generate it00:31
cprofittjust because there are other ways does not mean we should not recognize them and provide another way00:32
drs305None of those are well known or comprehensive, nor directly connected to the team.00:32
cprofittwhat 'problems' do you have with the recognition00:32
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
nhandlercprofitt: The wiki page requires us to manually update it, and it has frequently been out-dated00:32
cprofittnhandler, that is true of many of the wiki pages00:32
cprofittit is easy enough to have people who become members update it themselves00:32
cprofittif they want to be listed00:33
bodhi_zazen+1 cprofitt00:33
bodhi_zazenit is not "our" responsibility to keep that info up to date00:33
drs305Once a member, always a member unless they leave the team. The list would have to be updated once. Let the members list themselves.00:33
drs305* What cprofitt said!00:33
Saj0577drs305 only lasts 2 years then needs renewing i believe.00:33
bodhi_zazenand when people recieve recognition they are usually quite willing to add in their names ;)00:33
cprofitt+1 bodhi_zazen00:33
drs305ty Saj057700:34
bodhi_zazenare we ready to vote ?00:34
cprofittSaj0577, true00:34
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: Willing isn't the issue. Many people don't know the list exists and needs updating00:34
cprofittI am bodhi_zazen00:34
cprofittnhandler, then educate them about the list -- do not get rid of it because it requires a bit of work00:34
nhandlerThis is why I suggested using the LP API to generate it00:34
bodhi_zazenany additional comments prior to vote ?00:34
Ash_Ri am ready to vote.00:34
nhandlerIt would always be up-to-date00:34
cprofittI think there are far more positives to it than negatives00:35
* Saj0577 has a point for AOB00:35
bodhi_zazen[Vote]Get rid of Jedi Fellows00:35
MootBotPlease vote on: Get rid of Jedi Fellows.00:35
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot00:35
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting00:35
cprofittand the work and effort is worth it00:35
MootBot-1 received from cprofitt. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -100:35
MootBotAbstention received from Joeb454. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -100:35
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MootBotAbstention received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 5 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -500:35
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MootBot+1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 7 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -600:35
bodhi_zazenAny additional votes ?00:35
MootBotFinal result is 1 for, 7 against. 3 abstained. Total: -600:36
bodhi_zazen[AGREED] Keep Jedi Fellows00:36
MootBotAGREED received:  Keep Jedi Fellows00:36
bodhi_zazendo we want to talk charter ?00:37
bodhi_zazenor hear from FG and new members ?00:37
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: I think a status update of the charter would be nice00:37
bodhi_zazencharter may be short or long00:37
nhandlerJust a status update (no discussion)00:37
Ash_Ri think new members00:37
bodhi_zazen+1 nhandler00:37
cprofittnew members then status updates00:37
bodhi_zazenany objections 9as it was not on the agenda)00:37
cprofittcharter good too...00:38
swoody+1 charter00:38
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: It was an action from the last meeting00:38
MootBotNew Topic: Charter00:38
bodhi_zazennhandler: well it really needs to be on the agenda :)00:38
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: We didn't have our meeting to discuss it until yesterday ;)00:38
nhandlerWould another leader like to summarize?00:39
cprofittfeel free nhandler00:39
bodhi_zazenI know, but if we or you were even thinking of discussing it, it really should have been added, and canceled if needed (IMO) for future meetings00:39
Joeb454nhandler: go ahead :)00:39
nhandlerWe started puting some ideas on the wiki for a charter: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Council/Charter00:40
nhandlerAs a note, that is simply a draft. We will be cleaning it up and reorganizing it soon00:40
bodhi_zazennhandler: just so we know, who is "we" ?00:40
nhandlerWe in this case is the BT Council00:40
bodhi_zazenjust curious as to who fees we need to change is all00:40
nhandlerFor those of you who have suggestions/comments about the charter, please feel free to contact the council either on IRC or via email (to the list)00:41
bodhi_zazenFor others, in the past this has been here :00:42
MootBotLINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Council/00:42
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: That page is relatively new and just a copy/paste from the Structure page00:42
bodhi_zazenwell, yes is new, but the content is not new00:43
bodhi_zazenit is not as if we are just starting to discuss the role of the council00:43
bodhi_zazenthe first link does not have any history behind it , and people outside the discussion can not follow without the page I linked00:44
sdennieI'm not sure if we should dwell on this much tonight if there is more business to attend to00:44
nhandlerI am fine with moving on sdennie00:44
bodhi_zazenI think the page I linked is sufficient, but am open to suggestions if anything needs to be added or changed00:44
bodhi_zazenI would like to have some idea of where we are going with this, at least a general trend00:45
bodhi_zazenor is the page I linked sufficient ?00:45
bodhi_zazennhandler: or anyone else have any suggestions ?00:46
nhandlerbodhi_zazen: We (BT Council) will be talking more with paultag and other users who expressed strong opinions on the mailing list thread00:46
Ash_Rcan this be put on the next agenda as it would give members who are not present to think on it00:46
nhandlerAsh_R: Yes. Hopefully, we will have a charter to vote on for that meeting00:46
Ash_Rwe seem to have less that 12 voters present00:46
nhandlerNew members now?00:46
bodhi_zazenI am ok with discussing the charter later00:46
cprofittwe will likely have to have some rules -- written in the charter about how much of the team will be required to accept it...00:47
bodhi_zazen[TOPIC]New members00:47
MootBotNew Topic: New members00:47
cprofittand what will be required to change it... etc00:47
bodhi_zazencprofitt: I think as general as possible :)00:47
cprofittbodhi_zazen, not sure those things can be general...00:48
bodhi_zazenpleia2: I think is up for membership00:48
* pleia2 waves00:48
cprofittwe can use well tested ones00:48
bodhi_zazenI know cprofitt00:48
nhandlerpleia2: Care to introduce yourself?00:48
cprofittyes... I present pleia2 for membership00:48
cprofitther wiki page is here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/lyz00:48
cprofittshe has worked with the Education FG is getting the Ubuntu Community Learning Project off the ground00:49
pleia2Sure, I'm Elizabeth Krumbach, have been working with Ubuntu for a few years, became a member about 2 years ago, started working with cprofitt and all on the education FG related to Classroom which led into the new Learning project00:49
cprofittand has been very helpful with several other teams00:49
pleia2and I hang out in the #ubuntu-beginners team and help out as needed, would like to start doing soem Classroom classes under the BT label00:50
nhandlerAny questions for pleia2 ? Or can we vote?00:50
bodhi_zazenI support pleia2 in membership :)00:50
pleia2thanks :)00:50
bodhi_zazen[VOTE] pleia2 for membersihp00:50
MootBotPlease vote on:  pleia2 for membersihp.00:50
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot00:50
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting00:50
MootBot+1 received from sdennie. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 100:50
MootBot+1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 200:50
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w4ettpleia2 has been indispensable in assisting in the reformation of the tennessee loco team00:50
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bodhi_zazenAny additional votes ?00:51
MootBotFinal result is 10 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 1000:51
pleia2thanks everyone :)00:51
bodhi_zazenw00t :)00:52
Ash_Rcongratulations pleia200:52
nhandlerCongrats pleia2 ! What is your LP name?00:52
pleia2nhandler: lyz00:52
Ash_Ryou earned it00:52
Joeb454fwiw, if I had been paying attention I would've +1'd pleia2 :)00:52
bodhi_zazenwe have 8 minutes to discuss FG :)00:52
nhandlerpleia2: You have been added to the BT LP team00:52
pleia2nhandler: thanks \o/00:52
Ash_Rshall i go as i have minor thing to announce?00:52
nhandlerI have to leave. I will read the logs later00:53
Joeb454later nhandler00:53
bodhi_zazengo Ash_R00:53
Saj0577later nhandler00:53
bodhi_zazenthanks nhandler00:53
Joeb454I have something after as well :)00:54
Ash_RThe young new user focus group had its first meeting.  Here is the wiki page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/YNU/Meetings/06-28-200900:54
Ash_Rthats about it really ;)00:54
bodhi_zazenThank , I think the YUN FG will be very helpful00:54
bodhi_zazenJoeb454: go :)00:54
sdennieExcellent Ash_R00:54
Joeb454basically, after a meeting amongst the council, we decided to change some settings in the council channel00:55
Ash_Rthough we had to put together a quick channel as it was late notice (10ish minutes) laugh out lud00:55
Joeb454some of you may already be aware, but the channel is now +mz00:55
Saj0577+mz meaning?00:55
Joeb454basically this means that nobody will be able to speak without voice, however channel operators (i.e. the council) will be able to hear you00:55
sdennieMilitarized Zone00:55
bodhi_zazen+mz == stfu :)00:56
Joeb454so if you have a query to raise with the council, they can voice you and you will be heard by all00:56
Joeb454I'm sure if it turns out to not work as we expect, we can change it back :)00:56
Joeb454that's all I think :)00:56
sdennieI have something to add to that00:56
cprofittThe Educations FG team is still involved in the Ubuntu Community Learning Project. With the guidance that bodhi_zazen is giving it progress is being made in adopting a structure. Legal questions are still being discussed as to the license to use for courses.00:56
bodhi_zazencprofitt: is too kind00:57
bodhi_zazencprofitt: Vantrax pleia2 and doctormo deserve more credit then I do00:57
Joeb454cprofitt: hopefully they'll get sorted soon00:57
Joeb454and sdennie quick, add to what I said before we forget! :)00:57
cprofittit is not an easy topic...00:57
sdennieWe did this because the council channel was recently a very unfriendly place to be for a few incidents.  There was a lot of name calling and otherwise unfriendliness so, we decided to make it more "sanitary".00:57
cprofittand can be very contentious, but I feel the people involved while strong of opinion are stronger of desire to see the project successful00:58
bodhi_zazenjuat FYI I am kind of -1 on the whole +mz thing, although I am vulnerable to peer pressure00:58
bodhi_zazenI like the channel to be open00:58
bodhi_zazenso if there are problems or concerns PLEASE bring them forward00:59
* bodhi_zazen hides00:59
bodhi_zazenother issues ?00:59
Joeb454bodhi_zazen: I agree there, but we'll see how it pans out :) Like I said, I'm happy to change it if needs be00:59
sdenniebodhi_zazen: I've turned -1 on the issue because for some reason pidgin doesn't do it right...  ;)00:59
bodhi_zazenLOL sdennie00:59
swoodyI somewhat agree bodhi_zazen I like open channels, but when something 'official' starts in the channel, I think it should go to +mz by default00:59
bodhi_zazenjust helping nhandler feel better , so he is not the only one swamped with -101:00
sdennieWell, if we find it doesn't work, it's easy enough to reverse the change01:00
sdennieOr if people don't like it01:01
MootBotMeeting finished at 19:01.01:01
bodhi_zazenthank you everyone01:01
Saj057719:01 i wish.01:01
Ash_Rcan we not give it a go and see how we get on with it01:01
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lukjad007Dubie, Dubie, Dooo...11:08
leoquantdo dun dun do...11:08
leoquantdu du duuuuu11:08
lukjad007Sing siiiiiiing.11:08
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* liw waves16:01
MootBotMeeting started at 10:01. The chair is robbiew.16:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:01
al-maisanhello there!16:01
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robbiewcjwatson is on his way...having freenode irc issues16:02
robbiewagenda located here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0701#Agenda16:04
robbiew[TOPIC] 8.04.316:04
MootBotNew Topic:  8.04.316:04
robbiewhey cjwatson_16:04
robbiewjust started16:04
cjwatson_ah, there it goes, finaly16:04
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robbiewslangasek: is everything "okay" with 8.04.3?16:05
robbiewanything you need from folks?...or me?16:05
slangasekrobbiew: I've had conversations with Zaid and Etienne last week about some bugs that haven't gotten fixed yet for 8.04.3, but that they consider critical to have: #236640, #20707216:06
* mvo adds a late hi16:07
* robbiew looks at bug 236640 and bug 20707216:08
ubottuLaunchpad bug 236640 in open-iscsi "iSCSI install fails under hardy" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/23664016:08
ubottuLaunchpad bug 207072 in nautilus "nautilus does not display samba shares for machines inside an ADS network." [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20707216:08
slangasekI've been working on trying to squeeze the first in (iSCSI), but it's pulling teeth to get things tested - need to chase up with the server team16:08
slangasekthe other I need to talk to Rick about today, for the desktop team16:09
slangasekdepending on how these fixes play out, I think we need to consider pushing the point release back further to accomodate them16:09
slangasek(another week, no more)16:10
robbiewi suppose a week delay is not the end of the world16:10
cjwatsonthat pushes it into debconf, iirc?16:11
robbiewhmm...right...I keep forgetting we delayed it already16:11
* robbiew needs to update his google calendar16:12
slangasekcjwatson: Jul 16 - DebCamp, but not DebConf16:12
robbiewcjwatson: what is the current planned date for 8.04.3?16:12
slangasekcurrently planned for 9 Jul16:13
cjwatsonso early debcamp then16:13
cjwatsonmy travel plans for debcamp got a bit torpedoed by various things, so I'm not actually going to make it there until the 21st16:13
cjwatsonmeaning that I'd have no problem being available around the 16th16:14
robbiewslangasek: I'll add this to the weekly manager's meeting agenda as well16:15
robbiewto make sure Rick and Rick know16:15
slangasekrobbiew: alright - though I won't be waiting for that before talking to them16:15
slangasekthe short-term problem is to get the bugs fixed, both of which have been quite intransigent.  One defies backporting, the other still isn't actually fixed in karmic.16:16
robbiewso there's also the possibility that we go out next week...if a "fix" for neither looks promising16:17
robbiewgetting a fix in time, that is16:18
slangasekI'm given to believe that's a very bad possibility. :)16:18
robbiewslangasek: anything else around 8.04.3?16:19
slangaseknot at present; testing feedback of the candidate ISOs seems to be positive16:19
robbiewok, tnaks16:19
robbiewthanks :/16:20
robbiew[TOPIC] Karmic Status16:20
MootBotNew Topic:  Karmic Status16:20
MootBotLINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic16:20
robbiewI've updated the "grand pooba" wiki page with milestones16:20
robbiewat least the ones I have...i think I still need to add the multiarch one16:21
slangasekcjwatson: you're listed as reviewer of the multiarch spec, and it's still marked for 'review' - do you have any feedback on that so far?16:22
cjwatsonI think I got most of my review in at UDS - I'll give it another once-over and process the blueprint16:23
slangasek(there are a couple of points that discussion has reopened on in Debian, but these are relatively small; I'm happy to notify you as those get resolved, if you like)16:23
robbiewI'll start the much-anticipated color coding next week16:25
robbiew[TOPIC] Doko topic: handling of component mismatches16:26
MootBotNew Topic:  Doko topic: handling of component mismatches16:26
robbiewdoko, around?16:26
robbiewthe stage is yours16:26
dokojust pointing out that component mismaches aren't handled currently16:27
dokolike the example I did give. most of them are introduced by syncs from debian, so they are less seen.16:27
cjwatsonI don't think it's fair to go from "there are some component mismatches that I've noticed not being dealt with" to "component mismatches aren't being handled [at all]".16:27
slangasekfwiw, what you see there is about a 1.5 weeks of drift I guess16:28
slangasekhmm, make that 2.5week16:28
cjwatsonin a lot of cases, we're somewhat blocked on MIR reviews, though, which I see you have later among your topics16:29
slangasekperhaps we should emphasize more to the archive admins that this should get attention on archive days?16:29
dokoI didn't say "at all". I was just observing16:29
cjwatsonyou said they weren't being handled16:29
dokook, ok ...16:29
cjwatsonin the cases you give, they are unfortunately blocked on the MIR team as far as I can see ...16:30
cjwatson(bug 382692, bug 391375)16:30
ubottuLaunchpad bug 382692 in jinja2 "Move python-jinja2 to main" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/38269216:30
cjwatsonand I do agree that's a problem16:30
ubottuLaunchpad bug 391375 in llvm "MIR for llvm" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/39137516:30
cjwatsonso, a while back we added a bunch of new members to the MIR team in an attempt to unbottleneck that16:32
cjwatsondoko excepted, are those people not pulling their weight?16:32
cjwatsonapart from doko, none of them are on this team16:32
dokoI'll talk to the MIR team, I tried myself to stay away from this for the karmic cycle16:33
dokocjwatson: so maybe somebody else from foundations would make sense in the MIR team?16:33
cjwatsonperhaps, but TBH I feel that the existing people should be able to keep up16:33
cjwatsonmaybe they need to establish some kind of rota so that it isn't always distracting them16:34
cjwatsonbut so that they still get stuff done16:34
dokolet's try that. will followup next week16:35
robbiewok...did that also cover your MIR topic?16:35
robbiewand the second? handling of the new queue (selfish example: python3.1)16:36
cjwatsonif the people on that team feel they need to be replaced, we can do that; if they genuinely feel they're pulling their weight but just aren't managing to keep up, then that would suggest adding more people16:36
dokoand somebody did work on NEW while we were talking ;)16:36
cjwatsonI might have seen the agenda item ;-)16:36
cjwatsonNEW seems to be backing up a bit, although not *too* badly16:36
cjwatsonthe oldest thing there is an outlier source package at 12 days; everything else is a week or newer16:37
cjwatson67 items in all right now (binaries tend to show up as several items, one per architecture)16:37
cjwatsonso not as fast as it might be, but not cause for immediate alarm I think - did you try contacting archive admins on their archive days first?16:38
james_wI could do a "half-day" on Monday before slangasek gets up to help clear the weekend backlog. Steve, what do you think?16:38
dokowould it make sense (for stuff like MIR, NEW) to mention processing these after some milestones explicitely?16:38
cjwatsonI don't have an archive day right now; maybe I should do that half-day16:39
slangasekoh, that would definitely make a difference16:39
cjwatsonoh, nor does James :)16:39
cjwatsonhow about I do some on Wednesday to supplement Dustin, since (a) he's on a different timezone (b) he's listed as just syncs and bug processing?16:39
slangasekI was thinking that I should swap days with Riddell or StevenK so that someone farther east can get a jump on the week, but this would work as well16:40
* kirkland would much appreciate that, as wednesdays have been particularly bad for him :-(16:40
* james_w adds himself to the wiki page16:41
* robbiew sheds a tear over seeing such great teamwork16:42
robbiewokay....moving on :P16:42
robbiew[TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue16:42
MootBotNew Topic:  Sponsorship Queue16:42
robbiewI see Keybuk is meeting his goal of zero this week...heh16:43
KeybukI'm quite happy to do 1/5th less work a week if you like <g>16:43
robbiewhe and I are tied :/16:43
robbiewsponsorship queue processing is "work"....but I know what you mean16:43
robbiewI'd generally like to see folks doing some sponsorship work, but also understand that we have features to deliver and bugs to fix....it's finding the balance between the two that's tricky16:45
slangasekI'm conscious of my own delinquence over the past couple of weeks, and will play catch-up soon16:46
robbiewno worries...I'm not worried about it....yet ;)16:47
robbiew[TOPIC] Good News16:47
MootBotNew Topic:  Good News16:47
robbiewUS holiday this Friday...whoohoo!16:47
robbiewwhoa...a lot of folks just left16:47
Keybukrobbiew: my problem is that I'm in the group of people who can't just "go and do something else for 20 minutes"16:48
robbiewKeybuk: ack16:48
Keybuka 20 minute interruption can lose me an entire day of work16:48
Keybukbecause I'll never get back into what I was doing16:48
Keybukthis is basically the reason I switch all the notifications for things like IRC and e-mail off ;)16:48
robbiewany Good News?16:49
liwthe world didn't end yet16:49
cjwatsonmm, I find sponsorship works better for me at the start or end of the day16:49
cjwatsonas a get-brain-moving or wind-down activity16:50
cjwatsonarchive admin's sort of similar for me16:50
mvoyeah, for me too (wind-down usually)16:50
robbiew[TOPIC] AOB16:51
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB16:51
robbiewslangasek: you're out tomorrow and Friday, right?16:51
robbiewdo we need coverage for the release meeting?16:51
slangasekcjwatson agreed to cover; I'll be sending him notes today on what I use to pull together the agenda16:51
Keybukcjwatson: the end of my day is usually suddenly stoping coding at the words "dinner's ready!"16:51
cjwatsonslangasek: which means I know what I'm doing tomorrow :)16:52
robbiewokay...that's all I got16:52
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:52.16:52
robbiew8 minutes to spare!16:52
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henohello everyone17:58
cr3hidy ho17:59
henolots of people out today for various reasons18:00
henobut let's start18:01
MootBotMeeting started at 12:01. The chair is heno.18:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]18:01
henoagenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings18:01
heno[TOPIC] UbuntuBugDay highlights18:01
MootBotNew Topic:  UbuntuBugDay highlights18:01
henocan anyone comment on this? pedro is travelling18:02
henohey ara18:02
henoogasawara: perhaps you want to give an update on kernel bug days?18:03
ogasawaraheno: they're still going great, with good participation from each of the kernel devs18:04
ogasawaraheno: our focus now is to get more community participation18:04
henoogasawara: are they themed?18:04
henoand when is the next one?18:04
ogasawaraheno: yes, they'll target for ex bugs with patches attached.18:04
ogasawaraheno: the next one is Tues July 7 - likely to target wifi bugs18:04
henook, great18:05
heno[TOPIC] SRU Verifications -- sbeattie18:05
MootBotNew Topic:  SRU Verifications -- sbeattie18:05
sbeattieThanks to exe, Shahar Or, Evan Broder, Mika Pflüger, Magnus Hjorth, and Neil Hoggarth fortesting various SRU fixes this week.18:05
sbeattie8.04.3 SRU work continues, the list is getting smaller, but we could still use somehelp on the hardware specific ones.18:06
henomy calendar says 8.04.3 is tomorrow, has that changed?18:06
sbeattiealso re: 8.04.3, I expect iso testing to formally begin soon given we expect to release on july 9th18:07
sbeattieheno: july 9th based on the hardy schedule in the wiki, I thought18:07
henothat's probably true then. the calendar entry says TBC18:08
henosbeattie: many hw-specific issues outstanding?18:08
sbeattie(I've been informally testing the iso images to verify some of the installer fixes that have landed)18:08
sbeattieYeah, hw-specific issues are pretty much unchanged.18:09
henohow many images are we expecting?18:09
sbeattiejust the ubuntu ones.18:09
henojust server or desktops too?18:10
sbeattiedesktops as well, I believe..18:10
sbeattie(they've been respinning)18:10
henostill, not too bad18:10
henook, thanks sbeattie18:10
heno[TOPIC] Ubuntu Developer Week -- ogasawara18:11
MootBotNew Topic:  Ubuntu Developer Week -- ogasawara18:11
ogasawarajust a sec, getting the link18:11
ogasawaraAfter chatting with the community team I just want to mention that UDW is coming up18:12
ogasawaraIf anyone is interested in leading a session, please sign up!18:12
henoseems we are already well-represented18:13
henocr3, sbeattie: anything you feel you'd like to present?18:14
henocr3: metrics attachments for fun and profit perhaps?18:15
cr3heno: sure, checkbox!18:15
cr3heno: yep, I'll thing of a topic relating to checkbox18:15
henook, great18:15
artirogasawara: what about a pyclutter tutorial ;)?18:16
artirI can do it18:16
artirno, I can't18:17
artir:(, I'm without a PC till 5 of september18:17
ogasawaraartir:  heh, oops18:17
henohow to sign up? contact jcastro?18:17
ogasawaraartir: maybe next time18:17
artirbut I can give the tutorial and all the stuff to other guy18:17
ogasawaraheno: I'd say probably best to run your idea by jcastro or dholbach first before taking a slot18:17
artirthis is quite important since there aren't any good pyclutter tutorials out there18:17
artirand clutter is very cool18:18
henoartir: perhaps work on the docs this time and present next time?18:18
henonext topic ...18:19
artirGiving the pyclutter talk is not so complex18:19
heno[TOPIC] Presenting http://mago.ubuntu.com/18:19
MootBotNew Topic:  Presenting http://mago.ubuntu.com/18:19
araYes, we have a brand new site for the Mago project18:20
henolet's give some applause to ara for heading up the Mago project and setting up the site!18:20
henoit will be officially presented next Wednesday at the desktop summit18:21
ogasawaraara: nice work!18:21
sbeattieyay ara! nice work!18:21
* fader applauds.18:21
henoa who wiki for us to fill with useful testing automation docs :)18:22
henoany other meeting topics?18:22
artirmago means wizard/magician in spanish :P18:22
araartir: ;-)18:23
henobecause it makes things magically appear on your desktop :)18:23
cr3heno: good, I'd be worried if it magically made things disappear :)18:24
henoit can do that too18:24
cr3"now you see it, rm -fr /, now you don't"18:24
faderWhat's Spanish for "evil wizard"?18:24
* heno copies that command to test18:24
artirMago Malvado18:25
artiror Mago Maligno18:25
artiralias evil_wizard="rm -rf"18:25
henook, I think were done18:25
MootBotMeeting finished at 12:25.18:25
henothanks all!18:25
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