[00:00] 'lo everyone [00:00] Hey bodhi_zazen [00:00] who is here for the meeting ? [00:00] o/ [00:00] o/ [00:00] o/ [00:00] o/ [00:00] o/ [00:01] .startmeeting [00:01] #startmeeting [00:01] Meeting started at 18:01. The chair is bodhi_zazen. [00:01] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [00:01] Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings [00:01] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings [00:01] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings [00:01] yipee [00:02] you want to do agenda items first ? [00:02] Sure bodhi_zazen, but can we move the first item until the end of the agenda? It will require a little discussion [00:03] oops ... [00:03] sure [00:03] [TOPIC] Transition from ## to # [00:03] New Topic: Transition from ## to # [00:03] Currently, we have our FG channels using the naming scheme ##beginners-foo [00:03] you are up nhandler [00:04] As they are part of our team, they should really use #ubuntu-beginners-foo [00:04] +1 [00:04] +1 nhandler [00:04] I have talked with Pricey, and there is no Freenode/Ubuntu IRC policy prohibiting this [00:04] just for a little history, if I recall long ago we did just this and were asked to move to ## [00:04] so I do not mind moving back [00:04] It will make it clear to other users that the FG channels are in the Ubuntu namespace, and all Ubuntu rules apply in there [00:05] we will have to update the wiki - AGAIN - lol [00:05] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/MovingChannels [00:05] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/MovingChannels [00:05] At least rocket won't find out until after the holiday. [00:05] I will move -council [00:05] That wiki page explains how to move the channels [00:05] I would like to ask all FG leaders to move their own channel (if the vote passes) [00:05] I think it's probably for the best, as you say, makes it clear what the channels are [00:05] do you want to vote on this ? [00:06] I think we should bodhi_zazen [00:06] that said - I think the channel names could become very long [00:06] LOL nhandler [00:06] [VOTE] move to # [00:06] Please vote on: move to #. [00:06] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [00:06] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [00:06] +1 [00:06] +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [00:06] +1 [00:06] +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [00:06] +1 [00:06] 0 [00:06] +1 received from drs305. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [00:06] +1 [00:06] +1 received from swoody. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [00:06] +1 [00:06] +1 received from Ash_R. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5 [00:06] +1 [00:06] +1 received from Joeb454. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6 [00:06] +1 [00:06] +1 received from w4ett. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7 [00:07] any mor evotes ? [00:07] Huh. Apparently 0 doesn't mean abstained [00:07] sdennie: +0 [00:07] +0 [00:07] Abstention received from sdennie. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7 [00:07] [ENDVOTE] [00:07] Final result is 7 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 7 [00:07] [AGREED]Move to # [00:07] AGREED received: Move to # [00:07] :) [00:08] bodhi_zazen: So you will move -council, and FG leads will move their own channels, correct? [00:08] [TOPIC] Council members and Focus Group Leaders should sign Leadership Code of Conduct [00:08] New Topic: Council members and Focus Group Leaders should sign Leadership Code of Conduct [00:08] yes nhandler [00:08] [LINK] http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct [00:08] LINK received: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct [00:08] there's a leadership CoC? lol [00:08] The Leadership Code of Conduct holds leaders in the Ubuntu community to a higher standard than the normal Code of Conduct. As Council members and Focus Group leaders are leaders on an official Ubuntu team, I feel that it is important that all members sign the Leadership Code of Conduct in addition to the standard Code of Conduct (which they already should have signed). As Launchpad currently does not offer a place to upload signed copies [00:08] * Joeb454 takes a few mins to read the link [00:09] any commnets on that ? [00:09] I already signed so pfft :) [00:09] dont start vote reading time please :D [00:09] well I think it's fair, though it probably means I need another key, and I'll have to be reminded how to sign things =/ [00:09] i think its a good idea [00:09] how would you have them sign it nhandler [00:10] bodhi_zazen: The same way as the normal CoC is signed (GPG Clearsign). We would then email it to the -council mailing list, and possibly CC the full team list (if desired) [00:10] LP does the CoC, does it do the Leadership CoC as well ? [00:10] No [00:10] That is why I proposed emailing it to the list [00:10] Well, it it is not tracked in LP, I do not want to track it either :) [00:11] I think a signed CoC on LP and awareness of the Leadersip CoC is sufficient [00:11] can we not push for it to be tracked through launchpad? [00:11] I tend to agree with bodhi_zazen on this. If it's a haphazard method of tracking, it doesn't mean much. [00:11] bodhi_zazen: +1 [00:12] nhandler: do any other team require a signed leadership CoC ? [00:13] no, but there is a LP bug about it [00:13] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/392976 [00:13] Ubuntu bug 392976 in ubuntu-community "Leadership CoC not given to LoCo Leads" [Undecided,New] [00:13] mentions that it probably should be :) [00:13] Maybe we should bring the subject up again if/when the bug is fixed [00:14] +1 sdennie [00:14] +1 sdennie [00:14] and perhaps we should nudge the bug trackers :) [00:14] it's a brand new bug [00:14] only 3 days old [00:14] any other comments b4 we vote ? [00:15] I think it is a good idea so why not set the example in saying we should sign it? [00:15] Just because it is not tracked on LP is no reason not to hold our team leaders to it [00:15] +1 nhandler [00:15] agreed. [00:15] i agree also [00:15] I'm sort of mid-field on this one [00:15] Saj0577: Do you plan to get my public key and verify that the stuff at the bottom of my signature is indeed a signature and not just random characters? [00:15] I think it would be a great show if we take the initiative and start a push ourselves [00:16] holding team leaders to it and gpg signing it are separate though [00:16] I agree that team leaders should be aware of it, and have read it (I've just finished reading) - but there's no way to see if they have done that [00:16] gpg signing means we need a way to track [00:16] bodhi_zazen: Right. Holding team leaders to it is fine in my opinion [00:16] bodhi_zazen: If they have not signed it, they never really agreed to follow it [00:16] i have been aware of it for a while. never seen it mentioned anywhere else though [00:16] bodhi_zazen: If we have a signed copy of it on the ML, we can track it ;) [00:16] it does not really matter if they agree nhandler , we will hold them to it anyways, lol [00:17] then that is holding them to something they did not agree to bodhi_zazen [00:17] indeed Ash_R [00:17] Ash_R but if they got an objection too it do we really want them as a team leader? [00:18] The Leadership CoC is more of a formality. I doubt that any of our current leaders will be violating it (even if unsigned) [00:18] I do not think it is unreasonable to hold "leaders" to a higher standard [00:18] and that is the other issue nhandler [00:18] Saj0577, having seen the terms they would have had opportunity to back out [00:18] is there even a way to sign it nhandler ? [00:18] cprofitt: GPG clearsign [00:18] I think we should implement it with all new team leads. Sort of like a EULA where they have to accept to abide by the code to become a lead in the first place. [00:18] I really don't see this as an issue. The Leadership CoC is common sense stuff. I'd be happy to sign it if there were an official way to track it. There isn't so, I'm not sure what good signing it will do. [00:18] people who violate the principles generally are not in leadership positions [00:19] On the CoC page: "In addition to this Code of Conduct, we hold our community leaders (such as IRC operators, Forums staff, team leaders and LoCo coordinators) to an even higher standard which is documented in the Leadership Code of Conduct." [00:19] so in theory, leaders *are* bound by it already [00:19] nhandler, but is there a 'process' as there is for the CoC? [00:19] +1 pleia2 [00:19] pleia2: it does? damn...I'm in 3 of those categories ;) [00:19] cprofitt: The 'process' for the normal CoC is mainly to get it to show up on LP. All we would do is GPG clearsign it and email it to the mailing list (which is publicly accessible) [00:20] but you do have a good point there [00:20] I think people in leadership are bound by the principles and we should ask them to file a signed CoC on LP [00:20] nhandler: But, as I said, is anyone going to go to the trouble to see if it's actually signed or just has a bunch of random characters at the bottom? [00:20] in addition when LP is able to track a Leadership CoC , add it in [00:20] nhandler, who would record that it had been signed? When it is modified who would send out a notice to re-sign it? If I change my gpg would I have to resign it? [00:20] I agree with bodhi_zazen [00:20] sdennie: I would have no issue verifying all of the signatures [00:21] a signed CoC essentially includes the leadership clauses, IMO [00:21] bodhi_zazen, +1 [00:21] unless there is a way to track it... I think it is likely more 'trouble' than it is worth [00:21] I say shelve the issue or vote on it. We are just talking in circles. [00:21] certainly if a leader violates it they should be questioned by the remaining leaders [00:21] Most of that 'tracking' stuff you were asking about cprofitt isn't even available for the normal CoC [00:21] The Leadership CoC should also remain relatively stable [00:22] nhandler, then I see no value in signatures... [00:22] [Vote] Leaders gpg sign Leadership CoC [00:22] Please vote on: Leaders gpg sign Leadership CoC. [00:22] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [00:22] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [00:22] -1 [00:22] leaders by default agree to it [00:22] -1 received from sdennie. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1 [00:22] -1 [00:22] -1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2 [00:22] -1 [00:22] -1 received from cprofitt. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3 [00:22] +0 [00:22] Abstention received from drs305. 0 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -3 [00:22] -1 [00:22] -1 received from Saj0577. 0 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -4 [00:22] +0 [00:22] -1 [00:22] Abstention received from duanedesign. 0 for, 4 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -4 [00:22] -1 received from swoody. 0 for, 5 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -5 [00:22] +0 [00:22] -1 [00:22] Abstention received from w4ett. 0 for, 5 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -5 [00:22] -1 received from Ash_R. 0 for, 6 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -6 [00:22] +1 [00:22] +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 6 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -5 [00:22] +0 [00:22] Abstention received from Joeb454. 1 for, 6 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now -5 [00:23] any other votes [00:23] three times for Robert's Rules bodhi_zazen [00:23] we seem to be short on numbers. [00:24] pain, but the process [00:24] [ENDVOTE] [00:24] Final result is 1 for, 6 against. 4 abstained. Total: -5 [00:24] [VOTE]Bring issue up when we can track the document on LP [00:24] Please vote on: Bring issue up when we can track the document on LP. [00:24] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [00:24] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [00:24] +1 [00:24] +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [00:24] +1 [00:24] +1 received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [00:24] +1 [00:24] +1 received from Ash_R. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [00:24] +1 [00:24] +1 received from swoody. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [00:24] +1 [00:24] +1 received from sdennie. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5 [00:24] +1 [00:25] +1 received from w4ett. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6 [00:25] +1 [00:25] +0 [00:25] +1 received from Saj0577. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7 [00:25] Abstention received from cprofitt. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7 [00:25] +0 [00:25] Abstention received from Joeb454. 7 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 7 [00:25] +0 [00:25] Abstention received from duanedesign. 7 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 7 [00:25] +1 [00:25] +1 received from drs305. 8 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 8 [00:25] any mor evotes ? [00:25] [ENDVOTE] [00:25] Final result is 8 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 8 [00:26] [ACTION]Bring the issue of Leaders signing Leadership CoC when we can track it on LP [00:26] ACTION received: Bring the issue of Leaders signing Leadership CoC when we can track it on LP [00:26] [TOPIC]Get rid of Jedi Fellows [00:26] New Topic: Get rid of Jedi Fellows [00:26] bodhi_zazen: Would you (or another council member) like to give a status update of the charter now? [00:27] REMINDER 30 min left :) [00:27] nhandler: [00:27] nhandler: do you want to table your agenda item ? [00:27] I guess we can do it now (and the status update after) [00:27] Well, I do not see charter on the agenda [00:27] I talked with nhandler about this topic but, I don't think getting rid of the Jedi Fellows is needed [00:28] A Jedi Fellow is a Beginners Team member who is also an Ubuntu member. This grants no special powers/privileges, and is designed to encourage Beginners Team members to become Ubuntu members. I do not think that we should be encouraging people to become Ubuntu members in order to be listed as a Jedi Fellow. [00:28] which although important, means [00:28] agenda items first [00:28] then new members [00:28] I see no reason to get rid of the Jedi Fellows... [00:28] and comments from FG [00:28] there is no reason to not recognize them [00:28] bodhi_zazen, comments on what sorry :) [00:28] No other Ubuntu *team* recognizes Ubuntu members. Only *areas* of the community (Forums, IRC, LP, etc) recognize them [00:28] I am neutral tending to want to encourage Ubuntu Membership [00:29] bodhi_zazen: I think we should encourage Ubuntu Membership, but not with a title [00:29] FG leads should at least give us an update or things they need from the team [00:29] I think a lot of people use the BT as an easy to access stepping stone into the Ubuntu community. Knowing the people that have been recognized as Ubuntu members seems important to me. [00:29] it was not meant to encourage people to become a member for 'recognition' but to cast it in a positive light [00:29] I think it may influence people to become members who otherwise would not seek it. [00:29] nhandler, we are not other teams [00:29] oh right. in that case i have something to add if time allows bodhi_zazen [00:29] BT is the team that helps guide users in to the rest of the Ubuntu Community Cosmos [00:30] cprofitt: I agree [00:30] OK Ash_R :) [00:30] I don't care what they are called but feel there should be an easy way to identify BT Ubuntu members [00:30] wait ... Ash_R [00:30] You can get that info by 1) Looking at the group on the forums 2) Looking at our cloaks 3) The +members page on LP [00:30] if nothing else having such recognition serves to make new people aware that such a recognition exists from the Ubuntu community [00:31] nhandler, Yes, but as a team we are the gateway to that information [00:31] we server the purpose making people aware of that [00:31] Again I agree with cprofitt [00:31] I think recognition is important as I do think this team helps people move from forums -> Greater Ubuntu Community [00:31] cprofitt: So we can link them to those locations instead of reproducing the list ourselves [00:31] and most team members feel it helps :) [00:31] if people can only see that in the traditional ways then we do not need to 'guide' them [00:31] I disagree nhandler [00:31] If we feel the need to have a list, I would like to propose using the LP api to generate it [00:32] just because there are other ways does not mean we should not recognize them and provide another way [00:32] None of those are well known or comprehensive, nor directly connected to the team. [00:32] what 'problems' do you have with the recognition === yofel_ is now known as yofel [00:32] cprofitt: The wiki page requires us to manually update it, and it has frequently been out-dated [00:32] nhandler, that is true of many of the wiki pages [00:32] it is easy enough to have people who become members update it themselves [00:33] if they want to be listed [00:33] +1 cprofitt [00:33] it is not "our" responsibility to keep that info up to date [00:33] Once a member, always a member unless they leave the team. The list would have to be updated once. Let the members list themselves. [00:33] * What cprofitt said! [00:33] drs305 only lasts 2 years then needs renewing i believe. [00:33] and when people recieve recognition they are usually quite willing to add in their names ;) [00:33] +1 bodhi_zazen [00:34] ty Saj0577 [00:34] are we ready to vote ? [00:34] Saj0577, true [00:34] bodhi_zazen: Willing isn't the issue. Many people don't know the list exists and needs updating [00:34] I am bodhi_zazen [00:34] nhandler, then educate them about the list -- do not get rid of it because it requires a bit of work [00:34] This is why I suggested using the LP API to generate it [00:34] any additional comments prior to vote ? [00:34] i am ready to vote. [00:34] It would always be up-to-date [00:35] I think there are far more positives to it than negatives [00:35] * Saj0577 has a point for AOB [00:35] [Vote]Get rid of Jedi Fellows [00:35] Please vote on: Get rid of Jedi Fellows. [00:35] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [00:35] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [00:35] and the work and effort is worth it [00:35] -1 [00:35] -1 received from cprofitt. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1 [00:35] +0 [00:35] -1 [00:35] Abstention received from Joeb454. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1 [00:35] -1 received from swoody. 0 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2 [00:35] -1 [00:35] -1 received from drs305. 0 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -3 [00:35] -1 [00:35] -1 received from duanedesign. 0 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -4 [00:35] -1 [00:35] -1 received from sdennie. 0 for, 5 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -5 [00:35] +0 [00:35] Abstention received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 5 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -5 [00:35] -1 [00:35] -1 received from w4ett. 0 for, 6 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -6 [00:35] +0 [00:35] -1 [00:35] -1 received from Ash_R. 0 for, 7 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -7 [00:35] Abstention received from Saj0577. 0 for, 7 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -7 [00:35] +1 [00:35] +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 7 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -6 [00:35] Any additional votes ? [00:36] [ENDVOTE] [00:36] Final result is 1 for, 7 against. 3 abstained. Total: -6 [00:36] [AGREED] Keep Jedi Fellows [00:36] AGREED received: Keep Jedi Fellows [00:37] do we want to talk charter ? [00:37] or hear from FG and new members ? [00:37] bodhi_zazen: I think a status update of the charter would be nice [00:37] charter may be short or long [00:37] Just a status update (no discussion) [00:37] i think new members [00:37] +1 nhandler [00:37] new members then status updates [00:37] any objections 9as it was not on the agenda) [00:38] charter good too... [00:38] +1 charter [00:38] bodhi_zazen: It was an action from the last meeting [00:38] [TOPIC]Charter [00:38] New Topic: Charter [00:38] nhandler: well it really needs to be on the agenda :) [00:38] bodhi_zazen: We didn't have our meeting to discuss it until yesterday ;) [00:39] Would another leader like to summarize? [00:39] feel free nhandler [00:39] I know, but if we or you were even thinking of discussing it, it really should have been added, and canceled if needed (IMO) for future meetings [00:39] nhandler: go ahead :) [00:40] We started puting some ideas on the wiki for a charter: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Council/Charter [00:40] As a note, that is simply a draft. We will be cleaning it up and reorganizing it soon [00:40] nhandler: just so we know, who is "we" ? [00:40] We in this case is the BT Council [00:40] just curious as to who fees we need to change is all [00:41] TY [00:41] For those of you who have suggestions/comments about the charter, please feel free to contact the council either on IRC or via email (to the list) [00:41] feels [00:42] For others, in the past this has been here : [00:42] [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Council/ [00:42] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Council/ [00:42] bodhi_zazen: That page is relatively new and just a copy/paste from the Structure page [00:43] well, yes is new, but the content is not new [00:43] it is not as if we are just starting to discuss the role of the council [00:44] the first link does not have any history behind it , and people outside the discussion can not follow without the page I linked [00:44] I'm not sure if we should dwell on this much tonight if there is more business to attend to [00:44] I am fine with moving on sdennie [00:44] I think the page I linked is sufficient, but am open to suggestions if anything needs to be added or changed [00:45] I would like to have some idea of where we are going with this, at least a general trend [00:45] or is the page I linked sufficient ? [00:45] sufficient [00:46] nhandler: or anyone else have any suggestions ? [00:46] bodhi_zazen: We (BT Council) will be talking more with paultag and other users who expressed strong opinions on the mailing list thread [00:46] can this be put on the next agenda as it would give members who are not present to think on it [00:46] Ash_R: Yes. Hopefully, we will have a charter to vote on for that meeting [00:46] we seem to have less that 12 voters present [00:46] *than [00:46] New members now? [00:46] I am ok with discussing the charter later [00:47] we will likely have to have some rules -- written in the charter about how much of the team will be required to accept it... [00:47] [TOPIC]New members [00:47] New Topic: New members [00:47] and what will be required to change it... etc [00:47] cprofitt: I think as general as possible :) [00:48] bodhi_zazen, not sure those things can be general... [00:48] pleia2: I think is up for membership [00:48] * pleia2 waves [00:48] we can use well tested ones [00:48] I know cprofitt [00:48] pleia2: Care to introduce yourself? [00:48] yes... I present pleia2 for membership [00:48] her wiki page is here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/lyz [00:49] she has worked with the Education FG is getting the Ubuntu Community Learning Project off the ground [00:49] Sure, I'm Elizabeth Krumbach, have been working with Ubuntu for a few years, became a member about 2 years ago, started working with cprofitt and all on the education FG related to Classroom which led into the new Learning project [00:49] and has been very helpful with several other teams [00:50] and I hang out in the #ubuntu-beginners team and help out as needed, would like to start doing soem Classroom classes under the BT label [00:50] Any questions for pleia2 ? Or can we vote? [00:50] I support pleia2 in membership :) [00:50] thanks :) [00:50] [VOTE] pleia2 for membersihp [00:50] Please vote on: pleia2 for membersihp. [00:50] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [00:50] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [00:50] +1 [00:50] +1 [00:50] +1 received from sdennie. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [00:50] +1 [00:50] +1 [00:50] +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [00:50] +1 [00:50] +1 received from Ash_R. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [00:50] pleia2 has been indispensable in assisting in the reformation of the tennessee loco team [00:50]