[10:05] <ttx> anyone around for the Java team meeting ?
[15:52] <evanrmurphy> RicardoPerez: ¡Has llegado! :)
[15:52] <RicardoPerez> evanrmurphy: por poco... I've a great headache!
[15:53] <evanrmurphy> RicardoPerez: Ugh, headaches are the worst. Sorry to hear that.
[15:55] <evanrmurphy> RicardoPerez: Perhaps we can discuss that issue early on in the meeting, then. Or we can always just drop an email to the ubuntu-translators mailing list, as you suggested from the beginning.
[15:57] <evanrmurphy> I'd be happy to raise it myself except that unfortunately I'm not sure I'd be able to explain the problem clearly.
[15:57] <RicardoPerez> evanrmurphy: well, we can talk about the jaunty -> karmic translations dumping with adi & david...
[15:57] <evanrmurphy> sounds good
[15:57] <RicardoPerez> I'll try it :)
[15:58] <RicardoPerez> we'll try it *
[15:59] <evanrmurphy> :)
[15:59] <dpm> hi everybody!
[15:59] <ArneGoetje> hi folks!
[15:59] <RicardoPerez> dpm: hi ;)
[15:59] <adiroiban> ola :)
[15:59] <danilos> hi guys :)
[15:59] <evanrmurphy> morning!
[16:00] <RicardoPerez> well, hi and "hola" to everyone :)
[16:00] <dpm> how are you all guys doing?
[16:00] <henninge> Hallo!
[16:00] <dpm> be very welcome to the first Ubuntu Translations meeting ever ;) !
[16:00] <dpm> \o/
[16:01] <Quintasan> \o
[16:01] <RicardoPerez> we're history! :P
[16:01]  * evanrmurphy does a slow clap
[16:01] <dpm> thanks Adi for taking care of the topic changes
[16:02] <dpm> we've got the Launchpad Translations team and Arne Goetje with us, and hopefully a whole bunch of translators and folks interested in translating Ubuntu as well
[16:02] <dpm> I'm not sure how many of us are there, but I don't think there will be need for moderation
[16:03] <dpm> therefore, please feel free to interrupt whenever you want to ask or comment anything
[16:03] <danilos> yeah, hello all from LP Translations team, here represented by henninge and me :)
[16:03]  * dpm claps loudly
[16:03] <henninge> yeah, jtv went to bed already...
[16:03] <henninge> ;-)
[16:03] <evanrmurphy> RicardoPerez, fmolinero and I are here representing the Ubuntu Spanish Translators.
[16:04] <dpm> great
[16:04] <dpm> fantástico
[16:04] <evanrmurphy> :)
[16:04] <RicardoPerez> hehe
[16:04] <ArneGoetje> and for those who don't know me, I'm doing the technical stuff regarding language-pack building.
[16:04] <RicardoPerez> ArneGoetje: great work!
[16:05] <evanrmurphy> +1
[16:05]  * dpm applauds Arne as well
[16:05] <adiroiban> dpm: feel free to hit the first topic
[16:05] <dpm> ok, shall we get started?
[16:06] <dpm> == Opening of Karmic translations ==
[16:06] <adiroiban> yep. so message sharing is up and running ?
[16:06] <dpm> The LP Translations team is working very hard in opening the Karmic translations
[16:07] <danilos> ok, I'll share more details
[16:07] <danilos> internally, karmic translations are up and sharing with jaunty
[16:07] <henninge> yeah!
[16:08] <ArneGoetje> \o/
[16:08] <danilos> we are currently in the process of importing all translations from packages into karmic before we can start producing karmic language packs and allow translations to happen
[16:08] <RicardoPerez> I wonder if a translation made in Jaunty now will be copied to Karmic
[16:08] <dpm> just a sec, does everyone here knows what message sharing is?
[16:08] <danilos> there are a lot of files to import (~35k, we've already done around 10k)
[16:08]  * Quintasan raises his hand at dpm's question\\
[16:09] <danilos> RicardoPerez: that's what message sharing is all about: in short, they will be shared between different series (like Jaunty and Karmic)
[16:09] <danilos> RicardoPerez: so, as soon as you translate one string in Jaunty, if it's in Karmic, it will appear as translated there as well; and vice versa
[16:09] <RicardoPerez> dpm, danilos: oh, great! I don't know what message sharing is
[16:09] <danilos> RicardoPerez: heh, see above :)
[16:10] <danilos> you can talk to me on #launchpad if you want more details afterwards
[16:10] <dpm> And this works both ways! I can translate the string in Jaunty and it will automatically appear translated in Karmic.
[16:10] <RicardoPerez> danilos: so, if I translate a string in Jaunty, that translation will be copied in Karmic even several weeks ago since the Karmic translations opening?
[16:10] <evanrmurphy> I wasn't familiar either, but that sounds really efficient.
[16:10] <dpm> RicardoPerez: ^
[16:10] <RicardoPerez> I asked a question already answered :)
[16:10] <danilos> RicardoPerez: yes
[16:11] <dpm> And for the moment, sharing will only be enabled for Karmic and Jaunty
[16:11] <RicardoPerez> well, that sounds really great
[16:11] <fmolinero> great
[16:11] <evanrmurphy> Is message sharing a new feature?
[16:11] <danilos> anyway, Jaunty and Karmic will initially be the only shared Ubuntu releases (and all future ones), but we'll slowly enable it for Intrepid and Hardy as well
[16:11] <henninge> evanrmurphy: yes
[16:11] <dpm> evanrmurphy: yes, starting with Karmic
[16:11] <danilos> evanrmurphy: yeah, it has not even been announced yet properly :)
[16:11] <dpm> This will be announced in more detail in due time, but for Ubuntu translators the important thing to have in mind is that this feature will start being used for the first time in Karmic,
[16:11] <evanrmurphy> how exciting!
[16:12] <dpm> so it is very important to get it tested throughout the development cycle, and if you see any bug in translations, you should report it soon
[16:12] <danilos> exactly!
[16:12] <RicardoPerez> is there a "lag" or latency between the string is translated into Jaunty and the translation being copied to Karmic?
[16:12] <danilos> anyway, back to the topic :)
[16:12] <RicardoPerez> oh, sorry about the offtopic
[16:12] <danilos> Karmic translations will be open sometime next week, as soon as imports are done
[16:13] <dpm> \o/
[16:13] <henninge> RicardoPerez: no lag, it is instant
[16:13] <RicardoPerez> henninge: thanks! that's great
[16:13] <danilos> when that happens, we'll also start producing language pack tarballs which ArneGoetje will package for everybody to play with
[16:14] <danilos> are there any questions about Karmic opening, or shall we move on? :)
[16:14] <dpm> let's move on then, we've got a long agenda :)
[16:14] <RicardoPerez> congrats to the superb work
[16:14] <dpm> == Kubuntu translations ==
[16:14] <dpm> After what we talked at UDS, we've kickstarted the process of making Kubuntu translations ...
[16:15] <dpm> ... well, rock!
[16:15] <dpm> We're working with the Kubuntu devs to sort out some technical issues we've had with KDE translations and Launchpad Translations, and I'm pretty excited about the outcome.
[16:16] <dpm> For those interested in the gory details, you can follow this thread later on -> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2009-June/002964.html
[16:16]  * ScottK is glad to see the progress.
[16:16] <dpm> The first step is to make sure the translation templates we've got in Launchpad match those in KDE
[16:17] <dpm> so that Kubuntu users don't get untranslated applications as it's happened in the past
[16:17] <evanrmurphy> I'm glad to see progress here too, always feel like I have to tiptoe around KDE translations.
[16:18] <dpm> yes, we will welcome the help of anyone interested or experienced in Kubuntu/KDE translations
[16:18] <dpm> translators, devs, etc
[16:19] <dpm> feel free to participate in the discussion on the kubuntu-devel@ list or at ubuntu-translators@
[16:19] <dpm> or to put any related items in the agenda for the next meeting
[16:19] <dpm> Also we're also planning a Kubuntu Translations Day on #kubuntu-devel, which will probably be in about a month's time (final date to be announced).
[16:20] <dpm> any feedback will be welcome
[16:21] <dpm> Are there any particular issues/comments you'd like to discuss right now?
[16:21] <dpm> related to Kubuntu translations?
[16:21] <adiroiban> so right now arne is renaming and moving templates?
[16:21] <ArneGoetje> yes
[16:22] <danilos> ArneGoetje: for that to work better with message sharing, can you make sure you rename jaunty templates at the same time? or just provide us a list and we can do a bulk rename
[16:22] <ArneGoetje> danilos: No, this is about the changes between Jaunty and Karmic. the templates in Jaunty have to stay like they are.
[16:23] <adiroiban> ArneGoetje: If you need help with Kubuntu let me know and see how we can coordinate
[16:24] <Quintasan> The deadline for translation is 15th of October?
[16:24] <ArneGoetje> adiroiban: will do
[16:24] <dpm> Quintasan: the you can see the release schedule here -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicReleaseSchedule
[16:25] <dpm> Quintasan: the two important deadlines are Oct 15th and Oct 22nd
[16:25] <adiroiban> for the Karmic approval, should we start to work on them now, or wait until the translations are opened
[16:25] <adiroiban> ?
[16:25] <ArneGoetje> Quintasan: in general, we will build the final language-packs about one week before release. Everything what comes in later than that goes into the updates.
[16:26]  * Quintasan starts preparation for translating then
[16:26] <dpm> ArneGoetje: I think you might be best suited to answer Adi's question
[16:27] <danilos> adiroiban: I think ArneGoetje emailed utc team with that
[16:27] <ArneGoetje> adiroiban: if you are talking about the approvals in the import queue, you can start now. However, be careful with KDE related templates. We need to check back with kubuntu-devel on what to do with them.
[16:28] <dpm> thanks Arne. Ok, shall we move on?
[16:28] <adiroiban> ArneGoetje: I will not touch KDE for now, but I will handle the others (mainly help and man files)
[16:29] <ArneGoetje> adiroiban: also, I want to review the oo.o templates with Chris Cheney, so better don't touch them either for now.
[16:29] <adiroiban> ok
[16:29] <ArneGoetje> adiroiban: help and man get blocked, we cannot handle them in language-packs.
[16:30] <adiroiban> yep, I know, and those are the easiest one to handle in the "needs review" list
[16:30] <adiroiban> from my point of view we can continue
[16:30] <ArneGoetje> adiroiban: heh
[16:30] <dpm> ok, thanks
[16:30] <dpm> == Language pack update policy ==
[16:30] <dpm> Something else we talked about at UDS was about the regular language pack releases
[16:31] <dpm> for stable releases
[16:31] <dpm> they are usually uploaded to the -proposed repository
[16:31] <dpm> and then to -updates, where they are made available for all users
[16:32] <dpm> in order to move them from -proposed to -updates, we need some testing and feedback
[16:32] <dpm> in order to avoid crashes, regressions, etc
[16:32] <danilos> (to explain that further: "for stable releases" means after Karmic is released)
[16:33] <dpm> yes
[16:33] <ArneGoetje> also for existing stable releases (Hardy, Intrepid, Jaunty).
[16:34] <RicardoPerez> Dapper, too?
[16:34] <dpm> Is Dapper still in Launchpad?
[16:34] <evanrmurphy> yep
[16:34] <ArneGoetje> RicardoPerez: no, we don't provide language-pack updates for Dapper anymore, because noone tests them.
[16:34] <danilos> dpm: if it's supported, it is :)
[16:35] <dpm> ah yes, I see it now
[16:35] <RicardoPerez> ArneGoetje: ok
[16:35] <adiroiban> for my point of view we can continue with the current policy and procees. Arne will announce on the Ubuntu Translators MP the new packages in proposed (maybe also a post on planet) and people will test and ping arne if everything is OK
[16:35] <adiroiban> or open bugs if there are problems
[16:35] <ArneGoetje> adiroiban: unfortunately that hasn't worked well in the past. I didn't get any response at all.
[16:36] <adiroiban> ArneGoetje: I know
[16:36] <dpm> adiroiban: yes, and that's what we were discussing in the UDS session
[16:36] <adiroiban> but In that case we should not update that language
[16:36] <danilos> yeah, "if you do not sign off on a proposed language pack for your language, it will not be promoted"
[16:37] <dpm> I've started a (still very crude) page to document the process and to track signoffs from users/translators -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/LanguagePackUpdatesQA
[16:37] <ArneGoetje> +1
[16:37] <RicardoPerez> adiroiban: well, sometimes "no response" means "tested and nothing was wrong, so its good" :)
[16:37] <adiroiban> it will be hard to find people to test translations for LTS
[16:37] <danilos> RicardoPerez: that is fine for development releases
[16:37] <evanrmurphy> adiroiban: Why is that?
[16:38] <adiroiban> RicardoPerez: but may also imply that nobody had review it
[16:38] <dpm> adiroiban: yes, but we must start from somewhere and we can focus on stable releases first
[16:38] <RicardoPerez> adiroiban: yes, that's right, too
[16:38] <dpm> an option might be to use virtual images for LTS
[16:38] <dpm> I mean for testing them
[16:38] <adiroiban> evanrmurphy: most translators are using stable or dev on their system... and is hard to install or test LTS
[16:39]  * evanrmurphy nods
[16:39] <dpm> but the point is that we should take a mora active approach to get signoffs for updates
[16:39] <ArneGoetje> I think it's not a big deal to use Virtualbox or another VM and run a copy of Hardy, Intrepid or Jaunty in there and test the language-packs... I do that myself.
[16:39] <adiroiban> but that would be just a very thin smoke test
[16:39] <RicardoPerez> the Ubuntu Translators Teams could be a good starting point for langpack testing
[16:40] <dpm> yes, and I think if we only upload those packages which have been explicitly signed off will encourage other teams to provide signoffs as well
[16:40] <adiroiban> I consider a translation-update teste after testing it for at least one day of regular usage
[16:40] <adiroiban> like starting firefox,  setting up pidgin, evolution
[16:41] <danilos> adiroiban: we should not strive for perfection right away
[16:41] <adiroiban> :)
[16:41] <danilos> adiroiban: but, if we can come up with a good checklist of things to check for, that will be more than enough
[16:41] <dpm> adiroiban: yes, that's something you can put in there https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/LanguagePackUpdatesQA
[16:41] <adiroiban> then just put the packates into -updates and wait for bug report
[16:42] <danilos> adiroiban: sometimes translations cause security problems, and that's not something ubuntu developers want to allow
[16:42] <danilos> adiroiban: I somehow remember you being in a UDS session about this as well :)
[16:42] <RicardoPerez> if I (suppose) tested the proposed langpacks and see that they're good, how can I send my feedback and to whom?
[16:42] <adiroiban> but a thin smoketest will not detect those security problems
[16:43] <adiroiban> and most translators testers are not the right person to do the security testing
[16:43] <danilos> adiroiban: others have caused some apps to be completely untranslated
[16:43] <dpm> RicardoPerez: we can track them in the wiki page above, you can just add your team to the list
[16:43] <danilos> adiroiban: it's mostly about testing for regressions in translations
[16:43] <RicardoPerez> dpm: sounds good
[16:43] <dpm> And each upload to -proposed will be notified to ubuntu-translators@
[16:44] <dpm> so that translators/users know when they can start testing
[16:44] <RicardoPerez> great, that's exactly what it must be done :)
[16:44] <evanrmurphy> dpm: That will be helpful.
[16:44] <dpm> I know it's not a perfect process in which it is not very automated, but we can try to refine it as we go along
[16:45] <adiroiban> ok. let's see if we can improve something
[16:45] <evanrmurphy> Strict signoffs make me nervous because it adds another hurdle to translation implementation.
[16:45] <evanrmurphy> But QA is very important.
[16:45] <adiroiban> but my view is that if we are only going to run some smoke test on translations, it's better to just copy them to -updates
[16:45] <adiroiban> as the smoke test will not be of much help
[16:45] <dpm> evanrmurphy: yes, but crashes and untranslated apps are annoying for users (to say the least)
[16:45] <RicardoPerez> regression issues for me are the worst, and I always take a deep look about that after a new langpacks update
[16:45] <danilos> adiroiban: well, translation updates can cause crashes as well, those can easily be detected by a quick test
[16:46] <ScottK> Enough people run with -proposed enabled that even without formal testing you'll get some signficant benifit.
[16:46] <dpm> ScottK: yes, but we have to somehow know that people are using -updates
[16:46] <ArneGoetje> adiroiban: no. in the past we had cases where the -proposed packages had a bug that caused firefox end up untranslated. We don't want to have those in -updates.
[16:46] <evanrmurphy> RicardoPerez: That's good to know!
[16:47] <adiroiban> Maybe, rather that ask translators to test proposed, we should ask for using the weekly lang-packs
[16:47] <RicardoPerez> a weak test is better than no test at all
[16:47] <adiroiban> in this way we can detect errors earliers
[16:47] <adiroiban> early
[16:47] <RicardoPerez> +1 for the weekly langpacks
[16:48] <danilos> adiroiban: that's orthogonal to that... using weekly builds is recommended for any active translators
[16:48] <dpm> adiroiban: yes, we can do this additionally as well
[16:48] <RicardoPerez> weekly langpacks has been very useful in the past
[16:48] <adiroiban> I'm using the weekly builds for the current stable release
[16:48] <danilos> adiroiban: but, if there's no actual input, how do you know that someone is using them, and they haven't said anything, or that nobody is using them?
[16:49] <danilos> anyway, this is a topic that can be rehashed a bit more
[16:49] <adiroiban> ok
[16:49] <danilos> let's talk about it some more next week, and move on to Ubuntu Translations Project
[16:49] <adiroiban> we can continue on the mailing list
[16:49] <dpm> yes
[16:49] <RicardoPerez> is there a jaunty weekly langpacks=
[16:49] <RicardoPerez> ?
[16:49] <adiroiban> it should
[16:49] <danilos> adiroiban: next topic is yours :)
[16:49] <dpm> Ricardo: yes
[16:49] <dpm> == Ubuntu Translations Project (AdiRoiban) ==
[16:49] <adiroiban> :)
[16:50] <adiroiban> is ours :)
[16:50] <adiroiban> ok
[16:50] <ArneGoetje> ok, about bug reporting: I think it's best to *not* report bugs abainst the language-packs themselves (too many of them!), but rather open a bug in the Ubuntu Translations bugtracker.
[16:50] <adiroiban> I agree
[16:51] <adiroiban> so we have Ubuntu Translation as a hub for all l10n/i18n issues
[16:51] <ArneGoetje> yes
[16:51] <RicardoPerez> I would like to point about the many many i18n bugreports I opened in the past
[16:51] <adiroiban> and also to leverage Rosetta of Ubuntu problems
[16:51] <ArneGoetje> RicardoPerez: against which packages?
[16:51] <evanrmurphy> ArneGoetje: Where is the Ubuntu Translations bugtracker? It's not this (https://launchpad.net/utbb), is it?
[16:51] <RicardoPerez> many times a i18n issue is marked as a "low" priority
[16:52] <ArneGoetje> evanrmurphy: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations
[16:52] <RicardoPerez> ArneGoetje: I always posted i18n bugreports against the "problematic" apps
[16:52] <danilos> RicardoPerez: that's why there's a team and a project now to better coordinate that and poke other developers :)
[16:52] <RicardoPerez> not against the langpack itself
[16:52] <danilos> RicardoPerez: i18n bugs are bugs in applications, you should just tag them with i18n and file them against applications
[16:52] <RicardoPerez> danilos: that sounds great!
[16:53] <ArneGoetje> RicardoPerez: if you file them against each individual pkg, then I most likely won't see them...
[16:53] <RicardoPerez> danilos: that's right, that's the way I use
[16:53] <danilos> ArneGoetje: oh, sorry, I may have misunderstood the idea behind ubuntu-translations project
[16:54] <RicardoPerez> ArneGoetje: that's right... so what should be the process when I want to post a i18n bugrepot?
[16:54] <danilos> RicardoPerez: the problem is with notifications: there is no way to subscribe to a tag in Launchpad bugs, so that's probably why ArneGoetje wants bugs filed against this new project
[16:54] <ArneGoetje> danilos: well, if it's really a bug in the app, then that's ok. But if it is a bug with translations, then please use the Ubuntu Translations bugtracker.
[16:54] <adiroiban> yes. the big problem is with tag notification
[16:54] <RicardoPerez> oh, great... so I should post the bugreport against the app and the new project itself, doesn't it?
[16:55] <danilos> RicardoPerez: you can just add a bugtask against the project as well
[16:55] <adiroiban> RicardoPerez: or just add "ubuntu-translations" in "Also affected" field
[16:55] <ArneGoetje> RicardoPerez: yes, that would be better. just add the project. Then we will know there is something going on.
[16:55] <dpm> can't we do both? Assign it to the app, tag it and assign it to ubuntu-translations
[16:55] <dpm> oops, sorrz, alreadz answered
[16:55] <ArneGoetje> dpm: yes
[16:55] <adiroiban> so we have Ubuntu Translation as a central hub for i18n/l10n issues
[16:55] <RicardoPerez> great... all the three at the same time :)
[16:56] <adiroiban> and try to work arround Launchpad limitations
[16:56]  * ArneGoetje grins
[16:56] <RicardoPerez> what's the Ubuntu Translation project name in Launchpad?
[16:56] <RicardoPerez> I can't find it
[16:57] <henninge> untuntu-translatoins
[16:57] <henninge> untuntu-translations
[16:57] <danilos> RicardoPerez: quoted above, "ubuntu-translations"
[16:57] <dpm> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations
[16:57] <RicardoPerez> oh, great, I mean "ubuntu-translation"
[16:58] <adiroiban> beside filling bugs
[16:58] <adiroiban> we should also handle bug triage
[16:58] <RicardoPerez> I think we should comment the above bugfilling process in the ubuntu-translators @
[16:58] <RicardoPerez> so anybody knows
[16:59] <adiroiban> I can take some time and write a wikipage about bug reporting and bug triage
[16:59] <ArneGoetje> RicardoPerez: yes, will do
[16:59] <dpm> I agree, we should announce it and promote it more
[16:59] <evanrmurphy> I agree as well.
[16:59] <adiroiban> but beside translators, developers and people from 5aDay should be aware of it
[16:59] <dpm> good point
[16:59] <RicardoPerez> can we do anything about the "low priority by default" problem in the i18n bugreports?
[17:00] <adiroiban> RicardoPerez: i don't think so
[17:00] <adiroiban> just try to persuate developers to incerease the bug...
[17:00] <RicardoPerez> that's a pity, because not always a i18n issue should be considered a low priority one...
[17:00] <danilos> dpm, adiroiban, ArneGoetje: it should also go to a Ubuntu translation instructions as linked from all the translate pages on Launchpad
[17:01] <dpm> danilos: yes, it should be documented
[17:01] <danilos> RicardoPerez: sometimes you can push them upstream and have them fixed there
[17:01] <adiroiban> danilos: where is that? :)
[17:01] <Spike1506> com&
[17:01] <RicardoPerez> danilos: that's right. I needed to do that in the past sometimes
[17:02] <dpm> anyway, we're running late. I propose to leave it here and move the topis left to the next meeting in two weeks time
[17:02] <adiroiban> ok
[17:02] <RicardoPerez> great
[17:02] <dpm> thank you all for the great discussion
[17:02] <adiroiban> just a small comment, I think we should continue the discussion on the ML
[17:02] <adiroiban> and not leave them until next meeting
[17:02] <dpm> adiroiban: of course, feel free to do that as well
[17:02] <adiroiban> right now I don't see to much activity on the translators mailinglist
[17:03] <adiroiban> :)
[17:03] <evanrmurphy> don't forget we have #ubuntu-translators as well
[17:03] <evanrmurphy> discussion can be had there and then copied to the ML
[17:03] <adiroiban> ok
[17:03] <dpm> ok, shall we leave it here then?
[17:03] <RicardoPerez> ubuntu-translators/ubuntu-translations...
[17:03] <RicardoPerez> ok
[17:04] <evanrmurphy> Great talking with all of you today, turns out we have a pretty lively group!
[17:04] <dpm> cool
[17:04]  * henninge bounces around lively ...
[17:04] <dpm> thank you all!
[17:04] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[17:04] <RicardoPerez> thanks to everybody!
[17:04] <henninge> dpm, adiroiban: thanks!
[17:04] <adiroiban> yep. looking forward for reading you :)
[17:04] <evanrmurphy> henninge: lol
[17:04] <evanrmurphy> Thanks all!
[17:05] <evanrmurphy> Can we dedicate a section of the wiki to copies of these meeing logs?
[17:05] <evanrmurphy> s/meeing/meeting/
[17:05] <dpm> sure, I'll take care of that
[17:06] <evanrmurphy> dpm: awesome!
[17:07] <RicardoPerez> see you!
[19:47] <Ddorda> did the translators meeting has over?
[19:48] <RoAkSoAx> Ddorda, yes, long time ago
[19:48] <Ddorda> =\ how sad.. i juts had no idea when it is..
[19:48] <Ddorda> where can i see the logging?
[19:49] <Ddorda> oh.. nvrm :P
[19:49] <nhandler> Ddorda: Try irclogs.ubuntu.com
[19:49] <Ddorda> it's in the topic
[19:50] <ogra> what does 16:00 UTC do in the topic ?
[19:51]  * ogra fixes
[19:52] <Ddorda> there were only 3 people on the meeting?
[19:53] <Ddorda> that very bad =\ most of the translators didn't even knew about it...
[19:53] <Ddorda> is there any rss for the news, that i'll can be announced next time?
[19:53] <ogra> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
[22:00] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[22:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:00. The chair is NCommander.
[22:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[22:00] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090702
[22:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090702
[22:00] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
[22:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
[22:00] <NCommander> who's here?
[22:01] <paulliu> Hi
[22:01] <plars> me
[22:01] <lool> hey
[22:01] <NCommander> hola lool
[22:01]  * NCommander pokes ogra
[22:01]  * ogra bleeds
[22:02] <davidm> HI NCommander
[22:02] <NCommander> hey davidm
[22:02] <ogra> dont you take the stick with the tip !
[22:02] <lool> GrueMaster, dyfet  poke
[22:02] <lool> No stevenk
[22:02]  * NCommander duct tapes ogra 
[22:02] <ogra> heh
[22:02] <GrueMaster> Poke back at you.
[22:02] <NCommander> I'll give it another minute
[22:04] <mcasadevall> bah
[22:04] <mcasadevall> Laptop hung
[22:05] <NCommander> There
[22:05]  * NCommander face palms
[22:05] <NCommander> My laptop isn't quite dead it seems ...
[22:05] <NCommander> hi StevenK
[22:05] <NCommander> So who else isn't here?
[22:06]  * StevenK shores
[22:06]  * NCommander didn't know shores was a verb
[22:06] <NCommander> Ok
[22:06] <NCommander> anyway
[22:06] <NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
[22:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
[22:06] <ogra> NCommander, en_AU
[22:07] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander to investigate https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vnc4/+bug/338148 (co)
[22:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to investigate https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vnc4/+bug/338148 (co)
[22:07] <NCommander> c/o yet again
[22:07] <NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster to retest on i386 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/337809
[22:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster to retest on i386 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/337809
[22:07] <GrueMaster> ditto
[22:07] <NCommander> [topic] # StevenK and lool to collobrate on -translations and to report back next week
[22:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  # StevenK and lool to collobrate on -translations and to report back next week
[22:07] <lool> We had a meeting about this with kyleN
[22:08] <lool> It clarified how we'll handle translations
[22:08] <lool> kyleN wants to have translations in the upstream project but by the Ubuntu translators
[22:08] <lool> He's discussing that with them
[22:08] <lool> and he will complete the spec
[22:08] <lool> StevenK: Anything else?
[22:08] <StevenK> So we're waiting for him
[22:09] <StevenK> We should have more information about it next meeting, so please carry it over
[22:09] <NCommander> [action] StevenK and lool to collobrate on -translations and to report back next week
[22:09] <MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK and lool to collobrate on -translations and to report back next week
[22:09]  * NCommander kicks the wiki
[22:10] <NCommander> [topic] plars to draft and implement mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting
[22:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  plars to draft and implement mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting
[22:10] <plars> drafted, yes, implemented - in progress
[22:10] <lool> NCommander: Didn't we skip a couple of action items?
[22:10] <NCommander> lool, those should be under spec review
[22:10] <lool> Which looked confusing, but still
[22:10] <lool> Hmm ok
[22:10] <NCommander> lool, I think I accidently c/p'ed part of the minutes when I made the AR list
[22:11]  * ogra would like an agenda link too :)
[22:11] <lool> Dropped from action items
[22:11] <NCommander> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090702
[22:11] <NCommander> thanks lool
[22:11] <NCommander> Sorry about that folks
[22:11] <NCommander> Ok
[22:11] <NCommander> [topic] New Meeting Time Revote
[22:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  New Meeting Time Revote
[22:12] <NCommander> [topic] New meeting day only
[22:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  New meeting day only
[22:12] <NCommander> I've heard candidates for both Thursday and Tuesday
[22:12] <NCommander> Anyone want to put forth anything new?
[22:12] <davidm> Any reason why not Wednesday?
[22:12] <davidm> Just wondering
[22:13] <StevenK> Which ends up being Thursday for me.
[22:13] <lool> I personally would like to keep a day between IRC and phone meetings to avoid stupid combinations
[22:13]  * StevenK hides
[22:13] <NCommander> davidm, no one suggested it ;-)
[22:13] <NCommander> We could just vote on each day of the week ;-)
[22:13] <NCommander> Alright
[22:13] <NCommander> [vote] Keep the meetings on Thursday
[22:13] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Keep the meetings on Thursday.
[22:13] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[22:13] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[22:13] <ogra> on wed the meeting channel is quite empty
[22:13] <lool> (I think Friday and Monday are preferably avoided due our timezone coverage_
[22:13] <plars> are we assuming that it would be at the same time?
[22:13] <davidm> -1
[22:13] <MootBot> -1 received from davidm. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[22:14] <ogra> tue is usually pretty full
[22:14] <lool> -1
[22:14] <MootBot> -1 received from lool. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
[22:14] <NCommander> plars, we're voting for the time and day separatel
[22:14] <GrueMaster> +1
[22:14] <MootBot> +1 received from GrueMaster. 1 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[22:14] <NCommander> +1
[22:14] <MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 2 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[22:14] <paulliu> +0
[22:14] <MootBot> Abstention received from paulliu. 2 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[22:14] <StevenK> 0
[22:14] <ogra> -1
[22:14] <MootBot> -1 received from ogra. 2 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
[22:14] <StevenK> +0
[22:14] <MootBot> Abstention received from StevenK. 2 for, 3 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -1
[22:14] <plars> vote +0
[22:14] <lool> ogra: We can find another place, that's ok
[22:14] <plars> +0
[22:14] <MootBot> Abstention received from plars. 2 for, 3 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -1
[22:14] <NCommander> plars, do +0, +1, or -1
[22:14] <NCommander> SteveA, the bot didn't get you
[22:14] <NCommander> er, StevenK
[22:14] <NCommander> and my laptop's filesystem just did a bunk
[22:14]  * ogra would rather stay wthin the ubuntu meetin conventions
[22:14] <StevenK> [07:14] < MootBot> Abstention received from StevenK.
[22:14] <plars> no, it got stevek though
[22:15] <NCommander> oh, ok
[22:15] <lool> 9 votes
[22:15] <NCommander> [endvote]
[22:15] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 3 against. 3 abstained. Total: -1
[22:15] <NCommander> oh wow
[22:15] <NCommander> my /home on my laptop broke fsck ...
[22:15] <GrueMaster> Ok, so not Thursday.  Vote for Tuesday?
[22:16] <NCommander> [vote] Wednesday's for meeting day
[22:16] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Wednesday's for meeting day.
[22:16] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[22:16] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[22:16] <ogra> doit
[22:16] <NCommander> +1
[22:16] <plars> are we assuming you can vote in any/all of these?
[22:16] <MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:16] <lool> -1
[22:16] <MootBot> -1 received from lool. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[22:16] <ogra> +1
[22:16] <NCommander> plars, yeah
[22:16] <MootBot> +1 received from ogra. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:16] <StevenK> +0
[22:16] <paulliu> +0
[22:16] <MootBot> Abstention received from paulliu. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:16] <MootBot> Abstention received from StevenK. 2 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:16] <plars> +1
[22:16] <MootBot> +1 received from plars. 3 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:16] <GrueMaster> +0
[22:16] <MootBot> Abstention received from GrueMaster. 3 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:17] <NCommander> so who else hasn't voted?
[22:17] <davidm> +1
[22:17] <MootBot> +1 received from davidm. 4 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 3
[22:17] <dyfet_> +1
[22:17] <MootBot> +1 received from dyfet_. 5 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 4
[22:17] <NCommander> That's 9
[22:17] <NCommander> [endvote]
[22:17] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 1 against. 3 abstained. Total: 4
[22:17] <NCommander> [vote] Moving the meetings to Tuesdays
[22:17] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Moving the meetings to Tuesdays.
[22:17] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[22:17] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[22:17] <StevenK> +1
[22:17] <MootBot> +1 received from StevenK. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:17]  * ogra would like to hear why lool was against
[22:17] <lool> +1
[22:17] <MootBot> +1 received from lool. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:17] <paulliu> +0
[22:17] <MootBot> Abstention received from paulliu. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:17] <NCommander> -1
[22:17] <MootBot> -1 received from NCommander. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:17] <ogra> +1
[22:17] <MootBot> +1 received from ogra. 3 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:17] <davidm> +0
[22:17] <MootBot> Abstention received from davidm. 3 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:17] <plars> oh
[22:17] <plars> I thought we just voted on tuesday
[22:17] <plars> darn
[22:18] <plars> +1
[22:18] <MootBot> +1 received from plars. 4 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
[22:18] <lool> plars: Were you in favor or against Wed or didn't care?
[22:18] <GrueMaster> +1
[22:18] <MootBot> +1 received from GrueMaster. 5 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 4
[22:18] <NCommander> Who didn't vote?
[22:19] <dyfet_> +1
[22:19] <MootBot> +1 received from dyfet_. 6 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 5
[22:19] <plars> lool: I was against wednesday, I had seen GrueMaster suggesting to vote for tuesday and thought that's what we were voting on
[22:19] <lool> NCommander: endvote?
[22:19] <lool> 9 votes
[22:20] <GrueMaster> plars: doesn't matter.  Tuesday beat Wednessday, 6-5.
[22:20] <GrueMaster> Or 5-4
[22:20] <davidm> I think Tuesday beat Wednesday
[22:20] <NCommander> [endvote]
[22:20] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 1 against. 2 abstained. Total: 5
[22:20] <NCommander> I'm against Tuesday because it means we need to move the time or move the place
[22:20] <lool> [agreed] Moving meetings to Tuesday
[22:20] <davidm> Well Tuesday just became the day
[22:21] <StevenK> We could move the IRC meeting forward a few hours. That would work for me. :-P
[22:21] <lool> NCommander: It's not terribly hard, we can have them on #ubuntu-mobile or mobile-meeting
[22:21] <davidm> Now the time
[22:21] <NCommander> [action] New meeting day to become Tuesday
[22:21] <MootBot> ACTION received:  New meeting day to become Tuesday
[22:21] <NCommander> [topic] New meeting time
[22:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  New meeting time
[22:21] <NCommander> Candidates: Current Time
[22:22] <NCommander> Please uggest any other ones you may wish
[22:22] <davidm> Problem is we span from OZ to the West coast of the US
[22:22] <NCommander> davidm, the issue at the moment is on tuesdays we bump up against other meets
[22:22] <GrueMaster> NCommander: What times are available Tuesdays?
[22:22] <ogra> not many
[22:22] <GrueMaster> Maybe that would make things easier.
[22:23] <ogra> there are a lot rotating meetings
[22:23] <ogra> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
[22:23] <lool> I think we should pick the best time(s) and decide of the location afterwards
[22:23] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
[22:23] <lool> It doesn't matter not to use #ubuntu-meeting
[22:23] <NCommander> [idea] 22:00 UTC
[22:23] <MootBot> IDEA received:  22:00 UTC
[22:23]  * ogra thinks it does
[22:23] <lool> It's late
[22:24] <NCommander> Not a huge fan, but it does move the meetings out of the way
[22:24] <lool> ogra: what for?
[22:24] <ogra> for predictability
[22:24] <ogra> for being in sync with all the other teams
[22:24] <lool> ogra: So we will stick with the new place
[22:24] <StevenK> IE, 22:00 UTC is in 35 minutes
[22:25] <ogra> thats 00:00 here
[22:25] <davidm> Thanks StevenK
[22:25] <ogra> (and in france)
[22:25] <lool> We're using different chans all the time I don't see a big deal with using a different chan for meetings
[22:25] <davidm> That is a bit late
[22:25] <lool> I don't mind midnight if we rotate
[22:25] <GrueMaster> lool: some community members may need to be in other meetings.
[22:25] <davidm> what about 20:00?
[22:25] <ogra> yeah
[22:26] <lool> GrueMaster: They can raise their voice and be heard now or bring it up if it affects them
[22:26] <lool> GrueMaster: anybody in particular?
[22:26] <davidm> can we find two different times that work and rotate?
[22:26] <NCommander> maybe we should vote on place before time
[22:26] <GrueMaster> none that I personally know of.
[22:26] <StevenK> Ugh, I don't like 20:00
[22:28] <plars> NCommander: I think one implies the other
[22:28] <lool> 20 UTC is ugly for StevenK and paulliu
[22:28] <NCommander> I'm going to put using #ubuntu-meeting to a vote, just because if we decide not to, then the time question is at least easier
[22:28] <paulliu> Yeah, but I'm ok.
[22:28] <NCommander> any objections?
[22:29] <lool> Yeah, I think it's not the right thing to do
[22:29] <paulliu> Since it's impossible to make everyone happy. Just vote.
[22:29] <lool> Picking a time affects us all strongly, picking a place not at all
[22:29] <davidm> OK we need a time[s] make it ugly for paulliu and Stevenk one month/week and ugly for GrueMaster  at the other perhaps
[22:29] <lool> +1 for davidm
[22:29] <NCommander> lool, the place question at least frees up times that we wouldn't have this room available
[22:29]  * GrueMaster is already ugly.  time won't matter.
[22:30] <lool> NCommander: It does not, it puts the important topic between a rock and a hard place
[22:30] <ogra> could we vonte on moving GrueMaster to .au ?
[22:30] <davidm> NCommander, from my point of view where does not matter time effects people far more
[22:30] <GrueMaster> +10
[22:30] <ogra> :)
[22:30] <StevenK> Haha
[22:30] <NCommander> How about just moving the Mobile team to a single timezone
[22:30] <StevenK> How about Cairns, Queensland?
[22:30]  * StevenK waits for davidm to vote +100000000
[22:30] <lool> What about current time, or current time minus 12 hours
[22:30] <davidm> I suggested that we need the join the flat earth sociality
[22:31] <lool> One week out of two, or one month
[22:31] <davidm> I like Cairns
[22:31] <davidm> A LOT
[22:31] <ogra> davidm, ++++++
[22:31] <NCommander> Preferably Alaskian time zone. :-)
[22:31] <ogra> (on discworld)
[22:31] <paulliu> North pole?? There's no time.
[22:31] <NCommander> oh come on
[22:32] <NCommander> I can't be the only one who wants to move to alaska
[22:32] <ogra> and not much distraction
[22:32] <GrueMaster> We need a ringworld.  Get the foundations team on it.
[22:32] <NCommander> Ok then
[22:32] <NCommander> [vote] Keeping the meeting time as is
[22:32] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Keeping the meeting time as is.
[22:32] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[22:32] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[22:32] <lool> +0
[22:32] <MootBot> Abstention received from lool. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[22:32] <ogra> +0
[22:32] <MootBot> Abstention received from ogra. 0 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
[22:32] <paulliu> +0
[22:32] <MootBot> Abstention received from paulliu. 0 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 0
[22:32] <MootBot> Private abstention received. 0 for, 0 against. 4 abstained. Count is now 0
[22:32] <davidm> 12:00 would be one time that would shift towards putting GrueMaster in a bad time
[22:33] <StevenK> +0
[22:33] <MootBot> Abstention received from StevenK. 0 for, 0 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 0
[22:33] <plars> +1
[22:33] <MootBot> +1 received from plars. 1 for, 0 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:33] <lool> davidm: I proposed earlier 10pm UTC and 10am UTC, rotating
[22:33] <GrueMaster> 0
[22:33] <GrueMaster> +0
[22:33] <ogra> who was that private Abstention ?
[22:33] <MootBot> Abstention received from GrueMaster. 1 for, 0 against. 6 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:33] <lool> That's very early for east coast at 10am UTC
[22:34] <NCommander> ogra, doesn't that defeat the point of a private abstention?
[22:34] <ogra> heh, ok
[22:34] <lool> and late west coast
[22:34] <davidm> 12:00 and 21:00 is a not bad pair
[22:34] <ajmitch> ogra: wasn't me! :)
[22:34]  * NCommander thinks he lost his /home
[22:34] <ogra> NCommander, but you can easily guess by looking who voted :P
[22:34] <davidm> I have not voted
[22:34] <GrueMaster> Hey, it's summer time.  Nothing on TV anyways.
[22:34] <davidm> +0
[22:34] <MootBot> Abstention received from davidm. 1 for, 0 against. 7 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:34] <dyfet_> +0
[22:34] <MootBot> Abstention received from dyfet_. 1 for, 0 against. 8 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:34] <davidm> I just don't care
[22:34] <NCommander> [endvote]
[22:34] <MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 0 against. 8 abstained. Total: 1
[22:35] <plars> it seems like 13:00 wouldn't be *too* horrible, there are a few that are slightly early/late, but no midnight or 3:00 AM type problems that I can see
[22:35] <StevenK> Haha, 8 abstentions.
[22:35] <NCommander> Ok
[22:35] <NCommander> [vote] 20:00 UTC
[22:35] <MootBot> Please vote on:  20:00 UTC.
[22:35] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[22:35] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[22:35] <NCommander> +0
[22:35] <MootBot> Abstention received from NCommander. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[22:35] <plars> +1
[22:35] <MootBot> +1 received from plars. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:35] <paulliu> +0
[22:35] <MootBot> Abstention received from paulliu. 1 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:35] <ogra> +ß
[22:35] <ogra> bah
[22:35] <plars> hah
[22:35] <ogra> +0
[22:35] <MootBot> Abstention received from ogra. 1 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:35] <StevenK> -1
[22:36] <MootBot> -1 received from StevenK. 1 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 0
[22:36] <lool> +1
[22:36] <MootBot> +1 received from lool. 2 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:36] <dyfet_> +0
[22:36] <MootBot> Abstention received from dyfet_. 2 for, 1 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:36] <GrueMaster> +0
[22:36] <MootBot> Abstention received from GrueMaster. 2 for, 1 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:36] <GrueMaster> Dk
[22:36] <davidm> +0
[22:36] <MootBot> Abstention received from davidm. 2 for, 1 against. 6 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:36] <GrueMaster> er, DC
[22:36] <davidm> Yes 13:00 UTC is not too bad
[22:36] <NCommander> [endvote]
[22:36] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 1 against. 6 abstained. Total: 1
[22:36] <NCommander> [vote] 13:00UTC
[22:36] <MootBot> Please vote on:  13:00UTC.
[22:36] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[22:36] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[22:36] <davidm> or rotating 13:00 21:;00
[22:37] <StevenK> +1
[22:37] <MootBot> +1 received from StevenK. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:37] <davidm> +1
[22:37] <MootBot> +1 received from davidm. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:37] <plars> +0
[22:37] <MootBot> Abstention received from plars. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:37] <ogra> +1
[22:37] <MootBot> +1 received from ogra. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[22:37] <lool> +1
[22:37] <MootBot> +1 received from lool. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[22:37] <GrueMaster> +0
[22:37] <MootBot> Abstention received from GrueMaster. 4 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 4
[22:37] <paulliu> +1
[22:37] <MootBot> +1 received from paulliu. 5 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 5
[22:37] <dyfet_> +1
[22:37] <MootBot> +1 received from dyfet_. 6 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 6
[22:37] <NCommander> +0
[22:37] <MootBot> Abstention received from NCommander. 6 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 6
[22:37] <ogra> would put us right before the TB meeting if we stayed here
[22:38] <NCommander> ogra, we'd never have another two hour meeting again
[22:38] <ogra> (every second week at least)
[22:38] <ogra> yeah
[22:38] <ogra> not a bad idea :)
[22:38] <StevenK> So we need to finish on time, or the TB will revoke us
[22:38] <NCommander> That sucks :-P
[22:38] <plars> right, a good reason to keep the meeting to a reasonable length
[22:38] <lool> davidm: We'd have to move our weekly call but that's minor
[22:38] <davidm> lool, true
[22:38] <StevenK> lool: Why, the IRC meeting would be Tuesday
[22:39] <lool> StevenK: I'm speaking of the one to one
[22:39] <StevenK> Oh
[22:39] <NCommander> [endvote]
[22:39] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 6
[22:39] <NCommander> [vote] 13:00/21:00 rotating weekly
[22:39] <MootBot> Please vote on:  13:00/21:00 rotating weekly.
[22:39] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[22:39] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[22:39] <NCommander> +1
[22:39] <MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[22:39] <StevenK> +9
[22:39] <StevenK> Er
[22:39] <plars> +1
[22:39] <MootBot> +1 received from plars. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:39] <StevenK> +0
[22:39] <MootBot> Abstention received from StevenK. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:39] <paulliu> +0
[22:39] <MootBot> Abstention received from paulliu. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:39] <lool> +0
[22:39] <MootBot> Abstention received from lool. 2 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:39] <plars> err
[22:39] <davidm> +1
[22:39] <ogra> +0
[22:39] <plars> wait... WEEKLY?
[22:39] <MootBot> Abstention received from ogra. 2 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 2
[22:39] <MootBot> +1 received from davidm. 3 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 3
[22:39] <davidm> plars, rotating
[22:40] <davidm> we did not set the interval
[22:40] <plars> ok
[22:40] <NCommander> We can vote for other intervals if need be ;-)
[22:40] <dyfet_> +0
[22:40] <MootBot> Abstention received from dyfet_. 3 for, 0 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 3
[22:40] <StevenK> davidm: NCommander did set the interval for the vote
[22:40]  * plars is +1 for rotating, -1 for weekly
[22:40] <ogra> plars nah, two meetings every tue. indeed so we get to our 2h :P
[22:40] <GrueMaster> +0
[22:40] <MootBot> Abstention received from GrueMaster. 3 for, 0 against. 6 have abstained. Count is now 3
[22:40] <davidm> Oh my bad
[22:40] <NCommander> [endvote]
[22:40] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 6 abstained. Total: 3
[22:40] <davidm> so he did
[22:41]  * NCommander whistles
[22:41] <NCommander> so um
[22:41] <NCommander> Do we need another vote?
[22:41] <StevenK> Hell no
[22:41] <lool> I think 13 UTC had quite some success
[22:41] <davidm> Yes
[22:41] <plars> vote on whether we need another vote?
[22:41] <davidm> ha
[22:42] <NCommander> Isn't that where we had it WAY back in the day?
[22:42] <lool> plars: One another vote or two rotating votes?
[22:42]  * davidm thinks we are going vote crazy
[22:42] <StevenK> We have just spent 30 minutes voting. Enough!
[22:42] <NCommander> I rmemeber getting up at 8 or 9 am for voting
[22:42] <plars> davidm: you should have seen it last week
[22:42]  * ogra wants to vote if thats already enough !
[22:42] <lool> StevenK: Ah thanks, I didn't want to rant about it myself :)
[22:43] <ajmitch> StevenK: as an outsider, it's mildly entertaining
[22:43]  * GrueMaster is tired of voting
[22:43] <StevenK> lool: :-D
[22:43] <NCommander> StevenK, I'm not, this is the one place where my vote means somethng
[22:43] <StevenK> [vote] Pointless vote to keep NCommander happy
[22:43] <MootBot> StevenK, Only the meeting chair can do that
[22:44] <StevenK> Bite me, MootBot
[22:44]  * StevenK smirks
[22:44] <NCommander> / [vote] to annoy StevenK
[22:44] <NCommander> Ok
[22:44] <NCommander> [topic] Specification Review
[22:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
[22:44] <NCommander> (finally)
[22:45] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-armel-toolchain
[22:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-armel-toolchain
[22:45] <ogra> vote on specs ?
[22:45] <lool> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~canonical-mobile?show=all
[22:45] <lool> mobile-karmic-armel-toolchain: nothing new to report
[22:45] <NCommander> lool, launchpad just hated me
[22:45] <lool> waiting on adam
[22:45] <lool> paulliu:    mobile-unr-karmic-connman?
[22:45] <StevenK> ogra: Oh, meh!
[22:45] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-unr-karmic-connman  (paulliu)
[22:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-connman  (paulliu)
[22:46] <NCommander> I feel uspred
[22:46] <paulliu> I view the source code of connman.
[22:46] <lool> paulliu: Blocked on anything?
[22:46] <paulliu> And I found that the NetworkManager compatible methods are few. Only 3.
[22:46] <lool> wow
[22:46] <ogra> davidm, can you assign the cdimage thing to me so it shows up on the list ?
[22:46] <NCommander> ow
[22:46] <paulliu> Is the action item to implement it?
[22:46] <lool> paulliu: We should check whether what we ship works well enough with it
[22:47] <davidm> ogra, I will do so now
[22:47] <lool> paulliu: I think we should discuss that offline with QA folks
[22:47] <ogra> davidm, thanks
[22:47] <plars> ogra: I think canonical-mobile has to be subscribed for it to be on the list
[22:47] <paulliu> It works good for users.
[22:47] <lool> paulliu: Gathering a list of apps which use NM's dbus API and checking whether they work with connman
[22:47] <lool> and then feeding that to QA to ensure they are on the radar
[22:47] <ogra> plars, it shows up if a team member is assigned i think
[22:48] <paulliu> Connman itself works good. Small and fast, stable.
[22:48] <lool> plars, ogra: any of sub-ed assigned etc. is enough
[22:48] <NCommander> [topic] karmic-freescale-desktop  (ogra & NCommander(?))
[22:48] <MootBot> New Topic:  karmic-freescale-desktop  (ogra & NCommander(?))
[22:48] <ogra> in the works
[22:48] <paulliu> Just not good to use by other apps. Like Epiphany, due to lack of methods, it starts with off-line mode.
[22:48] <ogra> just hunting mono ftbfs down
[22:49] <lool> paulliu: What matters is all apps in the UNR seed work with connman
[22:49] <NCommander> ogra, did we decide if we're going to switch the assignee?
[22:49] <ogra> NCommander, no, we'll do that on the fly in case amit cant send the board back
[22:49]  * GrueMaster hates when two topics are going at the same time.
[22:49] <davidm> I think you will have to rin connman in compatibility mode
[22:49] <ogra> NCommander, i'm supposed to have the other board in time so we are able to flip if needed
[22:50] <davidm> At least that is what tony espy has said
[22:50] <paulliu> davidm: yes, it's in compatible mode.
[22:50] <ogra> ha, i can assign myself to a spec :)
[22:50] <NCommander> [topic] karmic-marvell-desktop  (NCommander)
[22:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  karmic-marvell-desktop  (NCommander)
[22:50] <davidm> Ah OK
[22:50] <NCommander> No progress, needs hardware
[22:50] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-qa-karmic-arm  (plars)
[22:50] <lool> davidm: The compat features aren't enough, they don't cover what all apps need
[22:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-qa-karmic-arm  (plars)
[22:50] <ogra> NCommander, reload the speclist so you'll find one more
[22:50] <lool> davidm: What matters is that UNR apps are working with connman though
[22:50] <davidm>  true for now
[22:51] <plars> started, have an overview testplan up
[22:51] <NCommander> found
[22:51] <plars> [link] http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Plans/ARM
[22:51] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-arm-karmic-subarches-in-debian-cd (ogra)
[22:51] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Plans/ARM
[22:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-subarches-in-debian-cd (ogra)
[22:51] <ogra> :)
[22:51] <ogra> drafting, will be written by monday latest
[22:51] <ogra> its very high prio
[22:52] <ogra> since marvell and freescale desktop both depend on it
[22:52] <lool> NCommander: That one isn't on the list?
[22:52] <ogra> (at least the images for these)
[22:52] <NCommander> lool, refresh
[22:52] <ogra> lool, reload
[22:52] <ogra> just added it
[22:52] <lool> Ah
[22:52] <NCommander> ogra, do you except any difficulty in implementation?
[22:52] <ogra> i never except difficulies *g*
[22:53] <lool> Marking as drafting then
[22:53] <lool> ogra: no wiki page?
[22:53] <ogra> but i dont expect any either
[22:53] <NCommander> er, oop
[22:53] <NCommander> *oops
[22:53] <ogra> lool, no, i'm writing it
[22:53] <NCommander> ogra, cool
[22:53] <lool> Should the ARM desktops depend on this spec?
[22:53] <ogra> lool, will just be a copy of what we do with ps3
[22:53] <ogra> lool, if we dont have separate image specs for them, yes
[22:54] <NCommander> Wait
[22:54] <NCommander> Won't we need separate squashfs's for the images
[22:54] <NCommander> wait, nm
[22:54] <ogra> no
[22:54] <NCommander> Yeah
[22:54] <NCommander> Just realized that was a dense question
[22:54] <ogra> only bootloader and kernel
[22:54] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-qa-karmic-unr  (plars)
[22:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-qa-karmic-unr  (plars)
[22:54] <lool> What about modules from the kernel?
[22:54] <ogra> hrm
[22:55] <plars> will be starting shortly, doing some research into what might change for this cycle
[22:55] <ogra> damned, do you always need to point out the obvious i missed
[22:55] <StevenK> plars: Start drafting, or implemnting?
[22:55] <lool> ogra: I think we need a dependency between the marvell and fsl images
[22:55] <lool> and this new spec
[22:55] <plars> StevenK: implementing, it's already drafted
[22:55] <StevenK> ogra: Different kernel implies different squashfs
[22:55] <lool> Because currently the FSL image is armel
[22:55] <ogra> lool, i'll try to find an idea for that modules stuff in the spec, else we'll need two squashfses
[22:56] <ogra> lool, it will become ubuntu-9.04-desktop-armel+iMX51.img
[22:56] <lool> ogra: By default, different subarches mean different squashfses
[22:56] <NCommander> We use two different squashfs's for powerpc and powerpc+ps3 last time I checked
[22:56] <lool> Yes
[22:56] <NCommander> ogra, iMX51 vs. imx51?
[22:56] <NCommander> the caps are ugly :-/
[22:56] <lool> ?
[22:56] <StevenK> NCommander: Two different systems ...
[22:56] <ogra> NCommander, doesnt matter
[22:56] <StevenK> The cdimage system is ... fun
[22:56] <lool> it's all lowercased, we don't need to discuss that
[22:56] <ogra> can also be imx51 i dont care
[22:56] <NCommander> StevenK, I know, I've run it :-P
[22:57]  * StevenK just uses antimony, it's more fun
[22:57] <NCommander> StevenK, the PS3 port requires kboot to get everything working, its a load of fun.
[22:57]  * GrueMaster has completely lost track of the current topic (again).
[22:57] <ogra> yeah
[22:57] <ogra> and more complex
[22:57] <StevenK> I knew there was a reason I ignored the PS3
[22:57] <lool> ogra: I'm a bit sceptical of filing a specs for that, it's tightened with the FSL and the marvell stuff IMO
[22:57] <NCommander> StevenK, and posioness
[22:57] <ogra> lool, right, the debian-cd one should suffice
[22:58] <plars> GrueMaster: current topic was mobile-karmic-qa-unr (and is done I think) but we're still dealing with spillover from the previous one
[22:58] <StevenK> GrueMaster: lool and ogra are still talking about the debian-cd armel spec
[22:58] <lool> It would have been nice to discuss this spec calmly if it impacts the two other specs
[22:58] <ogra> lool, though i'd like to overcome the need for separate squashfses just for modules, but thats karmic+1
[22:58] <lool> We're stressed with time trying to cover all specs, and we discover that one new one is superseding two others
[22:58] <StevenK> lool, ogra: Can you two discuss this offline, we're at 58 minutes ?
[22:58] <ogra> lool, want to review it once i've written it up
[22:58] <ogra> StevenK, ++
[22:59] <lool> ogra: Aboslutely, was about to offer that
[22:59] <ogra> oki
[22:59] <StevenK> NCommander: Next!
[22:59] <NCommander> I take it no one wants this to run over?
[22:59] <ogra> go go go
[22:59] <StevenK> Not really
[22:59] <davidm> iMX51 is correct
[22:59] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-arm-karmic-easy-redboot-management (ogra)
[22:59] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-easy-redboot-management (ogra)
[22:59] <StevenK> davidm: But iMX51 looks ugly
[22:59] <NCommander> +1 StevenK
[23:00] <NCommander> imx51 looks nice
[23:00] <davidm> StevenK, true but I did not name the SoC Freescale did
[23:00] <ogra> discussed it a bit with lool today .... and beyond that not sure we need to keep it in case we get commitment from FSL for u-boot
[23:00] <lool> The name of the kernel flavour is imx51 and subarches are lowercased and this is a bikeshed discussion
[23:00] <NCommander> We are almost to the point of having a new redboot in archive
[23:00] <StevenK> I want the bikeshed blue
[23:00] <NCommander> (yay backups of /home)
[23:01] <NCommander> I want the bikeshed dark green :-P
[23:01] <ogra> NCommander, but also u-boot ... though in unknown support state
[23:01] <NCommander> Well
[23:01] <ogra> and known bad quality
[23:01] <NCommander> We have an interesting problem with that as I will bring up at the end of the meeting
[23:01] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-arm-karmic-softboot-loader
[23:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-softboot-loader
[23:02] <NCommander> It's semi-packaged
[23:02] <ogra> how does that work without kexec support ?
[23:02] <NCommander> ogra, works great on ia64
[23:02]  * NCommander runs
[23:02] <ogra> you noticed there is an arm in the name ? :)
[23:02] <StevenK> Wow, so it's better than the kernel?
[23:03] <NCommander> StevenK, yeah
[23:03] <ogra> move or say something
[23:03] <NCommander> But I've run into ... unforeseen difficulties with kexecboot, I need to discuss with upstream, and I hope to grab lool next week to go over it. I don't expect too much progress in the coming week though w/ work to add FSL
[23:03] <NCommander> ogra, :-P
[23:04] <lool> Don't expect to grab me before a week though
[23:04] <NCommander> [topic]mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting
[23:04] <MootBot> New Topic: mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting
[23:04] <NCommander> lool, its low priority so whenever you get a chance
[23:04] <NCommander> ^- plars
[23:04] <plars> I have a list of apps to target, did some proof of concept on how I want to make the tests
[23:04] <plars> about to start going through the apps and writing the individual tests
[23:05] <NCommander> [topic]   	 mobile-unr-karmic-wubi (StevenK)
[23:05] <MootBot> New Topic:    	 mobile-unr-karmic-wubi (StevenK)
[23:05]  * ogra wants mobile-unr-karmic-wubi-arm
[23:05]  * NCommander notes you made that quip last week
[23:06] <ogra> yeah, its my running gag to bridge the time until StevenK says something :P
[23:06] <lool> StevenK: poke
[23:06] <StevenK> Waiting on image testing
[23:06] <StevenK> Sorry, was distracted by my browser
[23:07] <StevenK> And cdimage.u.c is slow :-(
[23:07] <ogra> NCommander, ?
[23:07] <NCommander> [topic] karmic-lsb-compliance-testing (GrueMaster)
[23:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  karmic-lsb-compliance-testing (GrueMaster)
[23:07] <GrueMaster> WIP
[23:07] <GrueMaster> Waiting on Alpha 3 for next phase of tests.
[23:08] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-unr-karmic-application-res (paulliu)
[23:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-unr-karmic-application-res (paulliu)
[23:08] <StevenK> Haha, "blocked on Alpha 3"
[23:08] <paulliu> Reviewing by lool currently.
[23:08] <lool> reviewed and asked davidm for approval
[23:08] <paulliu> And some patches are refining.
[23:08] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-arm-karmic-offline-installer-gui (ogra)
[23:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-arm-karmic-offline-installer-gui (ogra)
[23:08] <lool> Oh I can change its state now
[23:08] <ogra> WIP
[23:08] <NCommander> WIP?
[23:09] <ogra> work ... in ... progress
[23:09] <NCommander> [topic]   	 mobile-karmic-arm-cloud-builds (lool)
[23:09] <MootBot> New Topic:    	 mobile-karmic-arm-cloud-builds (lool)
[23:09] <ogra> rootstock project was created on LP ...
[23:09] <lool> davidm: I've properly set mobile-unr-karmic-application-res to pending approval by you; I thought I couldn't but I was probably logged out
[23:09] <lool> No progress on mobile-karmic-arm-cloud-builds, other business this week
[23:09] <StevenK> lool: Yeah, I was logged out when I tried to retry a build, I think LP forced everyone off
[23:10] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling (ogra)
[23:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-karmic-general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling (ogra)
[23:10] <ogra> drafting ... other business etc
[23:10] <NCommander> [topic]   	 mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop (dyfet)
[23:10] <MootBot> New Topic:    	 mobile-karmic-lxde-ubuntu-desktop (dyfet)
[23:10] <davidm> lool, I think something has been going on with LP today
[23:11] <ogra> last night already
[23:11] <davidm> mobile-unr-karmic-application-res approved
[23:11] <dyfet_> I am in the process of interesting the lubuntu community in taking over this spec
[23:11] <ogra> they flushed the user DB afaik
[23:11] <ogra> or session DB
[23:11] <StevenK> The latter
[23:11] <NCommander> [topic]   	 mobile-unr-karmic-applications (GrueMaster)
[23:11] <MootBot> New Topic:    	 mobile-unr-karmic-applications (GrueMaster)
[23:11] <StevenK> The former would be much much worse
[23:11] <GrueMaster> Waiting on info from DX, OEM
[23:11] <ogra> yeah, was the latter
[23:12] <StevenK> Awwww.
[23:12]  * StevenK was hoping -seeds gets mentioned
[23:12] <NCommander> StevenK, ;-)
[23:12] <lool> GrueMaster: Who are you in contact with?
[23:12] <NCommander> [topic] Any other business
[23:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
[23:12] <lool> GrueMaster: Do we need to escalate this?
[23:12] <GrueMaster> Anmar, pete, neil.
[23:13] <GrueMaster> I've sent them all emails, and subscribed them to the spec.
[23:13] <lool> GrueMaster: I think you should ask davidm to raise to them that you're blocked on their input
[23:13] <lool> davidm: ^
[23:13] <GrueMaster> Already did.
[23:13] <davidm> GrueMaster, did you phone them>
[23:13] <davidm> GrueMaster, did you phone them? that is
[23:14] <davidm> If not please phone them on Monday
[23:14] <GrueMaster> Not yet.  Plan is to poke them first online.  I'll do that Monday after the holiday.
[23:14] <plars> Anyone have any additional issues with the BugWorkflow as is currently documented?  Any suggestions or changes?
[23:14] <plars> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/BugWorkflow
[23:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/BugWorkflow
[23:14] <NCommander> I brought this up in passing
[23:15] <NCommander> but redboot is currently being troublesome, but we should have a new version for the TO2 in archive this weekend.
[23:15] <lool> plars: Should it be split in two pages for each type of bugs?
[23:15] <lool> I'm happy with it otherwise
[23:15]  * ogra wouldnt split it
[23:15] <plars> lool: it doesn't seem to be burdensome as it is right now, but if it grows out of control, I had considered that
[23:16] <ogra> it reflects the two areas we mostly work in atm
[23:16] <NCommander> I think if we'r egoing to go to uboot for SL, we'll have to discuss this and maybe bring up a spec to track that
[23:16]  * StevenK adds -translations to the list so it can get covered next week
[23:16] <lool> plars: I had in mind it would keep UNR stuff in the UNR namespace and the ARM stuff in its own; they don't really relate except we care for the two of them in the mobile team
[23:16] <ogra> NCommander, that totally depends on commitment we get
[23:17] <lool> Anyway, this is minor I don't care strongly
[23:17] <ogra> which we dont have yet
[23:17] <NCommander> Ok
[23:17] <lool> NCommander: do not push redboot built with different toolchain
[23:17] <lool> yet
[23:17] <NCommander> lool, ?
[23:17] <NCommander> lool, ok
[23:17] <lool> First we need to talk to FSL and clarify whether uboot will be good enough
[23:17]  * NCommander can't either
[23:17] <lool> It's not yet good enough for sure
[23:18] <ogra> lool, well, currently its in the MobileTeam namespace :)
[23:18] <lool> No USB, no SD/MMC, no SATA, no Ethernet,,
[23:18] <lool> Ok.  anything else to discuss?
[23:18] <plars> lool: I see your point, it probably is best to associate it with UNR/ARM rather than with the team
[23:19] <lool> plars: This can be moved later and is trivial though; it's fine like that for now don't worry about it
[23:19] <plars> ok
[23:19] <ogra> ++
[23:19] <lool> Ok bye all
[23:19]  * ogra guesses we'Re done
[23:19] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[23:19] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:19.
[23:19] <ogra> lool, safe flight
[23:19]  * NCommander goes to bed
[23:19] <lool> thx
[23:19] <StevenK> \o/
[23:19] <NCommander> lool, good luck
[23:20]  * GrueMaster runs to see who is burring the house down.
[23:41] <Claudinux> *penso che