[03:08] <TheMuso> Ok that was weird. My whole session just died on me with no warning.
[03:08] <TheMuso> Using new gdm.
[06:54] <hyperair> huh the new gdm doesn't allow me to shutdown any more.
[07:04] <TheMuso> hyperair: Works for me.
[07:07] <TheMuso> However, the touchpad on my notebook is not working, this after a fresh install from a daily.
[07:14] <pitti> Good morning
[07:50] <hyperair> my touchpad still works
[08:14] <didrocks> morning o/
[08:29] <crevette> salit didrocks
[08:29] <crevette> salut
[08:38] <pitti> hey didrocks, morning crevette
[08:52] <asac> morning
[08:55] <didrocks> plop crevette, morning pitti
[08:56] <didrocks> hey asac
[08:57] <asac> hi didrocks
[08:58] <pitti> hey asac
[08:59] <crevette> hello pitti
[09:01] <asac> hmm launchpad seems to forget that i am logged in recently
[09:05] <didrocks> asac: pitti and I have the same trouble those days
[09:08] <asac> good ;)
[09:37] <pitti> asac: FSVO "good"
[09:38] <pitti> gvfs (1.3.1-0ubuntu3) UNRELEASED; urgency=low
[09:38] <pitti>   The "bye-bye, hal!" release.
[09:38] <pitti> \o/
[09:39] <pitti> my long nights of porting work weren't in vain
[09:39] <rickspencer3> !
[09:39] <rickspencer3> congrats pitti
[09:40] <pitti> hey rickspencer3, unusual time :)
[09:40] <pitti> how's the summit?
[09:40] <rickspencer3> heh
[09:40] <rickspencer3> I slept late today, 8:30am!
[09:40] <pitti> not surprising
[09:40] <rickspencer3> summit really starts tonight
[09:41] <rickspencer3> with our party!
[09:41] <rickspencer3> today, me = get quickly demo working + get quickly package working + update tutorial :o
[09:41] <pitti> shouldn't the party be at the _end_ of the work? :-)
[09:41] <pitti> rickspencer3: have gnome-shell running already?
[09:41] <rickspencer3> heh
[09:42] <pitti> didrocks: BTW, seeems I still need the -dev
[09:42] <rickspencer3> I brought my eee running Jaunty
[09:42] <rickspencer3> so no gnome shell for me, at least until after my talk on Sunday
[09:42] <rickspencer3> then maybe it's time to upgrade to Karmic
[09:43] <didrocks> pitti: really? let me see again
[09:43] <didrocks> (finishing a email to rickspencer3 first ;))
[09:43] <didrocks> an*
[09:43] <rickspencer3> heh
[09:43] <pitti> didrocks: didn't try this morning yet, though; don't worry, low urgency
[10:09] <asac> Riddell: msg ;)
[10:11] <asac> pitti: so on hal: we wont get rid of hal in NM 0.7.2 ... the udev patch is just too intrusive. means: unless we ship a cracky 0.8 snapshot we will need to wait one cycle to demote hal.
[10:11] <asac> am i supposed to add that to that wiki page?
[10:12] <pitti> asac: hm, a pity
[10:12] <pitti> asac: demoting is not my primary concern
[10:12] <pitti> it's shipping/installing hal by default
[10:12] <pitti> it takes boot time, maintenance, etc.
[10:12] <pitti> I guess backporting http://cgit.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/commit/?id=c9067d8fedf6f6f2d530fd68bbfca7ce68638d38 would be quite a challenge, indeed
[10:12] <asac> hmm
[10:13] <pitti> asac: if we need it still, so be it
[10:13] <pitti> we still have all the other bits ported already, so the structural changes in LL won't be so many
[10:14] <asac> not sure how much folks would hate me for shipping a 0.8 pre snapshot ... its quite stable for me, but you know how it is: if its a snapshot and its the driver they wine for ages that its NM fault and how bad we are ;)
[10:14] <asac> whine
[10:14] <asac> otoh, it would help to flash out bugs for LTS
[10:15] <pitti> asac: I think it's your call, as the NM expert, but I'd advise you to consider whether it's wise to do that major step in LL
[10:15] <pitti> Karmic will be crackful either way, but I'd like the intrusive changes to be in Karmic, not in LL
[10:15] <asac> i definitly would need to talk to dan
[10:15] <asac> pitti: i see that
[10:16] <pitti> asac: don't let the hal issue alone drive that decision only, of course :)
[10:16] <asac> its just that we have some quite challenging todos for 0.8 so we hoped to do a 0.7.2 this cycle .... but well ;)
[10:16] <asac> pitti: sure not.
[10:16] <pitti> if 0.8 is just not ready yet, then so be it
[10:16] <asac> 0.8 is also modemmanager based
[10:16] <asac> and modemmanager is now also migrated to udev (almost completely)
[10:17] <asac> i will think about it ;)
[10:17] <asac> and talk to dan. if we go for this, we probably want it in asap ... so we can back it out if there are too many problems i cannot fix
[10:18] <pitti> right
[10:18] <asac> stay tuned ;)
[10:18] <pitti> and to collect the problems in the first place
[10:18] <asac> pitti: so is this info needed on the dehalificatio nwiki?
[10:18] <pitti> asac: do you have this in a PPA by any chance?
[10:18] <pitti> asac: I just changed it to "no upstream release yet"
[10:18] <asac> pitti: yes. i have a trunk PPA ... but its the first package round i havent even tested on my own yet ;)
[10:18] <pitti> asac: feel free to add it there, of course
[10:19] <asac> https://edge.launchpad.net/~network-manager/+archive/trunk
[10:19] <pitti> meh, CDs still don't build
[10:19]  * pitti pokes
[10:19] <asac> i will try to get bugabundo or someone else eager on it to get some initial testing ;)
[10:20] <pitti> I'm happy to help testing (eth/iwl3945/wpa2, boring and very common :) )
[10:20] <pitti> asac: btw, does 0.8 switch from iw to cfg80211 already?
[10:20] <asac> yeah. but only once i know it works ;)
[10:21] <asac> pitti: NM uses wpasupplicant ... its not doing any wireless on its own
[10:21] <pitti> ah, so that won't be updated
[10:21] <asac> we are using wext driver
[10:22] <asac> pitti: well ... i see that wpa_supplicant has nl80211 driver;)
[10:22] <asac> we could give that a shoot
[10:22] <asac> though that would probably need to be a driver specific hack
[10:22] <pitti> ah, "wext" sounds like "iw", yes
[10:22] <asac> e.g. for intel, use nl80211 ... otherwise wxec
[10:22] <pitti> very few drivers support cfg80211 yet, though
[10:22] <asac> i think all in mainline kernel
[10:22] <asac> except the old ones like ipw2x00
[10:23] <asac> but no clue how mature ;)
[10:25] <tjaalton> why does the gnome session reset my keymap to us?
[10:26] <tjaalton> works in gdm
[10:26] <asac> it did that for me too
[10:26] <asac> also while upgrading it locked the screen and i had to log-in
[10:26] <tjaalton> perhaps it's the new gdm doing tricks?
[10:27] <tjaalton> falling back to system defaults from the capplet restores the correct one
[10:27] <tjaalton> but only for the running session
[10:28] <asac> bug 395057
[10:29] <asac> *sigh*
[10:29] <asac> tjaalton: i thought it was gdm problem yes
[10:29] <asac> also thought, lets wait if its transitional ;)
[10:30] <tjaalton> yeah, I'll check back after the weekend :)
[10:33] <rickspencer3> ArneGoetje: asac: bryce: ccheney: kenvandine: pitti: Riddell: TheMuso: gentle reminder that date has changed for expense reports being due (now need to be signed off by the 5th ... so get them to me tomorrow if you have any outstanding expenses)
[10:38]  * ajmitch really shouldn't try & run karmic on here, gdm is being nasty to me again
[10:39] <pitti> ajmitch: --verbose?
[10:39] <ajmitch> is there a bug open about not being able to start the gdm greeter?
[10:39] <pitti> I doubt it, we just switched to it yesterday in karmic
[10:39] <ajmitch> ok :)
[10:39] <pitti> a few of us have had it running for some weeks before, though
[10:40] <pitti> ajmitch: what does it say?
[10:40]  * ajmitch only just upgraded after having the X session die 3 times already this evening
[10:40] <ajmitch> one sec
[10:40] <rickspencer3> someone mentioned to me that an upload yesterday *did* break gdm
[10:40] <ajmitch> "Cannot start the greeter application, you will not be able to login"
[10:40] <pitti> it was probably "gdm" :)
[10:40] <asac> rickspencer3: thanks for the update
[10:41] <ajmitch>  /var/log/syslog has a single line about not being able to start it
[10:41]  * ajmitch checks to see if he has a non-default config
[10:41] <bryce> rickspencer3, all mine are in
[10:41] <pitti> ajmitch: anything helpful in /var/log/gdm/:0-greeter.log ?
[10:41] <pitti> ajmitch: (beware: f***ed permissions, needs root)
[10:41]  * rickspencer3 takes his poor grasp of Spanish to explore Las Palmas before DS starts
[10:41] <asac> have fun
[10:42] <pitti> rickspencer3: "Dos cervesas, por favor", and "gracias" will get you quite far :-P
[10:42] <rickspencer3> dns stopped resolving in the hotel, so I'm taking that as a sign
[10:42] <ajmitch> pitti: I have no such log
[10:42] <pitti> hah
[10:42] <rickspencer3-afk> pitti: donde esta la playa?
[10:43] <ajmitch> I don't have an upgraded X yet, I was still upgrading the rest of things :)
[10:43] <pitti> ajmitch: the same source package should have worked in jaunty as well, hmm
[10:43] <ajmitch> yeah, what can I turn on to get more debugging info?
[10:44]  * pitti is not really with new gdm yet either, hang on
[10:44] <pitti> ajmitch: do you have a non-empty /etc/gdm/custom.conf ?
[10:45] <ajmitch> it exists but the sections such as [chooser] are empty
[10:45] <pitti> right, here too
[10:45] <ajmitch> I also have gdm.conf-custom with similar sections
[10:45] <pitti> ajmitch: what's in /var/log/gdm?
[10:45] <ajmitch> hm, I have a :1-greeter.log in there
[10:46] <pitti> hm, no :0? weird
[10:46] <pitti> and nothing else?
[10:46] <pitti> it should also have an Xorg log
[10:46] <ajmitch> one sec, I may be able to pastebinit :)
[10:47] <ajmitch> http://pastebin.com/f6165ae1b
[10:47]  * ajmitch should probably switch to the laptop which has working X still
[10:48] <pitti> ajmitch: so, perhaps you could do:
[10:48] <pitti> - stop gdm
[10:48] <pitti> - purge all logs
[10:48] <pitti> -start gdm
[10:48] <pitti> - paste the created logs?
[10:48] <ajmitch> sure, can try that
[10:48] <ajmitch> too used to stopping apache2, almost killed that off instead
[10:49] <geser> ajmitch: I had the same problem yesterday when I updated gdm. it went away after a reboot
[10:50] <ajmitch> great to know :)
[10:50] <ajmitch> I have a bit more to upgrade (kernel, X) before I can do a reboot
[10:51] <ajmitch> I've stopped gdm, but X is still running with that greeter error
[10:51] <ajmitch> it *looks* like there's an old gdm process from about 2 months ago still running
[10:52] <ajmitch> I'll kill that one & restart gdm
[10:54] <hyperair> murderer!
[10:55] <ajmitch> ok, apart from having a completly white desktop with nothing visible but a mouse cursor, I'm in :)
[10:55] <ajmitch> but that's a minor aesthetic detail, right?
[10:55] <pitti> ajmitch: ah, that would be it
[10:55] <pitti> ajmitch: it's the new karmic theme
[10:55] <pitti> very clean and fresh
[10:56] <pitti> much less disturbing than all this gnome crap
[10:56] <pitti> ajmitch: if you upgraded to karmic and didn't reboot for 2 months, then you should have much worse problems, though :)
[10:58] <ajmitch> 56 days, so I still have about 5 days to go before I have problems, right? ;)
[10:59] <ajmitch> problem was, I had X randomly dying in the middle of me doing stuff, such as installing upgrades in synaptic
[11:00] <ajmitch> nothing in syslog to indicate segfaults that I could see
[11:00] <bryce> ajmitch, X crash or freeze?
[11:01] <ajmitch> bryce: I wasn't sure if it was X or gdm that was crashing, but it wasn't a freeze
[11:01] <ajmitch> and this is with a jaunty X server & nvidia driver
[11:01]  * ajmitch is just upgrading those to karmic versions now
[11:02] <bryce> nvidia *shudder*
[11:02] <ajmitch> you aren't a fan of nvidia? :)
[11:02] <pitti> bryce: for bug 377090, is the kernel update enough, or does it need more userspace fixes?
[11:03] <bryce> pitti, kernel ought to be enough
[11:03] <pitti> bryce: the upstream bug just has a kernel fix
[11:03] <pitti> but that bug has mesa, x11proto, etc. tasks
[11:03] <bryce> ajmitch, the nvidia people I like, but the driver itself, notsomuch
[11:03] <pitti> bryce: so shall we close it and see if anyone yells "still there"?
[11:04] <bryce> pitti, that sounds fine
[11:04] <pitti> I sent a call for testing yesterday, but no reply
[11:04] <ajmitch> bryce: well I'm about to be brave & try the 185 driver on 2.6.31
[11:04] <pitti> bryce: ok, "proactive bug cleaning" then :)
[11:04] <bryce> ajmitch, bravo
[11:04] <bryce> pitti, good
[11:04] <pitti> bryce: thanks
[11:04] <pitti> bryce: btw, nice "bug storm" blog posts
[11:05] <pitti> well, "nice" -> "good read"
[11:05]  * ajmitch just hopes that the little things like mdadm & lvm2 still work on reboot
[11:09] <bryce> pitti, thanks
[11:09] <pitti> bug 341898 seems fixed as well, closing
[11:09] <didrocks> pitti: libmutter0*-0ubuntu3 depends anymore on libclutter-dev. Is it failing when launching it? (I only have a VirtualBox at work, so, no 3D acceleration, but mutter seems to start and run)
[11:10] <bryce> pitti, yeah I hope it gives enough food for thought to generate some solutions to this specific problem.
[11:10] <pitti> didrocks: is it in the PPA now?
[11:10] <pitti> didrocks: I dist-upgraded/started g-s last night, it still failed without -dev
[11:10] <didrocks> pitti: apt-cache policy libmutter0 ?
[11:10] <pitti> bryce: I like the general idea of karma restrictions, but the "lock out upstream" is a problem
[11:10] <pitti> didrocks: 2.27.0~git090630-0ubuntu3
[11:11] <pitti> didrocks: it might have been upgraded this morning; give me some minutes, I'll try it again soon
[11:11] <didrocks> pitti: ok, you have the last verion. What error message do you have?
[11:11] <pitti> yay CDs! http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/20090703.3/
[11:11] <didrocks> verrsion*
[11:11] <pitti> now with new gdm
[11:11] <bryce> pitti, yeah me too, but one of the commenters to my post had a tweak that I think might solve that in a really nice way
[11:11] <pitti> bryce: oh?
[11:11] <bryce> yay dailies
[11:11] <superm1> pitti, bug 341898's upstream bug was only fixed for -vesa I thought
[11:12] <superm1> at least no one has commented otherwise for -ATI
[11:12] <pitti> superm1: oh, you yourself closed the upstream one, saying that this mesa commit fixed it?
[11:12] <pitti> so should it be reopened upstream against mesa then?
[11:12] <superm1> yeah it should.  the discussion about -ATI headed with upstream disagreeing and saying it's a QT bug and nothing happening
[11:13] <bryce> pitti, basically, couple restrictions with length-of-post, so it only kicks in for low karma users if the post-length is small.
[11:13] <superm1> mythtv 0.22 should be coming out during the karmic cycle though using QT4, and I believe it's a noop then at least
[11:13] <pitti> ah
[11:13] <pitti> superm1: something to put into my release status report then
[11:13] <bryce> we can expect most upstream people who comment will make > 1 sentence reply
[11:13] <superm1> i'm still tracking and watching for some upstream related changes to mesa and QT3 though
[11:14] <superm1> sorry, i probably should have made that clearer somewhere
[11:14] <pitti> so if it's wontfix for radeon in mesa, and fixed for other drivers, should the mesa task be closed?
[11:14] <ajmitch> bryce: so not based on whitelisting from teams or anything complex?
[11:15] <superm1> well upstream mythtv agrees that it's not a QT bug, so it's hard to say whose really right here
[11:15] <superm1> a mesa changeset introduced it, and no one has been able to identify what about QT would be causing such bug
[11:15] <bryce> ajmitch, right.
[11:16] <bryce> ajmitch, although presumably anyone who joins a team will have more than the tiny required karma already
[11:16] <ajmitch> bryce: I'm just thinking of things like sync sponsoring, where the only comment is something like "+1" or "ACK"
[11:16]  * ajmitch had very little karma until recently :)
[11:17] <bryce> ajmitch, you seem to have 4911 karma, well >> than 50.  :-)
[11:17] <ajmitch> yes, it's amazing how a few uploads increased my karma
[11:19] <bryce> yeah it's been my experience that anyone who has done >anything< for ubuntu is way, way more worthwhile to listen to than anyone with <50 karma.
[11:21] <pitti> Riddell: so you said that bug 339313 is basically fixed in karmic; do you still want to keep it open for remaining corner cases, or should they get new bug reports?
[11:22] <Riddell> pitti: keep it open I think
[11:22] <geser> why do I need to reset my keyboard layout everytime I login to gnome? I see this behaviour after the gdm update
[11:22] <pitti> Riddell: ok; there was no recent update, so I wondered about the status of it (for release team meeting)
[11:23] <pitti> geser: you shouldn't need to; does gdm show the correct layout for you?
[11:23] <geser> pitti: where should I see it? as I've auto-login activated
[11:24] <pitti> geser: (I'm saying that it sounds like a bug)
[11:24] <pitti> geser: ah, then you won't see the greeter indeed
[11:24] <pitti> geser: I heared other complaints; can you please file a bug and mark it regression-potential and subscribe me?
[11:25] <pitti> Riddell: could you please update the bug status to say what's still left?
[11:25] <geser> pitti: against gdm?
[11:25] <pitti> geser: yes
[11:28] <Laney> has there been a change in mounting behaviour? I just restarted and am now being asked for a password to mount my windows partition on login
[11:28] <Laney> this partition was never automounted before
[11:28] <pitti> Laney: it's a bug
[11:29] <pitti> on my list
[11:29] <Laney> is it filed?
[11:29] <Laney> alright
[11:29] <pitti> we shouldn't automount internal partitions
[11:29] <pitti> Laney: not sure whether it's in LP
[11:29] <pitti> Laney: but I even think that my gvfs upload from this morning fixed it
[11:29] <Laney> and I see no option to shutdown on fusa either, is that another one?
[11:29] <didrocks> pitti, ajmitch : I confirm the upgrade mess too (gdm-greeter won't spawn), and rebooting is mandatory
[11:30] <pitti> didrocks: yes, see gdm changelog; known upgrade issue
[11:30] <pitti> there's really no good way to upgrade this online
[11:30] <didrocks> and switching to an awful qwerty keyboard :)
[11:30] <pitti> US layout is the only sensible thing for a programmer
[11:30] <ajmitch> didrocks: in my case it appears that there was a stale gdm process hanging around, which a reboot would of course kill
[11:30] <pitti> didrocks: sounds like geser's bug
[11:30] <ajmitch> killing that let me restart gdm & login
[11:31] <didrocks> pitti: right, I will confirme his bug
[11:31]  * ajmitch is just looking at open bugs now
[11:31] <didrocks> ajmitch: I was actually on a virtualbox and ttyx don't spawn, so, I'm unable to check of another X process running :/
[11:31] <Laney> oh, the fusa changes just haven't been done yet
[11:31] <ajmitch> ah, this was on my main development machine, nothing critical ;)
[11:32] <didrocks> ^^
[11:32] <didrocks> bbl
[11:32] <ajmitch> Laney: ubuntu-desktop not installable still?
[11:32] <Laney> ajmitch: huh, don't know about that one
[11:34] <geser> does somebody else witness spontanous gnome logouts? I happened the second time for me today :( I see a black screen and when the picture comes back I get an fresh gnome
[11:34] <Keybuk> These windows do not support "save current setup": Login window
[11:34] <ajmitch> geser: yes,  4 times tonight
[11:34] <ajmitch> after that I'd installed a new gdm (2.26)
[11:35] <Keybuk> and my keyboard reverted back to US Layout *again*
[11:37]  * ajmitch has heard that complaint a few times in here this evening
[11:39] <Laney> I saw the save current setup thing
[11:39] <Laney> (directly after login)
[11:40] <geser> pitti: bug #395103
[11:41] <pitti> geser: thanks, I'll put it on the "OMGkarmic!" bug list
[11:41] <pitti> geser: can you please attach your xorg.conf for completeness?
[11:45] <geser> attached
[11:49] <geser> I know that fusa doesn't work with the new gdm yet but shouldn't I've a (menu) option for shutdown/reboot somewhere? I can only logout
[11:51] <pitti> geser: it's back in the system menu for now
[11:52] <geser> not for me: I've only Preferences, Administration, Help and Support, About Gnome there
[11:53] <geser> I've a "User Switch Applet" in my panel with "Lock Screen" and "Log Out"
[11:54] <geser> bug #43299 seems to be back with the new gdm, should I reopen it or better file a new bug?
[11:56] <pitti> geser: please reopen it (seb and I talked about it, known issue, but let's track it)
[11:56] <Laney> geser: same for me too (shutdown stuff)
[11:57] <pitti> hm, seb said that he reverted teh gnome-panel patch, let me check
[11:57] <pitti> argh, failed to build
[11:58] <pitti> probably autoconfiscation, will fix now
[11:58] <Laney> such fun
[11:59] <pitti> hah, seems seb already committed it to bzr, and then forgot to upload, or something
[11:59] <pitti> done
[11:59] <pitti> thanks for pointing out
[12:02] <Laney> pitti: do you know when you'll be able to look at the MIR for pngquant?
[12:04] <geser> pitti: with hal going away who should set the ACL for my smart-card-reader now? where should I move the changes from bug 57755 to?
[12:04] <pitti> geser: the smartcard stuff was rejected upstream in hal as well :( hang ong
[12:06] <pitti> geser: I committed it upstream, and Danny reverted it (http://cgit.freedesktop.org/hal/commit/?id=1579ccee0c25606c39e831b98c129c54ec3894ae), saying that it was handled in the opensc pacakge
[12:06] <pitti> so that should ship the udev rules
[12:07] <pitti> geser: it's still a nasty hack, though
[12:08] <pitti> (raw device access by user space processes)
[12:08] <pitti> so this should probably be discussed in http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19663 and reopened
[12:09] <pitti> whoops, no, not there, but in opensc
[12:09] <pitti> Laney: looking
[12:09] <Laney> cool beans
[12:11] <pitti> Laney: ah, I remember; promoted
[12:11] <Laney> thanks muchly
[12:11] <pitti> do we need to add that b-dep to tomboy now, or is it already?
[12:11] <geser> tomboy is in depwait on pngquant
[12:11] <Laney> it's already depwait on it
[12:12] <pitti> yay
[12:15] <geser> pitti: are .fdi files still used in a hal-free world?
[12:16] <pitti> geser: no, they are hal specific
[12:16] <pitti> they were/are being converted to udev rules, or application specific data files
[12:19] <geser> so are we back where it started (udev rules)? part of the problem was to find the correct package to ship the udev rules as gnupg, gnupg2 and libccid need that rules but they don't have a common dependency
[12:21] <geser> it isn't possible to limit access to specific users just with udev rules without introducing new groups, is it?
[12:22] <pitti> geser: you can also chmod them to 666
[12:22] <pitti> or mark them for automatic ACLs
[12:22] <pitti> (similar to hal)
[12:23] <geser> automatic ACLs sounds fine. who sets them?
[12:24] <pitti> application/hardwrae specific packaes (such as libgphoto2 or libsane) mark the devices
[12:24] <pitti> e. g. /lib/udev/rules.d/40-libgphoto2-2.rules
[12:24] <pitti> and then udev's ACL mechanism sets the ACLs (/lib/udev/rules.d/70-acl.rules)
[12:28] <geser> seems interesting
[12:29] <pitti> geser: but certainly gnupg, gnupg2, and libccid don't all implement their own smartcard support, but use some kind of library?
[12:29] <geser> so it looks like I need a udev rules file which sets ACL_MANAGE for the correct device
[12:30] <pitti> if they do implement them, they need to ship separrate rules, since probably they also have differing sets of supported cards?
[12:30] <pitti> geser: please don't directly set ACL_MANAGE, set ID_SMARTCARD_READER="1"
[12:30] <geser> pitti: both gnupg and gnupg2 have native support to access the SCM smart card reader, they don't need any library for it
[12:30] <pitti> then we can commit the ACL management for those to udev directly
[12:31] <pitti> (ugh bad design)
[12:31] <pitti> then they'd need to ship their own rules, too
[12:33] <geser> ah, the pieces move slowly together
[12:33] <geser> does udev-acl need any additional configuration files?
[12:34] <pitti> but ideally they wouldn't copy all that SC code, but put it into a proper library
[12:34] <pitti> geser: no, it just works
[12:34] <pitti> geser: could you quickly hop into #udev?
[12:35] <geser> sure
[13:58] <asac> so for gtk git, PKG_CONFIG_PATH isnt enough to build against a newer glib installed at a non-standard place anymore ... one also needs to set LD_LIBRARY_PATH
[13:58]  * asac wonders when that started
[14:00] <ArneGoetje> rickspencer3: already done. :)
[14:56] <jcastro> rickspencer31: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/21/gimp-vs-fspot-in-ubuntu/
[14:57] <rickspencer31> dang it, looks like those discovered my true evil intention :/
[15:00] <rickspencer31> pitti: ^^^
[15:02] <rickspencer31> according to this article, I want to push the gimp off the CD as part of my pro-Microsoft agenda, a diabolical plan to thwart FOSS software by promoting Mono
[15:03] <pitti> I _knew_ it!!!111!!
[15:03]  * rickspencer31 invests in tinfoil
[15:04] <pitti> well, I very much like to rescue gimp itself
[15:04] <pitti> I'd rather drop the help
[15:04] <rickspencer31> meh
[15:05] <rickspencer31> I'd like to add cropping and red-eye removal to eog in any case
[15:05] <pitti> yeah
[15:05] <rickspencer31> I don't think there's much value to having gimp in the default install, but not too much harm either
[15:05] <pitti> well, f-spot and me have a long-standing mutual hatred relationship
[15:05] <rickspencer31> except that it's not mono based
[15:05] <pitti> but it's not at all related to programming languages ;)
[15:05] <rickspencer31> f-spot is for photo *management*, it's a totally different scenario than eog or gimp
[15:06] <pitti> new tomboy just saved us 1.1 MB \o/
[15:06] <didrocks> +1
[15:06] <rickspencer31> imnsho
[15:06] <rickspencer31> sweet
[15:06] <rickspencer31> didrocks: perhaps we should change quickly to create a mono project instead?
[15:06]  * rickspencer31 ducks
[15:07]  * didrocks is creating mono-project template ;)
[15:07] <rickspencer31> shouldn
[15:07] <rickspencer31> t quickly itself be mono instead of python
[15:07]  * rickspencer31 files bug to remove python from distro
[15:07] <pitti> rickspencer31: I agree, that's why I wouldn't like to compare f-spot and gimp, or say that one obsoletes the other
[15:07] <didrocks> quickly evil-rickspencer31 will remove all non-mono application from your desktop :)
[15:07] <geser> rickspencer31: you mean replace python with ironpython?
[15:07] <didrocks> rickspencer31: oh, good idea ;)
[15:08] <evil-rick> mhwhahaha
[15:08] <didrocks> :)
[15:08]  * pitti cranks a new daily CD, this one should work much better
[15:08] <rickspencer3> didrocks: https://edge.launchpad.net/quickly
[15:08] <rickspencer3> I updated the page a little
[15:09] <pitti> I unbroke CDs this morning and tested today's, works reasonably
[15:09] <didrocks> rickspencer3: nice. This should go to "quickly start" command also
[15:09] <pitti> I fixed gnome-panel and casper, so it should do well now
[15:09] <didrocks> I will do it tonight
[15:09]  * rickspencer3 pastes didrocks email into wiki.ubuntu.com/Quickly
[15:09] <rickspencer3> what is "start"?
[15:10] <didrocks> rickspencer3: read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Quickly when you will have paste it :)
[15:11] <didrocks> rickspencer3: "$ quickly start      (NEW one! show some notes about How-to start)"
[15:11] <rickspencer3> get-started perhaps?
[15:11] <rickspencer3> $quickly get-started
[15:11] <rickspencer3> ?
[15:11] <didrocks> rickspencer3: better, yes. Let me change it
[15:12] <rickspencer3> didrocks: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Quickly, btw
[15:14] <didrocks> rickspencer3: get-started will not be possible (no dash in python function)
[15:14] <rickspencer3> lol
[15:15] <rickspencer3> getstarted
[15:15] <rickspencer3> or get_started ?
[15:15] <didrocks> I prefer "getstarted"
[15:20] <mdz> hello from Gran Canaria
[15:20] <didrocks> rickspencer3: new revision pushed and https://edge.launchpad.net/quickly changed slightely
[15:21] <didrocks> hey mdz
[15:22]  * pitti waves to mdz
[15:26] <james_w> didrocks: bzr has code to rewrite "_" to "-" in command names
[15:27] <james_w> well, it's just a .replace(), but you could do the same :-)
[15:27] <didrocks> james_w: yes, maybe I can do that: get - command name and change them inside the code to call the _ function
[15:27] <didrocks> but I'm not a big fan of those-kind-of-command-name
[15:29] <james_w> ah, you use an "if" statement, I see that it's not as easy
[15:35] <didrocks> james_w: that's my case in command line args processing. Well, will see later :)
[15:36] <james_w> :-)
[15:47] <pitti> kenvandine: hm, libempathy-gtk24 pulls in geoclue
[15:48] <pitti> which pulls in glib1.2 (!)
[15:48] <pitti> I think that's just a wrong build-dep
[15:48] <pitti> but still, not sure whether we want/need this right now
[16:49] <pitti> Riddell: Kubuntu CDs look pretty good right now size-wise; do you plan to add large new stuff during karmic?
[16:49] <pitti> Riddell: or could we use that space for langpacks towards the release?
[17:01] <chrisccoulson> is ubuntu-system-service only for changing default gconf values?
[17:04] <Keybuk> pitti: weird keyboard bug today
[17:04] <Keybuk> gdm uses UK
[17:04] <Keybuk> I log in
[17:04] <Keybuk> my session uses USA
[17:04] <Keybuk> Keyboard -> Layouts says "USA"
[17:04] <Keybuk> but then when I click "Reset to Defaults", it goes back to "UK"
[17:05] <Keybuk> rebooting doesn't save UK, I'm back in USA again
[17:05] <pitti> Keybuk: bug 395103
[17:05] <pitti> unfortunate regression from new gdm
[17:05] <pitti> I never noticed, since I'm actually using US; I wonder how it worked for Seb
[17:05] <Keybuk> even weirder, it seems to affect the *console* layout too
[17:07] <Keybuk> if I login to single user mode, it's UK
[17:07] <Keybuk> once X has been started, it's USA
[17:08] <pitti> but in gdm itself it's okay?
[17:10] <Keybuk> yup
[17:13] <chrisccoulson> wierd
[17:13] <chrisccoulson> something loads /desktop/gnome/peripherals/keyboard/kbd/layouts with "us" when the session loads
[17:14] <chrisccoulson> it should be empty by default, which is why "reset to default" makes it work again
[17:15] <pitti> hm, not in /var/lib/gdm/.gconf.mandatory/%gconf-tree.xml
[17:15] <chrisccoulson> right, gdm is setting GDM_KEYBOARD_LAYOUT in the environment to "us", and presumably something in the session (g-s-d?) loads it in to gconf
[17:16] <pitti> ah, indeed
[17:16] <chrisccoulson> so, definately a GDM bug
[17:16] <pitti> right
[17:17] <pitti> you can't even set the keyboard layout in gdm
[17:17] <pitti> so as a bandaid we should just stop setting this
[17:18] <chrisccoulson> hmmmm, looking at the GDM source, it gets set to "us" as a fallback if there is no user specified or default layout
[17:18] <pitti> http://osdir.com/ml/ubuntu-desktop/2009-02/msg00010.html
[17:18] <pitti> I remember again
[17:19] <chrisccoulson> ah. we don't want to rely on HAL though do we?
[17:20] <pitti> we do
[17:20] <pitti> we configure it in one place, /etc/default/console-setup
[17:20] <pitti> from there it's spread to hal, then to X.org
[17:20] <pitti> IMHO we should just drop the default variable value
[17:21] <pitti> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=464825
[17:21] <pitti> they did something to g-s-d apparently
[17:22] <pitti> but not in current fedora, anyway
[17:47] <pitti> chrisccoulson: linked to upstream bug FYI, I'll look at this now
[17:47] <chrisccoulson> thanks
[17:47] <chrisccoulson> do you think gdm should not set the variable if the user sticks with the default layout?
[17:49] <pitti> chrisccoulson: yes, I DO
[17:50] <pitti> oops, shift bug
[17:50] <pitti> I followed up in the upstream report
[17:57] <chrisccoulson> pitti - thanks. just looking at your comment, and it is currently possible to set the keyboard layout in the new GDM (there's a selector at the bottom of the screen)
[17:57] <chrisccoulson> but even if you choose a layout, GDM sets the environment incorrectly
[17:57] <pitti> chrisccoulson: hm, that only says "language" for me
[17:58] <pitti> I don't see a keyboard selector at all
[17:58] <pitti> just a locale picker
[17:58] <chrisccoulson> ah
[17:58] <chrisccoulson> you're right
[17:58] <chrisccoulson> my bad ;)
[17:58] <chrisccoulson> i saw "English (United Kingdom)" and immediately thought "keyboard layout"
[17:58] <chrisccoulson> :-/
[17:59] <crevette> heya
[17:59]  * crevette just did the gdm upgrade
[17:59] <pitti> crevette: yes, your keyboard is broken
[18:00] <pitti> :)
[18:00] <crevette> pitti, not yet :)
[18:00] <pitti> oh, it should!
[18:00] <crevette> I didn't restarted gdm
[18:00] <chrisccoulson> it will be when you log out and back in again
[18:01] <chrisccoulson> presumably there is some way to have a layout switcher in GDM then?
[18:01] <crevette> I think this is expected I kicked out my session just right after the upgrade
[18:01] <pitti> crevette: no, not out of your session
[18:02] <pitti> it just gets locked
[18:02] <chrisccoulson> did you get kicked out or did a greeter load?
[18:02] <pitti> you can return to it
[18:02] <chrisccoulson> yeah, thats what happened to me
[18:02] <crevette> pitti, ah yeah the session was locked
[18:02] <chrisccoulson> that doesn't seem correct behaviour though does it?
[18:02] <pitti> it's not, of course
[18:02] <pitti> but allegedly hard to do otherwise
[18:04]  * pitti test-builds fixed gdm
[18:04] <crevette> pitti, you cooked a patch?
[18:04] <pitti> yes
[18:05] <crevette> nice
[18:05] <pitti> I'd like to get this fixed before the weekend
[18:05] <pitti> I hope it'll work, my wife will return home in about 30 mins :)
[18:06] <crevette> an entry in the menu system->administration for GDM is still showed, but no icon and nothing appears (I know there is no setup GUI for 2.26)
[18:06] <crevette> ahaha
[18:06] <chrisccoulson> crevette - do you have a custom launcher in ~/.local/share/applications?
[18:06] <pitti> hm, I don't have a gdm admin .desktop any more
[18:07] <crevette> chrisccoulson, no, that why it is odd
[18:07] <chrisccoulson> hmmm, strange
[18:07] <crevette> perhpas I should log out
[18:07] <crevette> but preferably the menu should be updated
[18:07] <chrisccoulson> yeah, sometimes the panel doesnt update
[18:09] <crevette> hlmm strange, gdm show me the user kerneloops
[18:09] <crevette> kernoops rather
[18:10] <chrisccoulson> about the launcher still showing in the menu, is suspect that is because the new gdm postinst does not do a call to update-desktop-database
[18:10] <crevette> chrisccoulson, yep I think the same
[18:12] <chrisccoulson> hmmm, there's no way to start a failsafe session from the new gdm
[18:12] <crevette> should I opena bug?
[18:12] <chrisccoulson> crevette - you could do
[18:19] <pitti> \o/ it works
[18:20] <chrisccoulson> nice one :)
[18:21] <pitti> uploaded
[18:29]  * crevette login out quickly before just to experience the bug :)
[18:33] <chrisccoulson> yay! crevette now has us layout ;)
[18:33] <crevette> Heah I have the bug
[18:33] <chrisccoulson> you should keep that layout now and type any remaining conversations pressing the keys you would normally press;)
[18:33] <crevette> hopefully I use US keyboard sometimes at work
[18:34] <crevette> so I can type US on FR  if I don4t look to ;y keyboard ;apping
[18:34] <chrisccoulson> lol
[18:34] <crevette> argh
[18:34] <crevette> shame
[18:36] <pitti> have a nice weekend everyone
[18:36]  * pitti waves
[18:36] <crevette> thx pitti for the fix
[18:36] <crevette> bye
[18:36] <pitti> you're welcome  :)
[18:36] <chrisccoulson> have a good weekend too pitti:)
[18:36] <pitti> we broke it, we fix it
[18:36] <crevette> I have another bug to sub;it for gd;
[18:36]  * pitti chuckles
[18:36] <crevette> and you run away
[18:36] <pitti> you'll so FAIL to type your password!
[18:37] <crevette> yeah
[18:38]  * crevette can't do a smiley
[18:38] <chrisccoulson> :)
[18:38] <crevette> :'/
[18:38] <chrisccoulson> i can ^^
[18:38] <geser> here is one: :)
[18:38] <chrisccoulson> :-P
[18:38] <chrisccoulson> haha. that works on IRC too
[18:38] <crevette> ;-)
[18:38] <crevette> yesssss
[18:39] <crevette> broken gdm is good to learn US keybaord mapping
[18:40]  * crevette wants to change the theme used for gdm
[18:40] <crevette> but anyway new gdm welcome screen is nice
[18:40] <chrisccoulson> crevette - thats a bit of a pain. it gets it from the gconf defaults at the moment
[18:41] <chrisccoulson> you can adjust the defaults
[18:41] <crevette> chrisccoulson, even the theme?
[18:41] <chrisccoulson> yeah. you just need to figure out the default gconf keys to set ;)
[18:41] <crevette> no more conf file in /etc/
[18:41] <chrisccoulson> i don't know if everything is configured in gconf now, but the theme definately is
[18:42] <chrisccoulson> it just uses standard gtk and metacity themes
[18:42] <chrisccoulson> you just need to figure out the correct keys to set ;)
[18:42] <chrisccoulson> you can also set the keys explicitly for the gdm user by using "sudo -u gdm gconftool-2 -s --type=<type> <key> <val>"
[18:43] <crevette> yeah I know gconf a little :)
[18:43] <chrisccoulson> cool
[18:43] <crevette> rah, no direct access to default configuration in gconf-editor
[18:44] <chrisccoulson> there should be :-/
[18:44] <chrisccoulson> anyway, i have to go and buy some food to cook for dinner this evening
[18:44] <crevette> I guess it "only" lack policykit stuff
[18:44]  * crevette is totally ignorant
[18:46] <crevette> so kernoops is listed a potential user in gdm greeter
[18:46] <crevette> s/a /as /
[19:16] <james_w> crevette: oops, would you file a bug on the kerneloops package to check that the user creation stuff is correct?
[19:46] <crevette> james_w, yes, sure, I wanted to investigate if it was gdm's fault or not :)
[19:46] <crevette> *first
[19:47] <crevette> but I failed :/
[19:48] <crevette> let's open a bug and we'll see
[19:49] <maxb> crevette: What's the uid of your kernoops user?
[19:49] <crevette> kernoops:x:112:65534:Kernel Oops Tracking Daemon,,,:/:/bin/false
[19:49] <maxb> hm. Seems to me that gdm shouldn't display uids in the system range
[19:51] <crevette> what is the range for real users?
[19:51] <maxb> 1000-29999
[19:54] <crevette> james_w, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/395281
[19:55] <james_w> thanks crevette
[19:55] <crevette> you're welcome
[19:55] <crevette> pleased to help
[19:57] <crevette> ah seb128 uploaded gnome-shell
[19:58] <crevette> he does some work before getting too drunk
[20:02] <james_w> heh
[20:03] <crevette> :-}
[20:13] <crevette> hmm the patch pitti didn't worked for me ...
[20:13] <crevette> still is en_US
[20:15]  * crevette will kill himself gdm to be sure
[20:19] <james_w> I can't see anything odd that kerneloops is doing
[20:20] <crevette> heya
[20:20] <crevette> still broken layout for me :/
[20:21] <chrisccoulson> james_w - someone else mentioned on here a couple of days ago about GDM showing a system user
[20:21] <chrisccoulson> cant remember who though
[20:21] <crevette> chrisccoulson, with 2.26?
[20:21] <chrisccoulson> crevette - is GDM_KEYBOARD_LAYOUT still set to "us" in your environment?
[20:21] <chrisccoulson> crevette - yes, with 2.26
[20:22] <crevette> I didn't use face browser on previous version, but perhaps the bug was already there
[20:22] <chrisccoulson> i don't think so. i use face browser on old GDM, and ive never seen that
[20:22] <chrisccoulson> oh
[20:22] <chrisccoulson> crevette left us again
[20:22] <chrisccoulson> crevette: (20:22:24) chrisccoulson: i don't think so. i use face browser on old GDM, and ive never seen that
[20:22] <chrisccoulson> just before you left;)
[20:23] <crevette> hey I was kicked out my session
[20:23] <crevette> wtf
[20:23] <crevette> +from
[20:24] <chrisccoulson> ";y" session?
[20:24] <chrisccoulson> ;)
[20:24] <crevette> YOU LIE I PRESS M
[20:24] <chrisccoulson> heh. it displays ";" here;)
[20:25] <chrisccoulson> honest!
[20:25] <crevette> ;-)
[20:25] <crevette> env|grep GDM
[20:25] <crevette> GDM_LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8
[20:25] <crevette> GDMSESSION=gnome
[20:26] <crevette> is it what you wanted?
[20:26] <crevette> I did'nt had time to read
[20:26] <chrisccoulson> it doesn't look like it's being set then
[20:26]  * crevette will check gnome keyboard setting 
[20:27] <chrisccoulson> yeah
[20:27] <crevette> the layout is USAm zhy
[20:27] <chrisccoulson> you'll need to restore the default settings if you havent already
[20:27] <crevette> rhaa
[20:27] <crevette> joy !!!!
[20:27] <crevette> I can type french
[20:27] <chrisccoulson> i wonder what happens if i set my keyboard layout to french?>
[20:28] <crevette> and now I'm used to press US and I do typo in the other way around
[20:28] <crevette> :)
[20:28] <crevette> but the session crashing is ... weird tbh
[20:29] <chrisccoulson> thqt is zhqt hqppens if i set ,y keyboqrd to french
[20:29] <chrisccoulson> lol
[20:29] <crevette> ahah, time for you to suffer
[20:29] <chrisccoulson> "that is what happens if i set my keyboard to french"
[20:30] <crevette> the fusa applet takes a lot of space
[20:30]  * crevette is in critizing mood
[20:33] <maxb> crevette: me too - I want the small icon style of display back
[20:33] <maxb> Listing the entire user friendly name is a huge waste of panel space
[20:33] <maxb> especially on a netbook screen
[20:50] <maxb> So, the new gdm... surely it isn't supposed to switch you out of your current X session when you install it?
[20:50] <maxb> Also, somewhat amusingly, on one of my machines it doesn't list any users to select from at all!
[20:58] <james_w> heh
[20:58] <james_w> I think I know what it is
[20:59] <james_w> gdm uses ck-history to query user activity
[20:59] <james_w> which presumably at some point includes kernoops
[21:00] <james_w> because that logs in and libpam-ck gives it a ck session
[21:00] <james_w> crevette: when did you install kerneloops?
[21:00] <walters> wha?  kernoops has a login session?
[21:01] <crevette> james_w, uhh, few months ago
[21:01] <james_w> k
[21:01] <crevette> james_w, I was looking in ck me too, but didn't manage to find the way gdm uses
[21:01] <crevette> .. to determine the list of system users
[21:02] <james_w> walters: I'm guessing that start-stop-daemon opens a session via pam
[21:02] <james_w> it's a bit of a pain for us with things like cron
[21:02] <james_w> not sure we've ever fixed that one
[21:03] <walters> well...there shouldn't be CK sessions for system uids imo
[21:03] <james_w> yeah
[21:03] <crevette> james_w, so you think gdm uses something like ck-history --frequent?
[21:03] <james_w> GDM just uses a hard-coded list of exclusions?!
[21:03] <walters> the historical inability of unix to have a useful distinction between real humans and random bits of the OS kind of sucks
[21:04] <james_w> crevette: exactly that
[21:04] <james_w>  command = g_strdup_printf ("ck-history --frequent --seat='%s' --session-type=''",
[21:04] <james_w>                                    seat_id);
[21:04] <crevette> ah ck doesn't expose dbus API?
[21:04] <james_w> walters: do you think root should get a session?
[21:05] <james_w> if the user logs in as root on the console then they presumably want one
[21:05] <crevette> james_w, nice shot
[21:05] <james_w> crevette: it does, but not for that
[21:05] <walters> james_w: if a human logs in with root's credentials, yes; otherwise no
[21:05] <james_w> not sure how easy it is to determine that at the PAM level, do you know?
[21:05] <crevette> ck-history reports 14947 login for root !?
[21:06] <walters> james_w: honestly i'd just do ck sessions for ssh and gdm, and ignore everything else for now...cron is kind of a ball of hair though.  i guess it's a discussion for the CK list
[21:07] <james_w> there's a ck list now?
[21:07] <james_w> it used to just say to use the HAL list
[21:07] <walters> oh, i don't know
[21:08] <james_w> and yeah, GDM seems to purely use a hardcoded exclude list
[21:08] <james_w> it should append to that as it parses passwd I think
[21:08] <walters> maybe we should use xdg-list to discuss useful stuff
[21:09] <crevette> walters, you're not at GUADEC?
[21:09] <walters> crevette: not this year =/
[21:12] <james_w> maxb: could you file a new bug for the case where the user is not shown?
[21:13] <james_w> maxb: also, what is the username of that user?
[21:33] <james_w> also, parsing /etc/passwd directly: not going to make some people happy
[21:34] <crevette> james_w, ther is nothing fix directly in ck-history?
[21:34] <crevette> james_w, there is nothing to fix directly in ck-history?
[21:35] <james_w> we need to tweak ck to avoid some users getting sessions in some circumstances
[21:35] <james_w> but I think that GDM should also make some changes
[21:51] <maxb> james_w: Update on that - users do appear in the list after 5 seconds or so
[21:51] <maxb> Also, ck-history was consuming 200% cpu for a while after login!?
[21:51] <james_w> ouch
[21:55]  * maxb updates bug
[22:13] <RainCT> Hey. Anyone bored wants to try out Zeitgeist (the engine) before I release 0.1?
[22:41] <kwah> hi all
[22:41] <kwah> may be it is not the right place to ask
[22:41] <SiDi> we won't know if you won't ask
[22:41] <kwah> but with whom may I discuss a proposed blueprint like https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/add-on-cd-composer
[22:42] <kwah> SiDi, you are fast typer :D
[22:42] <SiDi> Well, i was reading other channels
[22:43] <SiDi> but i actually type fast
[22:43] <kwah> is there a special channel to discuss blueprints?
[22:43] <SiDi> depends on what it is about
[22:43] <SiDi> if its about servers, then #ubuntu-server, and so on
[22:43] <kwah> I tried to ask at ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list, but got no feedback :(
[22:43] <SiDi> I don't *understand* this blueprint so i can't help
[22:44] <SiDi> it looks like an OEM thingy, right ?
[22:44] <kwah> nope... it is actually about distribution and first appearence of desktop
[22:44] <kwah> therefore I came here ;)
[22:44] <SiDi> What is this spec for ?
[22:45] <SiDi> Having a tool for creating a custom Ubuntu-based CD ?
[22:45] <kwah> for special purpose
[22:45] <SiDi> then the spec should write use cases where the current tools lack features, and list these features with solution proposals
[22:46] <kwah> get an official add-on disk extending appearance/functionality limited by CD size
[22:46] <SiDi> then i'm pretty sure it'll interest the people working on OEM (like cody-somerville)
[22:46] <kwah> so I did something wrong here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAddOnCDComposer ?
[22:47] <SiDi> huh
[22:47]  * SiDi didnt notice the wiki page
[22:47] <kwah> heh, the link is in the blueprint ;)
[22:48] <SiDi> get in touch with cody i guess :)
[22:50]  * kwah noted possible contact
[22:50] <kwah> SiDi, thanks
[22:53] <SiDi> np